Obama's Bipartisan Health Care Summit

[XGViper2gamer]

Nothing to do with wage vs inflation> fun and kicks here. He can afford to just kick back during the times that the iconomy is so low end. I can't. I'm on budget. buarack ohbuama gets paid more than $600,000 dollars a year. The pension the family will recieve is well over $7.29 for life. Yet of your tax dollars Regan only recieved less than 2.5 Million Dollars for his yearly pension. It's time we took the lavish income out of politics and real jobs was

[fireballmurder]

im never drinking pepsi again...why bother me here i dont wanna SEE THAT GARBAGE

[TheTesteccles]

Why would anyone expect that the Republicans would work together with the Democrats? They are the opposition! They are the team you are playing against! They are never going to intentionally help you score a goal.

[hadenufnow]

@sorti,

Look, Pie in the sky legislation has been shown by the Dem CBO Appointee of this administration to be unsustainable from the getgo on every level, and analysts have shown that the distorted figures to sell the proposed legislation are off by factors of 6x or more all across the board..

This means if you are presently unhappy you will be REALLY UNHAPPY...with what is proposed..

We are hoping to help prevent you from hurting yourself..

We say NO to blomadonotcare...

It be poison..

[hadenufnow]

@sorti,

You have totally misplaced information & you are all over the place with crazy ideas..

As for as car insurance, the analogy made by this admisistration was erred from every level from sunday..

If I KILL an old lady with my car DRUNK, MY LIcense is PULLED and MY Insurance Cancelled..

These actions protect your Premium from exploding to ten times or more....Using the DENY NOONE policy outlined by proposed legislation, YOU OWN those million dollar a YEAR health abusers & no protections

[rickpasorti]

You prefer gov. does not provide services or regulate anyone?

What about requiring everyone to have car insurance? Do you feel that was a bad idea as well. Does it step on your imaginary conservative toes?

Gov. freed the slaves, stopped child labor, forces employers to pay hourly employees overtime, provide SS and medicare for seniors (which they have already paid for all their lives, but we dipped into it spending for other things)

Used to be I didn't care much for Republicans. Now I hate them.

[jimpodi]

@rickpasorti car insurance is regulated by the states, not federal. if you don't drive, you are not mandated to purchase car insurance. obama wants to mandate health insurance on everyone, including people who don't want it. i'm not a repub btw, just pointing out what i see.

[ayethereztherub]

@jimpodi

Good call, and its a shame the dems don't see what's plain to the rest of us---you know, the working, the healthy, and the jobless who they are quietly asking to pay for the corporate handouts of this pseudo-reform.

[rickpasorti]

@jimpodi

Federal, state, county, community, whatever... so you don't drive, no need for car insurance.

Other forward reaching countries do at least attempt to place health insurance options somewhere safely above the clawing grasps for corporate profits by the insurance industry, because they choose to care about reserving a place for decency within their societies (an attempt to alleviate suffering of their men, women and children who are or WILL get sick -no option there - you simpleton).

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

In countries that have socialized medicine, they have much higher total taxes as a percent of income, fewer choices, and longer lines.

I will take freedom over living in a EU type country.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

The truth is, this is what YOU say, not what they actually say!

In Britian and Canada the wait is comparable to that in the US (difference is they don't have to lay out cash for the services). In Taiwan service is walk in and immediate, even for specialties. Something we have difficulty imagining here in the US. Japan and Switzerland health services are provided in a fraction of the time required here in the US. Overnight in hospital about $25+

The only lines are the ones you are using

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

I love it when people who are not trained in medicine or dental try to tell me what works.

It is laughable. Are you guys for real? If you are so smart go to medical school. or better yet go be a surgeon like me and tell me how good surgeries are from socialized EU countries are....they are barbaric.

If you want to reach in and get some more, just keep coming back. You are clueless.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

"Bribes and back room deals" are, have been and will be a staple of Washington politics. This is the way they get things done. I'm not sure it's such a "good thing" but seems to be the best they can do in effort to get any thing done since the beginning of this democratic republic.

Why can't you see these things? Your criticisms are always pointed at one side - like a crying child - when all the while this is, and has been, a rather common practice from both sides of the aisle.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

But Uncle Barry ran against all of that....you are aware social security is in the red under Uncle Barry? Why isn't anyone reporting this?

He is from IL....the worst off state financially...worse off than greece....and you clowns trust him with more of your life...

You are nuts...

Now run along and buy a clue...Wise up before it is too late.

[ayethereztherub]

@rickpasorti Oh boojwah... the usual liberal ressentiment and civil rights mythology. How exactly does health care compare to car insurance? The one is voluntary, the other coercive. Likewise, car insurance is progressively adjustable---guarding against the unsafe and the irresponsible.  Dems would be up in arms with fire and indignation if we did what really needs to be done, force unhealthy people to pay more.

[bkdmd]

But owning a car and driving is a choice.

I know of many people who don't have cars or car insurance.

This isn't a left vs right argument. This is the government and gov expansion against the people and the will of the people. Medicare and medicaid have more than $74 TRILLION in unfunded commitments. If the gov can't handle that political third rail or social security that is running deficit this year why would you want another political third rail the gov won't maintain as needed?

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

Your analogy about cars is a poor parallel. The will of the masses are influenced by the little they know and majority of what they hear. An avalanche of money spent by the insurance lobby should tell you something. (hello there?).

Look around at other leading countries of the world. They have a brain and a choice and they don't make money off the backs of denying their diseased sick and dying men, women and children.

In the long run the Rush-ites will be put aside, the good will prevail

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

This disaster called Obamacare is unconstitutional. We have a constitution.

Other countries are not run by our constitution. Obamacare is unconstitutional.

If socialism is soo good, why does obama, pelosi, and reid have to force it on us? If it is about making health care more affordable, why does Obamacare impose new taxes on HSA, insurers, pharmaceuticals, and medical devices? Because it is about control.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

With the barrage of time and verbiage you have to throw against this health care issue you begin to sound less like a doctor and more like a junior politician aficionado or insurance employee.

Your facts are total distorted untruths. Many caring doctors disagree with your reckless allegations.

You are a modern day "well poisoner and a barn burner."

Which insurance company do you work for?

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

Unless you can afford to support your own doctor (Cadillac health plan, provided for you at someone else's expense) health care in the US is inferior to that of some countries.

The constitution framework has lead to the drafting of legislation proven to be, some good, some bad. The constitution is basically a guideline. Look around in the world, some countries do quite well with their own version of "the constitution."

Always striving to do the right thing is most important ingredient.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

UK, Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, etc are all in the news for not being able to pay for their health care. Illinois and California are worse off than any of them.

Are you really this stupid? Seriously are you this stupid?

You are totally out of touch. Do you know how many founding documents some of the EU countries have had since we have had the constitution so don't lecture me like you actually have the first damn clue.

Run along skippy you are out of your league

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

There are clearly many medical professionals voicing opinions diametrically opposed with your viewpoint on this subject. So may I inquire, exactly "WHAT MAKES YOU THE WORLDS FOREMOST AUTHORITY ON THIS SUBJECT?"

Well educated people typically display more self respect than you have here.

Your grammar, and I quote: "or better yet go be a surgeon like me..." is that of an idiot.

In reply to your more personal comments I say you are a phony roll-playing wanta be, clearly less than for real

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

You have no clue. 80% of Doctors who practice for a living are against Obamacare. Only 17% of doctors are members of the AMA and most of them don't work and many never worked treating patients. They are academicians. They live in fantasy.

I am not the authority, but doctors who work for a living and not independently wealthy agree with me.

You are wrong. Obamacare will be a disaster and Aland Greenspan says it more likely the CBO will be wrong than right. Scary!

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

Our constitution says our rights come from god. It says our rights are lent to the government. Our rights don't come from government.

Did you know the Dims are talking about confiscating everyone's retirement accounts?

This isn't fiction. It is fact.

What about the new VAT being discussed? I told everyone HCR was going to lead to VAT....

I have a habit of being right.

You are backing the wrong pony.

Obamacare is a disaster.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

The only things your rantings here have proven is that you are an idiot. and a phony.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

LOL!! And you are clueless!

Go buy a clue!

Obamacare = disaster

Greenspan admits CBO estimates for Obamacare are more likely to be off and underestimated than they are to be accurate.

Uncle Barry is gambling with the future of the USA's future for his legacy.

You are nuts if you support Uncle Barry's Obamacare.

He wants to put us all on a plantation.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

You're just another unfortunate "Rush" to judgment racist simpleton, with a superiority complex agenda and not the I.Q. to support it.

Done wasting time my time with you.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

Oh you are still here pretending to have a clue.

Obamacare is the enemy. Greenspan says it is more probable the estimates from the CBO will be off significantly on Obamacare. I am no fan of Greenspan, but I think he has seen enough gov estimates to know they are usually off substantially!

How do you like me now?

The race card and propaganda is all your side has because you know you lost the public opinion debate.

Obamacare will fail and cost more!

Fool!

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

If you are no fan of Greenspan, why do you selectively quote him? It is under his watch as watchdog Chairman of the Federal Reserve "the meltdown" came to pass and no one person could be more responsible.

I can give you credit for one thing: "consistency"

Each and every one of your arguments are consistently typical "tea-party" crapola, muddied with contrived right wing lunatic talking points. You are poster-boy for pathetic dipshits, southern chapter.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

I am not a fan of greenspan, but do you think he is that stupid or do you think he did what he did on purpose? I say he did it all intentionally. Anyway he has seen government estimates enough to know they are more often wrong and underestimated than right or underestimated.

Now run along and get to Uncle Obama's plantation....2 gov run health care programs and together have unfunded commitments over $74 TRILLION....LOL and dumbasses like you want more???LOL Retards!

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

How can you defend any Part that is openly discussing confiscating everyones retirement accounts???

If gov including greenspan is so incompetent, how can you trust them with your health care?

Are you retarded?

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

If you want to be a slave for the government, fine. You can,but please please please don't force me into slavery.

If socialism is so great, why are the countries that are socialized have the fewest freedoms? Why are they forced into it? Why can't they own guns?

Why did obamcare have all of the bribes, back room deals, special carve outs, etc?

If it is about bringing health care costs down, why does it have new taxes on drugs, insurance, and medical devices and HSA? scram!

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

Our rights do come from government, you moron! Are your rights something you find laying on the ground while our for a walk?

If you had no country, no founding fathers and no constitution, what rights would you have? That being said, I'm not saying government is perfect, by nature it remains a work in progress, efficiency not size should be the target. This is just COMMON SENSE, a quality which seems to consistently evade that belabored space inside your cranium you are calling a brain

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

Our constitutions says our rights come from god and the only reason our government has any power is because we the people lend it to the government.

I thought you were done with me...why do you keep coming back for more pounding.

How can you or anyone else trust a Daley Chicago Machine Politician? They are all corrupt from Chicago.

Obamacare is unconstitutional and will cost more than advertised!

GUARANTEED and Greenspan backs that opinion...what backs yours?

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

66% of Americans say they are taxed enough.

Isn't it funny that 47% of USA household pay no income taxes?

Common sens says we can't afford more government when our government is borrowing 40% of what it is spending?

Do you just want to hand all of your money to the government?

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

"We don't like paying taxes". Is it with making childishly obvious arguments such as this that you have become convinced - as you previously stated - that you are always right?

In post meltdown, high unemployment recession economy - with more Americans earning less - no surprise if fewer owe taxes this year. Another obvious conclusion one needs no crystal ball to conclude.

R U "Handing all of YOUR money to the government" or just slinging your simple minded tea party propaganda again?

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

45% of the GDP is total government spending....25% of the GDP is entitlements....57% of Federal Spending is entitlements.

I think we have enough entitlements.

I do have a terrible habit of being right. The unfunded commitments of the USA entitlements exceed the net wealth of the USA corporations and citizens.

And your solution is in line with Uncle Barry's solution? More government, more spending, and higher taxes?

You are nuts.

But to each his own.... regards!

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

When to total government spending is more than the average worker makes in a year....how the fuck do you propose we pay for what government spending we are already doing? Fix that first then we can talk about doing more. The federal government is borrowing 40% of what it is spending. If we can't pay for what we are doing, how the fuck you you propose we do more?

You are nuts and obviously not real bright.

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

Holy crap! What is wrong with you people? Health care PACs have given more money to Dims in 2008 and 2010 by an average depending on specific sector of health care 60/40 across the board.

In the UK 1.6% of the population work for NHS and they still have lines and have governing rationing bodies.

If you want the good to prevail, our health care has to remain private. PERIOD! I am a doctor and see socialized medicine...it isn't worth much. The UK have the worst teeth.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

In Taiwan, Japan, Switzerland, Germany and Britain citizens interviewed are all more than pleased with the health services available to them. None of them wish to change to a system like that of the U.S.!

Savings are the predatory insurance companies virtually removed from the picture! Doctors and hospitals must charge less, MAKE LESS MONEY, however they work for profits.

If you are indeed a doctor in the U.S., profits influence any ridiculous rhetoric that spews from your greedy mouth.

[rickpasorti]

@bkdmd

with regard to having the worse teeth: a simple cleaning performed by a dentist about every 6 months - BEFORE the damage is done - is the larger part of anyone's dental problems (regardless which country they live in or which form of health care they have).

Which insurance company are you working for?

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

I am a dentist you dipshit. Dual trained in medicine and dentistry. Don't tell me how good socialized medicine is. You have no clue. The civilized world laughs at UK poor dental health conditions.

[rickpasorti]

@rickpasorti

I agree. Gov. works in one capacity or other as a necessary function for it's citizens. It must not become corrupted, which requires guidelines. The argument should not be with regard to the size of government, but instead with regard to the efficiency with which it provides those necessary services for its citizens, ie the things we wish we had for the taxes we must pay, and get little in return for.

I'm not sure where you decided my view was opposing with yours, but fair enough.

[jimpodi]

@rickpasorti so based on the history of govt programs so far like medicare or public housing, how do you judge the efficiency of govt so far?

[bkdmd]

@jimpodi

The government is just like GM, C, AIG, fannie, and freddie. It is too big to manage and too run efficiently.

In 2009 total gov spending was over 40% of our GDP.

[jimpodi]

@bkdmd yeah, that was the whole point of asking that question to rickpastori. the answer is that govt has failed miserably when it comes down to management and running things in a fiscally responsible and efficient manner. i can't really think of a govt entitlement program that has succeeded in terms of being fiscally responsible.

[bkdmd]

@jimpodi

or achieved the goals or even really ever been close to achieving the goals.

As government spending goes up as a percent of our GDP so will poverty. As government spending as a percent of our GDP goes up, it shrinks the middle class. Gov spending is war on the working middle class families.

I am glad there is at least one person somewhere that agrees with my outrage over expansion of government and more entitlements. TY Good Day!

[bkdmd]

@rickpasorti

in 2009 total government spending was over 40% of our total GDP.

entitlements are ~55% of the federal budget.

a gov big enough to do everything for you is big enough to take everything from you....i will take freedom over living on a government run plantation any day....i will take freedom over living in an EU socialized country any day.....

[hadenufnow]

Even the Democrats DO NOT WANT ANY version of blomacare as the FORCED MANDATE on the TAX & JAIL BILL will FORCE their OWN KIDS to be Health Care SLAVES for those donut eatin coffee snortin elderly...& those kids of theirs just cannot afford to take care of themselves, nevermind all those elderly that blomacare will be cutting to the tune of HALF TRILLION in MEDICARE which in itself is a LETHAL BLOW to families in America..

IT BE POISON...Nobody wants it...

[hadenufnow]

YOU DO NOT WANT a TAX & JAIL TROJAN HORSE MANDATE for HC...

1) Old people get porked HALF TRILLION on medicare and THAT IS LETHAL.

2) MIddle aged workers WILL BE IN A FULL SCALE WAR between UNION & Private Sectors for the unfair UNION GIVEAWAY on 40% Cadillac taxes paid by private sectors that DID NOT VOTE for OBAMA penalty.

3) YOUNG people DO NOT WANT to be FORCED to BUY since they are expected to PAY FOR EVERYBODY FOREVER! 51 people want it-blom & reid,pislosi, etc

Nobody wants it...

[dhinge]

Thank you Chip Reid for confusing choreography with stage setting; just because they're using an eye-level sitting area doesn't mean the summit was "highly choreographed".

[bigdogphoto]

"The government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops

moving, subsidize it." Ronald Reagan

Please stop trading my kid's liberty for more oppressive leftist policies that

increase government control and power. There are more patriots than useful idiots and we won't let that happen. Vote out all liberty stealing rogue politicians who don't respect the Constitution and individual citizen's rights.

[rickpasorti]

@bigdogphoto

Funny you mention Ronald Raegan talking about taxing people. You are aware he raised taxes? I voted for the bastard because while campaiging he promised to balance the budget. Within 8 years he tripled it (the research would take you about 5 min).

Why don't you take time to do a little research, do some reading, understand more about reality before making your thrilling speeches? At least you wouldn't be just bullshitting yourself, and trying to bullshit everyone else.

[bigdogphoto]

I don't need to research anything fool. The quote is accurate as is the source. The statement is appropriate for the current state of affairs. These tyrannical progressives are intent on robbing our liberty and property. If "useful idiots" are too naive to see what is occuring right in front of their adoring eyes, I can't help them. Here is another loose quote from Raegan for you to chew on..."it only takes one generation to lose your freedoms". Try to stop your knee jerk party line response

[toddolavi]

Obama want to create a "crisis"

There is no crisis.

If 30 million people are suffering so bad why is that none of them are watching youtube videos or even the summit itself.

The crisis is we need more doctors and nurses, that will lower costs undoubtably.

We then need tort reform which will lower costs undoubtably.

This is a dangerous administration.

Write your senators and congressmen and tell them what you think.

health care should be a state by state issue anyways

[ichikaba]

The rotton devil is not gonna push this garbage on the American people. No matter what happens he's a one-term teleprompter reading idiot!

[Silberdachs]

@ichikaba: ...says the GOP troll with an empty YouTube shill account.

pwnd

[beatshagendaz]

A lot of you who are complaining about reform most likely already have insurance. I'm putting myself through college via loans and health insurance is simply not affordable enough. I also have one kidney and am in dire need of some kind of coverage. Do I deserve to die because I have no money and am working at developing a way to become financially stable? I currently work two jobs and go to school full time. The rich are protesting my survival.

[hadenufnow]

Here's one single step to EMBARRASS AMERICA::

Put an idiot-log in da white house..

& ask him to give the americans an unsustainable debt an unsustainable tax & jail mandate on hc, and attempt to BILL the very people that have MAGNO_BUYERS_REMORSE with this present he bought for them with their own money,,,and then he asks why do everybody not like me no mo...??

Why the DEMS all doin that SCOTT BROWN SCATTER man?? Why that be man??

WEEZ gots lots o dat REDISTRIBUTIN to do man..It be chumpin

[hadenufnow]

DO YOU BE-lieve this dude??

EVERYBODY ""be-LEAVIN"" the dude now..

The DEMS ""be leavin"" the dude doin that famed dance craze made famous when the coak croaked in mass and the DEMS all did the ""SCOTT BROWN SCATTER""

Oh yeah,,,the Scott Brown ""SCATTER"" and they continue to keep --- BEE--LEAVIN the dude as we speak...

Hey man don't be leave me now man,, weez gots lots ""O"" REDISTRIBUTIN to do man..Don't be chump me out man...

[bigdogphoto]

10 Steps To Destroying American Society

Obama's Template

1 Rewrite the Constitution and break down its firewalls through Judicial and Bureaucratic fiat.

2 Concentrate all meaningful power in the Federal Government.

3 Suppress and Repress the Individual by attacking his Unalienable Rights through laws and constant torment.

4 Eliminate Private Property through Confiscatory Taxation and Regulation and wage constant war against Business Enterprises and Entrepreneurs.

[toddolavi]

Dead on.

We need to unify and have our own template....lets go back to the constitution and start talking about real civil rights.

I feel that even conservative tv and radio is not doing enough to get people fired up. What is the game plan?

[bigdogphoto]

5 Control Institutions of Education at all levels and turn them into Indoctrination Centers for the State.

6 Change the Citizenry by opening National Borders to virtually all comers and changing the qualifications for Citizenship to include mostly poor, uneducated illegal aliens.

7 Destroy the Private Financial Institutions that have funded the Greatest Production and Accumulation of Wealth for the Most People the World has ever known.

[AndrewDeLong]

#5 and #6 are especially idiotic on your behalf bigdogphoto. I mean, indoctrination centers? Really? where the hell is your proof of that?!

As for the citizenry thing

Take these people who are crossing our borders, who are willing to do the work that ACTUAL American citizens ARE NOT willing to do, and make them full citizens. The U.S was founded on the willingness to work. The people willing to do that are more American in that sense than a lot of the fat asses we have.

[bigdogphoto]

8 Destroy Capitalism and replace it with Redistributive Policies by Destroying

the currency and Replacing it with a new currency or Revaluing the old currency.

9 Eliminate American Sovereignty through arrangements and agreements with Foreign Countries and International Bureaucracies.

10 Use American Foreign Policy not to improve American Economic and National

Security, but to advance the Notion of One Government Globalism.-Levin

Vote all these radical progressives out before it's too late!

[ready2roll]

I haven't read it because your points are radical themselves..

btw, as an econ student, number 7 isn't true, accumulating wealth doesn't happen with contemporary capitalism, that's mercantilism which causes decreased specie exchange and inflation- no one does that anymore!

I'm not trying to be an ass, but you really don't know what you're talking about

[TheFreebordman]

i'm not a obama fan at all, and agree just like bleazy225 below me, but we can point fingers at the goverment but there only half the proplem people who are not insured and are not working should grow up get a job and stop leaching the from the government i think we all know someone in our lives with no job and not looking for another what happened to the hard working american? not anymore

[ready2roll]

easy for you to say, you're probably not one of them

[Bleazy225]

This summit showed the nation what alot of us have always known. Obama is an immature, vendictive, insecure little man that is about as unpresidential and unbecoming as one can get. He has NO leadership qualities whatsoever, not only that he has a severe God complex. His defeat in 2012 will be by one of the biggest landslides in US history. And it will have nothing to do with his race although that is what the lame ass media will say. Check this comment in 2012, i am a prophet.

[ready2roll]

My god, really?

[xiola6969]

Obama strongly suggested that Democrats will try to pass a sweeping overhaul without GOP support, by using controversial Senate budget rules that would disallow filibusters. And then, he said, this fall's elections would write the verdict on who was right.

[xiola6969]

So obama is going to commit political suicide for the democrat in nov 2010. Great plan do you work for the gop are you not in reality you lost Massachusetts the bluest state in our country to a republican on platform he would stop this bill and your going to push it though anyway ? the American people have spoken the democrats are being way to pushy on this topic to the point they needs to shut the fuck up.

[WilliamHCarney]

People are jumping on the band wagon, and reading into the Brown election too much. Brown won, because Coakley's attitude to not campaign for over a month straight, and not shaking hands with the public, because she said it's too cold outside. As far as the Governor races. I've spoke to many people, and they, like myself, hardly votes for Governors anyway.

November is still a ways away, and so is 2012.

[dantheleo]

The only person tested in this Summit was obama and he didn't do well at all. He could of at least read his bill and knew what was in it before the Summit but after all the stuttering and stammering it was clear he did not!

[WilliamHCarney]

Didn't do well. That's weird, because some people who I've randomly spoke with thought other wise, and some were Republicans here in Nevada.

[industrialhemprocks]

Rick Simpsons's "Hemp Oil"

[rufolo9]

davidcole100 - You are so right.

Democrats trying to use the old "we are closer than we may have thought" line to ready their nuclear option (reconciliation).

Republicans trying to do everything possible to protect their insurance buddies - disgraceful!!! They are all the same.

[davidcole100]

we are watching traitors in action, all of them

[barbnjeff]

Good luck...