ok so I had a question for ya.. here goes. I liked your ion replacement method to ppt. out the KClO4, and it got me thinking of some other salts. then I realized I had bought a cheap bag of sodium nitrite a while back. can the NaNO2 be worked up in the same manner to NaNO3? or does this only work with oxychlorides? that would be nice if it worked and was quick. like the -ClO3 ---> -ClO4 conversion. maybe take a stab at that. I still need electrodes :(
@ytmachx ya I guess I worded that odd. but I just meant that thinking about other salts reminded me I owned NaNO2 already, and I was wondering If I could get it to oxidize to NaNO3 by electrolysis. not in any way talking about perchlorates or an ion replacement, sorry
how can i eliminate any chlorate and leave perchlorate i just wanna make ammonium perchlorate
can i just use con. h2so4 or there is a better way?
and why do u use sodium chloride then make double replacement reaction naclo3 to kclo3 ? i mean y dont u use kcl directly is it faster or something to use nacl instead kcl as electrolyte ?
sorry im no chemist so im asking these questions :D
@Real0Nighto If you will recall, in the "Potassium Chlorate Electrolysis" video, where I used KCL, the KCIO3 falls out of solution because of its relative insolubility, preventing further electrolysis. Therefore, if you intend an electrolysis of KCIO4 from salt, you must start with NaCl. Chlorate can be destroyed by lowering the pH to about 1or 2 with HCI and then boiling off the chlorine dioxide, but his is dangerous and should not be attempted.
@ytmachx hmmmm i forgot asking what will happen if excess hcl is added will it affect perchlorate (i will recrystallize nh3clo4 and wash it, is this enough to eliminate remaining hcl)
i just wanna know enough about what im doing for i dont wanna damage anything lol
@ytmachx i gave it a try this morning , methylene blue turns totally purple like yours , when i treat with hcl , boil , test , no purple just blue , when i neutralize with naoh i get magenta , but it turns blue again by adding kcl
i recrystallize kclo4 and test , i get blue as no perchlorate exist , by drying the crystals , mixing with dextrin , it ignites fast by h2so4 , i donno what the hell is goin on , first perchlorate next chlorate , i think hcl turns clo4 into clo3 XD
@Real0Nighto The difference is deep blue or violet. The electrolyte solution will bleach out the color of the blue or violet color of the methylene blue in a few minutes, so check quickly. You must correct the pH after treating with HCI. You should be 7-8 when you test.
@ytmachx i know that it bleach in a few minutes , the colors i told u i got were just after dropping methylene ok then , why did it ignite with h2so4 after drying the crystals and mix with dextrin (does PH play any rule before drying the crystals?)
@Dornier335A Yes you can use KNO3 to precipitate the perchlorate. Graphite is not suitible to make perchlorates. But you can make chlorate with graphite, clean it and make perchlorate with an Pt wire as anode
Verry nice setup. Cover your electrodes at the top with an inert polymer to prevent corrosion. Where to buy these platiniced electrode? Do you add acid during electrolyce?
@BMan0815 The upper section of the rod on the stainless electrode is covered. I do not correct the pH during the electrolysis. You can get the platinum electrode at Anomet.
In your video description you said that you make a solution of 2 liters of water and 2lbs of KCL, isn't that solution over saturated?
I have a question about when you make K chlorate, have you ever noticed that if you boil your KCL solution for a long time it becomes "unmixed" like if the phisical properties of the kcl are afected and in gets unmixed from the water?
@antovasa A boiling solution can hold more KCI, however, if it is over saturated, the excess just falls to the bottom of the beaker. I haven't noticed the "unmixed" condition. My solution is just slightly cloudy. "RT" is room temperature.
Hi man, fantastic video, i have a question: When you prepare the KCL solution and pour in the electrolyte, the KCL solution is cold or hot/boiling? I'm making some chlorate using a 16A ATX power supply, but when i measure the amps the cell kis only using 4.5 amps. I'm using TI cathode PT anode. How can i increase the amps, can you sell me a MOT power supply like yours? Thanks in advance for your answer
@antovasa Thanks! and Yes, the solutions are both boiling hot. You can,however, combine a RT solution of NaCIO3/4 with boiling KCI.(The KCI solution is hot to maximize the saturation) The result is a much more dramatic conversion, as it all combines at once and falls to the bottom.
There are two ways of obtaining more current flow; Raise the input voltage or move the electrodes closer together.
@nanus102000 A current of 2Ah is needed to convert .75g of sodium chloride to sodium chlorate at 100% efficiency. (You will have to fill in the blanks; i.e., dissolved chloride, amp-hours, efficiency, etc.)
So, 100g of chloride will require approx. 270Ah at 100% efficiency to produce 132g of chlorate. At a current of 10A, you should need about 27 hours
Converting sodium chlorate to perchlorate requires .5Ah per gram.
For example; At 100% efficiency,100g NaCIO3 requires 50Ah to convert to NaCIO4
Hey ytmachx, one question, when you boil the electrolyte to destroy the hipochlorite doesn't this create even more sodium chlorate and sodium chloride contaminants? because 3NaClO -> 2NaCl + NaClO3
I will tell you what! If you have a transformer that you can't take the bobbin out of...it is almost near impossible to rewind it with #4! Might have had better luck if I got battery cable #4 instead of home wiring #4!
@Super73VW Sometimes you will find the wire is rectangle or square in shape and is referred to as a twin or square wire. For example; I have some rectangle #7 twin that is very close to a #4
Are you using that 2nd MOT as the Inductor for your Pi Filter? Any idea how many Henry's? Or does the inductance matter just as long as it is there, and enough to react with the AC?
@Super73VW The inductor was wound on a core that I bought from a transformer company. I didn't measure the inductance, but I'm sure that it has a good amount as it also has a good size gap as well. The bobbin is full of 10gauge wire. The inductance is needed to smooth the pulsed dc current. Using the oscilloscope, I adjusted the capacitance of the filter, under load, until I had a very low ripple, <1/10th volt. The electrolysis works best with pure dc.
@ytmachx I know my capacitance value will be different than yours, but what did you end up with for both caps to get your ripple current to that point?
I have a 400W Hg lamp ballast I will try as an inductor and a 400V AC 24uF cap as one of my caps. Don't have a scope yet, so it will be hard for me to setup my Pi filter without knowing what my inductance is on my ballast.
Is a titanium cathode better than a stainless steel because when I use stainless steel the stainless steel corrodes and make a lot of iron oxide contaminant.
Btw why doesn't your stainless steel mesh not contaminate your solution and make it go green or maybe even black.
That will work fine for the sodium chlorate but the perchlorate may be a problem. Just cut off the mesh from a stainless steel kitchen strainer for the cathode.
Bare titanium corrodes and becomes surface passivated very quickly so it won't work as an anode. If titanium were platinum clad over its surface it would probably work fine. The rod on my anode is platinum clad titanium and it still looks very good.
I haven't potassium chloride, it so dificult to obtain it here, in brazil... how may I crystalize the chlorate only using sodium chloride? or other thing similar? thnaks!
@ytmachx Hey again. I tried 2 carbon rods and turned out to be a complete mess. The solution is dirty. How come yours is so clean? Is it because the anode? Cathode? Thanks
@SuperLorant Stainless steel screen,(mesh), works well, as a cathode as long as it is energized. Use the carbon rod for the anode. I have a video in my list using stainless steel and a carbon rod.
you can use quantitative analysis to test for kclo3, just weigh your kclo4 ,heat to decomposition and weight the remains. do a little math and you can tell if your on or not!
@TakronRust Starting with KCL will first make KCLO3, which is virtually insoluble even in a hot solution. The KCLO3 would have to stay in solution for further electrolysis to become KCLO4, an even less soluble material. In my other videos where I start with KCL, you can see the KCLO3 drop out of solution due to relative insolubility.
basically if I understand running the cell for enough time ALL of the chlorate will be converted to perchlorate? since in your video you didn't show that there were traces of chorate
@Aranwu I don't believe that conversion would be 100%, but it would be close. Perchlorate was easier to test for. Testing for trace amounts of chlorate is more complicated.
@hexamine2012 Methylene blue is intensely blue. When it comes in contact with perchlorate it becomes purple/ violet. The electrolysis was continued after the first indication of perchlorate to make sure that there was a sufficient amount of conversion. ( To completely convert all of the chlorate,I should have run 150 hours more)
is there another way to determine if it is perchlorate? because i dont have methylene blue. i know if you melt potassium chlorate in a test tube and then drop in a bit of sulfur, it will violently react and burn. so i can do this with the finished product and if nothing happens then its perchlorate am i right?
@ytmachx i have with KClO3 i made from that video. and it worked. im guessing KClO4 wont burn right? i guess i can just try it and see how it goes. but i need to let my cell finish the run its on now. its my 4th run using direct conversion. my next run is perchlorate with sodium chloride instead of KCl. ill let you know how it goes. ill probably start in about 3-5 days.
@GunPhysics I can't tell the difference, they both go bang really well, but the perchlorate is supposed to be more stable, and for that reason it is used in pyrotechnics. Also, I think, some colors of fireworks,(like blue), don't work well with chlorate but with perchlorate they do.
@GunPhysicschlorates are really dangerous with sulfur and phosphorous. but perchlorates are relatively safe around them. perchlorates are much safer in the use of pyrotechnics. i prefer perchlorates over chlorates by a long shot.
I made two assumptions when i made my calculation: Assumption 1: max yeild of KClO4 was 19.51 mol (from the moles of NaCl). Assumption 2: All of the NaCl(aq) was electrolysized during the process. If the assumptions are false then sorry bout dat.
I calculated your % yeild to be 36.2 %. maybe if the waste chlorine was bubbled through another KOH solution you could salvage some waste. great set up though
Very nice looks like a great yield did you do any efficiency calculations? Also dont quote me on this but I believe the precipitation of potassium perchlorate is exothermic so I would be carful using hot solutions. wow is that pure Pt mesh!!!???.
Yes, I have also heard that about the exothermic nature of the metathesis. I have clearly demonstrated the metathesis. What did you see? The anode is not solid platinum.
Nice video. I'm drawn like a fly to it. :). You could post this over and over and I would still love them.
Cathode is that platinum side? Should last very long.
How good is a wielding machine for this use? What type is the best? If not why?
To everyone: Has any of you tried rocket propellant of sodium/potassium perchlorate/sugar? Would be very very interested to hear about it. Been searching for a video about it for a very long time. Dyng to see one.
Anode (+), is platinum side. Welding machines usually have too high voltage for the cell. I suppose you could experiment with it though. I think there are some videos of the chlorate and sugar.
Thanks for the quick reply. About the rocket propellant videos that you mention I mostly see the rocket candy type propellant. Then there is a couple of ammonium perchlorate videos which is not so interesting because this can't be easily done at home and ingredients are probably hard to get.
@nattsurfaren Black powder is better for rocket fuel. Place a normal firecracker (aluminum/perchlorate mix) in a vice, tighten it down well and tap the vice with a small hammer, it will go off, just like it would pressing a rocket motor. Sugar contains sulphur, which is bad around chlorate. Even the sulphur in cannon fuze can sensitize chlorate after a while. Watch heating kclO3 or kclO4 in a test tube, glass dosent show up on xray very well. Use a watch glass.
@Gregkret Sugar or sucrose contains NO sulfur (molecular formula C12 H22 O11). Perchlorate is the better fuel rocket engines. The space shuttle doesn't use black powder, it uses ammonium perchlorate and aluminum.
@ytmachx Thats true, what was I thinking, no sulphur in sugar. The message I responded to sounded like he was talking about firework type rocket motors, (pressed or hammered over a form) as to industrial large scale motors like the shuttle that are cast from a slurry. Sorry.
Nice video! If you stir the mix while your doing electrolysis you'll produce less Cl2 gas and improve your perchlorate yield. I scrub the exhaust gases coming from my cell with NaOH(aq) and this produces NaOCl(aq), leaving pure H2 gas. 5*
yeah, you have some fancy lad equipment. i use to have a few beakers until i broke them with heating them too fast with a torch. i should hav learned from the first time. thats is why i bought a hot plate. i got a new package of science apparell coming in soon so i can do this synthe. i dug out my old charger and cleaned it. i started this synthe. already and have about 11 hours in on the electolysis. even though i vented it, i can smell a strong odor of chlorine gas. im going to move it outside
I've broken 4 2L beakers so far. The thinner beakers just break sometimes when I'm heating them,even on a hot plate. I really hate it when they break when they're full :{
i see. i buy from FlinnScientific. they sell all types of chemicals, beakers, flasks, and other science apparel. also they have kits to perform the experiments that are already set up. but they only ship to schools. luckily, my dad works at ISU. there prices are amazing. their 2l beakers are pretty good. the best ive seen.
I would guess that the perc in the video is better than 80%, but it is difficult to say for sure how pure it is. There are several ways to destroy the chlorate before metathesis. A significant lowering of the pH will do the trick. I think the perchloric acid or HCL should do the job nicely.
well if it was bubbled through water then the hydrogen and chlorine would go into, only chlorine would dissolve making HCl.. just it doesnt get in contact with sunlight, the chlorine/hydrogen.. (: could be cool stuff to make.. ^^ but i guess ill buy as that stuff takes up alot of space, and it needs to be running too.. and its noisy.. all gotta be done ninja style.. package style (;
to get neutral ofc? :P hmm.. sodium chloride.. cool :P if i used potassium hydroxide (if i had any) i would get potassium chloride?? o: completely re-usable system, and it gives hydrogen for fun :P
ok so I had a question for ya.. here goes. I liked your ion replacement method to ppt. out the KClO4, and it got me thinking of some other salts. then I realized I had bought a cheap bag of sodium nitrite a while back. can the NaNO2 be worked up in the same manner to NaNO3? or does this only work with oxychlorides? that would be nice if it worked and was quick. like the -ClO3 ---> -ClO4 conversion. maybe take a stab at that. I still need electrodes :(
demnlordd666 3 weeks ago
@demnlordd666 I don't think that it will work in place of the Na and K salts.
ytmachx 2 weeks ago
@ytmachx ya I guess I worded that odd. but I just meant that thinking about other salts reminded me I owned NaNO2 already, and I was wondering If I could get it to oxidize to NaNO3 by electrolysis. not in any way talking about perchlorates or an ion replacement, sorry
demnlordd666 2 weeks ago
hey is this methylene blue the same found at aquarium fish store to cure fungal infections ?
i need answer as soon as u can cuz i cant find it here except this blue solution i use for my fish tank
thx
Real0Nighto 1 month ago
@Real0Nighto I think that it probably is.
ytmachx 1 month ago
@ytmachx thx but i have another question
how can i eliminate any chlorate and leave perchlorate i just wanna make ammonium perchlorate
can i just use con. h2so4 or there is a better way?
and why do u use sodium chloride then make double replacement reaction naclo3 to kclo3 ? i mean y dont u use kcl directly is it faster or something to use nacl instead kcl as electrolyte ?
sorry im no chemist so im asking these questions :D
thx
Real0Nighto 1 month ago
@Real0Nighto If you will recall, in the "Potassium Chlorate Electrolysis" video, where I used KCL, the KCIO3 falls out of solution because of its relative insolubility, preventing further electrolysis. Therefore, if you intend an electrolysis of KCIO4 from salt, you must start with NaCl. Chlorate can be destroyed by lowering the pH to about 1or 2 with HCI and then boiling off the chlorine dioxide, but his is dangerous and should not be attempted.
ytmachx 4 weeks ago
@ytmachx i can take care when evaporating clo2 like performing outside with wind blown from my back
but if i used hcl will it eliminate all chlorates from the solution to be used in ammonium double replacement reaction to convert naclo4 to nh3clo4
last answer please i need ammonium perchlorate its urgent lol
and there is another question i searched everywhere but i didnt find answer
will perchlorate decomposes if electrolyzed more
i appreciate your longanimity -_-
Real0Nighto 4 weeks ago
@ytmachx hmmmm i forgot asking what will happen if excess hcl is added will it affect perchlorate (i will recrystallize nh3clo4 and wash it, is this enough to eliminate remaining hcl)
i just wanna know enough about what im doing for i dont wanna damage anything lol
Real0Nighto 4 weeks ago
@ytmachx i gave it a try this morning , methylene blue turns totally purple like yours , when i treat with hcl , boil , test , no purple just blue , when i neutralize with naoh i get magenta , but it turns blue again by adding kcl
i recrystallize kclo4 and test , i get blue as no perchlorate exist , by drying the crystals , mixing with dextrin , it ignites fast by h2so4 , i donno what the hell is goin on , first perchlorate next chlorate , i think hcl turns clo4 into clo3 XD
Real0Nighto 4 weeks ago
@ytmachx sorry i meant bluish violet not magenta
Real0Nighto 4 weeks ago
@Real0Nighto The difference is deep blue or violet. The electrolyte solution will bleach out the color of the blue or violet color of the methylene blue in a few minutes, so check quickly. You must correct the pH after treating with HCI. You should be 7-8 when you test.
ytmachx 3 weeks ago
@ytmachx i know that it bleach in a few minutes , the colors i told u i got were just after dropping methylene ok then , why did it ignite with h2so4 after drying the crystals and mix with dextrin (does PH play any rule before drying the crystals?)
Real0Nighto 3 weeks ago
@Dornier335A Yes you can use KNO3 to precipitate the perchlorate. Graphite is not suitible to make perchlorates. But you can make chlorate with graphite, clean it and make perchlorate with an Pt wire as anode
BMan0815 1 month ago
Verry nice setup. Cover your electrodes at the top with an inert polymer to prevent corrosion. Where to buy these platiniced electrode? Do you add acid during electrolyce?
BMan0815 1 month ago
@BMan0815 The upper section of the rod on the stainless electrode is covered. I do not correct the pH during the electrolysis. You can get the platinum electrode at Anomet.
ytmachx 1 month ago
very nice setup!, I miss making stuff like this!
Aussie50 1 month ago
@Aussie50 Thanks mate!
ytmachx 1 month ago
where get electrodes?
mcwario13 2 months ago
@mcwario13 Google "Anomet"
ytmachx 2 months ago
I really really do envy your kit.
bamboo4tameshigiri 2 months ago
Hello I have a small question for you. Where do you get the potassium perchlorate cell with the anodes. Do you get an address for me. Thank ANDREAS
aatze1978 4 months ago
@aatze1978 Please read the comments. Thanks
ytmachx 4 months ago
Is it possible to use graphite electrodes instead of platinum? Or will it stop when it reaches chlorate?
Another question, is it possible to use KNO3 instead of KCl? NaNO3 is much more soluble than NaCl.
Dornier335A 4 months ago
@Dornier335A Yes, maybe ,no
ytmachx 4 months ago
I have another three questions:
In your video description you said that you make a solution of 2 liters of water and 2lbs of KCL, isn't that solution over saturated?
I have a question about when you make K chlorate, have you ever noticed that if you boil your KCL solution for a long time it becomes "unmixed" like if the phisical properties of the kcl are afected and in gets unmixed from the water?
What do you mean for a " RT " solution of NaCIO4
Thanks in advance for your comments
antovasa 7 months ago
@antovasa A boiling solution can hold more KCI, however, if it is over saturated, the excess just falls to the bottom of the beaker. I haven't noticed the "unmixed" condition. My solution is just slightly cloudy. "RT" is room temperature.
ytmachx 7 months ago
Hi man, fantastic video, i have a question: When you prepare the KCL solution and pour in the electrolyte, the KCL solution is cold or hot/boiling? I'm making some chlorate using a 16A ATX power supply, but when i measure the amps the cell kis only using 4.5 amps. I'm using TI cathode PT anode. How can i increase the amps, can you sell me a MOT power supply like yours? Thanks in advance for your answer
antovasa 7 months ago
@antovasa Thanks! and Yes, the solutions are both boiling hot. You can,however, combine a RT solution of NaCIO3/4 with boiling KCI.(The KCI solution is hot to maximize the saturation) The result is a much more dramatic conversion, as it all combines at once and falls to the bottom.
There are two ways of obtaining more current flow; Raise the input voltage or move the electrodes closer together.
ytmachx 7 months ago
How do you know how long it must stand on?
Can you show us the math for both chlorat and perchlorat?
nanus102000 7 months ago
@nanus102000 A current of 2Ah is needed to convert .75g of sodium chloride to sodium chlorate at 100% efficiency. (You will have to fill in the blanks; i.e., dissolved chloride, amp-hours, efficiency, etc.)
So, 100g of chloride will require approx. 270Ah at 100% efficiency to produce 132g of chlorate. At a current of 10A, you should need about 27 hours
Converting sodium chlorate to perchlorate requires .5Ah per gram.
For example; At 100% efficiency,100g NaCIO3 requires 50Ah to convert to NaCIO4
ytmachx 7 months ago
@ytmachx I am running a 250 g batch right now with 20 A so it will take a day if my diodes does not melt.
Have you tried to make a Birkeland-Eyde reactor for saltpeter acid? Then u can use thr remaning 4 diodes. :)
nanus102000 7 months ago
@nanus102000 250g will take at least 2 days (49 hours).
Btw,those are single 85 amp diodes.
ytmachx 7 months ago
only platinium anode and stainless cathode? :/
hexamine2012 7 months ago
@hexamine2012 That is what is required for best performance. :}
ytmachx 7 months ago
5:20 looks like it's snowing :)
gogo311 8 months ago
Hey ytmachx, one question, when you boil the electrolyte to destroy the hipochlorite doesn't this create even more sodium chlorate and sodium chloride contaminants? because 3NaClO -> 2NaCl + NaClO3
46564364 8 months ago
@46564364 No,
You will have no problem if you boil the electrolyte in a glass container. I have clearly demonstrated the process.
ytmachx 8 months ago
I will tell you what! If you have a transformer that you can't take the bobbin out of...it is almost near impossible to rewind it with #4! Might have had better luck if I got battery cable #4 instead of home wiring #4!
Super73VW 9 months ago
@Super73VW #4 magnet wire is soft copper and not difficult to wind on a bobbin. I can usually do it by hand. You probably only need 10-20 turns
ytmachx 9 months ago
@ytmachx Yeah that is how many turns I am trying to go for. trying to source out some #4 or #6, but the largest I can find is #10.
I have it at 5.4V ac with no load. and my transformer was a 720VA before I started rewinding it.
Super73VW 9 months ago
@Super73VW Sometimes you will find the wire is rectangle or square in shape and is referred to as a twin or square wire. For example; I have some rectangle #7 twin that is very close to a #4
ytmachx 9 months ago
Are you using that 2nd MOT as the Inductor for your Pi Filter? Any idea how many Henry's? Or does the inductance matter just as long as it is there, and enough to react with the AC?
Super73VW 9 months ago
@Super73VW The inductor was wound on a core that I bought from a transformer company. I didn't measure the inductance, but I'm sure that it has a good amount as it also has a good size gap as well. The bobbin is full of 10gauge wire. The inductance is needed to smooth the pulsed dc current. Using the oscilloscope, I adjusted the capacitance of the filter, under load, until I had a very low ripple, <1/10th volt. The electrolysis works best with pure dc.
ytmachx 9 months ago
@ytmachx I know my capacitance value will be different than yours, but what did you end up with for both caps to get your ripple current to that point?
I have a 400W Hg lamp ballast I will try as an inductor and a 400V AC 24uF cap as one of my caps. Don't have a scope yet, so it will be hard for me to setup my Pi filter without knowing what my inductance is on my ballast.
Super73VW 9 months ago
@Super73VW 44,000uf on one side and 82,000uf on the other.
ytmachx 9 months ago
I dont have a power supply that gives an output like yours... are there any conditions for electrolysis ? and isnt Sodium Perchlorate highly toxic ?
samanthms123 10 months ago
@samanthms123 I don't think that it is highly toxic, but I certainly wouldn't ingest any of it.
ytmachx 10 months ago
Is a titanium cathode better than a stainless steel because when I use stainless steel the stainless steel corrodes and make a lot of iron oxide contaminant.
Btw why doesn't your stainless steel mesh not contaminate your solution and make it go green or maybe even black.
Sb01343 11 months ago
@Sb01343 The titanium cathode is about the best you can get.
I clearly show in the videos how the solution looks, during and after electrolysis.
I only get a slight yellowing of the solution. Not all stainless steel,(18/8), is the same.
ytmachx 11 months ago
@TraktorKontrol10 Read the comments.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@TraktorKontrol10 You can get the anode from Anomet. Make your own cathode from stainless.
ytmachx 1 year ago
3:14 cheers !!
MrAirshot 1 year ago
What are those electrolysis chambers/cells called?
and where could I purchase one?
Great Video BTW
REPTANN 1 year ago
@REPTANN It is called a "reaction vessel" and I got it on Ebay.
ytmachx 1 year ago
Very impressive sir
TNF4590 1 year ago
@TNF4590 Thanks!
ytmachx 1 year ago
i have a titanium mmo mash.
can i use it as an anode with a stainless steel rod as a cathod for making NaClo4 from salt and then Kclo4 form it?
efaigin 1 year ago
@efaigin
That will work fine for the sodium chlorate but the perchlorate may be a problem. Just cut off the mesh from a stainless steel kitchen strainer for the cathode.
מאחל לך מזל טוב
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx
ok so you say that for the perchlorate i just need to get a platinum clad anode.
will platinum clad titnium do?
i couldent find any nibium clad platinum on the net that is not whole sale or much too big for me...
מזל טוב על מה? האנודה?
efaigin 1 year ago
@ytmachx
ok you say i need platinum anode for perchlorate
can it be titanium based or only nibium will do??
על מה מזל טוב גבר?
efaigin 1 year ago
@efaigin Sorry about the failed translation.
Bare titanium corrodes and becomes surface passivated very quickly so it won't work as an anode. If titanium were platinum clad over its surface it would probably work fine. The rod on my anode is platinum clad titanium and it still looks very good.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx
do you know the thickness of the platinum clad over the titanium? i need to know that for my order...
thanx again
efaigin 1 year ago
@efaigin The platinum is 100 microinches or 2.54 um (microns) in thickness.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx
ok
and do you know whats the strand wire size , LWD and SWD?
efaigin 1 year ago
@efaigin You need to check your "personal messages" at your "inbox"
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx
"מאחל לך מזל טוב" = Congratulations ..you wanted to wish me good luck but the google translator is a bit dumb
thanx very much any way
efaigin 1 year ago
@efaigin I used " Linguanaut . com"
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx
all the same...
do you know whats the thickness of the platinum on your anode by any chance??
efaigin 1 year ago
I haven't potassium chloride, it so dificult to obtain it here, in brazil... how may I crystalize the chlorate only using sodium chloride? or other thing similar? thnaks!
tiagonyl 1 year ago
was that a modded microwave transformer
Digadogup 1 year ago
@Digadogup Yes, of course.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx Hey again. I tried 2 carbon rods and turned out to be a complete mess. The solution is dirty. How come yours is so clean? Is it because the anode? Cathode? Thanks
SuperLorant 1 year ago
@SuperLorant I'm not using a carbon rod. Use only one carbon rod for the anode.
Read all the comments
ytmachx 1 year ago
@SuperLorant I'm not using a carbon rod. Use only one carbon rod for the anode.
Read all the comments
ytmachx 1 year ago
@Digadogup People mentioned stainless mesh. Will stainless work or not? Also what about anode and cathode both carbon rods? Would that work?
If people dont have money to buy platinum and titanium, what other options do we have?
Thanks
SuperLorant 1 year ago
@SuperLorant Stainless steel screen,(mesh), works well, as a cathode as long as it is energized. Use the carbon rod for the anode. I have a video in my list using stainless steel and a carbon rod.
ytmachx 1 year ago
Would 2 stainless steal electrodes work
megamarko94 1 year ago
@megamarko94 not so much
ytmachx 1 year ago
you can use quantitative analysis to test for kclo3, just weigh your kclo4 ,heat to decomposition and weight the remains. do a little math and you can tell if your on or not!
Gmc42082 1 year ago
@Gmc42082 I don't believe that will do anything but make KCL
ytmachx 1 year ago
I think you should add a few drops of concentrated sulfuric acid to some solid potassium perchlorate. It might be a good demo!
69iron69 1 year ago
Why didn't you just electrolyze the KCl in the first place?
TakronRust 1 year ago
@TakronRust Starting with KCL will first make KCLO3, which is virtually insoluble even in a hot solution. The KCLO3 would have to stay in solution for further electrolysis to become KCLO4, an even less soluble material. In my other videos where I start with KCL, you can see the KCLO3 drop out of solution due to relative insolubility.
ytmachx 1 year ago
What is the anode,and what is cathode...?
ZnachiBeatBox95 1 year ago
@ZnachiBeatBox95 The anode is platinum clad niobium screen connected to a 6mm diameter platinum clad titanium rod.
The cathode is .050" thick 304L stainless steel perforated screen welded to a 6mm diameter 304 L stainless steel rod.
ytmachx 1 year ago
basically if I understand running the cell for enough time ALL of the chlorate will be converted to perchlorate? since in your video you didn't show that there were traces of chorate
Aranwu 1 year ago
@Aranwu I don't believe that conversion would be 100%, but it would be close. Perchlorate was easier to test for. Testing for trace amounts of chlorate is more complicated.
ytmachx 1 year ago
You stop the reaction when the blue is very strong?? please answer :/
hexamine2012 1 year ago
@hexamine2012 Methylene blue is intensely blue. When it comes in contact with perchlorate it becomes purple/ violet. The electrolysis was continued after the first indication of perchlorate to make sure that there was a sufficient amount of conversion. ( To completely convert all of the chlorate,I should have run 150 hours more)
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx Thanks but when you electrolyse your NaCl , you make NaOCl ? No KClO4..?
hexamine2012 1 year ago
@hexamine2012 You actually make NaCLO4, if you run long enough.
It is converted to KCLO4 by metathesis.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx Ok thanks :) and very good video
hexamine2012 1 year ago
very interessting!
but I thought by the elektrolysis of NaCl-water, the NaCl is turned to NaOH, Cl2, H2, and not chlorate or perchlorate, or is this adoption wrong?
xxxXThunderstormXxxx 1 year ago
@xxxXThunderstormXxxx
In the NaCl electrolysis, NaOH,Cl2,H2, are all present during the process. If the process runs long enough, you will produce NaClO3 and NaClO4.
ytmachx 1 year ago
is there another way to determine if it is perchlorate? because i dont have methylene blue. i know if you melt potassium chlorate in a test tube and then drop in a bit of sulfur, it will violently react and burn. so i can do this with the finished product and if nothing happens then its perchlorate am i right?
thanks.
TheBombBros 1 year ago
@TheBombBros That's what I've heard, but I haven't tried it.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx i have with KClO3 i made from that video. and it worked. im guessing KClO4 wont burn right? i guess i can just try it and see how it goes. but i need to let my cell finish the run its on now. its my 4th run using direct conversion. my next run is perchlorate with sodium chloride instead of KCl. ill let you know how it goes. ill probably start in about 3-5 days.
TheBombBros 1 year ago
What difference is there when compared KClO3 and KClO4. I know that perchlorate has higher oxidation state, but does that mean its more powerfull?
GunPhysics 1 year ago
@GunPhysics I can't tell the difference, they both go bang really well, but the perchlorate is supposed to be more stable, and for that reason it is used in pyrotechnics. Also, I think, some colors of fireworks,(like blue), don't work well with chlorate but with perchlorate they do.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@GunPhysicschlorates are really dangerous with sulfur and phosphorous. but perchlorates are relatively safe around them. perchlorates are much safer in the use of pyrotechnics. i prefer perchlorates over chlorates by a long shot.
TheBombBros 1 year ago
I made two assumptions when i made my calculation: Assumption 1: max yeild of KClO4 was 19.51 mol (from the moles of NaCl). Assumption 2: All of the NaCl(aq) was electrolysized during the process. If the assumptions are false then sorry bout dat.
69iron69 2 years ago
I only metathesized 1500mL(half) of the sodium perchlorate.
ytmachx 2 years ago
I calculated your % yeild to be 36.2 %. maybe if the waste chlorine was bubbled through another KOH solution you could salvage some waste. great set up though
69iron69 2 years ago
I believe you are mistaken. Read the description carefully.
ytmachx 2 years ago
Very nice looks like a great yield did you do any efficiency calculations? Also dont quote me on this but I believe the precipitation of potassium perchlorate is exothermic so I would be carful using hot solutions. wow is that pure Pt mesh!!!???.
urbanpyr0 2 years ago
Yes, I have also heard that about the exothermic nature of the metathesis. I have clearly demonstrated the metathesis. What did you see? The anode is not solid platinum.
ytmachx 2 years ago
grate video presentation.
do you sell it? i will bay
PM me
surplusdriller 2 years ago
pretty cool set up,
how easy is it to store?
and how much was you're set up?
chipmunk3k 2 years ago
Thanks, there is no problem with storage, just put it in a container or bottle. The setup was 100s of $.
ytmachx 2 years ago
Hi , please post how do make benzyl chloride form benzyl alcohol and HCl
mario8401 2 years ago
Nice video. I'm drawn like a fly to it. :). You could post this over and over and I would still love them.
Cathode is that platinum side? Should last very long.
How good is a wielding machine for this use? What type is the best? If not why?
To everyone: Has any of you tried rocket propellant of sodium/potassium perchlorate/sugar? Would be very very interested to hear about it. Been searching for a video about it for a very long time. Dyng to see one.
Cheers Nattsurfaren.
nattsurfaren 2 years ago
Anode (+), is platinum side. Welding machines usually have too high voltage for the cell. I suppose you could experiment with it though. I think there are some videos of the chlorate and sugar.
ytmachx 2 years ago
@ytmachx
Thanks for the quick reply. About the rocket propellant videos that you mention I mostly see the rocket candy type propellant. Then there is a couple of ammonium perchlorate videos which is not so interesting because this can't be easily done at home and ingredients are probably hard to get.
nattsurfaren 2 years ago
@nattsurfaren Black powder is better for rocket fuel. Place a normal firecracker (aluminum/perchlorate mix) in a vice, tighten it down well and tap the vice with a small hammer, it will go off, just like it would pressing a rocket motor. Sugar contains sulphur, which is bad around chlorate. Even the sulphur in cannon fuze can sensitize chlorate after a while. Watch heating kclO3 or kclO4 in a test tube, glass dosent show up on xray very well. Use a watch glass.
Gregkret 1 year ago
@Gregkret Sugar or sucrose contains NO sulfur (molecular formula C12 H22 O11). Perchlorate is the better fuel rocket engines. The space shuttle doesn't use black powder, it uses ammonium perchlorate and aluminum.
ytmachx 1 year ago
@ytmachx Thats true, what was I thinking, no sulphur in sugar. The message I responded to sounded like he was talking about firework type rocket motors, (pressed or hammered over a form) as to industrial large scale motors like the shuttle that are cast from a slurry. Sorry.
Gregkret 1 year ago
@Gregkret
About using chlorate in a rocket I had problem with as you describe that the rockets explodes. I had much better luck when I used hollow core.
/Natt
nattsurfaren 1 year ago
Nice video! If you stir the mix while your doing electrolysis you'll produce less Cl2 gas and improve your perchlorate yield. I scrub the exhaust gases coming from my cell with NaOH(aq) and this produces NaOCl(aq), leaving pure H2 gas. 5*
jmontello1 2 years ago
what... no sugar test???
weldmaster80 2 years ago
Sorry to disappoint! Maybe next time :}
ytmachx 2 years ago
great vid, make more
localbroadcast 2 years ago
cute little beaker =)
sciencoking 2 years ago
Hi ther ytmachx another nice video i hawe a few questions.
Howe long do the crystalisation face wher you mix the KCL in to the Sodium perchlorate ?
And what is the corekt name on the Anode/katod, i hawe bin trying to finde some on E-bay but i cant find them :(
Once agen nice video like them allot.
Btw sorry fore any spelling errors not to good on english.
anoger 2 years ago
The crystallization/cool down of the metathesis solution to room temp took about 6 hours.
For anodes and cathodes, look up Anomet on the web
Thanks for watching! :)
ytmachx 2 years ago
yeah, you have some fancy lad equipment. i use to have a few beakers until i broke them with heating them too fast with a torch. i should hav learned from the first time. thats is why i bought a hot plate. i got a new package of science apparell coming in soon so i can do this synthe. i dug out my old charger and cleaned it. i started this synthe. already and have about 11 hours in on the electolysis. even though i vented it, i can smell a strong odor of chlorine gas. im going to move it outside
TheBombBros 2 years ago
I've broken 4 2L beakers so far. The thinner beakers just break sometimes when I'm heating them,even on a hot plate. I really hate it when they break when they're full :{
ytmachx 2 years ago
yeah, all mine have broke when they were full. it makes for a waste of time and hard work. not to mention how expensive some of the stuff is.
TheBombBros 2 years ago
I buy the 2l beakers in sixpacks. They are about $11 each. The 5L was $40 on ebay
ytmachx 2 years ago
i see. i buy from FlinnScientific. they sell all types of chemicals, beakers, flasks, and other science apparel. also they have kits to perform the experiments that are already set up. but they only ship to schools. luckily, my dad works at ISU. there prices are amazing. their 2l beakers are pretty good. the best ive seen.
TheBombBros 2 years ago
very great stuff! was the first who gave it 5 stars =P
how pure do you think is your KClO4?
any idea, how to seperate it from the rest of the KClO3?
try some perchloric acid^^
Myfanwy94 2 years ago
I would guess that the perc in the video is better than 80%, but it is difficult to say for sure how pure it is. There are several ways to destroy the chlorate before metathesis. A significant lowering of the pH will do the trick. I think the perchloric acid or HCL should do the job nicely.
ytmachx 2 years ago
D00d! We have the same washing machine!
TalksWithDirt 2 years ago
LOOL! I just did the video there because the camera has trouble with colors and the background and lighting is better there.
ytmachx 2 years ago
Your lab equipment makes me jealous.
bamboo4tameshigiri 2 years ago 6
In the last phase when KCL and the electrolyte are combined, what is the matter that appears to collect on the surface? Is that perchlorate too?
Barnekkid 2 years ago
Yes, I think that it is chlorate, KCL, and perchlorate.
ytmachx 2 years ago
do you harvest the "waste" hydrogen? you could probably make a crude fuel cell.
69iron69 2 years ago
i guess the hydrogen would be mixed with chlorine? that stuff goes bang on contact with sunlight.. bad idea.. (:
anyways yt PLEASE write O instead of 0 :D
antiswattt3 2 years ago
Ok, sorry about that.
ytmachx 2 years ago
@antiswattt3
Well dont expose it to UV light then bubble it through an aqueuous solution of reducing agent. That would probably work.
69iron69 2 years ago
well if it was bubbled through water then the hydrogen and chlorine would go into, only chlorine would dissolve making HCl.. just it doesnt get in contact with sunlight, the chlorine/hydrogen.. (: could be cool stuff to make.. ^^ but i guess ill buy as that stuff takes up alot of space, and it needs to be running too.. and its noisy.. all gotta be done ninja style.. package style (;
antiswattt3 2 years ago
@antiswattt3
Okay ive got the perfect solution, bubble it through a solution of sodium hydroxide and any hydrochloric acid will react with it.
69iron69 2 years ago
to get neutral ofc? :P hmm.. sodium chloride.. cool :P if i used potassium hydroxide (if i had any) i would get potassium chloride?? o: completely re-usable system, and it gives hydrogen for fun :P
antiswattt3 2 years ago
No, I let the hydrogen go.
ytmachx 2 years ago