The answer is actual treatment by real psychologists, AA is Fucking magic and voodoo. The thing is its Christian Hoodoo so we all accept it...
If you watch the whole episode or say actually know anything about the science of addiction, you'd know that Alcoholism isn't an addiction but a symptom of deeper problems...
AA is a christian scam to brainwash folks and control the lives of the rest of us...
@LordBoofhead1 First of all, you show your ignorance about AA by calling it a Christian program. It is not a Christian program, never has been. In fact, I challenge you to produce even on reference to Christianity in any of the AA Literature. Secondly, many psychologists recommend their patients go to AA. So according to you all of these doctors are quacks who should be sued for malpractice?
@katoe9871 The people interviewed for this Penn and Teller spot are AA's who have not really studied the literature but have gotten bad ideas from meetings. There are many meetings of AA where there are strong personalities who have not bothered to study the literature. They promote bad ideas like God or Higher Power can be a rock or door knob. No rock, door knob or other inanimate object got me sober using the program of AA. Meetings are NOT the program of AA. They are just meetings of people.
If you were walking on the beach and didn't see anybody immediately around and you saw a sand castle, would you assume that somebody made it, or would you guess that the sandcastle was always there? Now picture the earth as a giant sandcastle.
@chuckiebaby66 The reason why the Argument From Design (as the 'sandcastle argument' is properly known) falls flat on it's face, is that you first have to identify the sandcastle as something "out-of-place". That is to say, something that could not have been formed by natural processes (and therefore must be man made).
The problem is that identifying it as such is only possible in the larger context of reality, in which natural processes are (by far) the normal way to explain things.
The attempt to make an analogy equating "reality" with "a sandcastle" fails because reality has no analogous context. Reality is (by definition) "the sum of all things that exist", and therefore has no larger context to be a part of. It is for this reason that all (rational) philosophers argue that reality requires no explanation.
(If you kept to your limited version including just the Earth, you could get away with saying "something made it... maybe aliens", if not for the fact that Earth's existence is easily explained by natural processes.)
@mur38 see that's the kind of thing I hate. Im christian and hate when I hear other christians trash talk atheists and other religions as if being dickheads will prove a point
It's too bad but in the fellowship of AA there are quite a lot of people who do not practice/know the program of AA. Pen and Teller have used information from uninformed members of AA to debunk AA. When in fact the program of AA does not promote people using rocks as a God. AA says God can be found from within oneself. Alcoholics lack the willpower to abstain from booze. The AAs who wrote the AA book found through doing the 12 steps a Power Greater that helped give them lasting abstinence.
@1through12step: Actually, I'm in the middle of a heated discussion on an internet forum, right now, about whether AA is religious or not. The ones defending AA say exactly that: God can be a rock, a tree, a f cat turd, or a doorknob. whatever you want god to be for you, that's what god is.
Sorry, but there really are people in AA who promote just that. They also say the 12 steps are "optional" and you needn't follow them at all.
@dewalker Hi, it is unfortunate that in the fellowship of AA (meetings) that people actually promote things that are NOT the program of AA. The 12 steps are always optional, but if you want to get sober with the program of AA the 12 steps are mandatory. No where in the AA book does it say that God can be a rock / door knob. These are bad ideas spread in the fellowship meetings by other AA's trying to look good or be an "authority". It is plain wrong. AA says God/HP is found within oneself.
These guys have no idea what it's like to be an addict. I struggle with the idea of a higher power, so mine has no name. And if God lovers are offended by that that's just too damn bad.
Why would anyone knock something that helps people? Addiction is proven to be a disease, spiritualism and religion is not the same thing! Its self righteous douch-bags like travellinman321, who think they know it all and "tell everyone how the world really works", that just knock things they dont like
I don't think that's what the AA members meant by higher power. Accepting a higher power is basically the same thing as getting a hobby or a new interest that gives new meaning to your life. So if someone saw a rock as a higher power, that just would mean they'd substitute geology for chronically drinking.
Get over it that AA is 'religious' when i just goes by history that america generally is. Now I know, it is in style now to be atheist, just like eastern religion was cool in the 70's...but cum on...
I got so hooked on how very different all of these comments on AA are that I didn't even watch the video! Some say their experience was too focused on religion rather than helping the alcoholics recover, while some say that that was only a tiny part of it all. Some say that it doesn't work while others say that it does. For me, this exposes something important; AA groups are not all following the same program.
@NiamhFrancisPianist Also, for the non-religous commenters here, it's all well and good to complain that AA is run by religious people and that it's unfair that it has to be so, but if you don't like that then why not go set up your own alcoholics' recovery organization that doesn't enforce religion on anyone, or go look for someone who has done so? Or even simply ignore the religious aspect of AA and focus on the rest?
@NiamhFrancisPianist EXACTLY, and it's giving the real program of AA a bad name. AA is simple. The first 100 AA's found that they could not combat their alcoholism with their own willpower. There willpower over drink was gone. They did find (through the help of Dr. Carl Jung) that a spiritual awakening, a connection with a God of sorts could relieve the disease. How to achieve that connection with a Higher Power and have a spiritual awakening is through doing the 12 steps. That's it period.
I fucking hate AA with a passion. Look up "Order and Chaos" arguments, and you will see there's good and bad sides to both. AA is the bad side of order, i.e. Blind obedience.
My grandfather went to AA and is still going. Sure, he doesn't drink as much as he used to, but it has made him such an arrogant, closed minded individual.
@hornet579 - AA is not about 'blind obedience'. You are as ignorant on the subject as the two twits in the video.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of abstinence from alcohol. Your grandfather still drinks, so AA isn't having an effect. If your grandfather is arrogant and close-minded, it is not because of AA.
@MayoMcCheese You are a fool. I never said AA wasn't a program about abstinence from alcohol, it clearly is, only a fucking retard would accuse me of stating that. Why do you completely state the obvious that "AA isn't having an effect"? You cannot truthfully state what you do not know or have experienced, so why do you insist on telling ME that MY grandfather who I have known all of my life, did not act like this before AA, but now he does, and it's not from AA? Shut your mouth, moron.
@hornet579 - I state the obvious because you are a simpleton and too stupid to reason for yourself. Since AA is NOT having an effect on your grandfather, how can you blame AA for the fact that he is an arrogant, close-minded asshole? Going by your posts, I would guess that being an asshole just runs in your family..
I am an addict/alcoholic that attends a 12-step program. I am also an atheist. I use the concept of Good Orderly Direction has a higher power. I've always thought it was silly to use an inanimate object as a higher power, but to each his own, I don't judge today. The truth is, some alcoholics/addicts do stay sober with the help of the 12-step fellowships.
I am also a BS fan. This proves any human institution can be made to look silly. Everything is flawed.
P&T are really ignorant on this particular subject. I'm an atheist, and an alcoholic who turned his life around with the help of AA. The god part is just a small piece, and I typically just ignore it. It's more about finding people who have had similar experiences with addiction, figuring out you're not alone, or unique. Figuring out that you're basically a self-centered child who seeks attention through your addictive actions. full of anger and resentment and learning to fix it.
@therealmcnulty Got that right. They actually have a disclaimer in the beginning of this episode that they don't know shit about addiction. However, the point made in the episode is still valid: governments have no business in forcing people into religious (or quasi-religious) organizations. No matter what the end, it doesn't justify the unconstitutional means. And this clip, well, it's just plain funny.
@rintakumpu Yeah I can see the point there. It's kind of a gray area for me. I wish someone had forced me into AA years before I found it on my own. If you have a problem with drinking it can help you in a life changing way, but you have to be ready and willing to change. Some drunk who got a DUI will probably just show up waiting for someone to sign his court papers.
@therealmcnulty As a child, my mother went with her mother to AA. Hours of listening to the most depressing stories in the world is a good way to make yourself want to drink more.
And self loathing hardly sounds like a good way to find the strength to overcome addiction to me. As they also say in the ep, give yourself some credit. You made the decision to quit, you wanted it to work and you made it work.
@therealmcnulty I don't care what people believe... as long as they stfu about it. Religious people and former cigarette smokers (amongst others) really need to can it and let people just "BE"
@therealmcnulty blamethenile is the pres. of AA. they both shoot heropin in seattle and make videos about anti AA. rich trust fund crybabies. how's id love to see them in state prison the little freaks....
@MrMZaccone haha, I wrote that when I thought I had it all figured out. I've since found a higher power. It's a big piece of the puzzle if you want to stay sober. Working the program your way will keep you sober for a while, but it's a white knuckle ride for sure. Just surrender, let go of your old ideas, any length, no half measures. It will work and you will enter into a strange new world. It's a cool place to be.
@therealmcnulty People on AA claim they're helpless against alcohol. But think about it, if I offered you a million dollars to not drink for a week, you'd see that task suddenly become trivial pretty fast.
@lordthawkeye yeah I could do it no problem, but i would be irritable, restless and discontent while doing it. Alcoholism is just a manifestation of a much deeper problem. I haven't had a drinking problem in a while, but I'll always have a thinking problem. That's what AA helps me with. If it brainwashed me then my brain needed washing. Everything about my life is better as long as I follow a few simple suggestions every day.
@therealmcnulty It's great that you found AA, but the literature says nothing about God being only a part. If you study the big book God and spirituality is the ONLY part. You obviously have not studied the big book or 12 and 12. What you are talking about is actually not the program of AA and these kinds of ideas talked abut in the fellowship will make it very difficult for real alcoholics to stay sober. Please, there is no "god part" God and Higher Power is the only part.
Anyway, I've always preferred Einstein's pantheism or Jefferson's deism to outright Freudian atheism myself. The former two tend to be grounded in logic - while the latter, though it used to be at least respectable, has become the mentality of emo teenagers rebelling against their parents, a byproduct of being the "do whatever the fuck you want" philosophy.
When I saw AA, I was hoping to see Penn's take on Affirmative Action, but this was still good.
@taylormark19 What? WHAT? I believe in God rather than P&T doing drugs. And my simple answer to you is the same as the one I give to religious people: Show me the evidence.
Most episodes are good. This one was just in bad taste.
AA does not teach that you can use a rock as your higher power. They tell you to use "God as you understand him." This helps people who have been raised in abusive religions like Mormonism or Catholicism get around their old ideas of God, and find something that works.
Good point. Though this still doesn't get around the fact that sending people to AA as a punishment (for DUI, for example) is unconstitutional. God/state/separated.
anybody looking for something to worship ? worshiip my cock! bow to my cock send money and i will make your dreams come true well 50% of the time so ask for a lot of shit you dont need.
This is what angers me about religious people. They believe, that by default, people have a god whether it be the invisible man in the sky or a 'tree' . No, as an Atheist, I do not have a substitute god. And, even if people believed that trees were godlike, the state of the world would certainly be 100 times better then it is now as we wouldn't be destroying the planet. Unless, of course, there was a clash between religious groups about which species of tree was god... oh CRAp!
I'm not that well-educated in physics & philosophy, but bare with me. Everything came from an event called the Big Bang. Don't ask what was before Big Bang as there was no time and hence no "before". Also, the cause of Big Bang is irrelevant: if there was no time, there wasn't causality either, ergo no causes. Imagining the God as a deistic cause of Big Bang is futile. This merely leads to an infinite regress. So, God need not exist and as evidence of God is nil, it's likely God doesn't exist.
Slight elaboration: Imagining the God as a deistic cause of Big Bang / creation of the Universe is futile *because* mere definition of supreme being is completely vague. We cannot know God but we have fair understanding of Big Bang. This ignorance makes God a subject of an infinite regress: there could always be an even higher being that created God (ad infinitum). These explanations also satisfy both my heart (they're beautiful) and brain (they make sense). This makes me a full-on atheist.
Rintakumpu, somebody has hacked into my account and is making ridiculous comments on my behalf. I am not a bible thumper, nor do I believe in any religious myths for that matter.
This is why I'm Atheist. Not because I disrespect any religions but because there is not one piece of pure evidence of any God or after life or anything. The bible could be a book of folktales, nobody knows. We can presume but I remain Atheist until I can find 100% evidence.
Hmm, well I really have not one proof of God yet. The bible? A bunch of folk tales educating people on like how someone believed it should be? Who knows? No one does. That's why I can't believe any religion.
"belief" takes faith to claim something is true that is not 100%. Cause no scientific principle is. Theist are taking a much bigger leap of 'faith' than atheists. There is just no evidence for theism.
There isn't 100% evidence that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, so why don't you go ahead and believe in that. As any good scientist will tell you, you cannot ever disprove anything by 100% you can only find support for or against it. And as far as I am concerned I am not going to believe in a 'god of the desert' because somebody tells me it has even the slightest possibility of existence.
the following assumes that you were replying to my post:
i never said i believed in anything. if you really want to know i don't believe in any religion.
you may not realise but you're actually agreeing with me. I was saying that you can't be 100% sure of anything so its not safe to call ones self an atheist. i prefer the term agnostic.
In my comment from 3 weeks ago, i wrote 4 sentences. Exactly which sentence did you disagree with? Or did you make the foolish mistake of assuming that my views opposed yours?
Read a comment properly and make sure you understand it before spouting out your defensive crap next time. by not thoroughly considering someones opinion, you're no better than an ignorant christian.
Let them have their fun. If worshipping some macaroni deludes them into thinking that they are making a rational argument, who are we to intrude on their ignorance?
I'm considered both. Don't believe in him but also unsure. I would consider myself more atheist because the idea of God existing sounds like a fairy tale
Well, you could say it works both ways. There's no evidence to prove, or disprove the exsistance of such a being. There might even actually be a flying spaghetti monster out there, who knows. But just because we can't see it, there's no reason to dismiss the idea completely. The universe is a big place afterall. :p
I'm not religious or anything, I'm just saying. ;)
I hate how these AA people keep telling you the only way your going to get sober is by coming to these meetings and they keep pushing and pushing you. Then they read "the preamble" and "how it works"(same thing over and over again) and make their comments, then the meeting is over, then everybody goes about their ways and doesn't really care . AA meetings drove me to drink more than anything. Alcoholism is a choice and a joke!
Alcoholism is NOT a disease! You cannot catch alcoholism anymore than you can catch drug abuse, gambling addiction or sex addiction. It's a choice and a behavior! People choose to drink. At best alcoholism is a symptom of a root psychological problem. You cannot cure alcoholism without addressing the cause of the persons addictive personality. And AA is bullshit and a complete fraud with a 95% failure rate! It's nothing more than a religious based cult.
Not every disease is spreadable. Take arthritis as an example. A very nasty disease, but do you get worried about catching it every time you visit grandpa?
That's not the point! People don't choose to have arthritis, but they do choose to drink! You don't inherit drinking! It's simply an addiction and addictions (beyond chemical addictions) are ultimately behavior problems, not diseases! People can easily be treated for chemical addictions, yet most of them relapse anyway. That is a behavior and a choice, not a disease!
AA, GA and NA work for some people, so what is the problem? Just because it can't be scientifically or psychologically explained doesn't mean it isn't so. Talking from experience of one of the above programs, it lifted me from a near destitute and completely lonely life to a productive and fulfilling one. Maybe some meetings are cult-like, but if you find a good one it is anything but, and encourages the individual to put their egos to one side and find their own path.
Over the years, to accommodate ever-broader objections to "the God idea," AA's basic message has become watered down with this idea that some inanimate object can be a Higher Power. The original program suggests that each alcoholic investigate the notion that s/he isn't powerful enough to effect the necessary recovery. Any concept of a HP will do, but of course it's going to have to be one that the alcoholic believes (or hopes) can and will do the job, out of love and grace, just for the asking.
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do you blame a hammer when a house falls down? there is no reason to blame alcohol for when you mess up. These sissy's who claim to have alcoholism just messed up their lives and can't handle the blame.
This has nothing to do with blame. It has everything to do with responsibility. Health care professionals are foibled by alcoholism because they cannot get the alcoholics to take responsibility for their action -- a principle component of 12 step programs.
P & T are not interested in the full debate -- they are entertainers taking on a straw-man
zen - you've garnered this incontrovertable fact about alcoholics, responsibility, & health care professionals from exactly what source?
P&T's stock in trade is pulling away the curtains that obscure illusions. they're doing the same w/the 12X12 in a biting, satiric, entertaining fashion.
For those who insist alcoholism is a choice -- you are ignoring the genetic component. A scientific fact accepted by the AMA as part of the definition of the disease -- just like schizophrenia, certain types of cancer or diabetes.
Not to say that you're wrong there (some people really are genetically more susceptible to addictions) there's also a genetic component in free will, i.e. the choices we make are made (mostly) freely, but this is certainly an evolved trait (as most species don't exhibit this kind of behavior).
actually, lance dodes in his book "the heart of addiction" & all his followup work (clinical psychologist @ harvard) pretty much skewers the 'genetic' argument.
there is no 'alcoholism' gene any more than there is a 'gay' gene. it's a myth & any geneticist will inform you as such.
most likely there is a polygenetic component to addiction and sexual preference, meaning you can't isolate one gene that will make you an addict or not, but a number of genes contribute to the likelihood that you will become one, just like there are a number of environmental factors that will contribute to the likelihood of you becoming an addict.
There's a genetic component to everything we do, including living. Just because something is genetic does NOT mean it is justified. For example, I don't have to tolerate somebody's violence regardless of their genetic predisposition to violence.
I don't think we should ignore heredity, but heredity does not DEMAND drinking, only a predisposition. It certainly isn't the main reason we have alcoholism.
Whether all behavior is nature or nurture is not something we're likely to settle! But I agree, the fact that alcoholism has a genetic component does not justify anti-social behavior.
OTOH, if someone has a physiological makeup that causes an abnormal craving for alcohol, a voluntary program that supports abstinence seems like a good idea. P&T take issue with 'God' in the literature so they lump AA in with bad pseudo-science. That's at odds with the opinion of the AMA. I trust the AMA.
I think we're in agreement on the physiological and nature vs. nurture items, as well as the availability of voluntary abstinence programs.
I largely trust the AMA, though I have some reservations. I agree with encouraging spirituality where it provides a benefit, but that's the main emphasis of the program... 7 of the 12 steps mention it explicitly, and the 'cure' hinges on God's will.
I find that helpful for some and an unjustified removal of responsibility for others.
I think spirituality should be viewed as a tool in the arsenal against alcoholism, but not the singular path it's presented to be.
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
Ultimately, it is human will which overcomes alcoholism. It's silly to make these things (probably) a matter of miracles, and that's where I see P&T taking objection.
zen - the AMA defines alcoholism initially as a 'disability'. later it defines drug dependencies "such as alcoholism" as diseases.
lawrence dodes in his "heart of addiction" pretty much skewers the notion of alcoholism being primarily genetic in nature. btw, the AMA is the only organized medical/psychotherapeutic body to recognize the 'disease' of alcoholism.
'choice' is a dicey term when it comes to abuse or dependency. but alcoholic drinking is not some autonomic process; it's behavioral.
Notspeedy ... point taken, but, from JAMA -- Vol. 268 No. 8, August 26, 1992 ... "Therefore, the committee agreed to define alcoholism as a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations."
So -- you are incorrect about the AMA's definition.
P & T are entertainers, not an actual source of reliable information. Everything they say has a point, but should never be seen as unbiased.
zen - AMA definition H-30.995 defines 'alcoholism' as a disability; definition H-95.983 defines 'drug dependencies, including alcoholism' as diseases 'and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice'.
look it up.
either way, the AMA never mentions 'spirituality', 'god', or 'higher powers' as part of any recommended medical treatment.
also, alcoholism is not the only disease characterized by a behavior- take tourrete's syndrome. it is also not the only disease that takes a behavioral component to set off. think of heart disease. if you eat dont eat well and exercise you are more likely to get heart disease!
mBog - i have no vested interest in medical or scientific professionals talking about alcohol abuse/dependence in terms of 'disease' or 'brain disease' or even 'epi-genetic phenemenon'. it's semantics.
AA/12X12 disingenuously use the word in terms of 'spiritual disease' (the medical director @ hazelden was quoted on a recent CNN special saying just that). genetics, biology, nature/nurture don't cross ethereal boundaries.
even so, the genetics research is still far from conclusive.
I agree, there is no such thing as a spiritual disease-that's just silliness and calling it a disease or not is an issue of semantics, but there is undeniable evidence that in certain people drug use alters the brain in such a way that makes it extremely difficult to quit with willpower alone. (I'm a neuroscience major and did a report on it last semester) I also believe it is ridiculous to claim that AA or some 12 step prog is the only way to fix this prob.
staying sober is a lot easier when you've got support & when you've got friends who will pick you up when you stumble - praise you for using ANY effective method of maintaining your goal. unconditionally. people doing together what seemed impossible alone is humanity at its finest.
that, however, is not AA for the vast majority who come to it desperate for help. it's the hocus-pocus gobbledygook of 'spiritual disease' & learned helplessness.
AA/NA is a terrible, terrible program to get people off drugs and alcohol. I had to go there and it is nothing but indoctrination and futile cult-like behavior.
Addiction is compulsively repeating behavior you know is bad for you. Judging from both sides of the argument here, nobody here seems to know jack shit about addiction. "It's a choice!" That statement is lame and tired. Addiction is a SYMPTOM of a bigger problem. That bigger problem is a psychological one. Nobody CHOOSES to be an addict. The make CHOICES that accomodate their psychological problem. The comments on this page are clueless. Absolutely clueless.
addiction is physical, sometimes leading to psychological problems. And you know what? it is a choice, the physical problems just make it harder to choose to stop. I became addicted to the sugar and caffeine in cola and when i stopped drinking it (through choice) i had headaches and felt tired a lot, THIS IS NOT psychological its called withdrawal. People choose to do stuff that they can become addicted to, its often NOT psychological.
No, addiction is not a "choice". Using is a choice. There is a difference. Nobody chooses to be an addict. They become one through choices they make, but they certainly don't choose to be an addict. If you spent time around recovering drug addicts you would understand this.
One can choose to fuel their addiction that exists, yes.
The YouTube chanters don't change that fact. I see it every day. Talk to drug counselors. Talk to addiction researchers.
Why do people become alcoholics? Because at a certain time it feels better to be drunk than not. It has NOTHING to do with blame, shame or anything else. It feels better to be drunk, problem is, too much of a good thing is, by definition, TOO MUCH.
Too bad.
It has nothing to do with ones 'thinking', it has everything to do with ones CHOICES.
Why do people become alcoholics? Because its always simpler to blame others (or an imaginary existence) for your problems. People are always finding ways to make themselves look sick to others, if you have a problem its okay, complete strangers will approach you and say "get better soon" and you dont even need a real disease like cancer.
Penn lacks formal education, and has latched on to a dogmatic atheism that, like most of his expressed beliefs, does not seem very well thought out. What is he "debunking" here? Alcoholics finding a way to kick the habit one day at a time? If contemplating a rock keeps you sober then hooray for that rock! Penn is a multimillionaire through a lifelong pursuit of money, something he has blind faith in. The Federal Reserve is the biggest "Bullshit" of all, yet he is silent on the topic.
Oh good point... he hasn't been "educated" into believing something without proof, and so studied the facts, and produced rational opinions on matters in his own mind instead of following others. How could we possibly trust someone who's at least 100 times more intelligent than you? Pretty Easily.
We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop. The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this.
We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem.
I have always enjoyed Penn and Teller. They bring up different reasons for why things are, or are not, possible. In this instance, they are wrong. American University? What's that? How far did they have to dig to find that guy? If I look hard enough, I can find someone that will believe that black is white and white is black. The alcoholism meets the CDC criteria to be listed as a disease. Not once will the program or persons in AA will EVER tell you or even suggest you go to church...EVER.
"Though the family has no religious connections, they may wish to make contact with, or take membership in a religious body.
Alcoholics who have derided religious people will be helped by such contacts. ... He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to minister to our troubled world." Chapter 9.
One day Penn was bending over and i think quite possably a jesus statue got inadvertanly stuck up his ass and ever since then hese been fule of jesus. hence the dark hidden meaning of the show bullshit .wich eminates an unholy smell.however he could be utilized as a poster boy fore the advocation of Illeagalization of Corn fructose.
Actually AA bill W IN his GEnious Sugested AA Have available to all who could benafit from it a Multiplistic Spirituallality or higher power basically in function a group faith in oneanother to stay sober and alive. its all inclusive religiousity that dosent aknowlege anything other than its own way as the only way to have faith.its a 2000 year old egoic nurilogicall disorder.
Pantheistic beliefs would say a rock and everything else in the universe is imbued with a divine spirit. That's not an esoteric idea - it is shared by over a billion Hindus, and is older than any western religion.
Penn obviously does not worship knowledge, aggressively spouting ignorance, having ended his formal education with high school. He seems to be in awe of money and those who have more of it than he does though. The one-note shouting of what's on the teleprompter sure gets old.
One gets the impression Penn Jillette has no internal monologue. He simply spouts familiar lines from the Reagan-era right-wing hipster pop culture zone.
As he well knows, for him to accuse anyone of not respecting someone else's god concept is hypocritical, as he devoted a half hour show to doing exactly that himself.
Besides, the guy in this video did not do that. A pantheist could well experience God in a rock.
Penn is an eternal adolescent, calculating his words to provoke.
One gets the impression you like to throw around terms you hear from Keith Olberman. Penn Jillette is so right wing that he is pro-immigration, anti-religion, for the legalization of drugs, advocates legalizing prostitution...the list goes on. He is a Libertarian, meaning he is generally socially liberal and fiscally conservative while holding the personal freedoms of Americans as top priority. I don't agree with some of what he believes (amazing, I think for myself!) but to say he's right wing?
All of the psuedo-intellectual rambling in the world will not cure one addict. Addiction is a matter of two things - self-control (psychological) and chemical dependence (medical). If a person wants to ogle a tree thinking that it will rid them of their dependence issues, they are sadly mistaken. Maybe you should watch the entire episode and check your snide, holier-than-thou attitude at the door. Their point is the addiction requires real treatment, not talk or god. And I DID go to college ;)
No, certainly not...it was in response to virindigo. I appreciate the post, I love this show and I love this clip.
And while I'm at it, college is in no way a good measure of intelligence or validity. Even at the graduate level, very few people have well-thought ideas to bring to the table. As with the rest of the world, the world of academia is subject to the kind of heart-over-logic and riot response way of thinking that makes for very bad but widely accepted ideas. Penn's better off without.
hee hee hee we just love someone like you, IM AN EXPERT, ALTHOUGH I HAVE NO REAL LIFE EXPIRIENCE WITH THE PROBLEM. IM AN EXPERT, CAN YOU SEE MY DEGREE SAY IM AN EXPERT, MY HAIR SAYS IM AN EXPERT, Thanks for your well meaning contribution. If you arent one, you will never understand one....lol
You got a point there (even as his actual name *is* Teller). But what they've got is a serious shtick, and in my opinion it's a good one. Gets me almost every time & that's more than enough.
oh my god, do me a favor, watch the bullshit episode on nostradamus,
what he did is act like a machine gun
spray bullets everywhere, see if you hit a bad guy,
spray theorys and crackpot predictions everywhere, see what sticks, and lets not forget, history and the possibilities of what could happen in the future, are infinite. thats alot of fucking bad guys
That rock bounced pretty nicely... There is no rock?
iarebrown 3 months ago
Always run perpendicular to the velocity vector of the moving object!
Whether it be train, car, falling tree or rolling rock
Trust me, it's a solid tactic
myrtlebox 5 months ago
honestly, what the fuck do these two jerkoffs care about AA? If you don't need it, why do you care about it?
On top of that, they can tear down AA, but what is there solution for people in the grips of alcoholism or drug addiction? fucking magic?!
RacerExx 5 months ago
@RacerExx
The answer is actual treatment by real psychologists, AA is Fucking magic and voodoo. The thing is its Christian Hoodoo so we all accept it...
If you watch the whole episode or say actually know anything about the science of addiction, you'd know that Alcoholism isn't an addiction but a symptom of deeper problems...
AA is a christian scam to brainwash folks and control the lives of the rest of us...
LordBoofhead1 5 months ago
@LordBoofhead1 First of all, you show your ignorance about AA by calling it a Christian program. It is not a Christian program, never has been. In fact, I challenge you to produce even on reference to Christianity in any of the AA Literature. Secondly, many psychologists recommend their patients go to AA. So according to you all of these doctors are quacks who should be sued for malpractice?
STFU about things you know nothing about, dummy.
RacerExx 5 months ago
Oh my God, a giant rock!
teel115 6 months ago
How a rock or a tree in the front yard can 'work' to treat addiction is beyond me...
katoe9871 6 months ago
@katoe9871 The people interviewed for this Penn and Teller spot are AA's who have not really studied the literature but have gotten bad ideas from meetings. There are many meetings of AA where there are strong personalities who have not bothered to study the literature. They promote bad ideas like God or Higher Power can be a rock or door knob. No rock, door knob or other inanimate object got me sober using the program of AA. Meetings are NOT the program of AA. They are just meetings of people.
1through12step 6 months ago
ignorant people
DJLunasf 7 months ago
Why can't my higher power be heroin? I see nothing wrong with that.
yinjara 7 months ago
If you were walking on the beach and didn't see anybody immediately around and you saw a sand castle, would you assume that somebody made it, or would you guess that the sandcastle was always there? Now picture the earth as a giant sandcastle.
chuckiebaby66 7 months ago
@chuckiebaby66 Great, now you've got me worrying about what happens when the cosmic tide comes in. Oh look... a space crab!
NecessaryTruths 7 months ago
@chuckiebaby66 The reason why the Argument From Design (as the 'sandcastle argument' is properly known) falls flat on it's face, is that you first have to identify the sandcastle as something "out-of-place". That is to say, something that could not have been formed by natural processes (and therefore must be man made).
The problem is that identifying it as such is only possible in the larger context of reality, in which natural processes are (by far) the normal way to explain things.
NecessaryTruths 7 months ago
The attempt to make an analogy equating "reality" with "a sandcastle" fails because reality has no analogous context. Reality is (by definition) "the sum of all things that exist", and therefore has no larger context to be a part of. It is for this reason that all (rational) philosophers argue that reality requires no explanation.
NecessaryTruths 7 months ago
(If you kept to your limited version including just the Earth, you could get away with saying "something made it... maybe aliens", if not for the fact that Earth's existence is easily explained by natural processes.)
NecessaryTruths 7 months ago
there really is a place called Iraq-Around-the-Clock
i left my hand in Pakistan
Shoe3003 7 months ago
@mur38 see that's the kind of thing I hate. Im christian and hate when I hear other christians trash talk atheists and other religions as if being dickheads will prove a point
barenzy 8 months ago
It's too bad but in the fellowship of AA there are quite a lot of people who do not practice/know the program of AA. Pen and Teller have used information from uninformed members of AA to debunk AA. When in fact the program of AA does not promote people using rocks as a God. AA says God can be found from within oneself. Alcoholics lack the willpower to abstain from booze. The AAs who wrote the AA book found through doing the 12 steps a Power Greater that helped give them lasting abstinence.
1through12step 8 months ago
@1through12step: Actually, I'm in the middle of a heated discussion on an internet forum, right now, about whether AA is religious or not. The ones defending AA say exactly that: God can be a rock, a tree, a f cat turd, or a doorknob. whatever you want god to be for you, that's what god is.
Sorry, but there really are people in AA who promote just that. They also say the 12 steps are "optional" and you needn't follow them at all.
dewalker 7 months ago
@dewalker Hi, it is unfortunate that in the fellowship of AA (meetings) that people actually promote things that are NOT the program of AA. The 12 steps are always optional, but if you want to get sober with the program of AA the 12 steps are mandatory. No where in the AA book does it say that God can be a rock / door knob. These are bad ideas spread in the fellowship meetings by other AA's trying to look good or be an "authority". It is plain wrong. AA says God/HP is found within oneself.
1through12step 6 months ago
These guys have no idea what it's like to be an addict. I struggle with the idea of a higher power, so mine has no name. And if God lovers are offended by that that's just too damn bad.
WorldBFree2006 8 months ago
Why would anyone knock something that helps people? Addiction is proven to be a disease, spiritualism and religion is not the same thing! Its self righteous douch-bags like travellinman321, who think they know it all and "tell everyone how the world really works", that just knock things they dont like
SteveMatthews2006 9 months ago
I don't think that's what the AA members meant by higher power. Accepting a higher power is basically the same thing as getting a hobby or a new interest that gives new meaning to your life. So if someone saw a rock as a higher power, that just would mean they'd substitute geology for chronically drinking.
MegaAstrodude 9 months ago
Get over it that AA is 'religious' when i just goes by history that america generally is. Now I know, it is in style now to be atheist, just like eastern religion was cool in the 70's...but cum on...
4bumblebee4 11 months ago
I got so hooked on how very different all of these comments on AA are that I didn't even watch the video! Some say their experience was too focused on religion rather than helping the alcoholics recover, while some say that that was only a tiny part of it all. Some say that it doesn't work while others say that it does. For me, this exposes something important; AA groups are not all following the same program.
NiamhFrancisPianist 1 year ago
@NiamhFrancisPianist Also, for the non-religous commenters here, it's all well and good to complain that AA is run by religious people and that it's unfair that it has to be so, but if you don't like that then why not go set up your own alcoholics' recovery organization that doesn't enforce religion on anyone, or go look for someone who has done so? Or even simply ignore the religious aspect of AA and focus on the rest?
NiamhFrancisPianist 1 year ago
@NiamhFrancisPianist EXACTLY, and it's giving the real program of AA a bad name. AA is simple. The first 100 AA's found that they could not combat their alcoholism with their own willpower. There willpower over drink was gone. They did find (through the help of Dr. Carl Jung) that a spiritual awakening, a connection with a God of sorts could relieve the disease. How to achieve that connection with a Higher Power and have a spiritual awakening is through doing the 12 steps. That's it period.
1through12step 8 months ago
Penn and Teller are bullshit. Sorry.
bigirish68 1 year ago
@jeffrey42088 thats hilarious
ruderevival 1 year ago
Alcoholics Anonymous has nothing to do with religion. Just because it was founded by a religious organization does not mean anything.
ruderevival 1 year ago
I fucking hate AA with a passion. Look up "Order and Chaos" arguments, and you will see there's good and bad sides to both. AA is the bad side of order, i.e. Blind obedience.
My grandfather went to AA and is still going. Sure, he doesn't drink as much as he used to, but it has made him such an arrogant, closed minded individual.
Fuck AA.
hornet579 1 year ago
@hornet579 - AA is not about 'blind obedience'. You are as ignorant on the subject as the two twits in the video.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of abstinence from alcohol. Your grandfather still drinks, so AA isn't having an effect. If your grandfather is arrogant and close-minded, it is not because of AA.
MayoMcCheese 1 year ago
@MayoMcCheese You are a fool. I never said AA wasn't a program about abstinence from alcohol, it clearly is, only a fucking retard would accuse me of stating that. Why do you completely state the obvious that "AA isn't having an effect"? You cannot truthfully state what you do not know or have experienced, so why do you insist on telling ME that MY grandfather who I have known all of my life, did not act like this before AA, but now he does, and it's not from AA? Shut your mouth, moron.
hornet579 1 year ago
@hornet579 - I state the obvious because you are a simpleton and too stupid to reason for yourself. Since AA is NOT having an effect on your grandfather, how can you blame AA for the fact that he is an arrogant, close-minded asshole? Going by your posts, I would guess that being an asshole just runs in your family..
MayoMcCheese 1 year ago
I love P&T, but Gilette has many cockeyed, absolutist opinions about AA that are just ignorant. BTW, I am completely atheist.
Penn has never taken one drink in his life, but he blatheringly pontificates about alcoholism like a nun describing sexual intercourse.
My bet is that if he took one drink his life would fall apart immediately.
squanto2 1 year ago 2
I am an addict/alcoholic that attends a 12-step program. I am also an atheist. I use the concept of Good Orderly Direction has a higher power. I've always thought it was silly to use an inanimate object as a higher power, but to each his own, I don't judge today. The truth is, some alcoholics/addicts do stay sober with the help of the 12-step fellowships.
I am also a BS fan. This proves any human institution can be made to look silly. Everything is flawed.
dbennett455 1 year ago
P&T are really ignorant on this particular subject. I'm an atheist, and an alcoholic who turned his life around with the help of AA. The god part is just a small piece, and I typically just ignore it. It's more about finding people who have had similar experiences with addiction, figuring out you're not alone, or unique. Figuring out that you're basically a self-centered child who seeks attention through your addictive actions. full of anger and resentment and learning to fix it.
therealmcnulty 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty Got that right. They actually have a disclaimer in the beginning of this episode that they don't know shit about addiction. However, the point made in the episode is still valid: governments have no business in forcing people into religious (or quasi-religious) organizations. No matter what the end, it doesn't justify the unconstitutional means. And this clip, well, it's just plain funny.
rintakumpu 1 year ago 12
@rintakumpu Yeah I can see the point there. It's kind of a gray area for me. I wish someone had forced me into AA years before I found it on my own. If you have a problem with drinking it can help you in a life changing way, but you have to be ready and willing to change. Some drunk who got a DUI will probably just show up waiting for someone to sign his court papers.
therealmcnulty 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty As a child, my mother went with her mother to AA. Hours of listening to the most depressing stories in the world is a good way to make yourself want to drink more.
And self loathing hardly sounds like a good way to find the strength to overcome addiction to me. As they also say in the ep, give yourself some credit. You made the decision to quit, you wanted it to work and you made it work.
lordthawkeye 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty I don't care what people believe... as long as they stfu about it. Religious people and former cigarette smokers (amongst others) really need to can it and let people just "BE"
WritingJenny73070 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty blamethenile is the pres. of AA. they both shoot heropin in seattle and make videos about anti AA. rich trust fund crybabies. how's id love to see them in state prison the little freaks....
IsraelforeverUSA1 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty So you did an 11 step program?
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
@MrMZaccone haha, I wrote that when I thought I had it all figured out. I've since found a higher power. It's a big piece of the puzzle if you want to stay sober. Working the program your way will keep you sober for a while, but it's a white knuckle ride for sure. Just surrender, let go of your old ideas, any length, no half measures. It will work and you will enter into a strange new world. It's a cool place to be.
therealmcnulty 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty So what's your "higher power"? and how does it act to keep you sober?
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
@therealmcnulty People on AA claim they're helpless against alcohol. But think about it, if I offered you a million dollars to not drink for a week, you'd see that task suddenly become trivial pretty fast.
lordthawkeye 10 months ago
@lordthawkeye yeah I could do it no problem, but i would be irritable, restless and discontent while doing it. Alcoholism is just a manifestation of a much deeper problem. I haven't had a drinking problem in a while, but I'll always have a thinking problem. That's what AA helps me with. If it brainwashed me then my brain needed washing. Everything about my life is better as long as I follow a few simple suggestions every day.
therealmcnulty 9 months ago
@therealmcnulty It's great that you found AA, but the literature says nothing about God being only a part. If you study the big book God and spirituality is the ONLY part. You obviously have not studied the big book or 12 and 12. What you are talking about is actually not the program of AA and these kinds of ideas talked abut in the fellowship will make it very difficult for real alcoholics to stay sober. Please, there is no "god part" God and Higher Power is the only part.
1through12step 8 months ago
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@therealmcnulty "The god part is just a small piece"
HA! Yeah right - it's like 5 of the 12 steps.
JuryDutySummons 8 months ago
@therealmcnulty there are good AA and stupid AA. some offer help, some offer jesus.
logoth80 7 months ago
@therealmcnulty Rational Recovery is much, much better than that fucking propaganda (AA) AA is terrible for you. Sorry, but you are in denial.
mikeisapro 4 months ago
THERE'S A ROCK!
Illyria23alyssa 1 year ago
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That rock wasn't even going that fast...
Anyway, I've always preferred Einstein's pantheism or Jefferson's deism to outright Freudian atheism myself. The former two tend to be grounded in logic - while the latter, though it used to be at least respectable, has become the mentality of emo teenagers rebelling against their parents, a byproduct of being the "do whatever the fuck you want" philosophy.
When I saw AA, I was hoping to see Penn's take on Affirmative Action, but this was still good.
TehSmellulare 1 year ago
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TehSmellulare 1 year ago
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gcremz 2 years ago
the only people i knowwhove been to aa have either rejected it a bullshit or been emotionally damaged.....its dangerous
ezmereldagreen 2 years ago
@ezmereldagreen Imagine the freedom of not caring about your comment.
bigirish68 1 year ago
@bigirish68 imagine having total freedom
ezmereldagreen 1 year ago
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gcremz 2 years ago
@gcremz r u the expert you idiot
taylormark19 2 years ago
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gcremz 2 years ago
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taylormark19 2 years ago
@taylormark19 What? WHAT? I believe in God rather than P&T doing drugs. And my simple answer to you is the same as the one I give to religious people: Show me the evidence.
rintakumpu 2 years ago
@rintakumpu In God *before* P&T doing drugs, that is.
rintakumpu 2 years ago
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Penn is a very unhappy man. he admits this freely. he could use a higher power.
godforge2003 2 years ago
What? Does he? I've been watching his video blog (Penn Says) for over a year now and he seems everything but unhappy!
rintakumpu 2 years ago 3
Ignore him. That is simply a textbook case of preaching.
1RadicalOne 1 year ago
Most episodes are good. This one was just in bad taste.
AA does not teach that you can use a rock as your higher power. They tell you to use "God as you understand him." This helps people who have been raised in abusive religions like Mormonism or Catholicism get around their old ideas of God, and find something that works.
malicea4thought 2 years ago
Good point. Though this still doesn't get around the fact that sending people to AA as a punishment (for DUI, for example) is unconstitutional. God/state/separated.
rintakumpu 2 years ago
@malicea4thought how is mormonism an abusive religion? i dont no that much about it
BobSaget37 2 years ago
@malicea4thought As I understand God, he doesn't exist. How is that supposed to help?
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
BLACK JESUS...i rode in on an ass...YO mamas ass..
maltsandshakes06 2 years ago
gay black jesus
taylormark19 2 years ago
anybody looking for something to worship ? worshiip my cock! bow to my cock send money and i will make your dreams come true well 50% of the time so ask for a lot of shit you dont need.
pinktac0o 2 years ago
Thats not fair!!!!!! NO lazers allowed !! Its in the god deal thing !!!
MrJohnnyrace 2 years ago
My God can beat up your God !!!
MrJohnnyrace 2 years ago
Pfft! my god can beat your god any day!
He has lazar eye beams!!! :P
pmq123 2 years ago
AA is a cult.
Brotherolaf 2 years ago
This is what angers me about religious people. They believe, that by default, people have a god whether it be the invisible man in the sky or a 'tree' . No, as an Atheist, I do not have a substitute god. And, even if people believed that trees were godlike, the state of the world would certainly be 100 times better then it is now as we wouldn't be destroying the planet. Unless, of course, there was a clash between religious groups about which species of tree was god... oh CRAp!
koolooah 2 years ago 8
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koolooah 2 years ago
I'm not that well-educated in physics & philosophy, but bare with me. Everything came from an event called the Big Bang. Don't ask what was before Big Bang as there was no time and hence no "before". Also, the cause of Big Bang is irrelevant: if there was no time, there wasn't causality either, ergo no causes. Imagining the God as a deistic cause of Big Bang is futile. This merely leads to an infinite regress. So, God need not exist and as evidence of God is nil, it's likely God doesn't exist.
rintakumpu 2 years ago
You're talking about Judaism's Yahweh, right? He's imaginary.
VCat2006 2 years ago
Slight elaboration: Imagining the God as a deistic cause of Big Bang / creation of the Universe is futile *because* mere definition of supreme being is completely vague. We cannot know God but we have fair understanding of Big Bang. This ignorance makes God a subject of an infinite regress: there could always be an even higher being that created God (ad infinitum). These explanations also satisfy both my heart (they're beautiful) and brain (they make sense). This makes me a full-on atheist.
rintakumpu 2 years ago
Rintakumpu, somebody has hacked into my account and is making ridiculous comments on my behalf. I am not a bible thumper, nor do I believe in any religious myths for that matter.
Keep posting your vids!
koolooah 2 years ago
Ouch, that's brutal.
But are you sure that it wasn't my foolproof argumentation that actually converted you into an atheist :D ?
rintakumpu 2 years ago
This is why I'm Atheist. Not because I disrespect any religions but because there is not one piece of pure evidence of any God or after life or anything. The bible could be a book of folktales, nobody knows. We can presume but I remain Atheist until I can find 100% evidence.
Z4rifion 2 years ago 14
The trick is that you never will find any evidence until you die....
bediest 2 years ago
Atheism= Belief in "no god"
there is no "100% evidence" that no god exists.
so why do you believe in one but not the other?
Personally, i'm agnostic.
1upnadam1 2 years ago
Hmm, well I really have not one proof of God yet. The bible? A bunch of folk tales educating people on like how someone believed it should be? Who knows? No one does. That's why I can't believe any religion.
Z4rifion 2 years ago
I agree, you can't trust any religion. I was just pointing out that you don't have proof of atheism either ;)
1upnadam1 2 years ago
"belief" takes faith to claim something is true that is not 100%. Cause no scientific principle is. Theist are taking a much bigger leap of 'faith' than atheists. There is just no evidence for theism.
AdamNagele 2 years ago 3
yep, every belief takes faith, and Atheism takes much less faith than Theism.
don't get me wrong, i wasn't putting Atheism on the same level as Theism, or attacking Atheism.
I was simply saying that just because a theory is the most likely, doesn't necessarily mean you should put all your eggs in that basket.
Believe that your favoured option is probably true, but still be open minded to all possibilities.
1upnadam1 2 years ago
There isn't 100% evidence that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, so why don't you go ahead and believe in that. As any good scientist will tell you, you cannot ever disprove anything by 100% you can only find support for or against it. And as far as I am concerned I am not going to believe in a 'god of the desert' because somebody tells me it has even the slightest possibility of existence.
koolooah 2 years ago 3
the following assumes that you were replying to my post:
i never said i believed in anything. if you really want to know i don't believe in any religion.
you may not realise but you're actually agreeing with me. I was saying that you can't be 100% sure of anything so its not safe to call ones self an atheist. i prefer the term agnostic.
1upnadam1 2 years ago
In my comment from 3 weeks ago, i wrote 4 sentences. Exactly which sentence did you disagree with? Or did you make the foolish mistake of assuming that my views opposed yours?
Read a comment properly and make sure you understand it before spouting out your defensive crap next time. by not thoroughly considering someones opinion, you're no better than an ignorant christian.
1upnadam1 2 years ago
The "flying spaghetti monster" argument that gets rehashed by wanna-be intellectuals is lame and fucking old. Get something else to hang your hat on.
thebull284 2 years ago
FSM is alive and thriving.
Fuck you.
TimJMorrison 2 years ago
Ramen
Chavadorf18 2 years ago
Let them have their fun. If worshipping some macaroni deludes them into thinking that they are making a rational argument, who are we to intrude on their ignorance?
Albyiscool 2 years ago
The flying spaghetti monster isn't an argument. It's mockery.
Now, there are arguments that may use FSM as an example, and those tend to be valid - just like using Thor and Zeus are valid examples.
ApesAmongUs 2 years ago
@Z4rifion Then you're an agnostic, sweetie.
Rensune 11 months ago
@Rensune
I'm considered both. Don't believe in him but also unsure. I would consider myself more atheist because the idea of God existing sounds like a fairy tale
Z4rifion 10 months ago
@Z4rifion
Well, you could say it works both ways. There's no evidence to prove, or disprove the exsistance of such a being. There might even actually be a flying spaghetti monster out there, who knows. But just because we can't see it, there's no reason to dismiss the idea completely. The universe is a big place afterall. :p
I'm not religious or anything, I'm just saying. ;)
ThePieIsLie 8 months ago
@Z4rifion Very true. Except I do disrespect all religions and will do so until they respect my right to be an atheist.
mur38 8 months ago
I hate how these AA people keep telling you the only way your going to get sober is by coming to these meetings and they keep pushing and pushing you. Then they read "the preamble" and "how it works"(same thing over and over again) and make their comments, then the meeting is over, then everybody goes about their ways and doesn't really care . AA meetings drove me to drink more than anything. Alcoholism is a choice and a joke!
jinsbae 2 years ago
Alcoholism is NOT a disease! You cannot catch alcoholism anymore than you can catch drug abuse, gambling addiction or sex addiction. It's a choice and a behavior! People choose to drink. At best alcoholism is a symptom of a root psychological problem. You cannot cure alcoholism without addressing the cause of the persons addictive personality. And AA is bullshit and a complete fraud with a 95% failure rate! It's nothing more than a religious based cult.
captainbryce1 2 years ago
Not every disease is spreadable. Take arthritis as an example. A very nasty disease, but do you get worried about catching it every time you visit grandpa?
Moezinator 2 years ago
That's not the point! People don't choose to have arthritis, but they do choose to drink! You don't inherit drinking! It's simply an addiction and addictions (beyond chemical addictions) are ultimately behavior problems, not diseases! People can easily be treated for chemical addictions, yet most of them relapse anyway. That is a behavior and a choice, not a disease!
captainbryce1 2 years ago
AA, GA and NA work for some people, so what is the problem? Just because it can't be scientifically or psychologically explained doesn't mean it isn't so. Talking from experience of one of the above programs, it lifted me from a near destitute and completely lonely life to a productive and fulfilling one. Maybe some meetings are cult-like, but if you find a good one it is anything but, and encourages the individual to put their egos to one side and find their own path.
danny210779 2 years ago 2
Over the years, to accommodate ever-broader objections to "the God idea," AA's basic message has become watered down with this idea that some inanimate object can be a Higher Power. The original program suggests that each alcoholic investigate the notion that s/he isn't powerful enough to effect the necessary recovery. Any concept of a HP will do, but of course it's going to have to be one that the alcoholic believes (or hopes) can and will do the job, out of love and grace, just for the asking.
suzanne3t 2 years ago
You live in the USA with a constitution that defends freedom of religion= You two are not clever humorists here.
evet45 2 years ago
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helpforaddiction 2 years ago
do you blame a hammer when a house falls down? there is no reason to blame alcohol for when you mess up. These sissy's who claim to have alcoholism just messed up their lives and can't handle the blame.
jamzwaffle12 2 years ago
This has nothing to do with blame. It has everything to do with responsibility. Health care professionals are foibled by alcoholism because they cannot get the alcoholics to take responsibility for their action -- a principle component of 12 step programs.
P & T are not interested in the full debate -- they are entertainers taking on a straw-man
ZenSkin 2 years ago
zen - you've garnered this incontrovertable fact about alcoholics, responsibility, & health care professionals from exactly what source?
P&T's stock in trade is pulling away the curtains that obscure illusions. they're doing the same w/the 12X12 in a biting, satiric, entertaining fashion.
you want debate? look up maia szalavitz.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
If alcoholism is a disease then those in AA who give advice or sponsor are practicing medicine without a license.
By classification there is only, alcohol abuse or alcohol dependence.
The word, "alcoholism," is contrived.
Ciada91 2 years ago
For those who insist alcoholism is a choice -- you are ignoring the genetic component. A scientific fact accepted by the AMA as part of the definition of the disease -- just like schizophrenia, certain types of cancer or diabetes.
ZenSkin 2 years ago
Not to say that you're wrong there (some people really are genetically more susceptible to addictions) there's also a genetic component in free will, i.e. the choices we make are made (mostly) freely, but this is certainly an evolved trait (as most species don't exhibit this kind of behavior).
rintakumpu 2 years ago
actually, lance dodes in his book "the heart of addiction" & all his followup work (clinical psychologist @ harvard) pretty much skewers the 'genetic' argument.
there is no 'alcoholism' gene any more than there is a 'gay' gene. it's a myth & any geneticist will inform you as such.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
most likely there is a polygenetic component to addiction and sexual preference, meaning you can't isolate one gene that will make you an addict or not, but a number of genes contribute to the likelihood that you will become one, just like there are a number of environmental factors that will contribute to the likelihood of you becoming an addict.
mBognerd 2 years ago
There's a genetic component to everything we do, including living. Just because something is genetic does NOT mean it is justified. For example, I don't have to tolerate somebody's violence regardless of their genetic predisposition to violence.
I don't think we should ignore heredity, but heredity does not DEMAND drinking, only a predisposition. It certainly isn't the main reason we have alcoholism.
AgnosticNews 2 years ago
Whether all behavior is nature or nurture is not something we're likely to settle! But I agree, the fact that alcoholism has a genetic component does not justify anti-social behavior.
OTOH, if someone has a physiological makeup that causes an abnormal craving for alcohol, a voluntary program that supports abstinence seems like a good idea. P&T take issue with 'God' in the literature so they lump AA in with bad pseudo-science. That's at odds with the opinion of the AMA. I trust the AMA.
ZenSkin 2 years ago
I think we're in agreement on the physiological and nature vs. nurture items, as well as the availability of voluntary abstinence programs.
I largely trust the AMA, though I have some reservations. I agree with encouraging spirituality where it provides a benefit, but that's the main emphasis of the program... 7 of the 12 steps mention it explicitly, and the 'cure' hinges on God's will.
I find that helpful for some and an unjustified removal of responsibility for others.
AgnosticNews 2 years ago
I think spirituality should be viewed as a tool in the arsenal against alcoholism, but not the singular path it's presented to be.
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
Ultimately, it is human will which overcomes alcoholism. It's silly to make these things (probably) a matter of miracles, and that's where I see P&T taking objection.
AgnosticNews 2 years ago 2
zen - the AMA defines alcoholism initially as a 'disability'. later it defines drug dependencies "such as alcoholism" as diseases.
lawrence dodes in his "heart of addiction" pretty much skewers the notion of alcoholism being primarily genetic in nature. btw, the AMA is the only organized medical/psychotherapeutic body to recognize the 'disease' of alcoholism.
'choice' is a dicey term when it comes to abuse or dependency. but alcoholic drinking is not some autonomic process; it's behavioral.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
Notspeedy ... point taken, but, from JAMA -- Vol. 268 No. 8, August 26, 1992 ... "Therefore, the committee agreed to define alcoholism as a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations."
So -- you are incorrect about the AMA's definition.
P & T are entertainers, not an actual source of reliable information. Everything they say has a point, but should never be seen as unbiased.
ZenSkin 2 years ago
zen - AMA definition H-30.995 defines 'alcoholism' as a disability; definition H-95.983 defines 'drug dependencies, including alcoholism' as diseases 'and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice'.
look it up.
either way, the AMA never mentions 'spirituality', 'god', or 'higher powers' as part of any recommended medical treatment.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
also, alcoholism is not the only disease characterized by a behavior- take tourrete's syndrome. it is also not the only disease that takes a behavioral component to set off. think of heart disease. if you eat dont eat well and exercise you are more likely to get heart disease!
mBognerd 2 years ago
mBog - i have no vested interest in medical or scientific professionals talking about alcohol abuse/dependence in terms of 'disease' or 'brain disease' or even 'epi-genetic phenemenon'. it's semantics.
AA/12X12 disingenuously use the word in terms of 'spiritual disease' (the medical director @ hazelden was quoted on a recent CNN special saying just that). genetics, biology, nature/nurture don't cross ethereal boundaries.
even so, the genetics research is still far from conclusive.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
I agree, there is no such thing as a spiritual disease-that's just silliness and calling it a disease or not is an issue of semantics, but there is undeniable evidence that in certain people drug use alters the brain in such a way that makes it extremely difficult to quit with willpower alone. (I'm a neuroscience major and did a report on it last semester) I also believe it is ridiculous to claim that AA or some 12 step prog is the only way to fix this prob.
mBognerd 2 years ago 2
mBog - yup, yup & yup.
staying sober is a lot easier when you've got support & when you've got friends who will pick you up when you stumble - praise you for using ANY effective method of maintaining your goal. unconditionally. people doing together what seemed impossible alone is humanity at its finest.
that, however, is not AA for the vast majority who come to it desperate for help. it's the hocus-pocus gobbledygook of 'spiritual disease' & learned helplessness.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
AA/NA is a terrible, terrible program to get people off drugs and alcohol. I had to go there and it is nothing but indoctrination and futile cult-like behavior.
Wahoofuck 3 years ago
Addiction is compulsively repeating behavior you know is bad for you. Judging from both sides of the argument here, nobody here seems to know jack shit about addiction. "It's a choice!" That statement is lame and tired. Addiction is a SYMPTOM of a bigger problem. That bigger problem is a psychological one. Nobody CHOOSES to be an addict. The make CHOICES that accomodate their psychological problem. The comments on this page are clueless. Absolutely clueless.
RipTheSystem33 3 years ago
addiction is physical, sometimes leading to psychological problems. And you know what? it is a choice, the physical problems just make it harder to choose to stop. I became addicted to the sugar and caffeine in cola and when i stopped drinking it (through choice) i had headaches and felt tired a lot, THIS IS NOT psychological its called withdrawal. People choose to do stuff that they can become addicted to, its often NOT psychological.
rhubis 3 years ago
No, addiction is not a "choice". Using is a choice. There is a difference. Nobody chooses to be an addict. They become one through choices they make, but they certainly don't choose to be an addict. If you spent time around recovering drug addicts you would understand this.
One can choose to fuel their addiction that exists, yes.
The YouTube chanters don't change that fact. I see it every day. Talk to drug counselors. Talk to addiction researchers.
RipTheSystem33 3 years ago 2
That plays to the "God dwells within us all theory" surely?
scapegoat300 3 years ago
Why do people become alcoholics? Because at a certain time it feels better to be drunk than not. It has NOTHING to do with blame, shame or anything else. It feels better to be drunk, problem is, too much of a good thing is, by definition, TOO MUCH.
Too bad.
It has nothing to do with ones 'thinking', it has everything to do with ones CHOICES.
spacestate 3 years ago
Better to drink yourself to an early grave than believe in analogous thinking then?
thaddeuslowe 3 years ago
I am an exAA member. They are a cult. No two ways about it. The AA brigade will hate this vid.
metrx330 3 years ago 4
Why do people become alcoholics? Because its always simpler to blame others (or an imaginary existence) for your problems. People are always finding ways to make themselves look sick to others, if you have a problem its okay, complete strangers will approach you and say "get better soon" and you dont even need a real disease like cancer.
XxLuciferousxX 3 years ago
Alcoholism is a "real disease". See the following or google alcoholism physiology.
Resonance Imaging Study of The Rewarding and Anxiolytic Effects of Alcohol: Jodi M. Gilman et al
Evaluation of Aldehyde Dehydrogenase 1 Promoter Polymorphisms Identified in Human Populations: John P. Spence et al
daleshankins 3 years ago
alchohol is an addictive substance. I dont think it has much to do with sympathy or whatever your talking about.
vader329 3 years ago
Penn lacks formal education, and has latched on to a dogmatic atheism that, like most of his expressed beliefs, does not seem very well thought out. What is he "debunking" here? Alcoholics finding a way to kick the habit one day at a time? If contemplating a rock keeps you sober then hooray for that rock! Penn is a multimillionaire through a lifelong pursuit of money, something he has blind faith in. The Federal Reserve is the biggest "Bullshit" of all, yet he is silent on the topic.
mmmrazor 3 years ago
Oh good point... he hasn't been "educated" into believing something without proof, and so studied the facts, and produced rational opinions on matters in his own mind instead of following others. How could we possibly trust someone who's at least 100 times more intelligent than you? Pretty Easily.
DreadLaw2 3 years ago 6
We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop. The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this.
rockyroad4003 3 years ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem.
rockyroad4003 3 years ago
I have always enjoyed Penn and Teller. They bring up different reasons for why things are, or are not, possible. In this instance, they are wrong. American University? What's that? How far did they have to dig to find that guy? If I look hard enough, I can find someone that will believe that black is white and white is black. The alcoholism meets the CDC criteria to be listed as a disease. Not once will the program or persons in AA will EVER tell you or even suggest you go to church...EVER.
caching60098 3 years ago
"Though the family has no religious connections, they may wish to make contact with, or take membership in a religious body.
Alcoholics who have derided religious people will be helped by such contacts. ... He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to minister to our troubled world." Chapter 9.
Enantiodromialist 3 years ago
One day Penn was bending over and i think quite possably a jesus statue got inadvertanly stuck up his ass and ever since then hese been fule of jesus. hence the dark hidden meaning of the show bullshit .wich eminates an unholy smell.however he could be utilized as a poster boy fore the advocation of Illeagalization of Corn fructose.
Johnsherman123 3 years ago
i think penn is smoking rock.
Johnsherman123 3 years ago
Actually AA bill W IN his GEnious Sugested AA Have available to all who could benafit from it a Multiplistic Spirituallality or higher power basically in function a group faith in oneanother to stay sober and alive. its all inclusive religiousity that dosent aknowlege anything other than its own way as the only way to have faith.its a 2000 year old egoic nurilogicall disorder.
Johnsherman123 3 years ago
And there! There is alos self rightous indignation and self centered ego right there there there
NoSheeple14 3 years ago
Pantheistic beliefs would say a rock and everything else in the universe is imbued with a divine spirit. That's not an esoteric idea - it is shared by over a billion Hindus, and is older than any western religion.
Penn obviously does not worship knowledge, aggressively spouting ignorance, having ended his formal education with high school. He seems to be in awe of money and those who have more of it than he does though. The one-note shouting of what's on the teleprompter sure gets old.
tonzimala 3 years ago 3
One gets the impression Penn Jillette has no internal monologue. He simply spouts familiar lines from the Reagan-era right-wing hipster pop culture zone.
As he well knows, for him to accuse anyone of not respecting someone else's god concept is hypocritical, as he devoted a half hour show to doing exactly that himself.
Besides, the guy in this video did not do that. A pantheist could well experience God in a rock.
Penn is an eternal adolescent, calculating his words to provoke.
funboy7979 3 years ago
And we all love him as he is, thank you!
rintakumpu 3 years ago
One gets the impression you like to throw around terms you hear from Keith Olberman. Penn Jillette is so right wing that he is pro-immigration, anti-religion, for the legalization of drugs, advocates legalizing prostitution...the list goes on. He is a Libertarian, meaning he is generally socially liberal and fiscally conservative while holding the personal freedoms of Americans as top priority. I don't agree with some of what he believes (amazing, I think for myself!) but to say he's right wing?
dptrego 3 years ago
Ditto.
rintakumpu 3 years ago
All of the psuedo-intellectual rambling in the world will not cure one addict. Addiction is a matter of two things - self-control (psychological) and chemical dependence (medical). If a person wants to ogle a tree thinking that it will rid them of their dependence issues, they are sadly mistaken. Maybe you should watch the entire episode and check your snide, holier-than-thou attitude at the door. Their point is the addiction requires real treatment, not talk or god. And I DID go to college ;)
dptrego 3 years ago
Is this comment aimed at me? Or someone else? Sure, I've watched the entire episode. I cut this clip out of that, after all.
rintakumpu 3 years ago
No, certainly not...it was in response to virindigo. I appreciate the post, I love this show and I love this clip.
And while I'm at it, college is in no way a good measure of intelligence or validity. Even at the graduate level, very few people have well-thought ideas to bring to the table. As with the rest of the world, the world of academia is subject to the kind of heart-over-logic and riot response way of thinking that makes for very bad but widely accepted ideas. Penn's better off without.
dptrego 3 years ago
Oh, sorry. And while I'm also at it, I think that they also made an episode on college ;)
rintakumpu 3 years ago
"psuedo-intellectual rambling in the world will not cure one addict"???
Nothing can cure irresponsibility.
isegoria1 3 years ago
hee hee hee we just love someone like you, IM AN EXPERT, ALTHOUGH I HAVE NO REAL LIFE EXPIRIENCE WITH THE PROBLEM. IM AN EXPERT, CAN YOU SEE MY DEGREE SAY IM AN EXPERT, MY HAIR SAYS IM AN EXPERT, Thanks for your well meaning contribution. If you arent one, you will never understand one....lol
NoSheeple14 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
;)
Just wanted folks to know; I started an online voice enabled SOS style meeting.
It's a safe, secular place for those looking for sobriety or abstinence support without all of the AA/NA religion and insanity.
Free,critical thinking, self-empowerment and secular expression is encouraged and fostered!
Email me through youtube for the details if you're interested
Be Well
:)
Jrunri 3 years ago
That indeed would've been pity as we all love him as an entertainer.
rintakumpu 3 years ago
Name one AA "dogma",rintakumpu. Just one.
Frunobulax57 3 years ago
Twelve-step program sounds pretty dogmatic. Take step 6: "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."
rintakumpu 3 years ago
Weak sauce guy.
Onewhoislove 3 years ago
You got a point there (even as his actual name *is* Teller). But what they've got is a serious shtick, and in my opinion it's a good one. Gets me almost every time & that's more than enough.
rintakumpu 3 years ago
oh my god, do me a favor, watch the bullshit episode on nostradamus,
what he did is act like a machine gun
spray bullets everywhere, see if you hit a bad guy,
spray theorys and crackpot predictions everywhere, see what sticks, and lets not forget, history and the possibilities of what could happen in the future, are infinite. thats alot of fucking bad guys
anatomyofareflex 4 years ago
amazing isn't it
SunsetRubdownz 4 years ago
Seen them all (BS episodes:)! Sadly the latest season wasn't on par with the previous ones. Though I did like the new title sequence.
rintakumpu 3 years ago