Derrick Jensen: Civilization & Resistance

[KvalnirFox]

Its funny. And true. But I hope hes not trying to say that violence is the answer. We all know that violence isn't the answer, in our hearts we know it.

[trank31337]

@KvalnirFox Not violence necessarily, but at least destruction. But seriously, say there really was a "Darth Vader" who was in charge of destroying the Earth's climate, are you saying that given the chance you wouldn't murder him? You would try to love him instead? What if what he wants in his heart of hearts is to destroy the Earth? Since you love him and want him to be happy, you should let this happen, yes? Hmm...

[KvalnirFox]

@trank3But you see, that is the problem. Stories and fairytales don't match the real life. There is no Darth Wader. Believe me I wish there was, everything would be so simple;) There is no ultimate evil, like in stories. There is just us. If you take out the head of evil, a new one will just come in its place. You can't stop destruction with destruction, history tells it's been tried. It never works. Why? Because there is certain amount of evil in the world.We need to eradicate evil, not people.

[dinokralt4]

wikipedia: Jensen says that he sees civilization to be inherently unsustainable and based on violence. He argues that the modern industrial economy is fundamentally at odds with healthy relationships, the natural environment, and indigenous peoples. .... Accordingly, he exhorts readers and audiences to help bring an end to industrial civilization. this man is much more intelligent and creative then myself, but to truly rally behind these ideas appears to be pure ideology. How can it not?

[trank31337]

@dinokralt4 I don't understand what you mean. To truly rally behind them I think would mean to destroy environmentally destructive agencies. How is that ideological? Do you know what the #1 Domestic Terrorist threat in the USA is? Its ELF, Earth Liberation Front. All they do is destroy unhealthy industry for the benefit of the Earth and all it's people and glory and beauty. You can bet a good many of those courageous people have read Derrick Jensen's books.

[natmanprime]

oh yeah, also world wide welfare

to go with the world wide web.

wars and economy is undermined, everyone will feel less desperate, people would still be free to make money, it just becomes impossible to starve for lack of it.

With those things in place, humanity will take care of the rest.

now we have a clear target.

how do we get there? by the most rational means possible.

i leave that to you, but I recommend by making use of the principles of the 8 circuits (see RAWilson)

[sec0f111]

brilliant

[TedDGPoulos]

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[MrsShirotora]

Methinks the environmentalist rebels wouldn't know what to do next if they really destroyed the Deathstar, hence their reluctance to actually _destroy_ the Deathstar.

[MaSteRKuSH010]

The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything. Albert Einstein.

The slogans of Newspeak are, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength. George Orwell.

Google: Can Bush Be Prosecuted? & Zeitgeist - The Movie

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Krishnamurti.

Wiki. Sheeple.

[TheNinjaphoenix]

Yeh, I also think it is worth noting that Derrick writes books and gives talks, which largely just incite the already radical and angry. He's so willing to criticise, well, just about anyone else in the environmental movement and yet, really, what exactly are his actions doing? Not much, in my opinion, other than creating more division and anger.

[21288003771215]

mission: accomplished.

[UglyFacet]

@TheNinjaphoenix Are you being deliberately dishonest? Most of Jensens' criticisms are rebuttals to dogmatic pacifism's efforts to dictate tactics to everyone else. The issue isn't pacifism itself.

I've been an activist for years, and respect and practice peaceful protest as well as other forms of resistance, and it's very obvious that Jensen is responding to a large and vocal group that always create divisions among their allies, preaching the one-true-only form of protest; nonviolence.

[Devlin3151]

Meh, he seems to be half right, but you dont need violence for the bringing down of an empire such as this, i dont like that making fun of people who dont want to bring violence, because if it isnt "within" you then it wont be in your "outer" you.

[UglyFacet]

@Devlin3151 Again, the issue isn't with all pacifists, just the arrogant ones who try and tell everyone else how to protest.

[HypnotizedAwake]

@UglyFacet lol someone marked our comments as spam :P ... and jensen isnt being arrogant himself? Meh again, i dont really care about this guy or what he says anyway hah whatever. He is kinda funny though and i understand that arrogant anything is up to no good in the long run. Like im vegetarian but wouldnt try to force it on anyone not at all.

[UglyFacet]

@HypnotizedAwake

I haven't met Jensen personally, couldn't tell you how arrogant he is. I meant specifically the folks who try and tell everyone else how to express themselves. That's a dangerous and divisive kind of arrogance that's worth saying something about, you know? Who are they to tell the rest of us how to politic?

And it becomes just one more way that dissent is neutralized.

[HypnotizedAwake]

@UglyFacet Yeah that makes sense

[TheNinjaphoenix]

Does this man just repeatedly tell the same jokes? I wonder how many times he's told this one...even using the same comments and jokes about himself (such as "oh I was too busy playing dungeons and dragons" SAD) His allusion to Star Wars also fails to take notice of one of the cruxes of the story...which is that Luke Skywalker does not give in to his hatred, anger and aggression to Darth Vadar and thereby join the dark force.

[Soulisscool]

Even comedians tell the same jokes at different venues too, because the rooms are filled with different people....does it matter? listen to the message instead.

[crustinople]

You miss the point entirely.

Luke Skywalker uses violent direct action in order to destroy the destructive global empire. He doesn't have to give into hatred and negativity to do it but in order to achieve anything he had to act legitimately. So really the "crux" of the story is, fight back and fight like fucking hell otherwise get on your knees and let your planet, water, and food be destroyed and poisoned.

[hymnofashes]

@crustinople Star Wars is a morally binary fantasy story. What the 'Death Star' in the real world is aimed at is... itself?

Derrick needs to be paid attention to, I think, but this is just a stupid analogy.

[WSWarthog]

@hymnofashes

It's just a metaphor he created to give himself a vehicle to make a point. Being pedantically obsessive over the precise shade of meaning of the metaphor is unecessary if you understand the overall context and meaning. The only reason to raise an objection would be in that case that you've found a flaw in the argument being put forward which itself can be expressed within the same metaphor.

[MithrasAtDusk]

I love how he makes fun of mainstream environmentalists for being too soft with their enemies!

[AntiYChromosome]

Star Nonviolent Civil Disobedience... LOL!

I fucking love Derrick!

[upstart1776]

Nice schtick there, DJ. Did you talk some googoo eyed granola-girl into bed after that? I hope so, because that's the only place your gibberish makes any sense.

[gandhi328]

haha, great metaphor.

[Jonase123]

yaaay, a new jensen talk :)

[fckuvrymch]

yes indeed.  ty.

[Christinecedar]

Thank you Derrick :)