Unfortunately you have made a mistake in your argument. There is a logical fallacy evolved when travelling back in time. Please don't use such stupid examples.
God does not know the future; He made it. God ordained all things. But our mind acts as if I choose as if it I had a will. We must come to acceptance and powerlessness or we struggle with everyday life. Why? we look for a power we can use made from ourselves, but we are always undermined in our determinations regardless of how perfect they seem . Powerlessness is serenity acceptance of a determined will.....act as if you make a difference or to make a difference accept limits and have peace
0:52 - 1:49 - If you (the human observer) know, with absolute certainty, what I'm going to do, then that IS what I'm going to do, by definition.
2:58 - 3:09 - Again, if God 100% knows what you're going to do, then that IS, 100%, what you're going to do. And if you 100% ARE going to do something, that's determinism. They ARE the same thing.
4:05 - 4:16 - But if it's 100% predictable, then it IS deterministic.
Sorry to have so many caps, I'm doing that for emphasis on those specific words.
The problem of free will doesn't stem just from God knowing the future, but that He is responsible for the creation of everything.
Before He created the universe He knew all of the sins the people in His universe would commit. He knew what the position of every particle in the universe would be at any point in time. He knew I'd type this before He said, "Let there be light".
He knew everything, was responsible for creating everything, and decided it would be exactly this way.
and what the FUCK, what are you doing with fancy clothes and expensive furniture. Jesus said "unless you sell everything and give to the poor, you cannot be my disciple". You are a hypocrite and a proud one to. Consider yourself having yet another enemy ;)
@soulteachings You expect people who call themselves Christian to actually FOLLOW the teachings of Jesus? LOL. Nah, they just like religion as an excuse to condemn people, so they can feel superior for once in their pathetic lives. I gave you a thumbs up.
Gods knowledge of my future free will choices is the same as my free will choices being predetermined. The second I was born, God knew whether or not I would make it into Heaven or Hell (because he could see into my future). So my salvation is therefore predetermined by Gods foreknowledge. Yes I agree, it was still I who made the choices. But it stills make it predeterminism.
Let me ask you a question. How do you know that God doesnt see into your future that you have left the faith, blasphemed God and failed the test? So spare us the arrogance. And BTW, your argument fails so much that I dont even want to bother disputing it.
If the biblical text made sense in defining God, it would not describe him as any of the things in which they use to describe him. The Biblical God can't be loving and omnipotent at the same time. The Biblical God can not be Omnipresent and have even a single spokesperson at the same time (See definition of Omnipresent). Jesus is not admirable as he gave guidelines for owning slaves rather than standing up and apposing slavery, he and god are one and the same therefore he was the same who....
@Vottaro Promoted pedophilia in the bible (See here Numbers 31:1-18, the cultural thing of this time is of coarse that all warriors were male and "THE LORD" said to take every young girl for yourselves who has not slept with a man, this is is repulsive especially when all the young boys were killed meaning that it wasn't chores they were taking them for to be accomplished, it was sexual pleasure as homosexuality was deemed a sin. The bible is a travesty for the human race...............
@Vottaro it has inspired many genocides throughout the ages and needs to be taken far away from being an influence on society. As long as people refer to this evil book as a life guide book and 100% never changing truth, inevitably so, it will be used to inspire the evils it promotes in modern or future times.
We have a choice, it's just known by something what that choice will be before we make it. You go on to say it's something that he more...knows slightly about what will happen then you're saying he's not omnipotent. Plus if he is all powerful then he should have known exactly how genetic traits would have been passed down and how our minds would work from the original people which he created, and had he not created them in the way he did we wouldn't be who we are.
This for me goes back to when god created the earth, he knew what each of us would even do, at any point, why would he create something that he loves, and doesn't want to suffer when he can see that there will be some that stray and turn against him? If we go to original sin then he should have known eve was going to eat of the forbidden fruit and he "trusted" her then was...seemingly shocked since he punished her for doing what he knew she would.
ah, but what about this all powerful creator stuff. god can do anything right? and has created everything and set every event into motion great and small... would seem that if this is so, that he is playing GI Joe and i am a cobra guy and there simply to lose so the good guys have something to win. if i could travel into the future and record you, and i also created and utterly control every atom in existance, i wouldnt need to time travel to know what you gona do.
being omniscient(what i think you meant) alone is not a problem. But being omniscient and omnipotent is.He knows that you are gonna get yourself sent to hell yet creates a world in where it happens anyways.Yeah there is some free will in there but ultimately he has created something doomed to suffer.It is more of a matter of flawed design rather than NO free will,there is a lack but not none.
@5thWatcher ...They have different amounts of truth and falsehood in different combinations in 'em. Anyway, I could usually tell which was true, and which was not fairly well.
When you travel ahead in time, assuming you are being serious about this and are moving at a speed close to that of light, you reach the future and yes you can see what I did. But you can not go back in time. It creates major paradoxes. Even if you can, when you travel back and come to me, this set of action was absent in the original reality that you left to travel time. When you come back, you could have changed initial conditions in the universe, and so my choices from then could be different
but the point is you still can't do otherwise. Christians always like to attack this agument by making up a phantom premise "knowing is doing" and then attacking that strawman into a lifeless pile of straw. The argument just points out the fact that you can't do otherwise, because if you did God would have been wrong, and is therefore not all knowing. That means we would all be predetermined to act one way in every situation, but this does not mean we're always coerced.
Isaiah 55:8-9: God said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than earth so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts are your thoughts!"
NO ONE CAN THE DEBATE ABOUT PRESDESTINATION. You get saved from knowing Christ not knowing presdestination.
I used to be a christian but now I'm an Atheist. Why? Because I tried to defend my belief against any and everything that opposed it. I found that by fighting for god, and being a missionary was the only evidence of god i had. That goes for everything even atheism. A belief is a thing it's like a bike or a house, it's just a thing. Don't let things rule your life.
One question. How does proving the ability of an omniscient God to bestow free-will disprove atheism? In the best case scenario, even if you are 100% right, you have merely proved the plausibility of a God, you didn't disprove that there was no God. You didn't prove that God existed, nor did you prove that atheism is incorrect. Your video name is a logical fallacy.
If you went to the future and saw what I was going to do and then told me, the first thing I would do is not do a few of them - negating that future. Also you keep saying omniPOTENT, when you should be saying omniSCIENT. Please buy a clue. And it's a contradiction for a god to be both at the same time, just as we can't have an omniscient being and be truly free.
Why would an omniscient being DO anything - it knows how all outcomes otherwise it's not, well, all-knowing
his knowledge of that event be wrong? Can god's omniscience be wrong, ever? No, not according to scripture. Again, if his future knowledge is accurate, then isn't god's perfect knowledge of the future cause predestiny? Don't the people that god saw in hell, have to go? Can they say I'm going to change my life and be Born Again, & will that invalidate what god saw? Or, is god's perfect knowledge of the future...perfect & true?
You kept using yourself as an example of knowing the future it wouldn't affect our choices. But god would be a different matter.
Supposedly god is perfect. If he is omniscient, and omnipotent (which is a logical contradiction)...lets just say he's omniscient 4 argument's sake. Before he created us, he looks into the future and sees who goes to hell. Is his knowledge of that future vision accurate? Can god know who's going to hell before it happens just by wanting to know? If so, then how can
@5thWatcher The Bible tells us that humility honors others rather than ourselves: "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves" (Philippians 2:3).
Do you believe the bible is the word of God? If so then I think you missed a few things.
@jessalon Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
@jessalon Do you/do you plan on killing your disobedient children? Do you believe the bible is the word of God? If so then I think you missed a few things.
@starsalt9 Shall I also keep slaves and treat them well? Things get a little dicey when you quote the old testament for the reason that Jesus abolished a lot of practices with His very blood. If you cannot grasp the idea of substitution then I don't know what else I can say. I can say that before Jesus came it was eye for an eye. But Jesus through the merit of his sacrifice turned the world's rules that some men even exploited for gain on it's head.
@jessalon I was only pointing out that there are atrocities & contradictions all over the place in the bible. It's your job as Christians to cherry pick the parts of the bible you want to follow, in fact, it's the only measure you can take without doing some crazy double-thinking. Don't throw bible verses at people when there's probably a bible verse that contradicts it somewhere else in the bible.
@starsalt9 A lot of things in the bible that bother people so much are usually examples of blood for sin. In the old testament if you don't ever repent of your sins it could cost you your life. Goats and cattle endured blood sacrifice for the sake of the sins of the people. Jesus' blood was the ultimate blood sacrifice. I know all about the nasty bloody truths of the old testament and these things are the very reason I'm thankful for my faith. I don't cherry pick. I read it all.
@starsalt9 People are mostly offended by the idea of God because they don't want to be accountable for anything they do ever. So they will find every excuse as to why they think it's untrue or "I don't want to believe in a God that (insert whatever your reasons are.)" I can't tell you how to live your life and wouldn't presume to, but I have a right to my life changing faith. I won't be answering anything else you say because it will go no where.
@jessalon Arguing about religion never gets anyone anywhere, it's just an interesting topic, but typically people are too threaded into their beliefs to see any other belief or disbelief as possible. I'm not an Atheist because I don't want to follow the bible, I'm an Atheist because religion is fucking up the whole world and I see no scientific evidence to believe it, thank you very much.
@jessalon Are you serious? Christianity is built on a man dying for YOUR SINS. If someone dying for your fuck ups is you not taking responsibility then what is? If someone was a rapist but then they decide to get saved can they not still go to heaven? You what to know what else is weird. In your Bible your God is limited to what mankind knew at that time. It says that the world is 6000 years old, the earth is flat, that people were sick because of demonic possession. Coincidence? I think not.
@KingWithoutaCause Where does it say 6000 years old and that the earth was flat? And it never says people get sick because of demonic possession, its clear jesus healed sickness with out demonic possession. Sounds to me someone has been reading what some early catholic crap
@MrWarp9 Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the tem
@MrWarp94 ptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...” You should read your bible at little more and apply some rational thought to it. It might actual help. :)
@MrWarp94 If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38). Are you being serious? Or have you just never read your bible? So His fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought to Him all the sick, those who were afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics, and He cured them (Matthew 4:24). Are you forreal?
@KingWithoutaCause Or is that how you like to intrepret it so it fits your cause, the bible never dates the earth, and sure it says adam is the first man what does that have to do with anything? It proves nothing. And can you not read? and they brought to Him all the SICK, those who were afflicted with various DISEASES and PAINS, demoniacs, EPILEPTICS, and PARALYTICS, and He cured them. Demoniacs is just one of the MANY things he cured,
@MrWarp94 If you read the bible you would know when Adam was created it was 4001 B.C. Google it if you don't know. Did you not see the (4000 B.C.) next to it? Obviously YOU can't read. DEMONIAC DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST. They were comparing a non-existent "illness" to disease. They were saying that it was the same thing. If you can't say that than you really need to go back to school. Please don't try to criticize me on bible validity because I will pull out scriptures that you'll say aren't valid.
@KingWithoutaCause In my bible (The NIV & ESV, I looked in both) It never gives a date, therefor i can only say that what your saying is based on something else. As for comparing it to a non-Existant Illness to disease, its a list meaning they are seperate. And im jsut showing you what you are saying isnt biblical.
@MrWarp94 It never said it exactly. Obviously you have never RESEARCHED your bible. I think before we even have this conversation any further you need to read your bible and then research it. Because obviously it's either A. You don't really know about it. B. You don't know that you don't have to directly say something for it to mean it. You can imply things.
@MrWarp94 Sons born, 130 + 105 + 90 + 70 + 65 + 162 + 65 + 187 + 182 = 1056 [ Adam dies year and age 930 [ 3136 BC ]. Noah born, year 1056, age 600, Gen.7:6; in the flood, Noah has 350 years life, Gen.9:28,29; and Noah dies year 2006, [ 2060 BC ].
@KingWithoutaCause Ok, know that it is a rough estimate but i accept it, It doesnt mean that the earth is only that old, who is to say that the earth wasent around for a while before god made humans? And dont say 6 days, becasue we should all understand that An eternal god's 6 days are different than our 6 days.
@MrWarp94 Are you serious right now? So your gods six days are magically longer now? Theist just amaze me. Whenever you use logic or reasoning against them, they say "That doesn't apply to god" It's some kind of get out of jail free card when they have no answer. Like if you ask who made god they say "God made himself." or "God was always there." Anyways you still can't go under the assumption that his days are different than ours. Unless you have evidence. Until then we have to stick with ours.
@KingWithoutaCause Its not magicly longer, but Something that is not bound by time does not have to submit to time, He is not subjected to. Im gonna get technical. We know that energy can not be created or destroyed, First law of thermodynamics, E=MC^2, . Thus All mass has energy. To say there is no god is to say matter/energy came into existance out of nothing. Which is a logic fail. The other option is that is is eternal, which still does not make sence because it is bound in space time, cont.
@KingWithoutaCause Because you know that time is simply change, meaning as long as there is change there is time. Thus matter can not have just always existed because logicly time can not have always existed. TIME IS NOT ETERNAL. an infininte amount of time cant pass, that is illogical. SInce time is not eternal it to must have been created. the bible says that god created everything but was not bound by it. thus god is eternal and does not need a creator.
@MrWarp94 So you are using the bible as a reference to prove god? Lol. Good job. Let's assume we don't know how the universe was created. That does NOT mean it has to be your god now. That is an argument from ignorance. It is not an A or B question. There are many more theories and many more gods which you would have to discredit first. Then you would have to prove your god for your argument to be valid.
@KingWithoutaCause Dont worry about what god, just a god. Thats what is important right now. Besides all religions have their creation story, so, it is a valid arguement. I agree that there are many choices for religion, im just pointing out that there is logicly a god.
@MrWarp94 You can't say a god till you disprove the other theories. What does all religions having a creation story have to do with anything? They are all DIFFERENT. So no. It is not valid. Oh yes. I'm sorry to tell you not all religions have a creation story. WHAT? How are you pointing out that logically there's a god? There is no logical explanation for the sort. If you logically can point out there is a god, YOU WILL BE THE FIRST EVER. So go ahead and try.
@KingWithoutaCause I dident prove a religion, i simply said logicly that there is a god, never mind that there are other religions, look at the evidence, A god IS logical, not proven, but LOGICAL. How would you explain the universe? How would you explain how you came to be?
@MrWarp94 That's the problem. IT IS NOT LOGICAL. Please don't try to use the god of the gaps. Because that is an argument from ignorance. You're trying to say just because we don't know how the universe was created that it has to be a god. Which is not true at all. All that means is WE DON'T KNOW. It's that simple. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you can just assume it was something else without any reason besides the fact it's not something else. It's not A or B. There are
@KingWithoutaCause What does that even mean? You know I have presented a logical god, You cant say that my logic is flawed? There is a god, face it, if you would like to discuss a Christian God please meassage me personaly.
@MrWarp94 Let me put it simple for you. You have NOT presented ANY evidence for a god. Disproving something is not proof of something else. You don't have any logic, if you do go ahead and try to post it. Your ONLY argument so far is that if we don't know how something works than it must be god. Which is an argument from ignorance. The only thing it proves if we don't know something is that WE DON'T KNOW and still need to look into it more to find out.
@KingWithoutaCause So ignorant in the face of logic, something cant come out of nothing, That something can not be eternal, becasue with out that something time does not exist, and if it is eternal, time is infininte which is Illogical, Thus implying a higher power not bound by time and space, E.g. God. Call it what you will, and dont worry about religion, you should see that a god is logical, NOT proven, but logical.
@MrWarp94 Why can't something come from nothing? And if we do ASSUME that's true there are also other theories that don't involve the big bang(something coming from nothing as you so overly simplified it.). So what's your point?
@KingWithoutaCause Something cant come from nothing becase it is ILLOGICAL. Science cant give us a answer on the origin of Matter/Energy because to do so would A) Prove God, B) Disprove all physical laws we know, C) Invalidate the scientific process itself. I dont care about a big bang or any theroy really, it implies that something came from nothing or that this specific something is eternal, ILLOGICAL. Tell me, How do YOU think we came to be?
@MrWarp94 DIDN'T I ALREADY SAY THIS? It's as simple as this READ CAREFULLY. Just because we don't know the answer for something DOESN'T not mean it must be a god. That is an argument from ignorance and what primitive societies would do when they couldn't find the answer to something. Such as the sun, they would blame it on the Sun god and sacrifice innocent people to this thing. It's as simple as this just because it doesn't equal "x" doesn't mean it's "y", Many different answers.
@KingWithoutaCause Sorry, Youtube is being stupid. And its not god of the gaps, i think science complemetns god, this is not god of the gaps, with every new discovery we come closer to knowing god in all his fullness, so in a way, every discovery shows us how god works.
@MrWarp94 No IT DOESN'T. Please don't try to come from an emotional approach. Science DOES NOT complement god. Don't try to take the credit away from the scientists who actually WORK to figure this stuff out and discover new things to some god. How do they help prove god? If anything they DISPROVE a god.
@KingWithoutaCause And there is your problem, Your emotions dont want there to be a god, mine do, I have What i see as logic to believe in such a god, you dont like my logic. You want science to disprove god, i think it does the oppisite. Thats the problem we have sir, not one of us will ever know untill the day we die if there is a god, the difference between you and me is i have faith.
@MrWarp94 Actually I WANT to believe in a god. The same I WANT to believe in Santa. It would be amazing if there were magical people out there given us things and helping us. I would LOVE that. But that's just not the case. You haven't presented LOGIC. When did I say I wanted science to disprove god? The majority of scientists don't believe in a god. Yes you do have faith. Which isn't a god thing. I'd never have FAITH in something without clear evidence of it. That's what a kid does.
@KingWithoutaCause I have presented Logic, go back and read it. And I have tried to respond to your questions, Tell me. HOW DO YOU THINIK WE WERE CREATED?
@MrWarp94 No you haven't, if you have then go ahead and present. I've answered this question AT LEAST THREE FUCKING TIMES. I DON'T KNOW and neither do you. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it must be something else. That is an argument from ignorance.
@KingWithoutaCause I ask because you havent answered me, so whatever you think, or dont, is just as non-evidence based as me. And i dont know, But i find a god more logical, than random chance. you would have to believe in the unusual set of circumstances that allowed life to begin. First matter would have had to innately existed before life.
@MrWarp94 CAN YOU NOT READ? THE ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW. But that is not the basis to present your god. READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW SOMETHING IS CREATED DOES NOT MEAN IT'S GOD. Who said it happened by random chance? You do realize that's not the only theory in the world correct? So you think an invisible magical being is more probably than chance? You are extremely deluded from reality if so.
@MrWarp94 How do I no know what I think? I said I don't know how the universe was created. No one does. Are you really this thick-headed or are you joking?
@KingWithoutaCause If you have absolutley no theory on how the universe came to be, you have become irrelevant because you have no basis for beliefe, you believe nothing therefore im not going to try to use logic to get to my point. Because you simply will reject that theroy and counter with a different one. You need to look at the theory's i would say the big bang is the most logical. You need to figure out what you think before you challange some one else.
@MrWarp94 1. How have I become irrelevant? You do realize if you don't know something the correct way is TO SAY I DON'T KNOW. Don't just come up with a false theory. The big bang is the most logical theory but that doesn't mean it's true. WE DON'T KNOW HOW THE UNIVERSE CAME TO BE. You haven't used logic this ENTIRE ARGUMENT. You simply tried to argue from ignorance. I know what I think. I think that we don't know WHO created the universe. THUS WE SHOULD LOOK MORE BEFORE MAKING THEORIES.
@MrWarp94 See that's the difference between YOU and ME. If you see something you jump to an conclusion without having any evidence because you don't have any other explanations. That's what an ignorant person does. If you don't know something YOU SHOULD LOOK INTO IT and actually find out about. Instead of just asserting dumb-ass theories. If you have ANY logical theories go ahead and try to present them now.
@KingWithoutaCause Big bang, we know the universe is everexpanding, so if we go backwards it logicly comes to one point, logicly the big bang wins. So then we ask the question where did that matter come from? It either was created, which we know by the first law of thermodynamics is impossiable, or it has always been, and because were bound by space/time that is illogical because time is finite. So then we have to look out side of space time, E.g. God, or call it what you will. thats LOGICAL
@MrWarp94 So if time is finite then why couldn't it have been there from the beginning of time? How could something survive outside of time and space? What proof do you have that this thing actually created the universe? Why does it have to be the big bang? There are more theories than the big bang.
@KingWithoutaCause Time is the measure of change of something, nothing to change, no time. And it is only logical unless you plan on rewritting physics. And i think i did a good job justifying the big bang.
@MrWarp94 Time is a part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change such as the motions of objects. Please don't redefine time for your own use. I think the problem here is your misunderstanding of the big bang or science. You are saying it HAD to be your god when it doesn't. That is an argument from ignorance. You have no other explanation so now you are saying it's god? That's incorrect.
@KingWithoutaCause And im sorry, youtube is being stupid and not telling me about other posts you have made, so Im sorry if it seems im behind you or not getting one of your points. And i dident redefine time, you agree it is a measure of change. and im open to other ideas, i just find a god, or what ever you want to call it logical.
@MrWarp94 It is not. God is just an idea for people who need something to help them explain things they do not know. Instead of say I don't know or I may need to look into that more. They rather just say it's some kind of god. It's what's holding us back as a society. This is what PRIMITIVE societies use to do. They could not understand something so they just said it was a god. Because they wanted to give the false illusion that they actually know this stuff. Because knowledge=power.
@KingWithoutaCause If thats what you think thats fine. Thing is your never going to know 100% about the origin of the universe, so pick a theory thats most logical. I find a god, the most logical. If you can prove my logic wrong, then i would rethink what i believe, but the thing is, you cant.
@MrWarp94 See that's the problem. You don't HAVE to pick one. Difference between an Atheist and a Theist. Instead of you saying you don't know. You'd rather just pick something. Of course I can't prove a god is not real. Just like I can't prove Santa isn't real. The thing about your god is it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. So that's another thing that goes against him. Oh yeah. I have an invisible T-Rex in my backyard. Prove me wrong,you can't.
@KingWithoutaCause Its a sad existance if you cant make inferences. but i wish you the best, and thanks for staying civilized through this conversation, some people (athiest and thiest alike) dont seem to know how to do that. I really enjoy these conversations, even if youtube is stupid and wont let me see all your posts. Thanks for Challenging what i think, andi hope i did the same to you.
@MrWarp94 I think the you don't understand is you're pretty much saying that there's no other way that YOU THINK this could have happened so you think it's god. That is a fallacy and an argument from ignorance. Just like your god is supernatural and unexplainable. How do you know something else didn't happen that was supernatural and unexplainable?
@KingWithoutaCause Thats right, its my theory, cant be proven, but so little in this life can be. And i dont know that something else happened that was suppernatural and unexplainable but that sounds suspicisly like a god to me. Word to the wise, Have a theory of your own before you challange someone elses. Very little in this life can be proven past "I think therefore I am", so you need some faith in something, maybe not god, but something.
@MrWarp94 So I can't challenge religions because I don't have one. I like your logic. Lol. This entire conversation has really showed me what religion truly does to a human being. It actually scares me that someone can seriously think like this. Actually EVERYTHING in this life can be proven. Lol. Are you being serious right now? You don't need faith, you need EVIDENCE. Faith is used for those who are gullible. I don't have faith in something. I want actual evidence. I'm not a little kid.
@KingWithoutaCause I ask you to challage yourself, Look at the evidence you think disproves god, seriously look, i want you to challage your beliefe, if you come to the same conclusion you hold now, thats fine, but i suspect if you give it a true look you would come to a different conclusion.
@MrWarp94 I can't challenge nothing. I think the problem here is you don't understand Atheism. Atheism is the lack of believe in god from LACK OF EVIDENCE. It's not that we have evidence that he DOESN'T exist. No one has evidence that he DOES. So the default position is DOESN'T. Until you provide evidence. The same way that if I tell you that I'm 8 ft , your default position would be I'm lying until I brought proof of some kind or showed you. If you believe me, that just means you're gullible.
@KingWithoutaCause Then something would have had to trigger the "BB" which allowed the Universe and our Earth to form. From said explosion there had to be an exact amount of gasses that could have formed an atmosphere capable of supporting life that was not to acidic or close to the Sun. To add to these complexities life would have had to form from single celled organisms that would have had to "fuze" together in order to have more than one nucleus. So yea its not just evidence its faith to.
@MrWarp94 I DON'T KNOW. No one KNOWS for sure. The Big Bang is just a THEORY made from the evidence that we have now. We don't know. That does not mean that your god did it. That is an argument from ignorance. Which part do you not get?
@MrWarp94 See that's the difference between an Atheist and Theist. We make our claims due to EVIDENCE AND PROOF. If you can provide some new proof or evidence of something we will change our claims. Theist try to assert something because they don't understand it. Let me give you an example. If you see a dog outside of your house and you think it's your neighbors and it's not does that mean it has to be your other neighbor? NO. There are different places it could have came from. Too many to know.
If god is omniscient, then he knows what choice you will make. that does negate free as god knew, even before you were a twinkle in your father's eye, what you were going to do. if you were going to change you mind about something, god knows that too. that means you can't make a choice without god knowing what it is going to be as you were predestined by god's omniscience. predestination=no free will
cont: this guy also thinks a little too highly of his intellect. trust me, if you were as smart as you think you were, you would know that everything said in this video is complete bullshit. also, you talk of time travel as if it is real. time travel, like god, cannot exist in the universe as they both create at least one paradox. you also fail to realize that had you given the person the letter at the beginning of the week, they could have changed their activities to something else.
@travmanbw43 this is because there is no god, and that is why we have free will. if there were a god, he would know you were time traveleing, taking note of another's actions, telling that person their action, etc, and if you gave the person the note before the week started, he would know if that person would change their mind.
I am one of those people that you were talking about, and I will argue this briefly. Using what I commonly hear from religious folk, ie "god's plan" and "he works in mysterious ways". Putting these two concepts together with pre-determinism, would you not think that god may alter the environment in such a way to make those who start veering off course to fall back into line. Just some food for thought.
I'm an atheist and i don't believe we have free will because time is a set path. Its a never ending reel of film which we only see a frame at a time. Humans are complex and are deep thinkers. but when you break it down, we are only particles and waves interacting through time as simply as the planets orbiting the sun. Your thinking "your wrong, i can do whatever i want" and maybe you will do something spontaneous to prove it. but your spontaneous action no big deal on the subatomic level
@imafish16 Well I don't think free will cares much about the sub-atomic level. The question is, do we have the ability to makes choices within our means? And I think the answer is yes.
@imafish16 I find it interesting when atheists first say they reject the supernatural because they are following the evidence, but when it comes to free will they reject the evidence (personal experience of free will) in favor of their chosen worldview.
@imafish16 To argue that free will is an illusion makes as much sense as arguing that sight is an illusion. Even if your argument stands unrefuted, it doesn't actually blind you. You still see, even if you claim that you can't. And you still choose, even if you choose to think otherwise.
Avoiding the different kinds of time travel and universes there might be.
The first thing I would do upon receiving a letter predicting a week of my activities is go about doing something uncharacteristic of me as unpredictable as possible but something that should be significant and note worthy. Then open the letter and read that for confirmation. If accurate I would then read the next event and attempt to do something different. If I can do something different. If I can I have free will.
You yourself are making the determinist's argument, saying that God knows how the world will play out. How could this be possible without a set of rules allowing prediction of the next state?
"knowing is not controlling"
I disagree with that statement, since knowing does not directly affect what happens, it will only collapse all of the possible outcomes into the one known outcome. Even if God doesn't leak any knowledge of the future, from God's perspective, people have no free will.
@jcbahr If I watch you make a choice, my watching doesn't change the fact that it is your choice, right? And if I start watching after you have made a choice, so I see the outcome of your choice, you still made that choice in the first place.
God is outside of time, observing all choices. He knows the choices you will make in the future because he is already in the future (in the same sense that he is "in" any time).
Just because he sees what you chose, doesn't mean you didn't choose.
If there are two or more options, there is a choice, necessarily.
If there is but one option, there can be no choice.
Your watching does affect my "choice". If you view it, and I have only one possible course of action, since you've seen what WILL happen, I cannot make a choice.
Viewing does affect whether or not I'm making a choice.
@NaturalEnquirer P.S., if this God has knowledge of every single action, past, present, future, then the only thing we have is the illusion of choice, since real choice would mean there are multiple options available.
This means that a God with complete knowledge of all actions would force a destiny on the universe.
Also, the original video was on negating free-will specifically, which also requires multiple options to make a choice.
@jcbahr If I were your best friend, I might be able to say "I knew you'd respond with something to that effect". Does that mean I made you say it? Or... Does that in anyway detract from the independent thought process by which you came about that conclusion?
@5thWatcher No, the thought processes are the same, but if you were ABSOLUTELY sure that I was going to say it, I would have no choice, even though I would go through the same motions as if I did.
But what is a choice if there is only one possible choice?
There is no choice, although it may seem like one.
When you say that knowledge does not negate free will, you are depending on the idea that having only one possible choice, being physically able (since anything else would not be possible) to do one thing, is the same as free will.
But if free will still exists when you cannot possible do anything different, doesn't free will exist in every scenario?
also, since god not only understands how we work but is responsible for the laws that make us work, is responsible for everything we do, while we are responsible for nothing.
also remembering that some of us are going to burn in hell forever because god wanted these particular laws to be set in place make god a monster.
@Yahwehormyway Yes this does dude, He's saying that you have free will. God just knows what you will do. I have the free will to go jump in front of a train, or i can continue watching youtube videos. Either way, God knows what my final choice is. He isn't forcing anything upon me. He just knows what I will do. Even if he does, that won't change my decision. I will still choose as I wish.
@moemanci The argument is not that god is forcing something upon you, it is that if anyone knows what you will do (your choice is determined), you do not have the ability to choose to do something else. This means that you cannot have different options to choose from, hence "choosing as you wish" is nothing but an illusion.
What someone knows with absolute certainty does not change your decision, it determines you decision.
(BACK TO THE SUBJECT) Free Will-the ability to choose. God's Options:
1. Do what he says. Excuse me. Do what somebody else wrote about a few years back. You know. What they said he said. YAY! It's Heaven time!
2. Don't do what he says. Excuse me. Don't do what somebody else wrote about a few years back. Uh-oh...AAAAHHHH! A huge dab of torture...a large dab of agony...and don't skimp on the pain. Then....burn baby burn! Toasted and Roasted Atheists.
(OFF SUBJECT)1st thing said in this video: "So here's an argument I never want to hear again.." hmmmm. The best way to avoid an argument is to post a video on youtube about it.....wait.....let me think for a second....I might be wrong about that...............
By your own definition, this still negates free will because you DONT have the ability to do anything other than that action that god already knows you will do
It feels like a genuine choice subjectively, but you never had the option.
I dont really understand what he's really saying, but at least he's trying to stop the deception of atheism... However i would like to add that God can do anything he wants to, because he is omnipotent and all powerful. If God wants to play with us like puppets and perform experiments on us, while letting the course of human history progress, that's his decision. But sinse he is LOVE himself, he would only allow experiments to be done with love and care. and thats what we see in the bible.
By the definition of free will you use in 5:24, free will is not compatible with an omnipotent god.
"We can determine the future of events using the said 'free will'", in this model we have the ability to change the future. While in the model of a predetermined future (implied by the existance of an omnipotent god) the future is unchangable.
If it is possible to predict all our choices and then our choices are governed by laws, and therefore not free.
@hubbabubbamax000 The mind willing things is the cause, reason is used by the mind to decide things. The mind is free to decide what it will do. From a materialistic view of things there is no free will, but if you posit the spirit then that would be apart from materiality and therefore free to influence things in the natural world without having to follow natural law. Desires and emotions are perceived by the mind, which then can either go with it or resist.
@Fuglebolle Yea, I suppose you're right. My point is that every single event that ever occurs has a cause, and as you said, if it 'doesn't have a cause' then it's cause is unknown but it still has a cause.
Also, what you're doing here is making up what you want to be true. You say "I believe it works like this".
Youre flat out making up your own version of god & free will to make it suit what you already believe. After I watch a movie, is it fair to say the characters have free will to do something different the next time I watch it? If god knows everything that will happen, it's basically the same situation.
I had to post 2 comments because I posted the first one before i finished the video.
This argument hardly dispoves atheism. At best it weakens one of the many, many arguments that atheists have conerning God's existence or commented characteristisc (omniscience). However, I don't even see this as being the case with this proposed argument.
Before we are born god knows how we will die, this means, since he made us, he is responsible for everything we do. If i murder it's gods fault, if i rape, it's gods fault, if i steal it's gods fault, if i go to hell to get tortured for ever, it's gods fault. So what if we make choices if it was set up in a way that it would be impossible for us to make the right ones?
Their "god" can't see into the future, even their bible states that over and over again. Look at the stories of Cain and Able. Their god gives all glory to Able, none to Cain. And when Cain kills Able, their god asks Cain, "Wheres Able?" and Cain replies with, "I am not my brother's keeper."
If their god can see into the future, then how come he had to ask Cain where Able is?
@bigz547899223 I'm foolish? You just completely ignored everything I said and substituted your own thoughts. I'm not foolish just because you disagree with me. There are not a very many Christian who think that God is directly controlling everyone like puppets, in fact, He says so early on in the Bible, so I started with the assumption that we are not robots and went fromt here. Show me a verse that says otherwise and then you get to call me foolish, you silly MFer.
cont.. more than doing what He has already planned. Free will would only make sense and be worth anything if God has NOT predestined some to heaven and others to hell. It's a massive catch 22. What do you think about that?
@necr0sys What you are responding to is specifically a calvinist viewpoint, and I don't necessarily agree that such a view point is an accurate reflection of what Christianity is. If you can site the specific verse you are talking about then I'll give you my thoughts on it.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James) "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
@5thWatcher It's all really confusing. I mean if God before creating us, knew exactly who would accept Him and reject Him, why still create knowing first of all there would be sin in the world and those who would reject Him will suffer in hell for all eternity? Then if he knew certain people would reject Him, then Jesus really only did die for those who He would call. AGGHH its frustrating, I really wish I knew the answer. It is the one question I cannot find peace with...
@5thWatcher Romans 9:11-24 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Unfortunately you have made a mistake in your argument. There is a logical fallacy evolved when travelling back in time. Please don't use such stupid examples.
JacobusCT 2 days ago
God does not know the future; He made it. God ordained all things. But our mind acts as if I choose as if it I had a will. We must come to acceptance and powerlessness or we struggle with everyday life. Why? we look for a power we can use made from ourselves, but we are always undermined in our determinations regardless of how perfect they seem . Powerlessness is serenity acceptance of a determined will.....act as if you make a difference or to make a difference accept limits and have peace
polopowers1 1 week ago
0:52 - 1:49 - If you (the human observer) know, with absolute certainty, what I'm going to do, then that IS what I'm going to do, by definition.
2:58 - 3:09 - Again, if God 100% knows what you're going to do, then that IS, 100%, what you're going to do. And if you 100% ARE going to do something, that's determinism. They ARE the same thing.
4:05 - 4:16 - But if it's 100% predictable, then it IS deterministic.
Sorry to have so many caps, I'm doing that for emphasis on those specific words.
Venaloid 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from 5thWatcher
The problem of free will doesn't stem just from God knowing the future, but that He is responsible for the creation of everything.
Before He created the universe He knew all of the sins the people in His universe would commit. He knew what the position of every particle in the universe would be at any point in time. He knew I'd type this before He said, "Let there be light".
He knew everything, was responsible for creating everything, and decided it would be exactly this way.
TheMors666 1 month ago
It's not so much omniscience itself, but the combination of omniscience and omnipotence that negates free will, so....
Yeah, that argument still stands.
APaleDot 1 month ago
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gwenshin 1 month ago
and what the FUCK, what are you doing with fancy clothes and expensive furniture. Jesus said "unless you sell everything and give to the poor, you cannot be my disciple". You are a hypocrite and a proud one to. Consider yourself having yet another enemy ;)
soulteachings 1 month ago
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@soulteachings You expect people who call themselves Christian to actually FOLLOW the teachings of Jesus? LOL. Nah, they just like religion as an excuse to condemn people, so they can feel superior for once in their pathetic lives. I gave you a thumbs up.
gwenshin 1 month ago
Gods knowledge of my future free will choices is the same as my free will choices being predetermined. The second I was born, God knew whether or not I would make it into Heaven or Hell (because he could see into my future). So my salvation is therefore predetermined by Gods foreknowledge. Yes I agree, it was still I who made the choices. But it stills make it predeterminism.
soulteachings 1 month ago
Let me ask you a question. How do you know that God doesnt see into your future that you have left the faith, blasphemed God and failed the test? So spare us the arrogance. And BTW, your argument fails so much that I dont even want to bother disputing it.
soulteachings 1 month ago
If the biblical text made sense in defining God, it would not describe him as any of the things in which they use to describe him. The Biblical God can't be loving and omnipotent at the same time. The Biblical God can not be Omnipresent and have even a single spokesperson at the same time (See definition of Omnipresent). Jesus is not admirable as he gave guidelines for owning slaves rather than standing up and apposing slavery, he and god are one and the same therefore he was the same who....
Vottaro 2 months ago
@Vottaro Promoted pedophilia in the bible (See here Numbers 31:1-18, the cultural thing of this time is of coarse that all warriors were male and "THE LORD" said to take every young girl for yourselves who has not slept with a man, this is is repulsive especially when all the young boys were killed meaning that it wasn't chores they were taking them for to be accomplished, it was sexual pleasure as homosexuality was deemed a sin. The bible is a travesty for the human race...............
Vottaro 2 months ago
@Vottaro it has inspired many genocides throughout the ages and needs to be taken far away from being an influence on society. As long as people refer to this evil book as a life guide book and 100% never changing truth, inevitably so, it will be used to inspire the evils it promotes in modern or future times.
Vottaro 2 months ago
We have a choice, it's just known by something what that choice will be before we make it. You go on to say it's something that he more...knows slightly about what will happen then you're saying he's not omnipotent. Plus if he is all powerful then he should have known exactly how genetic traits would have been passed down and how our minds would work from the original people which he created, and had he not created them in the way he did we wouldn't be who we are.
godofthunder2 3 months ago
This for me goes back to when god created the earth, he knew what each of us would even do, at any point, why would he create something that he loves, and doesn't want to suffer when he can see that there will be some that stray and turn against him? If we go to original sin then he should have known eve was going to eat of the forbidden fruit and he "trusted" her then was...seemingly shocked since he punished her for doing what he knew she would.
godofthunder2 3 months ago
The fact that you put "disproving atheism" in the title tells me you know little about what atheism is.
Z0mbeSlayer 3 months ago
except time isn't linear, there isn't one "future".
abarbar06 3 months ago
ah, but what about this all powerful creator stuff. god can do anything right? and has created everything and set every event into motion great and small... would seem that if this is so, that he is playing GI Joe and i am a cobra guy and there simply to lose so the good guys have something to win. if i could travel into the future and record you, and i also created and utterly control every atom in existance, i wouldnt need to time travel to know what you gona do.
HolyHogShit 4 months ago
being omniscient(what i think you meant) alone is not a problem. But being omniscient and omnipotent is.He knows that you are gonna get yourself sent to hell yet creates a world in where it happens anyways.Yeah there is some free will in there but ultimately he has created something doomed to suffer.It is more of a matter of flawed design rather than NO free will,there is a lack but not none.
sailornaruto39 5 months ago
@sailornaruto39 it is like god is playing with GI Joe dolls. but i just said that a few moments ago.
HolyHogShit 4 months ago
@sailornaruto39
Ganstaz003 3 months ago
@Ganstaz003 what a thoughtful comment
sailornaruto39 3 months ago
@sailornaruto39 Yes I apologize. I sent the comment by mistake so I hope we can get over it.
Ganstaz003 3 months ago
@Ganstaz003 yah i figured as much, i was just joking around XD
sailornaruto39 3 months ago
Jessalon is correct; you oughtta get a little more respect for ppl bro.
xSHNVDx 6 months ago
@xSHNVDx You too will someday get jokes.
5thWatcher 6 months ago
@5thWatcher ...They have different amounts of truth and falsehood in different combinations in 'em. Anyway, I could usually tell which was true, and which was not fairly well.
meteosurreal 6 months ago
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omgwtfbbqalekx 3 months ago
When you travel ahead in time, assuming you are being serious about this and are moving at a speed close to that of light, you reach the future and yes you can see what I did. But you can not go back in time. It creates major paradoxes. Even if you can, when you travel back and come to me, this set of action was absent in the original reality that you left to travel time. When you come back, you could have changed initial conditions in the universe, and so my choices from then could be different
wonderouswonderloo 8 months ago
but the point is you still can't do otherwise. Christians always like to attack this agument by making up a phantom premise "knowing is doing" and then attacking that strawman into a lifeless pile of straw. The argument just points out the fact that you can't do otherwise, because if you did God would have been wrong, and is therefore not all knowing. That means we would all be predetermined to act one way in every situation, but this does not mean we're always coerced.
Aphex217Twin 8 months ago
@Aphex217Twin well not really can't just won't
sailornaruto39 5 months ago
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Isaiah 55:8-9: God said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than earth so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts are your thoughts!"
NO ONE CAN THE DEBATE ABOUT PRESDESTINATION. You get saved from knowing Christ not knowing presdestination.
ICarnagezI 8 months ago
I used to be a christian but now I'm an Atheist. Why? Because I tried to defend my belief against any and everything that opposed it. I found that by fighting for god, and being a missionary was the only evidence of god i had. That goes for everything even atheism. A belief is a thing it's like a bike or a house, it's just a thing. Don't let things rule your life.
kelloggs19 8 months ago 2
Do you still believe that claim to be valid?
MyContext 8 months ago
One question. How does proving the ability of an omniscient God to bestow free-will disprove atheism? In the best case scenario, even if you are 100% right, you have merely proved the plausibility of a God, you didn't disprove that there was no God. You didn't prove that God existed, nor did you prove that atheism is incorrect. Your video name is a logical fallacy.
AnonymousDivine 9 months ago
If you went to the future and saw what I was going to do and then told me, the first thing I would do is not do a few of them - negating that future. Also you keep saying omniPOTENT, when you should be saying omniSCIENT. Please buy a clue. And it's a contradiction for a god to be both at the same time, just as we can't have an omniscient being and be truly free.
Why would an omniscient being DO anything - it knows how all outcomes otherwise it's not, well, all-knowing
bannor99 9 months ago
#2
his knowledge of that event be wrong? Can god's omniscience be wrong, ever? No, not according to scripture. Again, if his future knowledge is accurate, then isn't god's perfect knowledge of the future cause predestiny? Don't the people that god saw in hell, have to go? Can they say I'm going to change my life and be Born Again, & will that invalidate what god saw? Or, is god's perfect knowledge of the future...perfect & true?
See the problem with your version?
Are u intellectually honest?
Cootabux 10 months ago
#1
You kept using yourself as an example of knowing the future it wouldn't affect our choices. But god would be a different matter.
Supposedly god is perfect. If he is omniscient, and omnipotent (which is a logical contradiction)...lets just say he's omniscient 4 argument's sake. Before he created us, he looks into the future and sees who goes to hell. Is his knowledge of that future vision accurate? Can god know who's going to hell before it happens just by wanting to know? If so, then how can
Cootabux 10 months ago
Dude you are not endearing yourself to atheists. You are not showing humility. You are coming off like a jerk.
jessalon 10 months ago
@jessalon Your face is a jerk?
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@5thWatcher The Bible tells us that humility honors others rather than ourselves: "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves" (Philippians 2:3).
Do you believe the bible is the word of God? If so then I think you missed a few things.
jessalon 10 months ago
@jessalon Someday you'll get jokes.
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@5thWatcher and someday you'll get laid.
sorry, couldn't resist and I'm obviously just kidding :) But you have to admit, you basically set yourself up for that one.
joe1234567890i 8 months ago
@jessalon Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
starsalt9 7 months ago
@jessalon Do you/do you plan on killing your disobedient children? Do you believe the bible is the word of God? If so then I think you missed a few things.
starsalt9 7 months ago
@starsalt9 Shall I also keep slaves and treat them well? Things get a little dicey when you quote the old testament for the reason that Jesus abolished a lot of practices with His very blood. If you cannot grasp the idea of substitution then I don't know what else I can say. I can say that before Jesus came it was eye for an eye. But Jesus through the merit of his sacrifice turned the world's rules that some men even exploited for gain on it's head.
jessalon 7 months ago
@jessalon I was only pointing out that there are atrocities & contradictions all over the place in the bible. It's your job as Christians to cherry pick the parts of the bible you want to follow, in fact, it's the only measure you can take without doing some crazy double-thinking. Don't throw bible verses at people when there's probably a bible verse that contradicts it somewhere else in the bible.
starsalt9 7 months ago
@starsalt9 A lot of things in the bible that bother people so much are usually examples of blood for sin. In the old testament if you don't ever repent of your sins it could cost you your life. Goats and cattle endured blood sacrifice for the sake of the sins of the people. Jesus' blood was the ultimate blood sacrifice. I know all about the nasty bloody truths of the old testament and these things are the very reason I'm thankful for my faith. I don't cherry pick. I read it all.
jessalon 7 months ago
@jessalon What a sadistic sounding god. Whoever wrote that shit was insane.
starsalt9 7 months ago
@starsalt9 People are mostly offended by the idea of God because they don't want to be accountable for anything they do ever. So they will find every excuse as to why they think it's untrue or "I don't want to believe in a God that (insert whatever your reasons are.)" I can't tell you how to live your life and wouldn't presume to, but I have a right to my life changing faith. I won't be answering anything else you say because it will go no where.
jessalon 7 months ago
@jessalon Arguing about religion never gets anyone anywhere, it's just an interesting topic, but typically people are too threaded into their beliefs to see any other belief or disbelief as possible. I'm not an Atheist because I don't want to follow the bible, I'm an Atheist because religion is fucking up the whole world and I see no scientific evidence to believe it, thank you very much.
starsalt9 7 months ago
@jessalon Are you serious? Christianity is built on a man dying for YOUR SINS. If someone dying for your fuck ups is you not taking responsibility then what is? If someone was a rapist but then they decide to get saved can they not still go to heaven? You what to know what else is weird. In your Bible your God is limited to what mankind knew at that time. It says that the world is 6000 years old, the earth is flat, that people were sick because of demonic possession. Coincidence? I think not.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Where does it say 6000 years old and that the earth was flat? And it never says people get sick because of demonic possession, its clear jesus healed sickness with out demonic possession. Sounds to me someone has been reading what some early catholic crap
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp9 Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the tem
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 ptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...” You should read your bible at little more and apply some rational thought to it. It might actual help. :)
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38). Are you being serious? Or have you just never read your bible? So His fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought to Him all the sick, those who were afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics, and He cured them (Matthew 4:24). Are you forreal?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Or is that how you like to intrepret it so it fits your cause, the bible never dates the earth, and sure it says adam is the first man what does that have to do with anything? It proves nothing. And can you not read? and they brought to Him all the SICK, those who were afflicted with various DISEASES and PAINS, demoniacs, EPILEPTICS, and PARALYTICS, and He cured them. Demoniacs is just one of the MANY things he cured,
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 If you read the bible you would know when Adam was created it was 4001 B.C. Google it if you don't know. Did you not see the (4000 B.C.) next to it? Obviously YOU can't read. DEMONIAC DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST. They were comparing a non-existent "illness" to disease. They were saying that it was the same thing. If you can't say that than you really need to go back to school. Please don't try to criticize me on bible validity because I will pull out scriptures that you'll say aren't valid.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause In my bible (The NIV & ESV, I looked in both) It never gives a date, therefor i can only say that what your saying is based on something else. As for comparing it to a non-Existant Illness to disease, its a list meaning they are seperate. And im jsut showing you what you are saying isnt biblical.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 It never said it exactly. Obviously you have never RESEARCHED your bible. I think before we even have this conversation any further you need to read your bible and then research it. Because obviously it's either A. You don't really know about it. B. You don't know that you don't have to directly say something for it to mean it. You can imply things.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause How is it implied? please tell me, the verse you gave me is just a bloodline.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Sons born, 130 + 105 + 90 + 70 + 65 + 162 + 65 + 187 + 182 = 1056 [ Adam dies year and age 930 [ 3136 BC ]. Noah born, year 1056, age 600, Gen.7:6; in the flood, Noah has 350 years life, Gen.9:28,29; and Noah dies year 2006, [ 2060 BC ].
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Ok, know that it is a rough estimate but i accept it, It doesnt mean that the earth is only that old, who is to say that the earth wasent around for a while before god made humans? And dont say 6 days, becasue we should all understand that An eternal god's 6 days are different than our 6 days.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Are you serious right now? So your gods six days are magically longer now? Theist just amaze me. Whenever you use logic or reasoning against them, they say "That doesn't apply to god" It's some kind of get out of jail free card when they have no answer. Like if you ask who made god they say "God made himself." or "God was always there." Anyways you still can't go under the assumption that his days are different than ours. Unless you have evidence. Until then we have to stick with ours.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Its not magicly longer, but Something that is not bound by time does not have to submit to time, He is not subjected to. Im gonna get technical. We know that energy can not be created or destroyed, First law of thermodynamics, E=MC^2, . Thus All mass has energy. To say there is no god is to say matter/energy came into existance out of nothing. Which is a logic fail. The other option is that is is eternal, which still does not make sence because it is bound in space time, cont.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Because you know that time is simply change, meaning as long as there is change there is time. Thus matter can not have just always existed because logicly time can not have always existed. TIME IS NOT ETERNAL. an infininte amount of time cant pass, that is illogical. SInce time is not eternal it to must have been created. the bible says that god created everything but was not bound by it. thus god is eternal and does not need a creator.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 So you are using the bible as a reference to prove god? Lol. Good job. Let's assume we don't know how the universe was created. That does NOT mean it has to be your god now. That is an argument from ignorance. It is not an A or B question. There are many more theories and many more gods which you would have to discredit first. Then you would have to prove your god for your argument to be valid.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Dont worry about what god, just a god. Thats what is important right now. Besides all religions have their creation story, so, it is a valid arguement. I agree that there are many choices for religion, im just pointing out that there is logicly a god.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 You can't say a god till you disprove the other theories. What does all religions having a creation story have to do with anything? They are all DIFFERENT. So no. It is not valid. Oh yes. I'm sorry to tell you not all religions have a creation story. WHAT? How are you pointing out that logically there's a god? There is no logical explanation for the sort. If you logically can point out there is a god, YOU WILL BE THE FIRST EVER. So go ahead and try.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause I dident prove a religion, i simply said logicly that there is a god, never mind that there are other religions, look at the evidence, A god IS logical, not proven, but LOGICAL. How would you explain the universe? How would you explain how you came to be?
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 That's the problem. IT IS NOT LOGICAL. Please don't try to use the god of the gaps. Because that is an argument from ignorance. You're trying to say just because we don't know how the universe was created that it has to be a god. Which is not true at all. All that means is WE DON'T KNOW. It's that simple. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you can just assume it was something else without any reason besides the fact it's not something else. It's not A or B. There are
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 more choices.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause What does that even mean? You know I have presented a logical god, You cant say that my logic is flawed? There is a god, face it, if you would like to discuss a Christian God please meassage me personaly.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Let me put it simple for you. You have NOT presented ANY evidence for a god. Disproving something is not proof of something else. You don't have any logic, if you do go ahead and try to post it. Your ONLY argument so far is that if we don't know how something works than it must be god. Which is an argument from ignorance. The only thing it proves if we don't know something is that WE DON'T KNOW and still need to look into it more to find out.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause So ignorant in the face of logic, something cant come out of nothing, That something can not be eternal, becasue with out that something time does not exist, and if it is eternal, time is infininte which is Illogical, Thus implying a higher power not bound by time and space, E.g. God. Call it what you will, and dont worry about religion, you should see that a god is logical, NOT proven, but logical.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Why can't something come from nothing? And if we do ASSUME that's true there are also other theories that don't involve the big bang(something coming from nothing as you so overly simplified it.). So what's your point?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Something cant come from nothing becase it is ILLOGICAL. Science cant give us a answer on the origin of Matter/Energy because to do so would A) Prove God, B) Disprove all physical laws we know, C) Invalidate the scientific process itself. I dont care about a big bang or any theroy really, it implies that something came from nothing or that this specific something is eternal, ILLOGICAL. Tell me, How do YOU think we came to be?
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 DIDN'T I ALREADY SAY THIS? It's as simple as this READ CAREFULLY. Just because we don't know the answer for something DOESN'T not mean it must be a god. That is an argument from ignorance and what primitive societies would do when they couldn't find the answer to something. Such as the sun, they would blame it on the Sun god and sacrifice innocent people to this thing. It's as simple as this just because it doesn't equal "x" doesn't mean it's "y", Many different answers.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Sorry, Youtube is being stupid. And its not god of the gaps, i think science complemetns god, this is not god of the gaps, with every new discovery we come closer to knowing god in all his fullness, so in a way, every discovery shows us how god works.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 No IT DOESN'T. Please don't try to come from an emotional approach. Science DOES NOT complement god. Don't try to take the credit away from the scientists who actually WORK to figure this stuff out and discover new things to some god. How do they help prove god? If anything they DISPROVE a god.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause And there is your problem, Your emotions dont want there to be a god, mine do, I have What i see as logic to believe in such a god, you dont like my logic. You want science to disprove god, i think it does the oppisite. Thats the problem we have sir, not one of us will ever know untill the day we die if there is a god, the difference between you and me is i have faith.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Actually I WANT to believe in a god. The same I WANT to believe in Santa. It would be amazing if there were magical people out there given us things and helping us. I would LOVE that. But that's just not the case. You haven't presented LOGIC. When did I say I wanted science to disprove god? The majority of scientists don't believe in a god. Yes you do have faith. Which isn't a god thing. I'd never have FAITH in something without clear evidence of it. That's what a kid does.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause I have presented Logic, go back and read it. And I have tried to respond to your questions, Tell me. HOW DO YOU THINIK WE WERE CREATED?
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 No you haven't, if you have then go ahead and present. I've answered this question AT LEAST THREE FUCKING TIMES. I DON'T KNOW and neither do you. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it must be something else. That is an argument from ignorance.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause I ask because you havent answered me, so whatever you think, or dont, is just as non-evidence based as me. And i dont know, But i find a god more logical, than random chance. you would have to believe in the unusual set of circumstances that allowed life to begin. First matter would have had to innately existed before life.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 CAN YOU NOT READ? THE ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW. But that is not the basis to present your god. READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW SOMETHING IS CREATED DOES NOT MEAN IT'S GOD. Who said it happened by random chance? You do realize that's not the only theory in the world correct? So you think an invisible magical being is more probably than chance? You are extremely deluded from reality if so.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause If you dont know what you think, then Your worse off than me.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 How do I no know what I think? I said I don't know how the universe was created. No one does. Are you really this thick-headed or are you joking?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 When did I say I don't know what I think? You asked how the universe came to be.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause If you have absolutley no theory on how the universe came to be, you have become irrelevant because you have no basis for beliefe, you believe nothing therefore im not going to try to use logic to get to my point. Because you simply will reject that theroy and counter with a different one. You need to look at the theory's i would say the big bang is the most logical. You need to figure out what you think before you challange some one else.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 1. How have I become irrelevant? You do realize if you don't know something the correct way is TO SAY I DON'T KNOW. Don't just come up with a false theory. The big bang is the most logical theory but that doesn't mean it's true. WE DON'T KNOW HOW THE UNIVERSE CAME TO BE. You haven't used logic this ENTIRE ARGUMENT. You simply tried to argue from ignorance. I know what I think. I think that we don't know WHO created the universe. THUS WE SHOULD LOOK MORE BEFORE MAKING THEORIES.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 See that's the difference between YOU and ME. If you see something you jump to an conclusion without having any evidence because you don't have any other explanations. That's what an ignorant person does. If you don't know something YOU SHOULD LOOK INTO IT and actually find out about. Instead of just asserting dumb-ass theories. If you have ANY logical theories go ahead and try to present them now.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Big bang, we know the universe is everexpanding, so if we go backwards it logicly comes to one point, logicly the big bang wins. So then we ask the question where did that matter come from? It either was created, which we know by the first law of thermodynamics is impossiable, or it has always been, and because were bound by space/time that is illogical because time is finite. So then we have to look out side of space time, E.g. God, or call it what you will. thats LOGICAL
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 So if time is finite then why couldn't it have been there from the beginning of time? How could something survive outside of time and space? What proof do you have that this thing actually created the universe? Why does it have to be the big bang? There are more theories than the big bang.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Time is the measure of change of something, nothing to change, no time. And it is only logical unless you plan on rewritting physics. And i think i did a good job justifying the big bang.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Time is a part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change such as the motions of objects. Please don't redefine time for your own use. I think the problem here is your misunderstanding of the big bang or science. You are saying it HAD to be your god when it doesn't. That is an argument from ignorance. You have no other explanation so now you are saying it's god? That's incorrect.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause And im sorry, youtube is being stupid and not telling me about other posts you have made, so Im sorry if it seems im behind you or not getting one of your points. And i dident redefine time, you agree it is a measure of change. and im open to other ideas, i just find a god, or what ever you want to call it logical.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 It is not. God is just an idea for people who need something to help them explain things they do not know. Instead of say I don't know or I may need to look into that more. They rather just say it's some kind of god. It's what's holding us back as a society. This is what PRIMITIVE societies use to do. They could not understand something so they just said it was a god. Because they wanted to give the false illusion that they actually know this stuff. Because knowledge=power.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause If thats what you think thats fine. Thing is your never going to know 100% about the origin of the universe, so pick a theory thats most logical. I find a god, the most logical. If you can prove my logic wrong, then i would rethink what i believe, but the thing is, you cant.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 See that's the problem. You don't HAVE to pick one. Difference between an Atheist and a Theist. Instead of you saying you don't know. You'd rather just pick something. Of course I can't prove a god is not real. Just like I can't prove Santa isn't real. The thing about your god is it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. So that's another thing that goes against him. Oh yeah. I have an invisible T-Rex in my backyard. Prove me wrong,you can't.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Its a sad existance if you cant make inferences. but i wish you the best, and thanks for staying civilized through this conversation, some people (athiest and thiest alike) dont seem to know how to do that. I really enjoy these conversations, even if youtube is stupid and wont let me see all your posts. Thanks for Challenging what i think, andi hope i did the same to you.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Same to you. At least you attempted to present a logical explanation and argument. Instead of saying God is real because he is real.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 I think the you don't understand is you're pretty much saying that there's no other way that YOU THINK this could have happened so you think it's god. That is a fallacy and an argument from ignorance. Just like your god is supernatural and unexplainable. How do you know something else didn't happen that was supernatural and unexplainable?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Thats right, its my theory, cant be proven, but so little in this life can be. And i dont know that something else happened that was suppernatural and unexplainable but that sounds suspicisly like a god to me. Word to the wise, Have a theory of your own before you challange someone elses. Very little in this life can be proven past "I think therefore I am", so you need some faith in something, maybe not god, but something.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 So I can't challenge religions because I don't have one. I like your logic. Lol. This entire conversation has really showed me what religion truly does to a human being. It actually scares me that someone can seriously think like this. Actually EVERYTHING in this life can be proven. Lol. Are you being serious right now? You don't need faith, you need EVIDENCE. Faith is used for those who are gullible. I don't have faith in something. I want actual evidence. I'm not a little kid.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause I ask you to challage yourself, Look at the evidence you think disproves god, seriously look, i want you to challage your beliefe, if you come to the same conclusion you hold now, thats fine, but i suspect if you give it a true look you would come to a different conclusion.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 I can't challenge nothing. I think the problem here is you don't understand Atheism. Atheism is the lack of believe in god from LACK OF EVIDENCE. It's not that we have evidence that he DOESN'T exist. No one has evidence that he DOES. So the default position is DOESN'T. Until you provide evidence. The same way that if I tell you that I'm 8 ft , your default position would be I'm lying until I brought proof of some kind or showed you. If you believe me, that just means you're gullible.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Then something would have had to trigger the "BB" which allowed the Universe and our Earth to form. From said explosion there had to be an exact amount of gasses that could have formed an atmosphere capable of supporting life that was not to acidic or close to the Sun. To add to these complexities life would have had to form from single celled organisms that would have had to "fuze" together in order to have more than one nucleus. So yea its not just evidence its faith to.
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 Who said that I believe in the big bang?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@KingWithoutaCause Then what do you think?
MrWarp94 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 I DON'T KNOW. No one KNOWS for sure. The Big Bang is just a THEORY made from the evidence that we have now. We don't know. That does not mean that your god did it. That is an argument from ignorance. Which part do you not get?
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
@MrWarp94 See that's the difference between an Atheist and Theist. We make our claims due to EVIDENCE AND PROOF. If you can provide some new proof or evidence of something we will change our claims. Theist try to assert something because they don't understand it. Let me give you an example. If you see a dog outside of your house and you think it's your neighbors and it's not does that mean it has to be your other neighbor? NO. There are different places it could have came from. Too many to know.
KingWithoutaCause 6 months ago
If god is omniscient, then he knows what choice you will make. that does negate free as god knew, even before you were a twinkle in your father's eye, what you were going to do. if you were going to change you mind about something, god knows that too. that means you can't make a choice without god knowing what it is going to be as you were predestined by god's omniscience. predestination=no free will
travmanbw43 10 months ago
cont: this guy also thinks a little too highly of his intellect. trust me, if you were as smart as you think you were, you would know that everything said in this video is complete bullshit. also, you talk of time travel as if it is real. time travel, like god, cannot exist in the universe as they both create at least one paradox. you also fail to realize that had you given the person the letter at the beginning of the week, they could have changed their activities to something else.
travmanbw43 10 months ago
@travmanbw43 this is because there is no god, and that is why we have free will. if there were a god, he would know you were time traveleing, taking note of another's actions, telling that person their action, etc, and if you gave the person the note before the week started, he would know if that person would change their mind.
travmanbw43 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Epic fail.... you don't understand all the words you used in the title of your video.
Omnipotence = all powerful, (i.e. controls everything)
Omniscient = all knowing
If God of the Bible is is all powerful then by definition you cannot have free will.
SoulSurvivor1652 10 months ago
Comment removed
SoulSurvivor1652 10 months ago
For me the freewill argument is something different.
What I'm talking about is when people say "God has a plan for everybody".
If they said God knows what youre gonna do before you do it I wouldnt even bother with an argument.
DeadJ0ker27 10 months ago
I am one of those people that you were talking about, and I will argue this briefly. Using what I commonly hear from religious folk, ie "god's plan" and "he works in mysterious ways". Putting these two concepts together with pre-determinism, would you not think that god may alter the environment in such a way to make those who start veering off course to fall back into line. Just some food for thought.
devicemangler 11 months ago
@devicemangler I am sure he's at least capable. But Biblically, God has sai that not how he rolls.
5thWatcher 10 months ago
I'm an atheist and i don't believe we have free will because time is a set path. Its a never ending reel of film which we only see a frame at a time. Humans are complex and are deep thinkers. but when you break it down, we are only particles and waves interacting through time as simply as the planets orbiting the sun. Your thinking "your wrong, i can do whatever i want" and maybe you will do something spontaneous to prove it. but your spontaneous action no big deal on the subatomic level
imafish16 11 months ago
@imafish16 Well I don't think free will cares much about the sub-atomic level. The question is, do we have the ability to makes choices within our means? And I think the answer is yes.
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@imafish16 I find it interesting when atheists first say they reject the supernatural because they are following the evidence, but when it comes to free will they reject the evidence (personal experience of free will) in favor of their chosen worldview.
NaturalEnquirer 10 months ago
@imafish16 To argue that free will is an illusion makes as much sense as arguing that sight is an illusion. Even if your argument stands unrefuted, it doesn't actually blind you. You still see, even if you claim that you can't. And you still choose, even if you choose to think otherwise.
NaturalEnquirer 10 months ago
@NaturalEnquirer calm down big guy
imafish16 10 months ago
@imafish16 :)
NaturalEnquirer 10 months ago
Avoiding the different kinds of time travel and universes there might be.
The first thing I would do upon receiving a letter predicting a week of my activities is go about doing something uncharacteristic of me as unpredictable as possible but something that should be significant and note worthy. Then open the letter and read that for confirmation. If accurate I would then read the next event and attempt to do something different. If I can do something different. If I can I have free will.
ekpil2000 11 months ago
You yourself are making the determinist's argument, saying that God knows how the world will play out. How could this be possible without a set of rules allowing prediction of the next state?
"knowing is not controlling"
I disagree with that statement, since knowing does not directly affect what happens, it will only collapse all of the possible outcomes into the one known outcome. Even if God doesn't leak any knowledge of the future, from God's perspective, people have no free will.
jcbahr 1 year ago
@jcbahr If I watch you make a choice, my watching doesn't change the fact that it is your choice, right? And if I start watching after you have made a choice, so I see the outcome of your choice, you still made that choice in the first place.
God is outside of time, observing all choices. He knows the choices you will make in the future because he is already in the future (in the same sense that he is "in" any time).
Just because he sees what you chose, doesn't mean you didn't choose.
NaturalEnquirer 11 months ago
@NaturalEnquirer I disagree with your first statement.
If there are two or more options, there is a choice, necessarily.
If there is but one option, there can be no choice.
Your watching does affect my "choice". If you view it, and I have only one possible course of action, since you've seen what WILL happen, I cannot make a choice.
Viewing does affect whether or not I'm making a choice.
jcbahr 11 months ago
@jcbahr You'd have to get more specific, but in the end, you could chose not to care that I am watching.
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@NaturalEnquirer P.S., if this God has knowledge of every single action, past, present, future, then the only thing we have is the illusion of choice, since real choice would mean there are multiple options available.
This means that a God with complete knowledge of all actions would force a destiny on the universe.
Also, the original video was on negating free-will specifically, which also requires multiple options to make a choice.
jcbahr 11 months ago
@NaturalEnquirer This is the thing that I was saying. I'm glad someone is down. :-)
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@jcbahr If I were your best friend, I might be able to say "I knew you'd respond with something to that effect". Does that mean I made you say it? Or... Does that in anyway detract from the independent thought process by which you came about that conclusion?
5thWatcher 10 months ago
@5thWatcher No, the thought processes are the same, but if you were ABSOLUTELY sure that I was going to say it, I would have no choice, even though I would go through the same motions as if I did.
jcbahr 10 months ago
@jcbahr
I disagree even with your premise. It hink my reasons why are present in the video. That might put us at an em-pass.
5thWatcher 10 months ago
But what is a choice if there is only one possible choice?
There is no choice, although it may seem like one.
When you say that knowledge does not negate free will, you are depending on the idea that having only one possible choice, being physically able (since anything else would not be possible) to do one thing, is the same as free will.
But if free will still exists when you cannot possible do anything different, doesn't free will exist in every scenario?
jcbahr 1 year ago
also, since god not only understands how we work but is responsible for the laws that make us work, is responsible for everything we do, while we are responsible for nothing.
also remembering that some of us are going to burn in hell forever because god wanted these particular laws to be set in place make god a monster.
De4sher 1 year ago
you lack a brain and here's why:
did god know what would happen before creating the universe? yes.
could he have created it so that people wouldn't end up in hell? yes.
free will is thus irrelevant, and god is therefore a sick monster.
De4sher 1 year ago
Nice try, but you cant disprove the lack of a belief in something. Guess you chrisitans didnt listen in science class.
travman1987 1 year ago
God live's.....so do we.We live.....so does God.
TOLTECAAZTECA 1 year ago
@Yahwehormyway Yes this does dude, He's saying that you have free will. God just knows what you will do. I have the free will to go jump in front of a train, or i can continue watching youtube videos. Either way, God knows what my final choice is. He isn't forcing anything upon me. He just knows what I will do. Even if he does, that won't change my decision. I will still choose as I wish.
moemanci 1 year ago
@moemanci The argument is not that god is forcing something upon you, it is that if anyone knows what you will do (your choice is determined), you do not have the ability to choose to do something else. This means that you cannot have different options to choose from, hence "choosing as you wish" is nothing but an illusion.
What someone knows with absolute certainty does not change your decision, it determines you decision.
Fuglebolle 1 year ago
(BACK TO THE SUBJECT) Free Will-the ability to choose. God's Options:
1. Do what he says. Excuse me. Do what somebody else wrote about a few years back. You know. What they said he said. YAY! It's Heaven time!
2. Don't do what he says. Excuse me. Don't do what somebody else wrote about a few years back. Uh-oh...AAAAHHHH! A huge dab of torture...a large dab of agony...and don't skimp on the pain. Then....burn baby burn! Toasted and Roasted Atheists.
How kind of him to give us a choice....
tntitan1115 1 year ago
(OFF SUBJECT)1st thing said in this video: "So here's an argument I never want to hear again.." hmmmm. The best way to avoid an argument is to post a video on youtube about it.....wait.....let me think for a second....I might be wrong about that...............
tntitan1115 1 year ago
By your own definition, this still negates free will because you DONT have the ability to do anything other than that action that god already knows you will do
It feels like a genuine choice subjectively, but you never had the option.
Yahwehormyway 1 year ago
I dont really understand what he's really saying, but at least he's trying to stop the deception of atheism... However i would like to add that God can do anything he wants to, because he is omnipotent and all powerful. If God wants to play with us like puppets and perform experiments on us, while letting the course of human history progress, that's his decision. But sinse he is LOVE himself, he would only allow experiments to be done with love and care. and thats what we see in the bible.
Nashhinton 1 year ago
By the definition of free will you use in 5:24, free will is not compatible with an omnipotent god.
"We can determine the future of events using the said 'free will'", in this model we have the ability to change the future. While in the model of a predetermined future (implied by the existance of an omnipotent god) the future is unchangable.
If it is possible to predict all our choices and then our choices are governed by laws, and therefore not free.
Fuglebolle 1 year ago
Sorry but free will is literally impossible. Nothing happens without cause. Even if something happens with no cause, the "no cause" is a cause.
hubbabubbamax000 1 year ago
@hubbabubbamax000 The mind willing things is the cause, reason is used by the mind to decide things. The mind is free to decide what it will do. From a materialistic view of things there is no free will, but if you posit the spirit then that would be apart from materiality and therefore free to influence things in the natural world without having to follow natural law. Desires and emotions are perceived by the mind, which then can either go with it or resist.
danmeast 1 year ago
@danmeast No.
hubbabubbamax000 1 year ago
@hubbabubbamax000 'no cause' is per definition not a 'cause'. In everyday speech, however, 'no cause' means 'we don't know the cause'.
Fuglebolle 1 year ago
@Fuglebolle Yea, I suppose you're right. My point is that every single event that ever occurs has a cause, and as you said, if it 'doesn't have a cause' then it's cause is unknown but it still has a cause.
hubbabubbamax000 1 year ago
Comment removed
hubbabubbamax000 1 year ago
Also, what you're doing here is making up what you want to be true. You say "I believe it works like this".
Youre flat out making up your own version of god & free will to make it suit what you already believe. After I watch a movie, is it fair to say the characters have free will to do something different the next time I watch it? If god knows everything that will happen, it's basically the same situation.
I had to post 2 comments because I posted the first one before i finished the video.
Zentz29 1 year ago
If god knows exactly what will happen from the beginning to the end of my life, it's going to happen that no matter what I do.
If I can't change the way my life will play out, I do NOT have free will.
If god doesn't already know how my life will play out, he's NOT omniscient.
Also, you are saying "omnipotent" while that has NOTHING to do with knowing the future. You meant "omniscient".
Zentz29 1 year ago
This argument hardly dispoves atheism. At best it weakens one of the many, many arguments that atheists have conerning God's existence or commented characteristisc (omniscience). However, I don't even see this as being the case with this proposed argument.
vryc 1 year ago
Rubbish - So we are all 'choosing' these/those choices that God only knows when we choose them.
Illogical owing to a God not knowing something.
Yet again contradicting his omniscience.
31428571J 1 year ago
Before we are born god knows how we will die, this means, since he made us, he is responsible for everything we do. If i murder it's gods fault, if i rape, it's gods fault, if i steal it's gods fault, if i go to hell to get tortured for ever, it's gods fault. So what if we make choices if it was set up in a way that it would be impossible for us to make the right ones?
TheWordsNotSpoken 1 year ago
Their "god" can't see into the future, even their bible states that over and over again. Look at the stories of Cain and Able. Their god gives all glory to Able, none to Cain. And when Cain kills Able, their god asks Cain, "Wheres Able?" and Cain replies with, "I am not my brother's keeper."
If their god can see into the future, then how come he had to ask Cain where Able is?
secretk33per 1 year ago
@bigz547899223 I'm foolish? You just completely ignored everything I said and substituted your own thoughts. I'm not foolish just because you disagree with me. There are not a very many Christian who think that God is directly controlling everyone like puppets, in fact, He says so early on in the Bible, so I started with the assumption that we are not robots and went fromt here. Show me a verse that says otherwise and then you get to call me foolish, you silly MFer.
5thWatcher 1 year ago
cont.. more than doing what He has already planned. Free will would only make sense and be worth anything if God has NOT predestined some to heaven and others to hell. It's a massive catch 22. What do you think about that?
necr0sys 1 year ago
@necr0sys What you are responding to is specifically a calvinist viewpoint, and I don't necessarily agree that such a view point is an accurate reflection of what Christianity is. If you can site the specific verse you are talking about then I'll give you my thoughts on it.
5thWatcher 1 year ago
@5thWatcher Thanks for your reply.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James) "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
necr0sys 1 year ago
@necr0sys This one doesn't necessarily imply certain people are barred from salvation. It doesn't say certain people were chosen NOT to be saved.
5thWatcher 1 year ago
@5thWatcher It's all really confusing. I mean if God before creating us, knew exactly who would accept Him and reject Him, why still create knowing first of all there would be sin in the world and those who would reject Him will suffer in hell for all eternity? Then if he knew certain people would reject Him, then Jesus really only did die for those who He would call. AGGHH its frustrating, I really wish I knew the answer. It is the one question I cannot find peace with...
necr0sys 1 year ago
@5thWatcher Romans 9:11-24 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
necr0sys 1 year ago