Jesus' Resurrection - medical objections to 'swoon' theory

[oombuddah]

I'll wait till you finish then..as for the 'deception' argument, come on that's a bit silly. Type this in on google, it's by bassam zawadi of call to monotheism:

"Whose Religion Teaches An Incompetent Messiah, Group of Disciples And God?"

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah - My point has nothing to do with an "incompetent Messiah", but I will still peruse Zawadi's article when I have the time, but I doubt I will find anything that makes a way around the things that are clearly written in the Quran, or the problems raised by your argumentation that Allah could have intervened by keeping Jesus alive, but still went on to let the Disciples believe He died, and further let them preach the Risen Jesus, founding a religion that Islam says takes people to hell

[oombuddah]

...then you would apply this general idea to him! You would sa, BAM! Jesus' legs were broken, it was a general practice.

Stop trying to kill Jesus.

Besides, as theologians, the muslim argument is not damaged because muslims could believe that God miraculously kept him alive and make it look as though he had died.

But the funny thing is, it doesn't even see as though God needed to intervene at all lol because naturalistically, it seems as though Jesus stayed alive.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah "..then you would apply this general idea to him! You would sa, BAM! Jesus' legs were broken, it was a general practice."

Not when historical manuscript containing eyewitness testimony say His legs weren't broken.

"it doesn't even see as though God needed to intervene at all lol because naturalistically, it seems as though Jesus stayed alive"

That is just silly. Taking ALL the details of the events into account, it is beyond plausibility that Jesus lived by naturalistic explanation

[oombuddah]

As for the spear thrust, many scholars reject this, this rejection even dates back to the early church fathers themselves.

I would have to say to you, WHY are you applying general cases to the case of Jesus in particular? You're literally trying to kill Jesus.

If everything was so severe, why is it not in the earliest strada of the gospels (Mark).

In the end of the day, Jesus' case was very specific. His legs were not broken according to gospels - by your logic, if it wasn't written down,

[oombuddah]

@ChristianScholarship

Tacitus? lol He came so long after - his reports are just based on hearsay evidence. Don't try and use Tacitus against the critic lol

[KingDudi16]

@ChristianScholarship

I'm sorry, I didn't get what you mean. I was just stating a possibility.

Please elaborate.

[KingDudi16]

Hey, I'm not being racist, or mean any offence to any religion, but it possible that they either simply missed his heart.

Also other possibilities are that the roman who speared him was a traitor, or speared him non-lethaly. Also who knows? He might have had a twin or a look-alike with the same passion.

The point is not to show how super-human one can be, but what people will go through to show their love and support.

[oombuddah]

MawridQarib is correct, the spear thrust is unhistorical and unlikely to have happened, I'm amazed that Habermas didn't mention this!

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah Read the Journal of the American Medical Association article that Habermas made reference to. It concludes that Jesus was dead BEFORE the spear thrust.

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch Yes, but the Journal assumes all of the details in Luke and Matthew and even John are accurate and of reality. This doesn't seem to be true to the case of Jesus.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah The JAMA article bases it's conclusions on what we know about the methods of Roman flogging and Roman crucifixion from the HISTORICAL RECORD. All that is needed from the Gospels to prove the case is: 1) the flogging, 1) the crucifixion

Which of the details that would impact whether death occured are you alleging did not happen?

Upon what basis do you reject the 1st century manuscripts that every historical Jesus scholar says is our primary source on the events of the crucifixion?

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch Well, I'd first like to start off by saying a straight fact: we don't know the real extent of Jesus' beatings in particular, the beating was administered by Pilate, and we know that through apologetic motif, Christians would want to mention the details of Luke, John etc.

As for the crucifixion, that's funny because two christian scholars have found out that it takes 3-7 days for someone to die on the cross, even despite any so called flogging lol

Jesus was there for 3 hours.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah "As for the crucifixion, that's funny because two christian scholars have found out that it takes 3-7 days for someone to die on the cross"

Now you are ignoring the fact that Roman centurions who oversaw crucifixions were professional killers. It was their job to make sure the victim was dead, and if they failed in this task, they were subject to death themselves.

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch lol, they didn't break Jesus' legs, it is greatly argued by christian scholars themselves that the spear thrust did not happen. When Roman executioners pronounced him dead, they did so whilst he was on the cross...

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch You really need to improve in your questioning, these are really bad questions. You've been trained to be a robot, blurting out silly questions.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah - "these are really bad questions. You've been trained to be a robot, blurting out silly questions"

No one "trained" me to ask these questions. They are solid questions that point out your ahistorical approach and you bias. It looks to me that you don't want to answer my questions. I don't blame you.

[MawridQarib]

The problem is if the spearing is necessary to prove a cause of death, it shows the weakness of the idea because it is not certain this actually happened. Raymond Brown is sceptical of it, as it was mentioned only in John's Gospel. This means there was room for a living Jesus in the tomb who got out within a couple of days. Of course this is unlikely, but far more reasonable than an unobserved resurrection.

[TheBereanSearch]

@MawridQarib "Of course this is unlikely, but far more reasonable than an unobserved resurrection."

So, instead of an "unobserved resurrection" you are arguing for an unobserved recovery? Swoon theory was abandoned by scholars long ago for a reason. The only people I know of who are advancing it today are Ahmadiyya and Shabir Ally fans :)

[MawridQarib]

@TheBereanSearch The reason an "unobserved resurrection" is a problem is because it has never been observed before in normal human experience. However, recovery from intense injury has been observed before. Therefore, a recovery is far more likely based on known experience and the evidence from the data. Raymod Brown also argues the spear thrust was more likely a scratch to rouse the spleeping. The fact that copiuous blood flowed from the side proves he was alive, as corpses do not bleed.

[TheBereanSearch]

@MawridQarib - "The reason an "unobserved resurrection" is a problem is because it has never been observed before in normal human experience"

The problem with this argument is that you are appealing to a natural-materialist worldview, which presupposes that miracles don't happen and resurrection doesn't exist when you make this claim. No Muslim can use this argument and stay consistent since the Quran says the concept of resurrection of the dead exists, and the Jesus raised the dead.

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch

Not at all, you're attacking at it from the wrong angle, this is talking about the first event which is whether or not he DIED which involves no theological explanation.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah - "this is talking about the first event which is whether or not he DIED which involves no theological explanation."

You are ignoring the details of what happened, such as the body being placed in a guarded tomb with a heavy stone sealing the entrance, the fact that the eyewitnesses saw Jesus walking around with the marks of crucifixion, and then he made a 7 mile walk to Emmaeus with the Disciples. Taken in it's entirety it DOES exceed natural explanation.

[oombuddah]

@TheBereanSearch

Go on my profile.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah I found your profile to be filled with the same flawed logic as your comments here. For example:

"One of Josephus' mates even survived the cross after being on it for DAYS and DAYS"

Of course, you ignore mentioning the fact that this person was given the absolute BEST medical care available, not put in a cold tomb and sealed away.

[TheBereanSearch]

oombuddah- I also find it interesting that you have an entire profile dedicated to the sole purpose of denying the death of Jesus, and additionally interesting is that you advance the ahistorical Swoon Theory, which not one single Historical Jesus scholar takes seriously, but then when pressed on the issue, you make comments abandoning that position, based squarely on naturalist-materalist worldview, and buttress with the suggestion that MAYBE Allah intervened and did a miracle. Very odd indeed.

[TheBereanSearch]

oombuddah- Yet another flaw with the logic in your profile:

"Jesus was only put on the cross for 3-6 hours. It takes 3-7 days for people to die on the cross back in the days 2000 years ago"

It simply does not follow that just because you claim it usually took 3-7 that it will ALWAYS take 3-7 days, and it especially does not follow when you have historical eyewitness testimony from multiple sources that prove the contrary. You are continuing to discard the historical evidence without basis.

[TheKith88]

@TheBereanSearch they also never nailed them on them on the cross ,they tied them.

[TheBereanSearch]

oombudah- Further dealing with the flawed claims in your profile which you asked me to read:

"The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark."

Again, it does not follow that just because the description of the flogging in Matthew and Luke is more detailed and extensive, that it is fabricated. You are assuming the worst of the authors without cause, that they made up things that didn't happen...(cont).....

[TheBereanSearch]

oombudah- Part2 on your statement about Matt. and Luke - You are assuming the worst of the authors without cause, that they made up things that didn't happen, which isn't consistent with the embarrassing admissions the authors make about themselves at several places. Embarrassing admission is one of the criteria historians use to evaluate authors, and if the Disciples were going to alter the facts of the events we would expect to see them alter embarrassing facts about themselves first.

[TheBereanSearch]

oombudah- Continuing to examine the arguments in your profile:

"The centurion went to check and looked at him - he didn't know for sure obviously, but he said that he died. Remember what happened to Paul? SO MANY people were stoning him, they assumed he was dead, so they ALL left him thinking he had died, Paul then got up and walked away."

See my previous comment. Centurions' very lives depending on KNOWING when people are dead. Those who stoned Paul didn't have this training or expertise.

[TheBereanSearch]

@oombuddah- Another flaw with the statement in your profile:

"Reasons why no one can whole heartedly, for sure, be 100% certain that Jesus died in the first place"

We can be as certain about the death of Jesus on the cross as we can be about ANY other historical event, and ALL Historical Jesus scholars affirm this point. Secondly, the death of Jesus on the cross is excedingly more likely than either the Swoon Theory, or the other Muslim explanation that someone died in Jesus' place.

[TheBereanSearch]

@MawridQarib - "Raymod Brown also argues the spear thrust was more likely a scratch to rouse the spleeping."

Raymond Brown is wrong. A spear thrust was one of the forms of what is historically known as a "death blow" in the Roman crucifixion method (leg breaking and ravaging of the body by wild animals are the other 2 common death blows).

[rema0612]

See the web Scripture Unlocked Ministries on the new book "The Jesus Family Tomb Examined: Did He Rise Physically?" by René A. López where he convincingly shows that Jesus died and rose.