Really good question! First a gray card is adjustable so it won't necessarily represent the middle value in every situation. E gads adjustable! Sure go outside tilt it up and down the value will change. I am not shooting an average scene, I am shooting a scene made up of whites. So if I know a white with detail is zone 7 or 2 stops over middle gray why not just place my exposure there? Let all the other values fall below that. Hope I didn't make it worse, more explanation at myphotolesson,com
@tomonator60 I understand your method for the situation and it seems to me like a smart way of doing it. I have an example question: say I the grey card outside and put it wholly in light getting a reading of say f 8.0, then photograph it there at f 8.0...
Then I take the grey card into some shade, get a reading of say f 2.0 and then photograph it there at f 2.0.
Will the grey card in each photograph be middle grey?
Can you explain to me why an 18% grey card wouldn't be useful for spot metering in this situation? One more question from a beginner: the 18% grey card, when exposed at the stop indicated by the meter, will it represent the middle zone in any situation?
Why do you "know that white value is 2 stops over the middle values"? it seems like you skipped the actual step of metering the scene here, or maybe i don't understand something else.
No you didn't miss anything a reflected reading of anything is going to make it middle gray or zone 5 add to stops that will make it white or zone 7. I just wanted the light areas to be just that, white with detail or zone 7. The blacks had no fill so they were not going to have detail anyway so there was no reason to consider them. That is why in this case a incident reading wouldn't work as well in this situation, it would have averaged areas that were not going to register.
'That's all we have to do' LOL. This guy makes it sound so easy. Looking at this video, I can see I still have a lot more to learn about photography before I even think about tackling medium format. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience.
The quick decision to not use an incident meter is a little confusing.
1) He does not understand thoroughly how an incident meter works; OR
2) He DOES understand this very well but wishes to over or underexpose the shot for his purposes.
2) Is the likely answer. He wanted the white to be white but not too white that detail is lost so wanted some under exposure. This method is more reliable at keeping the white in check, but if flash is used, many meters could not offer this method.
The latter, by placing the white in zone 7, no chance of losing detail. Using an incident reading in this instance (contrasty light, no fill) one could only guess where the white would end up. BTW...You can do a reflected reading with that meter with flash, do it all the time. Very intuitive comment!
Thanks for these videos! I'm looking for more information and to see what I can learn or take in before buying a large format camera. I realize it's a little late concerning when you uploaded the video but I wanted to see if I could sum up some ideas here and thoughts.
You're not using incident because you want to (technically) under expose to keep more detail in the highlights, correct?
Also, I'll need to look into the reverse square law concerning the bellows and when to modify the exposure
I am putting together a web site myphotolessoncom your questions, inverse square law, bellows factor, and exposure, are all answered there. They are the in the first 2 lessons Largeformat, Basic studio lighting. Under expose, maybe more accurately I want to place the white where I know it will reproduce white not blown. There is no guess work, no chances. You put the exposure where you want it. If I was shooting a Bride in her dress do I really care how much details in the church or the dress?
Thanks for some tips! I'm more into digital after having a nasty reaction to film developing, but still it does help knowing how other mediums for photography work!
I appreciate you video, but the instructions about incident vs. reflective metering are wrong. Assuming that the light is a stable source, the incident (that's why it's called that)meter will give a very accurate reading for this subject. Although, there are times when to use the dome down,too. Using a reflected reading, even with a gray card, I'd want to half-stop bracket this. I have the 508 zoomaster and it has never failed me this way. It is a great meter in either mode. Thanks.
This has been addressed before, but I'll do it again. Here's a question for you, would the incident reading of a pearl necklace on white be the same as a black tire on black asphalt? Answer yes. Do you think the exposure should be? Answer no. The reason I picked both those subjects is because my clients have included both a national tire company and an international jewelry company.
Placing an exposure takes into consideration the subject, an incident reading doesn't.
I that situation I would probably just do an incident reading. For those reading this that don't know that is the setting with the dome up. The meter will read light and shadow on the dome and average them to give an overall proper exposure. Flash, daylight, or tungsten, makes no difference.
I think I have the same light meter that you are using. I have a Sekonic L-508 Cine Zoom Master. I just got it and was wondering if you can share settings for portrait photo and indoor flash studio lights. Thanks
Ev is easy that meter would do EV (exposure value) The scale for EV is -1EV 4 sec @1.4 to 20EV 1/2000 @ f22. to covert that to LUX I couldn't say. Sorry LUX is more video than still. What I can tell you is and Office is about 320 Lux and 7-8 EV, Sunny day is about 15 EV and 32,000 Lux. Each EV is about 1300-1400 LUX? I could be wrong.
Good comment, there have been a number of people confused by this so I will address it again. I will ask you a question? Would an incident reading of a black tire on a black background be the same as a white egg on a white background? It would. Do you think the exposure should be the same or should there be some consideration for the subject and the detail one is trying to get to reproduce. By "placing the white" I know I will have detail in the highlights... no doubt.
The was told us that - a *reflected* metering only works is there is an average mix of light and dark in the scene, not incident as you stated -I think you just got the wording mixed up, I honestly don't mean to be rude or anything.
what you should state is "a REFLECTED not incident reading etc.
I'm gonna read a book to double check the reflected/incident bit
Yes 100% to your question so long as you record the light falling onto it. A black cat in a snowdrift even...? - Yes
First, it is never "Rude" to ask a legitimate, insightful, question. If you have the question then others do too!
You are talking about a reflective reading of an entire scene. I talking about placing an exposure of a specific spot. I shoot all the tires for a national tire company. They really care more about tread detail then they do about how much light (incident) is falling on the entire scene. I need to place that detail no darker than zone 4 or 5 or at about 90-120 on the digital scale
In calculating bellows factor the Fstop scale method treats the lens as a light source which illuminates the ground glass. Like any light would light any subject. As one expands the bellows and moves substantially farther away from the distance at which the lens was intended to work (the focal length) then the light loses intensity or exposure. The Fstop scale (which is in fact a table for the inverse square law) allows one to calculate how many stops are lost without doing any math.
Huh!? Why didn't you use an incident light meter reading? You rejected it without explaining why.
(Incident would have been simpler, more accurate and less complicatedin this case..... the whole point about incident being it is NOT mislead by an all white subject/background.)
The f/stop scale method of exposure compensation for close-up is new to me, and was not explained. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more detail on that please. Post a link?
Really good questions. I did explain it in the video but admittedly it was fast.
Here goes... an incident reading only works if the subject has an an average amount of lights and darks. The reading is always the same regardless of the subject. It will underexpose an all black subjects and overexpose an all white subjects. By "placing the white" I know I will have detail in the highlights no doubt. Same reason I don't set my camera on program.(Unless I am at a Party)
You're asking is about the inverse square law? The rate at light falls off depending on distance. That's why zoom lenses are 3.5/4 because when the are zoomed out they are effectively slower because they are longer.
Fstops are distances, they could be inches, feet, meters or millions of miles, that is why they use those numbers. Move a light from 2ft to 2.8 you've lost a stop. Earth is 93 million miles away from the sun Mars is 141 then Mars is 1.5 stops darker, easier than an incident reading.
This video was designed to aid my professional photography students. I guess a point n shoot they learn about at Walmart. Thank you so much for the kind words.
Please don't, that wasn't my intent. This video was designed to help students in a course that has 44 contact hours. This clip is just 5 minutes.
Just keep shooting and remember your eye always goes to the highest point of contrast. That is why stop signs are white and red, not sea foam green and beige. Whether you are photographing a still life or a portrait just put light against dark and dark against light. You will create separation and direct the viewers eye. Good Luck!
yes absolutely provided the scene you are trying to capture has a full range of values from white to black.
tomonator60 2 months ago
Really good question! First a gray card is adjustable so it won't necessarily represent the middle value in every situation. E gads adjustable! Sure go outside tilt it up and down the value will change. I am not shooting an average scene, I am shooting a scene made up of whites. So if I know a white with detail is zone 7 or 2 stops over middle gray why not just place my exposure there? Let all the other values fall below that. Hope I didn't make it worse, more explanation at myphotolesson,com
tomonator60 2 months ago
@tomonator60 I understand your method for the situation and it seems to me like a smart way of doing it. I have an example question: say I the grey card outside and put it wholly in light getting a reading of say f 8.0, then photograph it there at f 8.0...
Then I take the grey card into some shade, get a reading of say f 2.0 and then photograph it there at f 2.0.
Will the grey card in each photograph be middle grey?
davidowenjames 2 months ago
Can you explain to me why an 18% grey card wouldn't be useful for spot metering in this situation? One more question from a beginner: the 18% grey card, when exposed at the stop indicated by the meter, will it represent the middle zone in any situation?
Thank you.
davidowenjames 2 months ago
Why do you "know that white value is 2 stops over the middle values"? it seems like you skipped the actual step of metering the scene here, or maybe i don't understand something else.
jcarrig 6 months ago
No you didn't miss anything a reflected reading of anything is going to make it middle gray or zone 5 add to stops that will make it white or zone 7. I just wanted the light areas to be just that, white with detail or zone 7. The blacks had no fill so they were not going to have detail anyway so there was no reason to consider them. That is why in this case a incident reading wouldn't work as well in this situation, it would have averaged areas that were not going to register.
tomonator60 6 months ago
'That's all we have to do' LOL. This guy makes it sound so easy. Looking at this video, I can see I still have a lot more to learn about photography before I even think about tackling medium format. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience.
marvenp 8 months ago
Thanks for the video! I am learning many stuff. I am gonna buy an SLR and learn more. really interesting part of the world here (:
DarrenDiAntonio 10 months ago
can you imagine taking non-still images with all these steps?
DarrenDiAntonio 10 months ago
The quick decision to not use an incident meter is a little confusing.
1) He does not understand thoroughly how an incident meter works; OR
2) He DOES understand this very well but wishes to over or underexpose the shot for his purposes.
2) Is the likely answer. He wanted the white to be white but not too white that detail is lost so wanted some under exposure. This method is more reliable at keeping the white in check, but if flash is used, many meters could not offer this method.
tomymtnman 11 months ago
The latter, by placing the white in zone 7, no chance of losing detail. Using an incident reading in this instance (contrasty light, no fill) one could only guess where the white would end up. BTW...You can do a reflected reading with that meter with flash, do it all the time. Very intuitive comment!
tomonator60 11 months ago
Thanks for these videos! I'm looking for more information and to see what I can learn or take in before buying a large format camera. I realize it's a little late concerning when you uploaded the video but I wanted to see if I could sum up some ideas here and thoughts.
You're not using incident because you want to (technically) under expose to keep more detail in the highlights, correct?
Also, I'll need to look into the reverse square law concerning the bellows and when to modify the exposure
photog645 1 year ago
I am putting together a web site myphotolessoncom your questions, inverse square law, bellows factor, and exposure, are all answered there. They are the in the first 2 lessons Largeformat, Basic studio lighting. Under expose, maybe more accurately I want to place the white where I know it will reproduce white not blown. There is no guess work, no chances. You put the exposure where you want it. If I was shooting a Bride in her dress do I really care how much details in the church or the dress?
tomonator60 1 year ago
Thanks for some tips! I'm more into digital after having a nasty reaction to film developing, but still it does help knowing how other mediums for photography work!
sgtjlopez 1 year ago
GREAT VIDEO.....i watched a similar video by expert village and they didnt know what the heck they were talking about.
sethmusic 1 year ago
I appreciate you video, but the instructions about incident vs. reflective metering are wrong. Assuming that the light is a stable source, the incident (that's why it's called that)meter will give a very accurate reading for this subject. Although, there are times when to use the dome down,too. Using a reflected reading, even with a gray card, I'd want to half-stop bracket this. I have the 508 zoomaster and it has never failed me this way. It is a great meter in either mode. Thanks.
chompychomps 2 years ago
This has been addressed before, but I'll do it again. Here's a question for you, would the incident reading of a pearl necklace on white be the same as a black tire on black asphalt? Answer yes. Do you think the exposure should be? Answer no. The reason I picked both those subjects is because my clients have included both a national tire company and an international jewelry company.
Placing an exposure takes into consideration the subject, an incident reading doesn't.
Thanks for the comment.
tomonator60 2 years ago
As a fellow experienced photographer and and a friend...your're doing it the hard way. But, trite as it might sound, to each his own. Happy shooting.
chompychomps 2 years ago
Thank you for posting.
RabidF0XX 2 years ago
Thank you for the awesome video. Would you mind telling me what lights you are using? They have a really nice spread.
ttunney 2 years ago
They are Mickey Moles by Mole Richardson very durable but not cheap.
tomonator60 2 years ago 2
Thank you for sharing .
huesos79 2 years ago
I that situation I would probably just do an incident reading. For those reading this that don't know that is the setting with the dome up. The meter will read light and shadow on the dome and average them to give an overall proper exposure. Flash, daylight, or tungsten, makes no difference.
tomonator60 2 years ago
Great vid!
I think I have the same light meter that you are using. I have a Sekonic L-508 Cine Zoom Master. I just got it and was wondering if you can share settings for portrait photo and indoor flash studio lights. Thanks
jav818 2 years ago
Awesome video!! I think this videos would teach students a week in a half of information than a regular photo class. Maybe
mohicanspap 2 years ago
Great video, Thanks!
pipall 2 years ago
Nice lesson. I'd like to get a 4X5 view camera for shooting landscapes. And keep the DSLR gear for sports and wildlife.
wildbill9919 3 years ago
Ev is easy that meter would do EV (exposure value) The scale for EV is -1EV 4 sec @1.4 to 20EV 1/2000 @ f22. to covert that to LUX I couldn't say. Sorry LUX is more video than still. What I can tell you is and Office is about 320 Lux and 7-8 EV, Sunny day is about 15 EV and 32,000 Lux. Each EV is about 1300-1400 LUX? I could be wrong.
tomonator60 3 years ago
How do I measure and read the EV? And how do I calculate the EV to Lux?
:( I'm a noob.
drvids 3 years ago
great video. thanks for the tips
kingskid96 3 years ago
You said" Here goes... an *incident* reading only works if the subject has an an average amount of lights and darks.
This is true of a *reflected* meter reading not incident.
An incident reading isn't mislead by an all the colours textures reflectiveness etc and gives a more acurate result.
Thanks phil
phildemon2 3 years ago
Good comment, there have been a number of people confused by this so I will address it again. I will ask you a question? Would an incident reading of a black tire on a black background be the same as a white egg on a white background? It would. Do you think the exposure should be the same or should there be some consideration for the subject and the detail one is trying to get to reproduce. By "placing the white" I know I will have detail in the highlights... no doubt.
tomonator60 3 years ago
The was told us that - a *reflected* metering only works is there is an average mix of light and dark in the scene, not incident as you stated -I think you just got the wording mixed up, I honestly don't mean to be rude or anything.
what you should state is "a REFLECTED not incident reading etc.
I'm gonna read a book to double check the reflected/incident bit
Yes 100% to your question so long as you record the light falling onto it. A black cat in a snowdrift even...? - Yes
...I think
phildemon2 3 years ago
First, it is never "Rude" to ask a legitimate, insightful, question. If you have the question then others do too!
You are talking about a reflective reading of an entire scene. I talking about placing an exposure of a specific spot. I shoot all the tires for a national tire company. They really care more about tread detail then they do about how much light (incident) is falling on the entire scene. I need to place that detail no darker than zone 4 or 5 or at about 90-120 on the digital scale
tomonator60 3 years ago
great and well done. Thank you.
badmemory 3 years ago 2
In calculating bellows factor the Fstop scale method treats the lens as a light source which illuminates the ground glass. Like any light would light any subject. As one expands the bellows and moves substantially farther away from the distance at which the lens was intended to work (the focal length) then the light loses intensity or exposure. The Fstop scale (which is in fact a table for the inverse square law) allows one to calculate how many stops are lost without doing any math.
tomonator60 3 years ago
Huh!? Why didn't you use an incident light meter reading? You rejected it without explaining why.
(Incident would have been simpler, more accurate and less complicatedin this case..... the whole point about incident being it is NOT mislead by an all white subject/background.)
The f/stop scale method of exposure compensation for close-up is new to me, and was not explained. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more detail on that please. Post a link?
effyleven 3 years ago
Really good questions. I did explain it in the video but admittedly it was fast.
Here goes... an incident reading only works if the subject has an an average amount of lights and darks. The reading is always the same regardless of the subject. It will underexpose an all black subjects and overexpose an all white subjects. By "placing the white" I know I will have detail in the highlights no doubt. Same reason I don't set my camera on program.(Unless I am at a Party)
tomonator60 3 years ago
You're asking is about the inverse square law? The rate at light falls off depending on distance. That's why zoom lenses are 3.5/4 because when the are zoomed out they are effectively slower because they are longer.
Fstops are distances, they could be inches, feet, meters or millions of miles, that is why they use those numbers. Move a light from 2ft to 2.8 you've lost a stop. Earth is 93 million miles away from the sun Mars is 141 then Mars is 1.5 stops darker, easier than an incident reading.
tomonator60 3 years ago
at last, photography not point n shoot,thanks
TS Audio Visual.
audiofreeq 3 years ago 2
This video was designed to aid my professional photography students. I guess a point n shoot they learn about at Walmart. Thank you so much for the kind words.
tomonator60 3 years ago
Wow I feel dumb.
OzzyCoop 3 years ago
Please don't, that wasn't my intent. This video was designed to help students in a course that has 44 contact hours. This clip is just 5 minutes.
Just keep shooting and remember your eye always goes to the highest point of contrast. That is why stop signs are white and red, not sea foam green and beige. Whether you are photographing a still life or a portrait just put light against dark and dark against light. You will create separation and direct the viewers eye. Good Luck!
tomonator60 3 years ago
Very informative. Thank you!
davegto67 3 years ago
Very well done!
ZoneIII 4 years ago