@baphxiii The evidence that Jesus existed is overwhelming. There are multiple contemporaneous and near contemporaneous accounts of His life and deeds. Arguing there is no evidence for Jesus is akin to arguing there is no evidence for Socrates or Hannibal or for the Battle of Cannae.
"No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we now know a considerable amount about his actions and his basic teachings" James H. Charlesworth
@nnjhansen I never said a man named jesus never lived. What I was saying was that what is claimed in the bible is not accurate. There is little to no evidence found outside the bible about a man named jesus.
75% of the people in this country are Christians. Just about 50% of the entire U.S. population are creationists. This alone makes the United States the largest loony bin on the planet -- the 8th wonder of the world you can see from space.
There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed. Not even a first hand eyewitness testimony, but even if there was, it would be completely useless now wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people living today who can give you first hand eyewitness testimony of ufo abduction, pink unicorns, tooth-fairies and the flying spaghetti monster.
Besides, it is NOT Jesus's existence that Christians have to prove. It is that he was Christ. Without that, Christianity wouldn't even exist.
75% of the people in this country are Christians. Just about 50% of the entire U.S. population are creationists. This alone makes the United States the largest loony bin on the planet -- the 8th wonder of the world you can see from space.
There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed. Not even a first hand eyewitness testimony, but even if there was, it would be completely useless now wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people living today who can give you first hand eyewitness testimony of ufo abduction, pink unicorns, tooth-fairies and the flying spaghetti monster.
Besides, it is NOT Jesus's existence that Christians have to prove. It is that he was Christ. Without that, Christianity wouldn't even exist.
@saburius I would say it is the opposite and I say this as an agnostic. It is up to those who insist Jesus never existed to prove it didn't which they can't. Indeed all the evidence indicates he DID exist and 99.9% Phd level experts on the origin of the New Testament and Christianity accept a historical Jesus for several reasons. It is silly and bullshit to say there is not one shred of evidence. That is bullshit. The rub is with the post death Jesus in the books I have from skeptics.
@boblackey1 'It is up to those who insist Jesus never existed to prove it didn't which they can't. '
NO, it's the other way around you stupid fucking bastard. You're the one making the absurd claim, YOU prove it!! There's no need for us to prove a NEGATIVE you hysterical shithead.
@DocReasonable I'm making the absurd claim!!?? The position that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was head of a Jewish movement with followers who thought him to be the Messiah is the MAINSTREAM position and has been for 2,000 years. Today 99.9 percent of the experts in the field who are agnostic/skeptic hold that Jesus did exist and about 12% of his actual words are in the gospels with the rest made up and put in is mouth by the unknown gospel writers. What experts hold with you?
@5rooker BTW- you evidently don't know much about the Pauline epistles. They're not only not contemporary, but are widely thought to be forgeries whose purposed intent was to justify later beliefs.
@5rooker The jesus myth is just a regurgitation of the same myth from earlier times. Even the egyptian god Horus, dating from 2500 BC, isn't the original, but Horus was said to be born of a virgin, died, resurrected, and yadda, yadda, yadda. Like the jesus myth, there's no evidence he existed, either.
O AND BY THE WAY WE DO KNOW WHEN JESUS WAS BORN MY BE YOU SHOULD DO YOUR RESEARCH PROPLY leonardo da vinci PAINTED JESUS THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY DISCRIBE JESUS AND IT WASNT THAT LONG AFTER JESUS DIED THAT HE PAINTED JESUS!!!!!!
@gsmonks "it is well-known that there was no historical Jesus. It's a myth" What are you? A fool? Well known by whom? That has me laughing and rolling on the floor!!! There are virtually NO experts in the field of New Testament origins or historians who deal with first century Israel who hold that Jesus never existed. What horseshit!! It's clear you've been reading a book that was written by some amature hack who hasn't a clue as to what they are talking about!! Sorry to burst your bubble.
@gsmonks I'm not smoking a damn thing. You're a liar! It is horseshit that no REPUTABLE archaeologist or historian believes or can show evidence that Jesus ever existed. What book(s) have you been reading? You have been suckered by some amature hack. The opposite is true!! I have dozens of books by experts who not only show that Jesus existed, but have isolated his actual words from the bogus Jesus quotes in the gospels. Are you an expert in this field? Not a good one if you think you are! Man!
The works of Philo Judaeus born 20 BC and died 50 AD; the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time, he lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus 'the Christ.' Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder.
@DocReasonable Philo was the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time? Lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus? Where did you get that? Philo wrote next to nothing about Judaism and did he not spend most of his life in Egypt? The Jews paid little attention to his writings and they were preserved by the church fathers. If a historian was writing about America in 1980, do you expect him to mention Oral Roberts? This proves nothing.
It proves nothing to YOU, because you are a denialist crybaby who shuns and fears all of the facts that point to Jesus never existing. It makes you want to cry that you've wasted your life worshipping a fantasy, so instead of being a man and facing up to it, you bury your head under the blankets and say 'NO!! NO!! NO!!!'
If Jesus DID exist, he would have been the most remarkable man of his age, and would have been noted by EVERY historian, scribe and academic in the area.
@DocReasonable But Jesus did exist and your position in NOT held by any professional scholars and historians in the field except one, Robert Price, Phd, and he "doubts" Jesus existed, fails to rule it out completely. There is more evidence that Jesus DID exist than didn't. Who are the experts in the field on New Testament origins, Christian origins etc who find NO evidence that Jesus did not live? Give me the names. And what facts point to Jesus not existing? Indeed facts say he did exist!!!
NOBODY with any credibility still maintains that Jesus was an historical figure, you hysterical retard.
If you have any proof that he DID live, you'll be the first. And don't just parrot off the usual names of people who lived 100+ years later, that ain't gonna cut it, jackass.
@DocReasonable That is the most laughable thing one could say!! You are a NUT!! "Nobody with any credibility still maintains that Jesus was a historical figure"? On which planet to you live? My library is full of books by skeptical/critical Phd level scholars and historians who not only hold that Jesus lived but isolate words he actually said among the many words in the gospels these skeptics say were made up & Jesus never said. Again can you name ONE Phd level expert in this field who says no?
@DocReasonable You stupid fool! I can name dozens. Bart Ehrman, Phd, James Tabor, Phd, Burton L. Mack, Phd, Marques Borg, Phd, Robert Miller, Phd, John Dominic Crosson, Phd, James Edwards, Phd etc etc. What hacks have you been reading? Your not reasonable and not a doc. You're a quack:-)
@DocReasonable Google Bart Ehrman or James Tabor just for starters and you will see not only do they have a Phd but where they earned their Phd. You are living in a dream world and it seems you are being fed by a bunch of amatures and quacks such as Kenneth Humphreys. And they all have evidence for Jesus you idiot!
In his book 'Forged', Bart Ehrman deals with the evidence that many canonical works were forgeries, and the inability of Christian apologists to deal with this embarrassing fact. Ehrman tears these rationalizations to pieces, pointing out they are unsupported by even a shred of evidence. A typical intrusion is the tale in the Gospel of John of the woman taken in adultery. The story is missing from earliest manuscripts.
@DocReasonable Doc you are one of the biggest fools and UNINFORMED persons I've ever met on the internet. Bart Ehrman STRONGLY SUPPORTS the existence of a historical Jesus. Just type in "Ehrman/Infidel Guy" and listen to that interview here on YouTube and how Ehrman presses the point that Jesus DID exist as a human being! The tale of the woman in John's gospel is noted in all study bibles as missing in the oldest manuscripts. Any Christian who can study knows that!
Josephus DID NOT LIVE AT THE TIME OF JESUS, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? He wrote 70 YEARS LATER!
AND the earliest copies of his writings are from the 5th century AD!! Honest scholars universally dismiss this as a forgery by Eusebius. Why would an ORTHODOX JEW have been PRAISING JESUS ANYWAY?
Provide me with the name of ANYONE who wrote about Christ during his SUPPOSED LIFETIME. As it stands, we have ZERO Roman, Jewish or Pagan records of him from his SUPPOSED LIFETIME.
@DocReasonable You ARE an idiot. The absolute majority of scholars accept Josephus' report on Jesus being executed by Pilate as from Josephus with the exception of a couple of interpolations added later including two of the best Josephus scholars. Louis Feldman, Phd and Alice Whealey, Phd. Go to wwwdotjosephusdotorg and get some education.
@DocReasonable You call me a laughable RETARD and anyone who has studied this fuss can see that you don't even know what your talking about. You need to get an education in this field and KNOW what persons such as Ehrman teaches and what Josephus scholars such as Feldman and Whealey hold about Josephus. Josephus DOES mention Jesus being executed by Pilate. That part is NOT among the few lines scholars think were interpolated. Learn before you speak. PLEASE. wwwdotjosephusdotorg
@DocReasonable Provide the quote? You idiot. You don't even know that the TF passage in Josephus clearly says Jesus was crucified by Pilate!! "when Pilate, due to accusations from some of our principal men, condemned him to the cross" (quoting Josephus found in ALL manuscripts) and leading Josephus expert Louis Feldman, Phd writes: "The most likely view is our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote". See wwwdotjosephusdotorg and noticed the part about Pilate is not fake
@DocReasonable I have ALL of Bart Ehrman's books including "Forged" and have written him several times via Email at the office at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and if you think Bart Ehrman today holds that Jesus of Nazareth never existed as a human being, you are WRONG!! Ehrman rejects the divinity of Jesus, his virgin birth etc but absolutely holds he existed as a human being & his original followers didn't expect him to be crucified. That was a surprise to all.
@DocReasonable It is a damn shame to get on this site and have to put up with your silly rantings and lies. Either you are a damn liar or you are ignorant of the facts. Either you are a liar or you have NO idea what Bart Ehrman holds or what the leading experts on Josephus such as Louis Feldman, Phd or Alice Whealey, Phd hold and Whealey and Dr. Goldberg at josephusdotorg prove that Josephus wrote about Jesus and his execution by Pilate. Those are the facts. Sorry you failed.
@DocReasonable You are an idiot and a liar who plays loose with the facts. Anyone who has read the TF passage in Josephus KNOWS Jesus Christ is the subject of that quote. You said that Pilate was NOT mentioned in the passage so I provided just that portion of it. You are a fool!! Also Dr. Whealey and Dr. Goldberg have PROVED that the TF was written by Josephus with some minor interpolations added later by a Christian scribe BUT THE SENTENCE WITH PILATE'S NAME IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!
@DocReasonable Can you find me a Phd level expert on Josephus or Christian origins other than Robert Price (even Price admits Jesus could have existed but he doubts it) who holds that Jesus didn't exist as a human being and led a movement probably started by John the Baptist which promoted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah which also included his brother James which began in Jerusalem? You are a dipshit liar. You have NO evidence or expert who would say Jesus is invented fantasy.
@DocReasonable I suggest you quit with your insane posts to my posts as even one with just a passing understanding of the facts concerning Josephus, Jesus and Pilate can easily see that your posts are making you look like a damn fool with NO HINT of what the facts are and the conclusions of the experts on Josephus and his works. You go cuddle up to Santa Claus as you seem to have the knowledge of a child on this subject.
@DocReasonable "Josephus-a paragraph inserted in the 4th century by Eusebius" That is NOT accurate and at odds with the work of modern Josephus experts such as Alice Whealey, Phd, Louis Feldman, Phd and Dr. Goldberg in his book and website wwwdotjosephusdotorg I dare YOU to provide the expert, the scholar, the historian, who holds that the TF was inserted by Eusebius in the 4th century. There are NO experts who hold that view. So you can't provide one now can you!!!
You have a couple of christian apologists from the last century who deny the Josephus quotes were interpolations. Big deal, turd.
The earliest copies of his writings are from the 5th century AD. Honest scholars universally dismiss this as a forgery by Eusebius. Why would an ORTHODOX JEW have been PRAISING JESUS ANYWAY?
I'm sure you think the Shroud of Turin is genuine too, you hysterical, desperate lunatic.
@DocReasonable That is a damn LIE!!! Only a couple of Christian apologists?? Louis Feldman, Phd is Jewish not Christian. I have NO idea what Alice Whealey, Phd holds for a religion if any. WHO ARE THE HONEST SCHOLARS WHO UNIVERSALLY DISMISS THIS AS A FORGERY BY EUSEBIUS?? NAME THREE! TWO! NAME JUST ONE!! You don't have ANY Phd level experts on Josephus who say such a thing! Can anybody reading this provide ONE expert on Josephus who holds the TF was inserted in the 4th century?
@DocReasonable It is CLEAR you don't know what your talking about. It is clear you have not read the huge volume by Alice Whealey, Phd or the works of Louis Feldman, Phd or visited just the website of Dr. Goldberg which is: wwwdotjosephusdotorg It is NOT true Josephus praised Jesus. You have NO idea what Josephus actually wrote and how experts know what he wrote and what are the couple interpolations which were added later by some scribe to tweak the passage to be Christian.
@DocReasonable You either don't have eyes or are just unable to surrender your incorrect position due to pride..or ignorance. The passage in question is NOT a complete interpolation. A few words were added by an UNKNOWN scribe after Josephus wrote. It has been proved by several experts (you can read complete details at wwwdotjosephusdotorg) that originally the passage didn't read exactly as it does in most manuscripts that exist today with the oldest dating to the 10th century.
@DocReasonable There are three positions. 1) the passage was written as it reads today by Josephus. 2) the passage is a complete interpolation (forgery). 3) the passage was written by Josephus does report Jesus being thought by his followers to be the Jewish Messiah and was crucified by Pilate but AFTER Josephus wrote the core passage, it was altered slightly by an unknown person. The 3rd position has been shown by several experts to be the correct position thus you are in error.
@DocReasonable If you had actually been to Wiki, you would have read "Currently, the most widely held scholarly opinion is that the Testimonium Flavianum is PARTIALLY AUTHENTIC; but the words that correspond with standard Christian confession are additions to the text made by a later Christian copyist". And "Alice Whealey, Phd points out that Michael the Syrian's text is identical with Jerome's at the most contentious point "he was the Christ" becoming "he was believed to be the..
@DocReasonable "he was believed to be the Christ" which proves the existence of a Greek manuscript that predates Michael and Jerome as Latin & Syriac writers did not read each others works in late antiquity. Dr. Whealey has argued the word "mistabra" meaning "was supposed to be" has a skeptical connotation asndis likely what Origen read when he reported Josephus did NOT believe Jesus to be the Christ. This just is the tip of the iceberg. If you want to go deep, get Whealey's book
One of the main things you ignore is Josephus was NOT A CONTEMPORARY OF JESUS!!
He was born in the year 37 CE, several years after Jesus' alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from is own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and whatever crap they said about their mythical founder. Even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.
@DocReasonable So WHAT? Who wrote about Josephus while he was alive? Or Pilate? Or John the Baptist and most any other person who lived in the first century. And what DID Josephus write about that happened while he was alive in his works? By your standard, Josephus is not reliable for a damn thing.
Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus’ work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.
@DocReasonable "its brevity disproves its authenticity". Who wrote that? YOU? The passage about Jesus and his execution by Pilate occurs in and as part of a much longer passage about Pilate. The Jesus account is part of Josephus' passage about Pilate. You are either not a scholar or have quoted some hack and amature.
Equally damning is the fact that the early Christian fathers were not acquainted with it. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all would have quoted this passage had it existed in their time. The failure of even one of these fathers to notice it would be sufficient to throw doubt upon its genuineness; the failure of all of them to notice it proves conclusively that it is spurious, that it was not in existence until centuries later.
@DocReasonable The works of Alice Whealey, Phd, Louis Feldman, Phd and Dr. Goldberg at wwwdotjosephusdotorg contradict and dismiss this short sighted quote. Dr. Whealey proves that Origen knew that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the Christ due to the wording of the TF passage in it's original form. And Origen does quote the shorter "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage AT A TIME WHEN ROME STILL HAVE CONTROL OF JOSEPHUS' WORK, NOT CHRISTIANS!!
@boblackey1 Dr. Alexander Campbell, one of America’s ablest Christian apologists, says: 'Josephus was contemporary with the Apostles. He had every access to know all that took place at the rise of the Christian religion. The present copies of his work contain one passage which speaks very respectfully of Jesus Christ. But as Josephus did not embrace Christianity, and as this passage is not quoted or referred to until the beginning of the fourth century, it is accounted spurious'
@DocReasonable Dr. Campbell is mistaken. The latest work by experts on Josephus addresses that objection and indeed the majority view by Josephus experts is that the passage originally was worded by Josephus with a skeptical tone about Jesus being the Christ. The is clearly what Origen read when he himself wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Christ.
'This passage is probably genuine with the exception of the clause, 'who was called Christ' which is undoubtedly an interpolation, and is generally regarded as such. Nearly all the authorities that I have quoted reject it.' John E. Remsburg
@DocReasonable Here you have John E. Remsburg supporting the majority view that the passage is genuine with the exception of the clause "who was called Christ" and as Dr. Whealey and Dr. Goldberg have shown, the original Greek read "was believed to be the Christ" or "thought by them to have been the Christ". Also do you know WHO Remsburg is? He is NOT an expert at anything with NO degree. He is but a amature skeptic and critic of Christianity who died in 1919.
'The fact that the early fathers, who were acquainted with Josephus, and who would have hailed with joy even this evidence of Christ’s existence, do not cite it, while Origen expressly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ, is conclusive proof that it did not exist until the middle of the third century or later. ' John E. Remsburg
DO you understand the SIGNIFICANCE of this, butthead? Can you respond without frothing like a rabid dog?
@DocReasonable Here John E. Remsburg is either misquoted or Remsburg is a lying dog who full of horse shit. It is complete bullshit and Remsburg had to have known it, so I'm guessing he is misquoted, the Origen experssly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ. Origen quotes the "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage and actually wrote "Josephus not believing that Jesus was the Christ". That is NOT "never mentioned Christ" Stop with the misinformation and crap!!
@boblackey1 'Origen quotes the "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage and actually wrote "Josephus not believing that Jesus was the Christ". '
WRONG, you fucking liar -- Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, 'did not acknowledge Christ'.
So unless you suffer from dyslexia and cannot understand what you read, FUCK YOU you lying HACK!!!
@DocReasonable You are the fucking liar my friend. You can NOT provide ANY expert or scholar on Josephus or Origen who would write such a lie. Origen NEVER wrote "did not acknowledge Christ". Origen wrote "Josephus, while not believing Jesus was the Christ"!!! There is NO way out for you. Origen NEVER indicates Josephus never mentioned Jesus but that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ (Messiah of the Jews). That is the hole you just fell through. Sorry.
As G.A. Wells points out in The Jesus Myth, not only do several Church fathers from the second, third and early fourth centuries have no apparent knowledge of the TF, but even after Eusebius suddenly 'found' it in the first half of the fourth century, several other fathers into the fifth 'often cite Josephus, but not this passage.' (Wells, JM, 202) In the 5th century, Church father Jerome cited the TF once, with obvious disinterest, as if he knew it was fraudulent.
@DocReasonable Didn't learn a darn thing from Dr. Alice Whealey who has an earned M. A. in demogaphy and an earned Phd in history from U. C. Berkley and published "Josephus on Jesus", a huge volume covering the TF controversy from antiquity to today in 2003, a volume that was suggested to me by Josephus expert Louis Feldman, Phd who is Jewish and professor at New York University via Email seveal years ago. During their time the TF was negative about Jesus being the Messiah.
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
@DocReasonable Justin Martyr (c 100-c 165) who obviously pored over Josephus's works makes no mention of the TF (BTW it's Josephus' works). Where the hell did you get that? There is NO indication that Justin or ANY early church father had a copy of Josephus save Origen. During their time, Rome had not converted to Christinaity and Christians did not control the preservation of Josephus' works. Josephus is NEVER mentioned in Justin's genuine work. NEVER!!
@DocReasonable All of this is a lame attempt to suggest that Justin, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria were busy reading and re-reading Josephus when the truth is that most likely never read Josephus at all and never had a copy of his work. Josephus' work was not preserved by Christian scribes BEFORE Rome converted to Christianity. Indeed it is most likely Justin never saw a copy of Josephus. This is a strawman argument and is worthless and bullshit.
@boblackey1 'Josephus' work was not preserved by Christian scribes BEFORE Rome converted to Christianity. This is a strawman argument and is worthless and bullshit.'
Sure is, you dumb cunt. Nothing you say about Josephus is RELEVANT ANYWAY, AS HE LIVED AFTER 'CHRIST',
Give us the name of ONE fucking scribe who lived WITH JESUS you cowardly lying SHIT.
@DocReasonable Also where is the proof the early fathers were acquainted with Josephus. Where is the proof most of the early fathers heard of or read or had copies to read of Josephus?? Indeed during the time of the earliest church fathers including Origen who did read Josephus, Rome had control of those works not the church. The church preserved Josephus' works later through copies made by scribes which it did most other first century works that survive today.
@DocReasonable And finally if John E. Remsburg is the expert you cite to refute modern experts such as Louis Feldman, Phd, Alice Whealey, Phd, James Tabor, Phd etc etc did you NOT notice Remsburg is not an expert at anything. Has NO degree and never taught first century history or Josephus at any university in the world. He was a skeptic of Christianity who wrote as an amature just as people such as Earl Doherty, Ken Humphreys or Acharya S do today. Hacks is what they are!!!
@DocReasonable Let me explain it so you can even understand. Mr. John E. Remsburg (no degree) equals "amature".Dr. Alice Whealey, Phd equals "expert". Mr. Kenneth Humphreys, (ooops no degree) equals amature. Acharya S. (Ms. D. M. Murdock, oh no she has no degree and like the others can't teach at a university) equals amature. Dr. Louis Feldman, Phd retired professor and Josephus expert at New York University equals expert. Mr. Frank Zindler high school biology teacher, amature.
@DocReasonable That is the spelling of amateur that you used to me when you were fussing with me as KenDyre up to just a month ago. Same arguments and same style. I've noticed many people on YouTube spell it amature rather than amateur. Is it either or now or what?
@boblackey1 'you were fussing with me as KenDyre up to just a month ago.'
You've REALLY lost it now, you stupid fucking prick!! Do you think everyone who disagrees with your crap must be the SAME PERSON you fuckheaded dipshit?!
No, I can SPELL you wanking fucktard - -unlike ANY of you uneducated and utterly hysterical apologist lunatics.
@DocReasonable I am NOT an apologist. I'm not religious and I'm agnostic about religion. I was raised in a Christian denomination but even as a child was somehow agnostic. About 12 years ago, a person gave me a book by Earl Doherty that claimed Jesus didn't even exist as a human being. Noticing that Earl was not a professional in the field but an "amature;-)" I decided to turn to the experts who were not believers but skeptics and found almost NO support for the Jesus myth theory.
Louis Feldman does NOT say Jesus was an historical figure, you nutjob. He also says the Josephus account is bogus. Why are you lying about these people being on YOUR side?
@DocReasonable Another LIE!! Do you have Dr. Feldman's book? I DO!! "The most LIKELY VIEW SEEMS TO BE THAT OUR TEXT REPRESENTS SUBSTANTIALLY WHAT JOSEPHUS WROTE, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator" PAGE 49 of Feldman's book. Another lie is Jews do not believe Jesus existed. Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah!
@DocReasonable Indeed the ONLY Phd level skeptical New Testament scholar who doubts but does not completely reject a historical Jesus that I could find is Robert Price, Phd. There is Richard Carrier, Phd but Carrier is not really a New Testament scholar but is a historian and pushes the myth theory but he admits that it is possible that Jesus did exist as a man. As to Josephus, all the experts I can find hold the TF is part genuine/part interpolation. Feldman is Jewish. Whealey ??
'But one thing is clear, that the earliest of the Gospels certainly, usually said to be Mark, dates from around the year 70, which is long after the time of Jesus, who apparently died in the year 29. And that Jesus never wrote anything. You know, if you had an inquest in the case of Jesus, who killed Jesus, you don't have a body. You don't have anything he wrote. None of the authors of the Gospels ever talked to him. So you have nothing.'
@DocReasonable "who apparently died in the year 20" proves this passage from Feldman isn't talking about whether Jesus actually lived as a human being. Louis Feldman, Phd, a man I wrote several times via Email at New York University, is very sensitive about the Jews being blamed for Jesus' being executed. Feldman holds that is not the case and is a Christian distortion.
@boblackey1 'ensitive about the Jews being blamed for Jesus' being executed. Feldman holds that is not the case and is a Christian distortion. '
Of course it's a distortion. It never EVEN HAPPENED, you dumb fuck.
Regarding the 'life' and apparent (alleged) 'death' of Jesus, Feldman says 'You don't have a body. You don't have anything he wrote. None of the authors of the Gospels ever talked to him. So you have nothing.'
That's Feldman saying THERE WAS NO JESUS you stupid FUCK.
@DocReasonable That is another lie and stretch. I know for a FACT that Dr. Feldman holds that Jesus did exist as a first century Jewish teacher who probably said about 12 percent of the his quotes in the gospels (just as the skeptical Jesus seminar holds) and was most likely executed by Pilate about 29/30 CE. But other than that, Feldman accepts nothing about Jesus. He couldn't. He he accepted the rest, he would be a Christian!!! Not a Jew.
@DocReasonable Christian dogma evolved slowly. Take Galatians written by Paul in 50 CE for example. Dr. Ehrman likes to point this out. Paul says he met three men who knew Jesus in the flesh and heard him teach. John, Peter and Jesus' brother James. Yet Paul NOWHERE in this letter or in any of his letters says a world about the virgin birth. Why? Not important? These men who knew Jesus didn't tell Paul? Or did the doctrine NOT exist in 50 CE? I've got to go to work. Back tonight!
@DocReasonable You are out of step with skeptical scholars. Most skeptical scholars suggest it was Paul who began writing and fussing with those who were Jesus' original followers who began promoting the concept that Jesus rose from the dead well before there was an official Roman Catholic Church. Paul's letters predate the oldest gospel which as you pointed out correctly is Mark which was written about 70 CE. Also the oldest copy of John's gospel is missing the adulterous woman.
@DocReasonable Paul didn't exist either!!?? You are a fool. What authority on the New Testament and Christian origins would say such a thing? You have YET to name one Phd level or Masters degree level scholar/historian working the problem of Christian origins that rejects a historical Jesus not to mention Paul. If Paul didn't exist, then WHO wrote his seven genuine letters the most ardent skeptics I have in my library accept from him? WHO? I've never seen so much crazy bullshit.
Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him. There is no archeological evidence of his existence. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life or death or any other kind of first-hand record. All the accounts of Jesus come from decades or centuries later. Paul was not a companion of Jesus, never met or saw him and wrote 30-40 years after Jesus 'death'.
@DocReasonable Paul wrote 20 years after Jesus' death and met three men, one of whom was Jesus' brother in the flesh(they had the same mother) who knew Jesus in Jerusalem according to Galatians circa 50 CE. It is possible Peter wrote one of more of his NT letters. Scholars are divided about that. But they contain interpolations in places. There is no archeological evidence of Josephus and before 1961 of Pilate. Can you give me a contemporaneous account of Pilate's life?
@boblackey1 'Paul wrote 20 years after Jesus' death and met three men, one of whom was Jesus' brother in the flesh(they had the same mother) who knew Jesus in Jerusalem'
OK, fine - -WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THIS? It obviously is NOT in the BIble if it goes into THAT much detail, SO WHERE IS IT?!?
So... Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?
@DocReasonable There ARE people who claim that Jesus has appeared to them. The late Oral Roberts made that claim several times. Once he saw Jesus in his back yard and he was 9 feel tall. Hyram Maccoby, Bart Erhman, John Dominic Crosson, James Edwards, James Tabor, Robert Miller, Burton L. Mack and dozens of other scholars hold that Jesus existed but reject his divinity and resurrection as myth. To them the Jesus of the gospels didn't exist but was based a Jew who was a teacher.
@boblackey1 'there ARE people who claim that Jesus has appeared to them. The late Oral Roberts made that claim several times. Once he saw Jesus in his back yard and he was 9 feel tall. '
I just saw Bigfoot in my back yard and he was 12 feet tall. Send me a donation of $50 so I can go catch him.
So there's your lesson, asshole -- believe everything that any motherfucker tells you, because WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER LIE?!?! Gosh, MONEY perhaps??
@DocReasonable You don't understand. I don't believe Oral Roberts. To me either he was lying or was nuts. Billy Graham admitted to Larry King that he has never heard or saw God but does feel a leading in his heart. That sounds more like an honest man to me. What we are fussing about is not Jesus' divinity or the gospel claims for him but did he exist as a human being. I don't know who you are reading, but certainly it is not any of the skeptical scholars I have in my library.
NO, I'm talking about Jesus ACTUALLY VISIBLY APPEARING TO MULTIPLE PEOPLE as he did in the Bible after his 'death'. Also, God was constantly appearing PHYSICALLY to his followers in the Bible, so they had no trouble believing he was real.
Neither of them has been seen or heard from SINCE -- are they NOW DEAD??
I'm not talking about people who get a warm fuzzy feeling that lets them 'know' Jesus is real, I'm talking about genuine SIGHTINGS AND ACTIONS.
@DocReasonable The skeptical scholars I have in my library (Ehrman, Mack, Tabor, Edwards, Crosson, Miller etc) reject that Jesus appeared to anybody after his death. Jesus taught the sermon on the mount and the kingdom of God is at hand and within you and that historical layer from the real Jesus did make it into the gospels. Jesus' original followers including Peter, John and his brother James did not expert Jesus to get crucified. That would prove to a Jew he was false.
@DocReasonable So that had to scramble and scatter and the gospels admit that. Tacitus reports that after Jesus was executed that Christianity, an evil superstition, disappeared but broke out again and spread to Rome. Most skeptical scholars hold this happened due to the ministry of Paul who admitted he fought with the Jerusalem followers of Jesus and skeptics think he borrowed from pagan mystery religions for his doctrine after he had his vision on the road to Damascus.
@DocReasonable Skeptical scholars generally think Paul was struck by lightening and had a wild dream or had mental problems. But he became the lion for the NEW Jesus movement as he even challenged those still alive who heard and knew Jesus in Jerusalem. They also hold that the original Jesus movement as much different from what we have today as Christianity. Jesus was executed about 29 CE and Ehrman says the myths began after that much like the John Henry story or Washington.
@DocReasonable The skeptical scholars I have in my library DON'T believe the Christ Jesus of the gospels existed. But they DO believe Jesus existed as a human being, was a early first century Jewish teacher who had a following that thought him to be the Messiah. When he got executed, the movement all but disappeared and Paul gets involved and developed much of what he have today except the virgin birth. Paul didn't know about that even though he met three men who followed Jesus.
@DocReasonable I suggest you Google "Hyram Maccoby on Paul" and read this Jewish expert on the New Testament. Dr. Maccoby holds that it is likely Paul lied about being a Jew and that what he brought to the Jesus movement seems to have been borrowed from pagan mystery religions. Also read Maccoby's take on who the actual Jesus was and how he figures the original Jesus movement was much different from todays Christianity thanks to Paul and the later gospel writers etc.
@DocReasonable It is true the gospels most likely were not written by persons who knew Jesus in the flesh. Read Dr. Loisey's treatment on how the gospel of John most likely came to be with a core historical foundation which never presents Jesus as virgin born or anything other than a teacher and one of many who thought he was the Messiah but never claimed any power or divinity. Then myths, legends, interpolations and re-writes are lying on top of the core for what we have today.
One of the main things you ignore is Josephus was NOT A CONTEMPORARY OF JESUS!!
He was born in the year 37 CE, several years after Jesus' alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from is own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and whatever crap they said about their mythical founder. Even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.
@DocReasonable Another strawman argument!! What does that prove? At best Josephus recorded as did Tacitus that Jesus Christ (Christ means Messiah or anointed one, not last name) was the center of a Jewish cult that promoted him as the Jewish Messiah and that this Jesus was executed by Pilate. Josephus, like Tacitus and all historian, used sources when writing. Who in the hell wrote about Josephus or Tacitus or Pilate and most every other person who lived then while they lived?
@boblackey1 'Who in the hell wrote about Josephus or Pilate and most every other person who lived then while they lived?'
Oh, only people like Philo Judaeus, Roman record-keepers and other historians you stupid cunt. They were all genuine figures, unlike your stupid Jesus myth.
Philo Judaeus born 20 BC and died 50 AD; the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time, he lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus 'the Christ.' Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder.
@DocReasonable Would you think that a historian living in the mid 20th century writing about America would mention Oral Roberts or Benny Hinn or even Billy Graham? Also Josephus does mention Philo but the mention is very brief and takes up just a few lines. Philo must not have been that important to Josephus and his take on first century Israel.
BULLSHIT, Josephus wrote a thousand words about Philo, you cock.
'It's very interesting that there is one other account which, if it is authentic, does deal with the crucifixion. And that is by the Jewish historian Josephus. The question is whether Josephus really wrote it. And I've written about that, and I've come to the conclusion that he couldn't have written it' Louis Feldman
@DocReasonable Josephus wrote a thousand words about Philo you say? Go to Google or Wiki and take a look. Read how Philo is mentioned in Josephus. It is so brief that they quote the entire thing which takes up ONE paragraph. Josephus barely mentions Philo. And those are the facts. Stop with the over statements which are really lies.
@boblackey1 'Philo is so brief takes up ONE paragraph.'
Sure, one paragraph of a 1000 WORDS, dirtbag.
'the skeptical Jesus seminar holds'
The Jesus Seminar was apologetic CRAP based on the false premise that there WAS a real Jesus, and it's in the VESTED INTEREST of those people to say there's a historical Jesus. Otherwise they would have to admit the entire enterprise if futile.
The seminar treats the gospels as historical artifacts -- what does THAT tell you, LIAR?
@DocReasonable Name someone from the first century who was written about during their life time. Provide a first century copy of any work that describes the activities of a person while they were alive!! Until 1961 nothing existed about Pilate and even today we don't know when he died or is buried and the Pilate stone may have been carved AFTER he died. Josephus' life is not clear. When DID he die and where is he buried? Any exact records of that? NO!!
@boblackey1 'Josephus' life is not clear. When DID he die and where is he buried? Any exact records of that? NO!!'
We KNOW that Josephus existed BECAUSE HE WROTE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS and other works, you silly bastard. He was also mentioned by scribes including HIS CONTEMPORARY PHILO JUDAEUS
@DocReasonable WHO are the experts on Josephus who hold that the entire TF is a forgery, written by Eusebius and inserted in the 4th century. WHO are these experts and how do they KNOW this to be true and at odds of the work of other experts such as Alice Whealey, Phd or Dr. Goldberg at wwwdotjosephusdotorg ? FYI I do NOT think the Shroud is genuine and I'm rather agnostic about religion. Only interested in investigating the religion in which I was raised in view of experts.
@DocReasonable If you just went to wikipediadotorg and typed in Josephus on Jesus, just that alone would overturn your mistaken and ignorant position. Just that alone clearly states that the vast majority of Josephus experts and scholars hold that the TF was written by Josephus except it contains a slight "gloss" or "interpolation". They hold it is part interpolation but mostly from Josephus himself. Also I know of NO surviving copies of Josephus that date to the 5th century.10th!
Wiki CONFIRMS that the Josephus paragraphs were later interpolations you dumb hysterical fuck.
Encyclopaedia Britannica notes the following: 'That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe.' Bishop Warburton denounced it as 'a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too.
@boblackey1 You're either obtuse or gullible- take your pick.
"Jesus" is a fictional character. The bible is a book of fairy tales, most of which is plagiarised from other, much earlier religions.
If you really want to know the truth, read about the Egyptian god Horus. That's where your christ-myth came from. It's got the virgin birth, the death and resurrection, the whole shootin' match. Plus it's from 2500 BC, and is one of several such myths.
@gsmonks Your view is absolute trash. There are NO scholars who agree with that view working in the field. I invite you to name ONE Phd level scholar and expert on Christian origins & New Testament origins who teaches at a university such as Harvard or Cambridge or any state university such as the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill which Bart Ehrman, Phd is professor who holds such a view. Your view comes from hacks and amatures who have no standing in the field.
@DocReasonable You are making statement with nothing to back it up but hot air. ALL of the credible New Testament scholars/ experts on Christian origins hold that Jesus existed, said at least 13 percent of his quotes in the gospels, was executed by Ponitus Pilate & headed a Jewish cult which held he was the Messiah but ONE (Price). That he had a brother named James & several followers who were named John & Peter. That Paul met these men. Now it's likely the virgin brith wasn't discussed then!!
@boblackey1 That is balogna. There is zero evidence jesus actually existed. If you can produce one shred of evidence, you'll be the very first to do so.
@gsmonks "there is zero evidence jesus actually existed". That is complete bullshit. Where did you read that? Did you get that from this amature video? For starters, try the website wwwdotjosephusdotorg and click on the links for josephus on jesus.
@gsmonks "Josephus never mentioned jesus". Well that is a damn lie and I challenge you to back up such a claim! Who are the Phd level scholars and historians who make such a claim. Certainly not Louis Feldman, Phd or Alice Whealey, Phd who are two of the most noted experts on Josephus in the world!! Indeed Feldman says what we have from Josephus contains most of what he wrote about Jesus and Whealey's work proves Josephus mentioned Jesus. Also wwwdotjosephusdotorg is excellent support.
Virtually all historians agree on the fact that "Noah", "Moses", "Adam & Eve", "Abraham", "David" and so on never existed, but very many seem to accept that "Jesus" existed even though there is virtually no evidence supporting that he did.. It's weird!: )
1 minute 6 seconds in there you see "The Crucified Orpheus Bacchus". This is a forgery from around 5 - 6 centuries after Christ. Like all of the so-called parallels in this video, they are all fakes. I study historical evidence from ancient times so everything that tried to make wild claims must have real historical evidence from the time and not stuff from much later sources.
@hanspeterpitsch No rational being can deny the existance of Jesus Christ in Judea early first century. He is the most historically attested person at that time. The historical evidence is irrefutable.
@hanspeterpitsch It is historical narrative. You are unable to repute that Adam did not exist. However, due to our increase in knowledge in how genetics works it is clear that mans genes are not as robust to withstand diseases etc. Our genetic material is becoming more and more specialised and not as adaptable as it once was. It points to a genetically perfect 1st man. Call him Adam if you will.
@Surfxeo Hm Well no it is not. Actually many adams existed throughout human history. but that one adam in the bible? We can dismiss that, it's a fictional story, nothing more. There's no reason to see it as anymore than this.
What are you even talking about, a first perfect man? Really? Next thing you tell me evolution is nonsense.
@hanspeterpitsch Adam did exist as Christ himself stated and I cannot dismiss this as it was said by the one person who cannot lie.
Ancient Greeks called evolution "The Great Chain Of Being", it isn't a new "scientific" discovery but a rehash of ancient pagan beliefs.
If you believe the myth that we evolved from something as basic as a single cell organism then you have to rational way to say that Creation is a fictional story. It is called revelation
Ok, so, Jesus cannot lie. 1. Where does he say that about adam? 2. Jesus' existence is still not proven, so you'd have to do that first. 3. IF he existed, which I wouldn't have a problem with by the way, what is this nonsense about him not being able to lie? Any evidence for that?
Well as for evolution, I guess I just have to conclude that you're uneducated about it. It is a scientific theory, if you know what that means. Based on observation and evidence.
@Surfxeo Well, no they don't, or can you show me where it says that they do?
Oh ok so if I said I was god, and since a god cannot lie(I don't see why, but we'll go with it for the sake of argument) that would make me a person that cannot lie, therefor it would be true that I'm god?
Have you ever heard of circular logic? That's what you're doing here.
And the bible, again, proves nothing. You can't prove the bible by using the bible, don't you get that?
@hanspeterpitsch If you truly were God I would ask for evidence. What kind of evidence you may rightly ask. I would look for evidence that there was something special about you that other people do not posses such as knowledge, expressions of power and fulfilment of ancient prophecy. Which Christ did.
I do not says that I am using the Bible to prove the Bible. The Bible can be shown to be consistant with other historical evidence not to mention it shows what man is more than any other book.
@Surfxeo - Are you mad? The Romans destroyed Jerusalem, defeated the Jews and created Christianity. The gospels came first. They are a satire on the Roman-Jewish war, with Vespasian (the father) and Titus (the good son) being reflected through Jesus/God. Bingo.
This means that Jesus was NOT real and was actually a fictional Messiah character in a book. All your evidence will point to the Flavians because that is the source of Christianity.
@Franknarfable I base my comments based on all on the earliest evidence.
It is you that is made making the assertion that the Romans invented Christianity. I never laughed so hard when I read your reply. Still makes me chuckle.
Where to begin. The Roman authories were persecuting the Christians for the 1st 300 years. Christianians were killed in from from as early as 55 AD. We have hostile pagan sources mentioning how much they were persecuted.
@Franknarfable Nero, Emperor 54 - 68 AD, is famously quoted as making a new law "Christians to the lions".
We have Josephus and many others to confirm the truth that the Gospels are historically accurate.
Obviously with the destruction of Jerusalem the Gospels had to be written in Isreal before 70 AD because otherwise we wouldn't be able to know what happened in Judeah in the time of Christ.
Christianity is based on Judaism and nothing else. Hense we have 66 books and not 27 in our Bible.
@Franknarfable Jesus is the most well attested perons from antiquity. There is no one else from this time period that is so well documented. If you don't believe that He existed then your assertion is a faith statement based on nothing but hot air. All professional historians who specialise in this field agree with me.
“Christian” simply means a follower of a Christ – a leader claiming to have been foreseen by the Jews’ messianic prophecies. The word Kristos is Greek for the Hebrew word Messiah. So while the Romans did indeed persecute “Christians” in the way that history recorded, these were not “Jesus Christians” but Jewish zealots.
After all, it was the Jews who where engaged in conflicts with the Romans for well over 100 years. They where seen as terrorists by the Romans/Nero.
@Franknarfable Actually Kristos (Xpistos) is more properly pronounced with a Ch as in the Scottish Gaelic for Lo'ch', rather than a 'K'. Messiah and Christ are the same word.
The Romans did not regard the Jews as terrorists. They only saw them like every other society they conquered. By the time of Christs ministry it was reasonably quite because a few decades before Julius Caesar had knocked out any Jewish resistence.
We know who and what Martyred Christians said and did in Rome.
to say that Jesus didn't exist, whether the divine or a mere man is the epitome of idiocy!
AppalachianKnight77 1 month ago
@AppalachianKnight77 Not true. There is little to no evidence that the jesus from the bible is a historical figure.
baphxiii 1 month ago
@baphxiii The evidence that Jesus existed is overwhelming. There are multiple contemporaneous and near contemporaneous accounts of His life and deeds. Arguing there is no evidence for Jesus is akin to arguing there is no evidence for Socrates or Hannibal or for the Battle of Cannae.
"No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we now know a considerable amount about his actions and his basic teachings" James H. Charlesworth
nnjhansen 1 month ago
@nnjhansen I never said a man named jesus never lived. What I was saying was that what is claimed in the bible is not accurate. There is little to no evidence found outside the bible about a man named jesus.
baphxiii 1 month ago
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@baphxiii Why would such evidence have to be found outside the Bible?
nnjhansen 1 month ago
@nnjhansen 'The evidence that Jesus existed is overwhelming. There are multiple contemporaneous and near contemporaneous accounts of His life'
BULLSHIT. there is NOTHING contemporary... NAME SOME!!
DocReasonable 3 weeks ago
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@DocReasonable The Epistles of Paul for starters.
nnjhansen 3 weeks ago
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75% of the people in this country are Christians. Just about 50% of the entire U.S. population are creationists. This alone makes the United States the largest loony bin on the planet -- the 8th wonder of the world you can see from space.
saburius 1 month ago
There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed. Not even a first hand eyewitness testimony, but even if there was, it would be completely useless now wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people living today who can give you first hand eyewitness testimony of ufo abduction, pink unicorns, tooth-fairies and the flying spaghetti monster.
Besides, it is NOT Jesus's existence that Christians have to prove. It is that he was Christ. Without that, Christianity wouldn't even exist.
saburius 1 month ago
75% of the people in this country are Christians. Just about 50% of the entire U.S. population are creationists. This alone makes the United States the largest loony bin on the planet -- the 8th wonder of the world you can see from space.
saburius 1 month ago
There is not one shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed. Not even a first hand eyewitness testimony, but even if there was, it would be completely useless now wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people living today who can give you first hand eyewitness testimony of ufo abduction, pink unicorns, tooth-fairies and the flying spaghetti monster.
Besides, it is NOT Jesus's existence that Christians have to prove. It is that he was Christ. Without that, Christianity wouldn't even exist.
saburius 1 month ago
@saburius I would say it is the opposite and I say this as an agnostic. It is up to those who insist Jesus never existed to prove it didn't which they can't. Indeed all the evidence indicates he DID exist and 99.9% Phd level experts on the origin of the New Testament and Christianity accept a historical Jesus for several reasons. It is silly and bullshit to say there is not one shred of evidence. That is bullshit. The rub is with the post death Jesus in the books I have from skeptics.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'It is up to those who insist Jesus never existed to prove it didn't which they can't. '
NO, it's the other way around you stupid fucking bastard. You're the one making the absurd claim, YOU prove it!! There's no need for us to prove a NEGATIVE you hysterical shithead.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable I'm making the absurd claim!!?? The position that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was head of a Jewish movement with followers who thought him to be the Messiah is the MAINSTREAM position and has been for 2,000 years. Today 99.9 percent of the experts in the field who are agnostic/skeptic hold that Jesus did exist and about 12% of his actual words are in the gospels with the rest made up and put in is mouth by the unknown gospel writers. What experts hold with you?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@5rooker BTW- you evidently don't know much about the Pauline epistles. They're not only not contemporary, but are widely thought to be forgeries whose purposed intent was to justify later beliefs.
gsmonks 1 month ago
@5rooker That is balogna. You obviously have never travelled to the Middle East, or anywhere outside the US.
gsmonks 1 month ago
@5rooker The jesus myth is just a regurgitation of the same myth from earlier times. Even the egyptian god Horus, dating from 2500 BC, isn't the original, but Horus was said to be born of a virgin, died, resurrected, and yadda, yadda, yadda. Like the jesus myth, there's no evidence he existed, either.
gsmonks 1 month ago
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@5rooker 'Jesus is the only being, who people talk about on the world view stage such as the media we see on tv, places, and in everyday life. '
Are you REALLY so retarded you've never heard of Mohammed, Allah, Buddha etc, you slobbering DULLARD?!
DocReasonable 1 month ago
Hail Atheism , fuck Jesus
AgentMirage 2 months ago
O AND BY THE WAY WE DO KNOW WHEN JESUS WAS BORN MY BE YOU SHOULD DO YOUR RESEARCH PROPLY leonardo da vinci PAINTED JESUS THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY DISCRIBE JESUS AND IT WASNT THAT LONG AFTER JESUS DIED THAT HE PAINTED JESUS!!!!!!
lilladione 2 months ago
@lilladione You are clearly a moron and have no idea when da Vinci lived- 1452-1519, almost fifteen hundred years after the fact.
It is well-known that there was no historical Jesus. It's a myth.
gsmonks 2 months ago
@gsmonks "it is well-known that there was no historical Jesus. It's a myth" What are you? A fool? Well known by whom? That has me laughing and rolling on the floor!!! There are virtually NO experts in the field of New Testament origins or historians who deal with first century Israel who hold that Jesus never existed. What horseshit!! It's clear you've been reading a book that was written by some amature hack who hasn't a clue as to what they are talking about!! Sorry to burst your bubble.
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1 I don't know what you're smoking, but no REPUTABLE archaeologist or historian believes or can show evidence that Jesus ever existed.
But you're not really interested in the facts, now, are you.
gsmonks 2 months ago
@gsmonks I'm not smoking a damn thing. You're a liar! It is horseshit that no REPUTABLE archaeologist or historian believes or can show evidence that Jesus ever existed. What book(s) have you been reading? You have been suckered by some amature hack. The opposite is true!! I have dozens of books by experts who not only show that Jesus existed, but have isolated his actual words from the bogus Jesus quotes in the gospels. Are you an expert in this field? Not a good one if you think you are! Man!
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1
The works of Philo Judaeus born 20 BC and died 50 AD; the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time, he lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus 'the Christ.' Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder.
DocReasonable 2 months ago
@DocReasonable Philo was the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time? Lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus? Where did you get that? Philo wrote next to nothing about Judaism and did he not spend most of his life in Egypt? The Jews paid little attention to his writings and they were preserved by the church fathers. If a historian was writing about America in 1980, do you expect him to mention Oral Roberts? This proves nothing.
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1
It proves nothing to YOU, because you are a denialist crybaby who shuns and fears all of the facts that point to Jesus never existing. It makes you want to cry that you've wasted your life worshipping a fantasy, so instead of being a man and facing up to it, you bury your head under the blankets and say 'NO!! NO!! NO!!!'
If Jesus DID exist, he would have been the most remarkable man of his age, and would have been noted by EVERY historian, scribe and academic in the area.
DocReasonable 2 months ago
@DocReasonable But Jesus did exist and your position in NOT held by any professional scholars and historians in the field except one, Robert Price, Phd, and he "doubts" Jesus existed, fails to rule it out completely. There is more evidence that Jesus DID exist than didn't. Who are the experts in the field on New Testament origins, Christian origins etc who find NO evidence that Jesus did not live? Give me the names. And what facts point to Jesus not existing? Indeed facts say he did exist!!!
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1
NOBODY with any credibility still maintains that Jesus was an historical figure, you hysterical retard.
If you have any proof that he DID live, you'll be the first. And don't just parrot off the usual names of people who lived 100+ years later, that ain't gonna cut it, jackass.
DocReasonable 2 months ago
@DocReasonable That is the most laughable thing one could say!! You are a NUT!! "Nobody with any credibility still maintains that Jesus was a historical figure"? On which planet to you live? My library is full of books by skeptical/critical Phd level scholars and historians who not only hold that Jesus lived but isolate words he actually said among the many words in the gospels these skeptics say were made up & Jesus never said. Again can you name ONE Phd level expert in this field who says no?
boblackey1 2 months ago
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@boblackey1 'My library is full of books by skeptical/critical Phd level scholars and historians who not only hold that Jesus lived'
Name a SINGLE ONE OF THEM you lying retard -- JUST ONE.
'at least 13 percent of his quotes in the gospels, was executed by Ponitus Pilate & headed a Jewish cult'
BULLCRAP. Pontius Pilate DID exist, however.
DocReasonable 2 months ago
@DocReasonable You stupid fool! I can name dozens. Bart Ehrman, Phd, James Tabor, Phd, Burton L. Mack, Phd, Marques Borg, Phd, Robert Miller, Phd, John Dominic Crosson, Phd, James Edwards, Phd etc etc. What hacks have you been reading? Your not reasonable and not a doc. You're a quack:-)
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
BULLSHIT -- none of those people is a PhD you slobbering dickhead, AND NONE OF THEM HAS ANY EVIDENCE FOR JESUS.
Try again, you lying scum.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Google Bart Ehrman or James Tabor just for starters and you will see not only do they have a Phd but where they earned their Phd. You are living in a dream world and it seems you are being fed by a bunch of amatures and quacks such as Kenneth Humphreys. And they all have evidence for Jesus you idiot!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Ehrman is AGAINST an historical Jesus IDIOT!!
In his book 'Forged', Bart Ehrman deals with the evidence that many canonical works were forgeries, and the inability of Christian apologists to deal with this embarrassing fact. Ehrman tears these rationalizations to pieces, pointing out they are unsupported by even a shred of evidence. A typical intrusion is the tale in the Gospel of John of the woman taken in adultery. The story is missing from earliest manuscripts.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Doc you are one of the biggest fools and UNINFORMED persons I've ever met on the internet. Bart Ehrman STRONGLY SUPPORTS the existence of a historical Jesus. Just type in "Ehrman/Infidel Guy" and listen to that interview here on YouTube and how Ehrman presses the point that Jesus DID exist as a human being! The tale of the woman in John's gospel is noted in all study bibles as missing in the oldest manuscripts. Any Christian who can study knows that!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Josephus DID NOT LIVE AT THE TIME OF JESUS, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? He wrote 70 YEARS LATER!
AND the earliest copies of his writings are from the 5th century AD!! Honest scholars universally dismiss this as a forgery by Eusebius. Why would an ORTHODOX JEW have been PRAISING JESUS ANYWAY?
Provide me with the name of ANYONE who wrote about Christ during his SUPPOSED LIFETIME. As it stands, we have ZERO Roman, Jewish or Pagan records of him from his SUPPOSED LIFETIME.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You ARE an idiot. The absolute majority of scholars accept Josephus' report on Jesus being executed by Pilate as from Josephus with the exception of a couple of interpolations added later including two of the best Josephus scholars. Louis Feldman, Phd and Alice Whealey, Phd. Go to wwwdotjosephusdotorg and get some education.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
HAHA!! Josephus said NOTHING about Jesus being executed OR Pilate, not even in the forgeries!!
You laughable RETARD!
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You call me a laughable RETARD and anyone who has studied this fuss can see that you don't even know what your talking about. You need to get an education in this field and KNOW what persons such as Ehrman teaches and what Josephus scholars such as Feldman and Whealey hold about Josephus. Josephus DOES mention Jesus being executed by Pilate. That part is NOT among the few lines scholars think were interpolated. Learn before you speak. PLEASE. wwwdotjosephusdotorg
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'Josephus DOES mention Jesus being executed by Pilate.'
Go ahead and PROVIDE THE QUOTE, you stupid lying bastard.
Ehrman is NOT on your side, retard, his views have CHANGED since the old material you mention.
All the ranting and raving in the world is not going to make you right, you slavering maniac.
I've seen rabid DOGS that made more sense.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Provide the quote? You idiot. You don't even know that the TF passage in Josephus clearly says Jesus was crucified by Pilate!! "when Pilate, due to accusations from some of our principal men, condemned him to the cross" (quoting Josephus found in ALL manuscripts) and leading Josephus expert Louis Feldman, Phd writes: "The most likely view is our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote". See wwwdotjosephusdotorg and noticed the part about Pilate is not fake
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable I have ALL of Bart Ehrman's books including "Forged" and have written him several times via Email at the office at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and if you think Bart Ehrman today holds that Jesus of Nazareth never existed as a human being, you are WRONG!! Ehrman rejects the divinity of Jesus, his virgin birth etc but absolutely holds he existed as a human being & his original followers didn't expect him to be crucified. That was a surprise to all.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable It is a damn shame to get on this site and have to put up with your silly rantings and lies. Either you are a damn liar or you are ignorant of the facts. Either you are a liar or you have NO idea what Bart Ehrman holds or what the leading experts on Josephus such as Louis Feldman, Phd or Alice Whealey, Phd hold and Whealey and Dr. Goldberg at josephusdotorg prove that Josephus wrote about Jesus and his execution by Pilate. Those are the facts. Sorry you failed.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Oh, THIS is your fucking quote??
'when Pilate, due to accusations from some of our principal men, condemned him to the cross'
The Romans crucified THOUSANDS of criminals, you fucking JACKASS!!! BUT NOWHERE IS THE NAME JESUS MENTIONED BY THEM, THE JEWS OR ANY OTHER SCRIBE!!!
The FACT is that Josephus mentioned PILATE but he DID NOT EVER MENTION JESUS CHRIST.
Stop crying, you lame asshole, go cuddle up to Santa Claus instead.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You are an idiot and a liar who plays loose with the facts. Anyone who has read the TF passage in Josephus KNOWS Jesus Christ is the subject of that quote. You said that Pilate was NOT mentioned in the passage so I provided just that portion of it. You are a fool!! Also Dr. Whealey and Dr. Goldberg have PROVED that the TF was written by Josephus with some minor interpolations added later by a Christian scribe BUT THE SENTENCE WITH PILATE'S NAME IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'BUT THE SENTENCE WITH PILATE'S NAME IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!'
I fully agree that Pilate was mentioned by Josephus, but NOT in relation to executing Jesus you hysterical maniac.
Pilate IS a genuine historical figure, but Jesus is an invented fantasy.
Get over it, clown.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Can you find me a Phd level expert on Josephus or Christian origins other than Robert Price (even Price admits Jesus could have existed but he doubts it) who holds that Jesus didn't exist as a human being and led a movement probably started by John the Baptist which promoted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah which also included his brother James which began in Jerusalem? You are a dipshit liar. You have NO evidence or expert who would say Jesus is invented fantasy.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable I suggest you quit with your insane posts to my posts as even one with just a passing understanding of the facts concerning Josephus, Jesus and Pilate can easily see that your posts are making you look like a damn fool with NO HINT of what the facts are and the conclusions of the experts on Josephus and his works. You go cuddle up to Santa Claus as you seem to have the knowledge of a child on this subject.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'I suggest you quit with your insane posts to my posts as even one with just a passing understanding of the facts concerning Josephus, '
Yes, you'd like that you retarded, scatter-brained piece of shit apologist. Too bad, jackass.
Josephus - a paragraph inserted in the 4th century by Eusebius
Tacitus - called christianity 'a most mischievous superstition'
Mara bar Sarapion - wrote a vague letter about a king being executed, NO mention of Jesus
More to come, dipshit.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable "Josephus-a paragraph inserted in the 4th century by Eusebius" That is NOT accurate and at odds with the work of modern Josephus experts such as Alice Whealey, Phd, Louis Feldman, Phd and Dr. Goldberg in his book and website wwwdotjosephusdotorg I dare YOU to provide the expert, the scholar, the historian, who holds that the TF was inserted by Eusebius in the 4th century. There are NO experts who hold that view. So you can't provide one now can you!!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
You have a couple of christian apologists from the last century who deny the Josephus quotes were interpolations. Big deal, turd.
The earliest copies of his writings are from the 5th century AD. Honest scholars universally dismiss this as a forgery by Eusebius. Why would an ORTHODOX JEW have been PRAISING JESUS ANYWAY?
I'm sure you think the Shroud of Turin is genuine too, you hysterical, desperate lunatic.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable That is a damn LIE!!! Only a couple of Christian apologists?? Louis Feldman, Phd is Jewish not Christian. I have NO idea what Alice Whealey, Phd holds for a religion if any. WHO ARE THE HONEST SCHOLARS WHO UNIVERSALLY DISMISS THIS AS A FORGERY BY EUSEBIUS?? NAME THREE! TWO! NAME JUST ONE!! You don't have ANY Phd level experts on Josephus who say such a thing! Can anybody reading this provide ONE expert on Josephus who holds the TF was inserted in the 4th century?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable It is CLEAR you don't know what your talking about. It is clear you have not read the huge volume by Alice Whealey, Phd or the works of Louis Feldman, Phd or visited just the website of Dr. Goldberg which is: wwwdotjosephusdotorg It is NOT true Josephus praised Jesus. You have NO idea what Josephus actually wrote and how experts know what he wrote and what are the couple interpolations which were added later by some scribe to tweak the passage to be Christian.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'It is NOT true Josephus praised Jesus.'
It certainly isn't, but the interpolation has him doing JUST THAT.
Why don't you go and READ IT you fucking clown??
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You either don't have eyes or are just unable to surrender your incorrect position due to pride..or ignorance. The passage in question is NOT a complete interpolation. A few words were added by an UNKNOWN scribe after Josephus wrote. It has been proved by several experts (you can read complete details at wwwdotjosephusdotorg) that originally the passage didn't read exactly as it does in most manuscripts that exist today with the oldest dating to the 10th century.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable There are three positions. 1) the passage was written as it reads today by Josephus. 2) the passage is a complete interpolation (forgery). 3) the passage was written by Josephus does report Jesus being thought by his followers to be the Jewish Messiah and was crucified by Pilate but AFTER Josephus wrote the core passage, it was altered slightly by an unknown person. The 3rd position has been shown by several experts to be the correct position thus you are in error.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable If you had actually been to Wiki, you would have read "Currently, the most widely held scholarly opinion is that the Testimonium Flavianum is PARTIALLY AUTHENTIC; but the words that correspond with standard Christian confession are additions to the text made by a later Christian copyist". And "Alice Whealey, Phd points out that Michael the Syrian's text is identical with Jerome's at the most contentious point "he was the Christ" becoming "he was believed to be the..
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable "he was believed to be the Christ" which proves the existence of a Greek manuscript that predates Michael and Jerome as Latin & Syriac writers did not read each others works in late antiquity. Dr. Whealey has argued the word "mistabra" meaning "was supposed to be" has a skeptical connotation asndis likely what Origen read when he reported Josephus did NOT believe Jesus to be the Christ. This just is the tip of the iceberg. If you want to go deep, get Whealey's book
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
One of the main things you ignore is Josephus was NOT A CONTEMPORARY OF JESUS!!
He was born in the year 37 CE, several years after Jesus' alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from is own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and whatever crap they said about their mythical founder. Even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.
You lose on every level, fucko.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable So WHAT? Who wrote about Josephus while he was alive? Or Pilate? Or John the Baptist and most any other person who lived in the first century. And what DID Josephus write about that happened while he was alive in his works? By your standard, Josephus is not reliable for a damn thing.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus’ work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.
Give it up, fuckwit.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable "its brevity disproves its authenticity". Who wrote that? YOU? The passage about Jesus and his execution by Pilate occurs in and as part of a much longer passage about Pilate. The Jesus account is part of Josephus' passage about Pilate. You are either not a scholar or have quoted some hack and amature.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Equally damning is the fact that the early Christian fathers were not acquainted with it. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all would have quoted this passage had it existed in their time. The failure of even one of these fathers to notice it would be sufficient to throw doubt upon its genuineness; the failure of all of them to notice it proves conclusively that it is spurious, that it was not in existence until centuries later.
TURD :)
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable The works of Alice Whealey, Phd, Louis Feldman, Phd and Dr. Goldberg at wwwdotjosephusdotorg contradict and dismiss this short sighted quote. Dr. Whealey proves that Origen knew that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the Christ due to the wording of the TF passage in it's original form. And Origen does quote the shorter "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage AT A TIME WHEN ROME STILL HAVE CONTROL OF JOSEPHUS' WORK, NOT CHRISTIANS!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Also it is doubtful that most early Christian fathers even had access to Josephus' work and even read it.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Dr. Alexander Campbell, one of America’s ablest Christian apologists, says: 'Josephus was contemporary with the Apostles. He had every access to know all that took place at the rise of the Christian religion. The present copies of his work contain one passage which speaks very respectfully of Jesus Christ. But as Josephus did not embrace Christianity, and as this passage is not quoted or referred to until the beginning of the fourth century, it is accounted spurious'
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Dr. Campbell is mistaken. The latest work by experts on Josephus addresses that objection and indeed the majority view by Josephus experts is that the passage originally was worded by Josephus with a skeptical tone about Jesus being the Christ. The is clearly what Origen read when he himself wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Christ.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
'This passage is probably genuine with the exception of the clause, 'who was called Christ' which is undoubtedly an interpolation, and is generally regarded as such. Nearly all the authorities that I have quoted reject it.' John E. Remsburg
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Here you have John E. Remsburg supporting the majority view that the passage is genuine with the exception of the clause "who was called Christ" and as Dr. Whealey and Dr. Goldberg have shown, the original Greek read "was believed to be the Christ" or "thought by them to have been the Christ". Also do you know WHO Remsburg is? He is NOT an expert at anything with NO degree. He is but a amature skeptic and critic of Christianity who died in 1919.
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1
What's an 'amature' you retard? That word is as bogus as your ludicrous, desperate claims.
'Dr. Campbell is mistaken.'
Yeah, sure. Everyone who disagrees with you absurd, devious fantasy is 'mistaken'.
'Also it is doubtful that most early Christian fathers even had access to Josephus' work and even read it.'
Why? It was the most widespread historical material of the day, you lying moron.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@boblackey1
'The fact that the early fathers, who were acquainted with Josephus, and who would have hailed with joy even this evidence of Christ’s existence, do not cite it, while Origen expressly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ, is conclusive proof that it did not exist until the middle of the third century or later. ' John E. Remsburg
DO you understand the SIGNIFICANCE of this, butthead? Can you respond without frothing like a rabid dog?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Here John E. Remsburg is either misquoted or Remsburg is a lying dog who full of horse shit. It is complete bullshit and Remsburg had to have known it, so I'm guessing he is misquoted, the Origen experssly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ. Origen quotes the "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage and actually wrote "Josephus not believing that Jesus was the Christ". That is NOT "never mentioned Christ" Stop with the misinformation and crap!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'Origen quotes the "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage and actually wrote "Josephus not believing that Jesus was the Christ". '
WRONG, you fucking liar -- Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, 'did not acknowledge Christ'.
So unless you suffer from dyslexia and cannot understand what you read, FUCK YOU you lying HACK!!!
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You are the fucking liar my friend. You can NOT provide ANY expert or scholar on Josephus or Origen who would write such a lie. Origen NEVER wrote "did not acknowledge Christ". Origen wrote "Josephus, while not believing Jesus was the Christ"!!! There is NO way out for you. Origen NEVER indicates Josephus never mentioned Jesus but that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ (Messiah of the Jews). That is the hole you just fell through. Sorry.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
As G.A. Wells points out in The Jesus Myth, not only do several Church fathers from the second, third and early fourth centuries have no apparent knowledge of the TF, but even after Eusebius suddenly 'found' it in the first half of the fourth century, several other fathers into the fifth 'often cite Josephus, but not this passage.' (Wells, JM, 202) In the 5th century, Church father Jerome cited the TF once, with obvious disinterest, as if he knew it was fraudulent.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Didn't learn a darn thing from Dr. Alice Whealey who has an earned M. A. in demogaphy and an earned Phd in history from U. C. Berkley and published "Josephus on Jesus", a huge volume covering the TF controversy from antiquity to today in 2003, a volume that was suggested to me by Josephus expert Louis Feldman, Phd who is Jewish and professor at New York University via Email seveal years ago. During their time the TF was negative about Jesus being the Messiah.
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1
@boblackey1
CHRIST, you're fucking STUPID!!! THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS AMATURE!!!!
GO BACK TO FUCKING KINDERGARTEN, YOU RETARDED SHIT.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Justin Martyr (c 100-c 165) who obviously pored over Josephus's works makes no mention of the TF (BTW it's Josephus' works). Where the hell did you get that? There is NO indication that Justin or ANY early church father had a copy of Josephus save Origen. During their time, Rome had not converted to Christinaity and Christians did not control the preservation of Josephus' works. Josephus is NEVER mentioned in Justin's genuine work. NEVER!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable All of this is a lame attempt to suggest that Justin, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria were busy reading and re-reading Josephus when the truth is that most likely never read Josephus at all and never had a copy of his work. Josephus' work was not preserved by Christian scribes BEFORE Rome converted to Christianity. Indeed it is most likely Justin never saw a copy of Josephus. This is a strawman argument and is worthless and bullshit.
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1 'Josephus' work was not preserved by Christian scribes BEFORE Rome converted to Christianity. This is a strawman argument and is worthless and bullshit.'
Sure is, you dumb cunt. Nothing you say about Josephus is RELEVANT ANYWAY, AS HE LIVED AFTER 'CHRIST',
Give us the name of ONE fucking scribe who lived WITH JESUS you cowardly lying SHIT.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Also where is the proof the early fathers were acquainted with Josephus. Where is the proof most of the early fathers heard of or read or had copies to read of Josephus?? Indeed during the time of the earliest church fathers including Origen who did read Josephus, Rome had control of those works not the church. The church preserved Josephus' works later through copies made by scribes which it did most other first century works that survive today.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable And finally if John E. Remsburg is the expert you cite to refute modern experts such as Louis Feldman, Phd, Alice Whealey, Phd, James Tabor, Phd etc etc did you NOT notice Remsburg is not an expert at anything. Has NO degree and never taught first century history or Josephus at any university in the world. He was a skeptic of Christianity who wrote as an amature just as people such as Earl Doherty, Ken Humphreys or Acharya S do today. Hacks is what they are!!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Again, you fuckwit, WHAT IS AN AMATURE????
You have ZERO credibility, you hysterical, illiterate HACK.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Let me explain it so you can even understand. Mr. John E. Remsburg (no degree) equals "amature".Dr. Alice Whealey, Phd equals "expert". Mr. Kenneth Humphreys, (ooops no degree) equals amature. Acharya S. (Ms. D. M. Murdock, oh no she has no degree and like the others can't teach at a university) equals amature. Dr. Louis Feldman, Phd retired professor and Josephus expert at New York University equals expert. Mr. Frank Zindler high school biology teacher, amature.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
CHRIST, you're fucking STUPID!!! THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS AMATURE!!!!
GO BACK TO FUCKING KINDERGARTEN, YOU RETARDED SHIT.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable That is the spelling of amateur that you used to me when you were fussing with me as KenDyre up to just a month ago. Same arguments and same style. I've noticed many people on YouTube spell it amature rather than amateur. Is it either or now or what?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'you were fussing with me as KenDyre up to just a month ago.'
You've REALLY lost it now, you stupid fucking prick!! Do you think everyone who disagrees with your crap must be the SAME PERSON you fuckheaded dipshit?!
No, I can SPELL you wanking fucktard - -unlike ANY of you uneducated and utterly hysterical apologist lunatics.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable I am NOT an apologist. I'm not religious and I'm agnostic about religion. I was raised in a Christian denomination but even as a child was somehow agnostic. About 12 years ago, a person gave me a book by Earl Doherty that claimed Jesus didn't even exist as a human being. Noticing that Earl was not a professional in the field but an "amature;-)" I decided to turn to the experts who were not believers but skeptics and found almost NO support for the Jesus myth theory.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Louis Feldman does NOT say Jesus was an historical figure, you nutjob. He also says the Josephus account is bogus. Why are you lying about these people being on YOUR side?
NEWSFLASH -- Jews do NOT BELIEVE JESUS EXISTED.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Another LIE!! Do you have Dr. Feldman's book? I DO!! "The most LIKELY VIEW SEEMS TO BE THAT OUR TEXT REPRESENTS SUBSTANTIALLY WHAT JOSEPHUS WROTE, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator" PAGE 49 of Feldman's book. Another lie is Jews do not believe Jesus existed. Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Indeed the ONLY Phd level skeptical New Testament scholar who doubts but does not completely reject a historical Jesus that I could find is Robert Price, Phd. There is Richard Carrier, Phd but Carrier is not really a New Testament scholar but is a historian and pushes the myth theory but he admits that it is possible that Jesus did exist as a man. As to Josephus, all the experts I can find hold the TF is part genuine/part interpolation. Feldman is Jewish. Whealey ??
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
'But one thing is clear, that the earliest of the Gospels certainly, usually said to be Mark, dates from around the year 70, which is long after the time of Jesus, who apparently died in the year 29. And that Jesus never wrote anything. You know, if you had an inquest in the case of Jesus, who killed Jesus, you don't have a body. You don't have anything he wrote. None of the authors of the Gospels ever talked to him. So you have nothing.'
Louis Feldman, YOUR WITNESS!!
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable "who apparently died in the year 20" proves this passage from Feldman isn't talking about whether Jesus actually lived as a human being. Louis Feldman, Phd, a man I wrote several times via Email at New York University, is very sensitive about the Jews being blamed for Jesus' being executed. Feldman holds that is not the case and is a Christian distortion.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'ensitive about the Jews being blamed for Jesus' being executed. Feldman holds that is not the case and is a Christian distortion. '
Of course it's a distortion. It never EVEN HAPPENED, you dumb fuck.
Regarding the 'life' and apparent (alleged) 'death' of Jesus, Feldman says 'You don't have a body. You don't have anything he wrote. None of the authors of the Gospels ever talked to him. So you have nothing.'
That's Feldman saying THERE WAS NO JESUS you stupid FUCK.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable That is another lie and stretch. I know for a FACT that Dr. Feldman holds that Jesus did exist as a first century Jewish teacher who probably said about 12 percent of the his quotes in the gospels (just as the skeptical Jesus seminar holds) and was most likely executed by Pilate about 29/30 CE. But other than that, Feldman accepts nothing about Jesus. He couldn't. He he accepted the rest, he would be a Christian!!! Not a Jew.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Christian dogma evolved slowly. Take Galatians written by Paul in 50 CE for example. Dr. Ehrman likes to point this out. Paul says he met three men who knew Jesus in the flesh and heard him teach. John, Peter and Jesus' brother James. Yet Paul NOWHERE in this letter or in any of his letters says a world about the virgin birth. Why? Not important? These men who knew Jesus didn't tell Paul? Or did the doctrine NOT exist in 50 CE? I've got to go to work. Back tonight!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
The tales of Jesus did not exist until very late in the 'first' century, you deluded fuck.
The Gospel of Mark (THE FIRST GOSPEL WRITTEN) DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS BEING RESURRECTED. That nonsense was added much later.
The last twelve verses, 16:9–20, are not present in two 4th-century manuscripts Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, the earliest complete manuscripts of Mark.
The legend of Christ rising from the grave is a latter-day fabrication by the Catholic church.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You are out of step with skeptical scholars. Most skeptical scholars suggest it was Paul who began writing and fussing with those who were Jesus' original followers who began promoting the concept that Jesus rose from the dead well before there was an official Roman Catholic Church. Paul's letters predate the oldest gospel which as you pointed out correctly is Mark which was written about 70 CE. Also the oldest copy of John's gospel is missing the adulterous woman.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Paul didn't exist either, you motherfucking jackass.
Jesus fuck, do you think Spider-man and the Hulk are real too?!?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Paul didn't exist either!!?? You are a fool. What authority on the New Testament and Christian origins would say such a thing? You have YET to name one Phd level or Masters degree level scholar/historian working the problem of Christian origins that rejects a historical Jesus not to mention Paul. If Paul didn't exist, then WHO wrote his seven genuine letters the most ardent skeptics I have in my library accept from him? WHO? I've never seen so much crazy bullshit.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him. There is no archeological evidence of his existence. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life or death or any other kind of first-hand record. All the accounts of Jesus come from decades or centuries later. Paul was not a companion of Jesus, never met or saw him and wrote 30-40 years after Jesus 'death'.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Paul wrote 20 years after Jesus' death and met three men, one of whom was Jesus' brother in the flesh(they had the same mother) who knew Jesus in Jerusalem according to Galatians circa 50 CE. It is possible Peter wrote one of more of his NT letters. Scholars are divided about that. But they contain interpolations in places. There is no archeological evidence of Josephus and before 1961 of Pilate. Can you give me a contemporaneous account of Pilate's life?
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1 'Paul wrote 20 years after Jesus' death and met three men, one of whom was Jesus' brother in the flesh(they had the same mother) who knew Jesus in Jerusalem'
OK, fine - -WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THIS? It obviously is NOT in the BIble if it goes into THAT much detail, SO WHERE IS IT?!?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@boblackey1
So... Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable There ARE people who claim that Jesus has appeared to them. The late Oral Roberts made that claim several times. Once he saw Jesus in his back yard and he was 9 feel tall. Hyram Maccoby, Bart Erhman, John Dominic Crosson, James Edwards, James Tabor, Robert Miller, Burton L. Mack and dozens of other scholars hold that Jesus existed but reject his divinity and resurrection as myth. To them the Jesus of the gospels didn't exist but was based a Jew who was a teacher.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'there ARE people who claim that Jesus has appeared to them. The late Oral Roberts made that claim several times. Once he saw Jesus in his back yard and he was 9 feel tall. '
I just saw Bigfoot in my back yard and he was 12 feet tall. Send me a donation of $50 so I can go catch him.
So there's your lesson, asshole -- believe everything that any motherfucker tells you, because WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER LIE?!?! Gosh, MONEY perhaps??
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You don't understand. I don't believe Oral Roberts. To me either he was lying or was nuts. Billy Graham admitted to Larry King that he has never heard or saw God but does feel a leading in his heart. That sounds more like an honest man to me. What we are fussing about is not Jesus' divinity or the gospel claims for him but did he exist as a human being. I don't know who you are reading, but certainly it is not any of the skeptical scholars I have in my library.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
NO, I'm talking about Jesus ACTUALLY VISIBLY APPEARING TO MULTIPLE PEOPLE as he did in the Bible after his 'death'. Also, God was constantly appearing PHYSICALLY to his followers in the Bible, so they had no trouble believing he was real.
Neither of them has been seen or heard from SINCE -- are they NOW DEAD??
I'm not talking about people who get a warm fuzzy feeling that lets them 'know' Jesus is real, I'm talking about genuine SIGHTINGS AND ACTIONS.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable The skeptical scholars I have in my library (Ehrman, Mack, Tabor, Edwards, Crosson, Miller etc) reject that Jesus appeared to anybody after his death. Jesus taught the sermon on the mount and the kingdom of God is at hand and within you and that historical layer from the real Jesus did make it into the gospels. Jesus' original followers including Peter, John and his brother James did not expert Jesus to get crucified. That would prove to a Jew he was false.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable So that had to scramble and scatter and the gospels admit that. Tacitus reports that after Jesus was executed that Christianity, an evil superstition, disappeared but broke out again and spread to Rome. Most skeptical scholars hold this happened due to the ministry of Paul who admitted he fought with the Jerusalem followers of Jesus and skeptics think he borrowed from pagan mystery religions for his doctrine after he had his vision on the road to Damascus.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Skeptical scholars generally think Paul was struck by lightening and had a wild dream or had mental problems. But he became the lion for the NEW Jesus movement as he even challenged those still alive who heard and knew Jesus in Jerusalem. They also hold that the original Jesus movement as much different from what we have today as Christianity. Jesus was executed about 29 CE and Ehrman says the myths began after that much like the John Henry story or Washington.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable The skeptical scholars I have in my library DON'T believe the Christ Jesus of the gospels existed. But they DO believe Jesus existed as a human being, was a early first century Jewish teacher who had a following that thought him to be the Messiah. When he got executed, the movement all but disappeared and Paul gets involved and developed much of what he have today except the virgin birth. Paul didn't know about that even though he met three men who followed Jesus.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable I suggest you Google "Hyram Maccoby on Paul" and read this Jewish expert on the New Testament. Dr. Maccoby holds that it is likely Paul lied about being a Jew and that what he brought to the Jesus movement seems to have been borrowed from pagan mystery religions. Also read Maccoby's take on who the actual Jesus was and how he figures the original Jesus movement was much different from todays Christianity thanks to Paul and the later gospel writers etc.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable It is true the gospels most likely were not written by persons who knew Jesus in the flesh. Read Dr. Loisey's treatment on how the gospel of John most likely came to be with a core historical foundation which never presents Jesus as virgin born or anything other than a teacher and one of many who thought he was the Messiah but never claimed any power or divinity. Then myths, legends, interpolations and re-writes are lying on top of the core for what we have today.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
One of the main things you ignore is Josephus was NOT A CONTEMPORARY OF JESUS!!
He was born in the year 37 CE, several years after Jesus' alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from is own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and whatever crap they said about their mythical founder. Even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.
You lose on every level, fucko.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Another strawman argument!! What does that prove? At best Josephus recorded as did Tacitus that Jesus Christ (Christ means Messiah or anointed one, not last name) was the center of a Jewish cult that promoted him as the Jewish Messiah and that this Jesus was executed by Pilate. Josephus, like Tacitus and all historian, used sources when writing. Who in the hell wrote about Josephus or Tacitus or Pilate and most every other person who lived then while they lived?
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1 'Who in the hell wrote about Josephus or Pilate and most every other person who lived then while they lived?'
Oh, only people like Philo Judaeus, Roman record-keepers and other historians you stupid cunt. They were all genuine figures, unlike your stupid Jesus myth.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Philo Judaeus born 20 BC and died 50 AD; the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time, he lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus 'the Christ.' Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Would you think that a historian living in the mid 20th century writing about America would mention Oral Roberts or Benny Hinn or even Billy Graham? Also Josephus does mention Philo but the mention is very brief and takes up just a few lines. Philo must not have been that important to Josephus and his take on first century Israel.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
BULLSHIT, Josephus wrote a thousand words about Philo, you cock.
'It's very interesting that there is one other account which, if it is authentic, does deal with the crucifixion. And that is by the Jewish historian Josephus. The question is whether Josephus really wrote it. And I've written about that, and I've come to the conclusion that he couldn't have written it' Louis Feldman
Ready to apologize for lying yet?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Josephus wrote a thousand words about Philo you say? Go to Google or Wiki and take a look. Read how Philo is mentioned in Josephus. It is so brief that they quote the entire thing which takes up ONE paragraph. Josephus barely mentions Philo. And those are the facts. Stop with the over statements which are really lies.
boblackey1 1 month ago
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@boblackey1 'Philo is so brief takes up ONE paragraph.'
Sure, one paragraph of a 1000 WORDS, dirtbag.
'the skeptical Jesus seminar holds'
The Jesus Seminar was apologetic CRAP based on the false premise that there WAS a real Jesus, and it's in the VESTED INTEREST of those people to say there's a historical Jesus. Otherwise they would have to admit the entire enterprise if futile.
The seminar treats the gospels as historical artifacts -- what does THAT tell you, LIAR?
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable Name someone from the first century who was written about during their life time. Provide a first century copy of any work that describes the activities of a person while they were alive!! Until 1961 nothing existed about Pilate and even today we don't know when he died or is buried and the Pilate stone may have been carved AFTER he died. Josephus' life is not clear. When DID he die and where is he buried? Any exact records of that? NO!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 'Josephus' life is not clear. When DID he die and where is he buried? Any exact records of that? NO!!'
We KNOW that Josephus existed BECAUSE HE WROTE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS and other works, you silly bastard. He was also mentioned by scribes including HIS CONTEMPORARY PHILO JUDAEUS
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@DocReasonable WHO are the experts on Josephus who hold that the entire TF is a forgery, written by Eusebius and inserted in the 4th century. WHO are these experts and how do they KNOW this to be true and at odds of the work of other experts such as Alice Whealey, Phd or Dr. Goldberg at wwwdotjosephusdotorg ? FYI I do NOT think the Shroud is genuine and I'm rather agnostic about religion. Only interested in investigating the religion in which I was raised in view of experts.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable If you just went to wikipediadotorg and typed in Josephus on Jesus, just that alone would overturn your mistaken and ignorant position. Just that alone clearly states that the vast majority of Josephus experts and scholars hold that the TF was written by Josephus except it contains a slight "gloss" or "interpolation". They hold it is part interpolation but mostly from Josephus himself. Also I know of NO surviving copies of Josephus that date to the 5th century.10th!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1
Wiki CONFIRMS that the Josephus paragraphs were later interpolations you dumb hysterical fuck.
Encyclopaedia Britannica notes the following: 'That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe.' Bishop Warburton denounced it as 'a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too.
Give it up, you VERY STUPID loser.
DocReasonable 1 month ago
@boblackey1 You're either obtuse or gullible- take your pick.
"Jesus" is a fictional character. The bible is a book of fairy tales, most of which is plagiarised from other, much earlier religions.
If you really want to know the truth, read about the Egyptian god Horus. That's where your christ-myth came from. It's got the virgin birth, the death and resurrection, the whole shootin' match. Plus it's from 2500 BC, and is one of several such myths.
gsmonks 1 month ago
@gsmonks Your view is absolute trash. There are NO scholars who agree with that view working in the field. I invite you to name ONE Phd level scholar and expert on Christian origins & New Testament origins who teaches at a university such as Harvard or Cambridge or any state university such as the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill which Bart Ehrman, Phd is professor who holds such a view. Your view comes from hacks and amatures who have no standing in the field.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@DocReasonable You are making statement with nothing to back it up but hot air. ALL of the credible New Testament scholars/ experts on Christian origins hold that Jesus existed, said at least 13 percent of his quotes in the gospels, was executed by Ponitus Pilate & headed a Jewish cult which held he was the Messiah but ONE (Price). That he had a brother named James & several followers who were named John & Peter. That Paul met these men. Now it's likely the virgin brith wasn't discussed then!!
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1 That is balogna. There is zero evidence jesus actually existed. If you can produce one shred of evidence, you'll be the very first to do so.
gsmonks 1 month ago
@gsmonks "there is zero evidence jesus actually existed". That is complete bullshit. Where did you read that? Did you get that from this amature video? For starters, try the website wwwdotjosephusdotorg and click on the links for josephus on jesus.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Josephus never mentioned jesus. His writings were doctored by christian "scholars", but all of those examples are well-known forgeries.
As I said, there is zero evidence that jesus existed. Zero, zilch, nada.
You evidently have a problem with that. Well, that's YOUR problem, not mine.
gsmonks 1 month ago
@gsmonks "Josephus never mentioned jesus". Well that is a damn lie and I challenge you to back up such a claim! Who are the Phd level scholars and historians who make such a claim. Certainly not Louis Feldman, Phd or Alice Whealey, Phd who are two of the most noted experts on Josephus in the world!! Indeed Feldman says what we have from Josephus contains most of what he wrote about Jesus and Whealey's work proves Josephus mentioned Jesus. Also wwwdotjosephusdotorg is excellent support.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@lilladione ITS CALLED ORAL HISTROY....AND I WONT ARGUE WITH YOU WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH
lilladione 2 months ago
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y0o0or WHAT RUBBISH JESUS IS ALIVE!!!!CANT WAIT TILL HE GETS Y0O0OU!!!!
lilladione 2 months ago
Jesus never existed and there is no god let's celebrate!!!
MrPurpose79 3 months ago
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What a load of crap.
54tumelo56 4 months ago
Virtually all historians agree on the fact that "Noah", "Moses", "Adam & Eve", "Abraham", "David" and so on never existed, but very many seem to accept that "Jesus" existed even though there is virtually no evidence supporting that he did.. It's weird!: )
winterstellar 4 months ago
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god isnt real faggots
xXSgtWolfXx 5 months ago
1 minute 6 seconds in there you see "The Crucified Orpheus Bacchus". This is a forgery from around 5 - 6 centuries after Christ. Like all of the so-called parallels in this video, they are all fakes. I study historical evidence from ancient times so everything that tried to make wild claims must have real historical evidence from the time and not stuff from much later sources.
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo I think then you can agree that there isn't enough evidence to support Jesus' existence?
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch No rational being can deny the existance of Jesus Christ in Judea early first century. He is the most historically attested person at that time. The historical evidence is irrefutable.
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo Give it a bit more research, because I hate to tell you that you're wrong.
Also yeah, it would technically make it the oldest religion out there. If the story with adam were true that is.
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch I've probably done more research than you. How do you know Adam did not exist?
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo It is a story in a book. There's nothing more to it.
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch It is historical narrative. You are unable to repute that Adam did not exist. However, due to our increase in knowledge in how genetics works it is clear that mans genes are not as robust to withstand diseases etc. Our genetic material is becoming more and more specialised and not as adaptable as it once was. It points to a genetically perfect 1st man. Call him Adam if you will.
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo Hm Well no it is not. Actually many adams existed throughout human history. but that one adam in the bible? We can dismiss that, it's a fictional story, nothing more. There's no reason to see it as anymore than this.
What are you even talking about, a first perfect man? Really? Next thing you tell me evolution is nonsense.
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch Adam did exist as Christ himself stated and I cannot dismiss this as it was said by the one person who cannot lie.
Ancient Greeks called evolution "The Great Chain Of Being", it isn't a new "scientific" discovery but a rehash of ancient pagan beliefs.
If you believe the myth that we evolved from something as basic as a single cell organism then you have to rational way to say that Creation is a fictional story. It is called revelation
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo Ok, where to even begin...
Ok, so, Jesus cannot lie. 1. Where does he say that about adam? 2. Jesus' existence is still not proven, so you'd have to do that first. 3. IF he existed, which I wouldn't have a problem with by the way, what is this nonsense about him not being able to lie? Any evidence for that?
Well as for evolution, I guess I just have to conclude that you're uneducated about it. It is a scientific theory, if you know what that means. Based on observation and evidence.
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch All professional historians believe that Jesus existed, they know this by looking at the evidence.
Take a look at his video by a sceptic watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs
Jesus said that he was God and because God cannot lie it is simple to conlude he cannot lie. Here is one of many proof texts of his words.
John 14:6
"I am the way, the truth and the life"
You need observation before you can have a theory otherwise you will use evidence to support a theory.
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo Well, no they don't, or can you show me where it says that they do?
Oh ok so if I said I was god, and since a god cannot lie(I don't see why, but we'll go with it for the sake of argument) that would make me a person that cannot lie, therefor it would be true that I'm god?
Have you ever heard of circular logic? That's what you're doing here.
And the bible, again, proves nothing. You can't prove the bible by using the bible, don't you get that?
Educate yourself about science please.
hanspeterpitsch 5 months ago
@hanspeterpitsch If you truly were God I would ask for evidence. What kind of evidence you may rightly ask. I would look for evidence that there was something special about you that other people do not posses such as knowledge, expressions of power and fulfilment of ancient prophecy. Which Christ did.
I do not says that I am using the Bible to prove the Bible. The Bible can be shown to be consistant with other historical evidence not to mention it shows what man is more than any other book.
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo - Are you mad? The Romans destroyed Jerusalem, defeated the Jews and created Christianity. The gospels came first. They are a satire on the Roman-Jewish war, with Vespasian (the father) and Titus (the good son) being reflected through Jesus/God. Bingo.
This means that Jesus was NOT real and was actually a fictional Messiah character in a book. All your evidence will point to the Flavians because that is the source of Christianity.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable I base my comments based on all on the earliest evidence.
It is you that is made making the assertion that the Romans invented Christianity. I never laughed so hard when I read your reply. Still makes me chuckle.
Where to begin. The Roman authories were persecuting the Christians for the 1st 300 years. Christianians were killed in from from as early as 55 AD. We have hostile pagan sources mentioning how much they were persecuted.
Surfxeo 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Nero, Emperor 54 - 68 AD, is famously quoted as making a new law "Christians to the lions".
We have Josephus and many others to confirm the truth that the Gospels are historically accurate.
Obviously with the destruction of Jerusalem the Gospels had to be written in Isreal before 70 AD because otherwise we wouldn't be able to know what happened in Judeah in the time of Christ.
Christianity is based on Judaism and nothing else. Hense we have 66 books and not 27 in our Bible.
Surfxeo 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Jesus is the most well attested perons from antiquity. There is no one else from this time period that is so well documented. If you don't believe that He existed then your assertion is a faith statement based on nothing but hot air. All professional historians who specialise in this field agree with me.
Surfxeo 3 months ago
@Surfxeo - Persecutions -
“Christian” simply means a follower of a Christ – a leader claiming to have been foreseen by the Jews’ messianic prophecies. The word Kristos is Greek for the Hebrew word Messiah. So while the Romans did indeed persecute “Christians” in the way that history recorded, these were not “Jesus Christians” but Jewish zealots.
After all, it was the Jews who where engaged in conflicts with the Romans for well over 100 years. They where seen as terrorists by the Romans/Nero.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Actually Kristos (Xpistos) is more properly pronounced with a Ch as in the Scottish Gaelic for Lo'ch', rather than a 'K'. Messiah and Christ are the same word.
The Romans did not regard the Jews as terrorists. They only saw them like every other society they conquered. By the time of Christs ministry it was reasonably quite because a few decades before Julius Caesar had knocked out any Jewish resistence.
We know who and what Martyred Christians said and did in Rome.
Surfxeo 3 months ago
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@Surfxeo - cont'd
"The Romans did not regard the Jews as terrorists"
So the Romans didn't view the Zealots as terrorists? And I thought that scholars saw them as one of the first examples of the use of terrorism.
"By the time of Christs ministry it was reasonably quite because a few decades before Julius Caesar had knocked out any Jewish resistence"
Of course it was quiet. That is why we got a massive war and the destruction of Jerusalem. REMEMBER who wrote these histories.
Franknarfable 3 months ago