I'm not done, I have 17 members of my family (that i know of) who live in Cuba. They tell me that there are 2 social classes the rich, and the dirt poor. NO MIDDLE CLASS!!!!! Same thing is happening to Hugo Chavez's country, a once thriving middle class of about 60-65% is now in the low 20's%.
Hey i have an idea lets destroy the middle class in America and become socialists HAHAHAHA FUCKING LEFTIST LOSERS GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!
My Grandmother in Cuba Couldnt get the operation she needed to remove bloodclots in her legs. she lived the last few years of her life Without legs. IF she lived in America the Emergency room woulda gave her the operation and billed her (even if she couldnt pay). Micheal Moore is a BIG FAT LIAR and the peeps who defend him are Spoiled American/Canadian Socialist/commies who need to live in a 3rd world country to get educated on the truth. FUCK THE LEFT!!!!
Cuba is desperately poor and at least they make the attempt to give medicine to all..The US is immensely wealthy and they have cold-blooded cutthroats who simply tell you to die in the street -- often when you actually have health insurance.
@tallcoolone1 I guess you forgot the federal law requiring emergency rooms to care for all patients, even illegal aliens before talking payment/insurance.
Cuban health system is free, and there are some good doctors... but hospitals there are like hell on the earht, and there's a total lack of the most basic drugs, in other words, he is lying. Plus aliens are charged juicy fees for treatment, it is not free.
Health care is self-explanatory. It is to provide people with services so they can live and prosper. That's what everyone needs. When you make it for profit, you are suddenly saying that you don't care about the patient but about the money. If HMOs REALLY cared, they would be non-profit organizations, dedicated to "finding cures and advancements in technology" in order to help the people.
We pay for $5 aspirin and 3X more than any country on the face of the planet for HMO's and waiting lines. Corpo-Ho? That's about the nicest thing you could have said about his mother. Talk to the people at your hospitals! I did! One said that she that she feels like an executioner! She said that everyday she condemns someone to die! Disagree? get out of your SUV like I did and talk to what used to be the middle class America. Drs. are middle class.INSURANCEisFAKE Lack of insurance=death
This is the most retarded show I have ever seen... I hear a lot of questions but it sounds too damn much like the Reds trying to invade the States. Didn't you people get over that already, the whole world did...
actually everybody does have access to health care in america. Its a law in the USA that a hosital CANNOT REFUSE LIFE SAVING TREATMENT BASED ON INCOME! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wrong sir, you may be in a bubble in some suburb but this is in fact NOT FACT
NOT every hospital is required to accept an emergency patient irregardless of their ability to pay. There are hundreds of for profit hospitals that will transport an emergency patient to a community or non-profit hospital for care.
Also, it you walked into a hospital and told them you have cancer (a non-emergency) and no insurance and are poor...do you think they would take care of you?
The hospital would admit you when the cancer was at the point of actually killing you. Then they would keep you in ICU for weeks until you died and then they would bill the system hundreds of thousands of dollars for fucking "charity" care.
The current system is so perverse it could have been designed by Satan himself.
This documentary is so one sided, 2020 should not air something like this unless is it willing to do it "UNBIASED" they are so obviously for "for profit" health care so they make Canada look like its on the same level as a 3rd world country! Thats not true. No, its not perfect, wait times are still too long but its getting better. I beleive the system is good and needs improvement. No health care system is perfect anywhere! Canada is a leading researcher in medicine!
so what if 20/20 does a biased review on a baised propaganda clip filmed by Michael Moore. Michael Moore was caught in several straight up lies that he refused to answer too, he then directs attention elsewhere. the debate wasn't about health care it was about Michael Moore's creditiblity, which is zero. Michael Moore lied and then asks us to prove him wrong on everything... no, thats not how it works.
Canada is number 30 on the rankings of healthcare systems worldwide. Britain is number 18. During the 20/20 special they talked about how horrible it was in these countries. The system is "cracking"!
The United States is number 37, and Cuba is a close 39. The rankings were taken back in 2000, but it is very clear that Canada or at the very least Britain is doing something much better than we are. Even if he stretched the truth the WHO placed the U.S. only 2 rankings above the impoverished Cuba.
statistics can say whatever you want them to. The problem with this study is that it bases this off of life expectency. which in the us is artifically altered by high homicide rates and artifically altered in cuba by straight up lying, they claim the average cuban lives as loing as an american, that just a fucking lie they die 20 - 30 years before an american does.
If you get a disease or cancer yu want to be in the USA to get the best treatment in the world.
"WHOs assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health systems financial burden within the population (who pays the costs)"
Nothing changes the fact that america has the absolute most advanced medical industry in the world. We have treatments only availible here and we invented a large ammount of the cures and medical devices used...
apparently we are doing something right.
better to have good service than cheap service. Our doctors are better and thus more expensive, you want cheap and slow drive to mexico or canada. I always hear about canada's advanced medicine, lol.
I never said we didn't have advanced medicine, my beef is that not everyone has access to it. In 20/20 they talk about how hard it is to get this scan in Canada, when there are plenty of people in America that can't get the same thing because they can't afford it.
As for Mexico I've heard it's pretty bad, and I am very glad we are much better off than other countries. I just think America shouldn't settle, we should have the #1 spot on the chart--we should continue to strive for it until we do.
actually everybody does have access to health care in america. Its a law in the USA that a hosital CANNOT REFUSE LIFE SAVING TREATMENT BASED ON INCOME!
Do they have a right to bill you for that life saving treatment afterwards, YES OF COURSE THEY DO!
If you get cured from cancer you should have to pay for it. Yes of course. If you cannot afford it bankrouptcy and other eascape routes exist to prevent you from losing your home and cars
Americans get access for emergency situations. If you think they get to see a doctor anytime they are sick you are wrong. People will go the ER when they have a fever or a bladder infection, because this is the only way they can get treated.
You are missing the POINT of having health care for everyone. Health care isn't about treating the dying, it is about preventing diseases and other things before they become life-threatening.
ex. cuba population about 11.5 million number of hospitals about 66 = 1 hospital for every 175,000 people.
america about 7,000 hospitals not counting the over 50,000 private practices comes out to a hospital per every 40,000 factor in private practices and we are looking at a clinic per about 5,000 americans
not sure about you but I have seen the hospitals in cuba. I prefer to have AC, antibotics, doctors, medicine, mris.
speaking of which cuba owns 2 mris we have thousands of them
The survey did take into account how they handle healthcare with the resources provided. I am NOT advocating going off to Cuba because it is so great there. I'm just saying if the F*ing Cubans can get a ranking close to ours it should say something.
I may be a bleeding heart, but I just believe it is our duty as Americans to provide health care to all of our citizens. If we did that, and we did it the right way, we would have the #1 spot on that WHO list.
yeah my point wasn't that we couldn't improve it was that that "WHO list" is bullshit. Any list that put cubas care anywhere near americas is just a flat out lie. that was the point of the REAL STATS listed below.
saying a country is better based on unknown variables has no meaning. They don't list the facts to support their insane claims. we have a doctors office or hospital for every 5,000 americans they have one for every 175,000 cubans and theirs suck on top of that.
It is not based off of unknown variables. I posted the five things they used as criteria for the ranking system. You can look it up through the WHO if you want to learn more.
We are paying MORE money to NOT have health care for all Americans. If we payed for doctor's visits we would have less people rushed into the ER at the last minute who need expensive procedures to keep them alive.
Again, we could have THE BEST system if only everyone could benefit from it.
Thats true, but if you are so broke you can't afford a doctor visit then you already can get government health care. If you are just too damn cheap to spend $50-$300 on a doctor visit then you get what you get. Not to mention the fact that even if you can't afford the $50 there are free clinics in every state of this country michigan has around 30 of them. We have hundreds of free clinics in this country and it does cost the tax payer anything.
You just totally don't get what it's like. Who said anything about driving? If you own more than $3000 worth of property you don't qualify for state Medicaid. which means you take the bus. What's that? You work full time? Well I suppose you work for an understanding boss...
You have to make next to nothing to qualify for Medicaid. The only exceptions they make for income limit is usually for pregnant women. Also, in California many of the Medicaid benefits are only available to people until 21.
Free clinics are wonderful, but you tell me about wait times at free clinics are great compared to even Canada. Yes, people often wait to go to the doctor until they don't feel great. Do you know how often cancer is found when someone goes in for just a headache that has been bothering them?
The problem is, if you don't have insurance you will put it off longer than any insured person would. They out it off going in to the doctor because it IS too expensive. People are often scared to get sick.
Man, you like hip hop groups that are anarchists like Mos Def, you need to distinguish rap groups that are anarchists from the ones that rely on government assistance. Really be consistent on supporting ideas and people that support your cause.
Canada and Britain have higher rankings because they offer socialized medicine. It is not based the actual quality of service the actual availability of service to the middle class or the poor. Even the claim that Canada is more equal is not based on the equality of the service provided.
Why has CommodoreV's comment been given two thumbs down? It seems a pretty good comment to me. Adam smith is pretty much the founder of free market thought, 'The Wealth of Nations' was published in 1776... about 500 years later than Michael Moore's comment suggests. Michael Moore is clearly a complete fool - as one look at his gormless fat face attests.
I'm guessing people would prefer to be denied by insurance companies than to wait a little longer and get help from socialized medicine.
There shouldn't be such as thing as "health insurance", but rather, health coverage. It's two different concepts. Health insurance would be like car insurance. However, I dont see auto insurance companies telling people they are not covered because they already knew they were going to crash, or that the crashed on purpose. Sounds ridiculous, right?
While the economy does suck, it doesn't mean that we can't. I know it is a different world from 60 years ago, but Britain formed their socialized medicine when the country was in ruins after World War II.
Like I said, totally different times, and I hope their is a way it can work. I'm not a financial expert so I have to trust what they come up with.
Auto insurance companies do try to claim you as "at fault" for an accident or place equal fault on both of you, all so they don't have to pay out for your car repairs. Seems when things are profit-driven they will do not-so-nice things to save a little money.
Socialised medicine is great when it isn't being consistently undermined by farming out aspects of hospital management (ie cleaning and hygeine) to private sector companies looking to maximise profits. This is one reason for the 'decline' of the NHS in the UK. It's easy to say a system isn't working when there are people doing everything within their power to hobble it.
Good one Stossel: "the private sector does everything better". The US gov gave free riegn to the mortgage and banking industry. They started a global economic crisis.
You should look up the community reinvestment act, the fixing of interest rates by the FED, Fannie and Freddie and how they were created and directed by government and what affect they had on the housing market. Once you've looked up all that, and that's just to name some of the most direct gov. infulences not them all, once you looked up all see if you still think the same.
I looked it up, as I did the last time I had this debate. Fannie Mae was privatized in 1968.
PS - I worked for a mortgage co. from 2002-07. I know all about the Fed/rates.
I'm not saying we should nationalize everything....We just need an accountable government to regulate the private sector because they're filled with selfish greedy lowlifes.
Yes it was privitised, but it still had links to government, it had implicit backing which allowed it to borrow money at a lower interest rate. The President still appointed members to its board and it was exempt from local and state taxes. It had many perks which allowed it to grow. The typical socialist mindset is that anything privately owned is a free market. That's ignorant, that is just 1 of several conditions for a free market. A car with only one wheel isn't a car.
What a free market is is when market forces, and them alone, set prices and determine what products and services exist in an economy and in what proportions. Private ownership is but one precondition of achieving that. Feudalism had lots of private ownership but was uttlery anti-market, you probably can't tell the difference because to you the "free market" just means private sector.
Only sheep believe the michael moore crap! I wish that the people who say they want socialized medicine would move to the countries tha institute this system. Then they can give us the skinny on this
This is to show that Michael Moore doesnt really care about wether his Data is valid or true. As long as it proves his point He happy. And as long as the general mass believes what he says then he happy.
So i say STOP BELIEVING WHAT MICHAEL MOORES SAYS, He tell lies to make fame and profit.
When taking Cuba as an exampel, Michal Moore whent to far. Cuba is not better then the usa in any way, that fine care that the 9/11 heroes got was elit care. Castro used Moore for propaganda.
I'm not saying USA should not have social health care (I like the idea), I'm just saying that Cuba is a bad example. I'm agreeing with Abaaa00000. If Satan began using social health care in hell, Michal Moore would go there and make Hell look great for the cameras.
yeah a socialist system is so much better...because it has always worked in the past
lets get real...socialist agendas take away "profit motive" which in turn makes people rely on the system for handouts
look at Europe and then tell me that this is a better system
France is going to be bankrupt in a few years and they are also in a state of stagflation it is all because of this "universal" healthcare system and a 35 hour work week..thats another topic for another day
"France is going to be bankrupt in a few years and they are also in a state of stagflation it is all because of this 'universal' healthcare system and a 35 hour work week..thats another topic for another day"
Do you have proof of this or are you blowing words out your ass?
Healthcare should be given not sold. I know your fine with 55million people uninsured and the 125million who think they are covered but aren't becaus you can afford it.
PS: Not for profit healthcare works fine in Canada.
Not really. Universal healthcare u cannot pay to get ahead of someone else. It goes by how severe your problem is. If your dirt poor and you're coughing up blood, ur first. If your rich and you have an ear infection then your last. Hell, if u have an ear infection ppl should go to their family doctors.
My morals tell me that it's better that everyone has healthcare and some ppl have to wait, rather than 445 million ppl who dont have it. And the 125 million who THINK they are covered but ARENT.
Wrong.. Wealthy people dont go to public hospital. They go to illegal private hospitals.
Yeah in Canada family doctors is a luxury do you realise in Canada. People gets a family doctor via a lottery basis.. Do i want to subject my life to a game of luck..
Yeah its true universal healthcare everyone is covered.. but will it be there for you when times are needed??
Lets say Iam in Canada.. I have a heart attack.. Which doctor say i need a heart sugery soon but unfortunately I have to wait for 2 weeks for a heart surgeon to be available.
So.. i risk another heart attack that could kill me as the system finds me a slot to save me.. Yeah its free and avaliable but if iam dead before it can come what the point..
Because you are adding 50 million people to the line! Of course waits for non emergency procedures will increase!
A recent Macleans Magazine study has shown that Canadians are richer, and work less than Americans do. We owe less money and spend less. We relax more and have way more sex.
Our economy is doing fine.
If you can afford to pay taxes for the war why can't you pay taxes for healthcare?
1. that is not a measurable variable 2 and 3 are joint our insurance companies are a problem, thats what needs to be fixed but free healthcare is not the answer 4. doctors are scientists who find cures tell me one reason why i should spend taxes for other peoples healthcare in essence taxes are legalized theft it is coercion by the government taxes should be for military roads judicial system etc. theres is a few more
Not true, Canadians earn more, however our cost of living is far greater than your cost of living. We do have socialized health care, however wait times are absurdly long, I've had to wait 9 hours for treatment of a head injury, while I was waiting another guy waited 8 before I walked in after coming out of a near fatal car accident, and he was there after I left. I don't know about you, but that's a little crazy.
That the point.. He wants to show the american capitalism healtcare system suxxor and Cuba socialism health care system is good.. WHICH IT NOT.. HE LIED in his documentary..
Are all you right wing twats enrolled at the same school for the mentally challenged?
I SAID SYSTEM. HE SHOWS THE SYSTEM. It's true he doesn't show the worse side of the healthcare SERVICE, but he does show what IS avaliable for people to use.
CUBAN SYSTEM = Not for profit, Service = Mediocre to not good
USA SYSTEM = All about profit, and making money. Service = good to excellent (one step above very good).
Canada SYSTEM = Not for profit. Service = good to very good.
Yeah and whats is available is only for the rich and privilege. Anyone can get good healthcare as long as the dough come in. Doesnt matther where u are.
I live in Malaysia where its as a commonwealth country we have universal like UK which is just like canada. Yeah going to a goverment hospital is near free but god the hospital are shabby and queue are long. Also doctors dont really have time for you with the numbers of patients stacking. Go try the system our yourself then you see what i mean.
The CIAs credibilaty isn't really all that great in my opinion since Iraq...
I love that they only discuss Cuba. Why do they avoid the subject of countries that are around the USA level of development with socialized medicine, like say Sweden?
I do see the problem, I don't agree with the fix. The fix is contrary to how this country works. Everyone looks to Europe for answers, but this country is premised on NOT looking to Europe. Hell, we fought a revolution to improve on Europe's failures.
"Hell, we fought a revolution to improve on Europe's failures."
True but they are a lot freer than we are in a lot of areas now. They have more basic human rights while fascism is creeping it's way into the US. Maybe it's about time we did look back.
The clue is that they would never give up their social systems (they're not perfect I know) but we're just begging to have our system changed.
I just wish anytime a new law, policy, bill, amendment was considered by congress, the long-lasting consequences would be taken into consideration rather than just posed to get votes for either party. They only look out for their term in office, not our "term" as taxpayers.
Different subject? This IS the subject: Every Democrat is running their campaigns on UHC worded to generate votes. They have not reconciled the economic consequences. To listen to those politicians you would think they were going to legislate utopia. Votes first.
People look at life expectancy statistics as the primary measure of our health-care system compares to other industrialized countries. But they forget that we have a higher rate of car accidents, suicide, and homicide than most of these countries. You have to factor those in too. I guess for some of these people, ideology is more important than facts.
johnh926: You might want to utilize a calculator and a dictionary next time you post. Site = cite and 2700-2800 or so people died on 9/11, so 13,000 is not quite 10 9/11's is it? To be sure, Mr. Moore's works are agitprop at it's finest, but that does not mean he's never right. America's healthcare system is rotten for all but the upper echelon of society. Moore may not have all the answers but at least he's drawing attention to a great need.
my bad, whoops on the math. I bought a calculator based on your outstanding powers of perception. Attention SHOULD be drawn to the problem, but lets be realistic about the solution: there are fixes available that do not result in ANOTHER bureaucracy and higher taxes. To assume there is only ONE solution (UHC) is a naive & dangerous power grab for control over your life. Private sector solutions are what this country was built upon and has worked every time they have been tried.
watch?v=cIQ7UxfrOQ4 Part one of a series. Lots of juicy lies and deceptions moore made, pointed out. and "Michael Moore Hates America" is another good one.
Food for thought. If so many people need healthcare, why doesn't Moore donate all his excess money to people who need it? And I mean ALL of it, talkin moore should have no more than 100k to his name.
Oh and John Stossel Doesn't Have an Agenda of his own Riiiight?
Here, do yourselves a favor and have a look at what Stoss already thought about health care earlier this year..Pre-Sicko.
watch?v=F93RHTpD0qo
Then come tell me he (Stossel) doesn't have his own agenda for health care. He's trying to sell more books fools. You people are so easily mislead by Corporations.
Wake up and stop watching the big 3 networks for "News". They're owned, and so are you.
Of course he has an agenda. Everyone has an agenda. His happens to be that there is a better way to deal with the health care system by opening it up to free markets and make them compete for customers- like the other 2/3rds of our economy which works.
You are agenda free? You have no passion for which you would like to see change? Media is ALWAYS put through the filter of who's reporting. Smart consumers view all sides and make their own decisions--anything else is intellectually lazy.
Can you make a case as to why free market competition is not right for Health Care when every other time it's been applied, costs have come down, innovation has increased, productivity has grown,supply has been met, demand has been met, access has been expanded, and the economy has thrived. Where is the down side?
"Can you make a case as to why free market competition is not right for Health Care"
In 500 characters or less..maybe...Ok Cars..Free Market..lots of choices. Lot's of competition and therefore lower prices, but still..Not everyone can afford them or even if they can afford, they go without. Which is exactly my point with Free market health care..People with less money will still go without and what does that solve? It favors people with money to spend, not everyone has money. Cont...
UHC advocates tend to ignore personal responsibility. I have a HSA. I contribute enough in there to cover my yearly deductible, so the money is in that account. I grew up, I don't go out to eat every night, I drive a car I can afford, live in a house I can afford, don't own a HD tv. But my priority is my family, not Monday Night Foot Ball on a 60" TV. Americans need to grow up.
that is great and admirable--no issue at all with that. Do you remain personally responsible for those that have no intention of helping themselves and find it much easier to just suck off the system rather than working as hard as you do?
very small percentage? that percentage is growing, and would explode if UHC passed since another incentive to be productive would evaporate leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab. I'd say that the 6 million people that are eligible to receive medicare benefits but refuse to is a sizable percentage of the "47 million".
Yep you're right..more and more Americans are without health insurance for many different reasons but you'd like to lump them in with the very small percentage of lazy, do-nothings and that's where you're wrong.
I don't want to part with my money either but it's for the greater good, which is fine with me.
...cont...Stossel also advocates HSAs. HSAs are great..IF you work and have money to put into them. There is also the matter of the extremely high deductibles with HSAs...Not everyone can afford them and once again favor the well off and leave the poor and most of the middle class to "go without" since they won't always have petty cash around to throw at it...and that kind of defeats the purpose of reforming the health care system no?
You know, sometimes life requires priorities. There are plenty of people that complain they can't afford health care or HSA which would pay your deductibles but since they prioritized a Plasma TV, Caddy lease, home they actually can't afford, etc..and give their health care on back burner till they need it and want it paid by somebody else. Grow up and take responsibility.
My god, do you really believe the majority of those without insurance are spending their money on plasma TV's? The majority of 47 million people? What is it about those who've lucked into some form of financial security and believe that every American life is identical, and those struggling are simply lazy? You can't be serious.
No, and that's not what I said. I said that there are plenty of people that complain about not being able to afford insurance when they prioritize the "wants" in their lives over the "needs". If you own a boat for recreation, but can't afford health insurance, that's a problem. Also, I didn't "luck" into financial security, I prioritized it.
"..Plasma TV, Caddy lease, home they actually can't afford, etc.."
Not sure what you mean?...I've got none of those things..Not even close..I live in a rented apartment, drive a car from the 80s, go to school and work 6 days a week just to get by but my job doesn't offer health care.
No. yer not lazy, and you missed the whole point. I was merely commenting on those that choose their "wants" over their "needs" and then complain they can't afford coverage when they get hurt water skiing behind their 25 foot boat.
These people too..are a very small percent. Most people with 25 foot boats are not complaining they can't afford things. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but I find it a negligible factor in the bigger equation.
what so many advocates of UHC just do not comprehend are basic principles of economics. Sure the feel-good coverage for all is there, but the ramifications are completely ignored. Laws of economics are irrefutable and when attempts to manipulate them blow up, the unintended consequences increase exponentially until market forces correct themselves. UHC is a manipulation of economic forces that can not succeed long term with out dire consequence.
"running at a loss for the greater good..." is a perfect example of irresponsible economics. Nothing runs at a loss for long. It can't. That loss either spells the demise of the system, or is made up for with MORE taxes. Apply it to evolution: those that are not the fittest (running at a loss) become extinct. It's inevitable and irrefutable.
"..."running at a loss for the greater good..." is a perfect example of irresponsible economics."
You can argue with Noam if you want but it's so other areas of Government and the People can flourish. As in Americans will be more healthy and therefore more productive.
More productivity is a direct result of responsible economics,not running at a loss (it's called a loss for a reason...you lose.) Any entity "running at a loss" ceases to exist without subsidies by the taxpayer. Ceasing to exist is a detriment to productivity, not a boon.
Totally agree that the Current US system is broke. Rather than scrap it and replace it with government run, it can be fixed with free market purchasing power of the consumers. This too eliminates the money hording insurance industry by forcing them to be competitive. They compete, innovate, improve service or consumers go elsewhere. Another other company WILL capitalize on bad business practices of other carriers.
Someone in another thread brought up cellphone providers to use as an example of "free market" working....how?
I pay almost $60 a month for basic cellphone service. I don't consider that "low priced".
Cut that in half and I would start to believe.
...And my basic point is, not everyone can afford to have one. Free market health care will not make it available to all..and they shouldn't be forced into a half-assed poverty program with tons of paperwork.
UHC (actual UHC and not a sorry excuse for it) will Lower costs..not raise them..by streamlining the entire process.
Not only that it takes the greed of the profit driven insurance companies completely out of the equation. Which also saves money (not to mention lives).
Medicare(socialized) runs at about 3% overhead costs, meanwhile our current system runs at over 30% overhead costs.
Name one instance that government "streamlined" anything better than the private sector while driving costs down---not subsidizing it with taxpayer money, but truly driving the costs down consistently.
The fire dept. for example in areas of the country were privatized. Didn't work. Socialized it and made it much better. Today it's not even a second thought on peoples minds.
That said, a national database would be implemented with UHC and would reduce or eliminate the need for paperwork. Reducing costs and thereby "streamlining".
Health care is too important to trust free market entities with. Too many ways to neglect the customer and get away with it.
The fire department is a bad example. Fire departments are locally funded by the municipalities they service. There is no national fire department that is looking after my house. Not to mention, property taxes pay for it, therefore property owners are protected.
You're right, we do disagree at a very basic level. My opinion is that high quality health care is a basic human right for any citizen, while you think it's a privilege.
NO, I don't think it's a privilege for the rich. I also don't think it's a "right". Life is a right- Constitution says so. Health care is a product. It's produced by the labor of people and therefore is for sale, not free. I believe it should be an affordable choice to purchase it.
No, life and health are obviously related. "Life" and "health care" are separate issues. One is a basic right by the Constitution. "Right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness..." Health care is a product produced by the labor of people. Unless one is willing to force people into the Health Care industry, it can not be defined as a "right". It's a product for sale.
I understand your argument about Constitutional rights but there are services the government does that are not explicitly in the Constitution like emergency responders. We pay our taxes and we get firefighters. If we get into a car accident and we need their assistance, the labor comes to our aid. The price for their product is paid by "we the people". So far the Supreme Court has not outlawed any of these agencies, so they must be Constititutional.
that is correct, the government does provide local municipalities the structure to provide fire/police/first responders. These are local entities and paid for by the local community. That is a far cry from a National Health Care System and the complexities therein. Look at it this way: gov't is empowered to protect us from each other, not from ourselves- that involves personal responsibility. Democrats want as many people depending on the government as possible as a perpetual power grab.
Let me guess...You're a libertarian and you're voting for Ron Paul right?
Bro you are so far gone and caught up in capitalism you've lost sight of what it means to be an American.
You go ahead and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Meanwhile, I'll be helping my neighbor and together we'll do it better and faster and with less effort.
I'm caught up in capitalism? Capitalism has been the catalyst for the success of this country. I'm not ashamed of capitalism. Capitalism is the American way and it's worked every time it's been tried. Your socialist views do not mesh with this countries values, like it or not.
No. I would not waste my vote on Ron Paul, he's a bit out there for even me: Mr. Capitalist.
"The withholding of healthcare from any human for any reason is an abomination.
Citing economic reasons using social cost benefit analysis as a factor in allocating health care, is, in my mind, equivalent to treating the human being as a commodity, something to be valued in terms of capital; fascism, pure and simple, and runs contrary to the constitutional guarantee that every American has to pursuit of happiness."
Where is that sourced, I would like to read it. Also, I would argue that the constitutional guarantee is the "pursuit" of happiness, not a constitutional handout to be happy. Meaning each individual has the equal opportunity to do what it takes to achieve their individual definition of "happiness"; NOT that the government is a happiness factory and to distribute utopia to it's citizens on the backs of other citizens. They need to participate in their own happiness.
Also, the "pursuit of happiness" phrase in the constitution is interesting not in what it says, but what it does NOT say. What it is NOT implying and what it is NOT guaranteeing. I guess my point is that Americans have become enamored with the idea that they don't need to have a stake in their own well being anymore if we can get the government/somebody else to just do it for us. That is NOT how America eclipsed the rest of the world in it's relatively short history.
interesting that this comment has been marked as spam...must have hit a nerve with someone. Must be much easier than refuting the message. That's the liberal way: get rid of dissent. Thanks for the proof. Cowards.
The funny thing is that we both want to get people the health care that they need. In that respect, we are on the same page.
The scarry thing is that you are not open to any system other than socialized care which makes me think for you, it's the socialism you part that you want for Americans, not the health care since there are unexplored alternatives that don't require government controls. What is your end game? Socialism or Health Care?
Part of the whole problem with this debate is that the definitions of "life", "Health" and "Health Care" have been blurred all together. There are distinctions when logic is applied. Should the system be fixed? Yes. Health care should be made affordable so citizens can prioritize it and purchase it like any other product that requires the labor of other citizens. Market forces have that power if allowed to do so-unlike now.
Well then this conversation is over. Health care is a right and nothing you can ever say will change my mind on that. Nothing.
Every human on this planet has the right to live and sometimes to continue living, we need help..and that help comes in the form of life saving health care, from Doctors.
Sometimes. That is the key word in your argument. "Sometimes" does not constitute scrapping a fixable system for UHC. What you are in favor of is not "sometimes" its a manatory "always". What if there was a legitimate way to "sometimes" help without Socialized care?. Would you be for that?
People like Stossel here love to bring up the wait times. Well Canada has a shortage on Doctors, which causes the wait times. We in the US on the other hand do not have a shortage of Docs.
There are many factors as to why that is but the fact remains, we have plenty of Docs to implement UHC here with little problem.
"Well Canada has a shortage on Doctors, which causes the wait times."
Canada has a shortage of Doctors because in the 90"s, 10,000 left their practices because it was not financially beneficial. Socialized care directly to blame
Yes greed is an ugly thing. If the U.S. were to go universal it's sad to say that instead of making 500k a year a Doctor might only make a mere 400k a year. It's harsh I know but it's something I think people (including Docs) could deal with.
I think where you and I disagree at a basic level is that I believe the government's roll is to protect us from each other, and you believe the government's roll is to protect us from ourselves.
Yes you do. By enacting "social"ized care, you are protecting citizens from themselves by making decisions for them that they are capable of making for themselves. Aren't you advocating the merits of Socialism?
Not to be rude, but who are you to decide what is enough for someone else. In this country, a non-socialist country, the government has absolutely NO business telling anyone "we've decided you make too much money...it's for the common good. Even liberal politicians vote themselves pay hikes.
Again, NO. I think medicare is crap. It's horribly government managed, underfunded, and a taxpayers money sucking vortex. Universal Care would end up being Medicare on steroids. I'd rather pull everyone up to better care vs. down to "equal", but crappy, Medicare for all.
Did you even watch the video? Moore got sent to a part of the hospital for the elite. The elite and ones with cash get one type, the others get crap. Other countries fudge the numbers for baby deaths and cuba is no doubt lieing about their numbers because they HATE america becasue we are so rich and sucessful. Stossel moped the floor with moore with one weapon. The truth.
"Moore got sent to a part of the hospital for the elite."
Nope haven't seen it but I plan to. So because Stossel says it's true, it must be a fact right?..even though Moore is sitting there telling him no, you're wrong. So automatically Moore is the one lying? Why couldn't Stoss be lying?..or misleading you....any reason you have for that?
Even if it was true, you're missing the entire point of the movie...have you even seen Sicko?...Recommended viewing since you want to discuss it.
I'm not done, I have 17 members of my family (that i know of) who live in Cuba. They tell me that there are 2 social classes the rich, and the dirt poor. NO MIDDLE CLASS!!!!! Same thing is happening to Hugo Chavez's country, a once thriving middle class of about 60-65% is now in the low 20's%.
Hey i have an idea lets destroy the middle class in America and become socialists HAHAHAHA FUCKING LEFTIST LOSERS GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!
Userofname69 7 months ago
My Grandmother in Cuba Couldnt get the operation she needed to remove bloodclots in her legs. she lived the last few years of her life Without legs. IF she lived in America the Emergency room woulda gave her the operation and billed her (even if she couldnt pay). Micheal Moore is a BIG FAT LIAR and the peeps who defend him are Spoiled American/Canadian Socialist/commies who need to live in a 3rd world country to get educated on the truth. FUCK THE LEFT!!!!
Userofname69 7 months ago
Cuba is desperately poor and at least they make the attempt to give medicine to all..The US is immensely wealthy and they have cold-blooded cutthroats who simply tell you to die in the street -- often when you actually have health insurance.
tallcoolone1 2 years ago
@tallcoolone1 I guess you forgot the federal law requiring emergency rooms to care for all patients, even illegal aliens before talking payment/insurance.
netster007z 1 year ago
Cuban health system is free, and there are some good doctors... but hospitals there are like hell on the earht, and there's a total lack of the most basic drugs, in other words, he is lying. Plus aliens are charged juicy fees for treatment, it is not free.
monopita 2 years ago
Health care is self-explanatory. It is to provide people with services so they can live and prosper. That's what everyone needs. When you make it for profit, you are suddenly saying that you don't care about the patient but about the money. If HMOs REALLY cared, they would be non-profit organizations, dedicated to "finding cures and advancements in technology" in order to help the people.
genellestube 2 years ago
We pay for $5 aspirin and 3X more than any country on the face of the planet for HMO's and waiting lines. Corpo-Ho? That's about the nicest thing you could have said about his mother. Talk to the people at your hospitals! I did! One said that she that she feels like an executioner! She said that everyday she condemns someone to die! Disagree? get out of your SUV like I did and talk to what used to be the middle class America. Drs. are middle class.INSURANCEisFAKE Lack of insurance=death
rentnation 2 years ago
Uhhhhhh.....were 18th in the infant mortality rate. Ten years ago we were 11th!
rentnation 2 years ago
Stossel is a corporate whore.
There must be a special place in hell for people who lie for profit at the cost of human life and suffering,
nilent 2 years ago
This is the most retarded show I have ever seen... I hear a lot of questions but it sounds too damn much like the Reds trying to invade the States. Didn't you people get over that already, the whole world did...
MrVervetmonkey 2 years ago
Moore is a scumbag
19dan99 2 years ago
Michael Moore is so full of lies!
triisoe 2 years ago
That last line from Michael Moore is perfect!
John Stossel is such a hack! How does he stay on air?
Yeah private industry has really been outstanding!
Who can't name at least 20 or more Corp. that have screwed over the American people in the past ... I dunno... 10 years?
Enron, Exxon, Firestone Tire, Fannie Mae, Lockheed, Halliburton, WorldCom, MG Rover Group, Xerox, AOL, Arthur Andersen, Freddie Mac, Duke Energy, HealthSouth Corporation, AIG... many more
..just in the past 10yrs!
thejonny5ive 2 years ago 2
actually everybody does have access to health care in america. Its a law in the USA that a hosital CANNOT REFUSE LIFE SAVING TREATMENT BASED ON INCOME! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wrong sir, you may be in a bubble in some suburb but this is in fact NOT FACT
zakwingert 2 years ago
Actually you're wrong.
NOT every hospital is required to accept an emergency patient irregardless of their ability to pay. There are hundreds of for profit hospitals that will transport an emergency patient to a community or non-profit hospital for care.
Also, it you walked into a hospital and told them you have cancer (a non-emergency) and no insurance and are poor...do you think they would take care of you?
I think not.
kc10ken 2 years ago 2
I don't care what you "think", you have no facts to back you up.
What a tool.
theunbubba 2 years ago
The hospital would admit you when the cancer was at the point of actually killing you. Then they would keep you in ICU for weeks until you died and then they would bill the system hundreds of thousands of dollars for fucking "charity" care.
The current system is so perverse it could have been designed by Satan himself.
nilent 2 years ago
Baisically you want the healthcare system to throw people out on the street and let them die there?
spamannon 2 years ago
Exposing Michael Moore is a liar? Yeah, like that's real hard to do. John Stossel is the best thing in journalism today.
MonikaNGeneva 2 years ago 5
This documentary is so one sided, 2020 should not air something like this unless is it willing to do it "UNBIASED" they are so obviously for "for profit" health care so they make Canada look like its on the same level as a 3rd world country! Thats not true. No, its not perfect, wait times are still too long but its getting better. I beleive the system is good and needs improvement. No health care system is perfect anywhere! Canada is a leading researcher in medicine!
stiltzca33 2 years ago
so what if 20/20 does a biased review on a baised propaganda clip filmed by Michael Moore. Michael Moore was caught in several straight up lies that he refused to answer too, he then directs attention elsewhere. the debate wasn't about health care it was about Michael Moore's creditiblity, which is zero. Michael Moore lied and then asks us to prove him wrong on everything... no, thats not how it works.
gtq838 2 years ago 2
Canada is number 30 on the rankings of healthcare systems worldwide. Britain is number 18. During the 20/20 special they talked about how horrible it was in these countries. The system is "cracking"!
The United States is number 37, and Cuba is a close 39. The rankings were taken back in 2000, but it is very clear that Canada or at the very least Britain is doing something much better than we are. Even if he stretched the truth the WHO placed the U.S. only 2 rankings above the impoverished Cuba.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
statistics can say whatever you want them to. The problem with this study is that it bases this off of life expectency. which in the us is artifically altered by high homicide rates and artifically altered in cuba by straight up lying, they claim the average cuban lives as loing as an american, that just a fucking lie they die 20 - 30 years before an american does.
If you get a disease or cancer yu want to be in the USA to get the best treatment in the world.
gtq838 2 years ago
"WHOs assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health systems financial burden within the population (who pays the costs)"
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
yeah you can say whatever you want.
Nothing changes the fact that america has the absolute most advanced medical industry in the world. We have treatments only availible here and we invented a large ammount of the cures and medical devices used...
apparently we are doing something right.
better to have good service than cheap service. Our doctors are better and thus more expensive, you want cheap and slow drive to mexico or canada. I always hear about canada's advanced medicine, lol.
gtq838 2 years ago
I never said we didn't have advanced medicine, my beef is that not everyone has access to it. In 20/20 they talk about how hard it is to get this scan in Canada, when there are plenty of people in America that can't get the same thing because they can't afford it.
As for Mexico I've heard it's pretty bad, and I am very glad we are much better off than other countries. I just think America shouldn't settle, we should have the #1 spot on the chart--we should continue to strive for it until we do.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
actually everybody does have access to health care in america. Its a law in the USA that a hosital CANNOT REFUSE LIFE SAVING TREATMENT BASED ON INCOME!
Do they have a right to bill you for that life saving treatment afterwards, YES OF COURSE THEY DO!
If you get cured from cancer you should have to pay for it. Yes of course. If you cannot afford it bankrouptcy and other eascape routes exist to prevent you from losing your home and cars
gtq838 2 years ago
Americans get access for emergency situations. If you think they get to see a doctor anytime they are sick you are wrong. People will go the ER when they have a fever or a bladder infection, because this is the only way they can get treated.
You are missing the POINT of having health care for everyone. Health care isn't about treating the dying, it is about preventing diseases and other things before they become life-threatening.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
umm, thats called a physical. If you can't afford a physical then you already get government assistance.
The only time I ever went to a doctor is when I suspected something was wrong, thats all anybody in any country does.
If you are diagnosed with a degenerative disease THEY WILL TREAT YOU.
What are you suggesting that all seemingly healthy people go to the doctor and demand a dianosis?
mayo clinic is a good example, its free and widely considered best in the world.
gtq838 2 years ago
ex. cuba population about 11.5 million number of hospitals about 66 = 1 hospital for every 175,000 people.
america about 7,000 hospitals not counting the over 50,000 private practices comes out to a hospital per every 40,000 factor in private practices and we are looking at a clinic per about 5,000 americans
not sure about you but I have seen the hospitals in cuba. I prefer to have AC, antibotics, doctors, medicine, mris.
speaking of which cuba owns 2 mris we have thousands of them
gtq838 2 years ago
The survey did take into account how they handle healthcare with the resources provided. I am NOT advocating going off to Cuba because it is so great there. I'm just saying if the F*ing Cubans can get a ranking close to ours it should say something.
I may be a bleeding heart, but I just believe it is our duty as Americans to provide health care to all of our citizens. If we did that, and we did it the right way, we would have the #1 spot on that WHO list.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
yeah my point wasn't that we couldn't improve it was that that "WHO list" is bullshit. Any list that put cubas care anywhere near americas is just a flat out lie. that was the point of the REAL STATS listed below.
saying a country is better based on unknown variables has no meaning. They don't list the facts to support their insane claims. we have a doctors office or hospital for every 5,000 americans they have one for every 175,000 cubans and theirs suck on top of that.
NOT CLOSE AT ALL
gtq838 2 years ago
It is not based off of unknown variables. I posted the five things they used as criteria for the ranking system. You can look it up through the WHO if you want to learn more.
We are paying MORE money to NOT have health care for all Americans. If we payed for doctor's visits we would have less people rushed into the ER at the last minute who need expensive procedures to keep them alive.
Again, we could have THE BEST system if only everyone could benefit from it.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
Thats true, but if you are so broke you can't afford a doctor visit then you already can get government health care. If you are just too damn cheap to spend $50-$300 on a doctor visit then you get what you get. Not to mention the fact that even if you can't afford the $50 there are free clinics in every state of this country michigan has around 30 of them. We have hundreds of free clinics in this country and it does cost the tax payer anything.
if you are to lazy to drive 15 miles well..
gtq838 2 years ago
You just totally don't get what it's like. Who said anything about driving? If you own more than $3000 worth of property you don't qualify for state Medicaid. which means you take the bus. What's that? You work full time? Well I suppose you work for an understanding boss...
You have to make next to nothing to qualify for Medicaid. The only exceptions they make for income limit is usually for pregnant women. Also, in California many of the Medicaid benefits are only available to people until 21.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
Free clinics are wonderful, but you tell me about wait times at free clinics are great compared to even Canada. Yes, people often wait to go to the doctor until they don't feel great. Do you know how often cancer is found when someone goes in for just a headache that has been bothering them?
The problem is, if you don't have insurance you will put it off longer than any insured person would. They out it off going in to the doctor because it IS too expensive. People are often scared to get sick.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
Man, you like hip hop groups that are anarchists like Mos Def, you need to distinguish rap groups that are anarchists from the ones that rely on government assistance. Really be consistent on supporting ideas and people that support your cause.
Shotosboring1stpick 2 years ago
Are you including those that need ongoing care?
Care like Cancer? Diabetes? Heart Problems? Lung Issues? Mobility issues? Dietary and bowel issues?
I've seen Americans pull their own teeth to avoid dentist bills... How many Americans get denied care because they have a pre-existing condition?
It would be a shame to argue that the system you have now is working...
thejonny5ive 2 years ago
Canada and Britain have higher rankings because they offer socialized medicine. It is not based the actual quality of service the actual availability of service to the middle class or the poor. Even the claim that Canada is more equal is not based on the equality of the service provided.
Knoss 2 years ago
13th century?
Hey guys, apparently there was capitalism in the 1200's! Those peasants must really have had it nice.
Who is this idiot anyway?
CommodoreV 2 years ago
this isn't the 13th century, its the 21st century. you may have notived how things have improved since then thanks to capitalism.
gtq838 2 years ago 3
Why has CommodoreV's comment been given two thumbs down? It seems a pretty good comment to me. Adam smith is pretty much the founder of free market thought, 'The Wealth of Nations' was published in 1776... about 500 years later than Michael Moore's comment suggests. Michael Moore is clearly a complete fool - as one look at his gormless fat face attests.
dannidandannikins 2 years ago
liberal vs libertarian
americadashi 2 years ago
I'm guessing people would prefer to be denied by insurance companies than to wait a little longer and get help from socialized medicine.
There shouldn't be such as thing as "health insurance", but rather, health coverage. It's two different concepts. Health insurance would be like car insurance. However, I dont see auto insurance companies telling people they are not covered because they already knew they were going to crash, or that the crashed on purpose. Sounds ridiculous, right?
joemann797 2 years ago
we can't afford socialized medicine right now our economy will fail maybe when we aren't in a depression.
ProtectoroftheTruth 2 years ago
While the economy does suck, it doesn't mean that we can't. I know it is a different world from 60 years ago, but Britain formed their socialized medicine when the country was in ruins after World War II.
Like I said, totally different times, and I hope their is a way it can work. I'm not a financial expert so I have to trust what they come up with.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
Auto insurance companies do try to claim you as "at fault" for an accident or place equal fault on both of you, all so they don't have to pay out for your car repairs. Seems when things are profit-driven they will do not-so-nice things to save a little money.
cheezbawl2003 2 years ago
Socialised medicine is great when it isn't being consistently undermined by farming out aspects of hospital management (ie cleaning and hygeine) to private sector companies looking to maximise profits. This is one reason for the 'decline' of the NHS in the UK. It's easy to say a system isn't working when there are people doing everything within their power to hobble it.
furQ 2 years ago
Cubans live better than Americans
That's a fact
Hasta la Victoria Siempre !
4Barbudos 3 years ago
49 years after the Peoples Revolution.
1. Havana is a crumbling sewer.
2. Everyone with intelligence has left.
3. Cuban families live on $1800 a year.
4. Castro and his Brother are in power
all opposing parties are banned, anyone
who speaks out is shot or jailed.
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!
espada9 2 years ago 4
Good one Stossel: "the private sector does everything better". The US gov gave free riegn to the mortgage and banking industry. They started a global economic crisis.
Gary1111001 3 years ago
You should look up the community reinvestment act, the fixing of interest rates by the FED, Fannie and Freddie and how they were created and directed by government and what affect they had on the housing market. Once you've looked up all that, and that's just to name some of the most direct gov. infulences not them all, once you looked up all see if you still think the same.
SanguiniusX 3 years ago
I looked it up, as I did the last time I had this debate. Fannie Mae was privatized in 1968.
PS - I worked for a mortgage co. from 2002-07. I know all about the Fed/rates.
I'm not saying we should nationalize everything....We just need an accountable government to regulate the private sector because they're filled with selfish greedy lowlifes.
Gary1111001 2 years ago
Yes it was privitised, but it still had links to government, it had implicit backing which allowed it to borrow money at a lower interest rate. The President still appointed members to its board and it was exempt from local and state taxes. It had many perks which allowed it to grow. The typical socialist mindset is that anything privately owned is a free market. That's ignorant, that is just 1 of several conditions for a free market. A car with only one wheel isn't a car.
SanguiniusX 2 years ago
What a free market is is when market forces, and them alone, set prices and determine what products and services exist in an economy and in what proportions. Private ownership is but one precondition of achieving that. Feudalism had lots of private ownership but was uttlery anti-market, you probably can't tell the difference because to you the "free market" just means private sector.
SanguiniusX 2 years ago 2
Actually, Stossel is right. SanguiniusX hit the nail on the head.
coitalyeti 2 years ago
Michael Moore could do with a little Cuban style preventive health care. I.E. Starvation diet.
cruzander 3 years ago
michael moore is a tool.
tkrm333 3 years ago
The same liberals who advocate "socialized" medicine are the ones who can go to the Mayo Clinic.
StoogeWatcher 3 years ago
Only sheep believe the michael moore crap! I wish that the people who say they want socialized medicine would move to the countries tha institute this system. Then they can give us the skinny on this
marklincoln 3 years ago
This is to show that Michael Moore doesnt really care about wether his Data is valid or true. As long as it proves his point He happy. And as long as the general mass believes what he says then he happy.
So i say STOP BELIEVING WHAT MICHAEL MOORES SAYS, He tell lies to make fame and profit.
redeye117 3 years ago
the host is an asshole
cutiex87 4 years ago
so true
and sounds like an infant
Draven84 3 years ago
You guys are obviously not familiar with John Stossel.
Seiku 3 years ago 2
John Stossel is one of the most credible investigative reporters in the business so you have no clue
Nolimit75 3 years ago 2
When taking Cuba as an exampel, Michal Moore whent to far. Cuba is not better then the usa in any way, that fine care that the 9/11 heroes got was elit care. Castro used Moore for propaganda.
Abaaa00000 4 years ago
no. What Moore is showing (whether or not the elite hospital) is better, cheaper, and faster than the american system.
Propagandhi900 4 years ago
Seriously... Cuba is hell. They cant even sustain them self. There whole economy is reliant on money from Miami.
Pungopingu 4 years ago
I'm just talking about the healthcare SYSTEM.
Propagandhi900 4 years ago
I'm not saying USA should not have social health care (I like the idea), I'm just saying that Cuba is a bad example. I'm agreeing with Abaaa00000. If Satan began using social health care in hell, Michal Moore would go there and make Hell look great for the cameras.
Pungopingu 4 years ago
I don't think he made cuba look great. he made the health care system look like it is...better than the american....but the rest of cuba is a mess.
Propagandhi900 4 years ago
did you not look at this news report
the report shows clinics that are no where close to being as good as american clinics
gtownrooster 3 years ago
but the SYSTEM is better...the SYSTEM
SYSTEM <--- Key word here...noone else seems to understand what ti is.
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
yeah a socialist system is so much better...because it has always worked in the past
lets get real...socialist agendas take away "profit motive" which in turn makes people rely on the system for handouts
look at Europe and then tell me that this is a better system
France is going to be bankrupt in a few years and they are also in a state of stagflation it is all because of this "universal" healthcare system and a 35 hour work week..thats another topic for another day
ncposs 3 years ago
"France is going to be bankrupt in a few years and they are also in a state of stagflation it is all because of this 'universal' healthcare system and a 35 hour work week..thats another topic for another day"
Do you have proof of this or are you blowing words out your ass?
Healthcare should be given not sold. I know your fine with 55million people uninsured and the 125million who think they are covered but aren't becaus you can afford it.
PS: Not for profit healthcare works fine in Canada.
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
I generalized the bankrupt part
they are in debt and are spending more than they are taking in...deficit spending
yeah, they are in a state of stagflation, no growth...two reasons horrible productivity (35 hour work-week) and healthcare
Healthcare is never given because in the end the taxpayers pay
its not government's job to give you anything
a government big enough to give you what you want is also big enough to take it away
BG
what may work in canada may not work here
ncposs 3 years ago
Anything is better and faster in Hospital for the wealthy people.. Doesnt matther where you are.
redeye117 3 years ago
Not really. Universal healthcare u cannot pay to get ahead of someone else. It goes by how severe your problem is. If your dirt poor and you're coughing up blood, ur first. If your rich and you have an ear infection then your last. Hell, if u have an ear infection ppl should go to their family doctors.
My morals tell me that it's better that everyone has healthcare and some ppl have to wait, rather than 445 million ppl who dont have it. And the 125 million who THINK they are covered but ARENT.
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
Wrong.. Wealthy people dont go to public hospital. They go to illegal private hospitals.
Yeah in Canada family doctors is a luxury do you realise in Canada. People gets a family doctor via a lottery basis.. Do i want to subject my life to a game of luck..
Yeah its true universal healthcare everyone is covered.. but will it be there for you when times are needed??
redeye117 3 years ago
"When times are needed??"
that means what?
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
Lets say Iam in Canada.. I have a heart attack.. Which doctor say i need a heart sugery soon but unfortunately I have to wait for 2 weeks for a heart surgeon to be available.
So.. i risk another heart attack that could kill me as the system finds me a slot to save me.. Yeah its free and avaliable but if iam dead before it can come what the point..
redeye117 3 years ago
r u canadian?
scandall2012 3 years ago
No but i studied there for 2 years.. So i got a chance to witness and ask locals about it.
redeye117 3 years ago
in the end someone is going to pay...healthcare will never be given away...because the taxpayer pays for it
in other countries "free" healthcare works at the moment (soon will drive economies to the ground..people abuse)
the people of the united states are consumers...do you know how long waits would be in the US
ncposs 3 years ago
Why would those lines be so long?
Because you are adding 50 million people to the line! Of course waits for non emergency procedures will increase!
A recent Macleans Magazine study has shown that Canadians are richer, and work less than Americans do. We owe less money and spend less. We relax more and have way more sex.
Our economy is doing fine.
If you can afford to pay taxes for the war why can't you pay taxes for healthcare?
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
having more sex and relaxing more has nothing to do with the economics of free health care
im not worried if canadians are happier or have a better life than americans...doesnt matter to economists
what matters is the effiency of the two systems
our system is messed up right now because our insurance companies have eliminated competition (ill explain in next post why)
but free healthcare eliminates new innovation
there is no self interest for the doctors to find new cures
ncposs 3 years ago
1) It means that our stress levels are lower and that we can make time. This lower level of stress = less time in hospital which = healthy.
2) In 2005, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,401; in Canada, US$3,326.
Canada spends left; more left overs.
3) Insurance companies profit from denying things.
4) It isn't a doctors job to find cures, it's a scientists. In Canada we help fund these things.
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
vmaul17 3 years ago
Not true, Canadians earn more, however our cost of living is far greater than your cost of living. We do have socialized health care, however wait times are absurdly long, I've had to wait 9 hours for treatment of a head injury, while I was waiting another guy waited 8 before I walked in after coming out of a near fatal car accident, and he was there after I left. I don't know about you, but that's a little crazy.
quuaa1 3 years ago
IMO the whole Cuba fiasco was a Colab of Michael and Castro.
Michael just did the whole Cuban thing is to weaken American democracy in general.. He just wanted to potray Cuba Communism is doing better.
redeye117 4 years ago
are u retarded? It was about healthcare. That was the only thing about cuba in the movie. Canada is a democratic nation with universal healthcare.
Propagandhi900 4 years ago
That the point.. He wants to show the american capitalism healtcare system suxxor and Cuba socialism health care system is good.. WHICH IT NOT.. HE LIED in his documentary..
redeye117 3 years ago
Are all you right wing twats enrolled at the same school for the mentally challenged?
I SAID SYSTEM. HE SHOWS THE SYSTEM. It's true he doesn't show the worse side of the healthcare SERVICE, but he does show what IS avaliable for people to use.
CUBAN SYSTEM = Not for profit, Service = Mediocre to not good
USA SYSTEM = All about profit, and making money. Service = good to excellent (one step above very good).
Canada SYSTEM = Not for profit. Service = good to very good.
Propagandhi900 3 years ago
Yeah and whats is available is only for the rich and privilege. Anyone can get good healthcare as long as the dough come in. Doesnt matther where u are.
I live in Malaysia where its as a commonwealth country we have universal like UK which is just like canada. Yeah going to a goverment hospital is near free but god the hospital are shabby and queue are long. Also doctors dont really have time for you with the numbers of patients stacking. Go try the system our yourself then you see what i mean.
redeye117 3 years ago
The CIAs credibilaty isn't really all that great in my opinion since Iraq...
I love that they only discuss Cuba. Why do they avoid the subject of countries that are around the USA level of development with socialized medicine, like say Sweden?
Myschly 4 years ago
since EVER...
do your research on drug smuggling, its link to the Kennedy assassination, and whether or not bin Laden is still alive
RedIce08 4 years ago
I do see the problem, I don't agree with the fix. The fix is contrary to how this country works. Everyone looks to Europe for answers, but this country is premised on NOT looking to Europe. Hell, we fought a revolution to improve on Europe's failures.
johnh926 4 years ago
"Hell, we fought a revolution to improve on Europe's failures."
True but they are a lot freer than we are in a lot of areas now. They have more basic human rights while fascism is creeping it's way into the US. Maybe it's about time we did look back.
The clue is that they would never give up their social systems (they're not perfect I know) but we're just begging to have our system changed.
thedrax 4 years ago
I just wish anytime a new law, policy, bill, amendment was considered by congress, the long-lasting consequences would be taken into consideration rather than just posed to get votes for either party. They only look out for their term in office, not our "term" as taxpayers.
johnh926 4 years ago
"They only look out for their term in office, not our "term" as taxpayers."
That's a totally different subject but I partly agree with you on that.
thedrax 4 years ago
Different subject? This IS the subject: Every Democrat is running their campaigns on UHC worded to generate votes. They have not reconciled the economic consequences. To listen to those politicians you would think they were going to legislate utopia. Votes first.
johnh926 4 years ago
"Every Democrat is running their campaigns on UHC worded to generate votes."
Yep they are and None of them (except for the Kucinich plan of course), actually IS UHC.
All their plans do is Universally force everyone to buy insurance.
It's legal extortion in my book and I don't agree with any of them.
Except H.R. 676 of course.
thedrax 4 years ago
Right big deal. Facts and reason mean nothing. Like Moore answers to no one. It's all about money. Just listen to reason!
DDDD04 4 years ago
People look at life expectancy statistics as the primary measure of our health-care system compares to other industrialized countries. But they forget that we have a higher rate of car accidents, suicide, and homicide than most of these countries. You have to factor those in too. I guess for some of these people, ideology is more important than facts.
trfonline 4 years ago
*whine*..."but life expectancy fit's the template of our agenda..."
I've had this argument before, and it rarely gets a response. Next will come infant mortality rates, then 47 million Americans...
johnh926 4 years ago
johnh926: You might want to utilize a calculator and a dictionary next time you post. Site = cite and 2700-2800 or so people died on 9/11, so 13,000 is not quite 10 9/11's is it? To be sure, Mr. Moore's works are agitprop at it's finest, but that does not mean he's never right. America's healthcare system is rotten for all but the upper echelon of society. Moore may not have all the answers but at least he's drawing attention to a great need.
mrsasso19 4 years ago
my bad, whoops on the math. I bought a calculator based on your outstanding powers of perception. Attention SHOULD be drawn to the problem, but lets be realistic about the solution: there are fixes available that do not result in ANOTHER bureaucracy and higher taxes. To assume there is only ONE solution (UHC) is a naive & dangerous power grab for control over your life. Private sector solutions are what this country was built upon and has worked every time they have been tried.
johnh926 4 years ago
watch?v=cIQ7UxfrOQ4 Part one of a series. Lots of juicy lies and deceptions moore made, pointed out. and "Michael Moore Hates America" is another good one.
Food for thought. If so many people need healthcare, why doesn't Moore donate all his excess money to people who need it? And I mean ALL of it, talkin moore should have no more than 100k to his name.
girzwald 4 years ago
Oh and John Stossel Doesn't Have an Agenda of his own Riiiight?
Here, do yourselves a favor and have a look at what Stoss already thought about health care earlier this year..Pre-Sicko.
watch?v=F93RHTpD0qo
Then come tell me he (Stossel) doesn't have his own agenda for health care. He's trying to sell more books fools. You people are so easily mislead by Corporations.
Wake up and stop watching the big 3 networks for "News". They're owned, and so are you.
thedrax 4 years ago
Of course he has an agenda. Everyone has an agenda. His happens to be that there is a better way to deal with the health care system by opening it up to free markets and make them compete for customers- like the other 2/3rds of our economy which works.
johnh926 4 years ago
"Of course he has an agenda. Everyone has an agenda."
Ummm yes, that's the problem. When I tune into 20/20 I expect an objective news story, Not John Stossel's agenda.
The news channels are owned dude, you can't depend on them for unbiased, real news anymore, but seems like you've already accepted and embraced that.
Free market is great, just not for health care.
thedrax 4 years ago
You are agenda free? You have no passion for which you would like to see change? Media is ALWAYS put through the filter of who's reporting. Smart consumers view all sides and make their own decisions--anything else is intellectually lazy.
johnh926 4 years ago
Can you make a case as to why free market competition is not right for Health Care when every other time it's been applied, costs have come down, innovation has increased, productivity has grown,supply has been met, demand has been met, access has been expanded, and the economy has thrived. Where is the down side?
johnh926 4 years ago
"Can you make a case as to why free market competition is not right for Health Care"
In 500 characters or less..maybe...Ok Cars..Free Market..lots of choices. Lot's of competition and therefore lower prices, but still..Not everyone can afford them or even if they can afford, they go without. Which is exactly my point with Free market health care..People with less money will still go without and what does that solve? It favors people with money to spend, not everyone has money. Cont...
thedrax 4 years ago
Big Picture:
UHC advocates tend to ignore personal responsibility. I have a HSA. I contribute enough in there to cover my yearly deductible, so the money is in that account. I grew up, I don't go out to eat every night, I drive a car I can afford, live in a house I can afford, don't own a HD tv. But my priority is my family, not Monday Night Foot Ball on a 60" TV. Americans need to grow up.
johnh926 4 years ago
"UHC advocates tend to ignore personal responsibility."
Here's my idea of personal responsibility.
Picking up my neighbor when they fall down.
Giving him a leg up if I get the chance.
I hold myself personally responsible if I just walk on by and don't help someone in need.
You might be able to live with it but I can't.
thedrax 4 years ago
"Picking up my neighbor when they fall down.
Giving him a leg up if I get the chance."
that is great and admirable--no issue at all with that. Do you remain personally responsible for those that have no intention of helping themselves and find it much easier to just suck off the system rather than working as hard as you do?
johnh926 4 years ago
"..for those that have no intention of helping themselves.."
You're talking about a very small percent of the population in America. Most Americans are hard working..like me..but can't afford it anyway.
Those are the people that Universal will benefit the most and there are a lot of us.
thedrax 4 years ago
very small percentage? that percentage is growing, and would explode if UHC passed since another incentive to be productive would evaporate leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab. I'd say that the 6 million people that are eligible to receive medicare benefits but refuse to is a sizable percentage of the "47 million".
johnh926 4 years ago
"that percentage is growing"
Yep you're right..more and more Americans are without health insurance for many different reasons but you'd like to lump them in with the very small percentage of lazy, do-nothings and that's where you're wrong.
I don't want to part with my money either but it's for the greater good, which is fine with me.
thedrax 4 years ago
...cont...Stossel also advocates HSAs. HSAs are great..IF you work and have money to put into them. There is also the matter of the extremely high deductibles with HSAs...Not everyone can afford them and once again favor the well off and leave the poor and most of the middle class to "go without" since they won't always have petty cash around to throw at it...and that kind of defeats the purpose of reforming the health care system no?
thedrax 4 years ago
You know, sometimes life requires priorities. There are plenty of people that complain they can't afford health care or HSA which would pay your deductibles but since they prioritized a Plasma TV, Caddy lease, home they actually can't afford, etc..and give their health care on back burner till they need it and want it paid by somebody else. Grow up and take responsibility.
johnh926 4 years ago
My god, do you really believe the majority of those without insurance are spending their money on plasma TV's? The majority of 47 million people? What is it about those who've lucked into some form of financial security and believe that every American life is identical, and those struggling are simply lazy? You can't be serious.
cjarvis 4 years ago
No, and that's not what I said. I said that there are plenty of people that complain about not being able to afford insurance when they prioritize the "wants" in their lives over the "needs". If you own a boat for recreation, but can't afford health insurance, that's a problem. Also, I didn't "luck" into financial security, I prioritized it.
johnh926 4 years ago
"..Plasma TV, Caddy lease, home they actually can't afford, etc.."
Not sure what you mean?...I've got none of those things..Not even close..I live in a rented apartment, drive a car from the 80s, go to school and work 6 days a week just to get by but my job doesn't offer health care.
There are millions like me..so we're lazy?
You don't know what you're talking about.
thedrax 4 years ago
No. yer not lazy, and you missed the whole point. I was merely commenting on those that choose their "wants" over their "needs" and then complain they can't afford coverage when they get hurt water skiing behind their 25 foot boat.
johnh926 4 years ago
"water skiing behind their 25 foot boat."
These people too..are a very small percent. Most people with 25 foot boats are not complaining they can't afford things. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but I find it a negligible factor in the bigger equation.
thedrax 4 years ago
what so many advocates of UHC just do not comprehend are basic principles of economics. Sure the feel-good coverage for all is there, but the ramifications are completely ignored. Laws of economics are irrefutable and when attempts to manipulate them blow up, the unintended consequences increase exponentially until market forces correct themselves. UHC is a manipulation of economic forces that can not succeed long term with out dire consequence.
johnh926 4 years ago
"so many advocates of UHC just do not comprehend are basic principles of economics."
If you listen to Noam Chomsky he sometimes talks about a Government run system running at a loss for the greater good of the people.
It makes sense.
You can talk about the money all you like but the right and humane, not to mention Patriotic thing to do, is cover all Americans, regardless.
thedrax 4 years ago
"running at a loss for the greater good..." is a perfect example of irresponsible economics. Nothing runs at a loss for long. It can't. That loss either spells the demise of the system, or is made up for with MORE taxes. Apply it to evolution: those that are not the fittest (running at a loss) become extinct. It's inevitable and irrefutable.
johnh926 4 years ago
"..."running at a loss for the greater good..." is a perfect example of irresponsible economics."
You can argue with Noam if you want but it's so other areas of Government and the People can flourish. As in Americans will be more healthy and therefore more productive.
More productivity means a stronger America...
Isn't that the end goal?
thedrax 4 years ago
More productivity is a direct result of responsible economics,not running at a loss (it's called a loss for a reason...you lose.) Any entity "running at a loss" ceases to exist without subsidies by the taxpayer. Ceasing to exist is a detriment to productivity, not a boon.
johnh926 4 years ago
Look john you can talk about it being more expensive but It's just not the case. Canada has had a balance budget for the last 10 years running.
9.9% of Canada's GDP was spent towards health care with 100% of it's citizens covered.
Meanwhile in the US ,15.2% of the GDP with only about 75% of it's citizens covered consistently covered.
We spent almost double with less people covered. See the problem?
thedrax 4 years ago
Totally agree that the Current US system is broke. Rather than scrap it and replace it with government run, it can be fixed with free market purchasing power of the consumers. This too eliminates the money hording insurance industry by forcing them to be competitive. They compete, innovate, improve service or consumers go elsewhere. Another other company WILL capitalize on bad business practices of other carriers.
johnh926 4 years ago
Someone in another thread brought up cellphone providers to use as an example of "free market" working....how?
I pay almost $60 a month for basic cellphone service. I don't consider that "low priced".
Cut that in half and I would start to believe.
...And my basic point is, not everyone can afford to have one. Free market health care will not make it available to all..and they shouldn't be forced into a half-assed poverty program with tons of paperwork.
thedrax 4 years ago
UHC (actual UHC and not a sorry excuse for it) will Lower costs..not raise them..by streamlining the entire process.
Not only that it takes the greed of the profit driven insurance companies completely out of the equation. Which also saves money (not to mention lives).
Medicare(socialized) runs at about 3% overhead costs, meanwhile our current system runs at over 30% overhead costs.
You do the math.
thedrax 4 years ago
"...by streamlining the process..."
Name one instance that government "streamlined" anything better than the private sector while driving costs down---not subsidizing it with taxpayer money, but truly driving the costs down consistently.
johnh926 4 years ago
The fire dept. for example in areas of the country were privatized. Didn't work. Socialized it and made it much better. Today it's not even a second thought on peoples minds.
That said, a national database would be implemented with UHC and would reduce or eliminate the need for paperwork. Reducing costs and thereby "streamlining".
Health care is too important to trust free market entities with. Too many ways to neglect the customer and get away with it.
thedrax 4 years ago
The fire department is a bad example. Fire departments are locally funded by the municipalities they service. There is no national fire department that is looking after my house. Not to mention, property taxes pay for it, therefore property owners are protected.
johnh926 4 years ago
"The fire department is a bad example."
For you it is yes.
You're right, we do disagree at a very basic level. My opinion is that high quality health care is a basic human right for any citizen, while you think it's a privilege.
thedrax 4 years ago
NO, I don't think it's a privilege for the rich. I also don't think it's a "right". Life is a right- Constitution says so. Health care is a product. It's produced by the labor of people and therefore is for sale, not free. I believe it should be an affordable choice to purchase it.
johnh926 4 years ago
So the basis of your argument is "life" and "health" are not related at all?
WhatCrass 4 years ago
No, life and health are obviously related. "Life" and "health care" are separate issues. One is a basic right by the Constitution. "Right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness..." Health care is a product produced by the labor of people. Unless one is willing to force people into the Health Care industry, it can not be defined as a "right". It's a product for sale.
johnh926 4 years ago
I understand your argument about Constitutional rights but there are services the government does that are not explicitly in the Constitution like emergency responders. We pay our taxes and we get firefighters. If we get into a car accident and we need their assistance, the labor comes to our aid. The price for their product is paid by "we the people". So far the Supreme Court has not outlawed any of these agencies, so they must be Constititutional.
WhatCrass 4 years ago
that is correct, the government does provide local municipalities the structure to provide fire/police/first responders. These are local entities and paid for by the local community. That is a far cry from a National Health Care System and the complexities therein. Look at it this way: gov't is empowered to protect us from each other, not from ourselves- that involves personal responsibility. Democrats want as many people depending on the government as possible as a perpetual power grab.
johnh926 4 years ago
"that involves personal responsibility"
Let me guess...You're a libertarian and you're voting for Ron Paul right?
Bro you are so far gone and caught up in capitalism you've lost sight of what it means to be an American.
You go ahead and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Meanwhile, I'll be helping my neighbor and together we'll do it better and faster and with less effort.
thedrax 4 years ago
I'm caught up in capitalism? Capitalism has been the catalyst for the success of this country. I'm not ashamed of capitalism. Capitalism is the American way and it's worked every time it's been tried. Your socialist views do not mesh with this countries values, like it or not.
No. I would not waste my vote on Ron Paul, he's a bit out there for even me: Mr. Capitalist.
johnh926 4 years ago
I read this today....
"The withholding of healthcare from any human for any reason is an abomination.
Citing economic reasons using social cost benefit analysis as a factor in allocating health care, is, in my mind, equivalent to treating the human being as a commodity, something to be valued in terms of capital; fascism, pure and simple, and runs contrary to the constitutional guarantee that every American has to pursuit of happiness."
...and I agree.
thedrax 4 years ago
Where is that sourced, I would like to read it. Also, I would argue that the constitutional guarantee is the "pursuit" of happiness, not a constitutional handout to be happy. Meaning each individual has the equal opportunity to do what it takes to achieve their individual definition of "happiness"; NOT that the government is a happiness factory and to distribute utopia to it's citizens on the backs of other citizens. They need to participate in their own happiness.
johnh926 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Also, the "pursuit of happiness" phrase in the constitution is interesting not in what it says, but what it does NOT say. What it is NOT implying and what it is NOT guaranteeing. I guess my point is that Americans have become enamored with the idea that they don't need to have a stake in their own well being anymore if we can get the government/somebody else to just do it for us. That is NOT how America eclipsed the rest of the world in it's relatively short history.
johnh926 4 years ago
interesting that this comment has been marked as spam...must have hit a nerve with someone. Must be much easier than refuting the message. That's the liberal way: get rid of dissent. Thanks for the proof. Cowards.
johnh926 4 years ago
The funny thing is that we both want to get people the health care that they need. In that respect, we are on the same page.
The scarry thing is that you are not open to any system other than socialized care which makes me think for you, it's the socialism you part that you want for Americans, not the health care since there are unexplored alternatives that don't require government controls. What is your end game? Socialism or Health Care?
johnh926 4 years ago
"It's a product for sale."
Look out dude...you've been brainwashed.
thedrax 4 years ago
Part of the whole problem with this debate is that the definitions of "life", "Health" and "Health Care" have been blurred all together. There are distinctions when logic is applied. Should the system be fixed? Yes. Health care should be made affordable so citizens can prioritize it and purchase it like any other product that requires the labor of other citizens. Market forces have that power if allowed to do so-unlike now.
johnh926 4 years ago
"I also don't think it's a "right". "
Well then this conversation is over. Health care is a right and nothing you can ever say will change my mind on that. Nothing.
Every human on this planet has the right to live and sometimes to continue living, we need help..and that help comes in the form of life saving health care, from Doctors.
thedrax 4 years ago
"sometimes to continue living, we need help.."
Sometimes. That is the key word in your argument. "Sometimes" does not constitute scrapping a fixable system for UHC. What you are in favor of is not "sometimes" its a manatory "always". What if there was a legitimate way to "sometimes" help without Socialized care?. Would you be for that?
johnh926 4 years ago
People like Stossel here love to bring up the wait times. Well Canada has a shortage on Doctors, which causes the wait times. We in the US on the other hand do not have a shortage of Docs.
There are many factors as to why that is but the fact remains, we have plenty of Docs to implement UHC here with little problem.
thedrax 4 years ago
"Well Canada has a shortage on Doctors, which causes the wait times."
Canada has a shortage of Doctors because in the 90"s, 10,000 left their practices because it was not financially beneficial. Socialized care directly to blame
johnh926 4 years ago
"..it was not financially beneficial."
Yes greed is an ugly thing. If the U.S. were to go universal it's sad to say that instead of making 500k a year a Doctor might only make a mere 400k a year. It's harsh I know but it's something I think people (including Docs) could deal with.
thedrax 4 years ago
I think where you and I disagree at a basic level is that I believe the government's roll is to protect us from each other, and you believe the government's roll is to protect us from ourselves.
johnh926 4 years ago
"and you believe the government's roll is to protect us from ourselves."
No, I believe the Government should do whatever we want it to....and right now I'd like it to enact social insurance for all of it's citizens.
Just like every other country in the free, industrialized world.
thedrax 4 years ago
Yes you do. By enacting "social"ized care, you are protecting citizens from themselves by making decisions for them that they are capable of making for themselves. Aren't you advocating the merits of Socialism?
johnh926 4 years ago
that is a cop out answer.
johnh926 4 years ago
Not to be rude, but who are you to decide what is enough for someone else. In this country, a non-socialist country, the government has absolutely NO business telling anyone "we've decided you make too much money...it's for the common good. Even liberal politicians vote themselves pay hikes.
johnh926 4 years ago
"Not to be rude, but who are you to decide what is enough for someone else."
Aren't you doing the same thing in the way of saying that medicare is good enough for the less fortunate?
Access to high quality health care is a right we should all enjoy equally.
Now if you're talking HD TVs and BMW's, that's completely different...but you're trying to make it the same.
thedrax 4 years ago
Again, NO. I think medicare is crap. It's horribly government managed, underfunded, and a taxpayers money sucking vortex. Universal Care would end up being Medicare on steroids. I'd rather pull everyone up to better care vs. down to "equal", but crappy, Medicare for all.
johnh926 4 years ago
"...and a taxpayers money sucking vortex."
You want to see a real "vortex"..why not study up on the Federal Reserve Bank.
Then come back and talk to me about money sucking.
thedrax 4 years ago
I can't wait to see Moore wipe the floor with this guy.
thedrax 4 years ago
Did you even watch the video? Moore got sent to a part of the hospital for the elite. The elite and ones with cash get one type, the others get crap. Other countries fudge the numbers for baby deaths and cuba is no doubt lieing about their numbers because they HATE america becasue we are so rich and sucessful. Stossel moped the floor with moore with one weapon. The truth.
girzwald 4 years ago
"Moore got sent to a part of the hospital for the elite."
Nope haven't seen it but I plan to. So because Stossel says it's true, it must be a fact right?..even though Moore is sitting there telling him no, you're wrong. So automatically Moore is the one lying? Why couldn't Stoss be lying?..or misleading you....any reason you have for that?
Even if it was true, you're missing the entire point of the movie...have you even seen Sicko?...Recommended viewing since you want to discuss it.
thedrax 4 years ago
Even with giving moore the benefit of the doubt that they put him in the elite