Building carriers was unwise because the UBoat was Germany's most powerful maritime weapon.
Having said that, Hermann Goering was the Kreigmarine's worst enemy when it came to aviation at sea and if this ship had ever entered service the English would never rest until they sank it.
Imagine all the extra submarines Germany might have built had they not wasted time and materials on capital ships like battleships and this carrier. Instead of starting the war with 50 subs, they might have had 200-300 or more.
This is a surprise. I'd heard of this aircraft carrier and always assumed that it didn't get off the drawing board. How on earth was it not completed? It's just as well that it wasn't, the whole course of the war may have differed as the Royal Navy was struggling as it was with Germany's submarine fleet
Having said that and looking at those pictures, she looks majestic and I feel a tinge of sadness that she wasn't finished. Just as well, though
@Poopingbotham Well, there was a struggle between Göring and the Navy High Command whether the Navy should get an own air branch or not. Furthermore at the begin of the war the construction was slowed down in favor for submarine construction and in 1943 it was completely stopped.
It wouldve been interesting if the Graf Zeppelin was fully commissioned before the outbreak of WWII and sailing in the Atlantic and the only ships that I can think that would provide adequate protection from the Royal Navy, are the Scharhorst and the Gniesenau and also a screen of U-boats.
@EvilFingers Well, it was planned to use her as raider. I dunno if the Kriegsmarine planned to use her in a bigger task force since those would hve been easier to spot.
the german navy z-plan needed 2-4 aircraft carriers to fight the british...carriers provide combat airpatrol...both bismarck and tirpitz were sunk without any air support to shoot down british swordfish biplane torpedo bombers! etc...
@tamenga88 Yes, Flugzeugträger B should have carried the name Peter Strasser after an airship captain. She was finished to the armour deck and should have been launched in April 1940. But she was scrapped the same year.
@ Dr. Gull, you have an even better and larger collection of pix of Graf Zeppelin, than I. I saw the ship myself at the Hakenterasse in the early war years when my school was evacuated from Cologne to Aalbeck. Taking Pix was verboten" but I snuck a shot from far away and I still have somewhere. I built a 200 scale RC model of her and run it with other shipmodels: P. Eugen and Bismarck. I was lucky to be able to correspond with Capt. Hadeler her chief architect
Is it possible that you and the youtube user koelschwolf are the same person? No offence, just curiosity. You share common points of biography like being from Cologne, being evacuated and seeing the ship as a kid, the same hobby of model ship building, correspondance with Hadeler and having the same age.
Europa and Breman,after escaping back to Germany in 39 sat out the rest of the war[Breman was torched by an arsonist in 41]50,000 tons 130,000shp 30 + knots 4 screws,what CV's they could of made
The reason to Graf Zeppelin's cancellation was in fact the HMS Glorious. When HMS Glorious was shot down and sunk so easily by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Hitler believed that such a ship with no self defence would not enforce Kriegsmarine but would rather require much more effort to be protected by various units. And that was the last thing Kriegsmarine needed, as it would divide and weaken the forces.
From the reading I have done, the German Navy intended to use Battleships and Carriers together. If an enemy surface force materialized then the Battleships would go forward and the carriers would fall back but provide aircover. Since the German fleet was never completed (the Germany Navy would have not been ready for war until 1946) the carrier/battleship force never came to be.
Ah, I see. A classic use for carriers. I read, as I wrote before, that the Kriegsmarine wanted to use her as merchant raider. And I have no doubt that Graf Zeppelin would have been hunted down like Bismarck.
@PitbullNL No the Rn was supplied with the best carrier aircraft gruman, F4F, F6F, Corsairs, Avengers stukas were obsolete in 1940, ME109 weak landing gear not even carrier capable.
I have the Revell 1/720 Graf Zeppelin, which I shall thoroughly enjoy building. I think it would have been equal to the Illustrious class (theoretically), as the Ju87 and Bf109 were already proven performers. Ju87 may have continued to be relevant as a naval attack plane into 1943 maybe (eventhough outmoded earlier in the war), as vs. shipping it was an excellent ordinance-delivery platform, Rudel himself sinking the Russian BB Marat with 1 well-placed bomb, while flying a Ju87B.
I also owned the Revell model kit. I only finished the hull. See the similarity to the original? When I moved out from my parents I divested myself of most of my model kits and presented Graf Zeppelin to a buddy who finished it.
I agree, she could have been a match for Illustrious-Class and her planes would have done their job until 42 or perhaps 43.
Didnt Royal Navy have a small fleet stationed somewhere called 'Force Z'. What was the name of Repulse+PrWales in the Pacific, right before they were sunk?
The Kriegsmarine plan was for a series of carriers, linked to battlefleets, and known as 'Z' Forces.
The big problem was Herman Goreing, who would not allow his aircraft or crews to equip the carriers without a say in naval policy. The row rumbled on, until the whole plan became unfeasible.
Never heard of the Z force. But I heard of the Z-Plan, the plan of upgrading Kriegsmarine with 6 H-Class Batlleships, 4 O-Class battlecruisers, several new packet battleships and two carriers of Graf Zeppelin-Class.
You are absolutely right with Göring. His claim to master everthing which flies delayed the creation of a fleet air arm.
The actual term Z Kraft(en) is used by Erich Raeder in his 1937 Vordere Planung (forward planning) document, (lectures at Wilemshaven). His great desire, to make all capital ships free from the bonds of escort ships, (destroyers), and so enable an 'all weather' series of fleets in being, were obstructed by Hitler, forcing Raeder to use his heavy units piecemeal, as mere surface raiders.
He saw the future threat was not with attacking hordes of destroyers, but the threat of the aeroplane.
Graf Zeppelin would has been the the bigest and most powerfull aircraft carrier of WWII and Germany planned before WWII build many similar aircraft carriers after Graf Zeppelin. Germany had no resurses to finish that huge project. Graf Zeppelin was hugely larger than any aircraft carrier during WWII. It was simply huge, but it was never finished. Since 1943 it was impossible priorise that kind of massive navy project when Barbarossa after Stalingrad was turning towards military catastroph.
I beg to differ. Japanese carriers like Kaga or Akagi were bigger. USS Essex, was as big as Graf Zeppelin, USS Midway and USS Saratoga were even bigger. But you are right, the Nazis planned to build more carriers and you are also right that the war situation after the failure of Barbarossa and the disaster of Stalingrad prevented a completition of Graf Zeppelin.
Okey, I agree with you that Kaga and Akagi were bigger. USS Essex was little bigger too. Then USS Midway and USS Saratoga never fought at WWII. USS Midway was built just when WWII was over and USS Saratoga is clearly younger. USS Midway and USS Saratoga were Korean War and Vietnam War era aircraft carriers. Both were out of WWII. Japan then had few really huge ships like the Battleship Yamato and aircraft carriers Kaga and Akagi. On the other side Graf Zeppelin was ordered 1935, USS Essex 1940.
USS Saratoga (CV-3) was built in 1925 and sunk at Bikini in 1946. Perhaps you mistake her with Forrestal-Class Saratoga? USS Midway was built from 1943 to 1945. Therefore she was planned and built during WWII for WWII. Nevertheless she didn't participate in an operation during this war.
Okey, the USA´s navy really has had two USS Saratoga. The older USS Saratoga (CV-3) was built 1925, comissioned 1927. That another USS Saratoga (CV-60) was lainched 1955 and comissioned 1956. The older USS Saratoga (CV-3) was quite old aircraft carrier during WWII. It was little bigger than Graf Zeppelin. I think that Graf Zeppelin was more modern and better equipped. USS Saratoga´s first version (a battle cruiser) was ordered during WWI 1917 (changed to aircraft carrier 1922).
Indeed a modern design with modern equippment. The casemattes were odd. But she would have been heavier and better protected than HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious.
I think the "Saratoga" he is referring to is clearly the 2 prewar Lexington-class (built on BCruiser hulls, remember?). As completed, they had 8 x 8in guns, but carried over 80+planes, even with the more modern (non-biplane) planes of 1941/42--Definitely more 'powerful' (more planes) than Graf Zep, which would have had about 40 planes (Bf109T, Ju87T). There's simply no comparison to a late war Essex-class, because of the 90 planes of F4U, F6F, TBM quality. Taiho great design too.
if the Nazi s could finish that ; im sure about one thing. this carrier could be better than other variations. in everything nazi s did fighter plane,tanks,canons something better than others
Nice commentary and perspective on the Kriegsmarine's shortcomings. As is often the case, the German equipment may have performed well (GrafZep), but in the case of this weapons system that a CV is, it was never operational, so no war-related improvements in hardware, planes, procedures, damage control, etc...So it was a stillborn concept, in sharp contrast to the R&D of the Luftwaffe, Panzer forces, and the Unterseebooten, which all produced technically outstanding hardware.
Absolutely right, a stillborn concept. I think the German hardware had huge problems with being technically too fancy and being driven by wish thinking. Think of tanks like the King Tiger and the Maus which were slow as hell and an easy target for an airstrike. Think of the liability of jet engines and fuel shortages which hampered the Luftwaffe.
With the benefit of hindsight its easy to see the designers of the surface fleet were trying to do to much with displacement in order to achieve an edge in quality over the older but more numerous ships of the RN . They should of concentrated on simple lean long legged cruisers to attack trade routes all over the vast areas of ocean that was the life blood of Britain and the Commonwealth .
They didn't know better. Most of the planners and flag officers learned their profession under Wilhelm II. and they adapted it with little improvements.
One carrier alown could not have challanged England's naval supremecy. However if it had been commissioned before Operation Rheinübung and Hitler had waited for as many of Germany's capital ships to be operational for Rheinübung as possible (AKA Graf Zeppelin, Tirpitz, Gneisenau and Scharnhorst) he could have launched a much more credable force for operation Rheinübung and that single decision to only send two ships could have changed history.
You never know. But an operation like you suggest would have created other problems for the Kriegsmarine, like fuel, a chance for the Royal Navy to vipe out the mightiest German ships with one strike and even if those ships had reached the Atlantic and caused a lot of trouble to the British convoy system, it wouldn't have brought Britain to her knees. When more of those operations had happened with the RN wearing off herself, then perhaps. But there is still the fuel problem.
ENORMES SCHIFF ABER DIE H SCHIFFE WARWN NOCH GRÖSSER;DIESES SCHIFF WAR AUCH DER SCHNESSTE FLUGZEUGTRÄGER;ÜBER 34 knoten,da können wir sehen auch da war deutschland besser!:DIE JAPANISCHEN JUNKEN HATTEN DOCH KEINE PANZERUNG WIR HATTEN DIE:
Me262 came to production at a time when Germany's superiority was long gone. So it's doubtful that one single carrier, armed with Me262 would have made a difference.
The He-280 jet fighter would have been a stop gap fighter whilst the Me-262 was developed. But infighting and politics got in the way...as usual in the 3rd Reich. The jet program, or the carrier program for that matter never had a sense of urgency until it was too late.
Da stimme ich mit Hadeler überein. Ein Flugzeugträger hat Flugzeuge um sich den Feind vom Leib zu halten. Wozu dann Kasematten? Der Einsatz als Handelsstörer ist eine Fehlplanung und die Royal Navy hätte sich die Hände gerieben.
Das mit den Unstimmigkeiten zwischen Raeder und Göring habe ich in der Videobeschreibung erwähnt, bin aber nicht tiefer darauf eingegangen.
Ich glaube Ihnen das schon mit dem Buch. Ich habe auch so manchen alten Druck im Besitz, den man bei google kaum findet.
Ich fand das blos mit der HO-IX etwas weit hergeholt.
Interessant, das mit den Microfilmen. Wie kommt man an sowas heran? Vor allem über den Umbau der Seydlitz und der Fahrgastschiffe findet man eher selten etwas.
I've read allot about this fascinating ship and it seems to me like it's builders persistens in making the ultimat warship, was the main reason it never went in to battle,
That Ju87C (folding wing variant) looks really cool--reminds me of F4F and Avenger wing-fold mechanism which lays the wings back. Deadly plane in 1939-1941. Would have been VERY effective vs. shipping! (till '43)
I think it had to do with human vanity. Goering demanded all flying vessels under his controll. He saw a naval airforce as a competitor to the Luftwaffe and as a cut to his power.
if the germans had developed the CVE from existing frieghters,.instead of merchant raiders[steir]Such a low budjet weapon could of given Germany control of the worlds sea lanes.
Germany had a war winning weapon under its nose,the CVE.If merchant raiders[atlantis]had bein fitted with flight decks and stuka's.Britians sea comunication would of bein in doubt
Doubtful. Would Britain have watched Germany to construct CVEs in peacetime without reacting? Would Britain have allowed German CVEs to break into the Atlantic? Raiders like the Atlantis were easy to camouflage as freighters, CVEs are not. Any other German surface unit was hunted, sometimes with success. A large number of CVEs would have increased the fuel consumption of Kriegsmarine. Maybe the CVEs would have ended as fleet in being in a Norwegian fjord. More promissing was the submarine.
the RN had neglected their air arm,both the IJN and USN had surpased the Brits in aircraft types,size and number of carriers.If germany was going to challenge the RN at sea,it wouldn't be with conventional warships.type XXI was to far in the future in 1939.Naval air would of upset the naval balance
I don't doubt a fleet air arm to be decisive. In the North Sea CVEs wouldn't be suitable. And for the use of CVEs as raiders read my comment above. I didn't refer to type XXI. Germany started the war with 50 submarines. What if they had 100 by an increased submarine production instead of wasting material on outdated BBs like Bismarck or Scharnhorst? Type VII and IX were good boats at the start of the war, they'd have done the job.
VII were good boats,but were never designed for mid ocean 30 day plus patrols,without aircover,and needing to run on surface to charge batts,they were very vunerable.
Die HO-IX gab es noch nicht, als die Graf Zeppelin geplant und gebaut wurde. Man bediente sich des damals modernsten Jägers, der Me-109. Ich will nicht ausschließen, dass irgendwann im Verlauf des Krieges die HO-IX als Trägerflugzeug geplant war. Da der Flieger aber erst ab 45 einsatzbereit war und die Graf Zeppelin 43 gestrichen wurde, halte ich es für zweifelhaft. Wie ist denn der Titel von Hadelers Buch? Ich kenne nur das von Ulrich H.J. Israel.
A special mark of Me109 was produced to provide its fighter compliment,i believe they ended up being used in Norway on when Graf Zeppelin was cancelled .
Can't belive she was almost finished. But I used to say that with Hitler all is possible... mmhh!
A short nose monoplane, perhaps a FW-190 BMW-801radial engine plane? Or a Ta-152, modified?.
Floating storage ...
Hätte ich die deutsche Sprache nicht vergessen, da könte ich dir gut grüssen, aber ... I wan not to insult you, but say good and thanks! (not info available for me about GZ).
Oh, sieh mal einer an, das wußte ich noch garnicht. Aber vielleicht hat man ja auch schon das Tauwerk und die Takelage in den letzten Jahrzehnten ausgetauscht?
Das laufende Gut auf jeden Fall! Interessant auch: Die Gorch Fock gehört in bezug auf ihre Klassifikation zur Horst Wessel- Klasse. Da kommen wir nicht drum rum, sach ich mal...
Leider können wir uns nichts aussuchen. Aber den 10 DM- Schein würde ich schon gerne mit einbeziehen.
Übrigens auch interessant waren die Versuche der Russen mit der GZ. Wird leider wenig beachtet, könnte aber viel zu der Diskussion über den Nutzen gepanzerter Dechs beitragen.
Ich denke ähnliche Erfahrungen haben Briten und Amerikaner im Pazifik gemacht. Während die Briten ihre Flugdecks nach Kamikazeangriffen nur abkehren mussten, sind den Amis die halben Schiffe abgefackelt. Ich glaube das war Okinawa.
Außer der Topplastigkeit hatte der Deckspanzer den Nachteil, daß die Aufzüge zu schwer für die Hydraulik wurden und deshalb auch recht klein ausfielen. Auch sind Dampfkatapulte auf Panzerdecks schwer zu installieren. Die Startvorrichtung auf der GZ war denn auch recht umständlich und anfällig.
Die GZ konnte sich zwar in den Schußbereich Leichter Kreuzer wagen, verlor dann aber ihren Vorteil als Träger. Ein Schiff mit viel Licht und Schatten!
Es war halt der erste Versuch. Ich finde auch die 15cm Kasematten interessant. Wie bei einem Linienschiff. Ich glaube gelesen zu haben, dass sie Handelskrieg hätte führen sollen, wie die anderen Überwassereinheiten auch.
Linienschiffe (Schleswig- Holstein) hatten SK 38cm C 13, die gab es 1939 nicht mehr am Feind.
Aber es ist richtig: Die SK 15cm C34 hatte eine Reichweite von immerhin mehr als 25 km und eine Schußfolge von 10 Schuß pro Minute! Dieses schnelle Feuer konnte auch bei einer Elevation von 33 Grad aufrechterhalten werden, weil die Rohre zum Nachladen nicht abgesenkt werden mußten. Die konnten sich damals alles bis zum Leichten Kreuzer (Leander) vom Leibe halten.
Wenn ich den Vergleich mit einem Linienschiff, anhand der Kasematten ziehe, dann meine ich sicher nicht die Hauptartillerie. Die Schleswig-Holstein hatte eine HA von 28cm, während sie in den Kasematten Kaliber 17cm hatte. Aber darum geht es auch gar nicht. Kasematten haben nichts auf einem Flugzeugträger verloren. Die Flugzeuge sollen die Feinde vom Leib halten und nicht die Artillerie. Der Eisatz als Artillerieträger ist eine totale Fehlplanung.
Völlig korrekt. Stimmt auch mit der SH, habs gemerkt wie ich gepostet habe!
Ich habe übrigens auch keine Hinweise gefunden, wie man die Artillerie verwenden wollte. Wahrscheinlich wäre sie bald ausgebaut und durch Flak ersetzt worden.
Die GZ war eben noch kein echter Träger wie die Ark Royal. Dönitz hatte wohl Recht.
Ich glaube sie hatte die Kaga zum Vorbild. Deutsche Ingenieure durften die Kaga inspizieren, ich glaube das war 1935, vor ihrem Umbau. damals hatte die Kaga auch noch Kasematten.
like the battleships she would not have been allowed to roam the atlantic, we would have sunk her and it would have cost the lives of many brave sailors, it was better that she was not completed and hitler would not have allowed her to put to sea like with the Tirpitz, she would have spent the war in some secluded harbor and subject to attack by the royal navy and RAF as was the Tirpitz, she was a fine looking ship but just 1 carrier would not make any difference.
It was a good idea had Hitler not started the war. Once UK survived, Germany was destined to lose. Not taking England and Russia spelled doom.
PotatoGunsRule 1 day ago
Building carriers was unwise because the UBoat was Germany's most powerful maritime weapon.
Having said that, Hermann Goering was the Kreigmarine's worst enemy when it came to aviation at sea and if this ship had ever entered service the English would never rest until they sank it.
Ca1861 2 months ago
What's the music?
Exverlobter 3 months ago
@Exverlobter Keine Ahnung. Ich musste die von mir ausgewählte Musik ändern und ich habe dann das Erstbeste halbwegs Passende genommen.
DrGull1888 3 months ago
Imagine all the extra submarines Germany might have built had they not wasted time and materials on capital ships like battleships and this carrier. Instead of starting the war with 50 subs, they might have had 200-300 or more.
longlakeshore 5 months ago
Sadly for Germans, even the Graf Zepellin was completed at that time, it will not change tide of war.
declaration963 6 months ago
@declaration963 Indeed. Most likely she would have been hunted down like Bismarck or bombed in harbor like Tirpitz.
DrGull1888 6 months ago
This is a surprise. I'd heard of this aircraft carrier and always assumed that it didn't get off the drawing board. How on earth was it not completed? It's just as well that it wasn't, the whole course of the war may have differed as the Royal Navy was struggling as it was with Germany's submarine fleet
Having said that and looking at those pictures, she looks majestic and I feel a tinge of sadness that she wasn't finished. Just as well, though
Poopingbotham 6 months ago
@Poopingbotham Well, there was a struggle between Göring and the Navy High Command whether the Navy should get an own air branch or not. Furthermore at the begin of the war the construction was slowed down in favor for submarine construction and in 1943 it was completely stopped.
DrGull1888 6 months ago
It wouldve been interesting if the Graf Zeppelin was fully commissioned before the outbreak of WWII and sailing in the Atlantic and the only ships that I can think that would provide adequate protection from the Royal Navy, are the Scharhorst and the Gniesenau and also a screen of U-boats.
EvilFingers 7 months ago
@EvilFingers Well, it was planned to use her as raider. I dunno if the Kriegsmarine planned to use her in a bigger task force since those would hve been easier to spot.
DrGull1888 7 months ago
Reason the ship was never completed: "EVERYTHING THAT FLIES BELONGS TO ME!!"- Herman Goering
Peter43John 7 months ago
...it's ''christening'', not christianing.
midnitemover123 10 months ago
@midnitemover123 Yup.
DrGull1888 10 months ago
There was supposed to be three in the class
1, Graf Zeppelin
2, Peter Strasser
3, Paul von Hindenburg
Roddoss72 1 year ago
@Roddoss72 Sorry, you are mistaken about Hindenburg. They intended to name an H-class battleship after the fieldmarshall.
DrGull1888 1 year ago
@Roddoss72
That plan was later changed to a second, improved class after Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser were
completed. The next two carriers were to be named Baron von Richthofen and Max Immelmann.
hermitcrabbot 7 months ago
they could have finished
but they didnt.
bearhaulin120 1 year ago
the german navy z-plan needed 2-4 aircraft carriers to fight the british...carriers provide combat airpatrol...both bismarck and tirpitz were sunk without any air support to shoot down british swordfish biplane torpedo bombers! etc...
m60a3ttsmilwaukee 1 year ago
A 4 shaft setup.
That's rather unique for a major WW2 German ship.
What happened exactly she should have been completed along with Bismarck.
I also read that she was supposed to have a sister ship.
tamenga88 1 year ago
@tamenga88 Yes, Flugzeugträger B should have carried the name Peter Strasser after an airship captain. She was finished to the armour deck and should have been launched in April 1940. But she was scrapped the same year.
DrGull1888 1 year ago
@ Dr. Gull, you have an even better and larger collection of pix of Graf Zeppelin, than I. I saw the ship myself at the Hakenterasse in the early war years when my school was evacuated from Cologne to Aalbeck. Taking Pix was verboten" but I snuck a shot from far away and I still have somewhere. I built a 200 scale RC model of her and run it with other shipmodels: P. Eugen and Bismarck. I was lucky to be able to correspond with Capt. Hadeler her chief architect
chloe7829 2 years ago
Is it possible that you and the youtube user koelschwolf are the same person? No offence, just curiosity. You share common points of biography like being from Cologne, being evacuated and seeing the ship as a kid, the same hobby of model ship building, correspondance with Hadeler and having the same age.
Grüße aus Nürnberg
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Guilty as charged
chloe7829 2 years ago
Interesting history video with great backgroud music.
abelitro12 2 years ago
A very nice post, haunting image at the end....
xPureNRG007x 2 years ago
Most interesting. Thanks for posting.
vonBeavis 2 years ago
Europa and Breman,after escaping back to Germany in 39 sat out the rest of the war[Breman was torched by an arsonist in 41]50,000 tons 130,000shp 30 + knots 4 screws,what CV's they could of made
bv141a 2 years ago
The reason to Graf Zeppelin's cancellation was in fact the HMS Glorious. When HMS Glorious was shot down and sunk so easily by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Hitler believed that such a ship with no self defence would not enforce Kriegsmarine but would rather require much more effort to be protected by various units. And that was the last thing Kriegsmarine needed, as it would divide and weaken the forces.
muwatallis 2 years ago
Possible but I haven't heard of that. Nevertheless Graf Zeppelin was planned to run 33-34 knots. The idea was to outrun stronger surface units.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
@DrGull1888 isn't that where the saying"Stronger then faster ships, and faster than stronger ships" for the Graf Spee come in?
ualien42 1 year ago
@ualien42 Exactly. They tried this with every ship they constructed.
DrGull1888 1 year ago
One thing that is ironic, Germany had a planned tactic for carrier operations very similar to what the US used in the Pacific.
carsmasher 2 years ago
Interesting. What kind of tactics? I just heard of a possible use as a raider.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
From the reading I have done, the German Navy intended to use Battleships and Carriers together. If an enemy surface force materialized then the Battleships would go forward and the carriers would fall back but provide aircover. Since the German fleet was never completed (the Germany Navy would have not been ready for war until 1946) the carrier/battleship force never came to be.
carsmasher 2 years ago
Ah, I see. A classic use for carriers. I read, as I wrote before, that the Kriegsmarine wanted to use her as merchant raider. And I have no doubt that Graf Zeppelin would have been hunted down like Bismarck.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Just immagine IF they had this vessel in service.
I think germany would have won it, because they had great aircraft.
PitbullNL 2 years ago 2
@PitbullNL No the Rn was supplied with the best carrier aircraft gruman, F4F, F6F, Corsairs, Avengers stukas were obsolete in 1940, ME109 weak landing gear not even carrier capable.
jers59 1 year ago
@PitbullNL
Bismarck would have done more damage if they had a carrier with them.
G777GUN 1 year ago
Such a shame the soviets used her for target practice.
hunter7896 2 years ago
DrGull,
Do you know what are those grille-vents on the bottom of the hull?
ralsterV 2 years ago
I'm no technique buff but I pressume it's for the ballast tanks. Sea water was sucked in to give more stability.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
@ralster
Could be the so called "Frahmsche Schlingertanks".
They prevented tho rolling of the vessel letting water in and out.
Not absolutely sure, will look into my books.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Auf Dich ist halt Verlass.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Never abandon a friend.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Wenn alle untreu werden, so bleiben wir doch treu.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
...daß immer noch auf Erden
für euch ein Fähnlein sei...
robinhood48 2 years ago
I have the Revell 1/720 Graf Zeppelin, which I shall thoroughly enjoy building. I think it would have been equal to the Illustrious class (theoretically), as the Ju87 and Bf109 were already proven performers. Ju87 may have continued to be relevant as a naval attack plane into 1943 maybe (eventhough outmoded earlier in the war), as vs. shipping it was an excellent ordinance-delivery platform, Rudel himself sinking the Russian BB Marat with 1 well-placed bomb, while flying a Ju87B.
ralsterV 2 years ago
I also owned the Revell model kit. I only finished the hull. See the similarity to the original? When I moved out from my parents I divested myself of most of my model kits and presented Graf Zeppelin to a buddy who finished it.
I agree, she could have been a match for Illustrious-Class and her planes would have done their job until 42 or perhaps 43.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
2:30 from some views it looks like more like a cruise liner.
yepheth 2 years ago
Didnt Royal Navy have a small fleet stationed somewhere called 'Force Z'. What was the name of Repulse+PrWales in the Pacific, right before they were sunk?
ralsterV 2 years ago
Yes, Force Z under Admiral Phillips. He underestimated the Japanese airforce, didn't he?
DrGull1888 2 years ago
The Kriegsmarine plan was for a series of carriers, linked to battlefleets, and known as 'Z' Forces.
The big problem was Herman Goreing, who would not allow his aircraft or crews to equip the carriers without a say in naval policy. The row rumbled on, until the whole plan became unfeasible.
Dennysmock 2 years ago
Never heard of the Z force. But I heard of the Z-Plan, the plan of upgrading Kriegsmarine with 6 H-Class Batlleships, 4 O-Class battlecruisers, several new packet battleships and two carriers of Graf Zeppelin-Class.
You are absolutely right with Göring. His claim to master everthing which flies delayed the creation of a fleet air arm.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
The actual term Z Kraft(en) is used by Erich Raeder in his 1937 Vordere Planung (forward planning) document, (lectures at Wilemshaven). His great desire, to make all capital ships free from the bonds of escort ships, (destroyers), and so enable an 'all weather' series of fleets in being, were obstructed by Hitler, forcing Raeder to use his heavy units piecemeal, as mere surface raiders.
He saw the future threat was not with attacking hordes of destroyers, but the threat of the aeroplane.
Dennysmock 2 years ago
Graf Zeppelin would has been the the bigest and most powerfull aircraft carrier of WWII and Germany planned before WWII build many similar aircraft carriers after Graf Zeppelin. Germany had no resurses to finish that huge project. Graf Zeppelin was hugely larger than any aircraft carrier during WWII. It was simply huge, but it was never finished. Since 1943 it was impossible priorise that kind of massive navy project when Barbarossa after Stalingrad was turning towards military catastroph.
GBOY69GAY 2 years ago
I beg to differ. Japanese carriers like Kaga or Akagi were bigger. USS Essex, was as big as Graf Zeppelin, USS Midway and USS Saratoga were even bigger. But you are right, the Nazis planned to build more carriers and you are also right that the war situation after the failure of Barbarossa and the disaster of Stalingrad prevented a completition of Graf Zeppelin.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Okey, I agree with you that Kaga and Akagi were bigger. USS Essex was little bigger too. Then USS Midway and USS Saratoga never fought at WWII. USS Midway was built just when WWII was over and USS Saratoga is clearly younger. USS Midway and USS Saratoga were Korean War and Vietnam War era aircraft carriers. Both were out of WWII. Japan then had few really huge ships like the Battleship Yamato and aircraft carriers Kaga and Akagi. On the other side Graf Zeppelin was ordered 1935, USS Essex 1940.
GBOY69GAY 2 years ago
USS Saratoga (CV-3) was built in 1925 and sunk at Bikini in 1946. Perhaps you mistake her with Forrestal-Class Saratoga? USS Midway was built from 1943 to 1945. Therefore she was planned and built during WWII for WWII. Nevertheless she didn't participate in an operation during this war.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
DrGull1888
Okey, the USA´s navy really has had two USS Saratoga. The older USS Saratoga (CV-3) was built 1925, comissioned 1927. That another USS Saratoga (CV-60) was lainched 1955 and comissioned 1956. The older USS Saratoga (CV-3) was quite old aircraft carrier during WWII. It was little bigger than Graf Zeppelin. I think that Graf Zeppelin was more modern and better equipped. USS Saratoga´s first version (a battle cruiser) was ordered during WWI 1917 (changed to aircraft carrier 1922).
GBOY69GAY 2 years ago
Indeed a modern design with modern equippment. The casemattes were odd. But she would have been heavier and better protected than HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
@GBOY69GAY,
I think the "Saratoga" he is referring to is clearly the 2 prewar Lexington-class (built on BCruiser hulls, remember?). As completed, they had 8 x 8in guns, but carried over 80+planes, even with the more modern (non-biplane) planes of 1941/42--Definitely more 'powerful' (more planes) than Graf Zep, which would have had about 40 planes (Bf109T, Ju87T). There's simply no comparison to a late war Essex-class, because of the 90 planes of F4U, F6F, TBM quality. Taiho great design too.
ralsterV 2 years ago
if the Nazi s could finish that ; im sure about one thing. this carrier could be better than other variations. in everything nazi s did fighter plane,tanks,canons something better than others
sonsuz51 2 years ago
oh sry Kriegsmarineschiff
16891291616 2 years ago
Aber hast schon Recht mit KMS.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Comment removed
16891291616 2 years ago
"Kreigs Marine Schiff", so, so?
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Nice commentary and perspective on the Kriegsmarine's shortcomings. As is often the case, the German equipment may have performed well (GrafZep), but in the case of this weapons system that a CV is, it was never operational, so no war-related improvements in hardware, planes, procedures, damage control, etc...So it was a stillborn concept, in sharp contrast to the R&D of the Luftwaffe, Panzer forces, and the Unterseebooten, which all produced technically outstanding hardware.
ralsterV 2 years ago
Absolutely right, a stillborn concept. I think the German hardware had huge problems with being technically too fancy and being driven by wish thinking. Think of tanks like the King Tiger and the Maus which were slow as hell and an easy target for an airstrike. Think of the liability of jet engines and fuel shortages which hampered the Luftwaffe.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
With the benefit of hindsight its easy to see the designers of the surface fleet were trying to do to much with displacement in order to achieve an edge in quality over the older but more numerous ships of the RN . They should of concentrated on simple lean long legged cruisers to attack trade routes all over the vast areas of ocean that was the life blood of Britain and the Commonwealth .
iroscoe 2 years ago
Yes. Long-range cruisers would have been a higher threat. Also more submarines and mtbs would have been a higher threat.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Trying to build a balanced fleet like a mini version of the RN was a mistake .
iroscoe 2 years ago
They didn't know better. Most of the planners and flag officers learned their profession under Wilhelm II. and they adapted it with little improvements.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
One carrier alown could not have challanged England's naval supremecy. However if it had been commissioned before Operation Rheinübung and Hitler had waited for as many of Germany's capital ships to be operational for Rheinübung as possible (AKA Graf Zeppelin, Tirpitz, Gneisenau and Scharnhorst) he could have launched a much more credable force for operation Rheinübung and that single decision to only send two ships could have changed history.
Jackneill45 2 years ago
You never know. But an operation like you suggest would have created other problems for the Kriegsmarine, like fuel, a chance for the Royal Navy to vipe out the mightiest German ships with one strike and even if those ships had reached the Atlantic and caused a lot of trouble to the British convoy system, it wouldn't have brought Britain to her knees. When more of those operations had happened with the RN wearing off herself, then perhaps. But there is still the fuel problem.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
hitler was an stupid asshole, not suportting 100% this project, therefore he lost batttle of britain and the whole WW2
halonsox 2 years ago
I doubt that one ship, this ship, would have made a difference. Nevertheless Hitler's wrong decisions lost the war.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
ENORMES SCHIFF ABER DIE H SCHIFFE WARWN NOCH GRÖSSER;DIESES SCHIFF WAR AUCH DER SCHNESSTE FLUGZEUGTRÄGER;ÜBER 34 knoten,da können wir sehen auch da war deutschland besser!:DIE JAPANISCHEN JUNKEN HATTEN DOCH KEINE PANZERUNG WIR HATTEN DIE:
pullmannw100 2 years ago
Alleine die schönsten Entwürfe helfen nichts, wenn sie nicht ausgeführt werden.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
This with the Me262 Germany could have maintained total air superiority in the north sea. Was it a mistake to cancel the Zeppelin?
Armyof9000 2 years ago
Me262 came to production at a time when Germany's superiority was long gone. So it's doubtful that one single carrier, armed with Me262 would have made a difference.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
The He-280 jet fighter would have been a stop gap fighter whilst the Me-262 was developed. But infighting and politics got in the way...as usual in the 3rd Reich. The jet program, or the carrier program for that matter never had a sense of urgency until it was too late.
gaff2006 2 years ago
Sie könnten doch ein Video über Ihren Flugzeugträger drehen und selbiges auf youtube veröffentlichen?
Das mit Hadelers Buch ist zwar sehr nett, aber ich gebe meine Adresse selten und ungern heraus. Trotzdem vielen Dank.
Schöne Grüße
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Da stimme ich mit Hadeler überein. Ein Flugzeugträger hat Flugzeuge um sich den Feind vom Leib zu halten. Wozu dann Kasematten? Der Einsatz als Handelsstörer ist eine Fehlplanung und die Royal Navy hätte sich die Hände gerieben.
Das mit den Unstimmigkeiten zwischen Raeder und Göring habe ich in der Videobeschreibung erwähnt, bin aber nicht tiefer darauf eingegangen.
Schöne Grüße aus Nürnberg, Franken
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Ich glaube Ihnen das schon mit dem Buch. Ich habe auch so manchen alten Druck im Besitz, den man bei google kaum findet.
Ich fand das blos mit der HO-IX etwas weit hergeholt.
Interessant, das mit den Microfilmen. Wie kommt man an sowas heran? Vor allem über den Umbau der Seydlitz und der Fahrgastschiffe findet man eher selten etwas.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Nice vid :-)
I've read allot about this fascinating ship and it seems to me like it's builders persistens in making the ultimat warship, was the main reason it never went in to battle,
Allmost sadening :-)
Xigano1 2 years ago
Persistence in making the the ultimate warship? A nice euphemism for German misplanning.
Thanks for the compliment.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
That Ju87C (folding wing variant) looks really cool--reminds me of F4F and Avenger wing-fold mechanism which lays the wings back. Deadly plane in 1939-1941. Would have been VERY effective vs. shipping! (till '43)
ralsterV 2 years ago
Yes, possible.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
the ju87 was obsolete 1940-41
jers59 2 years ago
They fulfilled their purpose at the Eastern front.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
by 1942-43 they were easy pickings for yaks
jers59 2 years ago
Certainly. Without escort.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
fixed landing gear hurt it
jers59 2 years ago
I thought she capsized full of rail cars and loote while being towed to Russ?
bv141a 2 years ago
I'm sorry, no. But it's an interesting idea.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
German naval air prohibited after WW1?Such a dominating weapon was so overlooked,not typical of nazi Germany
bv141a 2 years ago
I think it had to do with human vanity. Goering demanded all flying vessels under his controll. He saw a naval airforce as a competitor to the Luftwaffe and as a cut to his power.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
if the germans had developed the CVE from existing frieghters,.instead of merchant raiders[steir]Such a low budjet weapon could of given Germany control of the worlds sea lanes.
bv141a 2 years ago
Germany had a war winning weapon under its nose,the CVE.If merchant raiders[atlantis]had bein fitted with flight decks and stuka's.Britians sea comunication would of bein in doubt
bv141a 2 years ago
Doubtful. Would Britain have watched Germany to construct CVEs in peacetime without reacting? Would Britain have allowed German CVEs to break into the Atlantic? Raiders like the Atlantis were easy to camouflage as freighters, CVEs are not. Any other German surface unit was hunted, sometimes with success. A large number of CVEs would have increased the fuel consumption of Kriegsmarine. Maybe the CVEs would have ended as fleet in being in a Norwegian fjord. More promissing was the submarine.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
the RN had neglected their air arm,both the IJN and USN had surpased the Brits in aircraft types,size and number of carriers.If germany was going to challenge the RN at sea,it wouldn't be with conventional warships.type XXI was to far in the future in 1939.Naval air would of upset the naval balance
bv141a 2 years ago
I don't doubt a fleet air arm to be decisive. In the North Sea CVEs wouldn't be suitable. And for the use of CVEs as raiders read my comment above. I didn't refer to type XXI. Germany started the war with 50 submarines. What if they had 100 by an increased submarine production instead of wasting material on outdated BBs like Bismarck or Scharnhorst? Type VII and IX were good boats at the start of the war, they'd have done the job.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
VII were good boats,but were never designed for mid ocean 30 day plus patrols,without aircover,and needing to run on surface to charge batts,they were very vunerable.
bv141a 2 years ago
Ach ja.
5 Punkte.
Das hatte ich fast vergessen.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Die Firma dankt.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Die HO-IX gab es noch nicht, als die Graf Zeppelin geplant und gebaut wurde. Man bediente sich des damals modernsten Jägers, der Me-109. Ich will nicht ausschließen, dass irgendwann im Verlauf des Krieges die HO-IX als Trägerflugzeug geplant war. Da der Flieger aber erst ab 45 einsatzbereit war und die Graf Zeppelin 43 gestrichen wurde, halte ich es für zweifelhaft. Wie ist denn der Titel von Hadelers Buch? Ich kenne nur das von Ulrich H.J. Israel.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
She was used as a target ship and was sunk in the Baltic.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
A special mark of Me109 was produced to provide its fighter compliment,i believe they ended up being used in Norway on when Graf Zeppelin was cancelled .
iroscoe 2 years ago
Oh yes. And Graf Zeppelin's Stukas were sent to Russia.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Perhaps the long cockpit-nose distance is a disvantage, because pilot needs a good vision of the deck.
Anyway, I didn't have any idea of GZ before seeing this video. Thanks.
I repeat: floating storage =-( ...
matamuelas 2 years ago
Can't belive she was almost finished. But I used to say that with Hitler all is possible... mmhh!
A short nose monoplane, perhaps a FW-190 BMW-801radial engine plane? Or a Ta-152, modified?.
Floating storage ...
Hätte ich die deutsche Sprache nicht vergessen, da könte ich dir gut grüssen, aber ... I wan not to insult you, but say good and thanks! (not info available for me about GZ).
matamuelas 2 years ago
Yeah, with the Nazis everything is possible. A floating storage, Göring's girt, the world's biggest dome in Berlin, etc.
Oh, and don't mind your German. Ich verstehe Dich recht gut, ob auf Deutsch oder Englisch.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Danke schön, aber es ist viel besser in "die andere Sprache".
See you
matamuelas 2 years ago
Utrum Iubet.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
;-/, eh?, wathever.
Sehen us pronto.
matamuelas 2 years ago
It's Latin and it means "At your leisure"
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Hahahaha!
Man, do you realize now what I was talking aobut? Hhahahaha!
English = safer for both!
Hahaha!
matamuelas 2 years ago
Agreed.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Ein wenig ist noch übrig von der GZ- das stehende Gut der Gorch Fock, welches eine Zeitlang in der GZ gelagert wurde.
Die GF wurde damals ebenso storniert!
robinhood48 2 years ago
Oh, sieh mal einer an, das wußte ich noch garnicht. Aber vielleicht hat man ja auch schon das Tauwerk und die Takelage in den letzten Jahrzehnten ausgetauscht?
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Das laufende Gut auf jeden Fall! Interessant auch: Die Gorch Fock gehört in bezug auf ihre Klassifikation zur Horst Wessel- Klasse. Da kommen wir nicht drum rum, sach ich mal...
robinhood48 2 years ago
Anstatt an Horst Wessel erinnere ich mich lieber an die Gorch Fock, als Motiv des 10 DM Scheins. Die Gorch Fock und Albrecht Dürer.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Leider können wir uns nichts aussuchen. Aber den 10 DM- Schein würde ich schon gerne mit einbeziehen.
Übrigens auch interessant waren die Versuche der Russen mit der GZ. Wird leider wenig beachtet, könnte aber viel zu der Diskussion über den Nutzen gepanzerter Dechs beitragen.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Ich denke ähnliche Erfahrungen haben Briten und Amerikaner im Pazifik gemacht. Während die Briten ihre Flugdecks nach Kamikazeangriffen nur abkehren mussten, sind den Amis die halben Schiffe abgefackelt. Ich glaube das war Okinawa.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Außer der Topplastigkeit hatte der Deckspanzer den Nachteil, daß die Aufzüge zu schwer für die Hydraulik wurden und deshalb auch recht klein ausfielen. Auch sind Dampfkatapulte auf Panzerdecks schwer zu installieren. Die Startvorrichtung auf der GZ war denn auch recht umständlich und anfällig.
Die GZ konnte sich zwar in den Schußbereich Leichter Kreuzer wagen, verlor dann aber ihren Vorteil als Träger. Ein Schiff mit viel Licht und Schatten!
robinhood48 2 years ago
Es war halt der erste Versuch. Ich finde auch die 15cm Kasematten interessant. Wie bei einem Linienschiff. Ich glaube gelesen zu haben, dass sie Handelskrieg hätte führen sollen, wie die anderen Überwassereinheiten auch.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Linienschiffe (Schleswig- Holstein) hatten SK 38cm C 13, die gab es 1939 nicht mehr am Feind.
Aber es ist richtig: Die SK 15cm C34 hatte eine Reichweite von immerhin mehr als 25 km und eine Schußfolge von 10 Schuß pro Minute! Dieses schnelle Feuer konnte auch bei einer Elevation von 33 Grad aufrechterhalten werden, weil die Rohre zum Nachladen nicht abgesenkt werden mußten. Die konnten sich damals alles bis zum Leichten Kreuzer (Leander) vom Leibe halten.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Wenn ich den Vergleich mit einem Linienschiff, anhand der Kasematten ziehe, dann meine ich sicher nicht die Hauptartillerie. Die Schleswig-Holstein hatte eine HA von 28cm, während sie in den Kasematten Kaliber 17cm hatte. Aber darum geht es auch gar nicht. Kasematten haben nichts auf einem Flugzeugträger verloren. Die Flugzeuge sollen die Feinde vom Leib halten und nicht die Artillerie. Der Eisatz als Artillerieträger ist eine totale Fehlplanung.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Völlig korrekt. Stimmt auch mit der SH, habs gemerkt wie ich gepostet habe!
Ich habe übrigens auch keine Hinweise gefunden, wie man die Artillerie verwenden wollte. Wahrscheinlich wäre sie bald ausgebaut und durch Flak ersetzt worden.
Die GZ war eben noch kein echter Träger wie die Ark Royal. Dönitz hatte wohl Recht.
robinhood48 2 years ago
Ich glaube sie hatte die Kaga zum Vorbild. Deutsche Ingenieure durften die Kaga inspizieren, ich glaube das war 1935, vor ihrem Umbau. damals hatte die Kaga auch noch Kasematten.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
like the battleships she would not have been allowed to roam the atlantic, we would have sunk her and it would have cost the lives of many brave sailors, it was better that she was not completed and hitler would not have allowed her to put to sea like with the Tirpitz, she would have spent the war in some secluded harbor and subject to attack by the royal navy and RAF as was the Tirpitz, she was a fine looking ship but just 1 carrier would not make any difference.
fairclought7 2 years ago
No doubt on that.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
This ship I think had a very advanced steam catapult.
elswick1542 2 years ago
Oh yeah. It's an ancestor for those used on the Nimitz-Class.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
Excellent 5*****
STATIONO 2 years ago
Danke sehr.
DrGull1888 2 years ago
True. Pure stupidity.
DrGull1888 2 years ago