Western Orthodox Hymnody

[Kevin41581]

Call be a buff old traditionalist, but I do not understand all the walking around during the offertory prayers. Also, what makes no sense, sometimes a genuflection to the Blessed sacrament, sometimes a bow, and often just walking by. Is this the normal liturgical standard expected in western rite parishes?

[Toneytc]

@Kevin41581 Thanks for your interest in and concern for customs in Western rite. I'm not sure what is at issue in respect of walking during the offertory prayers, I suppose it is sometimes necessary to ambulate from one point to another given what responsibilities the individual may have at a given point in the service and so on. I do believe any unnecessary moving about would be frowned on at any time during Holy Mass. continued below.

[Toneytc]

@Kevin41581As to genuflecting vs bows; I think it may be one of two things. For the altar party, it might not be req'ir'd to genuflect, once they have initially processd in and are around the altar, unless the sacrament is exposd or the gifts have been consecrated. Just hazarding a guess.

[3633austin]

We sang this same hymn today (4th sunday of advent) in a Roman Catholic Church today. It is from the Divine Liturgy of St. James. One of my favorites.

[Toneytc]

@WordOrthodox Thank you, fellow Orthodox. Blessings to you.

[Xenogeek2]

If memory serves, the Liturgy of St James ("Let all mortal flesh keep silence . . .") was replaced by the Cherubimic Hymn by order of Emperor Theodosius in 587 AD. Apparently that imperial edict never made its way to the British Isles :)

[hillibillycat56]

if i'm not mistaken, the cherubim hymn doesn't seem to be part of any western liturgy.

[Toneytc]

@hillibillycat56 not being an expert, I can't really say for certain, but not as far as I know.

[2Nikolaos3]

I like their rhythms. very nice

[2Nikolaos3]

wow the first one was very beautiful

[Toneytc]

@2Nikolaos3 yes one of my very favorite hymns.

[Toneytc]

@2Nikolaos3 yes one of my very favorite hymns.

[Toneytc]

@2Nikolaos3 yes one of my favorites.

[readermichael]

I am a supporter of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy. I also love the tune "Picardy". However, I am afraid that Moultrie's version of "Let all mortal flesh" is not a direct translation but is a paraphrase. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that, due to the doctrinal arguments in his Anglican setting, he has omitted some of the orders of angels along with the imagery of the Christ coming forth to be sacrificed. I am not sure we should import... (cont'd)

[readermichael]

The result of such disputes into Holy Orthodoxy. The cherubikon from the Liturgy of St James is beautiful but I think it would be better if somebody involved in the Western Rite were to produce a new, Orthodox translation, and perhaps set it to an easy plainsong melody. That would be lovely.

[Toneytc]

Thanks for the comment, and for the support. Just off the cuff, not being familiar with the original, I would say that there is not intended to be any doctrinal weight attributed to the adoption of this particular rendering/translation by Western Orthodox. No doubt Westrn Orthodx affirm the same Cherubikon as Byzantines. It was most probably just convenient to use a beautiful and familiar setting for a hymn from an Orthodox context.

[framarais]

It would be good to remember that the Cherubikon as we know it was at first a non-fixed hymn. It became ordinary in the Liturgy around the end of the 5th century. The Syrian form pre-dates the Byzabtine hymn. Both are used by the Byzantines although the Syrian form is used rarely. Why not use both.

[framarais]

Very good comment. And the work has been done by Maxime Kovalesky. It is used in France by ECOF, and has been translated into English and adapted by Prof. William Carragan of Troy. There is no need to use Anglican re-treads in the Western Orthodox Movement..

[Lizvandee]

Where is this church?

Lovely hymns!

Thank-you,

Liz

[Toneytc]

Our Lady of Walsingham is in Mesquite TX.

Thanks