I'm not tring to bother but look, if the majority makes the law then how do they get changed, so we must endure years and years of "LEGAL Punishment" before we can establish a mayority to change the law? i understand that its improbable today in America, but where tyranny is the law revolution is order.
I'm amazed you can't see that what you're saying is entirely fascist. You don't want freedom of speech or an equitable view of society, you want your view, your law. Thats a dictatorship and as divorced from freedom as an absolute monarchy, which your forefathers rejected.
lol, i never once said anything about not having freedom of speech or an equitable view of society. But answere me this, because society says i have to hate fagets in this country does it mean i have to, because the majority says to do something it dosen't make it right. BTW a dictatorship and tyranny are two different things, even though my views have nothing to do with a dictatorship.
So here we are, its ok because "Democracy" says its ok, its ok because "THE LAW" says its ok? It is infact this that is one of Democracy flaws, Tyranny by the masses is no different than tyranny from an idividual.
Now in the last bits of your video I have to address you about. About laws and the Democratic system, For one, the "law" is not absolute, would you say that because it was the law back then that it was ok or understandable for blacks to be disciminated against? It was infact those laws that enticed people to do their own justice out of hate toward these people, why? Because the "law" makes it ok?
I see what you mean, but were then should guns like that be stored for protection if not in the house? Maybe a shed, what do you think. Also, I see your point about the Russian Revolution, it was in the making for 30 years before it came out full blown, but to you and me it may have been along time ago and what not, but to Lenin it was happening right then and their, a revolution with out guns is no revolution, how many revolutions in the world by "peaceful" means have worked?
Very good video, I appreciate as always the UK intellectual approach to issues. It seems a lot of Europeans I encounter on this youtube are 'usually' very respectful. There are respectable people in America but not as many I'm afraid. This issue is like you said more of a culture issue with Americans than anything else. Those of us that have glanced over any history book can at least gather a nations people unarmed can be controlled far 'easier' than one that isnt. Nice video again. :)
Well, as I said in your other video (and I know you don't really like comments section discussions so I'll keep this short, hopefully) I own guns for self-protection from criminals not the state (as I see that as rather futile) but in regards to laws you don't agree with, there are already many I do not agree with (the Patriot Act legislation comes to mind)
I also do not agree with Obama's universal mandatory federal service or his GIVE act (forcing young students into federal charity work if their schools want funding), I do not agree with free-speech zones, arresting of peaceful protesters, police brutality or the militarization of the police, I do not agree with the creation of internment camps in many states pre-build in case of riot...
I do not agree with the fact that we have been stripped of our first, third, fifth, sixth and thirteenth amendment rights (and perhaps soon our second will follow). I'm not sure what one can do about that displeasure with the govt, Im not sure at this point there is anything one can do.
The American military is the strongest in the world and I do not forsee any situation in which the American people can rise up and successfully fight with them on the opposing side. I do believe America is becoming less and less of a democracy (it never really was one anyway, its a Republic, but you know what I mean)
Just one more thought (lol I cant help myself) but in regards to my previous post, when your rights, freedoms and personal liberties are being taken away by your government and there is nothing you can do to stop it, is that not already tyrannical?
I do not think that one must have a dictator or president for life in place for a democracy to fall.
their generaly revolvers with high caliber and they have an extended barrel to increase the range and acuracy
alot of people use in bear country or in survival kits because they are eaier to carry then a rifle some hunters use them because they are more of a challenge
You make quite a lot of good points, and as usual, I find myself more or less agreeing with you.
But from the context of an expat who spent quite a while living in the UK, I think you are dead wrong about the UK being great on protesting. The majority of the British populace, in my experience, is astoundingly, almost offensively apathetic.
You clearly aren't, and perhaps the fact that you care makes you want to perceive others as caring for your own sanity. But I think you're mistaken. (cont)
That said, I do love quite a lot of the attitudes in the UK, and there is a lot to like. But as far as political involvement, especially in the last 50 years, the UK is almost dangerously disengaged.
I think it's quite a shame since it's such a great country, but I see huge potential for tyranny to run rampant in the UK at some point in the near future, and indeed most of the EU (which seems to be infected with a similar, if slightly less severe apathy).
all little steps to tyranny, but the problem is to figure out the cut off point to know when to start the revolution. Tothematresses proposes instead to go along with the democratic porcess to stop tyranny law by law, instead of stupidly grabbing our guns and resisting. (fake believes the process is a sham, so that doesn't cut it.) So life isn't 'really that bad in america', but it has the potential to be.
If the US had 'gun inspectors' from the state like you have there. As they tried to get into peoples houses enough would be beaten up or shot that the state would stop the inspections. Then the state would have to decide to try and forcibly confiscate peoples guns or leave them the fuck alone. So maybe you Brits are pussies and have let the government take too many liberties. Kind of torpedoes your argument.
Duncan, it is mediocre thinking like yours that is eating away at our great country like a cancer. The British are not pussies. Do you insult them like this just because, unlike you, they choose not to engage in embarrassing and self-righteous behaviour in order to describe a concept which is intellectually dishonest? And that's putting in nicely. Stop slapping the Brits in the face, you dumb shits.
Shut up you're not going to torpedo my argument, which you never address, with schoolyard insults. So either attack my argument or as the brits would say 'bugger off'. My point perhaps was a bit crude but the point stands. Some Americans probably would be willing to resist government inspection of their firearms with force therefore no such thing exists. Whereas the brits to some degree are more subservient to government and allow it. That was my observation.
the government has guns for the purpose of controlling us. why shouldn't we have our own guns in our own houses just in case we need to protect ourselves?
No, the legitimacy for state weapons is granted by the population as a means to protect the police force. All you have to do is get this law changed by protesting. Killing people is neither effective nor necessary.
Of course the more guns on the streets, the stronger the police argument for having weapons, the more reason you feel you need a gun and so on in a vicious circle.
and the legitimacy for private weapons is granted by the population to protect the themselves. i kinda don't think that peaceful protesting is actually taken seriously by most oppressive regimes. just having an armed population can be enough to prevent a government from getting out of hand.
yeah, they'll use whatever they can to justify keeping themselves in power. as long as they have guns, which btw they don't always use to protect us from the bad guys, we should keep ours as well.
i would think that the more guns we have in the hands of citizens, the less necessary a police force would really be. you know, instead of having cops, who are just as susceptable to getting pissed and abusing their power as any other person, have armed citizens who know their rights and are willing to defend them... POWER TO THE PEOPLE!... yup.
The UK wouldnt know a protest if it was hit with a Molotov. Nothing since the Poll Tax riots have been worth a thing. The G20 was an embarrassment; penned in protesters, including innocent members of the public, not allowed to leave them without consenting to a photo and submission of private details. The UK is a Police state. Complain? Public order arrest, DNA retained for life. Civil liberties have been washed down the drain. Nothing pro-liberty law has passed in 20 years other than the HRA.
As a Yank who has moved here and who now enjoys permanent resident status here in the UK, let me tell you that I find that the UK government respects my individual rights far better than Uncle Sam ever did. NHS may not be perfect, but they treated me when I was sick. US A&E turned me away and left me to get very sick, because I didn't have proper insurance.
I have nothing against the NHS, & Im not sure how you insinuated I did; its a fine institution fought tooth and nail back when the UK knew how to fight, & worth every penny, may it last another 60~! While the US has a bill of rights, the UK has flash in the pan Eton-boys pissing on the rights of the people.
One Nation Under CCTV, vegetating at Mrs. Goodys burial while being detained without trial for 28 days under 1984s PACE Act definition of reasonable suspicion. You couldnt make it up.
1m people marched against the war in Iraq, 500k marched in support of fox hunting, 200k agianst trident renewal; and OK they all failed but they show political will. The G20 march was a joke because there was no single cause. As for the Eton boys bit I suggest you look at our MPs backgrounds, almost none of them went to Eton, and most weren't even privatley educated. I totally agree about 28days and CCTV but you're plumb wrong if you believe no on else cares.
Its highly unlikely because: who would enforce these tyranny laws and killings against their own people, friends and fellows? No one. So it wont happen any time soon, unless there is a massive brainwashed clone army at area 51, which is unlikely! or.. is it :)
you say pistols are untraceable, well, what about the fully automatic weapons or radioactive plutonium, or anthrax, etc.
there always will be something restricted when you can make the exact same argument...
I'm not familiar with the exact situation, but apparently handguns are too small and easily concealable for the police to deal with them in the light of the tremendous hooliganism/gang problem that exists in your country...
so why wouldn't the society come together and decide to ban them?
This being an intellectual exercise for you, shouldn't you have tried to avoid "Godwin's Law"?
I think fakesagan's point may have been that a rifle doesn't give you a vote, but will ensure it's being heard. I may have interpreted it wrong though.
I agree with you, I don't think a proper democracy exist, nor can it exist effectively in any state.
However you're absolutely right about the notion that arming oneself can aid democracy.
I particularly believe FakeSagan is being naive with this notion. It's typical of those who had never had to arm themselves or face arms in defense against there government. I think you've elaborated my thoughts to some degree.
There is still a legitimate reason for having guns in the US, however I don't know if it's necessary that it has to be an AK.
There's a tradition in US - Rights are retracted by the government by way of precedence. If you allow the retraction of the 2nd amendment, It can set precedence for the rest of the rights. Owning a gun is essentially just symbolism & or an assertion of rights.
However this notion is not absolute. There are alternative solutions to restrain the government.
That's why "true" democracy is such a bad method of governance. It's rule of the mob, and the mob is just as dangerous as a tyrant. In a democracy, 49% of the people are beholden to 51%.
In other words, as the minority I don't really care if you think the gun in my house is inappropriate. What I'm more interested in is the preservation of a society where 100% of the people are free.
That's why America is a Republic foremost, to protect the minority from the majority.
But hold on, what do you mean free if you can change the law against the wishes of the majority using your gun? The republic nature of the US is neither here nor there (and by the way the UK is also a republic, twice)
If the majority of the people vote that tall white guys (me), are to be second class citizens, then of course I'm not interested in that law. It doesn't matter if it's the majority vote, it's not free. They voted to restrict freedoms, and that's what I oppose.
Gun ownership is no different fundamentally, except that it's the freedom the protects all the other freedoms when push comes to shove.
That's why the Republic is relevant. Because it mitigates a mob rule from taking it's own freedom.
I'm not tring to bother but look, if the majority makes the law then how do they get changed, so we must endure years and years of "LEGAL Punishment" before we can establish a mayority to change the law? i understand that its improbable today in America, but where tyranny is the law revolution is order.
JIbaro386 2 years ago
I'm amazed you can't see that what you're saying is entirely fascist. You don't want freedom of speech or an equitable view of society, you want your view, your law. Thats a dictatorship and as divorced from freedom as an absolute monarchy, which your forefathers rejected.
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
lol, i never once said anything about not having freedom of speech or an equitable view of society. But answere me this, because society says i have to hate fagets in this country does it mean i have to, because the majority says to do something it dosen't make it right. BTW a dictatorship and tyranny are two different things, even though my views have nothing to do with a dictatorship.
JIbaro386 2 years ago
???
JIbaro386 2 years ago
So here we are, its ok because "Democracy" says its ok, its ok because "THE LAW" says its ok? It is infact this that is one of Democracy flaws, Tyranny by the masses is no different than tyranny from an idividual.
JIbaro386 2 years ago
Now in the last bits of your video I have to address you about. About laws and the Democratic system, For one, the "law" is not absolute, would you say that because it was the law back then that it was ok or understandable for blacks to be disciminated against? It was infact those laws that enticed people to do their own justice out of hate toward these people, why? Because the "law" makes it ok?
JIbaro386 2 years ago
Laws are changed through democratic process not through the barrel of a gun
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
I see what you mean, but were then should guns like that be stored for protection if not in the house? Maybe a shed, what do you think. Also, I see your point about the Russian Revolution, it was in the making for 30 years before it came out full blown, but to you and me it may have been along time ago and what not, but to Lenin it was happening right then and their, a revolution with out guns is no revolution, how many revolutions in the world by "peaceful" means have worked?
JIbaro386 2 years ago
bill is back.
popebenadict16 2 years ago
Watcha - wondered if you were still about - hope all is well with you
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
i did ask mr doeman what happened to you a couple of years ago he said he didnt know.
popebenadict16 2 years ago
Very good video, I appreciate as always the UK intellectual approach to issues. It seems a lot of Europeans I encounter on this youtube are 'usually' very respectful. There are respectable people in America but not as many I'm afraid. This issue is like you said more of a culture issue with Americans than anything else. Those of us that have glanced over any history book can at least gather a nations people unarmed can be controlled far 'easier' than one that isnt. Nice video again. :)
PoopyPaul 2 years ago
Well, as I said in your other video (and I know you don't really like comments section discussions so I'll keep this short, hopefully) I own guns for self-protection from criminals not the state (as I see that as rather futile) but in regards to laws you don't agree with, there are already many I do not agree with (the Patriot Act legislation comes to mind)
gerberakasbah 2 years ago
I also do not agree with Obama's universal mandatory federal service or his GIVE act (forcing young students into federal charity work if their schools want funding), I do not agree with free-speech zones, arresting of peaceful protesters, police brutality or the militarization of the police, I do not agree with the creation of internment camps in many states pre-build in case of riot...
gerberakasbah 2 years ago
I do not agree with the fact that we have been stripped of our first, third, fifth, sixth and thirteenth amendment rights (and perhaps soon our second will follow). I'm not sure what one can do about that displeasure with the govt, Im not sure at this point there is anything one can do.
gerberakasbah 2 years ago
The American military is the strongest in the world and I do not forsee any situation in which the American people can rise up and successfully fight with them on the opposing side. I do believe America is becoming less and less of a democracy (it never really was one anyway, its a Republic, but you know what I mean)
Sorry, I guess that wasn't really too short.
gerberakasbah 2 years ago
Just one more thought (lol I cant help myself) but in regards to my previous post, when your rights, freedoms and personal liberties are being taken away by your government and there is nothing you can do to stop it, is that not already tyrannical?
I do not think that one must have a dictator or president for life in place for a democracy to fall.
gerberakasbah 2 years ago
are hunting hand guns legal in teh UK
itshouldbereversed 2 years ago
No handguns, except those used by slaughtermen and vets are legal. Whats a hunting hand gun?
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
their generaly revolvers with high caliber and they have an extended barrel to increase the range and acuracy
alot of people use in bear country or in survival kits because they are eaier to carry then a rifle some hunters use them because they are more of a challenge
itshouldbereversed 2 years ago
You make quite a lot of good points, and as usual, I find myself more or less agreeing with you.
But from the context of an expat who spent quite a while living in the UK, I think you are dead wrong about the UK being great on protesting. The majority of the British populace, in my experience, is astoundingly, almost offensively apathetic.
You clearly aren't, and perhaps the fact that you care makes you want to perceive others as caring for your own sanity. But I think you're mistaken. (cont)
GonzoNomad 2 years ago
That said, I do love quite a lot of the attitudes in the UK, and there is a lot to like. But as far as political involvement, especially in the last 50 years, the UK is almost dangerously disengaged.
I think it's quite a shame since it's such a great country, but I see huge potential for tyranny to run rampant in the UK at some point in the near future, and indeed most of the EU (which seems to be infected with a similar, if slightly less severe apathy).
GonzoNomad 2 years ago
If they made guns legal in England the criminals wouldnt register theirs.
I stole dont understand what 'chains of oppression' fakesagan finds himself languishing under. Is his life really that bad in america?
elitemathlete 2 years ago
all little steps to tyranny, but the problem is to figure out the cut off point to know when to start the revolution. Tothematresses proposes instead to go along with the democratic porcess to stop tyranny law by law, instead of stupidly grabbing our guns and resisting. (fake believes the process is a sham, so that doesn't cut it.) So life isn't 'really that bad in america', but it has the potential to be.
xoxgodofgodsgodxx 2 years ago
@xox - yes, a very succinct summary
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
Bah, just rub in my obvious inability to summarize sythesize the points of both videos to answer this fellows question.
(But really, I was the worst person here to do it. )
xoxgodofgodsgodxx 2 years ago
I think this is a healthy and entirely reasonable discussion. I think it's great that you and Fakesagan can talk like this.
roentgen571 2 years ago
If the US had 'gun inspectors' from the state like you have there. As they tried to get into peoples houses enough would be beaten up or shot that the state would stop the inspections. Then the state would have to decide to try and forcibly confiscate peoples guns or leave them the fuck alone. So maybe you Brits are pussies and have let the government take too many liberties. Kind of torpedoes your argument.
duncan36 2 years ago
You've quite clearly not listened to what my argument is, if you had listened you'd realise that your statement is moronic
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
Duncan, it is mediocre thinking like yours that is eating away at our great country like a cancer. The British are not pussies. Do you insult them like this just because, unlike you, they choose not to engage in embarrassing and self-righteous behaviour in order to describe a concept which is intellectually dishonest? And that's putting in nicely. Stop slapping the Brits in the face, you dumb shits.
mbarbarelli 2 years ago
Shut up you're not going to torpedo my argument, which you never address, with schoolyard insults. So either attack my argument or as the brits would say 'bugger off'. My point perhaps was a bit crude but the point stands. Some Americans probably would be willing to resist government inspection of their firearms with force therefore no such thing exists. Whereas the brits to some degree are more subservient to government and allow it. That was my observation.
duncan36 2 years ago
the government has guns for the purpose of controlling us. why shouldn't we have our own guns in our own houses just in case we need to protect ourselves?
TheDastardlyDildo 2 years ago
No, the legitimacy for state weapons is granted by the population as a means to protect the police force. All you have to do is get this law changed by protesting. Killing people is neither effective nor necessary.
Of course the more guns on the streets, the stronger the police argument for having weapons, the more reason you feel you need a gun and so on in a vicious circle.
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
and the legitimacy for private weapons is granted by the population to protect the themselves. i kinda don't think that peaceful protesting is actually taken seriously by most oppressive regimes. just having an armed population can be enough to prevent a government from getting out of hand.
yeah, they'll use whatever they can to justify keeping themselves in power. as long as they have guns, which btw they don't always use to protect us from the bad guys, we should keep ours as well.
TheDastardlyDildo 2 years ago
i would think that the more guns we have in the hands of citizens, the less necessary a police force would really be. you know, instead of having cops, who are just as susceptable to getting pissed and abusing their power as any other person, have armed citizens who know their rights and are willing to defend them... POWER TO THE PEOPLE!... yup.
TheDastardlyDildo 2 years ago
let's all just sit around and watch as our rights are gradually taken away.
TheDastardlyDildo 2 years ago
The UK wouldnt know a protest if it was hit with a Molotov. Nothing since the Poll Tax riots have been worth a thing. The G20 was an embarrassment; penned in protesters, including innocent members of the public, not allowed to leave them without consenting to a photo and submission of private details. The UK is a Police state. Complain? Public order arrest, DNA retained for life. Civil liberties have been washed down the drain. Nothing pro-liberty law has passed in 20 years other than the HRA.
AdministrativeLaws 2 years ago 3
Bollocks
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
As a Yank who has moved here and who now enjoys permanent resident status here in the UK, let me tell you that I find that the UK government respects my individual rights far better than Uncle Sam ever did. NHS may not be perfect, but they treated me when I was sick. US A&E turned me away and left me to get very sick, because I didn't have proper insurance.
mbarbarelli 2 years ago
I have nothing against the NHS, & Im not sure how you insinuated I did; its a fine institution fought tooth and nail back when the UK knew how to fight, & worth every penny, may it last another 60~! While the US has a bill of rights, the UK has flash in the pan Eton-boys pissing on the rights of the people.
One Nation Under CCTV, vegetating at Mrs. Goodys burial while being detained without trial for 28 days under 1984s PACE Act definition of reasonable suspicion. You couldnt make it up.
AdministrativeLaws 2 years ago 4
1m people marched against the war in Iraq, 500k marched in support of fox hunting, 200k agianst trident renewal; and OK they all failed but they show political will. The G20 march was a joke because there was no single cause. As for the Eton boys bit I suggest you look at our MPs backgrounds, almost none of them went to Eton, and most weren't even privatley educated. I totally agree about 28days and CCTV but you're plumb wrong if you believe no on else cares.
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
i'TS HIGHLY UNLIKELY BECAUSE WE ARE ARMED.
lowendentheogen 2 years ago
Exactly!
fiacharrey 2 years ago
Its highly unlikely because: who would enforce these tyranny laws and killings against their own people, friends and fellows? No one. So it wont happen any time soon, unless there is a massive brainwashed clone army at area 51, which is unlikely! or.. is it :)
fuunguus 2 years ago
you say pistols are untraceable, well, what about the fully automatic weapons or radioactive plutonium, or anthrax, etc.
there always will be something restricted when you can make the exact same argument...
I'm not familiar with the exact situation, but apparently handguns are too small and easily concealable for the police to deal with them in the light of the tremendous hooliganism/gang problem that exists in your country...
so why wouldn't the society come together and decide to ban them?
CaptainKhrenov 2 years ago
Wow. The last part was amazing.
Svankmajer 2 years ago
This being an intellectual exercise for you, shouldn't you have tried to avoid "Godwin's Law"?
I think fakesagan's point may have been that a rifle doesn't give you a vote, but will ensure it's being heard. I may have interpreted it wrong though.
Good video.
kmi187 2 years ago
:) well its the internet, someone had to bring it up :P - hopefully I did it in as a self aware manner as possible
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
I agree with you, I don't think a proper democracy exist, nor can it exist effectively in any state.
However you're absolutely right about the notion that arming oneself can aid democracy.
I particularly believe FakeSagan is being naive with this notion. It's typical of those who had never had to arm themselves or face arms in defense against there government. I think you've elaborated my thoughts to some degree.
lourj3883 2 years ago
There is still a legitimate reason for having guns in the US, however I don't know if it's necessary that it has to be an AK.
There's a tradition in US - Rights are retracted by the government by way of precedence. If you allow the retraction of the 2nd amendment, It can set precedence for the rest of the rights. Owning a gun is essentially just symbolism & or an assertion of rights.
However this notion is not absolute. There are alternative solutions to restrain the government.
lourj3883 2 years ago
Good video.
That's why "true" democracy is such a bad method of governance. It's rule of the mob, and the mob is just as dangerous as a tyrant. In a democracy, 49% of the people are beholden to 51%.
In other words, as the minority I don't really care if you think the gun in my house is inappropriate. What I'm more interested in is the preservation of a society where 100% of the people are free.
That's why America is a Republic foremost, to protect the minority from the majority.
Thank you
kainsilkfist 2 years ago
But hold on, what do you mean free if you can change the law against the wishes of the majority using your gun? The republic nature of the US is neither here nor there (and by the way the UK is also a republic, twice)
Tothemattresses 2 years ago
If the majority of the people vote that tall white guys (me), are to be second class citizens, then of course I'm not interested in that law. It doesn't matter if it's the majority vote, it's not free. They voted to restrict freedoms, and that's what I oppose.
Gun ownership is no different fundamentally, except that it's the freedom the protects all the other freedoms when push comes to shove.
That's why the Republic is relevant. Because it mitigates a mob rule from taking it's own freedom.
kainsilkfist 2 years ago