Do Jehovah's Witnesses need to be born again?

[rachelbinto]

@sbgrox11 The WT says that being born again is only needed for a heavenly leadership role, but the Bible says we are all spiritually dead and all in need of rebirth(Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:11-14) . Also, the creation that is subjected to frustration not of it's own will is the physical creation suffering from the curse in Gen 3:17-19. In the new heavens and the new earth that curse will be released.(Is 55:12-13; 65:25)

[rachelbinto]

@sbgrox11 Really, after 2 or 3 comments on the other video you still don't believe the trinity? Well, I am glad at least that you do concur on this point. Tomorrow a Jehovah's Witness is coming to discuss this very issue with me.

[sunshineuk1965]

Hello, there's an excellent video on this subject watch

?v=M9DS6x9yZUQ

the title is "Born again" ... what does it mean? part 1of 4

Otherwise I'll be happy to help you gain a correct understanding of what it means to be BORN AGAIN - just go to my forum (see my channel) or contact Jehovah's Witnesses directly at 3 w's watchtower d o t o r g

[rachelbinto]

@sunshineuk1965 Thanks, but I'll stick with the scriptures and scriptures alone. Being born again is only necessary if you want to see the kingdom of God or have anything to do with God for eternity. You can live according to the flesh or according to the Spirit, but only if the Spirit of God dwells in you. An organization cannot save you; only Jesus Christ can do that.

[sunshineuk1965]

@rachelbinto

Okay no problem - I respect your decision. If you ever change your mind just click on THREE Ws Watchtower D O T org

or click on my CHANNEL and follow the links on the left to MY FORUM where there are plenty of answers for those that are curious about the beliefs of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

There are also downloads of articles available on j w d o t o r g

Best wishes

Sunshine

[tidingsbearer]

Hello to you

I found this in Bible:

2John

" 9. Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son."

Here I am inviting you to verify if what you know about Jesus taking the power in Heavens is "in the teaching of Christ" ... or not..... check it at my website .

Be blessed !

Greetings.

[thebibleanswerman1]

Romans 8:15-17 has absolutely nothing to do with the price of tea in China!! Likewise WHERE does it say in this verse only 144K will go to heaven?? Unbelievable!! ugh!! (pounding my head against the wall)....

[howdytheresir]

This is such a great video!So much better organized than mine.;-)

[rachelbinto]

@howdytheresir Thanks Kellie! I enjoyed your video and thought you had some good points. Looking forward to Part 2!

[rachelbinto]

But in Romans 6 the death that sets us free from sin is a past tense event for those Paul is writing to.

"We died to sin" (v.2)

"We were therefore buried" (v.4)

"our old self was crucified" (v.6)

"if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him" (v.8)

"count yourselves dead to sin" (v.11)

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." (v.18)

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God," (v.22)

[rachelbinto]

Show me something from Romans ch.6 that I left out that negates the idea that the death in v.7 is putting to death our sinful nature by faith unto baptism.

Read Romans 8:6-11. Paul reiterates the idea that you are either a slave to sin or freed from slavery to sin by the indwelling Spirit of God.

See also my video on the Memorial. Thanks.

[rachelbinto]

We DIED to sin; how can we live in it any longer? all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his DEATH? We were therefore BURIED with him through BAPTISM into DEATHIf we have been united with him like this in his deathour old self was CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves to sin...if we DIED with Christ, we believe that we will also live with himcount yourselves DEAD TO SIN but alive to God. (Rom 6:2-11)

[rachelbinto]

youtube removed some of my "..." for some reason. But, hopefully you can get the sense of the passage. Again what 'death' is referred to in verse 8 that frees us from sin?

[rachelbinto]

If mortal physical death frees you from sin, why does Paul say that we have been set free from sin now, in this life? (Rom 6:18,22;8:2)

[rachelbinto]

So you agree with me (and the Bible:) that only Jesus' blood frees us from sin and that our own blood shed in death is not able to free us from sin?

[rachelbinto]

1. If our own physical death atones for our sin, what is the use in Jesus' death for that same purpose?

2. Read the whole passage Romans 6:1-11,especially v4-5,8. Then tell me what 'death' is referred to in v.7.

[rachelbinto]

I think Jesus is referring to mortal bodily death, with the Spirit living on despite the body wearing out. The part "never will die" is like what Jesus says in John 8:51. Again, what about Romans 6:7?

[rachelbinto]

There's both physical mortal death, which happened 900+ years after they ate from the fruit and spiritual death, which happened right away as they were banished from the garden where God no longer walked with them.(Gen 3:8,23).

[rachelbinto]

"...I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26)

[rachelbinto]

The separation or life is now and continues into the future and is very real. The default state of man is that of being spiritually dead and only God can give them spiritual life. Jesus and the Father are spoken of as being the life. Do you have this life through the Holy Spirit?

[rachelbinto]

The Bible uses the word 'life' to indicate communion with God, in this life and the next. The Bible uses the word 'death' to indicate separation from God, in this life and the next. There is a 'death' that frees us from sin (Rom 6:7)...what death do you think this is?

[rachelbinto]

Are you spiritually dead now? Not that you will die, but are you currently dead? Please answer this, at least for yourself. It is very important!

Read Romans 6:4,8,11,13 to see what 'death' Paul is talking about in verse 23.

[rachelbinto]

The real question is are you right now alive spiritually to God, using the Bible alone for an answer and nothing else? That is the whole focus of Romans 8. People can be physically alive, and conscious, but spiritually dead to God. Where do you stand on this issue according to God's Word?

[rachelbinto]

Their spirits are dead to God. According to the scriptures is your spirit alive to God?

[rachelbinto]

Do smoke,torment, no rest, weeping,gnashing of teeth and outer darkness sounds like "the life" to you? This is not me saying these things, these are the saying of Jesus. It is not me that you don't believe it is God's word that you disbelieve. The Bible talks about being eternal separation from God as the second death, but also says those not written in the book of life will suffer eternal shame and contempt.(Rev 14:11; Dan 12:1-2). How can an unconscious person feel shame?

[rachelbinto]

"Come, you[sheep] who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world...Then they[goats] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt 25:34-46)

[rachelbinto]

"...To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son." (Rev 21:6-7; see also John 4:14)

Eternal life is given to those who overcome. We can only overcome if the spirit of God lives within us (1 John 4:4; 1 John 5:4-5). This is in sharp contrast to those listed in Rev 21:8, 1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal 5:19-21. Being part of God's kingdom is the only way to have eternal life!

[rachelbinto]

What about Mark 9:43-49? Jesus here equates eternal life with the kingdom of God and contrasts them with the place where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.(see also Luke 13:28-29) Look at the list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal 5:19-21) and compare this with Rev 21:7-8; 1 John 4:4; 1 John 5:4-5). How can you overcome the world and the fate of those not in God's kingdom without being born of God?

[rachelbinto]

Yeah, but if you live in the United Kingdom, aren't you a subject of that kingdom? Isn't the king of that kingdom your king? Isn't God your king or is that only for 144,000 people?

[rachelbinto]

So, are you saying that the kingdom of God that you preach about is something that you and the greatest majority of Jehovah's Witnesses have no hope of being a part of?

[rachelbinto]

"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:7)

Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit will come sometime after he had gone back to be with the Father.(John 7:38-39; John 16:12; Acts 1:4-8) Faith obeys and faith in Jesus saves. Belief ->baptism w/Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that all who believe in Jesus have the right (not a glimmer of a possibility) to become children of God (i.e. born again). Faith has always been what saves, BC and AD.

[rachelbinto]

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God " (1 John 5:1)

'Everyone' and 'All' are used to describe that believing in Jesus and being born again are inextricably linked for all believers. There isn't a qualification that this applies only for a small handful of believers. Would you agree that belief in Jesus is essential for salvation (John 3:36)?

[juliette248]

you obviously think we all go to heaven. I have a question for you. Why do you think so if God didnt tell Adam that if he eat the tree he would die? God said: if you eat from the tree, you will die (if we all go to heaven, God lied and we know that is impossible)

[rachelbinto]

"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26)

[juliette248]

I do! I believe in resurrection but on Earth, not in heaven, that´s why I quoted the adam issue..

[rachelbinto]

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." (Col 2:13-14)

Without being in Christ we are dead in our sins. Being in Christ means eternal life. God doesn't lie about this.

[juliette248]

yes, I told you that I agree with you!! but eternal life where? in heaven or earth?

[rachelbinto]

What do you think it means when Jesus says, "whoever lives and believes in me will never die"?

[juliette248]

yes, we will live forever and I am sure of that, I really believe that we are going to have eternal life, but where do you think? on Earth or in heaven?

[rachelbinto]

I already answered this. Just look over my comments from one month ago on this video. The 'where' is not as important as the 'who'. Believers look forward to the 'who'; that is dwelling with God. Jehovah's Witnesses seem to focus on the 'where' being on earth and the material blessings that it entails--- good food, good work, good plants, animals, nice clothes,etc... I think this emphasizes the gifts over the giver. Communion with God should be top priority; whether in heaven or on earth.

[juliette248]

the 'where' is important because is the basis of all your point of view about future!

[rachelbinto]

That to me is like saying that where you are going to live after marriage is more important than who your spouse is going to be!

[juliette248]

well, if you dont have spouse you dont have marriage... But the point is that Bible says we are going to live on Earth, not in heaven. If not why Jesus said: Be your will in heaven and on Earth? (mathew 9:6-12)

[rachelbinto]

But the Lord's prayer is just that--- a prayer for this system and not a prophecy. Otherwise there would still be sin and evil when God's kingdom comes in all it's fullness, because we would need to forgive those who sin against and need to be delivered from evil. Obviously those things apply for us in this age and not in the age to come. (Matt 6:12-14)

[juliette248]

I think that we will never agree in something. You believe that we all go to heaven, well, that´s not what the Bible says. And Jesus was not saying a prophecy, he was telling what the whole Bible says, that we are going to have eternal life on Earth. Read Isaiah 45:18,19 "Jehovah is the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited" Can you see???

[rachelbinto]

Let's get back to the subject of this video. What verses in Romans 8 apply to those going to heaven? What verses apply to those destined to live on earth? What verses apply to those who are not going to live eternally in heaven or on earth? Thanks in advance for your response.

[SixStringDeity]

@rachelbinto great point. I was trained to focus on MY future life, what THINGS we would have, not have, how we would al be happy. thats fine. but, i ALWAYS thought that would be limited compared to actually knowing God, i heaven, for example. the WHERE isnt important. it shouldnt be. it should be about God and knowing him. if he wants me on earth, excellent. if he wants me inheaven, even better. im sure he knows what he is doing. JW's dont get this, its all about paradise.

[SixStringDeity]

@SixStringDeity i finally say this, if i wake up after death anywhere that God is there, forgiving me my sins, granting eternal life, i could care less about WHERE that is.to KNOW the father, and Christ, is whats important, and the thing we crave. the perks of earth, thats abonus. and JW 's do not understand, Most christians alos understand at some point, the earth will be inhabited and be a paradise. they are told they are the only ones who understand this stuff. not so.

[rachelbinto]

@SixStringDeity Amen! If all you are looking forward to is nice clothes, nice housing, good friends and a pet panda then aren't you concentrating on the gifts and not the giver? The JW view is so materialistic. I would rather be in a closet with God then be in a pretty nice vacation spot without Him.

[rachelbinto]

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:26)

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God," (1 John 5:1)

"Yet to ALL who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the RIGHT to become children of God" (John 1:12)

[juliette248]

what about you?

[juliette248]

In the 33rd of Pentecost, Christ, poured Holy Spirit out on a group of 120 disciples who were gathered in Jerusalem. By virtue of this fact came to be anointed sons of God and brothers of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15-17). They became a new nation, "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). What began as a small group, end up being a nation of 144,000 members (Revelation 7:1-4). They were baptized in the spiritual body of Christ(Romans 6:3, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13, 27, Ephesians 1:22, 23)

[rachelbinto]

What connection does Rev 7 have with Romans 8:15-17?

What about the connection between Romans 8:1-14 and Romans 8:15-17 ??

[juliette248]

because both versicles talk about 144.000. Paul said: "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together" (Romans 8:17). Now these spiritual sons of God had the prospect of inheriting the same as Christ Jesus, royal power in the sky. Jesus revealed to John the number of people who govern it on Land: 144,000. (Revelation 7:4, 14:1-3.)

[juliette248]

Then he showed that these disciples of John "shall be priests of God and Christ, and reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6).

[rachelbinto]

What do you make of God's promise to the Israelites that they will be for him "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation"(Ex 19:6). Isn't Rev 20:6 the fulfillment of that?(also 1 Pet 2:4-10;Rev 5:10) Rev 1:5-6 say that the kingdom and priests are those loved by God and set free from sin; does that not apply to all believers?

Also, 144,000 and the "great crowd" are not mentioned in Rom 8:1-14, but what 2 opposing affiliations are described there?

[juliette248]

Jesus' sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 that have been specially chosen. those who have been 'born again' will rule with Christ in heaven for the benefit of others who live on Earth. This was predicted in an outstanding promise that the Lord did to Abraham four thousand years ago: "By your descendants will certainly bless all the nations of the earth." (Genesis 22:18). Indeed, by the descendants of Abraham would be great blessings available to all nations.

[juliette248]

Who became the "seed"? It was Jesus Christ, along with his followers who truly experienced the new birth. The apostle Paul said: "In addition, if you belong to Christ, they really are descendants of Abraham." (Galatians 3:16, 29.) And what are the blessings we receive people of all nations through Jesus and the disciples who have been 'born again'? the privilege of being restored to the favor of God and enjoy all its provisions to a paradise earth.Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29, Proverbs 2:21, 22

[juliette248]

So the 144,000 disciples who have been 'born again' will enter the celestial Kingdom of God 'to manage the wonderful blessings that will bring millions upon millions of people here on Earth. (Matthew 6:10, Romans 8:19-21, Revelation 21:1-5.) We do not know if ever Nicodemus understood Jesus' words and 'born again' to become part of this leadership group. What we do know is that the opportunity to receive the benefits of this heavenly government is available to anyone who wants it.

[rachelbinto]

I know this isn't answered in the Watchtower article you pasted in for me, but I am looking forward to an answer in your own words in reply to this question:

Th 144,000 and the "great crowd" are not mentioned in Rom 8:1-14, but what 2 opposing affiliations are described there?

[juliette248]

it talks about the 144.000 because they are the only ones who can be called "sons of God"

[rachelbinto]

Do you belong to Christ?

[juliette248]

yes, i am christian, I believe in him and I try to follow his steps the best i can

[rachelbinto]

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Rom 8:9)

According to Rom 8:9 do you belong to Christ? What about Romans 8:7-8? Can you submit to God and please him without the Spirit of God living in you?

[juliette248]

the active force of God compels me to obey the Lord. I demonstrate the divine qualities at home, in the ministry, congregation and in every other place. The fruit of the spirit is evident in a relationship, children, fellow Christians and others.

[rachelbinto]

Julieta, what 2 groups of people are described in Romans 8?

[juliette248]

Two groups who will benefit from the provisions of God: " For the eager expectation of the creation (one group) is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God (another group) For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

[rachelbinto]

Just looking at Romans 8, not citing any other scripture, what 2 groups of people are being described here? Saved vs. unsaved? Or those going to heaven vs. those resurrected on earth? None of the above?

[juliette248]

I am not citing any other scripture! that´s my opinion. It talks about those who go to heaven and those who will live on Earth. Why dont you explain me your opinion in a better way? because you have asked me the same more than once, and I really want to have a conversation in wich you can tell me what you think and me too.

[rachelbinto]

Mind set on flesh (v.5)

Mind is death (v.6)

Is hostile to God (v.7)

Cannot please God or submit to His Law (v.7-8)

Does not belong to Christ (v.9)

You will die (v.13)

Does the above set of characteristics described in Romans 8 apply to those who are going to inherit salvation on earth?

[juliette248]

I have already told you. Romans 8 talks about 2 groups. Paul confirms this, because after talking about those who are "joint heirs with Christ" and be "glorified together" with him in heaven, speaks about the "creation" as human "eager expectation" is to be "freedom from slavery to corruption," or sin, and 'have the glorious freedom of the children of God. "(Rom. 8:15-21) There he is talking about the ones who are going to live on Earth. Do you think that we all go to heaven?

[rachelbinto]

Agreed that Romans 8 talks about 2 groups and that one of them is going to heaven.

What is the hope you can offer to me and claim for your own? That our minds can be set on carnal things, that we are hostile to Jehovah and cannot please Him or obey Him, that we do not belong to Christ and that we will die (while the other group gains eternal life)?

[juliette248]

the hope that the Bible offers is eternal life on Earth (Psalms 37:10,11) and to 144.000 people life in heaven. So if you think that we all go to heaven, what is your opinion about that Psalm?

[rachelbinto]

"...And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a HEAVENLY one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them." (Heb 11:13-16)

This passage is about OT heroes of faith. What do you make of it?

[juliette248]

you know I believe that 144.000 have been chosen to go to heaven. However you didnt answer my question, what do you think about psalms 37:10, 11? and Psalms 37:29, "The righteous themselves will possess the earth,

And they will reside forever upon it."?

and Isai. 65:21,22 "they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage" ? Psalms 98:7-9?

[rachelbinto]

"the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God" (Rev 3:12, also Rev 21:2,10)

After judgment day heaven comes down to earth, so that God's promise that he will dwell with his people will be fulfilled. This is the new heavens and the new earth. Until that time, believers are either at home in the body or with the Lord in heaven (2 Cor 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-24) Jesus promises to prepare a place for us in heaven (John 14:2-3) The Spirit is the deposit that guarantees this.

[juliette248]

God has elected some imperfect people to be "saints of the Supreme governing with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 3:21, 20:6). This does not mean that all obedient mankind will be born again to go from Earth to Heaven. God never pretended that life was short and painful. Jesus and those who are born again to be kings and priests with him in heaven will remove all the damage that Satan and men have done to earth (Ephesians 1:8-10).

[juliette248]

But do you know what I think? I think we will never agree in something.. I would like to know what do we have in common, if we do.. hehe

[juliette248]

our difference is that I believe that those versicles you are citing have to be applied only to the 144000 who go to heaven, not to all of us. What do you think about that number that appears on the Bible, 144000?

[rachelbinto]

This passage is clear. Either you are filled with the Spirit of God or you cannot please God. There is no third option. There is no 144K mentioned in this passage.

If you take 144K literally, then you must also take it literally that the 144K are 12 groups of Jewish male virgins with 12K from each tribe listed. That would mean no women could go to heaven. Is that your interpretation?

[juliette248]

Some argue that since Revelation contains symbolic language, all figures mentioned in the book, such as 144,000, must also be. This is incorrect. It is true that many figures in Revelation are symbolic, but also includes some literal, as when John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:14). It is obvious that 12 is literal. John also mentioned the reign of Christ "a thousand years." this figure is literal too (Revelation 20:3, 5-7).

[juliette248]

Therefore, the numbers in Revelation must be interpreted literally or symbolically, depending on the context in which they appear.

[rachelbinto]

Exactly. So why do you take the 144K part literally, but take the 12 groups of 12K Jewish male virgins figuratively? If 144K is literal, so is the rest of the description of that group.

[rachelbinto]

Romans 8 verse 15-21 needs to be read with Romans 8:1-14 in order to understand the context. Also, the creation in verse 19-20 is referring to the natural world. The whole creation suffers from the curse in Gen 3:17-18 and looking forward to a reversal as in Is 55:12.

[juliette248]

my point of view is not in contrast with Romans 8:1-14

[juliette248]

So, eventually, all those who benefit because of their faith in Christ's sacrifice will enjoy life as children of God ... 144,000 who were "bought from land" to be in heaven and many who will enjoy eternal life in earth.-Revelation 7:4, 9; 14:3, Matthew 25:31-34. This point of view is based on the Bible and it has support from other versicles

[rachelbinto]

Yes I belong to Christ. I know this because the Spirit of God lives in me and that anyone who does not have the Spirit of God living in them does not belong to Christ.(Romans 8:9) Those that belong to Christ participate in the 1st resurrection, and are Abraham's seed and heirs of the promise, (1 Cor 15:23; Gal 3:29) According to your literature, aren't the 144,000 the only ones that belong to Christ?

[juliette248]

those who have 'born again' will rule with Christ in the heavenly kingdom of the Lord for the benefit of others of mankind who live on Earth. This was predicted in an outstanding promise that the Lord did to Abraham, ancestor of Jesus, nearly four thousand years ago: "By your descendants will certainly bless all the nations of the earth." (Genesis 22:18). Indeed, by the descendants of Abraham would be great blessings available to all nations.

[juliette248]

So the 144,000 disciples who have been 'born again' will enter the celestial Kingdom of God 'to manage the wonderful blessings that this will bring to millions and millions of people here on Earth. (Matthew 6:10, Romans 8:19-21, Revelation 21:1-5.)

[wizzy812]

Nice video. Pauls words are so hard to understand. It helps the way you presented it.

[laffy4christ]

Awesome presentation Rachel. Good to see you on your own video. I've been following your comments..very succint & truthful BIBLE-BASED answers.

thanks for sharing the good news.

laffy, ur sister, in christ

[21crosscheck21]

Excellent presentation Rachel! Context-context -context

[alamo11]

"if ANYONE is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION" just about says it all.

[JustWantTruth1]

Thank you for this video!