Bob Kauflin: Why Christians Sing

[StubberRubber]

why the blood stain on paper at the end?

[StrumstickJoe]

Christians sing, presumably, because they have the same musical needs as normal people. But the stuff they sing is dubious - they sing worship, and that's a bad thing. To imagine a god who needs constant, world-wide daily worship is to imagine a very insecure being indeed.

Worship demeans you. Don't do it.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe do you assume god would be somehow damaged by a lack of worship? def not what christians believe. worship is for us, not him. it is an expression of our commitment, dependence on and appreciation of him. he redeemed us. thats why we do it.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 "...assume god would be damaged..."??

What nonsense is this? God is a figment of Iron Age imagination. The bible is a collection of plagarised - and I might add - vindictive and murderous myths.

Millions upon millions of people don't have dependence and appreciation of this imaginary friend - and yet they manage. More than that, they live their lives well, then die the same as everyone else.

Try it.

Free yourself.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe hey, youre the one that suggested his emotional weakness. i guess what you meant to say in your first comment was god doesnt exist.. from what vantage point do you seem to have a complete view of the nature of the universe, the writers of the bible and what the bible thinks god is like? what makes you think hes imaginary? finding some seeming discrepancies in the old testament or calling names arent very convincing arguments. i am free gal 5:1

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 "what makes you think he's imaginary?"

It really is for the person who imagines the god to provide the proof. Nobody has yet.

I don't have to prove anything, or have any special knowledge of the universe to know that no evidence has been found for the myths - and to know that they are plagarised from previous myths. The "holy" books are anthologies of discrepancy.

Peace - find it, it's out there;-)

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe i dunno. the atheistic worldview is a relatively new one. throughout history nearly everyone believed in some kind of higher power, til the late 1700s maybe. on the contrary, i would say to upset most of human history, the burden of proof is on the atheist. seems like you havent examined the very real evidence thats out there, but, rather, taken it on faith that there is none. an argument from silence is also a pretty weak argument. any other reasons to believe what your saying?

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 Oh dear, you forgot about the 100,000 years (or even twice that) before the advent of the jewish mythology.

The AWV is known throughout history - I've never heard such a claim!

The "very real evidence", as you call it, is what I've been studying, and it really isn't there. There is no evidence whatever for any of the magic stuff, nor for exodus, king david, or JC. Nothing

Lots of people believe, of course, but that's not evidence, it's faith.

You have nothing except that.

Peace.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe agreed that people believing something doesnt make it true. first, investigate the claims/evidence, then draw conclusions. among the evidence testifying to christianity is logical, scientific, historical, relational, biblical and personal. so far youve given no arguments for your case

exodus

archeologist bob cornuke most likely found it and the real mt sinai

jesus

both tacitus and josephus (among others) directly authenticate jesus life

the list goes on.. evidence please?

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86

In all my years of trying to get christians or muslims to show evidence, all they can produce is stuff from the books themselves. Nothing can be self-confirming.The more you quote it the more you show it up. I don't need to provide the evidence of the non-existence of your fantasies. Not my job. Think!

I want people to free themselves from these unhelpful myths, which can actually be dangerous. You're supporting the extremists instead of marginalising and ridiculing them.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 If you have provided evidence that's good enough for me.

Who are tacitus and josephus? Should I have heard of them? I'm glad Bob most likely found mt sinai, shame he didn't actually find it - and even if he did...?

Don't you think the 10 commandments are a bit naff? I mean, the human race wouldn't have got even anywhere near 100.000 years old if they didn't know that it was a bad idea to kill each other!

The stories are all a bit vague, don't you think?

Proof of the miracles?

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe i just asked why you believe atheism is right. im interested in your reasons. saying the bible is outdated isnt a reason for gods nonexistence. evolutions a better argument than that (which i submit is still weak). thus far sounds like your only reason is you dont like christianity.. you should def have heard of josephus (nonchristian jewish historian of jesus time). tacitus was a roman official then. any old google searchll show ya bobs right -unless youre afraid of some evidence

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 atheism is the non-existence of any god in the human brain. We are all born with it. God has to be indoctrinated in.

Evidence would have to include archeological evidence, remaining proof of miracles, viable blind-testing of the outcome of prayer. It's your story, you find it!

Except in wish-thinking, none of those things exist. I am not afraid - either of true evidence, or of death and oblivion. "a reason for god's nonexistence" indicates your hopeless commitment to the myth

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe i still dont see an argument in there. saying atheism 'just is' (which is what nonthinking christians say) is no argument at all. equating my belief in god with fear of death does not prove anything. its just a cheap shot. this is the indoctrination i would expect from hitchens or dawkins. i dropped you some evidence which it seems you didnt investigate. i could share more, but i dont think youre listening. until that point ill wait for an argument from you. why is atheism right?

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe i didnt pray that prayer. do i affirm those verses as true? as a christian, absolutely. hows this for a request from a child to a parent: dad, dont let anything bad happen to me ever, and if it does take it away. this is the prayer of a brat. unpleasant things can happen to build us stronger. honest christians dont pray that. figure this one out; doesnt work for me: the universe sprang uncaused into existence. really? there was nothing and then for no reason there was something?

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 Mark 11:24:, the words of Jesus himself:

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours…"

Unequivocal - I would call that.

So pray the prayer, and stop changing the subject to the origin of the universe - a debate you will also lose, because, although neither of us know anything about it, you believe you do, and your explanation is magic that you read in a story-book!

Then pray…

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe thats like usin ben steins dawkins interview in expelled to prove he believes intelligent design. dont be so quick to judge. john 15:7 clarifies. in mark jesus is talking to his disciples who already want to do what hed do and say what hed say. hes encouraging them after a bad visit to the temple to pray boldly and says 'have faith in god.' this is because its god who will cause it to happen not them per se or their prayer. if i pray contrary to god, hes not obligated to perform.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 Excuses... excuses.

The bible has very little truth in it, so the believers (though they need to duck and dive) continue to find desperate mitigation whenever they are challenged.

The trouble is, if you start from a position of faith, then you commit to the thing, and then you can't get out of it without a major reversal.

You are going to have to have a rethink, or be stuck on your knees being ridiculous for life. (fortunately not for eternity!)

Free yourself from gods.

Peace.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe youre entitled to your opinion, though it seems more biased than considered. do you change sides when your words are used out-of-context against you? of course not! you correct the misunderstanding. id say if theres a foundation point thats certainly true, everythings seen in light of this. if you dont like the foundation, prove it wrong. but you dont get very far by 'proving' periphery wrong - the foundation is still intact! if god exists and jesus was right.. then youre wrong

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 It's very considered, as you well know.

And I am tired of relgios thinking I have to provide proof - Why? For what? I don't require proof for the nonexistence of anything. If you want your myths confirmed, then you have to have evidence or it all falls down.

Oh - I forgot, you have faith, don't you? Hence, no evidence required. Just believe in magic and go from there - follow the sheep.

I was born an atheist and so were you. And we will both die; end.

Peace on earth.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 Have you said that prayer yet?

2 people I know still have cancer.

It's serious - if the prayer doesn't work, then the whole charade falls about your ears.

Nobody should be believing in that utter rubbish any more.

Let's try and use our intelligence.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe actually i dont know you at all. all i can tell is you like insulting people and having faith in atheism. doesnt=considered by a long shot. you havent considered any of my arguments except in vague general terms. youve put yourself in an untouchable 'i dont have to prove anything' garrison. and when ive brought up points of question for you, theyre 'changing the subject.' so far you just seem angry, rash and emotional, not considered. im prayin for a man with cancer of the soul...

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 Actually you don’t know about me at all. The reason I don’t insult people is that I don’t like doing it. I have considered a lot of factors in this subject, and I know, as you do, that if there were no religion, my beliefs would just be the same. I am unaffected by primitive superstitions; if that insults you then your foundations are shaky.

I presume you know that the “angry, rash & emotional” outburst says more about you than it does about me, and the last shot was just cheap.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe so you dont think youve offered a single insult in this entire dialog? everything youve said has had a respectful and courteous tone? its certainly not the case. i will admit we have widely varying perspectives, but i have not caricatured your position or hurled insults at you as an atheist (im sure you know of many). do you really not see the contempt in your tone? your intimidation is wholly ineffective on me, because it lacks any reason to believe it! where are your facts?!

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 2) ..we are in terrific danger, but it is not from hordes of atheists thundering across the plains - no; it is from the religious fundamentalists, spurred on by their crazy beliefs, and the way they are supported by otherwise innocent and gullible followers who give them their reason for being. They believe there is another life, and they hate this one. That is why I am discourteous about religion

Find peace.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe i see the difficulty to keep respectful composure when discussing frivolous topics with fanatics.. but ive not insulted or attacked or been fanatical. the TF is not a belief widely held that needs dismantling, but theism is widely held and should at least require thoughtful reasons for its 'error' not simple ridicule. if anything, ridicule causes greater fanaticism! an entire school of thought wont change for 'im right youre wrong, just accept it you idot.' it deserves more

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe and unlike the TF i would say theres much evidence of god which ive mentioned topically already. its a careless overstatement to say christianity leads to war, rather the lust for power does, which plagues the 'religious' and atheist alike. at the heart of christianity, though, is a profound awareness of no one being 'better' than another. leading to just the opposite of what you describe. if a person were to adhere more truly to christianity, you would not find such fanaticism

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 2) If the world would follow the idealised JC myth (rather than the grotesque myth in the NT) of poverty and equality – then… that would be something! It would still be weird and child-like, but something. I do actually wish that the constant pointing-out of the utter lack of proof (Hitchens and ZOMGitsCriss are SO much better than I) will bring about the crumbling of the rotten church and especially of these smug, rich US preachers. Look at atheist umbrella on YT.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 1) “respectful composure” - composure, yes, respect, as explained, no.

Theism is a belief widely held that needs dismantling.

“Thoughtful reasons” are the lack of evidence that you fail to see, and the trail of blood that leads from the Iron Age to the religions of the present day.

“I’m right, you’re wrong” describes the religions SO perfectly. I’m overjoyed you brought it up! You seem intelligent; I really can’t believe you believe.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe its clear you already believe theism is a belief widely held that needs dismantling. my point was that because so many people believe theism, your worldview requires more reasons than the statement 'im right' (which anyone can say) - ridicule makes for greater fanaticism! and as ive already said, theres plenty of evidence.. maybe you only pick atheistic evidence to look at tho. consider the beginning of the universe, its fine-tuned original conditions..

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 I ask the question in an attempt to stop the apocalyptic beliefs of those who care nothing for this (only) life, and who seek to ruin what we have for their fanatic beliefs. They are supported by those who (perhaps like you) give naive support to their mission. They need financial and intellectual support  for it.

Religion is immoral, and controlling, and ultimately lethal. you might be a nice guy, but you're supporting evil people.

You CAN get out.

Peace.

[goliathbane86]

@StrumstickJoe ..the reality and testimony of jesus, the presence of moral absolutes and my subsequent personal experience of god. id be willing to bet you take larger leaps of faith that i do in trying to explain these all. there are people far more intelligent than you or i who know god..

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 "people far more intelligent than you or i who know god.. " knowing god means accepting a ghostly presence. I don't. Yours and their personal experience is delusion - tell me you believe in miracles. People far more intelligent than you or I don't.

Is there a difference between your set of stories and mohamed's? Or Santa? No, they are all unnecessary fantasy. Lack of evidence - that's what you have, and in many years of asking, I have been provided with none.

[StrumstickJoe]

@goliathbane86 1) If you were having a conversation with an adult who was insisting that the tooth fairy was real; I’m sure you would find it hard not to ridicule the idea. I have no interest in personal insult. If you found that, then you are sensitive to the weakness of your beliefs. So, I ridicule; and on the subject of respect, I will tell you that I have no respect at all for religion because it poisons the world. Let me tell you…

[prissi]

So true! Exactly what I've been trying to say for years to people saying "oh but I can't sing." My version of it involves a lot of gesturing and bouncing, though. :P