@MrJeg16 Thats not true but even if it were even a parrot could overturn your argument.
I want to know how it *was* spent. Will going over to india help find that out? Do you have a time machine? The answer to both questions is no so stop saying that because its not a valid point.
Would that help either your case, my case or is this just your way of side-tracking a discussion where the only logical conclusion is you try to dodge admitting she let people die for the sake of her religion?
@LeoRikimaru Sorry, but your argument is very poor. You have no experience at all and all you have is some idiot's logical explanation who doesn't use reference.
As far as MT letting people die for the sake of her religion. Read 5 post down. That came from a lady who lives in India and has more experience in knowing poverty and what MT did. She post thru my account.
BTW.. you're letting people die by doing NOTHING. IDIOTIC Rhetoric doesn't save anybody, action does.
@MrJeg16 *My* argument is very poor? If I thought you had any concept of irony I'd laugh.
Its very cute you think you can end an argument by trying to shift this onto some sort of attack on my morality.
I don't use an idiots logic, I use logic. Period. She knew reusing needles would spread the epidemic but instead of buying more needles, getting fresh supplies and bedding she built some nice monasteries in her name. Forgive me but was that what the money was donated for?
@MrJeg16 Fantastic, well I'm happy with how this was concluded.
People will read your well formulated and heavily researched synopsis and come to their own conclusions.
Your reply is the very essence of a structured and calculated response that would be welcome in any variety of asylums, mental institutions or villages missing their idiot.
With luck people might even be encouraged by your consistently well thought out replies and research it for themselves. Take care. :-)
@LeoRikimaru Ditto to you my friend. Do me a favor and go to India first and visit the slums and then go see the home of the dying next before you say anything again.
Getting your info from Hitchens is not the greatest thing. Like I said, I've read his books and watched his docu-films. I've seen both sides of the coins sort of speak. And there's nothing better or a better teacher than experiencing it for yourself.
@MrJeg16 Firstly, open your eyes. I told you to stop using that non-point. It only serves to make you look silly.
Secondly, you know nothing about me. I didn't even mention being against religion yet you're the one who dragged it in here. I would like everyone to see that it wasn't I who dragged religion into this. It was you.
Finally, I did my own research separate from Hitchens. Unlike you I don't just take peoples word for it. I've said this through-out, are you illiterate?
@MrJeg16 What's the worst thing about Public School is that even though your kids are going to Private Schools and you're paying for it, the government still makes you pay your tax to public schools, regardless if your kids are enrolled there or not.
In the Bronx there's a lot of low income students in Private Schools or Chartered Schools. They do have programs to assist.
Agree, public schools are failing our kids in so many levels.
You're simplifying things and being hateful by calling Hitchens a 'druggie'. It's not a very good reason to be opposed to someone. He wasn't causing suffering for the sake of getting off on it, that'd be Mother Teresa.
@ScissorHand26 You said I'm being hateful, when all the stuff he wrote were hateful and he got away with it without using any cited sources. Even he admitted that he enjoys being under the influence and partying with celebrities every night. He even said that he writes better when he's under the influence.
As far as not causing any suffering, he never did anything to those who are suffering. He just basically getting rich and more arrogant.
@MrJeg16 At no point has he "praised" addicts, he has only ever suggested he enjoys partying. What you just stated is a fabricated assumption you have come to without any research whatsoever, you should be rather ashamed.
As for Teresa, she obtained vast wealth and didn't use it to radically improve the care given except when it came to her own welfare. This isn't my opinion, this is a fact and easily confirmed by any search engine of your choice.
@LeoRikimaru Funny how you said I've fabricated assumption and come to it without any research whatsoever.
If you read Hitchens books you'll see no footnotes, no workcites, and no credible sources. So fabrication and assumption is Hitchen's work, not mine. If you doubt what I say then read SPIN March 2008 where he openly admitted that most of his works were done while he was under the influence.
@MrJeg16 Who cares? Who cares if he was under the influence? Francis Crick was high on LSD when he made he breakthroughs in genetics, he got a Nobel prize for it and you're going to criticize Hitchens for drinking abit?
Oh and I think you'll find Hitchens used many citations including the most devastating citations of all, Teresa's own words. Nothing is more damning to her defense.
If you are to continue I insist you comment on her finances, otherwise this discussion is over.
@LeoRikimaru Why not? You and him have criticize MT for her work, but neither one of you have ever volunteer or seen any of the works she's done. Self indulgence doesn't compare to self sacrifice. So what if Crick won the nobel prize, Obama won it too and he didn't do crap.
Sure, show me some of the words MT said that would be devasting. I have a thousant more to that. And I'll show you the claim that Hitchens said MT has over 50 mil. stash in a Swiss Bank. MT died and not a penny to her name
@MrJeg16 She had millions at her disposal that didn't go toward the people she cared for, what exactly did she sacrifice?
I can't believe I need to state this but there are different Nobel prizes. Obama got the Nobel peace prize for rigorously promoting the disarming of nuclear weapons and exceptional diplomacy.
Sorry? She died with not a penny to her name? Cite your source, I'll wait.
@MrJeg16 "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
There are many quotes like this. She relished in their suffering because she felt it brought them closer to God.
If you don't see how twisted that is I pity you.
Would you like more quotes from her?
Perhaps from people who witnessed the disgraceful misconduct carried out under her watch towards patients?
@LeoRikimaru "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
Good quote there. Mother was saying that she sees the face of Jesus among the poor and from them the world can learn humility, humbleness, and self sacrifice.
Let me ask you this: 30,000 volunteered total and most of them were touched. These are people who were doctors, nurses, teachers and such.
@MrJeg16 This isn't a Bible quote MrJeg, you can't reinterpret it as metaphorical just because its more palatable to you.
I see, and all 30,000 of those met Teresa, had in-depth conversations with her, had meticulous knowledge of her finances and witnessed first hand how she operated on a regular basis did they?
Really? Because I imagine a benevolent and clever God would go:
"So... reusing needles during an aids epidemic with a decent knowledge of medicine... walk me through this."
@LeoRikimaru She always had a full plate. It's more like small talk. You could ask any of the volunteers and sisters how the finances goes. For me if I needed antibiotics I would take it from their funds and purchase it myself.
As for needles, in the Philippines we used the same needles thru.out the 80's and 90's. Doctors here use diseninfectants to clean them. I'm not sure how it goes today w/mt, I'm sure they are not doing it now
They reused needles in 70's-80's in developed countries
@MrJeg16 Could I Jeg? Could I really? Would they actually have the faintest clue how much they were being given to work with and how much was available? How would they have access to that information? You're assuming they got access to the funds instead of getting allocated them.
As for the needles, that is not the same as doing it during a local aids epidemic and you bloody know it. She chose to do that knowing the risk despite having the funds not to. Why?
@LeoRikimaru As for the needles they only get disinfected, most 3rd world countries including mine does that, so it's not out of the ordinary.
And yes, you could ask the sisters and volunteers. One thing about MT was that people always ask her this and that and I remember MT would say to them, "Come and See." So if you want the real FACTS, "Come and See." Meaning go volunteer.
I've read Hitchens books too esp. on God is not great and his writings on MT and I even watched his docu-film...
@MrJeg16 Not during a bloody aids epidemic. You do not use the same needles when one of the deadliest viruses in the world is skyrocketing.
Stop trying to cover up the fact she used barely any of her funds to help the needy by saying "come and see". If I volunteered now how would that give me more insight into the events of decades passed? It wouldn't, it is a bogus stance to take.
The only defense you have are star-struck volunteers who met her briefly and had no info beyond that.
@LeoRikimaru Hear/say or getting your info. from a false writer will not give much insight. You can go see how donation is spent.
As for the needles and aids epidemic back then it was more of a western thing. It didn't hit us till the early 90's. Westerners like US, Europeans and Australians brought STD's to us.
I went to the clinic yesterday and you won't believe that in my country they only disinfect the needle. We are not like you westerners where you throw away needles like candies.
@MrJeg16 Hear/say and church propaganda is exactly where you get your notions of a saintly woman.
"AIDS is caused by the Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which originated in non-human primates in Sub-Saharan Africa and was transferred to humans during the late 19th or early 20th century."
That's extremely ill-advised for obvious reasons.
Mother Teresa had more than enough money to buy more needles to minimize risk or contagion during an aids epidemic.
@LeoRikimaru I know where AIDS originated from and how it's transmitted, but you missed the point to what I said when I told you that poor countries like ours do not throw away needles and even the rich hospitals here reuse needles. MT's was just doing what other hospitals were doing. All I said was that Europe and US brought STD's to us.
BTW MT was the very FIRST to open up a hospice for AIDS victims and they didn't use mask nor gloves. Also, NOT ONE has EVER gotten AIDS from her facilities.
@LeoRikimaru You seem to like to talk about cash. Do you know how much medication is over here? You westerners complain about the high cost of medications, here it's 4x's more. The cost of hospitalization is lot more. We don't have free healthcare like you do.
If you want to know what they do with the money go check it out. You need to stop acting like a parrot to Hitchens.
This debated ended when you have no proof at all other than what another atheist like yourself wrote.
@LeoRikimaru BTW.. what did you think about when I told you that NO SUCH THING as anyone getting infected with AIDS or STD's in any of MT's facilities. Also, why aren't you giving credit to MT for opening up the FIRST AIDS hospice in the US where her sisters were not afraid to touch AIDS victims and they didn't wear mask. Unlike you westerners who cast them out.
Give credit where it's do or are you too much of a hater to do that?
@MrJeg16 Sorry, whats your point here? We have better healthcare? Yes, we do. Well done.
I was meant to reply to "Also, NOT ONE has EVER gotten AIDS from her facilities."?
I didn't know I had to point out that people had aids before they went to the facilities that care for aids thus making the statement fairly laughable.
I didn't know I was meant to actually thank someone who helped spread aids for treating it too.
I thought you were being ironic. I obviously over-credited your intellect.
There's a lot that Hitchens said that is not true. I can tell you are echoing what he wrote.
I'm not going to continue this debate because I can tell you a lot of things about MT and her Missionaries of Charity and you'll try and find ways to your argument. The only thing I'm going to tell you is for you to go Volunteer.
I've met a couple of atheists and agnostics who were volunteers (no lie) and you would be welcome. MT welcomes all people of different belief....
You are wrong, I am from India and I believe I know more about her. Your point is that she let the poor and sick suffer? But do you know anything about the places where she treated the sick and the poor?
Here in India, Poor and Sick people were never attended to and they were just let to die like animals but Mother Teresa out of compassion and love got them in a Home and cared for them, Many recovered and many did not. She did what she could and for that I respect her
I can tell you there's no better teacher than experience itself. Since I've read Hitchens' books and watched his documentary I'm going to ask you to be fair and watch BBC's Documentary on MT of Calcutta and CNN's MT.
If you have enough money go to India. First go to the slums so you can see how people live there the go to the leper colony and then go to MT's Home for the Dying. Tell the sisters you want to volunteer.
@LeoRikimaru cont. If the poor didn't exist or any unfortunate soul would they or even you know what humility means.
“I am not sure exactly what heaven will be like, but I know that when we die and it comes time for God to judge us, he will not ask, 'How many good things have you done in your life?' rather he will ask, 'How much love did you put into what you did?”
@LeoRikimaru Have you read Hitchens' brother's writing. Totally opposite of him, and he does use workcite and the end of his book. Unlike this self indulgent jerk.
This guy is dead already. I'm positive liberal Hollywood would make a movie out of him. He is like christ to the atheist.
@LeoRikimaru Hitchens existed for himself. Jesus exist thru. even outside the Bible: Josephus (Historian) writing, conversion of Pilate's wife Claudia and later one Pilate. His Apostles existed because we know where each one is buried.
@Naturalhit I think if Hitchens were alive he'd say he existed for the endless, dogged pursuit of information, for the joys of an intelligent conversation and the occasional wild party which he enjoyed so much.
No, sorry. You are not classifying the Bible as a history text book. Either find another, more plausible source not riddled with incest and the dead rising en mass or don't reference Jesus in this debate at all.
I don't reference things to you without proof, I demand the same respect.
@LeoRikimaru For crying out loud, you nag about them not sleeping on a decent bed. you are ignorant of the poverty over there. over 90% of the people over there are in deep poverty and they are sleeping on cardboards, dirty floors, and trash.
You claim Mother made a lot of money, that money went back to the people and not to her pocket. Sure she opened up more facilities to help out the poor and not to build her mansions. BTW the RCC only take a small part of donation the rest is distributed
@Naturalhit That does *not* excuse having those conditions waiting for people who need urgent medical treatment and care when you have the financial power to improve them.
That is comparable to me laying a tramp with a serious open leg wound on a urine soaked mattress because that is what hes used to.
That money went into creating more monasteries and promoting her faith, very little went toward the needy.
She considered her faith more important than human beings, period.
@LeoRikimaru Can you prove that? This is a religious order that took 3 vows. Lands were donated to her and that in turn was given to help the poor. As far as serious open leg wound. Nobody cared to close it up, except for MT who didn't charge them a penny.
Don't talk about how money is spent. In the US right now, I'm forced to pay for someones abortion and it's not even my choice. People choose to donate to her.
@Naturalhit You have *completely* overlooked my point. I will phrase it this time in the form of a question for you to answer:
Why did she use her large fortune amassed from countless donations to build monasteries in her name rather than to improve medical facilities and better care for patients?
To answer the question you posed to me; What I can with as much money as I can spare.
@Naturalhit, Your comment is full of ignorance. You say that MT gave her money back to the people, then used the excuse the that conditions were poor because of the poverty in the area, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! MT had wealth and influence, yet these people she was supposed to be helping and taking donations for still lived in horrible conditions with little medical attention. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF HER BEING THEIR AND TAKING DONATIONS?
@LeoRikimaru, I don't think it's the denial that's perplexing, it's the admission of some of the things she did THEN still not putting two and two together. Thanks for adding some rational thought to the page.
@TheDalinkwent MT HAD WEALTH AND INFLUENCE???? SHE DIED WITHOUT A PENNY TO HER NAME!!!!! Hitchens said to Lamount that she has 50 million in the bank. When she died he found out she was penniless - he never retracted what he said.
@Naturalhit, Good lord, denial and ignorance are great bedfellows. Lets say you're right about her dying a poor women, that still doesn't change the fact that she TOOK MILLIONS IN DONATIONS AND WAS APART OF A POWERFUL AND WEALTHY CHURCH!!!! She took millions to help these people, yet none of it went to decent beds, better facility's or even medical care. BTW the Pope confirmed that he moved MT money after she died into the Vatican. Nice try buddie.
@TheDalinkwent TOOK MILLIONS IN DONATIONS AND WAS APART OF A POWERFUL AND WEALTHY CHURCH!!!!
So what, people decided to donate what is that so hard to believe. She didn't waste the money on herself. BTW. she doesn't receive that much money at all. Ilike to know where you guys are getting this millions of dollars donation? She's lucky if she gets an average of 5 thousand a day. Very few donate millions and if they do that goes to buying food and medications
@Naturalhit, So what? Really? IF she's taking millions of dollars to help these people, then why isn't the result state of the art medical care and a decent bed to sleep in? BTW SHE pointed out the fact that she received millions and so did her Church, she often got donations from the powerful and the wealthy. You also keep ignoring that her very church had millions in revenue. It's also on record that she used the money to expand her missionary, not help the people she was there to help.
@TheDalinkwent "IF she's taking millions of dollars to help these people, then why isn't the result state of the art medical care and a decent bed to sleep in?"
You're kidding right? I mean I tore my achilles tendon and I couldn't afford a 60k surgery for it. Do you think that an average of 5 thousand a day would buy you a state of the art facility? India's own government can't even provide that for its own people.
Simple answer Church keeps 10% to pay for things and the rest goes back.
@TheDalinkwent Watch BBC Mother Teresa documentary if you are not planning on going to India and see it for yourself. Atleast the BCC is credible source. They pretty much go thru. the day to day activity of MT.
Only a few wealthy people donated and they don't donate continuously.
You want me to tell you how the money is handled too since I've seen it? You'd be surprise how MT doesn't even touch it, the volunteers do.
@MrJeg16, BS and no action is pretty much sums up Mother Teresa. She was getting millions of pounds in donations yet barely any of it was getting to the sick people she was supposed to be helping. Many of her defenders even admitted that she saw the beauty is suffering which gave her little incentive to actually change these people lives.
@TheDalinkwent What's up with you Brit. I have a simple answer to you: "GO VOLUNTEER!!!!"
The idiot Hitchens you hold so dear has never step foot to any of her institution. He only interviewed a Doctor who was a former volunteer and wishes to run her place like a business by making patients pay, an angry volunteer who got kicked out and Sis. Virgin who was NEVER a Nun at all.
Now there were 30,000 other volunteers he didn't bother to interview because he won't get the answer he wants.
@MrJeg16, By that logic your point is just as moot, seeing THAT YOU HAVEN'T VOLUNTEERED EITHER!!! I'm using logic and reason to come to my conclusions. MT was a servant of the wealthy and most powerful church in the world, yet they couldn't provide decent beds and better facilities for the people they were supposed to help? Not to mention she took MILLIONS in donations, yet nothing changed but the bodycount growth.
@TheDalinkwent You said I've never volunteered, where did you get that idea??? If your complain is that they couldn't provide decent beds then by all means go over there and donate. Bodycount growth??? MT took the dying off the streets and gave them a place to die with dignity. If it weren't for her their bodies would decay in the streets.
RCC is a huge and powerful church, but they are the most giving too
Nothing change by you if theirs no action. Truth is in the experience, go volunteer
@MrJeg16, So if Mother Teresa was only taking these people to a run down building with little in medical supply or even decent beds to sleep in, why was she taking millions in donations FOR THOSE VERY PEOPLE? she was apart of the most powerful and wealthy church in the world, she really couldn't have done more for those people BESIDES simply giving them a place to die? What nonsense you spew.
@TheDalinkwent Yes, I live in the Philippines and I've been to 4 of her institutions here. I've also seen her in 95-97. MT gets up 3:30am does rosary eat oatmeal and banana, at 5am goes out to the leper colony and see how they are doing and give them medication and sack of rice, 6am goes to orphanage ctr. 11am goes to home of dying and stays there the whole day. 2pm goes to mass. 3pm talks with the sisters and volunteers, 3-11 works, eats rice(no meat) 1 or 2am goes to sleep and repeats routine
@MrJeg16 I've never met MT, but I've volunteered too under Sis. Mirmala. Good deal. A lot of ignorant peole who thinks tht they know everything because of what they've read. They never EVER bothered to see it for themselves.
@Harizl Nope, they'd walk out knowing the hard work and how stupid they are for not knowing the truth. They've only learnt it from Hitchens who never met MT nor been to her facilities.
Well, the indian fellow in the video would disagree with you, and so would many others who viewed what she was doing against what she could be doing and reviewed her motivations and justifications to act such.
The funds she took and where they came from and the amount of good that could have been done versus the ideological 'help' she gave are simply the problems.
It was irrelevant what she believed or the truth of it, it is her actions and motivations which people object.
@Harizl Indian doctor was one of Hitchens henchmen who he used in his book against MT.He claims to have worked with MT, but this doctor was trying to run her facility his way and wants to start charging those who can pay.MT said no she doesn't want charity to turn into a busines.BTW 30,000 other volunteers would disagree with him.
You mean atheist ideology in a secular fashion, while MT did what Christ would've done
Truth here, do it your way if you disagree. So far no action from you guys
What kind of action? you mean donating to charities that help people get healthcare that don't take money from despots or launder it into the catholic church? because I already do that.
I find her beliefs about suffering being good and contraception evil simply antisocial and the actions she took on that motivation simply objectionable and a waste of monies which could have done so much good but instead were squandered on psuedo-help.
@Harizl contraception being evil is simply antisocial to you..that's according to your liberal mindset.If you and others strongly belief in handing out contraceptions to control these poor people then by all means do it, but we know that contraception has nothing to do with being antisocial.That just a pervertion among those who preach shacking up without responsibility of marraige in order to avoid family creation
I would rather give my money to MT who would not use for herself like Hitchens
No, it's not my mindset, it's an objective fact that people have sex and those who don't have contraception available will have higher rates of teen pregnancy. These increased rates of teen pregnancy have a direct connection to increases in inner city and low income crime rates as well as a decrease in standard of living in the lives of everyone involved.
You can blame kids for having sex, but that kind focus does nothing to help the problem, because they are kids.
@Harizl Liberals have tried to block abstinance programs in public schools for many years. When Pres. Bush stepped into office abstinance was finally passed and it was thought in Public Schools and teen pregnancies went down tremendously. Now this is nothing new, Private Schools like Catholic and other denominations have been teaching this all the time and pregnancies among teens were low.
There's alot more to this dynamic than we like to think. There will always be crimes among low incomers
But believe me when I tell you that white color crimes among the rich far exceed that of low incomers. They just don't get reported and they can away with it thru. loop holes in the system.
1) Liberals have blocked Abstinence-ONLY* programs, because they simply are less effective and teach kids less. If you wish people to be uneducated about sex when they do start having sex then you are simply negligent or ignorant of human sexual history.
2) White Collar* crimes are irrelevant in this discussion because there is no correlation between teen pregnancy and white collar crime.There will always be crime, but preventing unplanned pregnancy is a preventable factor.
@Harizl 1. Not true-Liberals have blocked Abstinence from being taught and prefer to teach our kids how to slip on condoms and use birth control pills. Sex among our teens have caused them to be confused, immature, and hurt. Try going to a Private Christian School and listen as to how sex education. Teens are better educated and happier in their future. They are far more responsible.
2. You said Low Incomers cause more crimes, I simply point out to you White Color crime far exceeds this.
@Harizl Have you read Time's gallop poll for 2007? I believe it came out sometime in March or June..not sure. Times reported that teens in public schools are having less since abstinence program was included in schools. I agree, that was something Private Schools have been teaching all the time and have resulted good.
I agree with Obama on Charter Schools if people don't want Private Christian schools. Public School ='s FAIL
They allow teens to get an abortion without Parents' consent.
You are conflating things as well as ignoring AGAIN that those programs are not simply abstinence ONLY*, any good sexual education program stresses the importance of abstinence, but also teaches about contraception and how to properly protect yourself.
Lets just stop all contraception and abortion as well as non-abstinence-only education and see how awesome the statistics start looking and how much better the world becomes.
@Harizl We have low income family members coming to our school. We get funded by gov. to help youth who got kicked out of public school. Our school is more structure, rigorous, and we get parents involved with their kids.
Why not abstinence type programs, when it's clear Public Liberal run schools are failing. Sorry, but wouldn't you rather know if your kids are having an abortion and the public schools doesn't tell you about it?
The world hasn't gotten better. It's run by rich governments
I would rather know that my kids understand how to use a condom and how birth control works then simply 'don't have sex'. I actually think it's a disservice and failure to educate when they are taught like that. Shall we tell people 'just don't do math' as well?
As for the American school system, I'm not from America, I'm from a place that actually reforms it's failing systems instead of just privatizing them which costs everyone more in the end.
@Harizl So where are you from? I notice that those I debate on MT are British or are British decent or fomer British occupied country. I guess it has something to do with the support for Hitchens who btw hates his own country. I apologize if you're not.
Here in America condoms are hand out to kids as young as 4th grader (9yo). BTW my tax money pays for those condoms and their abortion. I would rather teach my kids than let liberal schools do it.
Hitchens became a American Citizen, if you think where you are born has some kind of relevancy to your chosen ideological preference, it's simply silly. Also, he's dead so use the proper past-tense.
In America, the conservative juggernaut is progressively defunding local police forces and fire fighting, public schooling, planned parenthood, and any other social safety net which does not help the well-off. Do you think this is wise? because to an outside observer it's lunacy.
@Harizl Yes, past-tense is correct. He did past away recently, rest his soul (if he believes in one). I live in US too, and I go back forth between countries so yes I know what you mean
Public service like police, fire fighters, teachers and such are running the states down with their massive pension plans and pay. As for PP, I hope they fall off the face of the earth. They are not only making money off of us tax payers but are also making money selling parts from aborted fetus. Just goole it
If you think the pension plans of public servants are an issue, then you are simply incorrect. The cost of those services have been overblown by politicians supported by corporate interests wanting to privatize them for profit. Your country is being ruined by horrible lack of campaign finance reform, lack of enforcement of corruption, and the results of anti-regulatory lobbying.
The cost of the red-herring issues that are blamed, there are insignificant.
@Harizl Since I currently live in Calif. Let's take a look at this state as an example. There's a fiscal deficit of 60 bill. when Arnold was gov. The problems are union liberals who support a liberal democratic party. A retired police chief has a pension worth 8 mill. Same thing goes for Fire Chief, Teachers, and so on. Now if you have a deficit in the billions and all these bloated pensions and highly paid union public workers what do you think is going to happen soon?
California is a mess, has been long before now. You have massive amounts of wasted tax dollars going to huge numbers of issues and money-sinks. The amount of reform is obscene, but if you think those large pensions are going to cost you, wail till you see the pension plans of the CEO's you will have when you privatize those services, and the lack of any kind of benefits for those now non-union workers who are at the bottom of the ladder. Realistic outcomes from bad options.
Actually how about people do some research rather than having to go all the way down there and see. A lot of this happened in the past, do you recommend a time machine? It seems there is more than enough information to go on to determine whether this lady's actions were ethical.
@ScissorHand26 You don't need a time machine. What Mother Teresa has set is still being done today. And you don't have to go to Calcutta, Mexico, LA, Bronx, and so forth still has Missionaries of Charity facilities.
But Calcutta is where everybody should go anyway to really experience what MT went thru.
JESUS CHRIST GAVE the CATHOLIC CHURCH the gift of GOVERNMENT ON EARTH. Mother Teresa is a TESTIMONY of CHRIST MISSION here on Earth and the CATHOLIC CHURCH has the DUTY of confirming JESUS WILL.
Why don't they have these kind of television shows in America? This is a television show right? This would definitely educate people on different religious and non-religious perspectives.
@necronomicon009 Because one of the aims of government is to restrict its peoples ability to form reasoned and informed opinions, thus allowing them to do as they please in privacy
Some governments are better at exorcising control over this than others.
It does not really matter if Teresa gets “sainthood”. It is only a title given to the dead by a corrupt and failing system(the vatican). A title given to people who in life either through their actions or inaction allowed thousands to needlessly suffer and/or die to further their delusional belief system. So it kind of fits. ;O)
Why do catholics want other mortals to make decisions for them? It is just not possible for the pope to pretend he is speaking god's word. There is no god anyway!
I just wanted to see Hitch appear in the audience,put his hand up at the end, then see the fear in that odious woman's eyes as she has to listen to her religion been torn a new one by someone who actually knows what he's talking about and has written proper books on it, rather than the author of such bollocks as " Venus Envy", "Glitter", "Desire" and fucking "Sparkles"!!!!! FFS... who thought anyone would give a fuck what she thought?
How can you not invite Hitchens to a debate about mother theresa? Probably because if they would have had invited him, he would have broken their brains into chemical waste.
@focusedfizzer Actually MT was suffering from a congestive heart failure and she never stopped working. As a former volunteer try this at her home for the dying: 1 Getting up 4am 2 Eating only banana and oatmeal 3 Going to the dying patients and cleaning their feces and vomit and then feeding them 4 Administering medication to them 5 Feeding them if they can still eat 6 Talking and praying with them 7 This is an all day thing 8 Remove the dead and perform death ritual according to their faith
This was supposed to be about Mother Theresa and it ended up just being Catholic bashing. Many of the real reasons for their anger were nothing to do weith |Mother Theresa but more to do with defending Calcuttas image or fear of more Hindus converting to Catholicism.
I'm glad I got to watch all three parts. The Hindu fellow brought up Stephanihc (sp?) He could also have brought up the founder of Opus Dei, Jose Maria Escriva or something like that, another 'orse's arse who was given the fast track to sainthood bhy J2P2. If that a**hole is in heaven, I don't want to go there...
I love how the ppl...the indian and the white feminist lady absolutely DOMINATED the entire conversation refusing to let anyone finish a thought! sighs...how unfortuante....
Just for the record, as at July 2011 The Order (of which Motheresa led) is now being investigated for child abuse and financial irregularity. The Indian government is now looking carefully at the Order because it is becoming an embarassment to India.
the hindu guy and benjamin talked real sense!... no one enjoys/embraces suffering (it may be considerd, that those who wish to be at some-ones deathbed and not help, have very twisted, unwell thoughts, this is only ever considered good when shrouded in religion of any kind) and no matter what faith people have, there is good. To convert some-one at thier deathbed, is to capitalise on that persons fear of death itself.
This proves what is already known that the world hates the things of christ and his church if they were discusing any other religion the debate would not be so heated
"That was an interesting, adult exchange of views."
No it wasn't. Most of the discourse was simply baseless, sectarian, immovable, superstitious assertions and corresponding contradictions--not arguments. The only voices of reason were silenced, and the entire debate was a disgrace.
The Catholic woman especially voiced a classical theist falsehood: "This is beyond criticism simply by virtue of being called religion."
I look forward to the day when people like her are no longer around.
jeesus, i wouldn't take home an open pay packet to that bagshawe one, if mother teresa is in heaven i hope she's looking after the poor bloke who married her.
@danny123xvz picture her in lingerie........black......holding a dildo.....lips parted slightly with an expression that says "do your worst".........shes looking good now eh????
@danny123xvz a very arrogant bitch indeed, who obviously hasn't been having any sex. just from the way she speaks and moves it's so obvious that she is sexually repressed.
@danny123xvz Agreed. Her demeanour and the constant rocking is a sign of disrespect for the speaker against her. Also how come people can never come back with a better argument, when challenged then "can you let me finish"?
Why in this day&age we still waste time discussing religious celebrities & so called "sainthood" ?
Helping is not about charity which perpetuates poverty & recruits new converts among the defenseless and vulnerable. Conversions constitute one illusion replacing another without solving anything. Is Jesus better connected than Muhammad or Shiva?
Only golden rule and human solidarity can help poor TO BECOME INDEPENDENT from dehumanizing & humiliating giveaways by the filthy-guilty rich.
love the description :)
lightsofjune 2 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru
You're acting as a Parrot to Hitchens. Concerning injections, STD crisis, Multimillions, and building Monasteries are all in his books and Docu-films.
You really want to know the truth on injections, STD's and how the money is spent = Go over to India and find out.
Also, can you tell me the names of the Monasteries she built and where?
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
@MrJeg16 Thats not true but even if it were even a parrot could overturn your argument.
I want to know how it *was* spent. Will going over to india help find that out? Do you have a time machine? The answer to both questions is no so stop saying that because its not a valid point.
Would that help either your case, my case or is this just your way of side-tracking a discussion where the only logical conclusion is you try to dodge admitting she let people die for the sake of her religion?
LeoRikimaru 2 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru Sorry, but your argument is very poor. You have no experience at all and all you have is some idiot's logical explanation who doesn't use reference.
As far as MT letting people die for the sake of her religion. Read 5 post down. That came from a lady who lives in India and has more experience in knowing poverty and what MT did. She post thru my account.
BTW.. you're letting people die by doing NOTHING. IDIOTIC Rhetoric doesn't save anybody, action does.
MrJeg16 2 weeks ago
@MrJeg16 *My* argument is very poor? If I thought you had any concept of irony I'd laugh.
Its very cute you think you can end an argument by trying to shift this onto some sort of attack on my morality.
I don't use an idiots logic, I use logic. Period. She knew reusing needles would spread the epidemic but instead of buying more needles, getting fresh supplies and bedding she built some nice monasteries in her name. Forgive me but was that what the money was donated for?
You lose, deal with it
LeoRikimaru 2 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru World wide epidemic FAILED
Repeated use of needles FAILED
Idiot logic FAILED
Not using fresh supplies and bedding FAILED
Unable to tell me where this monasteries in her name FAILED
Conclusion... you don't know anything. Go volunteer and perhaps you might learn the truth.
MrJeg16 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrJeg16 Fantastic, well I'm happy with how this was concluded.
People will read your well formulated and heavily researched synopsis and come to their own conclusions.
Your reply is the very essence of a structured and calculated response that would be welcome in any variety of asylums, mental institutions or villages missing their idiot.
With luck people might even be encouraged by your consistently well thought out replies and research it for themselves. Take care. :-)
LeoRikimaru 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
MrJeg16 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LeoRikimaru Ditto to you my friend. Do me a favor and go to India first and visit the slums and then go see the home of the dying next before you say anything again.
Getting your info from Hitchens is not the greatest thing. Like I said, I've read his books and watched his docu-films. I've seen both sides of the coins sort of speak. And there's nothing better or a better teacher than experiencing it for yourself.
I hope they do research it. I did.
MrJeg16 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrJeg16 Firstly, open your eyes. I told you to stop using that non-point. It only serves to make you look silly.
Secondly, you know nothing about me. I didn't even mention being against religion yet you're the one who dragged it in here. I would like everyone to see that it wasn't I who dragged religion into this. It was you.
Finally, I did my own research separate from Hitchens. Unlike you I don't just take peoples word for it. I've said this through-out, are you illiterate?
That is all. :-)
LeoRikimaru 2 weeks ago
IIF you do not encourage a plant growing and plant using culture for your people to heal and get better, what are you doing???
101101101777 3 weeks ago
Theresa was not a friend of the poor she was a friend of poverty.
reveivl 1 month ago
@suzannezel You have my thumbs up good sir.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
This is whi I'm proud to be agnostic!
BayAreaOrBust 1 month ago
I wils Hitches was in this debate, it would have been quite short
jelzap 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 What's the worst thing about Public School is that even though your kids are going to Private Schools and you're paying for it, the government still makes you pay your tax to public schools, regardless if your kids are enrolled there or not.
In the Bronx there's a lot of low income students in Private Schools or Chartered Schools. They do have programs to assist.
Agree, public schools are failing our kids in so many levels.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
Comment removed
MrJeg16 1 month ago 17
@MrJeg16
You're simplifying things and being hateful by calling Hitchens a 'druggie'. It's not a very good reason to be opposed to someone. He wasn't causing suffering for the sake of getting off on it, that'd be Mother Teresa.
ScissorHand26 1 month ago
@ScissorHand26 You said I'm being hateful, when all the stuff he wrote were hateful and he got away with it without using any cited sources. Even he admitted that he enjoys being under the influence and partying with celebrities every night. He even said that he writes better when he's under the influence.
As far as not causing any suffering, he never did anything to those who are suffering. He just basically getting rich and more arrogant.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrJeg16 you're stupid.
Stickmaleboy 1 month ago
Comment removed
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 The only real statement Hitchens made about Anna Nicole Smith was one of pity for a thoroughly flawed human being: /watch?v=miURZSdopf4
The fact you would have a problem with that as well as the art of debate is a very revealing statement on your mind-set and needs no further comment.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru TMZ showed that he partied with her and expressed how she was a sex goddess. This was in 2007 right before Smith died.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 So wait, you're having a go at Hitchens for calling her sexy and having a social life?
Really?
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Nope, he praises those who are reckless and addicts, probably because he could relate to her.
Social Life compare to someone who has given her life in service.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 At no point has he "praised" addicts, he has only ever suggested he enjoys partying. What you just stated is a fabricated assumption you have come to without any research whatsoever, you should be rather ashamed.
As for Teresa, she obtained vast wealth and didn't use it to radically improve the care given except when it came to her own welfare. This isn't my opinion, this is a fact and easily confirmed by any search engine of your choice.
Do you really want to carry on?
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Funny how you said I've fabricated assumption and come to it without any research whatsoever.
If you read Hitchens books you'll see no footnotes, no workcites, and no credible sources. So fabrication and assumption is Hitchen's work, not mine. If you doubt what I say then read SPIN March 2008 where he openly admitted that most of his works were done while he was under the influence.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 Who cares? Who cares if he was under the influence? Francis Crick was high on LSD when he made he breakthroughs in genetics, he got a Nobel prize for it and you're going to criticize Hitchens for drinking abit?
Oh and I think you'll find Hitchens used many citations including the most devastating citations of all, Teresa's own words. Nothing is more damning to her defense.
If you are to continue I insist you comment on her finances, otherwise this discussion is over.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Why not? You and him have criticize MT for her work, but neither one of you have ever volunteer or seen any of the works she's done. Self indulgence doesn't compare to self sacrifice. So what if Crick won the nobel prize, Obama won it too and he didn't do crap.
Sure, show me some of the words MT said that would be devasting. I have a thousant more to that. And I'll show you the claim that Hitchens said MT has over 50 mil. stash in a Swiss Bank. MT died and not a penny to her name
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 She had millions at her disposal that didn't go toward the people she cared for, what exactly did she sacrifice?
I can't believe I need to state this but there are different Nobel prizes. Obama got the Nobel peace prize for rigorously promoting the disarming of nuclear weapons and exceptional diplomacy.
Sorry? She died with not a penny to her name? Cite your source, I'll wait.
Oh and as for quotes...
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
There are many quotes like this. She relished in their suffering because she felt it brought them closer to God.
If you don't see how twisted that is I pity you.
Would you like more quotes from her?
Perhaps from people who witnessed the disgraceful misconduct carried out under her watch towards patients?
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LeoRikimaru "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
Good quote there. Mother was saying that she sees the face of Jesus among the poor and from them the world can learn humility, humbleness, and self sacrifice.
Let me ask you this: 30,000 volunteered total and most of them were touched. These are people who were doctors, nurses, teachers and such.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 This isn't a Bible quote MrJeg, you can't reinterpret it as metaphorical just because its more palatable to you.
I see, and all 30,000 of those met Teresa, had in-depth conversations with her, had meticulous knowledge of her finances and witnessed first hand how she operated on a regular basis did they?
Really? Because I imagine a benevolent and clever God would go:
"So... reusing needles during an aids epidemic with a decent knowledge of medicine... walk me through this."
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru She always had a full plate. It's more like small talk. You could ask any of the volunteers and sisters how the finances goes. For me if I needed antibiotics I would take it from their funds and purchase it myself.
As for needles, in the Philippines we used the same needles thru.out the 80's and 90's. Doctors here use diseninfectants to clean them. I'm not sure how it goes today w/mt, I'm sure they are not doing it now
They reused needles in 70's-80's in developed countries
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 Could I Jeg? Could I really? Would they actually have the faintest clue how much they were being given to work with and how much was available? How would they have access to that information? You're assuming they got access to the funds instead of getting allocated them.
As for the needles, that is not the same as doing it during a local aids epidemic and you bloody know it. She chose to do that knowing the risk despite having the funds not to. Why?
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru As for the needles they only get disinfected, most 3rd world countries including mine does that, so it's not out of the ordinary.
And yes, you could ask the sisters and volunteers. One thing about MT was that people always ask her this and that and I remember MT would say to them, "Come and See." So if you want the real FACTS, "Come and See." Meaning go volunteer.
I've read Hitchens books too esp. on God is not great and his writings on MT and I even watched his docu-film...
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 Not during a bloody aids epidemic. You do not use the same needles when one of the deadliest viruses in the world is skyrocketing.
Stop trying to cover up the fact she used barely any of her funds to help the needy by saying "come and see". If I volunteered now how would that give me more insight into the events of decades passed? It wouldn't, it is a bogus stance to take.
The only defense you have are star-struck volunteers who met her briefly and had no info beyond that.
Thats it.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Hear/say or getting your info. from a false writer will not give much insight. You can go see how donation is spent.
As for the needles and aids epidemic back then it was more of a western thing. It didn't hit us till the early 90's. Westerners like US, Europeans and Australians brought STD's to us.
I went to the clinic yesterday and you won't believe that in my country they only disinfect the needle. We are not like you westerners where you throw away needles like candies.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 Hear/say and church propaganda is exactly where you get your notions of a saintly woman.
"AIDS is caused by the Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which originated in non-human primates in Sub-Saharan Africa and was transferred to humans during the late 19th or early 20th century."
That's extremely ill-advised for obvious reasons.
Mother Teresa had more than enough money to buy more needles to minimize risk or contagion during an aids epidemic.
Answer me this: Why didn't she?
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru I know where AIDS originated from and how it's transmitted, but you missed the point to what I said when I told you that poor countries like ours do not throw away needles and even the rich hospitals here reuse needles. MT's was just doing what other hospitals were doing. All I said was that Europe and US brought STD's to us.
BTW MT was the very FIRST to open up a hospice for AIDS victims and they didn't use mask nor gloves. Also, NOT ONE has EVER gotten AIDS from her facilities.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 Thats because even the rich hospitals have incredibly financial strains and if we're honest aren't anywhere near western medical standards.
But Tereasa had more than enough cash and knew very well sharing needles increased risks of contamination.
So I repeat my question; Why didn't she buy more with her vast donations instead of opening monastries?
Please refrain from going on tangents.
LeoRikimaru 4 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru You seem to like to talk about cash. Do you know how much medication is over here? You westerners complain about the high cost of medications, here it's 4x's more. The cost of hospitalization is lot more. We don't have free healthcare like you do.
If you want to know what they do with the money go check it out. You need to stop acting like a parrot to Hitchens.
This debated ended when you have no proof at all other than what another atheist like yourself wrote.
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru BTW.. what did you think about when I told you that NO SUCH THING as anyone getting infected with AIDS or STD's in any of MT's facilities. Also, why aren't you giving credit to MT for opening up the FIRST AIDS hospice in the US where her sisters were not afraid to touch AIDS victims and they didn't wear mask. Unlike you westerners who cast them out.
Give credit where it's do or are you too much of a hater to do that?
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrJeg16 Sorry, whats your point here? We have better healthcare? Yes, we do. Well done.
I was meant to reply to "Also, NOT ONE has EVER gotten AIDS from her facilities."?
I didn't know I had to point out that people had aids before they went to the facilities that care for aids thus making the statement fairly laughable.
I didn't know I was meant to actually thank someone who helped spread aids for treating it too.
I thought you were being ironic. I obviously over-credited your intellect.
LeoRikimaru 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LeoRikimaru 1st You know NOTHING about the things MT does
2nd you said she built Monastery & you can't even give me one name & where
3rd you try to tell me about AIDS epidemic & you can't even prove that MT facilities is a contributing factor to that
4th you said she use the same needles, I've proven to you that all hospitals here use the same needle
5th You need to stop acting like a Parrot for Hitchens that's where getting your source. I know Hitchen & you're quoting him
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru cont...
There's a lot that Hitchens said that is not true. I can tell you are echoing what he wrote.
I'm not going to continue this debate because I can tell you a lot of things about MT and her Missionaries of Charity and you'll try and find ways to your argument. The only thing I'm going to tell you is for you to go Volunteer.
I've met a couple of atheists and agnostics who were volunteers (no lie) and you would be welcome. MT welcomes all people of different belief....
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 I'm not echoing anything, I've looked into it.
This debate ended when you purposefully deflected my question.
LeoRikimaru 3 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru You've looked into it????
Let me know where and when.
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
A lady from India:
You are wrong, I am from India and I believe I know more about her. Your point is that she let the poor and sick suffer? But do you know anything about the places where she treated the sick and the poor?
Here in India, Poor and Sick people were never attended to and they were just let to die like animals but Mother Teresa out of compassion and love got them in a Home and cared for them, Many recovered and many did not. She did what she could and for that I respect her
MrJeg16 3 weeks ago
@LeoRikimaru cont...
I can tell you there's no better teacher than experience itself. Since I've read Hitchens' books and watched his documentary I'm going to ask you to be fair and watch BBC's Documentary on MT of Calcutta and CNN's MT.
If you have enough money go to India. First go to the slums so you can see how people live there the go to the leper colony and then go to MT's Home for the Dying. Tell the sisters you want to volunteer.
If you still think the same way, I respect that.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 cont...(final post)
I highly recommend you purchase this video: watch?v=b8w81qOc5nU
I'm done. God Bless.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru cont. If the poor didn't exist or any unfortunate soul would they or even you know what humility means.
“I am not sure exactly what heaven will be like, but I know that when we die and it comes time for God to judge us, he will not ask, 'How many good things have you done in your life?' rather he will ask, 'How much love did you put into what you did?”
― Mother Teresa
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Have you read Hitchens' brother's writing. Totally opposite of him, and he does use workcite and the end of his book. Unlike this self indulgent jerk.
This guy is dead already. I'm positive liberal Hollywood would make a movie out of him. He is like christ to the atheist.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit Well thats abit unfair comparing him to Jesus.
I mean for starters we can prove Hitchens existed. :-)
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Hitchens existed for himself. Jesus exist thru. even outside the Bible: Josephus (Historian) writing, conversion of Pilate's wife Claudia and later one Pilate. His Apostles existed because we know where each one is buried.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit I think if Hitchens were alive he'd say he existed for the endless, dogged pursuit of information, for the joys of an intelligent conversation and the occasional wild party which he enjoyed so much.
No, sorry. You are not classifying the Bible as a history text book. Either find another, more plausible source not riddled with incest and the dead rising en mass or don't reference Jesus in this debate at all.
I don't reference things to you without proof, I demand the same respect.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru For crying out loud, you nag about them not sleeping on a decent bed. you are ignorant of the poverty over there. over 90% of the people over there are in deep poverty and they are sleeping on cardboards, dirty floors, and trash.
You claim Mother made a lot of money, that money went back to the people and not to her pocket. Sure she opened up more facilities to help out the poor and not to build her mansions. BTW the RCC only take a small part of donation the rest is distributed
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit That does *not* excuse having those conditions waiting for people who need urgent medical treatment and care when you have the financial power to improve them.
That is comparable to me laying a tramp with a serious open leg wound on a urine soaked mattress because that is what hes used to.
That money went into creating more monasteries and promoting her faith, very little went toward the needy.
She considered her faith more important than human beings, period.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Can you prove that? This is a religious order that took 3 vows. Lands were donated to her and that in turn was given to help the poor. As far as serious open leg wound. Nobody cared to close it up, except for MT who didn't charge them a penny.
Don't talk about how money is spent. In the US right now, I'm forced to pay for someones abortion and it's not even my choice. People choose to donate to her.
Serving People is her faith. What have you done?
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit You have *completely* overlooked my point. I will phrase it this time in the form of a question for you to answer:
Why did she use her large fortune amassed from countless donations to build monasteries in her name rather than to improve medical facilities and better care for patients?
To answer the question you posed to me; What I can with as much money as I can spare.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@Naturalhit, Your comment is full of ignorance. You say that MT gave her money back to the people, then used the excuse the that conditions were poor because of the poverty in the area, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! MT had wealth and influence, yet these people she was supposed to be helping and taking donations for still lived in horrible conditions with little medical attention. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF HER BEING THEIR AND TAKING DONATIONS?
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent Good point, well made.
I'll be interested to hear Naturalhits reply which will of course be meticulously researched and thoroughly thought out.
Natural? :-)
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru, I don't think it's the denial that's perplexing, it's the admission of some of the things she did THEN still not putting two and two together. Thanks for adding some rational thought to the page.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent I guess they want to hold onto this icon that they're willing to overlook tiny things like facts.
Ha, why not? Debates are fun.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LeoRikimaru I'll be interested to hear Naturalhits reply which will of course be meticulously researched and thoroughly thought out
Bless you my son.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent MT HAD WEALTH AND INFLUENCE???? SHE DIED WITHOUT A PENNY TO HER NAME!!!!! Hitchens said to Lamount that she has 50 million in the bank. When she died he found out she was penniless - he never retracted what he said.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit, Good lord, denial and ignorance are great bedfellows. Lets say you're right about her dying a poor women, that still doesn't change the fact that she TOOK MILLIONS IN DONATIONS AND WAS APART OF A POWERFUL AND WEALTHY CHURCH!!!! She took millions to help these people, yet none of it went to decent beds, better facility's or even medical care. BTW the Pope confirmed that he moved MT money after she died into the Vatican. Nice try buddie.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent TOOK MILLIONS IN DONATIONS AND WAS APART OF A POWERFUL AND WEALTHY CHURCH!!!!
So what, people decided to donate what is that so hard to believe. She didn't waste the money on herself. BTW. she doesn't receive that much money at all. Ilike to know where you guys are getting this millions of dollars donation? She's lucky if she gets an average of 5 thousand a day. Very few donate millions and if they do that goes to buying food and medications
God sake go to india and look
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit, So what? Really? IF she's taking millions of dollars to help these people, then why isn't the result state of the art medical care and a decent bed to sleep in? BTW SHE pointed out the fact that she received millions and so did her Church, she often got donations from the powerful and the wealthy. You also keep ignoring that her very church had millions in revenue. It's also on record that she used the money to expand her missionary, not help the people she was there to help.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheDalinkwent "IF she's taking millions of dollars to help these people, then why isn't the result state of the art medical care and a decent bed to sleep in?"
You're kidding right? I mean I tore my achilles tendon and I couldn't afford a 60k surgery for it. Do you think that an average of 5 thousand a day would buy you a state of the art facility? India's own government can't even provide that for its own people.
Simple answer Church keeps 10% to pay for things and the rest goes back.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent Watch BBC Mother Teresa documentary if you are not planning on going to India and see it for yourself. Atleast the BCC is credible source. They pretty much go thru. the day to day activity of MT.
Only a few wealthy people donated and they don't donate continuously.
You want me to tell you how the money is handled too since I've seen it? You'd be surprise how MT doesn't even touch it, the volunteers do.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@MrJeg16, BS and no action is pretty much sums up Mother Teresa. She was getting millions of pounds in donations yet barely any of it was getting to the sick people she was supposed to be helping. Many of her defenders even admitted that she saw the beauty is suffering which gave her little incentive to actually change these people lives.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent What's up with you Brit. I have a simple answer to you: "GO VOLUNTEER!!!!"
The idiot Hitchens you hold so dear has never step foot to any of her institution. He only interviewed a Doctor who was a former volunteer and wishes to run her place like a business by making patients pay, an angry volunteer who got kicked out and Sis. Virgin who was NEVER a Nun at all.
Now there were 30,000 other volunteers he didn't bother to interview because he won't get the answer he wants.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16, By that logic your point is just as moot, seeing THAT YOU HAVEN'T VOLUNTEERED EITHER!!! I'm using logic and reason to come to my conclusions. MT was a servant of the wealthy and most powerful church in the world, yet they couldn't provide decent beds and better facilities for the people they were supposed to help? Not to mention she took MILLIONS in donations, yet nothing changed but the bodycount growth.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent You said I've never volunteered, where did you get that idea??? If your complain is that they couldn't provide decent beds then by all means go over there and donate. Bodycount growth??? MT took the dying off the streets and gave them a place to die with dignity. If it weren't for her their bodies would decay in the streets.
RCC is a huge and powerful church, but they are the most giving too
Nothing change by you if theirs no action. Truth is in the experience, go volunteer
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16, So if Mother Teresa was only taking these people to a run down building with little in medical supply or even decent beds to sleep in, why was she taking millions in donations FOR THOSE VERY PEOPLE? she was apart of the most powerful and wealthy church in the world, she really couldn't have done more for those people BESIDES simply giving them a place to die? What nonsense you spew.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@MrJeg16, So you personally witness MT work? That was my point.
TheDalinkwent 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent Yes, I live in the Philippines and I've been to 4 of her institutions here. I've also seen her in 95-97. MT gets up 3:30am does rosary eat oatmeal and banana, at 5am goes out to the leper colony and see how they are doing and give them medication and sack of rice, 6am goes to orphanage ctr. 11am goes to home of dying and stays there the whole day. 2pm goes to mass. 3pm talks with the sisters and volunteers, 3-11 works, eats rice(no meat) 1 or 2am goes to sleep and repeats routine
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16 I've never met MT, but I've volunteered too under Sis. Mirmala. Good deal. A lot of ignorant peole who thinks tht they know everything because of what they've read. They never EVER bothered to see it for themselves.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@TheDalinkwent You know what's a waste of money???
Buying someone's book and making him rich and supporting his drugs habit and his exclusive parties, mansion, and lavish life style.
"Be careful NOT to call anything Good, Evil, and anything Evil, Good my friend."
MrJeg16 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheDalinkwent You know what's a waste of money???
Buying someone's book and making him rich and supporting his drugs habit and his exclusive parties, mansion, and lavish life style.
"Be careful NOT to call anything Good, Evil, and anything Evil, Good my friend."
MrJeg16 1 month ago
The only way for anyone to know the truth and come to a conclusion is to go to Calcutta and volunteer for several weeks.
I gaurantee no one will walk out of there thinking the same thing.
adreecage 2 months ago 25
This has been flagged as spam show
@adreecage
I agree, most likely they will find it a worse situation then they thought, and an even large waste of charity dollars for services rendered.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Nope, they'd walk out knowing the hard work and how stupid they are for not knowing the truth. They've only learnt it from Hitchens who never met MT nor been to her facilities.
adreecage 1 month ago 5
@adreecage
Well, the indian fellow in the video would disagree with you, and so would many others who viewed what she was doing against what she could be doing and reviewed her motivations and justifications to act such.
The funds she took and where they came from and the amount of good that could have been done versus the ideological 'help' she gave are simply the problems.
It was irrelevant what she believed or the truth of it, it is her actions and motivations which people object.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Indian doctor was one of Hitchens henchmen who he used in his book against MT.He claims to have worked with MT, but this doctor was trying to run her facility his way and wants to start charging those who can pay.MT said no she doesn't want charity to turn into a busines.BTW 30,000 other volunteers would disagree with him.
You mean atheist ideology in a secular fashion, while MT did what Christ would've done
Truth here, do it your way if you disagree. So far no action from you guys
adreecage 1 month ago
@adreecage
What kind of action? you mean donating to charities that help people get healthcare that don't take money from despots or launder it into the catholic church? because I already do that.
I find her beliefs about suffering being good and contraception evil simply antisocial and the actions she took on that motivation simply objectionable and a waste of monies which could have done so much good but instead were squandered on psuedo-help.
30,000 Catholics can* be wrong.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl contraception being evil is simply antisocial to you..that's according to your liberal mindset.If you and others strongly belief in handing out contraceptions to control these poor people then by all means do it, but we know that contraception has nothing to do with being antisocial.That just a pervertion among those who preach shacking up without responsibility of marraige in order to avoid family creation
I would rather give my money to MT who would not use for herself like Hitchens
adreecage 1 month ago
@adreecage
No, it's not my mindset, it's an objective fact that people have sex and those who don't have contraception available will have higher rates of teen pregnancy. These increased rates of teen pregnancy have a direct connection to increases in inner city and low income crime rates as well as a decrease in standard of living in the lives of everyone involved.
You can blame kids for having sex, but that kind focus does nothing to help the problem, because they are kids.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Liberals have tried to block abstinance programs in public schools for many years. When Pres. Bush stepped into office abstinance was finally passed and it was thought in Public Schools and teen pregnancies went down tremendously. Now this is nothing new, Private Schools like Catholic and other denominations have been teaching this all the time and pregnancies among teens were low.
There's alot more to this dynamic than we like to think. There will always be crimes among low incomers
adreecage 1 month ago
@Harizl
continue...
But believe me when I tell you that white color crimes among the rich far exceed that of low incomers. They just don't get reported and they can away with it thru. loop holes in the system.
adreecage 1 month ago
@adreecage
1) Liberals have blocked Abstinence-ONLY* programs, because they simply are less effective and teach kids less. If you wish people to be uneducated about sex when they do start having sex then you are simply negligent or ignorant of human sexual history.
2) White Collar* crimes are irrelevant in this discussion because there is no correlation between teen pregnancy and white collar crime.There will always be crime, but preventing unplanned pregnancy is a preventable factor.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl 1. Not true-Liberals have blocked Abstinence from being taught and prefer to teach our kids how to slip on condoms and use birth control pills. Sex among our teens have caused them to be confused, immature, and hurt. Try going to a Private Christian School and listen as to how sex education. Teens are better educated and happier in their future. They are far more responsible.
2. You said Low Incomers cause more crimes, I simply point out to you White Color crime far exceeds this.
adreecage 1 month ago
@Harizl Have you read Time's gallop poll for 2007? I believe it came out sometime in March or June..not sure. Times reported that teens in public schools are having less since abstinence program was included in schools. I agree, that was something Private Schools have been teaching all the time and have resulted good.
I agree with Obama on Charter Schools if people don't want Private Christian schools. Public School ='s FAIL
They allow teens to get an abortion without Parents' consent.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16
How many low income youths go to private school?
You are conflating things as well as ignoring AGAIN that those programs are not simply abstinence ONLY*, any good sexual education program stresses the importance of abstinence, but also teaches about contraception and how to properly protect yourself.
Lets just stop all contraception and abortion as well as non-abstinence-only education and see how awesome the statistics start looking and how much better the world becomes.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl We have low income family members coming to our school. We get funded by gov. to help youth who got kicked out of public school. Our school is more structure, rigorous, and we get parents involved with their kids.
Why not abstinence type programs, when it's clear Public Liberal run schools are failing. Sorry, but wouldn't you rather know if your kids are having an abortion and the public schools doesn't tell you about it?
The world hasn't gotten better. It's run by rich governments
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16
I would rather know that my kids understand how to use a condom and how birth control works then simply 'don't have sex'. I actually think it's a disservice and failure to educate when they are taught like that. Shall we tell people 'just don't do math' as well?
As for the American school system, I'm not from America, I'm from a place that actually reforms it's failing systems instead of just privatizing them which costs everyone more in the end.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl So where are you from? I notice that those I debate on MT are British or are British decent or fomer British occupied country. I guess it has something to do with the support for Hitchens who btw hates his own country. I apologize if you're not.
Here in America condoms are hand out to kids as young as 4th grader (9yo). BTW my tax money pays for those condoms and their abortion. I would rather teach my kids than let liberal schools do it.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16
Hitchens became a American Citizen, if you think where you are born has some kind of relevancy to your chosen ideological preference, it's simply silly. Also, he's dead so use the proper past-tense.
In America, the conservative juggernaut is progressively defunding local police forces and fire fighting, public schooling, planned parenthood, and any other social safety net which does not help the well-off. Do you think this is wise? because to an outside observer it's lunacy.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Yes, past-tense is correct. He did past away recently, rest his soul (if he believes in one). I live in US too, and I go back forth between countries so yes I know what you mean
Public service like police, fire fighters, teachers and such are running the states down with their massive pension plans and pay. As for PP, I hope they fall off the face of the earth. They are not only making money off of us tax payers but are also making money selling parts from aborted fetus. Just goole it
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16
If you think the pension plans of public servants are an issue, then you are simply incorrect. The cost of those services have been overblown by politicians supported by corporate interests wanting to privatize them for profit. Your country is being ruined by horrible lack of campaign finance reform, lack of enforcement of corruption, and the results of anti-regulatory lobbying.
The cost of the red-herring issues that are blamed, there are insignificant.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Since I currently live in Calif. Let's take a look at this state as an example. There's a fiscal deficit of 60 bill. when Arnold was gov. The problems are union liberals who support a liberal democratic party. A retired police chief has a pension worth 8 mill. Same thing goes for Fire Chief, Teachers, and so on. Now if you have a deficit in the billions and all these bloated pensions and highly paid union public workers what do you think is going to happen soon?
Think Greece.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@MrJeg16
California is a mess, has been long before now. You have massive amounts of wasted tax dollars going to huge numbers of issues and money-sinks. The amount of reform is obscene, but if you think those large pensions are going to cost you, wail till you see the pension plans of the CEO's you will have when you privatize those services, and the lack of any kind of benefits for those now non-union workers who are at the bottom of the ladder. Realistic outcomes from bad options.
Harizl 1 month ago
@Harizl Yeah, definately agree with you on that.
You take care my friend.
MrJeg16 1 month ago
@Harizl I would just slap that pudgy face of that Indian Doctor. You can hear the jealously from that ass.
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@Naturalhit Your viewpoint is not surprising.
Violence over reason seems to be the rule for your kind.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
@LeoRikimaru Violence over reason ????
Are you personally attacking me now?
Naturalhit 1 month ago
@adreecage
Actually how about people do some research rather than having to go all the way down there and see. A lot of this happened in the past, do you recommend a time machine? It seems there is more than enough information to go on to determine whether this lady's actions were ethical.
ScissorHand26 1 month ago
@ScissorHand26 You don't need a time machine. What Mother Teresa has set is still being done today. And you don't have to go to Calcutta, Mexico, LA, Bronx, and so forth still has Missionaries of Charity facilities.
But Calcutta is where everybody should go anyway to really experience what MT went thru.
adreecage 1 month ago
JESUS CHRIST GAVE the CATHOLIC CHURCH the gift of GOVERNMENT ON EARTH. Mother Teresa is a TESTIMONY of CHRIST MISSION here on Earth and the CATHOLIC CHURCH has the DUTY of confirming JESUS WILL.
antoniomiguelito 2 months ago 2
Why don't they have these kind of television shows in America? This is a television show right? This would definitely educate people on different religious and non-religious perspectives.
necronomicon009 2 months ago
@necronomicon009 Because one of the aims of government is to restrict its peoples ability to form reasoned and informed opinions, thus allowing them to do as they please in privacy
Some governments are better at exorcising control over this than others.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
It does not really matter if Teresa gets “sainthood”. It is only a title given to the dead by a corrupt and failing system(the vatican). A title given to people who in life either through their actions or inaction allowed thousands to needlessly suffer and/or die to further their delusional belief system. So it kind of fits. ;O)
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 2 months ago
Why do catholics want other mortals to make decisions for them? It is just not possible for the pope to pretend he is speaking god's word. There is no god anyway!
577666 2 months ago 2
I just wanted to see Hitch appear in the audience,put his hand up at the end, then see the fear in that odious woman's eyes as she has to listen to her religion been torn a new one by someone who actually knows what he's talking about and has written proper books on it, rather than the author of such bollocks as " Venus Envy", "Glitter", "Desire" and fucking "Sparkles"!!!!! FFS... who thought anyone would give a fuck what she thought?
richardellipsis 3 months ago 2
@richardellipsis Sparkles? Sounds like the name of an infants book about a magical talking dragon.
LeoRikimaru 1 month ago
How can you not invite Hitchens to a debate about mother theresa? Probably because if they would have had invited him, he would have broken their brains into chemical waste.
TheSpassy 3 months ago 2
Huh? Where is Hitchens?
MrEstarmes 3 months ago
@focusedfizzer Actually MT was suffering from a congestive heart failure and she never stopped working. As a former volunteer try this at her home for the dying: 1 Getting up 4am 2 Eating only banana and oatmeal 3 Going to the dying patients and cleaning their feces and vomit and then feeding them 4 Administering medication to them 5 Feeding them if they can still eat 6 Talking and praying with them 7 This is an all day thing 8 Remove the dead and perform death ritual according to their faith
Naturalhit 3 months ago
This was supposed to be about Mother Theresa and it ended up just being Catholic bashing. Many of the real reasons for their anger were nothing to do weith |Mother Theresa but more to do with defending Calcuttas image or fear of more Hindus converting to Catholicism.
22grena 4 months ago
I'm glad I got to watch all three parts. The Hindu fellow brought up Stephanihc (sp?) He could also have brought up the founder of Opus Dei, Jose Maria Escriva or something like that, another 'orse's arse who was given the fast track to sainthood bhy J2P2. If that a**hole is in heaven, I don't want to go there...
timparcival 4 months ago
I love how the ppl...the indian and the white feminist lady absolutely DOMINATED the entire conversation refusing to let anyone finish a thought! sighs...how unfortuante....
lexibabylove 4 months ago
WTF adult exchange of views? Yeah adults exchanged their childish views about their magical beliefs
annata12 5 months ago
louise looked uncomfortable and was very defensive. i would love to see more debates with her.
nem700 6 months ago
@nem700 why? She's clearly a fucking idiot.
KillTheStranger 5 months ago
Just for the record, as at July 2011 The Order (of which Motheresa led) is now being investigated for child abuse and financial irregularity. The Indian government is now looking carefully at the Order because it is becoming an embarassment to India.
kirked007 7 months ago 3
@ChrisMika90 true
natmanprime 7 months ago
where is the end of the show? anyone please.... Thanks
vrun 8 months ago
Comment removed
groobags 9 months ago
the hindu guy and benjamin talked real sense!... no one enjoys/embraces suffering (it may be considerd, that those who wish to be at some-ones deathbed and not help, have very twisted, unwell thoughts, this is only ever considered good when shrouded in religion of any kind) and no matter what faith people have, there is good. To convert some-one at thier deathbed, is to capitalise on that persons fear of death itself.
groobags 9 months ago
@groobags well said.
Griesmayer 6 months ago
This proves what is already known that the world hates the things of christ and his church if they were discusing any other religion the debate would not be so heated
williemetoyer1 9 months ago
Does Mother T deserve sainthood? Does it really matter? Not at all, sainthood is a human vehicle not divine and means absolutely nothing.
TheDano1947 9 months ago
"That was an interesting, adult exchange of views."
No it wasn't. Most of the discourse was simply baseless, sectarian, immovable, superstitious assertions and corresponding contradictions--not arguments. The only voices of reason were silenced, and the entire debate was a disgrace.
The Catholic woman especially voiced a classical theist falsehood: "This is beyond criticism simply by virtue of being called religion."
I look forward to the day when people like her are no longer around.
Anomalous59 10 months ago 2
I think this guy witht he red hair should do it blond.
barrigasduele1895 1 year ago
Christ Louise Bagshaw makes my blood run cold, i'm praying for Christopher Hitchens to walk on from backstage
Curtis19851 1 year ago 2
Louise Bagshaw is an appalling twatwrangler.
gregstaddon 1 year ago
jeesus, i wouldn't take home an open pay packet to that bagshawe one, if mother teresa is in heaven i hope she's looking after the poor bloke who married her.
CountryQuestion 1 year ago
That catholic bitch is so self righteous it isn't funny.
cujomade101 1 year ago 2
@cujomade101 Language is a barrier.
oYoYebutu 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
not bieng funny but blondie in the middle looks like one arrogant bitch
danny123xvz 1 year ago 86
@danny123xvz yes and she also seems to be sexually unsatisfied
LionEntity 1 year ago
@LionEntity Looks like the opposite to me.
oYoYebutu 11 months ago
@danny123xvz picture her in lingerie........black......holding a dildo.....lips parted slightly with an expression that says "do your worst".........shes looking good now eh????
lumpfish99 5 months ago
@lumpfish99 She's a British MP. Plenty of plastic surgery. Sigh ... I wish our MPs as delicious eye-candy. Send us some eye candy, not nuns!
mohanbishnoi 4 months ago
@danny123xvz Well she IS catholic ;)
CalamityM 4 months ago
@danny123xvz a very arrogant bitch indeed, who obviously hasn't been having any sex. just from the way she speaks and moves it's so obvious that she is sexually repressed.
LionEntity 3 months ago
@LionEntity Of course she is sexually repressed. She's catholic!
MissMidoria 3 months ago
@danny123xvz Agreed. Her demeanour and the constant rocking is a sign of disrespect for the speaker against her. Also how come people can never come back with a better argument, when challenged then "can you let me finish"?
ringforrohan 2 months ago
@danny123xvz but very hot
barajas673402 2 months ago
@barajas673402 meh
LukeHolder1 2 months ago
crap
duboracle 2 years ago
Benjamin Zephaniah realy wackes the holy ghost, he rapes god.
Seaches enterance at all children.
Satans ghost in materials.
When whil it be his own body?
I am him trhats it, the echo man
duboracle 2 years ago
@duboracle What the fuck?
jussts 1 year ago 2
image is that discusion ?
duboracle 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Why in this day&age we still waste time discussing religious celebrities & so called "sainthood" ?
Helping is not about charity which perpetuates poverty & recruits new converts among the defenseless and vulnerable. Conversions constitute one illusion replacing another without solving anything. Is Jesus better connected than Muhammad or Shiva?
Only golden rule and human solidarity can help poor TO BECOME INDEPENDENT from dehumanizing & humiliating giveaways by the filthy-guilty rich.
mironowak 2 years ago 24