......(personally i'm glad that we have a black president. that in itself is a great thing, no matter what shit we go through. that's a huge step forward for this backwards country.even if it turns out he doesn't do anything for the people.)
can i just say? Ms Cohen reeeally shouldn't have straightened her hair so much. it looks so dry...
And I thought people voted for Obama because he was going to institute Universal Health Care, he certainly made people believe he was going to, what the hell is this.
He promised to reform Healthcare but was - if memory serves - non committal about Universal Healthcare during his presidential campaign. Two very different things, but understandable why people confused the two.
Considering the massive resistance he's facing from lobbyists and corporate shills in both houses, it's not a surprise he didn't commit.
Hospitals pay NO taxes. In Cleveland, you have two of the most renowned hospitals, making hundreds of millions through profit and philanothrohy (tax evasion), so none of their profits are available for local schools, free clinics or drug/alcohol treatment. They have helped turn Cleveland into a ghetto town, yet most of their health care facilities reject the poor and uninsured.
i love how all of you say NO SOCIALISM NO SOCIALISM!! GO FOR PRIVATE insurance you guys are fucking morons... your schools are socialism, your roads or socialism, your libraries are socialism, and the list goes on, private insurance yeah totally trust corprates who will probably rip us off... nice job american pigs
the Nurses and "activists" need to appeal to the public more and to Democrats behind closed doors a little less, because that's where the power is as far as votes go in Congress. Make them fear for their jobs on the "left".
something is fishy about both ladies. Where do they really stand? They seem to be ready to pass anything, no matter how weak to look good. And they defend a lot of the compromise.
@Renegen1 "To look good"? What are you talking about? The one of the left came out clearly in favor of single payer, but stated that in the meantime, she'll take anything that helps mend our broken system, and get more treatment to the people who need it most.
No I'm sorry, dont get me wrong I dont mean to sound harsh.
But I live in the real world, and the yes, that is about correct, both in the context of you're previous comments, and that of the good of mankind.
Is it fair to say in the future, we wont need doctors as machines will do that for us... oh with the exeption of ...80 - 90% of the worlds population... can you really say that will be for the good of mandkind?
Dear Amarx, No worries bro, I don't mind stiff competition about an idea. I still don't follow. Let me use the first computer as an example. Turing thought that his invention would one day change the world. Your great Grandfather stated, 'This computer costs a million dollars, only the richest one percent will be able to afford them.' Now the third world has cheap computer technology many times greater than Turings first machine. This too will be true of AI doctor Apps.
Thats a sick thought to me, especially within the context of our argument...
Like saying, we dont have to help the millions starving and suffering now, as by the time they die of, the next generation will have slightly better facilities.
Can you not see this from the humans point of view, there are people in the world that need help now, in the US for health reform, as much as any poor person in this world!
Dear Amarx, Heh, sorry bro... I wasn't really arguing against your point of view. Just pointing out that one day the dipshits getting in the way of healthcare will be phased completely out of our society. That's all I was saying. I agree with your ideas about helping folk right now. It would be nice... but if we can't help those alive today... we will be able to help their children (that isn't ideal I know... but it is better than being kicked in the ass with a cold boot.)
Hey dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good argument, although I do come at this from another angle from you.
And I have to say I dont know if it's as simple as to just say one day... as that day has been long in comming.
And what I fear.. Is the enevitable fact, that what is good in this world, would be usurped by the principalities to which we reffer to, I'll give you an example.
Andy Kessler, is he the same as the Kessler of the Germania Lodge in Louisiana?
I kind of understand you're feling on the state of the world. As I can only beleive that you like I was, and many others.
Are ignorant to the imbalances and injustice, we not only find in the 3rd world.
But the rest of it, in all countries, you will find this in the hearts of men, to make others suffer.
The ignorance I reffer to is the fact that 80% of this worlds wealth is controlled by 20% of its' people... and that figure is the same for all countries...
It's horrific when you realise that there is enough money generated by this world each year, that could end world poverty TWICE! (Bob Geldof... not that I like him, but just where it's from)
of the Weekly Standard. The Govn't is the only one who can compete with Insurance Companies who have been preparing for 8 yrs. under Cheney who spent all the money he could with 3 wars & a near depression to "drown the beast" knowing that HCR was coming. We NOW cannot afford to do it & cannot afford not to. Insurance PR says no. I have insurance.
So when we're all forced into buying insurance from the private for-profit industry, will they still deny the amount of claims they do (most b/c of 'too much paperwork') now? How much more is our government, both republican and democrat, going to keep showing its fascism? when a government favors corporations over people that is fascism. sorry folks, but we really weren't ever a democracy, and we sure aren't now. that's been a 'necessary illusion' to 'manufacture consent' of the many.
This health insurance reform, or whatever it's getting called these days is not a bi-partisan issue. Look at how many of these people have taken money from the for-profit health industry. Grassley, Baucus, Obama, Clinton, McCain, etc...And they've all taken a ton in campaign contributions. Obama, newly into office, met in private with officials from the industry numerous times. Why is single-payer not being discussed? Why not any options for the people?
There is no room for gov in health care. Health care is a private matter best handled by individuals. Gov only drives up the cost of health care, and does not increase the quality. I don't want anyone telling me what my health care should be.
@bbburton Your claim is not supported by the facts & history, thus making it more akin to religion - based on faith - than on actual empirical evidence.
European countries like France, Germany and Denmark have full coverage for their citizens that surpasses that of many Americans. Those citizens who come here are appalled by the state of our healthcare.
And just looking at how rates have increased over the years while quality has gone down seems to suggest that markets are not doing their job.
Yeah Mike, I have talked to buh buh buh Burton about his ideas many a time... He just gets to the point of inane douchery and is completely unable to articulate his ideas. He is a koolaid drinking troll. He believes what he believes, and doesn't require a reason to believe what he believes. The guy is absolutely cr... *ahem* mentally ill.
I think he thinks that he might get recognized for his proselytizing here on youtube and someone will make him rich, but i dunno?
@elbowbiter1 I just don't get it, they say that hell is the impossibility of reason, and insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result - which seems to define perfectly this entire "government can't do anything right" Right-wing mantra.
They keep repeating it, but if it's so successful why is no one else emulating it? It just doesn't make any sense.
Dear Mike, Heh ;) I hear ya brother. Don't worry you've already provoked the wrath of the great triple 'b' urton. He'll set you straight by calling you a fuckin' moron and typing at you like you're a fiver year old. He say things like, "socialist medicine doesn't work because socialism is only best when businesses provide the socialism." To which you'll scratch your head and say ain't that doublethink? Then he'll tell you how dumb you are. You are in for a treat my friend.
Duh, duh, asshole, er biter. You've taken up the mantle of being so intellectually superior, you're tripping all over yourself. The fact is, you're incapable of explaining why I, or anyone, should be responsible for your health care. So, biter, tell me how it's okay for the government to take property from someone and give it to another, when anyone who did so would be called a criminal and punished? You have a singular position - I can't steal, but the gov can do it for me, and it's okay.
How stupid can you get?! The purchasing value of the dollar has gone down for the last 95 years, yet you don't see it. You think spending will get you out of debt?! And if the gov only spends more, we'll all be wealthy?! You're not living in the dark ages, you just have your head so far up your ass, you think it's perfectly normal to smell shit wherever you go, and are perplexed when others disagree with you. Education is a wonderful thing, you should try it sometime.
@bbburton Purchasing power is a relative thing. Purchasing power compared to whom? Great Britain? France? Zimbabwe? Not to mention the natural inflation in the economy would have seen the devaluation of the dollar regardless.
I never said that "spending will get you out of debt" but government intervention can reap a savings by forcing insurers to compete.
These are not my estimates but those of economists and experts. Why don't you read up more on it instead of sticking your head in the sand?
You really are a pathetic moron. The purchasing power of dollar in 1913 compared to it's current value has declined drastically. In comparison, today's dollar is worth about $.4 in purchasing power in relation to the purchasing power of the dollar in 1913. Inflation is the result of pumping too many dollars into circulation. Your understanding of economics is pathetic. And forcing insurance companies to do anything except preventing fraud is ludicrous. Competition only happens in a free market.
Your views are so entrenched in dogma & ignorance that it's not worth debating you. But I will point out that your understanding of economics is grossly distorted to suit your ideology.
Even the most efficient economy would still have inflation, it is not solely the "result of pumping too many dollars into circulation."
Inflation is inevitable.
In fact, inflation is preferable over deflation. So the dollar would have lost value over time regardless.
Whoa long debate. I don't know what view you perceive inflation to be inevitable. But saying even the most effective economy would have inflation is certainly false. If we used oil as money we would actually start to have deflation as reserves got lower.
And the old argument for giving raises instead of cuts to legitimize inflation is horrid. Money is intrinsically used as a measurement. To subvert with inflation makes future planning and thus the future dubious. Not to mention theft.
I am not going to claim to be an economist. I have an understanding of economics.
The way I understand it, some inflation is inevitable even if you don't pump more money into an economy. No economy is 100 percent efficient. The most you can do is to stave off excess inflation by adjusting things like interest rates.
If you're versed in economics & I'm wrong, please correct me, provided you give the citations to reputable sources (e.g. Peter Schiff is not a credible economist IMO.)
Ok basics. "Money" is a commodity that becomes accepted because people can trade it to someone else for something else they actually value. If money cannot be printed it must be procured. Any factor that causes the amount of money to become more rare for individuals causes deflation. (its not hard at all)
Fed doesn't technically control interest rates, it only controls the amount of money they print. By printing lots of money, they send interest rates low. So inflation = low interest
Nothing you say contradicts anything I said. Yes money is a commodity that can be traded.
"Any factor that causes the amount of money to become more rare for individuals causes deflation"
And by the same token, any factor that causes the amount of money to become less rare causes inflation: such as printing money, low interests rates or just an excess of capital.
Gold once became devalued from hyperinflation in the 17th century when Spain was hauling tons of it from the Americas.
You were saying that some inflation is inevitable. Thats only true if you can create money with the stroke of a pen or press of a key. If you can do this it's not truly money is simply a currency.
I disagree on the matter that inflation is inevitable. I also argue that inflation is preferable over deflation. In slight quantity (1-2% a year), deflation is preferable as it encourages savings and thus capital.
The best way is to treat money as a unit of measure, thus commodities.
No offense, but I think the ideology behind your economics is showing.
Milton Friedman posited that all inflation is related to monetary policy. My economist of choice Paul Krugman rejects that notion
Krugman also warned against deflation. The problem is (I'm quoting loosely here) is that deflation leads to decreased wages. Thus in a deflationary economy your wages would decrease but debts, like your mortgage stay the same.
I strive to avoid ad hominem. Thus I don't consider any source 100% right or 100% wrong. (Including myself) So I'll talk about the topic on the basis of the topic.
Your argument favors debt. Debt is only good as a cautious investment in a business, outside of this it's either waste or mal investment at best.
With deflation people would try to get rid of debt (which is good). Mortgages would come down as a glut of home with no one buying for force prices to lower. Capital would increase.
I understand what you're saying about deflation. I suppose it could be done in the wake of a major financial collapse where we could start from scratch. Trying to switch gears right now into deflation would - in my estimation - destroy the economy.
Again I reference Paul Krugman's deflation paradox. Paying off debt and saving money are inherently good, but when everyone does it, it kills the economy.
It doesn't kill the economy. Even with everyone seeking thrift people have to buy fundamentals. (Food,shelter,electricity etc) Additionally I cannot find a single civilization example where even the poorest do not "splurge" for entertainment. We aren't robots.
Lots of business based soley on excess would fail or restructure. But this is how better business evolves, and a strong base is built. It doesn't take long either. A year likely, two at the very worst.
"It doesn't kill the economy. Even with everyone seeking thrift people have to buy fundamentals."
An economy is more than just fundamentals. If you want to see 30-40 percent unemployment, by all means, let's do it.
Again I refer you to the deflation paradox and the decade-long economic slump in Japan. See: Krugman.
Methinks you're a little too cavalier re: the impact that this would have. This is where your ideology is showing as you support deflation based more on faith than actual evidence.
Also, what do you think a "destroyed economy" looks like? It doesn't look like Gaza or any warzone. It doesn't even look like Detroit. It looks like everything does now except there isn't really anything new for a year or two. Think of a farm town that seems 5 years behind the city.
If you sustain a depression, then yes bad things can happen. People get frustrated and tensions can flare, resources get lower and bad decisions can lead to civil action and even war.
Anyone who subscribes to the Krugman theory of economics is as big and idiot as he is. Inflation may occur as a result of supply/demand dynamics, but if you don't believe that the inflation we are experiencing today isn't caused by the influx of dollars into the marketplace, your a bigger fool than you sound.
@bbburton Four words: Nobel Prize in Economics. How many do you have? Zero. Guess whose opinion / knowledge I trust more: That's right. [Hint: it's not you.]
Spoken like a true moron; and what contribution did he make in economics that he was recognized for? Explaining patterns of international trade and the geographic concentration of wealth by examining the impact of economies of scale and of consumer preferences for diverse goods and services. Hope you like having your head up the ass of Krugman.
Say what you will, Krugman knows the inside baseball of economics.
He's been right about many things before & since the economic crisis. He was right about the benefits of the stimulus package - something you doomsayers said would never work (and yet take credit for it).
He is not intimidated by your ideologically driven economics.
Economics driven by the likes of Peter Schiff and Glenn Beck, parasites feeding off peoples' fears (which he helps promote) in order to profit off them.
If Krugman was prescient, why did he fail to even recognize the meltdown that was coming? When people like Schiff, Paul, and other Austrian economists warned everyone, where was Krugman? You claim the stimulus package was a great success, yet why is unemployment still hovering at 10%? The deficit has ballooned, the EU is crumbling, consumer prices continue to skyrocket, and yet you support Krugman. A sound currency driven by ideology? You and Krugman really are clueless.
Duh, duh, butthead, er biter, your lack of understanding isn't my problem, it's yours to bear. You haven't read the Constitution, and if you did, you certainly don't get it. I'd rather drink cool-aid than the piss you've been swilling. I suggest you quit drinking piss, it just might help your reasoning, and get you off of the group think treadmill you and Mike are on.
The US is not a European country, and does not have the history of the US to rely on. Why you people keep bringing up the continuously failed states of Europe as if they are the beacons of freedom and liberty is beyond belief! Do you just make up facts as you go along, or are you that intellectually bankrupt you can't put two and two together? Try reading the US Constitution for a change, instead of listening to 'those citizens who come here.' Why do you think they want to come here?!
@bbburton Failed states? France's economy grew this year, so did Germany's. They suffered less deleterious effects of the "Great Recession" than we did.
In fairness, the EU as a whole is experiencing economic growing pains but so did the American territories in during the Articles of Confederation (i.e. Shay's Rebellion).
Overall only the poor and disenfranchised of the world are coming here now, those who have it worse in their native countries. Those who know better go to Europe.
Dear Buh Buh Buh Burt, You again! Spreading the good word I see. You make a lot of the usual claims too. Good for you, sir, good for you... and all that and so forth. Now, can you back any of this crap up for us yet? Or do you need to continue to douche up all non believers?
Peace, Biter.
PS What more double think!?! You don't want gov't telling you what your health care is??? What the fuck? What about insurance companies... their pricing schemes determines this for ya presently?
Duh, duh, asshole, er biter, here you come oozing the superiority and wisdom of an idiot savant. Your problem, not mine, is that you think stealing is okay, so long as it's the gov that is doing the stealing for you. You can't make the simple distinction between individual contracts and gov mandates. Explaining anything to you is impossible, because you've decided gov has all the answers to any problem you have. Stand up straight, grow a pair, and take responsibility for yourself.
One of the primary functions of the state is to protect itself, thus - in a pre-industrial era - that function was left to the armed forces.
But who is the "state" you may be asking? Well in a monarchy, the state is the monarch. In a dictatorship the state is the dictator. In a Republic, such as ours, the state is The People: Not the president, not the Congress not the Supreme Court. The People.
Read the Constitution. Then maybe you'll get some perspective on what a republic means. You mouth the words, but it's obvious you don't understand anything about what it means to be a citizen as opposed to a subject.
There is no logically functional difference between maintaining the armed forces for the protection of "The People" since - after all their well-being is important to the function of the state which they represent - and Healthcare, which also serves as a way to protect and maintain their well-being.
It's not about logic. Read the Constitution. Apparently you failed to comprehend the limitations placed on gov, and now want to use 'logic' instead to broaden national defense to include health care. You may enjoy having your head firmly skewered up your ass, but for the rest of us who have read and understand the Constitution, burying our heads up our ass just isn't an option. We prefer the freedom and liberty that individual personal responsibility allows us to maintain. Logic; you're an idiot
Dear Buh Buh Burton, Ah Burt, glad to see you can still keep it classy. You know, if you like to be spanked you can go to a BDSM club instead. Anyway, her goes: When can government take my property and give it to another? Well if you refer to taxes, I don't mind if the gov't taxes me and then uses the money for infrastructure, special science programs, and defence. I'd prefer a system that doesn't require taxation but I can tolerate the system we have at present. Let's hear your view.
Er, classless asshole, you've been commenting on my objection to health care run by gov, now you seem to want to add in infrastructure, special science programs, and defense (try using your spell checker) and you'd prefer a system that doesn't require taxation and can tolerate the system we have. How noble of you. Now try reading the Constitution. You'll find all the taxation power necessary for those things gov is obliged to do, and health care isn't there. You really are a waste of time.
Buh Buh Burt, You asked me what my thoughts were, I answered, then you insult and piss and shit all over me. Why would I read YOUR constitution? Healthcare IS infrastructure, science, and defence! It isn't a fuckin' stretch. If the military keeps folk safe from broke brown folk sitting on oil, then healthcare keeps us from plague. If NASA explores space, health care explores the human body. A healthy nation is a productive nation just like a nation with bridges and roads.
I'll agree that anyone who calls you a neo-con for not liking Paul Jay's reporting is loopy, however there is a difference between not liking Jay's reporting and calling him a propagandist; I think that takes a certain amount of paranoia. Sure those sources don't range from "very conservative" to "ultra-conservative"?
Get it done when it comes to legislation is always bad. Get it done right is the right way. Get it undone is always off the table after after it is done.
I like how uber leftist Paul Jay says this isn't a Democrat / Republican dialogue but has two guests who are arguing for a full blown socialist state of medical care. Lying and shilling comes so easy for these people.
The federal government is needs to be dismantled before it spirals any further into anything but what our constitution designed it to be.
I read a wide range of sources, stop being a lemming that assumes everyone who doesn't immediate agree with the reporting here is a neo-con or a married to any particular news outlet.
He believed that AL Jazeera was a pro-Siddam network. Even after he started to realize that everything about the war he was told were lies and that fox was full of lies. He still believed that Al Jazeera was a propganda network in it's own way. Truth is that Al Jazeera is not propganda. It is real journalism. You libertarians have one eye opened to the truth and one eye closed in lies.
Dear Amarx, Doctors will die out before nurses. Technology is phasing them out as we speak. If you are sufficiently young (and by that I mean you are a baby boomer or younger) you may live to see the end of the age of doctors and expensive health care. One day intelligent computer software and scanning tech will replace your doc. Robotics will replace your surgeon. And for gumballs at a pop healthcare will be done. Thus the need for insurance will fall off. Technology is change.
I sincerely hope you're right for all our sakes! But I suspect that as long as there are people who beleive that peace and prosperity should not be had by all.
Then the technological, 'singularity' you reffer to, may only endup being, 'rich boys toys'.
No not the singularity, that's the point where AI can improve upon itself (at least as I understand it). I am talking about an even closer point in time. When someone builds a narrow AI software app that does exactly what the best doctors/specialists in the world do (only better) and attaches it to the best scaning devices of the day. Doctors will then be researchers only. At the time of the singularity... "meat" doctors will be edged out of the research field.
cont... As for the rich guys only scenario. Maybe. I find it impossible to believe that a small kabal of elites could hold back all technological advancement... I don't doubt that it happens, in small part, but I doubt that they will be able to stop these technologies from become ubiquitous. The financial and business elites of this day are about to go the way of the warrior elites of a thousand years ago. They are becoming obsolete.
@elbowbiter1 The singularity is the effect that such AI would have on human society, manufacturing and finite process.
But the technology you talk about can only exists, when we have true AI, I cannot see a machine being trusted without supervision with operating on someone without us reacing this stage first... once we have a narrow ai app... then we have AI.
But do you really think the elites wouldnt hold back?
Dear Amarx, Yes we are already in the world of narrow AI. Doctors are already supervising their future replacements. Broad AI would indeed be a nice addition to Dr. software apps. It wouldn't be necessary though. The software would ask a series of questions to narrow a diagnoses and tell the scanner to run the labwork to verify.
I think the elites will try to hold back things... but they won't be able to. History has been very clear, technology can not be stopped.
What you call narrow AI, I and others would decribe as automation and process.
So technically we do not have AI, the closest thing we have to the is the learning asimo I think.
Synthetic oil was developed by the Nazis' when the allies block off their supply routes... and golden rice was developed decades ago to stopp the thousands and millions of children that die of malnutrition each day.
Dear Amarx, Yes those are great examples... I like the simple light bulb. Did you know some of the first light bulbs are still lightable to this very day. They made the coil less robust so the fuckers'll burn out sooner and you'll have to buy more. I agree but I am speaking on much broader terms. In general, over time all the ideas in the box get out or reborn some place else.
II had to bite my lip at you're lightbulb argument.
Did you know that most of the lightbulbs produced in the world today are by poor people in developing countries.
Most of which dont have or cannot afford the electic.... or EVEN A PROPER HOUSE to use em... And for all their blood sweat and tears, you would be happy because some of them have a lightbulb... you're a true humanitarian!
No offence, but I think you're living in a pipe dream!
The world you describe ONLY exists inthe west, and for the elites of devloping countries.
Let me remind you that the overwhelming experience of humans on the planet is war, poverty and hunger.
THAT is the world most humans live in today. You talk live people in 3rd world countries are bound to benefit... well are the benefiting from the technology we have today?
So what makes you think the will benefit tomorrow?
I am not sure how to follow your pipe dream argument? Can you re articulate it? What I am understanding is that because folk are less off, my claim is a pipe dream? Is it your position that: cellphones and computers haven't yet reached the third world? That ground is pretty contentious are you sure you wanna stake a claim to it? I base my ideas on Ray Kurzweil... google vid him and you'll follow me better.
And allow me to bring our conersation back on topic, because despite the fact we have seen toys like mobiles and the internet appearing in the 3rd world, they do not come near to us in capacity in terms of economical and social development, not even 20% of what the develop countries have.
So it's not really swimming with mobiles and TVs' in the 3rd world, and you know it!
So going back to the conversation, are we not talking about healthcare?
And I'm sure you're not going to try and convince anyone that most people in developing countries have acess to a high standard of healthcare or medical technologies!
I'll honour you by checking out this Ray Kurzweil... for what it's worth.
Yeah you won't be disappointed. Check him out and drop me a email to tell me what you think. If you are truly interested in this topic I also recommend Andy Kessler's "The end of medicine."
Dear Mike, Pretty sad hey. Even when I agree with him he still comes at me like I just jabbed him in the sack with a fondue fork. The guy is like an enraged, growling, yipping poodle on the laps of the leading fascist thinkers of our day. He's lucky his folks could afford the hair lip operation cuz if they couldn't his name would have been muhmuhmurton. ;)
In the end, the Patients and the Nurses will get screwed. The Docs, Hospitals, Insurance COs, Pharma and all the other Providers will get richer. The Patients will get less care than they do now. The Nurses will work alot harder than they do now to deliver that care. It's screw the people time in America. Uncle Milton Friedman is having his day.
Dear Walk, Though I agree with most of this I am a little confused by the "people need to freely associate... with people of similar mind" then "Stop... homogenization!!!" I think I know what you are getting at. Don't vote for the rigged game the folks in the 'Club' provide for us. It is like choosing to play in a rigged game of dice and then whining every time that you lost money. Voters: Infinitely tricked into supporting what they hate.
for example, people with disabilities, such as mental retardation or other problems, without modern medical assistance would die, because they are less fit than the others, and cannot survive, on their own. I am in no way saying all retarded people should die, absoultely not, im just stating one peice of evidence like you asked. Its Charles Darwins' theory of natural selction, or survival of the fittest.
ruderevival, modern medicine and science is the cause of most modern ailments such as mental retardation; these conditions have nothing to do with "natural" selection.
if you are skeptical then you should probably start by looking at the work of weston A. price and go from there.
There was a time when Corporations had to PROVE that they served the 'Public Interest' before they were granted Corporate status!!
Perhaps its time to re-instate THAT bit of Law so that corporations stop abusing society & start acting in the interests of EVERYONE & not just their major shareholders!
At the bottom of the 'insurance' pile are people who CANT AFFORD insurance in the first place!
Those are the people who NEED a 'safety net' of Gov't funded healthcare!
The obvious benefit to everyone else is that you don't have people with diseases walking around spreading those diseases & secondly a 'public' option (available to EVERYONE regardless of ability to pay) ensures that the 'private sector' (ie big pharma) don't abuse their 'CARE' role in society (like ALL other corporates do)
Such a cute doctor and yet so naive. Dona i so much more realistic about it. It is obvious that Obama has no intention to bring public option... sell out.
Fearmongering? People will die if we dont pass this. Economy will collapse if we dont pass this? Terrorism will escalate if we dont pass the patriot act. We must bailout BM and Chryslter. What did we get? GM salesmen that dont give a rats ass if they sell a car. Bankers that dont give a rats ass if they give you a loan. Government perpetuating endless war. Do we really need nurses who dont give a rats ass if we live or die?
The politicoClowns on the Hill have only a placeboPoisonPill to offer to all Americans irregardless of wealth or status. They are not HumanBeings! They have Medicare for all gov't. workers and the single taxpayer has to pay over $800. a month to get coverage. The InsuranceCannibals are consuming this nation alive. Don't think your immune, sooner or later you'll be in MedicalBankRuptcy due to Politico InAction. They, both parties would rather consume your bank account than solve the problem!
you can see both women seem to be from two different worlds the DR and the RN who do you guys think care more about the patients the ones who see their patients for 5-10 minutes(DR's) thinking longer is a liability or the one who cares for the patients (RN's) after the Drs leave thinking that longer time with their patients is nessesary?
not to say all doctors are the same but they are alliagned themself with big pharma and the insurance companies to get bigger chunks of the pie...
Obama has been very dissapointing so far. A watered down healthcare bill is not going to fix the problem. Those with vested interests have their snouts so firmly wedged in the trough right now and Obama dimply doesn't seem to have will nor strength to stop them gorging upon the American populace. It's a disgrace.
Let anyone who wants or needs Medicare to get in, and then the rest of anyone who does not want this get their own, 45,000 die from no health care, Double or More die From Healthcare,..
..There....Now, for Jobs. and home foreclosures..and helping the people.who are hurting.
You are either on a windup, or you are arguably the stupidest man in the northern hemisphere. I suspect the latter. Keep your selfish, boring views to yourself or else move to Texas. Either way, nobody gives a flying fuck what you think for the simple reason that you don't matter and you won't matter. Ever.
Dear Cretter, You have to click on reply to the top right of my post for it to register and let me know you have said something to me. All in all a fiery and viscous reply! That's the spirit, roast in that anger. First rule of real change is... disgust and ire! D0g and Slicer are right I am being satirical. Yet I don't doubt deep down that the folk at the top of the pyramid have a very similar view. An ageless fear and hatred for those at the bottom of the barrel.
Dear John Q Public, What happened to health care reform? Fuck health care reform! Rich people are trying to make money in this economy! If you are poor and can't get coverage... go fuck yourself. Rich people are human beings. Poor people are shit slaves that deserve to have their children devoured by the rich while they watch. Want health care reform? Reform in a way that benefits the wealthiest 1% and you're on. Until then fuck the poor (and middle class too).
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
It was almost painful to watch Obama trying to act like a president without a teleprompter. Not only was he being hapless, the body language of the people around the table told all. Dr. Cohen, why would an intelligent, educated person such as you behave like such a bimbo. If you want to sell this poisoned-pill to the public you need to wear a lott more make-up, dress in a red latex miniskirt and fishnet stockings whilst tonguing your lips. Then perhaps a stupid person might fall for your shpiel.
FYI you CAN be smart AND shady. at the same time.
......(personally i'm glad that we have a black president. that in itself is a great thing, no matter what shit we go through. that's a huge step forward for this backwards country.even if it turns out he doesn't do anything for the people.)
can i just say? Ms Cohen reeeally shouldn't have straightened her hair so much. it looks so dry...
craffte 2 years ago
And I thought people voted for Obama because he was going to institute Universal Health Care, he certainly made people believe he was going to, what the hell is this.
barriolimbas 2 years ago
He promised to reform Healthcare but was - if memory serves - non committal about Universal Healthcare during his presidential campaign. Two very different things, but understandable why people confused the two.
Considering the massive resistance he's facing from lobbyists and corporate shills in both houses, it's not a surprise he didn't commit.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
crack dens, who is loosing the money here?
Nobody, except the people who fork over 20 percent of their paycheck to colluding corporate interests, insurance companies and hospitals.
Break up the insurance monopolies.
And vote these criminals out of Congress so we can elect some different criminals.
Ciaresayton 2 years ago
Hospitals pay NO taxes. In Cleveland, you have two of the most renowned hospitals, making hundreds of millions through profit and philanothrohy (tax evasion), so none of their profits are available for local schools, free clinics or drug/alcohol treatment. They have helped turn Cleveland into a ghetto town, yet most of their health care facilities reject the poor and uninsured.
Yet the doctors live in Moreland Hills.
Nurses rack 70,000 or more a year.
Drug reps in Saabs like crackheads in
Ciaresayton 2 years ago
i love how all of you say NO SOCIALISM NO SOCIALISM!! GO FOR PRIVATE insurance you guys are fucking morons... your schools are socialism, your roads or socialism, your libraries are socialism, and the list goes on, private insurance yeah totally trust corprates who will probably rip us off... nice job american pigs
Daka12s 2 years ago
These liberals are so weak, real socialists would never accept shit like this.
blackiron60 2 years ago
the Nurses and "activists" need to appeal to the public more and to Democrats behind closed doors a little less, because that's where the power is as far as votes go in Congress. Make them fear for their jobs on the "left".
smg1one 2 years ago
wow the lady on the right is completely clueless.
thequake180 2 years ago
something is fishy about both ladies. Where do they really stand? They seem to be ready to pass anything, no matter how weak to look good. And they defend a lot of the compromise.
Renegen1 2 years ago
@Renegen1 "To look good"? What are you talking about? The one of the left came out clearly in favor of single payer, but stated that in the meantime, she'll take anything that helps mend our broken system, and get more treatment to the people who need it most.
psychoholicmike 2 years ago 2
@elbowbiter1
No I'm sorry, dont get me wrong I dont mean to sound harsh.
But I live in the real world, and the yes, that is about correct, both in the context of you're previous comments, and that of the good of mankind.
Is it fair to say in the future, we wont need doctors as machines will do that for us... oh with the exeption of ...80 - 90% of the worlds population... can you really say that will be for the good of mandkind?
Of course not...
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx, No worries bro, I don't mind stiff competition about an idea. I still don't follow. Let me use the first computer as an example. Turing thought that his invention would one day change the world. Your great Grandfather stated, 'This computer costs a million dollars, only the richest one percent will be able to afford them.' Now the third world has cheap computer technology many times greater than Turings first machine. This too will be true of AI doctor Apps.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
Thats a sick thought to me, especially within the context of our argument...
Like saying, we dont have to help the millions starving and suffering now, as by the time they die of, the next generation will have slightly better facilities.
Can you not see this from the humans point of view, there are people in the world that need help now, in the US for health reform, as much as any poor person in this world!
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx, Heh, sorry bro... I wasn't really arguing against your point of view. Just pointing out that one day the dipshits getting in the way of healthcare will be phased completely out of our society. That's all I was saying. I agree with your ideas about helping folk right now. It would be nice... but if we can't help those alive today... we will be able to help their children (that isn't ideal I know... but it is better than being kicked in the ass with a cold boot.)
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
Hey dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good argument, although I do come at this from another angle from you.
And I have to say I dont know if it's as simple as to just say one day... as that day has been long in comming.
And what I fear.. Is the enevitable fact, that what is good in this world, would be usurped by the principalities to which we reffer to, I'll give you an example.
Andy Kessler, is he the same as the Kessler of the Germania Lodge in Louisiana?
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
For if he is the same, then he has fundraisers from the very same forces we talk about...
And that is the point im making!
Amarx00 2 years ago
Finish watching Kurzweils Vids... I am certain that we'll be on the same page... I really wasn't aware of the disagreement though.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
Yea I've just been watching some of his vids and related materials, I have heard about this and do have a genuine interest.
Anyway, sorry again for being so argumentative.
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
I kind of understand you're feling on the state of the world. As I can only beleive that you like I was, and many others.
Are ignorant to the imbalances and injustice, we not only find in the 3rd world.
But the rest of it, in all countries, you will find this in the hearts of men, to make others suffer.
The ignorance I reffer to is the fact that 80% of this worlds wealth is controlled by 20% of its' people... and that figure is the same for all countries...
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
It's horrific when you realise that there is enough money generated by this world each year, that could end world poverty TWICE! (Bob Geldof... not that I like him, but just where it's from)
But is this not wrong?
Amarx00 2 years ago
Whoa, nice, very nice piece of interview. 5/5
sinekonata 2 years ago
With HCR it's Paul Krugman vs David Brooks.
Krugman, of the Pulitizer Prize & Brooks formerly
of the Weekly Standard. The Govn't is the only one who can compete with Insurance Companies who have been preparing for 8 yrs. under Cheney who spent all the money he could with 3 wars & a near depression to "drown the beast" knowing that HCR was coming. We NOW cannot afford to do it & cannot afford not to. Insurance PR says no. I have insurance.
I SIDE AGAINST THEM, period, end of story.
danger0usknowledge 2 years ago
@Amarx
Evolution is harsh, the harsher it is the better the result.
Anyways...Medicaid...etc is part of evolution, meaning it might lead to bigger problem...which is perfect
DaHebrewHammer 2 years ago
@DaHebrewHammer
Remember you said that, when you or one of you're loved one falls ill.
In you're world they would not stand a chance... thank god we dont all live in you're world!
Amarx00 2 years ago
Oh well, if I have a say I will sterilize 99% of humans...emotional misfits!
Its evolution not a hugfest!
DaHebrewHammer 2 years ago
@DaHebrewHammer
I see you're world would be a lonely one!
I pray that because of attitudes like yours that my or your children or grand children wont end up in some kind of internment camp.
But as long as there are people like you in the world, there still is a chance.
No DaHebrewHammer... It is not that you are perfect and the world imperfect, but I put it that as long as there are people like you.
Who cannot see as far as the greater good for all!
Then you, and people like...
Amarx00 2 years ago
@DaHebrewHammer
...and people like you, are a cancer on our species!
Amarx00 2 years ago
I am not sure it seems you are the irrational aggressive person here, I prefer a wolrd with less people like you...Thanks
DaHebrewHammer 2 years ago
So when we're all forced into buying insurance from the private for-profit industry, will they still deny the amount of claims they do (most b/c of 'too much paperwork') now? How much more is our government, both republican and democrat, going to keep showing its fascism? when a government favors corporations over people that is fascism. sorry folks, but we really weren't ever a democracy, and we sure aren't now. that's been a 'necessary illusion' to 'manufacture consent' of the many.
Pomeray8 2 years ago
This health insurance reform, or whatever it's getting called these days is not a bi-partisan issue. Look at how many of these people have taken money from the for-profit health industry. Grassley, Baucus, Obama, Clinton, McCain, etc...And they've all taken a ton in campaign contributions. Obama, newly into office, met in private with officials from the industry numerous times. Why is single-payer not being discussed? Why not any options for the people?
Pomeray8 2 years ago
There is no room for gov in health care. Health care is a private matter best handled by individuals. Gov only drives up the cost of health care, and does not increase the quality. I don't want anyone telling me what my health care should be.
bbburton 2 years ago
@bbburton Your claim is not supported by the facts & history, thus making it more akin to religion - based on faith - than on actual empirical evidence.
European countries like France, Germany and Denmark have full coverage for their citizens that surpasses that of many Americans. Those citizens who come here are appalled by the state of our healthcare.
And just looking at how rates have increased over the years while quality has gone down seems to suggest that markets are not doing their job.
mikepalomino 2 years ago 2
Yeah Mike, I have talked to buh buh buh Burton about his ideas many a time... He just gets to the point of inane douchery and is completely unable to articulate his ideas. He is a koolaid drinking troll. He believes what he believes, and doesn't require a reason to believe what he believes. The guy is absolutely cr... *ahem* mentally ill.
I think he thinks that he might get recognized for his proselytizing here on youtube and someone will make him rich, but i dunno?
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1 I just don't get it, they say that hell is the impossibility of reason, and insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result - which seems to define perfectly this entire "government can't do anything right" Right-wing mantra.
They keep repeating it, but if it's so successful why is no one else emulating it? It just doesn't make any sense.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Dear Mike, Heh ;) I hear ya brother. Don't worry you've already provoked the wrath of the great triple 'b' urton. He'll set you straight by calling you a fuckin' moron and typing at you like you're a fiver year old. He say things like, "socialist medicine doesn't work because socialism is only best when businesses provide the socialism." To which you'll scratch your head and say ain't that doublethink? Then he'll tell you how dumb you are. You are in for a treat my friend.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
Duh, duh, asshole, er biter. You've taken up the mantle of being so intellectually superior, you're tripping all over yourself. The fact is, you're incapable of explaining why I, or anyone, should be responsible for your health care. So, biter, tell me how it's okay for the government to take property from someone and give it to another, when anyone who did so would be called a criminal and punished? You have a singular position - I can't steal, but the gov can do it for me, and it's okay.
bbburton 2 years ago
How stupid can you get?! The purchasing value of the dollar has gone down for the last 95 years, yet you don't see it. You think spending will get you out of debt?! And if the gov only spends more, we'll all be wealthy?! You're not living in the dark ages, you just have your head so far up your ass, you think it's perfectly normal to smell shit wherever you go, and are perplexed when others disagree with you. Education is a wonderful thing, you should try it sometime.
bbburton 2 years ago
@bbburton Purchasing power is a relative thing. Purchasing power compared to whom? Great Britain? France? Zimbabwe? Not to mention the natural inflation in the economy would have seen the devaluation of the dollar regardless.
I never said that "spending will get you out of debt" but government intervention can reap a savings by forcing insurers to compete.
These are not my estimates but those of economists and experts. Why don't you read up more on it instead of sticking your head in the sand?
mikepalomino 2 years ago
You really are a pathetic moron. The purchasing power of dollar in 1913 compared to it's current value has declined drastically. In comparison, today's dollar is worth about $.4 in purchasing power in relation to the purchasing power of the dollar in 1913. Inflation is the result of pumping too many dollars into circulation. Your understanding of economics is pathetic. And forcing insurance companies to do anything except preventing fraud is ludicrous. Competition only happens in a free market.
bbburton 2 years ago
Your views are so entrenched in dogma & ignorance that it's not worth debating you. But I will point out that your understanding of economics is grossly distorted to suit your ideology.
Even the most efficient economy would still have inflation, it is not solely the "result of pumping too many dollars into circulation."
Inflation is inevitable.
In fact, inflation is preferable over deflation. So the dollar would have lost value over time regardless.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Whoa long debate. I don't know what view you perceive inflation to be inevitable. But saying even the most effective economy would have inflation is certainly false. If we used oil as money we would actually start to have deflation as reserves got lower.
And the old argument for giving raises instead of cuts to legitimize inflation is horrid. Money is intrinsically used as a measurement. To subvert with inflation makes future planning and thus the future dubious. Not to mention theft.
sirellyn 2 years ago
I am not going to claim to be an economist. I have an understanding of economics.
The way I understand it, some inflation is inevitable even if you don't pump more money into an economy. No economy is 100 percent efficient. The most you can do is to stave off excess inflation by adjusting things like interest rates.
If you're versed in economics & I'm wrong, please correct me, provided you give the citations to reputable sources (e.g. Peter Schiff is not a credible economist IMO.)
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Ok basics. "Money" is a commodity that becomes accepted because people can trade it to someone else for something else they actually value. If money cannot be printed it must be procured. Any factor that causes the amount of money to become more rare for individuals causes deflation. (its not hard at all)
Fed doesn't technically control interest rates, it only controls the amount of money they print. By printing lots of money, they send interest rates low. So inflation = low interest
sirellyn 2 years ago
Nothing you say contradicts anything I said. Yes money is a commodity that can be traded.
"Any factor that causes the amount of money to become more rare for individuals causes deflation"
And by the same token, any factor that causes the amount of money to become less rare causes inflation: such as printing money, low interests rates or just an excess of capital.
Gold once became devalued from hyperinflation in the 17th century when Spain was hauling tons of it from the Americas.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
You were saying that some inflation is inevitable. Thats only true if you can create money with the stroke of a pen or press of a key. If you can do this it's not truly money is simply a currency.
I disagree on the matter that inflation is inevitable. I also argue that inflation is preferable over deflation. In slight quantity (1-2% a year), deflation is preferable as it encourages savings and thus capital.
The best way is to treat money as a unit of measure, thus commodities.
sirellyn 2 years ago
No offense, but I think the ideology behind your economics is showing.
Milton Friedman posited that all inflation is related to monetary policy. My economist of choice Paul Krugman rejects that notion
Krugman also warned against deflation. The problem is (I'm quoting loosely here) is that deflation leads to decreased wages. Thus in a deflationary economy your wages would decrease but debts, like your mortgage stay the same.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
I strive to avoid ad hominem. Thus I don't consider any source 100% right or 100% wrong. (Including myself) So I'll talk about the topic on the basis of the topic.
Your argument favors debt. Debt is only good as a cautious investment in a business, outside of this it's either waste or mal investment at best.
With deflation people would try to get rid of debt (which is good). Mortgages would come down as a glut of home with no one buying for force prices to lower. Capital would increase.
sirellyn 2 years ago
I understand what you're saying about deflation. I suppose it could be done in the wake of a major financial collapse where we could start from scratch. Trying to switch gears right now into deflation would - in my estimation - destroy the economy.
Again I reference Paul Krugman's deflation paradox. Paying off debt and saving money are inherently good, but when everyone does it, it kills the economy.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
It doesn't kill the economy. Even with everyone seeking thrift people have to buy fundamentals. (Food,shelter,electricity etc) Additionally I cannot find a single civilization example where even the poorest do not "splurge" for entertainment. We aren't robots.
Lots of business based soley on excess would fail or restructure. But this is how better business evolves, and a strong base is built. It doesn't take long either. A year likely, two at the very worst.
sirellyn 2 years ago
"It doesn't kill the economy. Even with everyone seeking thrift people have to buy fundamentals."
An economy is more than just fundamentals. If you want to see 30-40 percent unemployment, by all means, let's do it.
Again I refer you to the deflation paradox and the decade-long economic slump in Japan. See: Krugman.
Methinks you're a little too cavalier re: the impact that this would have. This is where your ideology is showing as you support deflation based more on faith than actual evidence.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Also, what do you think a "destroyed economy" looks like? It doesn't look like Gaza or any warzone. It doesn't even look like Detroit. It looks like everything does now except there isn't really anything new for a year or two. Think of a farm town that seems 5 years behind the city.
If you sustain a depression, then yes bad things can happen. People get frustrated and tensions can flare, resources get lower and bad decisions can lead to civil action and even war.
sirellyn 2 years ago
And while deflation can encourage savings (no argument there) it leads to an economic paradox that depresses the economy.
Do a search on Krugman + deflation paradox and you'll find links to his articles in the New York Times.
If I recall, he cites an economic downturn in Japan that was caused by deflation.
Economics as a whole is a rather wonkish social science, but hey it's not called the Dismal Science for nothing. :)
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Anyone who subscribes to the Krugman theory of economics is as big and idiot as he is. Inflation may occur as a result of supply/demand dynamics, but if you don't believe that the inflation we are experiencing today isn't caused by the influx of dollars into the marketplace, your a bigger fool than you sound.
bbburton 2 years ago
@bbburton Four words: Nobel Prize in Economics. How many do you have? Zero. Guess whose opinion / knowledge I trust more: That's right. [Hint: it's not you.]
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Spoken like a true moron; and what contribution did he make in economics that he was recognized for? Explaining patterns of international trade and the geographic concentration of wealth by examining the impact of economies of scale and of consumer preferences for diverse goods and services. Hope you like having your head up the ass of Krugman.
bbburton 2 years ago
Say what you will, Krugman knows the inside baseball of economics.
He's been right about many things before & since the economic crisis. He was right about the benefits of the stimulus package - something you doomsayers said would never work (and yet take credit for it).
He is not intimidated by your ideologically driven economics.
Economics driven by the likes of Peter Schiff and Glenn Beck, parasites feeding off peoples' fears (which he helps promote) in order to profit off them.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
If Krugman was prescient, why did he fail to even recognize the meltdown that was coming? When people like Schiff, Paul, and other Austrian economists warned everyone, where was Krugman? You claim the stimulus package was a great success, yet why is unemployment still hovering at 10%? The deficit has ballooned, the EU is crumbling, consumer prices continue to skyrocket, and yet you support Krugman. A sound currency driven by ideology? You and Krugman really are clueless.
bbburton 2 years ago
Duh, duh, butthead, er biter, your lack of understanding isn't my problem, it's yours to bear. You haven't read the Constitution, and if you did, you certainly don't get it. I'd rather drink cool-aid than the piss you've been swilling. I suggest you quit drinking piss, it just might help your reasoning, and get you off of the group think treadmill you and Mike are on.
bbburton 2 years ago
The US is not a European country, and does not have the history of the US to rely on. Why you people keep bringing up the continuously failed states of Europe as if they are the beacons of freedom and liberty is beyond belief! Do you just make up facts as you go along, or are you that intellectually bankrupt you can't put two and two together? Try reading the US Constitution for a change, instead of listening to 'those citizens who come here.' Why do you think they want to come here?!
bbburton 2 years ago
@bbburton Failed states? France's economy grew this year, so did Germany's. They suffered less deleterious effects of the "Great Recession" than we did.
In fairness, the EU as a whole is experiencing economic growing pains but so did the American territories in during the Articles of Confederation (i.e. Shay's Rebellion).
Overall only the poor and disenfranchised of the world are coming here now, those who have it worse in their native countries. Those who know better go to Europe.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Dear Buh Buh Buh Burt, You again! Spreading the good word I see. You make a lot of the usual claims too. Good for you, sir, good for you... and all that and so forth. Now, can you back any of this crap up for us yet? Or do you need to continue to douche up all non believers?
Peace, Biter.
PS What more double think!?! You don't want gov't telling you what your health care is??? What the fuck? What about insurance companies... their pricing schemes determines this for ya presently?
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
Duh, duh, asshole, er biter, here you come oozing the superiority and wisdom of an idiot savant. Your problem, not mine, is that you think stealing is okay, so long as it's the gov that is doing the stealing for you. You can't make the simple distinction between individual contracts and gov mandates. Explaining anything to you is impossible, because you've decided gov has all the answers to any problem you have. Stand up straight, grow a pair, and take responsibility for yourself.
bbburton 2 years ago
@bbburton Oh Billy Bob, you're such a kidder.
Here, let me explain it for you:
One of the primary functions of the state is to protect itself, thus - in a pre-industrial era - that function was left to the armed forces.
But who is the "state" you may be asking? Well in a monarchy, the state is the monarch. In a dictatorship the state is the dictator. In a Republic, such as ours, the state is The People: Not the president, not the Congress not the Supreme Court. The People.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Read the Constitution. Then maybe you'll get some perspective on what a republic means. You mouth the words, but it's obvious you don't understand anything about what it means to be a citizen as opposed to a subject.
bbburton 2 years ago
There is no logically functional difference between maintaining the armed forces for the protection of "The People" since - after all their well-being is important to the function of the state which they represent - and Healthcare, which also serves as a way to protect and maintain their well-being.
mikepalomino 2 years ago
It's not about logic. Read the Constitution. Apparently you failed to comprehend the limitations placed on gov, and now want to use 'logic' instead to broaden national defense to include health care. You may enjoy having your head firmly skewered up your ass, but for the rest of us who have read and understand the Constitution, burying our heads up our ass just isn't an option. We prefer the freedom and liberty that individual personal responsibility allows us to maintain. Logic; you're an idiot
bbburton 2 years ago
Dear Buh Buh Burton, Ah Burt, glad to see you can still keep it classy. You know, if you like to be spanked you can go to a BDSM club instead. Anyway, her goes: When can government take my property and give it to another? Well if you refer to taxes, I don't mind if the gov't taxes me and then uses the money for infrastructure, special science programs, and defence. I'd prefer a system that doesn't require taxation but I can tolerate the system we have at present. Let's hear your view.
EB
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
Er, classless asshole, you've been commenting on my objection to health care run by gov, now you seem to want to add in infrastructure, special science programs, and defense (try using your spell checker) and you'd prefer a system that doesn't require taxation and can tolerate the system we have. How noble of you. Now try reading the Constitution. You'll find all the taxation power necessary for those things gov is obliged to do, and health care isn't there. You really are a waste of time.
bbburton 2 years ago
Buh Buh Burt, You asked me what my thoughts were, I answered, then you insult and piss and shit all over me. Why would I read YOUR constitution? Healthcare IS infrastructure, science, and defence! It isn't a fuckin' stretch. If the military keeps folk safe from broke brown folk sitting on oil, then healthcare keeps us from plague. If NASA explores space, health care explores the human body. A healthy nation is a productive nation just like a nation with bridges and roads.
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@kmg501
I'll agree that anyone who calls you a neo-con for not liking Paul Jay's reporting is loopy, however there is a difference between not liking Jay's reporting and calling him a propagandist; I think that takes a certain amount of paranoia. Sure those sources don't range from "very conservative" to "ultra-conservative"?
foahchon 2 years ago
People Before Profits.
longlivetheloud2 2 years ago 3
Get it done when it comes to legislation is always bad. Get it done right is the right way. Get it undone is always off the table after after it is done.
Hierophant2 2 years ago
And 15:00 there is the old Appeal to Emotion rational that these shills for communism always use.
.
kmg501 2 years ago
At least they admit that they are the cancer that is pushing "incrementalism".
.
kmg501 2 years ago
I like how uber leftist Paul Jay says this isn't a Democrat / Republican dialogue but has two guests who are arguing for a full blown socialist state of medical care. Lying and shilling comes so easy for these people.
The federal government is needs to be dismantled before it spirals any further into anything but what our constitution designed it to be.
.
kmg501 2 years ago
@kmg501
Paul Jay isn't perfect but I say he is much better than ABC NBC and Fox News combined. :)
Hierophant2 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Paul Jay is no journalist. Him and his organization are propagandists.
.
kmg501 2 years ago
@kmg501
go watch fox news then
captcrais101 2 years ago
@captcrais101
I read a wide range of sources, stop being a lemming that assumes everyone who doesn't immediate agree with the reporting here is a neo-con or a married to any particular news outlet.
.
kmg501 2 years ago
He believed that AL Jazeera was a pro-Siddam network. Even after he started to realize that everything about the war he was told were lies and that fox was full of lies. He still believed that Al Jazeera was a propganda network in it's own way. Truth is that Al Jazeera is not propganda. It is real journalism. You libertarians have one eye opened to the truth and one eye closed in lies.
captcrais101 2 years ago 3
...And Kmg501 is no measuring stick for what is or is not journalism or propaganda.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
wow which sounds like she knows what shes talking about and makes more sense, the nurse or the doctor?
I go for the nurse!
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx, Doctors will die out before nurses. Technology is phasing them out as we speak. If you are sufficiently young (and by that I mean you are a baby boomer or younger) you may live to see the end of the age of doctors and expensive health care. One day intelligent computer software and scanning tech will replace your doc. Robotics will replace your surgeon. And for gumballs at a pop healthcare will be done. Thus the need for insurance will fall off. Technology is change.
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
I sincerely hope you're right for all our sakes! But I suspect that as long as there are people who beleive that peace and prosperity should not be had by all.
Then the technological, 'singularity' you reffer to, may only endup being, 'rich boys toys'.
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx,
No not the singularity, that's the point where AI can improve upon itself (at least as I understand it). I am talking about an even closer point in time. When someone builds a narrow AI software app that does exactly what the best doctors/specialists in the world do (only better) and attaches it to the best scaning devices of the day. Doctors will then be researchers only. At the time of the singularity... "meat" doctors will be edged out of the research field.
cont...
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
cont... As for the rich guys only scenario. Maybe. I find it impossible to believe that a small kabal of elites could hold back all technological advancement... I don't doubt that it happens, in small part, but I doubt that they will be able to stop these technologies from become ubiquitous. The financial and business elites of this day are about to go the way of the warrior elites of a thousand years ago. They are becoming obsolete.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
Look at synthetic oil, look at golden rice!
And by the way, the elites of old, are the same today. They just passed down their traditions to the next generation.
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1 The singularity is the effect that such AI would have on human society, manufacturing and finite process.
But the technology you talk about can only exists, when we have true AI, I cannot see a machine being trusted without supervision with operating on someone without us reacing this stage first... once we have a narrow ai app... then we have AI.
But do you really think the elites wouldnt hold back?
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx, Yes we are already in the world of narrow AI. Doctors are already supervising their future replacements. Broad AI would indeed be a nice addition to Dr. software apps. It wouldn't be necessary though. The software would ask a series of questions to narrow a diagnoses and tell the scanner to run the labwork to verify.
I think the elites will try to hold back things... but they won't be able to. History has been very clear, technology can not be stopped.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
Oh and before I forget... please enlighten me about synthetic oil and golden rice... I missed your meaning on that one.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
What you call narrow AI, I and others would decribe as automation and process.
So technically we do not have AI, the closest thing we have to the is the learning asimo I think.
Synthetic oil was developed by the Nazis' when the allies block off their supply routes... and golden rice was developed decades ago to stopp the thousands and millions of children that die of malnutrition each day.
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx, Yes those are great examples... I like the simple light bulb. Did you know some of the first light bulbs are still lightable to this very day. They made the coil less robust so the fuckers'll burn out sooner and you'll have to buy more. I agree but I am speaking on much broader terms. In general, over time all the ideas in the box get out or reborn some place else.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
II had to bite my lip at you're lightbulb argument.
Did you know that most of the lightbulbs produced in the world today are by poor people in developing countries.
Most of which dont have or cannot afford the electic.... or EVEN A PROPER HOUSE to use em... And for all their blood sweat and tears, you would be happy because some of them have a lightbulb... you're a true humanitarian!
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
No offence, but I think you're living in a pipe dream!
The world you describe ONLY exists inthe west, and for the elites of devloping countries.
Let me remind you that the overwhelming experience of humans on the planet is war, poverty and hunger.
THAT is the world most humans live in today. You talk live people in 3rd world countries are bound to benefit... well are the benefiting from the technology we have today?
So what makes you think the will benefit tomorrow?
Amarx00 2 years ago
Dear Amarx,
I am not sure how to follow your pipe dream argument? Can you re articulate it? What I am understanding is that because folk are less off, my claim is a pipe dream? Is it your position that: cellphones and computers haven't yet reached the third world? That ground is pretty contentious are you sure you wanna stake a claim to it? I base my ideas on Ray Kurzweil... google vid him and you'll follow me better.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
And allow me to bring our conersation back on topic, because despite the fact we have seen toys like mobiles and the internet appearing in the 3rd world, they do not come near to us in capacity in terms of economical and social development, not even 20% of what the develop countries have.
So it's not really swimming with mobiles and TVs' in the 3rd world, and you know it!
So going back to the conversation, are we not talking about healthcare?
Amarx00 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
And I'm sure you're not going to try and convince anyone that most people in developing countries have acess to a high standard of healthcare or medical technologies!
I'll honour you by checking out this Ray Kurzweil... for what it's worth.
Amarx00 2 years ago
It's worth it.
Otlidas 2 years ago
Yeah you won't be disappointed. Check him out and drop me a email to tell me what you think. If you are truly interested in this topic I also recommend Andy Kessler's "The end of medicine."
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1 Heh, you are correct. @bbburton is quite the charmer! Good thing you warned me or I might have actually taken him seriously! lol
I wonder if the "bb" in bbburton stands for "Billy Bob" - what do you think?
mikepalomino 2 years ago
Dear Mike, Pretty sad hey. Even when I agree with him he still comes at me like I just jabbed him in the sack with a fondue fork. The guy is like an enraged, growling, yipping poodle on the laps of the leading fascist thinkers of our day. He's lucky his folks could afford the hair lip operation cuz if they couldn't his name would have been muhmuhmurton. ;)
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
@elbowbiter1
I am sick and tired of this!
Can you tell me where my comments about doctor nurse who sounds smarter went? I cant find them anywhere?!
Is the RealNews Censoring comments?... I doubt it, but where have my comments gone!!!
This is happening more and more on the internet... It's called incrementalism!
Amarx00 2 years ago
Someone might have marked them as spam.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
In the end, the Patients and the Nurses will get screwed. The Docs, Hospitals, Insurance COs, Pharma and all the other Providers will get richer. The Patients will get less care than they do now. The Nurses will work alot harder than they do now to deliver that care. It's screw the people time in America. Uncle Milton Friedman is having his day.
rickbar123 2 years ago 3
The fact is that Government is a COUNTRY CLUB. Boycott it and shut it down.
People need to freely associate and exist with people of similar mind.
Stop globalization and homogenization!!! It's what's killing us, and enriching the political class!! STOP THEM & LIVE FREE!
walkwalkslow 2 years ago 2
Dear Walk, Though I agree with most of this I am a little confused by the "people need to freely associate... with people of similar mind" then "Stop... homogenization!!!" I think I know what you are getting at. Don't vote for the rigged game the folks in the 'Club' provide for us. It is like choosing to play in a rigged game of dice and then whining every time that you lost money. Voters: Infinitely tricked into supporting what they hate.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
But weaker humans are supposed to die...its natures way of cleaning out the unwanted strains
DaHebrewHammer 2 years ago
dahebrewhammer, show me one piece of evidence that nature "cleans out unwanted strains" by making the "weaker humans...die."
Diatonic135 2 years ago
for example, people with disabilities, such as mental retardation or other problems, without modern medical assistance would die, because they are less fit than the others, and cannot survive, on their own. I am in no way saying all retarded people should die, absoultely not, im just stating one peice of evidence like you asked. Its Charles Darwins' theory of natural selction, or survival of the fittest.
ruderevival 2 years ago
ruderevival, modern medicine and science is the cause of most modern ailments such as mental retardation; these conditions have nothing to do with "natural" selection.
if you are skeptical then you should probably start by looking at the work of weston A. price and go from there.
Diatonic135 2 years ago
hmm... alright sounds interesting ill give it a look
ruderevival 2 years ago
@DaHebrewHammer
Amd is that what you would say of yourself or loved ones?
Amarx00 2 years ago
There was a time when Corporations had to PROVE that they served the 'Public Interest' before they were granted Corporate status!!
Perhaps its time to re-instate THAT bit of Law so that corporations stop abusing society & start acting in the interests of EVERYONE & not just their major shareholders!
ejbh3160 2 years ago 4
At the bottom of the 'insurance' pile are people who CANT AFFORD insurance in the first place!
Those are the people who NEED a 'safety net' of Gov't funded healthcare!
The obvious benefit to everyone else is that you don't have people with diseases walking around spreading those diseases & secondly a 'public' option (available to EVERYONE regardless of ability to pay) ensures that the 'private sector' (ie big pharma) don't abuse their 'CARE' role in society (like ALL other corporates do)
ejbh3160 2 years ago 2
Such a cute doctor and yet so naive. Dona i so much more realistic about it. It is obvious that Obama has no intention to bring public option... sell out.
crnogoracz 2 years ago
Fearmongering? People will die if we dont pass this. Economy will collapse if we dont pass this? Terrorism will escalate if we dont pass the patriot act. We must bailout BM and Chryslter. What did we get? GM salesmen that dont give a rats ass if they sell a car. Bankers that dont give a rats ass if they give you a loan. Government perpetuating endless war. Do we really need nurses who dont give a rats ass if we live or die?
EMPIRE0FLIES 2 years ago
The politicoClowns on the Hill have only a placeboPoisonPill to offer to all Americans irregardless of wealth or status. They are not HumanBeings! They have Medicare for all gov't. workers and the single taxpayer has to pay over $800. a month to get coverage. The InsuranceCannibals are consuming this nation alive. Don't think your immune, sooner or later you'll be in MedicalBankRuptcy due to Politico InAction. They, both parties would rather consume your bank account than solve the problem!
rwcbanzai 2 years ago 2
you can see both women seem to be from two different worlds the DR and the RN who do you guys think care more about the patients the ones who see their patients for 5-10 minutes(DR's) thinking longer is a liability or the one who cares for the patients (RN's) after the Drs leave thinking that longer time with their patients is nessesary?
not to say all doctors are the same but they are alliagned themself with big pharma and the insurance companies to get bigger chunks of the pie...
sircesare 2 years ago 3
Obama has been very dissapointing so far. A watered down healthcare bill is not going to fix the problem. Those with vested interests have their snouts so firmly wedged in the trough right now and Obama dimply doesn't seem to have will nor strength to stop them gorging upon the American populace. It's a disgrace.
MABMAB27 2 years ago 12
Let anyone who wants or needs Medicare to get in, and then the rest of anyone who does not want this get their own, 45,000 die from no health care, Double or More die From Healthcare,..
..There....Now, for Jobs. and home foreclosures..and helping the people.who are hurting.
winbri5 2 years ago
Cock Biter-
You are either on a windup, or you are arguably the stupidest man in the northern hemisphere. I suspect the latter. Keep your selfish, boring views to yourself or else move to Texas. Either way, nobody gives a flying fuck what you think for the simple reason that you don't matter and you won't matter. Ever.
Now go and suck off a Russian Oligarch.
cretter 2 years ago
His remarks were tongue-in-cheek, what are yours?
D0g63rt 2 years ago
He is obviously being sarcastic.
ArcticSlicer 2 years ago
Dear Cretter, You have to click on reply to the top right of my post for it to register and let me know you have said something to me. All in all a fiery and viscous reply! That's the spirit, roast in that anger. First rule of real change is... disgust and ire! D0g and Slicer are right I am being satirical. Yet I don't doubt deep down that the folk at the top of the pyramid have a very similar view. An ageless fear and hatred for those at the bottom of the barrel.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
It's time to start from scratch. Single payer health care now, everyone in and no one left out.
Aiden057 2 years ago 5
Dear John Q Public, What happened to health care reform? Fuck health care reform! Rich people are trying to make money in this economy! If you are poor and can't get coverage... go fuck yourself. Rich people are human beings. Poor people are shit slaves that deserve to have their children devoured by the rich while they watch. Want health care reform? Reform in a way that benefits the wealthiest 1% and you're on. Until then fuck the poor (and middle class too).
Love,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago 4
@elbowbiter1 -- exactly. like good ole neitze said, there are no truths...just positions.
judutchinski 2 years ago
Dear Judu,
Amen! An enlightened gent! thanks for the comment.
Peace,
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
Cold but true
rickbar123 2 years ago
Dear Rickbar, I tip my hat to you sir. May the jackboots of your oppressors never find your nuttz.
Biter.
elbowbiter1 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
It was almost painful to watch Obama trying to act like a president without a teleprompter. Not only was he being hapless, the body language of the people around the table told all. Dr. Cohen, why would an intelligent, educated person such as you behave like such a bimbo. If you want to sell this poisoned-pill to the public you need to wear a lott more make-up, dress in a red latex miniskirt and fishnet stockings whilst tonguing your lips. Then perhaps a stupid person might fall for your shpiel.
flyhead2 2 years ago