Anarchism in America Documentary (Part 3 of 8)

[cosmicforums]

That guy at the end is good

[BeGrunge]

the comparison between a goddess like Goldman and a bitter old hag like Rand almost made me vomit till he admitted rand was insane.

[doorsovperception]

45000jas expressed what I was trying to say as succinctly as possible. I'm sorry if there was any mixup.

[ResistTyranny101]

5:35 Bookchin disillusioned w/Marxism: "The workers' movement never really had a revolutionary potential...the factory, which is supposed to organize the workers...served to regiment the worker...to assimilate the worker to the work ethic, to the industrial routine, to hierarchical forms of organization, and that no matter how compellingly Marx had argued that such a movement could have revolutionary consequences, in fact, such a movement could have nothing but a purely adaptive function."

[4500jas]

Also I hope everyone can see that Bookchin is a social anarchist and Hess is an anarcho-capitalist

[agapeiron]

@4500jas It makes you wonder about the documentary makers. If we can include capitalists in a documentary on American anarchism we might as well embrace decrepit neo-fascists just because they call themselves anarchists (and they're out there).

This inclusion would have disgusted American anarchists like Spies, Goldman or Albert Parsons.

It's high time to smash all the middle-class posturing and radical chic. If you're a capitalist, you're not a fucking anarchist!

[4500jas]

Let's be clear that anarcho-capitalists are the libertarian movement. The libertarians are right wing anarchists. Which is oxymoronic, like fascist liberal. Ayn Rand is not a political philosophy. Capitalism is economic exploitation. Anarchism cannot exist in a purely individualistic way. It can really only work through the way Kropotkin and Bakunin envisioned anarchism. This will ensure the liberation of Humanity, not just the individual, politically, socially, and economically.

[4500jas]

Bookchin is right. Anarchism liberates humanity politically, socially, and economically. Anarcho-capitalists are the anti-anarchists. Only anarcho-communism or maybe in someplaces mutualism mat work. Individualist anarchism cannot possibly work because it would be Everyman for himself, therefore individualist anarchism is selfish anarchism or personal anarchism. Only social anarchism can work.

[bapyou]

Bookchin's analysis of why the strong worker's actions and the movement of the 1930s didn't translate into revolution ignores the massive state repression of these movements, especially after WW2. For instance, 1947's Taft-Hartley Act required union members to sign an oath stating that they are not a member of any communist or socialist party. This was the beginning of the right-wing working class, who were the target of massive, well-funded propaganda. Read Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent.'

[tomitstube]

@bapyou ~ true, the mccarthy era red scare worked on two levels for the industrialists. one, as a self prescribed crack down on the working class by reason of national defense. the soviet threat was always overplayed for maximum effect, much like terrrorism is today. a tactic used over and over, the 1917 espionage act for example was used on the rosenberg's in 1953, it is now being used on wikileaks in the same trumped up way. once again conservative corporatists are beating the fear drum.

[tomitstube]

@bapyou ~ the second part of that equation, and bookchin may not have the hindsight we possess many years later, is the fact that the 'new deal' created the working class zenith in this country. communists and socialists were themselves becoming disillusioned with the despot stalin - his secret police, gulags. and wide spread killing. plus there were great advances in the american workers quality of life. complacency became the biggest problem besides the witch hunts.

[bapyou]

@tomitstube "communists and socialists were becoming disillusioned with stalin"

Some were, yes, That's why Trotskyist groups (& others) formed.

"advances in the american workers quality of life. complacency became the biggest problem."

Aldous Huxley wrote about this in Brave New World.

Also David Harvey has written about the 1930s housing industry promoting home ownership as an American ideal. The reason? Mortgaged Americans are less likely to strike or otherwise "rock the boat."

[Urdoxa]

bookchin and hess are pretty sharp

[doorsovperception]

Let's hope his idea isn't leading us down the path towards Ayn Rand objectivism or libertarian conservatism; would be as tragic, if not much much worse than what happened in Soviet Russia or the People's REPUBLIC of China. Please let's be careful.

[BryanEKS89]

@doorsovperception

Ayn Rand is far from Anarchist ideas though. Not to mention that Russia and China have never had Anarchist ideals, just Communistic ideas, which is a completely different philosophical idea, which is what he was trying to point out.

[nineteenfiftysixyo]

@BryanEKS89 I heard one of the founders of the KMT was an anarchist so essentially the first president, Sun Yit Lee(dont quote me on that name) of china, was an ambigious (spelled that wrong) anarcho type with pan-asianism on the mind. Also ZACF published a wonderful pamplet on something of the sort.

[kixdirtsevin]

@doorsovperception who..

[briano8713]

@doorsovperception

What did Bookchin say that would make you think that?? "liberatory movement" "freedom from bureaucracy" "failure of the worker's movement"?

Perhaps this isn't your intention at all, but I've found it a quite common and disheartening phenomenon that whenever Bookchin starts to discuss the value of individual freedom, people imply he is on a slippery slope to some "petty bourgeois" dark side. Nonsense.

[AroundSun]

@doorsovperception Libertarianism would be worse than Soviet Russia? What the hell are you smoking pal? I feel bad for you if you want a select few to control every aspect of your life at your expense. Limiting freedoms both economically and socially just to make you feel safe. Using force and coercion for the benevolence of another. Eliminating competition and voluntary exchange for political power. Because somehow political self interest is more nobler than economic self interest right?

[Paulintheoh8]

@doorsovperception What are you referring to?

[noahbere]

@doorsovperception which Idea are you referring to? Anarchism as a whole? if so I would strongly suggest you read Bakunin's Revolutionary Catechism.

[xmattycorex]

i love what murray bookin says