This is why flamboyant denominations tend to crash- people are left with whip-lash when the emotional roller coaster screeches to a halt after the yelling, flopping on the floor and dancing around doesn't evoke some great "heavenly high". The fire of the emotional experience quickly fizzles out, yet they still keep trying to revive it Sunday after Sunday. It just becomes a religious act like in a Catholic church; kneel, sit, stand; kneel, sit, stand; communion; kneel, sit, stand; 12:00, leave.
@brennan2185 Amen, enthusiasm for Christ is not the same as a true passion for Christ. Enthusiasm is fueled by a communal experience, passion is fueled by a personal experience. Passion is fed by an internal fire within us, not from the environment around us. Emotion may accompany passion, but without true passion, emotion wears off. True passion for Christ is as indescribable commitment, drive and determination to know Jesus Christ, not a temporary, physiological response to His presence.
@ShaneWalshMusic I don't know if I would call it passion. I think it's them thinking that you have to flop on the floor, speak a bunch of gibberish, yell and dance sporadically in order to "experience" Christ. It seems to be faith without any reason or learnedness. I've been to Pentecostal churches where the preacher screams more than anything and you can't even understand what he is saying. It's counterproductive and distracting at best. It's not authentic or representative of being human.
@ShaneWalshMusic I realize that, I'm just saying I wouldn't call it either passion or enthusiasm in the sense of my original comment. I do agree with your comment about enthusiasm and passion being different. Enthusiasm was originally used as a derogatory term to describe all the flailing around and such and passion as an intense desire for that wich is holy and pure. I think it is telling to see these acts amongst those that "love to pray standing... on the street corners to be seen by men."
Ah I live high on the Most High 24/7 and this was kinda convicting. It does seem like I make a ritual out of worship.. Or try to relive past experiences....
Peter did the feast of Tabernacles because our Father invites us to rehearse His cycles to learn His story/plan. Minimize and use what Peter was doing as something else? Use His feasts to show His plan. He shows up at His feasts. If you want to show the problem with living on mountain tops, use a different scripture.
I see it's unwise to want to relive experiences, but where does he get "it's a sin to want to relive mountaintop experiences"? Seemed like an assertion without any backing to me...
@whateverzish It's not a sin to remember something fondly on occasion. It IS a sin when you want to be stuck in a certain experience and instead of being open to new experiences that God can use to reveal Himself, you are blinded because you only want to relive one specific moment. It's similar to people in middle age who try to hang on to their 20's because that was the high point in their life and they want to feel that way forever. They're shut off from new experiences in their current age.
God is always there, especially in the secret place where you meet Him, that "High" is encouragement for you, it is a fuel for you to go on, knowing that you are not alone on giving God the glory. That the Holy Spirit filled your life to the brim again to do God's work
This is the reason I dropped out of choir. After a certain series of tunes and certain chord progressions which are designed to evoke certain emotions, some well meaning person would comment "can't you just feel God's presence" or " the Holy Spirit was really present today!", as if He was not there all along, Many felt as if our musical talents did some sort of "rain dance" to command Him down from His throne to join us.
Super true. Man I'm in college, and tons of people are real into emotional worship experiences. Not saying that it's wrong to be emotional when you worship (because I would question if your heart's beating at all if Jesus dying for you doesn't create some emotion), but people don't feel like they really worshiped if they didn't get emotional. People need to understand that worship is about praising God, and has nothing to do with what it makes us feel. Spirit and Truth, brotha!
@blainer19er Blainer - Good stuff! Here's a test: take out the "soundtrack'" for "worship time". Same emotions? Probably dull. Music drives emotions. Try any move without music. A good composer can make you laugh or cry with sounds.
At my age, when I think of Jesus dying for me, it humbles me and I crumble to my knees, not turn up the volume.
There's nothing wrong with having an experience with God an longing to experience Him again in the same way. Where it becomes sin is then you worship the experience instead of worshiping God. I don't understand why Pastor Mark didn't just say that. It actually sounds like he's saying it's sin to desire an experience we've had in the past. That's not sin. That's just longing for God.
Actually, he did say that. He said that people are not really worshiping God, but worshiping worship; they're worshiping that specific time and moment, thinking that it always has to be that time and moment in order for them to worship God because they had an amazing experience. But the mistake happens when people think, "It has to be this way all the time." When that's not true.
You made the statement that Mark Driscoll was as motivated by material possessions as were many charlatans who called themselves "preachers," and I was simply curious as to how you came to this conclusion. Was it something specific that he said or did? What is the basis for your claim, for this man, specifically?
Ok, will he do this for nothing... you know, work a honest job all day long.. .the go and do this for totally nothing.
Does he want to be a real Jesus man.. like the bible says; Sell everything he owns and give to the poor... wait for god to feed him like he feeds the birds
Jesus only said that to the young rich ruler, just to make the point to the guy that he was breaking the commandments in idolizing his earthly possessions too much, not that he actually expects all of us to sell absolutely everything we own. You have to be careful with how you interpret those few verses.
Of course we are called to have hearts of giving, be generous, and give our tithings, and I'm sure Driscoll does a pretty good job at all those things.
@MisterDoctorE Hilarious, how about you listen to Driscoll's sermon on how much each staff member makes, down to the last dollar, and why they are paid that amount. Serving Christ and being a preacher has NOTHING to do with the monetary compensation. The only thing that is important is the example you set for those who watch you. Go back a read your fake Biblical parable as well and get a better understanding about of how Jesus calls us to be something other than what sounds like Robin Hood.
@MisterDoctorE Darn that Bible for making me want to have a great marriage and raise caring sons. That darn Bible messed me up when it showed me the importance of diligence and compassion. If it wasnt for eternal life I suppose you'd be right. Side note: geographically, third party references, archeologically, and historically.....all of failed at disproving ANYTHING in the Bible, check it out brah
So there is a magic man in the sky... who wrote a magic book through some dudes; The magic man wants the same things as any other tyrant on this earth...
Believing the bible or the koran.. or pretty much any magic book, that must be the biggest blasphemy of all...
Yes, God is a tyrant just like a secular judge is a tyrant for putting a man in jail for murder. Why doesn't that judge just forgive the guy. After all, he was made that way. I know it can be easy to simplify Christianity to the assertions of "Magic" and then jump all over it, but there are many, many highly educated Christians out there who would beg to differ.
@MisterDoctorE except that i'm yet to hear of a tyrant who'll willingly die for their own people - what's more, die for the worst and most evil of those people. and i'm yet to hear of a tyrant not forcing their will on their people, but letting them 'turn away'.
the message of a vulnerable, self-sacrificial God who chose a path of humility is - NOT - the story of a tyrant, nor is it a human fiction. in case you hadn't noticed - that's not what human hero stories look like.
I've sadly done that before. But I never really thought of it that way.
When I think abou it, it actually makes a lot of sence. Because in the past, I've tried to find that "feeling" I got when I first found God, But when I couldn't get that "Feeling", It ended up hurting my relationship with God.
This is why flamboyant denominations tend to crash- people are left with whip-lash when the emotional roller coaster screeches to a halt after the yelling, flopping on the floor and dancing around doesn't evoke some great "heavenly high". The fire of the emotional experience quickly fizzles out, yet they still keep trying to revive it Sunday after Sunday. It just becomes a religious act like in a Catholic church; kneel, sit, stand; kneel, sit, stand; communion; kneel, sit, stand; 12:00, leave.
brennan2185 2 months ago
@brennan2185 Amen, enthusiasm for Christ is not the same as a true passion for Christ. Enthusiasm is fueled by a communal experience, passion is fueled by a personal experience. Passion is fed by an internal fire within us, not from the environment around us. Emotion may accompany passion, but without true passion, emotion wears off. True passion for Christ is as indescribable commitment, drive and determination to know Jesus Christ, not a temporary, physiological response to His presence.
ShaneWalshMusic 5 days ago
@ShaneWalshMusic I don't know if I would call it passion. I think it's them thinking that you have to flop on the floor, speak a bunch of gibberish, yell and dance sporadically in order to "experience" Christ. It seems to be faith without any reason or learnedness. I've been to Pentecostal churches where the preacher screams more than anything and you can't even understand what he is saying. It's counterproductive and distracting at best. It's not authentic or representative of being human.
brennan2185 5 days ago
@brennan2185 I'm not calling their actions passion, I'm calling it enthusiasm and emotionalism.
ShaneWalshMusic 5 days ago
@ShaneWalshMusic I realize that, I'm just saying I wouldn't call it either passion or enthusiasm in the sense of my original comment. I do agree with your comment about enthusiasm and passion being different. Enthusiasm was originally used as a derogatory term to describe all the flailing around and such and passion as an intense desire for that wich is holy and pure. I think it is telling to see these acts amongst those that "love to pray standing... on the street corners to be seen by men."
brennan2185 5 days ago
Ah I live high on the Most High 24/7 and this was kinda convicting. It does seem like I make a ritual out of worship.. Or try to relive past experiences....
dzpisx 2 months ago
Peter did the feast of Tabernacles because our Father invites us to rehearse His cycles to learn His story/plan. Minimize and use what Peter was doing as something else? Use His feasts to show His plan. He shows up at His feasts. If you want to show the problem with living on mountain tops, use a different scripture.
Jbstan7 3 months ago
christian cocaine...
thnguyen24 7 months ago
@thnguyen24 Snortin' up tha glory!
dzpisx 2 months ago
I see it's unwise to want to relive experiences, but where does he get "it's a sin to want to relive mountaintop experiences"? Seemed like an assertion without any backing to me...
#honest question#
whateverzish 11 months ago
@whateverzish It's not a sin to remember something fondly on occasion. It IS a sin when you want to be stuck in a certain experience and instead of being open to new experiences that God can use to reveal Himself, you are blinded because you only want to relive one specific moment. It's similar to people in middle age who try to hang on to their 20's because that was the high point in their life and they want to feel that way forever. They're shut off from new experiences in their current age.
yaminoanil 9 months ago 2
Very true & very good explanation
time4u2cit 1 year ago
Thanks, Pastor Mark. This is what I needed to hear.
joydubyadee 1 year ago
God is always there, especially in the secret place where you meet Him, that "High" is encouragement for you, it is a fuel for you to go on, knowing that you are not alone on giving God the glory. That the Holy Spirit filled your life to the brim again to do God's work
enardski 1 year ago
This is the reason I dropped out of choir. After a certain series of tunes and certain chord progressions which are designed to evoke certain emotions, some well meaning person would comment "can't you just feel God's presence" or " the Holy Spirit was really present today!", as if He was not there all along, Many felt as if our musical talents did some sort of "rain dance" to command Him down from His throne to join us.
Movie sound tracks do this.
God is ALWAYS present, music or no music.
houseguy4 1 year ago 30
@houseguy4
Super true. Man I'm in college, and tons of people are real into emotional worship experiences. Not saying that it's wrong to be emotional when you worship (because I would question if your heart's beating at all if Jesus dying for you doesn't create some emotion), but people don't feel like they really worshiped if they didn't get emotional. People need to understand that worship is about praising God, and has nothing to do with what it makes us feel. Spirit and Truth, brotha!
blainer19er 1 year ago
@blainer19er Blainer - Good stuff! Here's a test: take out the "soundtrack'" for "worship time". Same emotions? Probably dull. Music drives emotions. Try any move without music. A good composer can make you laugh or cry with sounds.
At my age, when I think of Jesus dying for me, it humbles me and I crumble to my knees, not turn up the volume.
houseguy4 1 year ago
There's an easier way to explain this
There's nothing wrong with having an experience with God an longing to experience Him again in the same way. Where it becomes sin is then you worship the experience instead of worshiping God. I don't understand why Pastor Mark didn't just say that. It actually sounds like he's saying it's sin to desire an experience we've had in the past. That's not sin. That's just longing for God.
Kevbox2008 1 year ago
@Kevbox2008
Actually, he did say that. He said that people are not really worshiping God, but worshiping worship; they're worshiping that specific time and moment, thinking that it always has to be that time and moment in order for them to worship God because they had an amazing experience. But the mistake happens when people think, "It has to be this way all the time." When that's not true.
caadam87 1 year ago
Sacred moments for this dude = The money of the flock.
MisterDoctorE 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE
Pardon me, but isn't it a bit of a cynical generalization to assume that all preachers are inherently motivated by money?
dracosummoner 1 year ago
@dracosummoner
Not really.. it's money + eternal life in mega luxury.
It's all about greed.
MisterDoctorE 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE
I'm sorry, but that isn't what I asked.
You made the statement that Mark Driscoll was as motivated by material possessions as were many charlatans who called themselves "preachers," and I was simply curious as to how you came to this conclusion. Was it something specific that he said or did? What is the basis for your claim, for this man, specifically?
dracosummoner 1 year ago
@dracosummoner
Ok, will he do this for nothing... you know, work a honest job all day long.. .the go and do this for totally nothing.
Does he want to be a real Jesus man.. like the bible says; Sell everything he owns and give to the poor... wait for god to feed him like he feeds the birds
Will he?
MisterDoctorE 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE
Jesus only said that to the young rich ruler, just to make the point to the guy that he was breaking the commandments in idolizing his earthly possessions too much, not that he actually expects all of us to sell absolutely everything we own. You have to be careful with how you interpret those few verses.
Of course we are called to have hearts of giving, be generous, and give our tithings, and I'm sure Driscoll does a pretty good job at all those things.
MissLoveAndFaith 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE Hilarious, how about you listen to Driscoll's sermon on how much each staff member makes, down to the last dollar, and why they are paid that amount. Serving Christ and being a preacher has NOTHING to do with the monetary compensation. The only thing that is important is the example you set for those who watch you. Go back a read your fake Biblical parable as well and get a better understanding about of how Jesus calls us to be something other than what sounds like Robin Hood.
bransonball 1 year ago
@bransonball
Lucky for you, Jesus was nothing but doom-saying preacher... and BTW most stories about him are FALSE....
You will die.. thats it; Game over... The bible fucked up your only life.
MisterDoctorE 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE Darn that Bible for making me want to have a great marriage and raise caring sons. That darn Bible messed me up when it showed me the importance of diligence and compassion. If it wasnt for eternal life I suppose you'd be right. Side note: geographically, third party references, archeologically, and historically.....all of failed at disproving ANYTHING in the Bible, check it out brah
bransonball 1 year ago
@bransonball
So there is a magic man in the sky... who wrote a magic book through some dudes; The magic man wants the same things as any other tyrant on this earth...
Believing the bible or the koran.. or pretty much any magic book, that must be the biggest blasphemy of all...
Your god is all to human... crazy human
MisterDoctorE 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE
Yes, God is a tyrant just like a secular judge is a tyrant for putting a man in jail for murder. Why doesn't that judge just forgive the guy. After all, he was made that way. I know it can be easy to simplify Christianity to the assertions of "Magic" and then jump all over it, but there are many, many highly educated Christians out there who would beg to differ.
XXXFirebird76XXX 1 year ago
@MisterDoctorE except that i'm yet to hear of a tyrant who'll willingly die for their own people - what's more, die for the worst and most evil of those people. and i'm yet to hear of a tyrant not forcing their will on their people, but letting them 'turn away'.
the message of a vulnerable, self-sacrificial God who chose a path of humility is - NOT - the story of a tyrant, nor is it a human fiction. in case you hadn't noticed - that's not what human hero stories look like.
MarkHolgate 1 year ago
I've sadly done that before. But I never really thought of it that way.
When I think abou it, it actually makes a lot of sence. Because in the past, I've tried to find that "feeling" I got when I first found God, But when I couldn't get that "Feeling", It ended up hurting my relationship with God.
spiritual101 1 year ago
Man, I wish I had heard this a year ago, I could've moved on faster, instead of trying to get that "camp" feeling.
tacopolice101 1 year ago 2
first time i've seen p. mark hold his bible like that...
emmanuelibus 1 year ago
As much as I'm enjoying this message, the filmmaker in me is entirely focused on the great camera moves.
TheSeanWilson 1 year ago
Preach preacher.
danishhald 1 year ago 3
Yes! Many youth groups need to watch this after coming back from their mission trips.
godrox 1 year ago 27
@godrox Very good point.
jaredsshield 1 year ago
Comment removed
godrox 1 year ago