@chefgiovanni Haha, thanks for your concern, and no, I am not high, and yes, sandpaper.
The thing is, all we have right now is 1500 sandpaper, so that means a few hours with some polishing compound and a strop.
Even if this thing has been messed with in higher grits, I have gotten rid of the edge bevel, blending it in with the rest of the grind, making the knife as sharp as it can ever be. Plus convexing it helps it retain a fine edge.
@Febeleh Convexing will not increase edge retention unless you reduce the acuity of the 'v' edge; why in the world would you do this to a Chef's knife. Convex edges are great because they maximize the ratio of friction coefficient to edge retention, but in very thin stock knives, you won't really know much of a difference. Then again, anybody who sharpens their knives freehand will have a convex edge.
@chefgiovanni Send a knife my way sometime, I'll sharpen it up for you with my method, and then you can compare sharpness between the factory edge, and mine.
If you personally are a chef, you would love my convexed edges, as they are better for slicing and light duty kitchen tasks, as well as being able to take heavy abuse, and retain an edge better than a similarly sharp V-grind.
@chefgiovanni A sandpapered then stropped convex edge can and will perform better than a V edge on some expensive 8000 grit stone. I can quite easily get this sharpness on crappy $10 knives with a couple of bucks worth of sandpaper and a home made strop with some car detailing polishing compound.
@baggedandblown Not the case with kitchen knives; first of all, any freehand sharpened edge will be convexed, and due to the extreme thinness of the spine, even a true 'v' edge is not going to add any significant friction coefficient, even with the shoulder of the secondary bevel. Furthermore, properly tempered VG-10 is going to have a much smaller grain structure than some cheapo Wal-Mart buy, and an 8000 grit stone is going to deliver much finer microserrartions & a keener edge
@RebelWrestler45 Have you sharpened any of the inexpensive kitchen knives lately? I would be curious as to at what grit you found the edge properties stabilized and there was no benefit to a finer grit.
@CliffStamp The cheapest knives I use are an old Cutco French Chef in 440A (got it back when I worked for them, and didn't know dick about knives) as well as Forschner, Tojiro in white # 2, and Fujiwara's carbon line. Cutco does have a good heat treat on 440A, so carbides are well disbursed and decently fine; edge retention is shit, but it strops and polishes up nicely. Forschner is not worth going over 2k grit, it's grain structure isn't fine enough, and wear resistance is god awful
@RebelWrestler45 That is interesting. I picked up a bunch of cheaper ones recently. They have improved a lot since I last looked at them, most are even using sub-zero quenching now so the edges tend to form more crisp as there is less austenite. I am curious to see if 1000, 3000 or 8000 and then sub-micron is of benefit for each. Like most they tend to be a bit junky at first but stabilize after a few sharpenings. What edge angles do you typically use?
@CliffStamp I have serious problems with Cutco and their marketing scheme, they lie to their employees even more than they do their customers, they are agents of misinformation. The deep cryo definitely helps refine the grain structure of 440A, so it will benefit from sub micron but its still 440A: way too much free chromium, way too little carbon. To get decent performance out of this stamped hollow ground crap, I use a 30 degree secondary bevel with a big ass 50 degree microbevel
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, 440A has a coarse carbide structure, but so do lots of popular steels, it isn't like VG-10 or 154CM have significantly smaller primary carbides. The main problem with 440A in general is too cool an austenization and pure air quench, with a short and hot soak, oil + cry you can get 60/61 HRC and a respectable blade, if you like high carbide steels.
@CliffStamp 440A treated to 60/61 HRC will be too brittle; wear resistance is bad enough as it is, adding the propensity for microchipping just to increase edge retention would be a bad idea. I'm a tool steel guy myself; I love 52100, Hitachi's Aogami steels, and any of the CPM process tool steels (especially CPM M4).
@RebelWrestler45 440A at 60 HRC would be significantly tougher than VG-10 at the same hardness so I don't know why you would have a cause for concern there as if you are ok with one you would definitely be with the other.
I would have the hardness there in the manner described not simply for edge retention but for ease of sharpening as the finer aus-grain and reduction in retained austenite would reduce burr formation during honing.
@RebelWrestler45 I don't know why you would have a problem with too much free chromium, it just provides greater corrosion resistance. The free chromium is only about half a percent higher than 12C27M with a 1100 C soak which is designed to make it dishwasher safe. If you don't want that then you could adjust the C/Cr content of course to get greater hardness but few actually run knives harder anyway than 59/60 HRC, even if using AEB-L.
@CliffStamp High amounts of free chromium have a propensity to clump and form larger carbides during heat treat, even in PM process stainless. Free chromium also reduces toughness and especially ductility. AEB-L is a much lower alloy stainless, with way less free chromium; with proper HT a much finer grain structure can be achieved; hence why the Swedes developed it as a razor steel.
@RebelWrestler45 Free chromium is the chromium dissolved in the austenite during soak, it is called free as it isn't bound in carbide and thus it is what gives corrosion resistance as opposed to bound chromium which is left in the carbide.
Yes, AEB-L's ratio of carbon and chromium puts it almost on the saturation line at 1100C thus it has a tiny primary carbide volume. 440A is actually better in this respect than VG-10, 154CM etc. .
@CliffStamp Yes, free chromium is chromium not contained in carbides, but during heat treat the crystalline matrix of the steel is not yet set, and the higher concentration of chromium tends to form larger carbides when quenched. 440A has a lower primary carbide volume than VG-10, but properly tempered VG-10 will have smaller carbides formed with vanadium. I'm no steel snob, 440A gets a huge performance boost through deep cryo (like D2 does), but the stuff still aggravates me.
@RebelWrestler45 The vanadium carbides in VG-10 will keep the aus-grain from expanding during the hardening yes, but the primary chromium carbides are still just as large. You can see micrographs of the steel in Messerklingen und Stahl which shows the same large primary aggregates as 440C. VG-10 is just more forgiving during hardening and the cobalt solid solution strengthens the matrix but only at a given carbide volume.
@RebelWrestler45 VG-10 tends to have a good reputation and experience mainly as it is used in high end knives so you see the best it can be. 440A unfortunately is the exact opposite. Plus in general when 440 series is used it is left that vague, odds are you are not even getting 440A at times but anything really as 440 isn't an actual steel name, just a label like Carbon V so they could use anything really.
@RebelWrestler45 I can understand why you may not care for the carbide fraction in 440A, I don't have a use for high wear resistance in a kitchen knife steel either as by the time the knife is so dull that carbide volume is relevant I would sharpen it anyway. But I don't see why you would be critical of 440A in this respect and be accepting of VG-10 which isn't better in this regard at all, and similar is a very high carbide aggregate.
@CliffStamp The difference is that VG-10 has the wear resistance to make up for its lack of ductility and toughness; but VG-10 also has vanadium, which forms smaller, harder carbides than chromium thus refining the steel's grain structure. VG-10 also seems to strop surprisingly well, even though it has poor toughness. VG-10 was developed for tree grafting, and it actually has a fairly fine grain structure for a non PM stainless.
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, the wear resistance of VG-10 is comparable to 440C. 440A offers a higher corrosion resistance and toughness. It is more for someone who wants a dishwasher safe knife which can stand up to things like being stored in a drawer and will take minimal damage and be relatively easy to repair as the grindability is higher than VG-10. The main problem with it is that it is used in cheap knives and thus is commonly seen with cheap heat treatments.
@CliffStamp Tojiro is probably the best out there for a bargain Chef's knife in terms of sharpness potential and edge retention in kitchen use; at around 60 bucks you can get a Gyuto in Hitachi white #2 which will take a lightsaber edge. I have shaved with the stuff and so has @MrKnifeFanatic. This stuff will benefit from the finest of the CBN honing compounds.
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, but that is still fairly expensive. You can get a full flat ground, full bolstered blade for about $5 (Chicago Cutlery), edges are thin and relatively acute (10 dps).
The CBN compounds are interesting. I have no idea what they are doing because the aus-grain and especially carbides are at least 10 times larger than the finer CBN compounds.
Can you see a measurable difference from the common half micron abrasives?
@baggedandblown umm.... most walmart knives won't even TAKE an 8,000 grit edge...... let alone benefit from polish. The carbide structure of those steels is HORRIBLE, resulting in your edge disappearing due to CARBIDE FALLOUT!! While you can make a walmart knife cut decent, it doesn't last, WILL NOT take a steep edge, and can't take a polish at all. I sharpen every single day buddy, and professionally also, I know what I'm talking about. Kasumi's are at least on par with Shun = not bad
@MrKnifeFanatic Have you tried any of the recent relatively cheap offerings? I ask because kitchen cutlery has taken a pretty significant jump in recent years and it isn't difficult not to find a chef's knife at Wal-Mart (or similar) with a full flat grind, 0.010" thick edge ground at 10-15 dps. The initial sharpness is usually capable of slicing newsprint and just a little behind what is needed to push cut a tomato (without an angle).
@MrKnifeFanatic Based on the level of sharpness I have seen you demonstrate, even the best of what I have seen is still only about half as sharp as what I would guess you can achieve, maybe a little less. But you are on the far right of the distribution curve. If you take a look at most sharpening video's they stop when they can slice a piece of paper, you have demonstrated cutting light plastic bags which is a significant step beyond that.
If my knife gets dull, I sharpen it. I dont need to spend 140 for a damn knife bc i dont cut my shit up-side-down clamped on a vice. But that's just me.
@sparky7679 if you call up ChefDepot and your a student they will give you a discount, I think the 8 in is aprox. 140.00 click on my name, SUB and follow link to the site
@blindedby2monkeys OK, you bitches need to chill. I made a pasta dish with garlic, shallots, oregano, porcini, chicken and the tomatoes. It was tasty, now please chill out.
ya ur weak ass probably put all all the pressure you got haha
THEPARADISEWOOD 2 weeks ago
@THEPARADISEWOOD Troll, your biggest muscle is like my smallest. Without taking a breath I could easily defeat you.
chefgiovanni 2 weeks ago
my hand forged by me is sharper i held a tomato 2 inches from my knife and ti cut it in half
yoo8151 3 weeks ago
@yoo8151 Wow ! Nice knife! How did it taste ? What variety of tomatoe?
How ripe was it ?
chefgiovanni 3 weeks ago
@chefgiovanni it was the same color maby a little green
yoo8151 3 weeks ago
No pressure on the knife when you first cut the tomato? You're full of shit.
Umber54 3 weeks ago 2
@Umber54 you are a perfect example of a wimpy troll.
chefgiovanni 3 weeks ago
And that's how true men slice their tomatoes -- by throwing them at a knife.
AWS137 1 month ago 6
@AWS137 Not exactly, this video was done as a reply to other knife tests
chefgiovanni 1 month ago
But, I'm not going to buy it.
Too busy loving the BK2.
Febeleh 1 month ago
Well having a knife that sharp out of the box would be pretty boring.
Oh well, it still has a crappy V-grind, I guess it still leaves me the fun of convexing it.
And then polishing it to perfection with a 1500 grit piece of sandpaper, a cheap strop, and a load of time.
Febeleh 1 month ago
@Febeleh You made a mistake and typed SANDPAPER. Are you high ? This knife has been hand honed 1000, 300, 8000 grit, then polished to perfection.
chefgiovanni 1 month ago
@chefgiovanni Haha, thanks for your concern, and no, I am not high, and yes, sandpaper.
The thing is, all we have right now is 1500 sandpaper, so that means a few hours with some polishing compound and a strop.
Even if this thing has been messed with in higher grits, I have gotten rid of the edge bevel, blending it in with the rest of the grind, making the knife as sharp as it can ever be. Plus convexing it helps it retain a fine edge.
Febeleh 1 month ago
@Febeleh Convexing will not increase edge retention unless you reduce the acuity of the 'v' edge; why in the world would you do this to a Chef's knife. Convex edges are great because they maximize the ratio of friction coefficient to edge retention, but in very thin stock knives, you won't really know much of a difference. Then again, anybody who sharpens their knives freehand will have a convex edge.
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Don't you mean minimize friction coefficient?
Nice distinction between the effect of curvature vs thickness in regards to edge profiles.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@chefgiovanni Send a knife my way sometime, I'll sharpen it up for you with my method, and then you can compare sharpness between the factory edge, and mine.
If you personally are a chef, you would love my convexed edges, as they are better for slicing and light duty kitchen tasks, as well as being able to take heavy abuse, and retain an edge better than a similarly sharp V-grind.
Febeleh 1 month ago
@chefgiovanni A sandpapered then stropped convex edge can and will perform better than a V edge on some expensive 8000 grit stone. I can quite easily get this sharpness on crappy $10 knives with a couple of bucks worth of sandpaper and a home made strop with some car detailing polishing compound.
baggedandblown 1 month ago
@baggedandblown Not the case with kitchen knives; first of all, any freehand sharpened edge will be convexed, and due to the extreme thinness of the spine, even a true 'v' edge is not going to add any significant friction coefficient, even with the shoulder of the secondary bevel. Furthermore, properly tempered VG-10 is going to have a much smaller grain structure than some cheapo Wal-Mart buy, and an 8000 grit stone is going to deliver much finer microserrartions & a keener edge
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Damn padna, you on a roll! LOL right on!
MrKnifeFanatic 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Have you sharpened any of the inexpensive kitchen knives lately? I would be curious as to at what grit you found the edge properties stabilized and there was no benefit to a finer grit.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp The cheapest knives I use are an old Cutco French Chef in 440A (got it back when I worked for them, and didn't know dick about knives) as well as Forschner, Tojiro in white # 2, and Fujiwara's carbon line. Cutco does have a good heat treat on 440A, so carbides are well disbursed and decently fine; edge retention is shit, but it strops and polishes up nicely. Forschner is not worth going over 2k grit, it's grain structure isn't fine enough, and wear resistance is god awful
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 That is interesting. I picked up a bunch of cheaper ones recently. They have improved a lot since I last looked at them, most are even using sub-zero quenching now so the edges tend to form more crisp as there is less austenite. I am curious to see if 1000, 3000 or 8000 and then sub-micron is of benefit for each. Like most they tend to be a bit junky at first but stabilize after a few sharpenings. What edge angles do you typically use?
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp I have serious problems with Cutco and their marketing scheme, they lie to their employees even more than they do their customers, they are agents of misinformation. The deep cryo definitely helps refine the grain structure of 440A, so it will benefit from sub micron but its still 440A: way too much free chromium, way too little carbon. To get decent performance out of this stamped hollow ground crap, I use a 30 degree secondary bevel with a big ass 50 degree microbevel
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, 440A has a coarse carbide structure, but so do lots of popular steels, it isn't like VG-10 or 154CM have significantly smaller primary carbides. The main problem with 440A in general is too cool an austenization and pure air quench, with a short and hot soak, oil + cry you can get 60/61 HRC and a respectable blade, if you like high carbide steels.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp 440A treated to 60/61 HRC will be too brittle; wear resistance is bad enough as it is, adding the propensity for microchipping just to increase edge retention would be a bad idea. I'm a tool steel guy myself; I love 52100, Hitachi's Aogami steels, and any of the CPM process tool steels (especially CPM M4).
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 440A at 60 HRC would be significantly tougher than VG-10 at the same hardness so I don't know why you would have a cause for concern there as if you are ok with one you would definitely be with the other.
I would have the hardness there in the manner described not simply for edge retention but for ease of sharpening as the finer aus-grain and reduction in retained austenite would reduce burr formation during honing.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 I don't know why you would have a problem with too much free chromium, it just provides greater corrosion resistance. The free chromium is only about half a percent higher than 12C27M with a 1100 C soak which is designed to make it dishwasher safe. If you don't want that then you could adjust the C/Cr content of course to get greater hardness but few actually run knives harder anyway than 59/60 HRC, even if using AEB-L.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp High amounts of free chromium have a propensity to clump and form larger carbides during heat treat, even in PM process stainless. Free chromium also reduces toughness and especially ductility. AEB-L is a much lower alloy stainless, with way less free chromium; with proper HT a much finer grain structure can be achieved; hence why the Swedes developed it as a razor steel.
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Free chromium is the chromium dissolved in the austenite during soak, it is called free as it isn't bound in carbide and thus it is what gives corrosion resistance as opposed to bound chromium which is left in the carbide.
Yes, AEB-L's ratio of carbon and chromium puts it almost on the saturation line at 1100C thus it has a tiny primary carbide volume. 440A is actually better in this respect than VG-10, 154CM etc. .
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp Yes, free chromium is chromium not contained in carbides, but during heat treat the crystalline matrix of the steel is not yet set, and the higher concentration of chromium tends to form larger carbides when quenched. 440A has a lower primary carbide volume than VG-10, but properly tempered VG-10 will have smaller carbides formed with vanadium. I'm no steel snob, 440A gets a huge performance boost through deep cryo (like D2 does), but the stuff still aggravates me.
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 The vanadium carbides in VG-10 will keep the aus-grain from expanding during the hardening yes, but the primary chromium carbides are still just as large. You can see micrographs of the steel in Messerklingen und Stahl which shows the same large primary aggregates as 440C. VG-10 is just more forgiving during hardening and the cobalt solid solution strengthens the matrix but only at a given carbide volume.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 VG-10 tends to have a good reputation and experience mainly as it is used in high end knives so you see the best it can be. 440A unfortunately is the exact opposite. Plus in general when 440 series is used it is left that vague, odds are you are not even getting 440A at times but anything really as 440 isn't an actual steel name, just a label like Carbon V so they could use anything really.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 I can understand why you may not care for the carbide fraction in 440A, I don't have a use for high wear resistance in a kitchen knife steel either as by the time the knife is so dull that carbide volume is relevant I would sharpen it anyway. But I don't see why you would be critical of 440A in this respect and be accepting of VG-10 which isn't better in this regard at all, and similar is a very high carbide aggregate.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp The difference is that VG-10 has the wear resistance to make up for its lack of ductility and toughness; but VG-10 also has vanadium, which forms smaller, harder carbides than chromium thus refining the steel's grain structure. VG-10 also seems to strop surprisingly well, even though it has poor toughness. VG-10 was developed for tree grafting, and it actually has a fairly fine grain structure for a non PM stainless.
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, the wear resistance of VG-10 is comparable to 440C. 440A offers a higher corrosion resistance and toughness. It is more for someone who wants a dishwasher safe knife which can stand up to things like being stored in a drawer and will take minimal damage and be relatively easy to repair as the grindability is higher than VG-10. The main problem with it is that it is used in cheap knives and thus is commonly seen with cheap heat treatments.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@CliffStamp Tojiro is probably the best out there for a bargain Chef's knife in terms of sharpness potential and edge retention in kitchen use; at around 60 bucks you can get a Gyuto in Hitachi white #2 which will take a lightsaber edge. I have shaved with the stuff and so has @MrKnifeFanatic. This stuff will benefit from the finest of the CBN honing compounds.
RebelWrestler45 1 month ago
@RebelWrestler45 Yes, but that is still fairly expensive. You can get a full flat ground, full bolstered blade for about $5 (Chicago Cutlery), edges are thin and relatively acute (10 dps).
The CBN compounds are interesting. I have no idea what they are doing because the aus-grain and especially carbides are at least 10 times larger than the finer CBN compounds.
Can you see a measurable difference from the common half micron abrasives?
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@baggedandblown umm.... most walmart knives won't even TAKE an 8,000 grit edge...... let alone benefit from polish. The carbide structure of those steels is HORRIBLE, resulting in your edge disappearing due to CARBIDE FALLOUT!! While you can make a walmart knife cut decent, it doesn't last, WILL NOT take a steep edge, and can't take a polish at all. I sharpen every single day buddy, and professionally also, I know what I'm talking about. Kasumi's are at least on par with Shun = not bad
MrKnifeFanatic 1 month ago
@MrKnifeFanatic Have you tried any of the recent relatively cheap offerings? I ask because kitchen cutlery has taken a pretty significant jump in recent years and it isn't difficult not to find a chef's knife at Wal-Mart (or similar) with a full flat grind, 0.010" thick edge ground at 10-15 dps. The initial sharpness is usually capable of slicing newsprint and just a little behind what is needed to push cut a tomato (without an angle).
CliffStamp 1 month ago
@MrKnifeFanatic Based on the level of sharpness I have seen you demonstrate, even the best of what I have seen is still only about half as sharp as what I would guess you can achieve, maybe a little less. But you are on the far right of the distribution curve. If you take a look at most sharpening video's they stop when they can slice a piece of paper, you have demonstrated cutting light plastic bags which is a significant step beyond that.
CliffStamp 1 month ago
I'm guessing the onion didn't slice properly ;)
plowy 3 months ago
why would you need a sharp knife like that????
snowydro1 3 months ago
@snowydro1 to...cut...things... duh... -____- makes cutting jobs easier...blunt knife are are you not having a knife..just a metal peace thingy..
oration24 3 months ago
If my knife gets dull, I sharpen it. I dont need to spend 140 for a damn knife bc i dont cut my shit up-side-down clamped on a vice. But that's just me.
kryptoniterxn117 3 months ago
However, this knife is beautiful and looks pretty damn sharp.
xquisitaz 3 months ago
I would put money on the kyocera kyotop ceramic being sharper.
xquisitaz 3 months ago
I love this knife I have got 24 cm I just want to ask which do you think is better, kasumi or shun?
kvako1976 4 months ago
how much?
sparky7679 4 months ago
@sparky7679 if you call up ChefDepot and your a student they will give you a discount, I think the 8 in is aprox. 140.00 click on my name, SUB and follow link to the site
chefgiovanni 4 months ago
@chefgiovanni I see you;re Kasumi and raise you a Takeda.
XMetalChefX 3 months ago
what a waste of a perfectly good tomatoe
Juel555 4 months ago
@Juel555 what you gonna eat it whole ??
TheTenshitobias 3 months ago
the weight of the knife, the weight of the knife, the weight of the knife, urg see the weight of the knife!
derFnosduH 4 months ago
now try a coconut.
goodbad1325 4 months ago
This would be great on fruit ninja. :D
5oreo999 4 months ago
billyboy888 this is not a blog for dumb asses, or trolls.
chefgiovanni 4 months ago
@Scribanerds I smell a Troll. We feed Troll's to the lions.
chefgiovanni 5 months ago
Buy a sword instead...
JESUSISGREATEST 7 months ago
@JESUSISGREATEST YES, if I am in the War, I will need a Sword !
chefgiovanni 6 months ago
see video response for another test of this knife
chefgiovanni 7 months ago
i hope your going to use these tomatoes.. lol.
Londonerizee 9 months ago
@Londonerizee Of course, we ate Grilled Mahi Mahi with Paella, Blue Tortilla Chips and Pico De Gallo made from the tomatoes
chefgiovanni 9 months ago
@chefgiovanni mmmmmmm. Seriously that sentence made my mouth water.. im in love with cooking, excellent challenge by the way...! :)
Londonerizee 9 months ago
@Londonerizee no and they didnt go to african children
blindedby2monkeys 6 months ago
@blindedby2monkeys wtf you on about you racist piece of shit!
Londonerizee 6 months ago
@Londonerizee woah nutjob you forgot to take your crazies medication
blindedby2monkeys 6 months ago
@blindedby2monkeys OK, you bitches need to chill. I made a pasta dish with garlic, shallots, oregano, porcini, chicken and the tomatoes. It was tasty, now please chill out.
chefgiovanni 6 months ago