Rocky Marciano vs. Jersey Joe Walcott I - Part IV

[elvislvr111]

A great showing of class and technique by both fighters. Thanks for putting this up for people to enjoy!

[johnwtanneriv]

Robinson that is

[shelezur]

And please check the 8 th round of this fight j.j.w is outjabing marciano I think ali would do it in his prime all 15 rounds. And please take also in consideration that j.j.w was older than marciano and not in the same phsical condition thats why he was knocked out in the 12 round . Marciano ?

[truebeliever786]

@shelezur

I believe you are correct. In Round 7 Jersey Joe Walcott was also beating on Marciano with the jab. Up till Round 7, I had 5 rounds for Walcott and 2 for Marciano.

I would give a Marciano-Ali fight to Ali by Unanimous Decision.

Plus, Ali had a much greater chin than Jersey Joe Walcott and the proof is that he went 10 rounds with a partially broken Jaw against Kenny Norton and his jaw was broken in the last round, yet he managed to go the distance.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 Ken Norton didn' t have a huge punch. Ali nearly got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier (round 11), not to mention the great Sonny Banks.

The reality is, Ali would win some fights by decision, and would get knocked out sometimes too. Young Ali would easily get KO'd by Marciano if he hit him cleanly, old Ali would get his arms broken trying Rope-A-Dope.

Keep in mind, this is Marciano before his prime. He had only been fighting a few years.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Ken Norton did have a hard punch. He broke Ali's jaw, partially in Round 2 and Ali fought 10 rounds with a partially broken Jaw, which was completely broken in Round 12. And he took Earnie Shavers' hits for 15 rounds and survived, who was the hardest hitter in history according to all those who fought him.

This isn't Marciano before his prime. He was 29 in this fight. This was his prime.

Ali would never get KOd by anyone. He'd beat Marciano on points by dancing and jabbing.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 Norton didn't have a big punch at all, no one that fought him considered him a big puncher. He probably hit Ali with his jaw open, and of course can break the jaw then.

Ali was nearly knocked out by Henry Cooper. He was nearly knocked out by Joe Frazier. He was knocked down by Sonny Banks.

Even Ali said Marciano was better than Frazier, and he sure hit harder. In fact, Marciano knocked Ali down with a body shot, and Ali complained about how hard he hit.

[johnwtanneriv]

@TA152H01 In your evidence against Ali's jaw, I got two "nearly knocked outs" and a "knocked down" two of those fights he won and the other he avenged twice. If ali's jaw wasn't one of the best of all time, his heart surely was. Not to mention prime ali's head movement and foot work was so outstanding he was nearly impossible to get clean licks on. There were few men ever that I would say were harder to actually knock out than Ali.

[TA152H01]

@johnwtanneriv Ali actually did have a very good chin in the latter part of his career, and had a lot of heart too. No question about it. In the first part of his career he went down, and went down hard. Young Ali would never have been taken a clean shot by Marciano, old Ali would never have been able to take a whole 15 rounds of beating from Marciano.

Hagler was probably the best chin of any fighter. He never really went down, or got seriously hurt. Ali was a cut or two below that.

[johnwtanneriv]

@TA152H01 I think you completely overestimate Marciano, a very good fighter, but was slower and smaller than ali. How would Marciano ever get inside to even get a clean shot off?

While I agree, p4p, Hagler had one of the best chins ever, better than ali, my vote for best goes to George Chuvalo...had two fights stopped on cuts but was never knocked down or seriously hurt. He wasn't particularly skilled and fought some of the greatest ever

[TA152H01]

@johnwtanneriv Chuvalo was stopped by Foreman, and not on cuts. But, he's certainly a possibility. I pick Hagler because Hagler not only never went down, but never was even really stunned seriously, and fought bombers and took their best shots. Hearns and Mugabi knocked everyone out, and Hagler waded through shot after shot.

Marciano would have no trouble with Ali. Ali couldn't fight guys that leaned back, and couldn't move for 15 rounds, ever. Style-wise, bad fight for Ali.

[johnwtanneriv]

@TA152H01 He was "stopped" but it wasn't the right decision. Foreman was blasting him over and over, but never knocked Chuvalo down, and when the ref stopped the fight, he is reported to have yelled in outrage, "What? Are you crazy!?"

[TA152H01]

@johnwtanneriv Chuvalo was defenseless, and taking heavy shot after heavy shot, and obviously had been hurt badly. Was he out? Absolutely not. But, he was taking an unwholesome beating, and couldn't defend himself well.

Hagler never looked like that. Never.

Still, I'd probably pick Chuvalo as number 2, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong, or making a crazy statement. He's also a good choice. I just can't pick anyone over Hagler, he was just so damn tough.

[johnwtanneriv]

@TA152H01 Well, for once, we agree. I would probably pick Hagler 2. Sugar Ray and Kid Gavilan not far behind

[johnwtanneriv]

@TA152H01 heavyweights so to never go down says a lot ab taking punishment.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Yes Norton did punch Ali when his mouth was open, but still he had pretty hard punches. Hard punches weren't his trade mark but he was still a pretty hard hitter.

Ali got up quickly against Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier. That shows what a good chin he has.

Marciano hit harder than Frazier with his right, but Frazier's left was better than Marciano's. Marciano didn't knock Ali down, what're you talking about? He just hit him hard in the arms and his arms were sore as hell.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 He got up quick against Cooper? He was almost unconscious and his corner split his glove to get him time because it was at the end of the round. He was BADLY hurt by a guy that couldn't hit like Marciano. Ali was badly hurt in the 11th round and it should have been ruled a knockdown, because he stumbled into the ropes and was held up.

15th Round was just gravy.

Don't post unless you have information.  Marciano, at 46, decked Ali with a body shot. Look it up.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Ali wasn't unconscious at all, plus Henry Cooper had a devastating left hook. He got up and won the fight. I don't think Ali's corner tore the glove on purpose.

I know Ali was knocked down in the 11th but in the first Frazier fight he didn't have the speed and endurance he had in his prime. I know Marciano hurt Ali with his shots, but I've never read anywhere that he decked him, nor have I heard Marciano saying this. Can you show me some proof?

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 Ali went on to win on cuts, and was badly, badly hurt and was lucky for the end of the round, and a cut glove. If that was Marciano that hit him, Ali would have needed a pillow to spend the night.

Ali was exposed by Frazier, not because he was old, but because he never learned how to fight properly, and found a guy good enough to show it. His mistakes were exposed.

Do a search, I can't post a link. EastSideBoxing has info on it. Pacheco was the one that spilled it.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

I doubt it man. Frazier knocked him out in Round 15 yet he got up in 4 and for the rest of the Round they were both going at each other. Based on Ali's fights, I can confidently conclude that no one could ever knock him out. If anyone could beat him, it'd be by decision.

Yes, Ali's weaknesses were shown by Frazier and Norton, but those two were great fighters and brought the best out of Ali.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 Frazier was a one-handed fighter, who was not as good a fighter as Marciano according to no less than Muhammad Ali, who did not consider Frazier a hard hitter (although he did not consider him a powder puff either).

Frazier nearly knocked Ali out in Round 11, and Round 15 was all Frazier, Ali had nothing. But, both were exhausted (who, besides Marciano, wouldn't be?).

Neither were great fighters, especially Norton.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Ali did consider Frazier a hard hitter. Ali said: 'Next to Frazier, that's the hardest I've every been hit' after the fight with Earnie Shavers. Frazier's hits were deadly and he wasn't one-handed. He used both hands. Just see Round 6, 7 and 8 of Ali-Frazier 1.

Both were fucking great fighters, Norton and Frazier. How the hell can you say that? Now you're showing you're an idiot.

Norton gave a prime Larry Holmes hell and he gave Ali hell as well, two legendary all-time greats.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 You're not only an idiot, you're a liar. Ali considered Shavers the hardest hitter. He, in an interview, was asked if he was looking for a knockout against Frazier. He said no, he wasn't a heavy hitter like Foreman or Shavers, or EVEN Frazier. Obviously, he considered Frazier a cut below.

Frazier was a one-handed fighter, Marciano two. Ali said Marciano was better.

Holmes dominated Norton until he got tired. Dominated.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Yes, I've heard him say that, but in the 'Facing Ali' documentary Ali is quoted to have said: 'Next to Frazier, that's the hardest I've every been hit', that's a fact.

Frazier fought two handed. Look at Rounds 6, 7 and 8 of Superfight 1 and analyse, before talking shit.

Marciano was better, I agree, but Frazier was a freaking great fighter, a legend.

Holmes didn't dominate Norton. He won a narrow split decision with great difficulty. Look at the fight, before talking.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 I guess you don't know what being a one-handed fighter means. Frazier is well known being one. It doesn't mean he NEVER uses it, it means it's not terribly effective. Marciano could knock a man out with both hands, Frazier couldn't knock a woman out with his right. He is the most used example of a one-handed fighter.

Frazier only ever beat Ali, a fight I think he lost. After that, he beat only marginal fighters. Bonavena decked him. Quarry gave him Hell. Foreman?

[TA152H01]

Holmes won almost every early round. I didn't think the fight was close, but judges always prefer the well known guy. He out boxed him and out punched him. Norton only got close when Holmes got tired.

Young beat him soundly too, and got a bad decision. Norton had no answer for the left hook. Ever.

Cooney, Foreman, Shavers, etc... Anyone halfway decent beat this scrub. That's not a great fighter. He only ever beat Ali. Which other great did he?

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Unbelievable. You disrespect Kenny Norton???

He nearly beat Larry Holmes. He gave him hell. He beat Jerry Quarry in 5 rounds, who was pretty damn good (Quarry knocked Shavers out First Round).

Against punchers like Cooney, Foreman and Shavers he wasn't good at all, but he gave boxers like Larry Holmes and Ali hell, in the words of Earnie Shavers. Plus he was 36 years old against Cooney. He's a great fighter, definitely a great fighter, a legend.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 It's kind of funny when people talk this nonsense. It means they aren't thinking for themselves, because if they do, Norton falls below even very good.

He beat an out of shape Ali. Who else? Quarry?  Quarry had no defense, and only had two weeks to prepare for the fight.

He got beaten soundly by Holmes. Watch the fight. He lost to Young. He got ass-raped by Foreman, Cooney, and Shavers. He only beat one great fighter, but lost to many lesser fighters.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Norton was a great fighter. He lost to an out of shape Ali, but in Fight 3, Ali wasn't out of shape and he beat him then, even though the decision was given to Ali wrongly.

And he nearly beat Holmes. Holmes didn't dominate. Holmes was tired and exhausted bad after the fight.

There's no excuse for Quarry. He lost. That's it. And Quarry was a pretty good fighter as well.

Foreman and Shavers were both heavy punchers and those were Norton's weakness and against Cooney he was 36 years.

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 I scored fight 3 8-7 Ali, so I don't agree that Norton beat an way past his prime, fat, fighter who had no idea how to fight Norton, but still managed to beat him.

Holmes beat the ever loving crap out of him the whole fight. After a close round 1, Norton got completely outclassed by a guy that didn't have the best tools to beat him (left hook).

Quarry had two weeks, and wasn't even close to a great fighter, especially past his prime.

[truebeliever786]

@TA152H01

Ali wasn't fat in that fight, he was in decent shape and yes he was past his prime, but Norton wasn't all too young either. He was only 3 years younger than Ali. He gave Ali hell and the fight was pretty much even, till Norton gave Ali that flurry at the end of Round 15.

And Norton fought a prime Larry and he fought really well against him, nearly beat him. The whole fight they went at each other.

Quarry and Norton were the same age man, so no claim there...

[TA152H01]

@truebeliever786 Watch Holmes/Norton. If you think he fought well, it's a waste of time even talking to you. He got dominated until Holmes got tired, and even then couldn't win. And Holmes didn't have a hook.

Age doesn't always indicate prime. Look at Hopkins. Ali looked very slow, and had bad balance in Norton 3. Compared that to Norton 2.

Ali was 212 his first fight with Norton. He was overweight in Norton 3, and didn't move well. Watch both fights. HUGE difference.

[shelezur]

Rocky was a great heavyweight but I dont think he was the greatest. In my opinion rocky wouldnt have any chance again muhammed ali before they got and after they give him the lisence to boxing back.Which means before and after ali's prime.I have watched all matches of ali and I do believe that he would play with rocky like a cat is playing with a mouse. on those years boxers havent got any strateji the only way of boxing was to blow all the time untill one of the opponens is knock down.

[nathanwilefrazier]

RM, oddly enough, LOOKS like of the most telegraphic punchers of all time. At 4:49, RM winds up to throw a left hook to the head, JJW slips/ducks away from it "a year ahead of time," and RM "turns it under" to an uppercut to the body (JJW's slip raises his elbow & exposes his liver too). Thus RM turns his "telegraphic punches" into feints - and has time to add a ton of wind-up power as a bonus.

5:36 Slip inside JJW's left jab - Uncoil with a left uppercut to the body & slip the right cross.

[pnutbutrncrackers]

Tough hombres.

[steamboat6161]

Thanks,74GD

[triggert531]

I've got Walcott ahead on points...especially after that ass beating he put on Rocky in the 12th. Rocky obviously saw long enough to introduce SUZY Q to the left side of Walcott's face in the 13th. It is a miracle Walcott lived.

[bassreeves1965]

yeah,walcott ran outta gas.

[zulukingwarrior2002]

Both were magnificent fighters....Walcott just runed out of gas in the later rounds.... but was one of the most vicious heavyweights in boxing history....to bad fights now are not at this raw gutted aptitude....this was KO Boxing

[KentuckyBrad1980]

to this point in round 8, i scored it 4 rounds for Marciano and 3 for Walcott, in my opinion, walcott won the first three rounds

[TA152H01]

I don't know how they were scoring this fight for Walcott, he's looked beaten since the fourth round and looks like he's just trying to survive. Marciano is relentless.

[kennethjohnali]

ron and fez noon to 3