I like Chesterton very much & I am a thoroughly convinced Catholic, but here Chesterton has a very lame argument. If I take a a diamond & toss into a pile of mud, it gets covered in mud & it's beauty is obscured. Underneath the mud it is still the pure diamond. One just needs to take from the mud & wash it off. Of course that presents a false notion of how we came to have the scriptures, no one ever just found the scriptures as if they were buried in the woods on a golden book.
@VictorLepanto I think it only works if you keep the metaphor in the realm of foreign religion. It'd be like a group said that the Book of Mormon was the only source of divine truth, but Joseph Smith and all other Mormons taught lies.
When I first read this quote as a Protestant, I didn't understand it at all because I'd never heard the point that we have the Bible on the authority of the Catholic Church (or else on no authority at all). Chesterton assumed a lot of knowledge in his audience; people aren't so educated in religious matters these days. Now that I'm Catholic I appreciate him much better. :)
It is weird hearing this quote read by the "Sexy Grandpa Time" guy of the Geico commericals...
It is not true that before the Protestant Revolt nobody tried to pick and choose which parts of Christianity they wanted to adhere to or believe in. See "The Great Heresies" by Belloc for a quick overview. You can easily find it on-line. What is true is that the Catholic Church was usually able to correct the heresies. Islam is the obvious exception before 1500, Protestantism after.
Protestantism is heresy. It is deficient, and exists only because men wish to create their own Personal Jesus based upon their interpretations of Holy Scripture. It is born of the ego, and is not sufficient in any possible way.
@drdst17 Ah, yes indeed. Though, if we Catholics did a better job living out our faith and being able to explain the teachings of the Church as well as the Biblical basis for her authority. I converted to Catholicism last year, after being very anti-Catholic prior to then.
@megaead69 Welcome aboard! I came in just 8 years ago, myself. :-)
And yes, I wouldn't be here now if not for encountering a number of Catholics who were knowledgeable about our faith and were able to point me to further reading as well as answer questions themselves.
I am not familiar with the original context of this quotation. Perhaps it would make more sense in that context. But it seems to me that Chesterton is simply hectoring with rhetorical questions. Let me counter likewise: why should it be supposed that all the scrolls and statues etc. are all entirely bosh, or all entirely NOT bosh? Why should we suppose it impossible that one scroll is more true than the others? To what scroll, by the way, is he referring in particular?
@roxykattx It is a sort of metaphor for clinging to the holy scriptures, or the Bible (the scroll) as the only source of truth, while rejecting every other aspect of the Christian belief system that existed when those scriptures were recognized as the word of God.
@roxykattx Because, how can an outsider of the "cult" understand the context of any of it, least of all enough to determine what is "bosh" and what scrolls are more "true" than others? The Catholic Church existed for 1500 years before people decided to pick and choose which parts of Christianity they wanted to adhere to or believe in. That's a lot of contextual understanding of Christ and his message being lost.
@martkra I don't see why a person cannot choose what parts of Christianity to believe in. Granted, one should do so in an informed, rather than an ignorant fashion. But consider that even within the history of Roman Catholicism there has hardly been absolute uniformity. Also, though insiders of a particular tradition may have distinct advantages in understanding that tradition, they have disadvantages too. And I balk at the idea that only an insider can be a critic.
@roxykattx "I don't see why a person cannot choose what parts of Christianity to believe in." What "parts" would you consider optional? Christianity is a system of beliefs that all support one another. Leave something out and you've compromised the entire system. Or maybe you really mean that some of the moral beliefs should be optional. God is a Trinity? Sure. Divorce and re-marriage? Oh, that was fine for medieval times, not today. I don't think almighty God would agree.
That is so perfect. A perfect image. The Scriptures were simply part of the patrimony of the Church. They have been preserved from the age of the apostles every bit as much as the candles & the cult of the saints & the hierarchy of bishops, priests, & deacons. THIS is why most of the old Prot. denominations have gone on to reject the scriptures as well. Christ's scriptures are as much an organic part of the living structure of His body the Church, to severe it from his body's an attack on Him.
I like Chesterton very much & I am a thoroughly convinced Catholic, but here Chesterton has a very lame argument. If I take a a diamond & toss into a pile of mud, it gets covered in mud & it's beauty is obscured. Underneath the mud it is still the pure diamond. One just needs to take from the mud & wash it off. Of course that presents a false notion of how we came to have the scriptures, no one ever just found the scriptures as if they were buried in the woods on a golden book.
VictorLepanto 4 weeks ago
@VictorLepanto I think it only works if you keep the metaphor in the realm of foreign religion. It'd be like a group said that the Book of Mormon was the only source of divine truth, but Joseph Smith and all other Mormons taught lies.
BaronGrackle 3 weeks ago
When I first read this quote as a Protestant, I didn't understand it at all because I'd never heard the point that we have the Bible on the authority of the Catholic Church (or else on no authority at all). Chesterton assumed a lot of knowledge in his audience; people aren't so educated in religious matters these days. Now that I'm Catholic I appreciate him much better. :)
It is weird hearing this quote read by the "Sexy Grandpa Time" guy of the Geico commericals...
Flobbyoiboyz 2 months ago
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It is not true that before the Protestant Revolt nobody tried to pick and choose which parts of Christianity they wanted to adhere to or believe in. See "The Great Heresies" by Belloc for a quick overview. You can easily find it on-line. What is true is that the Catholic Church was usually able to correct the heresies. Islam is the obvious exception before 1500, Protestantism after.
trleith 3 months ago
@keepcompletecontrol Not exactly. :-) The conclusion is: if you trust the Bible, consider also trusting the group of people who compiled the Bible.
BaronGrackle 3 months ago
Protestantism is heresy. It is deficient, and exists only because men wish to create their own Personal Jesus based upon their interpretations of Holy Scripture. It is born of the ego, and is not sufficient in any possible way.
drdst17 4 months ago 5
@drdst17 Ah, yes indeed. Though, if we Catholics did a better job living out our faith and being able to explain the teachings of the Church as well as the Biblical basis for her authority. I converted to Catholicism last year, after being very anti-Catholic prior to then.
megaead69 4 months ago
@megaead69 Welcome aboard! I came in just 8 years ago, myself. :-)
And yes, I wouldn't be here now if not for encountering a number of Catholics who were knowledgeable about our faith and were able to point me to further reading as well as answer questions themselves.
BaronGrackle 4 months ago
I am not familiar with the original context of this quotation. Perhaps it would make more sense in that context. But it seems to me that Chesterton is simply hectoring with rhetorical questions. Let me counter likewise: why should it be supposed that all the scrolls and statues etc. are all entirely bosh, or all entirely NOT bosh? Why should we suppose it impossible that one scroll is more true than the others? To what scroll, by the way, is he referring in particular?
roxykattx 4 months ago
@roxykattx It is a sort of metaphor for clinging to the holy scriptures, or the Bible (the scroll) as the only source of truth, while rejecting every other aspect of the Christian belief system that existed when those scriptures were recognized as the word of God.
BaronGrackle 4 months ago
@BaronGrackle Would this have included what the Quakers later called the "inner light"?
roxykattx 4 months ago
@roxykattx Doubtful. If I'm not mistaken, that has more to do with "God told me himself" than "It has to be in the Bible to be true".
BaronGrackle 4 months ago
@roxykattx Because, how can an outsider of the "cult" understand the context of any of it, least of all enough to determine what is "bosh" and what scrolls are more "true" than others? The Catholic Church existed for 1500 years before people decided to pick and choose which parts of Christianity they wanted to adhere to or believe in. That's a lot of contextual understanding of Christ and his message being lost.
martkra 4 months ago
@martkra I don't see why a person cannot choose what parts of Christianity to believe in. Granted, one should do so in an informed, rather than an ignorant fashion. But consider that even within the history of Roman Catholicism there has hardly been absolute uniformity. Also, though insiders of a particular tradition may have distinct advantages in understanding that tradition, they have disadvantages too. And I balk at the idea that only an insider can be a critic.
roxykattx 4 months ago
@roxykattx "I don't see why a person cannot choose what parts of Christianity to believe in." What "parts" would you consider optional? Christianity is a system of beliefs that all support one another. Leave something out and you've compromised the entire system. Or maybe you really mean that some of the moral beliefs should be optional. God is a Trinity? Sure. Divorce and re-marriage? Oh, that was fine for medieval times, not today. I don't think almighty God would agree.
NYCZ31 4 months ago
That is so perfect. A perfect image. The Scriptures were simply part of the patrimony of the Church. They have been preserved from the age of the apostles every bit as much as the candles & the cult of the saints & the hierarchy of bishops, priests, & deacons. THIS is why most of the old Prot. denominations have gone on to reject the scriptures as well. Christ's scriptures are as much an organic part of the living structure of His body the Church, to severe it from his body's an attack on Him.
VictorLepanto 8 months ago
Mr. Chesterton is now being used to sell auto insurance.
azmendozafamily 11 months ago 3
GK Chesterton lost weight. A lot of weight.
TenderTrap86 1 year ago
@TenderTrap86 I know, right? The man almost looks like Einstein now!
BaronGrackle 1 year ago 5
This charater was on one of the Gieco commercials.
Spillers72 7 months ago
@Spillers72 I bet he didn't know nearly as much about theology in that commercial. ;-)
BaronGrackle 7 months ago