People in general, not just theists, try to separate good and evil messages. Both good and bad messages were spread a millennia ago and good and bad messages are spread today. I don't believe the time, place, or herding animals has any affect on one's knowledge of good and evil. If I trusted someone based on the time they lived, where they lived, and what they herded, I think that would be foolish.
I am a theist, by the way. Feel free to challenge this if you think it needs to be revised.
I have God-given abilities I utilize to make decisions. Netwriter, why do you so vehemently attack theists? Could your time be better spent, oh I don't know, researching the hopeless idea that the universe, so well balanced and governed by absolute laws, could be the result of a random event? How could any DESIGN come into existence without a superior CREATOR? Argue all you want, but you are without excuse for God's presence is so obvious.
@AcousticRedemption I don't attack theists, I ask logical questions about what they believe in hopes of helping them put their superstitions away and not waste this only life we have for sure on bronze age tripe. If you want to know about the universe then go ask goat herders in the middle east. According to old books they know everything about everything, gods, the here after, etc... Who created your Creator? Now run along and pay your video game Chaos Theory. lol
@Netwriter No one created my Creator. You should understand a creator is superior to his creation. I believe He is not governed by our physical laws. To believe this takes faith of course so don't go saying it's a ridiculous idea. I see you did not answer my previous question. If your ideas (who knows what they are) are true, why should anyone take your advice. You are simply a mass of carbon in a cycle correct? If you open your heart and mind you might learn something from the infallible Bible.
@AcousticRedemption If no one made your creator, then no one was required to make the universe and all that has resulted. I believe the universe is governed by physical laws because it is real. It takes faith to believe in ridiculous ideas like talking snakes, invisible gods, magic fruit trees, etc.. I have learned something from the bible, I learned that it is a contradictory book of superstition, mythologies and lies.
@Netwriter That doesn't make any sense. If you believe the law of conservation of matter then you should conclude all we know must have had a beginning. Observe nature as orderly as it is and it is difficult to deny design.
@AcousticRedemption What you ignored from my comment is that it doesn't make any sense to believe in talking snakes, invisible gods and magic fruit trees. For the purpose of this discussion I will pretend that the big bang and evolution are false. Now present your evidence for the creation. Just attacking science does not by default make Creation correct. What evidence do you have? Lets see if it matches up to evidence for other scientific theories like gravity, atomic, or germ theory.
@Netwriter!You know also having an intricate know universe with radioactive elements showing with their half life the radioactive decay over time which means their is a beginning shows that the the universe is totally rationally logical to of created its self. Oh an the hole thing about a biogenesis and that all life must come from other living things psh! Just like the most simple organisms in the world like bacteria which are more complex than a computer came from nothing. All makes sense.
@AngusYoungSG1 Who is claiming that it all came from nothing? I have never heard a single scientist make such a silly claim. It is always creationists propping straw men.
@AcousticRedemption If you believe everything is created by some magic creator, I just wonder how you can believe that creator is perfect and do no mistakes, or not evil? Look at the world, not just in your garden, but all of it.
Mosttly salt water in all directions, much other is to dry, hot or to cold.
We could make a better and safer design.
The evolution make it possible for life forms to survive in the changing environment, it's not the environment that is made for each life form.
@AcousticRedemption The universe is not governed by absolute laws. That was the belief of Newtonian physics, however with the introduction of Einstein's theory of relativity and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle we know that much of the universe is "governed" from entropy or chaos made by energy transfers that can't often be predicted. Chaos Theory helps to explain that the ever expanding nature of matter and the universe and the constant transfer of energy creates a stabilizing effect.
If any theist asked themselves this question honestly, and with it's obvious true intention then they'd not be theists any longer. But, nevertheless, I see excuses and vacillations and goal post moving and lies and deceit below, as usual. It's the 21st Century, could we have some rationality going here please?
Being dodgy and squishy will get you nothing but a coward label. Define your god and I'll show you why it's superstitious bunk. But, you'll never be convinced that whatever magic pixie you subscribe to isn't real no matter what evidence, reason and logic I present you. You're too intellectually dishonest to change your mind with the presentation of evidence or admit you're wrong, or even could be wrong. So, let's go: Trot out your small minded little tin god and show me why it's "rational".
God is "functionally true propositions"? Like what, exactly? Show them to me, quote the bible, quote your god. Present them in a cogent fashion. You're still being squishy, ambiguous, vague, and nonspecific. Be exact, take a stand, show me what you've got and we'll discuss it. Until then you're just another willfully ignorant moron who prefers iron-age superstition written by ignorant goat herders to actual knowledge. Put up or shut up, you uneducated little goblin.
Not functionally true, truth-functionally true. This is as clear as I can make it, I'm using formal logic, the most clear straight forward thing, aka deductive method. If this is ambiguous and vague.. then what isn't? A lot of ad hominem from you, that really shows your education.
Perhaps our conversation would be more interesting if you actually say something instead of putting up nonsense. My advice? learn logic, you're either being logical or not, and of course you are not.
You seem to be saying Netwriter incorrectly thinks that a belief held by a minority of christians is held by the majority. The way if someone was to ask us athiests, why do we believe the world was seeded 100,000 years ago by aliens.
A review of history seems to show that it is not atheists who have this problem. All three abrahamic religions find it justifiable to kill others in mass who believe contrary to their version of Abraham's god. They have created rivers of blood and made cemeteries of civilizations in the name of yahweh, jesus and allah. It continues even today and will continue as long as people value the words of ancient goat herders over science and reason.
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Simple question, simple answer. Yahweh chose to work with specific people, at specific times, in specific ways according to His overall plan and will do so again.
Since you seem to be an expert regarding Yaweh's master plan, please explain why his plan requires the death of 15 million children per year to starvation and over 800 million people in the world must suffer from malnutrition? If you don't know the answer to this question, should we go as a few middle eastern goat herders?
Because of Yahweh's judgement concerning the sins in the world. Every person has sinned. Yahweh will provide for those who repent.
Those who die not understanding Yahweh's requirment to repent and be reconciled, that will be considered in the coming Great Judgment. But for those who have heard it over and over agian but have rejected it, that also will be considered.
Yahweh can be found today, if one seeks Him in the way that He requires - on His terms. But most refuse to do so.
Are you claiming that the millions of children under the age of 2 that die each year of starvation and disease have sinned and deserve to die according to your god? What an evil god you worship BOX5500.
The bible claims god does not want any to perish and since he is supposedly omnipotent, it is his responsibility to make his reality known not his creation's. Is he incapable of making himself known? What's the problem?
All have inherited a sinful nature. Do I believe that Yahweh will send children that die under the age of 2 to hell? NO! They are unable to understand Yahweh's requirments. Again, such things will be considered at the judgment. Therefore my 'god' is not evil or unjust.
Yahweh has provided all the necessary evidence to make His reality known. It depends on if you want to accept it. The greatest evidence being a person's soul.
The problem is people like YOU. Stop worrying about 2 year olds.
So your wonderful god has given us a sinful nature and then damns us for it? He makes us unable to understand his requirements by his own design? What a sick religion and god you believe in.
What proof do you have that we have a soul, or is this what an ancient goat herder told you?
Sorry, but being a person with humanity and empathy for my fellow man, something you seem to lack, I will continue to have concern for 2 year olds dying of starvation and disease.
Mankind caused the sinful nature by their actions. A sinful nature doesn't mean you have to act on it, unless you WANT to. We're told Yahweh will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle.
Everyone found guilty will have a proven understanding of the requirments. 'God' is not sick, YOU are.
We should help starving and diseased children, my point was we cannot help children already dead. You need to address your sins before you die, because you will surely be held accountable.
How can a sinful nature be caused by our actions. Isn't that getting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't a sinful nature be required to do sinful things? By all logic, we are just as your god created us to be. Created just like him, then he damns us for being like him in image and deed.
Your bald assertions about the here after are meaningless lest you can provide even a shred of evidence they are more than just wishful thinking on your part. Time to grow up and put away childish things.
Oh but we do understand as most of us skeptics were once as deluded as you are now, when we were theists, before we found our way out of the bronze age. You can't defend what you believe with reason, logic and evidence. Every assertion you have put forth has been crush by reason and logic. You have painted yourself into a corner by your own words. Now in desperation you must claim it is all beyond our understanding. It is all magic and we just don't get it. You've been pwned.
Yeah if a bomb explodes it's the bomb's fault for exploding, it's not the fault of the one that made it. That's the kind of reasoning theists use to justify sin... i guess if i planted a bomb in your house i could come clean off it eh? After all it's not my fault for making the bomb to explode... the bomb exploded by its own fault. Silly bomb exploded.
Life is not found in any of the same elements in which the body is comprised of outside of the body regardless of their combinations.
Despite great advancements in science, scientists have not been able to create life from non-living materials.
And personally, the idea that chemicals have evolved into self aware, walking, talking, highly sophisticated beings that rule the earth relentlessly destroy the earth and each other does not seem logical to me.
What a load of crap. You have not been able to logically respond to a single point made here by myself of Brad, so here you come with the theist's standard "red herring" spiritual dodge. How embarrassing for you.
Thanks for the excellent demonstration. First rate "snake oil" salesmanship. I bet you learned all about this spiritual world from a book containing the ramblings of ancient goat herders, didn't ya?
It is clear you cannot accept a spiritual component as the reason for life therefore you do not agree. Thus, I see no point in continuing.
It will all become quite clear, at the appointed time, when prophecied end time events start occuring. Watch for a massive U.S. navy blockade South of Iran sometime over the next 18 months. This will spark the next World War leading to catastrophic nuclear destruction.
Christians have been predicting the end times for near 1900 years. Jesus said he would return before all those standing listening tasted death. He was a false prophet and every christian since, including you have been wrong. It is so sad that christian folk just get giddy about the destruction of the world. Lucky for the rest of us, your death cult is just a silly bronze age superstition. Since you are unable to defend your cult and can only spout bald assertions, you are done here.
Why not? God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he? LOL
Anyway, there was some success measured, just look up Wikipedia under "abiogenesis", but of course they didn't have few million years.
And if everything it would turn out to be untrue, life on Earth still can be the work of aliens, an experiment or whatever, why stating what you don't know?
I know you are incapable of thought, or any other rational process for that matter, but what you DO need to realize is that you sound like a total maniac right now, and I feel pity for anyone and everyone in your circle of influence.
There is also no evidence for Jesus' existance at all. Infact, nowhere in History was his existance, any of his magic antics, or anything even related to him recorded. The best evidence of his existance was one historian who wrote of 'the Christ', meaning the Annointed one.
Moving on, you're now saying that to understand God and Jesus, and all the preaching, I must be of 30 years old? You condemn for me not believing, then say i'm not yet able to believe.
Shows what you know. High school history class didn't teach you these things therefore you are unaware. At your age you cannot be a history expert. I strongly suggest you take the time, and lots of it, to look into the matter and check out BOTH sides of the story.
I was saying you are too young.I was your age once. The reality is you don't know enough about life in general to even begin these arguments. All you know is your hero has changed from batman to Charles Darwin.
How about a Bachelor's degree with a minor in religion? Yep, i've taken more religion classes/done fieldwork and personal study than you can imagine.
Secondly, you provided no answer to my claim, you commited a straw man concession. Lastly, since when does religious inquiry have an age limit of 20 or more? Your logic is astounding (or lack thereof) and your assumptiveness is lacking in fact.
Isn't it amazing Brad, that BOX5500 was only able to make a string of bald assertions, but wasn't able to counter even a single logical rebuttal that we propped in response to them? A person capable of logical thought might learn from the butt kicking he received and begin questioning his superstition, but from experience I know they don't. No doubt he is somewhere else, on another video, making the same bald assertions he made here, none the wiser.
What you say is true, he will never go rethink his arguing strategies or inquiries, just spam the same nonsense in a different video's comment section.
A cogent argument. Christians don't really believe their religious rationalisations. And by the tone of some of the comments. it seems they don't really like having this pointed out to them.
Christians, put your money where your mouth is, next time you're sick, go to your church. And eschew the evils of modern science embodied in today's hospitals. Obviously the truth can only be divined through studying these incoherent ramblings written on stretched animal skins thousands of years ago.
It seems the thesis of this video went right over your head tmesist. It also appears my sarcasm hasn't helped bring you back on track, and for this I apologize. Carry on with your pedantic tangent.
@Netwriter .. Excellent point Netwriter, this is an argument i hadn't heard before. Christians cant seem to get it in to thier heads that people 2,000 years ago could only percieve things around them with the knowledge they had. The vast majority were illiterate, .. word of mouth was a very powerful media. If someone swore blind they witnessed a miracle, i can totally see how it would be seen as fact.
Excellent vid 6 stars.. the last one is invisible.. but i swear its there!!
Your video are argument is a kindergarten one. The way you pose the question contains bigotry and presupposes scientific reasoning is wrong.
When this is pointed out to you, you cry, "MUMMY MUMMY! he won't say the answer I'm telling him to say."
Your whole post is a feeble attempt to elicit morons to defend a defenless position so you can feel your dick and say "Yup I won an intellectual level of a 5 year debate, I must have the mind if a 6 or 7 year old then."
My question is a simple one. Why do theists rely on, even bet their mortal soul on, the knowledge and enlightenment of desert goat herders of two milenia ago, but not the goat herders of today?
You seem to be doing double back flips to keep from answering this question. Why is it so uncomfortable and so unanswerable for you?
Just keep attacking me if you can't deal with what this question reveals about your theism. I am a big boy and can take it. Carry on with your whining.
Not only did a find a logical answer from you, but in condemning Netwriter for asking a quesiton that you are incapable of answering, you have proven yourself as the idiot that you claim Netwriter is. Leave with your tail tucked between your legs, while you still have a tad bit of respect left.
Like you Brad, I have read every comment posted by tmesist and I have yet to find one that makes any sense at all or addresses the simple question asked by the video. This person seems to have either missed the point of my question, or the question itself caused some sort of short circuit in his brain. Hopefully he will go back and watch the video again and then be able to compose a rational and reasoned response to the actual question asked.
Secondly and totally unrelatedly being a socialist I am politically attacking him for his right wing views and condescension to people he perceives as second rate to him.
Anyone who holds themselves suprerior to another human being in my experience is patently inferior.
I agree the Goat herders ideas it will most likely be nonsense. But for it to be true science the scientist cannot show this bias and must detach himself from this and examine the evidence based purely on the merit of the evidence or the results will be worthless.
Yes, it is a shame tmesist. Where are the goat herders of the bronze age that knew not just about goat herding but also everything about the nature, laws and wants of the invisible creator of the universe. Today they seem to know nothing about cosmology, biology, angels, demons, heaven, hell, and the here after like the all knowing goat herders of yesteryear. It is a sad thing in deed.
Where are the scientists of the Bronze Age that understood Big Bang, Evolution, Medical Science?
You seem to have no concept that knowledge is built up over time through rational processes, through unbiased consideration of facts based purely on their own merit.
@tmesist: I think you misunderstood what Netwriter said. He was saying that if modern day goat herders are do not know everything about everything as depicited in the bible, what are the chances that goat herders of yesterday anymore informed that the modern day equivilant? His argument is on the basis that knowledge is built up over time.
Where are the modern goat herders that understand the big bang, evolution, and medical science? You seem to believe that knowledge builds over time AND homogeneously across a species. In other words, that all of a species becomes endowed with identical knowledge as if it were a product of evolution. Wouldn't that be great! Point: if you were satisfied with the knowledge passed on by a goat herder 2000+ yrs ago, why wouldn't you be satisfied with advice from a goat herder now?
2000+ years ago Aristostle said there were 4 elements. I could apply the same argument. If you were satisfied witht eh argument 2000 years ago, why not be satisfied with it now.
There's a very simple answer to this. Since then our knowledge has improved and the best of our knowledge gives us a completely different picture. We now accept this picture which will probably change and improve with time.
Quite. We do not still place our faith in Aristotle's hypothesis. Why would we continue to place our faith in a goat herder? Now, if a philosopher came to me and hypothesized that even subatomic particles are not indivisible, I would doubt him or her if he or she were not also a physicist.
If you were conducting an experiment you would do it identically for all the subject material, you wouldn't let personal opinion in and bias the experiment against one of the pieces of material.
Netwriter is doing that, he saying the Goat herders words are worth less and in any intellectual investigation we should give them less value.
I am saying we should let an unbiased investigation prove they are nonsense not prejudge them to be.
I am all for the scientific method tmesist, I am apposed to folks valuing the words of ancient goat herders over science and reason. How you got what you did from this video and my comments is beyond my ability to comprehend. Do you believe ancient goat herders knew more about the creation of the cosmos, the earth, life and invisible gods than do today's scientists? Clear this up for me.
From my post it should be easy to work out, of course I don't, but I'd still listen to someone who it true and if they thought they could put up a case would hear it and give it as unbias fair consideration as I could.
Now answer me, do you believe in considering all arguments unbiasedly with equal merit, then judging the weaker ones wrong after informed debate?
I will answer your question once you have answered the question posed in the video. Why don't you, as a theist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?
You seem not to be able to grasp the asnwer when it give it to you straight try it this way instead.
Why don't you, as an atheist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?
Can you answer that question? Is there a problem with it? What's that problem?
Do you have any concept of the point of this video? The bible was written by goat herders 2000 years ago so as a christian you believe they have the answers to the universe. Yet not todays goat herders. Netwriter does not believe either has the answers so he has the same faith in both which is none.
as a christian you believe the words of the bible, hence since the bible was written by 1st century goat herders or the equivalent the statement is proven.
"Why don't you, as an atheist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?" - tmesist
I do give the same weight to goat herders of all eras. They are a good source for information about goat herding but I would not rely on their knowledge about cosmology, biology, the here after, or the nature, laws and wants of invisible gods. There is no problem, I am consistent.
So how precisely does the position you stated differ from.
I would not prejudge the goat herders, would listen to what they said, unbiased and most likely dismiss their ideas unless they could come up with any better than current science.
Do you believe the bible? Is the information there superior to modern science in regard, the cause and treatment of disease, how the universe came about, how the earth and life upon it came about, the age of the universe, the age of the earth? If this information provided by ancient goat herders, contained in the bible, is faulty, isn't it logical to discard their other claims about a god, heaven, hell, angels, demons and other superstitious notions? If not why not?
The bible was not "written" as a book. The bible is a compilation of different documents that were gathered from a larger grouping of documents. The Roman Emperor Constantine commissioned the creation of the bible as a means of consolidating his power over an increasingly fractious empire that was in danger of disintegrating. The council of clerics commissioned to create the bible cherry picked the documents to suit Constantine's requirements. If you follow the bible, learn its history.
I am unqualifed to answer your question. I am neither a jew, muslim or christian. I think asking the man that lives a simple life outside the trappings of the status quo is a good idea. However, there is know profit in truth, one cannot lie when telling the truth, simplicity might cause dumbfoundedness in the conventional wisdom and create in it fear, anxiety, murder, hatred and bigotry. Wars might spring up.... Wait a minute!
I am open minded to hear what anyone, any colour, sex, sexual orientation, social status has to say about anything including questions of morality, creation, meaning of life, from now or the past.
Whether I agree will be the result of careful consideration in light of the culture we live in today.
Now when you have a question about cosmology or biology why don't you go and find an old man sitting in square of a Greek village and ask him?
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You have a bourgeois attittude to goat herders. You rather condescendingly insinuate a humble person incapable of intelligent rational thought despite numerous examples throughout human history people from humble backgrounds creating great works of science, literature and art.
Perhaps these days you look down at your nose at people from housing estates and think yuck those dirty ignorant lower class people, shouldn't even be allowed to vote.
Me? It is theists who have this attitude, not me. They ignore goat herders of today but worship every word of the goat herders of a couple thousand years ago. My position on goat herder is consistent, they know how to herd goats, but when I want to know about the speciation of life I go to a biologist, or about the cosmos, I go to a cosmologist. If I want to know about goat herding I will go ask a goat herder. What do you ask goat herders about tmesist, electronic circuitry?
My suggestion is get out of that academic hidy hole go into less developed parts of the world, work out in small rural villages they get their electricity from village generators and do their own mechanical and electrical repairs.
While I have not had a conversation about electronics with a tribal person it is only because any discussion I had with the ones I have met, my knowledge would probably fall too short of theirs.
Tmeist, less than 20% of Africa has access to electricity, and those that do are monitored almost entirely by trained electricians. The few places where untrained individuals produce electricity usually involves smart people READING SCIENCE BOOKS WRITTEN BY PROFESSIONALS and putting together their own generators.
At no point in this are ignorant goat herders from the Middle East producing miraculous revelations about the nature of the universe.
A very simplistic and condescending view of the theist... As traditions are passed down the beliefs get rooted deeper into the culture. Kinship plays a very large role in the rearing of children. Kids are succeptible to accepting information unquestioningly. Certain things can stick very hard in some individuals. Being religious doesn't make people retarded, it just blockades certain thought processes due to fear of change/the unknown/ consequences. Kept it general due to lack of space to type
Then the logical response to illogical traditions, is to stop their transmission? I disagree. It isn't the passage of the idea that promotes it through the generations, it is the special dispensation that our culture grants toward religion that allows its entrenchment without reason.
They share certain irrationalities and they are both transmuted through kinship. Nationalism as we know it developed under the rulership of napoleon in France when he introduced mandatory primary education for all youngsters in the country.
I agree. Racism as well. I think religion is slightly different. The entire subject is (pardon the expression), sacrosanct. If, for instance, there was an ultra nationalistic Frenchman and an ultra nationalistic German classmate in a public school, we would not endeavor to celebrate their respective nationalistic irrationalities. In contrast, we are currently in the season of Christma-Hanu-Rama-Ka-Dona-Kwanzaa (Roy Zimmerman). The other irrationalities just don't quite get the same respect.
Far be it from me to defend the Theists but they are bound to reply that their Holy books are not the words of goatherders (which we all know they are) but the direct word of god.
I don't think theist are stupid...My opinion is that they just have been thought something at a young age and it brings them comfort. I'm in college and I know many smart theist...Granted most are not Biology majors(they tend to avoid that path because it forces them to learn an understand evolution) and yes the atheist classmate % went way up after leaving high school. I know many theist that do well in "neutral" paths like Mathematics and Physics.
LOL...I'm on break as a biology major. One of my classmates in an unrelated class is a math major. She is extremely bright, and a creationist. Go figure. As you say, she avoids science like the plague. I hope someday that her encounters in physics bring her around.
I have asked the exact same question of some of the same religionists in the past. They always trot out some more of the same tired redundant Abrahamic holey-babble as always and continue on their delusional way...confident that they "know" what the truth is. How sad...
well I am pretty sure theists will say its because they believe that the goat herders received revelations from their god. Isn't that what the bible is supposed to be? (Just sayin)
Because she represents the coming of an Idiocracy. A society where working hard and actually being good at what you do goes unrewarded, whilst just being likable is reason enough to give one the highest office in the land. Say what you will about Bush, he at least displayed an interest in politics. Palin has repeatedly demonstrated not only remarkable little knowledge of the political sphere, but almost no interest either. This is not someone I want making policy for Americans.
It's a nice soundbite, but if you believe the Bible the book was actually written by authors ranging from Moses to the kings of Israel, and later by historians and apostles, and if you believe the historians the Bible was written by priests, story-tellers, and various anonymous authors.
These people were likely as ignorant of the nature of the universe as the modern Afghan goat-herder, if not more so, but they probably weren't actually goat-herders.
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That was kinda racist. People are people no matter where they live. But some are less educated ofcourse, Wisdom comes in many ways, not just through technology or books. God speaks thru and to people all over the world, not just in our modern times. But God chose to make his main mark 2 thousand yrs ago, not now.
Clarity, the question isn't what do you believe, it's why you believe it. Why do you think the word of individuals who lived 2k years ago + is more worthwhile than the word of individuals in similar conditions living today? If a priest in Afghan today started claiming that God spoke to him and revealed commandments we should follow, and then told you crazy-ass things like 'shrimp are an abomination' would you take him seriously?
Hooya---well i dont think the afghans are better off today, they are more desolate and they don't believe in the bible, they are muslims. But really it makes no difference where they live or what time era, but it is God who chooses to speak to or dwell with people. God choose for Christ to come two thousand yrs ago, not 6 thousand, not now, why? Idk....God chooses to do everything when and how he wants, not just that. Btw, shrimp is created to be a scavenger, not meant to b edible.
Clarity, I specifically said that I'm asking you WHY YOU BELIEVE, not WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Can you even tell the difference? You say God chose to reveal himself 2k years ago, I'm asking you why you think that is true. Why do you put stock in the stories of that age over the stories of individuals today?
And what do you mean, shrimp wasn't meant to be edible? If God wanted it to not be edible, he apparently messed up, because it is edible.
hooya- i did answer, I said I don't know :) I also said God does what he wants, the way he wants, and when he wants concerning EVERYTHING in life, not just the writing of the bible.
Clarity, either you still don't understand my question, or you're insane. I asked you 'why do you believe'. Are you telling me that you DON'T KNOW why you believe the Bible is true? How can you not know why you believe what you believe?
And clarity, more technologically advanced civilizations have access to more knowledge, simply as a matter of course. Net's discrimination is logically sound.
Hooya-I thought your question was "why do you believe God did what he did thousands of yrs ago and not so much now?' That is what I was trying to answer, as for the qestion of why I believe the bible is true? That answer is because the HolySpirit has revealed it as truth to me, and I personally hold no human accountable for NOT believing, I beleive it is Gods job to reveal himself to you. to be cont:...
Hooya I read your comments and answered accordingly. As for the Holy Spirit...you've heard of "the minds eye"?? Well I call it "my minds ear". Not physical adio, but in my soul and mind...and feelings deep within. Answers to questions in prayer too. Convictions, rebukes, and washing me over with love.
If you read my comments, why did you repeatedly fail to answer my question of 'why do you believe?'
So the 'holy spirit' speaks to you in feelings? My next question should be predictable; how do you know these feelings are real, and not just a placebo effect?
My point with the snake thing wasn't that God was cruel, but that God punished people simply for expressing doubt--an act fundamentally incompatible with the freedom of expression values you ascribe to him.
that is one little point in why i refruse to believe in god, there is a battle between the realism of god, the answer is simple who cares if god is real or not because it simply is impossible to prove whats not there, but seriously come on think about it lol, back to my point, my point is if god exists and you believe in the bible then god is an evil hypocritacl maniacal sinister being who deserves to be in hell himself
God sometimes punishes for our sins, sometimes he sets us up to challenge us and test us and make us stronger souls. God can punish us for doubt, but at the same time he knows it is part of our journey. As for questioning my reality with God, well I can question all realities too....
You say God sometimes punishes us for sins, but according to Numbers God sent the serpents on the people for questioning Moses. Are you saying that simply questioning Moses was a sin? Once again I want to point out that that is antithetical to the concept of freedom of expression.
And again, why does God want us to be 'stronger souls'? Strength is only a feature that's valuable in adversity. You're saying God gave us tough situations so we could learn to survive in tough situations?
In fact, that is *exactly* what is happening. I worship the devil and he has told me during prayer that he has fooled most of the world into believing in Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Shiva, and others as a test (and because he rolls that way)!
Does Clarity *know* that this isn't true? If so, how? From The Book she reads (that my Lord Satan wrote to deceive him)?
Ancient Atheist, in the end it is not what I know, but what IS the truth. And this holds true for all things in life, we need for a day to come where we can see and know and understand all things...I believe in a God that will do this for us.
AncientAtheist: Yes I understand what you are saying, and that can be used against all things in life, not just spiritual beliefs. We need God himself to show both of us, all of mankind the truth in a way we all can be sure.
Of course, the claim that some magic being is fooling you is possibly true for ANYTHING, and isn't particularly worthy of consideration. If we accept that claim as plausible, then all epistemology collapses.
However, the possibility that you're suffering from a placebo effect is more subtle. Placebos can't make you see or hear things (not unless you're already unstable). I suppose what I'm trying to say is that seeing is believing, but feeling is a rather dubious method of determining truth.
WarmWeatherguy: You are right, ultimately we must trust that God is a good God and will see us through in the end. If God does not save us from ourselves, sins, and the devil....we are doomed. So it's not about me knowing when the devil tricks me, it's about needed God to make it all good in the end. That is our only hope.
Only if you are not a christian or muslim. The words of these gods point to their being totally immoral and vile. Only a deist can have hope for a "good" god.
216trix--if he came now, the critics would say why not sooner God??? Yes humans are VERY resentful toward God for this mess we are in, but God says he will make it all good in the end, btw I believe God will save all mankind, not just some.
+if he came now, the critics would say why not sooner God??+
You think with great clarity. Now the question is why did Jesus not come when Adam and Eve ate the apple? So all humanity had the chance of salvation. God once again divinely plans stupidity.
adolf: God wants us to go through....for lack of a better term....hell first. It's part of the plan. God said "let us make man in our image" and I don't think he is yet completed his creation, the bible says we are a complete creation in Christ Jesus. So we can't stop the artist in the middle of his work and judge him....let him finish the work he began in us first...then we can judge...the bible predicts that we will all praise God on that day.
Why make flawed people then force them to compete, for resources? Or force them to find god, with no evidence? And to find the right god from the thousands that have been proposed?
Good point! I never heard it put before! ;)
Oh, check out my vids when you get a minute!
Doubter5 5 months ago
@Doubter5
Demonstrate that you understand his point...
Re-construct his reasoning and logically conclude the "point" you reference...
PrinceWalter 5 months ago
@Doubter5 Or, if you prefer...
Without any computer or calculator, or with an abacus only, track the movement of the stars as accurately as the ancients did...
PrinceWalter 5 months ago
It's like this: basically, typical goatherders don't come back to life after being dead about three days...
AyrYntake 7 months ago
People in general, not just theists, try to separate good and evil messages. Both good and bad messages were spread a millennia ago and good and bad messages are spread today. I don't believe the time, place, or herding animals has any affect on one's knowledge of good and evil. If I trusted someone based on the time they lived, where they lived, and what they herded, I think that would be foolish.
I am a theist, by the way. Feel free to challenge this if you think it needs to be revised.
mowingthefrontlawn 11 months ago
I have God-given abilities I utilize to make decisions. Netwriter, why do you so vehemently attack theists? Could your time be better spent, oh I don't know, researching the hopeless idea that the universe, so well balanced and governed by absolute laws, could be the result of a random event? How could any DESIGN come into existence without a superior CREATOR? Argue all you want, but you are without excuse for God's presence is so obvious.
AcousticRedemption 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption I don't attack theists, I ask logical questions about what they believe in hopes of helping them put their superstitions away and not waste this only life we have for sure on bronze age tripe. If you want to know about the universe then go ask goat herders in the middle east. According to old books they know everything about everything, gods, the here after, etc... Who created your Creator? Now run along and pay your video game Chaos Theory. lol
Netwriter 1 year ago 6
@Netwriter No one created my Creator. You should understand a creator is superior to his creation. I believe He is not governed by our physical laws. To believe this takes faith of course so don't go saying it's a ridiculous idea. I see you did not answer my previous question. If your ideas (who knows what they are) are true, why should anyone take your advice. You are simply a mass of carbon in a cycle correct? If you open your heart and mind you might learn something from the infallible Bible.
AcousticRedemption 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption If no one made your creator, then no one was required to make the universe and all that has resulted. I believe the universe is governed by physical laws because it is real. It takes faith to believe in ridiculous ideas like talking snakes, invisible gods, magic fruit trees, etc.. I have learned something from the bible, I learned that it is a contradictory book of superstition, mythologies and lies.
Netwriter 1 year ago 7
@Netwriter That doesn't make any sense. If you believe the law of conservation of matter then you should conclude all we know must have had a beginning. Observe nature as orderly as it is and it is difficult to deny design.
AcousticRedemption 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption What you ignored from my comment is that it doesn't make any sense to believe in talking snakes, invisible gods and magic fruit trees. For the purpose of this discussion I will pretend that the big bang and evolution are false. Now present your evidence for the creation. Just attacking science does not by default make Creation correct. What evidence do you have? Lets see if it matches up to evidence for other scientific theories like gravity, atomic, or germ theory.
Netwriter 1 year ago 5
@Netwriter!You know also having an intricate know universe with radioactive elements showing with their half life the radioactive decay over time which means their is a beginning shows that the the universe is totally rationally logical to of created its self. Oh an the hole thing about a biogenesis and that all life must come from other living things psh! Just like the most simple organisms in the world like bacteria which are more complex than a computer came from nothing. All makes sense.
AngusYoungSG1 7 months ago
@AngusYoungSG1 Who is claiming that it all came from nothing? I have never heard a single scientist make such a silly claim. It is always creationists propping straw men.
Netwriter 7 months ago
@AcousticRedemption If you believe everything is created by some magic creator, I just wonder how you can believe that creator is perfect and do no mistakes, or not evil? Look at the world, not just in your garden, but all of it.
Mosttly salt water in all directions, much other is to dry, hot or to cold.
We could make a better and safer design.
The evolution make it possible for life forms to survive in the changing environment, it's not the environment that is made for each life form.
ytbabbler 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption ...your god guy screwed up
The pet shop told me you cant get a talking snake
So he sold me a parrot,he talks fine
But only what I teach him..............
swinewarrior 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption The universe is not governed by absolute laws. That was the belief of Newtonian physics, however with the introduction of Einstein's theory of relativity and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle we know that much of the universe is "governed" from entropy or chaos made by energy transfers that can't often be predicted. Chaos Theory helps to explain that the ever expanding nature of matter and the universe and the constant transfer of energy creates a stabilizing effect.
mrmil100 1 year ago
@AcousticRedemption marshmallows were made by an accident. lol one sentence just pwned you.
101796bg 11 months ago
@AcousticRedemption Amen!
AngusYoungSG1 7 months ago
Human beings are lazy.
It takes too much effort and work to grasp how we ended up here as the creatures we are.
It's so much easier to blame it all on a magical ooka pookah in the sky. Then they can just wait to die so they can truly begin living.
AvatarOfAvatar 2 years ago 4
If any theist asked themselves this question honestly, and with it's obvious true intention then they'd not be theists any longer. But, nevertheless, I see excuses and vacillations and goal post moving and lies and deceit below, as usual. It's the 21st Century, could we have some rationality going here please?
LordSlag 2 years ago
Why wouldn't they be theist any more?
We'll have 'rationality', only if you do.
mirabileamavi 2 years ago
Ok, then do you believe that you can alter real world events by addressing the creator of the entire universe telepathically?
Let me put that another way: Do you pray?
LordSlag 2 years ago 2
No and no. What else?
mirabileamavi 2 years ago
Being dodgy and squishy will get you nothing but a coward label. Define your god and I'll show you why it's superstitious bunk. But, you'll never be convinced that whatever magic pixie you subscribe to isn't real no matter what evidence, reason and logic I present you. You're too intellectually dishonest to change your mind with the presentation of evidence or admit you're wrong, or even could be wrong. So, let's go: Trot out your small minded little tin god and show me why it's "rational".
LordSlag 2 years ago
oh wow why so angry.
God: truth-functionally true propositions.
Go ahead and debunk that?
mirabileamavi 2 years ago
God is "functionally true propositions"? Like what, exactly? Show them to me, quote the bible, quote your god. Present them in a cogent fashion. You're still being squishy, ambiguous, vague, and nonspecific. Be exact, take a stand, show me what you've got and we'll discuss it. Until then you're just another willfully ignorant moron who prefers iron-age superstition written by ignorant goat herders to actual knowledge. Put up or shut up, you uneducated little goblin.
LordSlag 2 years ago
Not functionally true, truth-functionally true. This is as clear as I can make it, I'm using formal logic, the most clear straight forward thing, aka deductive method. If this is ambiguous and vague.. then what isn't? A lot of ad hominem from you, that really shows your education.
Perhaps our conversation would be more interesting if you actually say something instead of putting up nonsense. My advice? learn logic, you're either being logical or not, and of course you are not.
mirabileamavi 2 years ago
lol i love taking the underdog's position, lots of thumbs down but no reply? =/
agreesive atheists hurt my nuts, and to be clear, i don't believe in any god, haven't even read the entire bible, maybe the first chapter.
@LordSlag i guess thats the end of our little chat, be nicer next time if you can't back your position ;)
mirabileamavi 2 years ago
Great point!
However, beware of moronic replies like 'those' goat herders were inspired by God :P
kakamana1000 2 years ago
I love this video. Simple and right to the point of the matter...
Christianity is based on idiotic myths with ancient moral.
God is Santa Claus for adults.
ThinkingBetter 2 years ago
@tmesist
You seem to be saying Netwriter incorrectly thinks that a belief held by a minority of christians is held by the majority. The way if someone was to ask us athiests, why do we believe the world was seeded 100,000 years ago by aliens.
Am I correct?
jaocheu 2 years ago
A question for atheists:
Why are you so paranoid that other people dare have a belief which differs from yours?
jamjohn1 2 years ago
A review of history seems to show that it is not atheists who have this problem. All three abrahamic religions find it justifiable to kill others in mass who believe contrary to their version of Abraham's god. They have created rivers of blood and made cemeteries of civilizations in the name of yahweh, jesus and allah. It continues even today and will continue as long as people value the words of ancient goat herders over science and reason.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Damn good point.
KaelHunter 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Simple question, simple answer. Yahweh chose to work with specific people, at specific times, in specific ways according to His overall plan and will do so again.
BOX5500 2 years ago
Since you seem to be an expert regarding Yaweh's master plan, please explain why his plan requires the death of 15 million children per year to starvation and over 800 million people in the world must suffer from malnutrition? If you don't know the answer to this question, should we go as a few middle eastern goat herders?
Netwriter 2 years ago
Because of Yahweh's judgement concerning the sins in the world. Every person has sinned. Yahweh will provide for those who repent.
Those who die not understanding Yahweh's requirment to repent and be reconciled, that will be considered in the coming Great Judgment. But for those who have heard it over and over agian but have rejected it, that also will be considered.
Yahweh can be found today, if one seeks Him in the way that He requires - on His terms. But most refuse to do so.
BOX5500 2 years ago
Are you claiming that the millions of children under the age of 2 that die each year of starvation and disease have sinned and deserve to die according to your god? What an evil god you worship BOX5500.
The bible claims god does not want any to perish and since he is supposedly omnipotent, it is his responsibility to make his reality known not his creation's. Is he incapable of making himself known? What's the problem?
Netwriter 2 years ago
All have inherited a sinful nature. Do I believe that Yahweh will send children that die under the age of 2 to hell? NO! They are unable to understand Yahweh's requirments. Again, such things will be considered at the judgment. Therefore my 'god' is not evil or unjust.
Yahweh has provided all the necessary evidence to make His reality known. It depends on if you want to accept it. The greatest evidence being a person's soul.
The problem is people like YOU. Stop worrying about 2 year olds.
BOX5500 2 years ago
So your wonderful god has given us a sinful nature and then damns us for it? He makes us unable to understand his requirements by his own design? What a sick religion and god you believe in.
What proof do you have that we have a soul, or is this what an ancient goat herder told you?
Sorry, but being a person with humanity and empathy for my fellow man, something you seem to lack, I will continue to have concern for 2 year olds dying of starvation and disease.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Mankind caused the sinful nature by their actions. A sinful nature doesn't mean you have to act on it, unless you WANT to. We're told Yahweh will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle.
Everyone found guilty will have a proven understanding of the requirments. 'God' is not sick, YOU are.
We should help starving and diseased children, my point was we cannot help children already dead. You need to address your sins before you die, because you will surely be held accountable.
BOX5500 2 years ago
How can a sinful nature be caused by our actions. Isn't that getting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't a sinful nature be required to do sinful things? By all logic, we are just as your god created us to be. Created just like him, then he damns us for being like him in image and deed.
Your bald assertions about the here after are meaningless lest you can provide even a shred of evidence they are more than just wishful thinking on your part. Time to grow up and put away childish things.
Netwriter 2 years ago
You can't possibly even begin to understand.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
You focus too much only on the physical.
BOX5500 2 years ago
Oh but we do understand as most of us skeptics were once as deluded as you are now, when we were theists, before we found our way out of the bronze age. You can't defend what you believe with reason, logic and evidence. Every assertion you have put forth has been crush by reason and logic. You have painted yourself into a corner by your own words. Now in desperation you must claim it is all beyond our understanding. It is all magic and we just don't get it. You've been pwned.
Netwriter 2 years ago
@Box5500
Yeah if a bomb explodes it's the bomb's fault for exploding, it's not the fault of the one that made it. That's the kind of reasoning theists use to justify sin... i guess if i planted a bomb in your house i could come clean off it eh? After all it's not my fault for making the bomb to explode... the bomb exploded by its own fault. Silly bomb exploded.
kyagh 2 years ago
Life is not found in any of the same elements in which the body is comprised of outside of the body regardless of their combinations.
Despite great advancements in science, scientists have not been able to create life from non-living materials.
And personally, the idea that chemicals have evolved into self aware, walking, talking, highly sophisticated beings that rule the earth relentlessly destroy the earth and each other does not seem logical to me.
Spiritual meets physical.
BOX5500 2 years ago
A good science education would do you wonders.
Relying on Intelligent Design web sites for your science is like using a sun dial to time a horse race.
-Gali Yonvadisi
Netwriter 2 years ago
I study science - physical matters.
I also study spiritual matters.
They work with each other.
BOX5500 2 years ago
What a load of crap. You have not been able to logically respond to a single point made here by myself of Brad, so here you come with the theist's standard "red herring" spiritual dodge. How embarrassing for you.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Right back at ya Netwriter.
You ask for proof of 'God' who is a spiritual being and you restrict all your answers to a physcial format. Its like you don't want to know.
Your idea of logic, reason and proof work only in the physical. You have little or no undestanding of the spiritual function.
Why bother if you won't look into the spiritual. Physical is WHAT we are and spirtual is WHO we are - how we behave.
BOX5500 2 years ago
Thanks for the excellent demonstration. First rate "snake oil" salesmanship. I bet you learned all about this spiritual world from a book containing the ramblings of ancient goat herders, didn't ya?
Netwriter 2 years ago
It is clear you cannot accept a spiritual component as the reason for life therefore you do not agree. Thus, I see no point in continuing.
It will all become quite clear, at the appointed time, when prophecied end time events start occuring. Watch for a massive U.S. navy blockade South of Iran sometime over the next 18 months. This will spark the next World War leading to catastrophic nuclear destruction.
All thanks to walking chemicals no less.
And to answer your last question: No.
BOX5500 2 years ago
Christians have been predicting the end times for near 1900 years. Jesus said he would return before all those standing listening tasted death. He was a false prophet and every christian since, including you have been wrong. It is so sad that christian folk just get giddy about the destruction of the world. Lucky for the rest of us, your death cult is just a silly bronze age superstition. Since you are unable to defend your cult and can only spout bald assertions, you are done here.
Netwriter 2 years ago
"...does not seem logical to me."
Why not? God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he? LOL
Anyway, there was some success measured, just look up Wikipedia under "abiogenesis", but of course they didn't have few million years.
And if everything it would turn out to be untrue, life on Earth still can be the work of aliens, an experiment or whatever, why stating what you don't know?
By the Bible, sin makes no sense.
IceHammer58 2 years ago
I know you are incapable of thought, or any other rational process for that matter, but what you DO need to realize is that you sound like a total maniac right now, and I feel pity for anyone and everyone in your circle of influence.
Darwin help you.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
Nothing personal, but when you grow up young man, come and talk to me again.
Christ was 30 years old before he began to preach and teach because no one would have taken him seriously before then.
You're barely a man and you really have no clue about anything. I find your comment amusing at best.
BOX5500 2 years ago
There is also no evidence for Jesus' existance at all. Infact, nowhere in History was his existance, any of his magic antics, or anything even related to him recorded. The best evidence of his existance was one historian who wrote of 'the Christ', meaning the Annointed one.
Moving on, you're now saying that to understand God and Jesus, and all the preaching, I must be of 30 years old? You condemn for me not believing, then say i'm not yet able to believe.
Where is the logic here?
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
Shows what you know. High school history class didn't teach you these things therefore you are unaware. At your age you cannot be a history expert. I strongly suggest you take the time, and lots of it, to look into the matter and check out BOTH sides of the story.
I was saying you are too young.I was your age once. The reality is you don't know enough about life in general to even begin these arguments. All you know is your hero has changed from batman to Charles Darwin.
I condemn no one.
BOX5500 2 years ago
@ BOX5500:
How about a Bachelor's degree with a minor in religion? Yep, i've taken more religion classes/done fieldwork and personal study than you can imagine.
Secondly, you provided no answer to my claim, you commited a straw man concession. Lastly, since when does religious inquiry have an age limit of 20 or more? Your logic is astounding (or lack thereof) and your assumptiveness is lacking in fact.
Back to the drawing board with you.
P.S. Yes, im an Atheist minored in Religion.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
Isn't it amazing Brad, that BOX5500 was only able to make a string of bald assertions, but wasn't able to counter even a single logical rebuttal that we propped in response to them? A person capable of logical thought might learn from the butt kicking he received and begin questioning his superstition, but from experience I know they don't. No doubt he is somewhere else, on another video, making the same bald assertions he made here, none the wiser.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Amazing? I think not, more like pathetic.
What you say is true, he will never go rethink his arguing strategies or inquiries, just spam the same nonsense in a different video's comment section.
Disappointing theists.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
A cogent argument. Christians don't really believe their religious rationalisations. And by the tone of some of the comments. it seems they don't really like having this pointed out to them.
Christians, put your money where your mouth is, next time you're sick, go to your church. And eschew the evils of modern science embodied in today's hospitals. Obviously the truth can only be divined through studying these incoherent ramblings written on stretched animal skins thousands of years ago.
VernonKrudlik 2 years ago
I take it you aren't a fan of James Joyce? ;-)
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
All he seems to be able to do in responce to rational argument is make snide remarks about Goat Herders.
tmesist 2 years ago
It seems the thesis of this video went right over your head tmesist. It also appears my sarcasm hasn't helped bring you back on track, and for this I apologize. Carry on with your pedantic tangent.
Netwriter 2 years ago
@Netwriter .. Excellent point Netwriter, this is an argument i hadn't heard before. Christians cant seem to get it in to thier heads that people 2,000 years ago could only percieve things around them with the knowledge they had. The vast majority were illiterate, .. word of mouth was a very powerful media. If someone swore blind they witnessed a miracle, i can totally see how it would be seen as fact.
Excellent vid 6 stars.. the last one is invisible.. but i swear its there!!
bonnie43uk 2 years ago
Your video are argument is a kindergarten one. The way you pose the question contains bigotry and presupposes scientific reasoning is wrong.
When this is pointed out to you, you cry, "MUMMY MUMMY! he won't say the answer I'm telling him to say."
Your whole post is a feeble attempt to elicit morons to defend a defenless position so you can feel your dick and say "Yup I won an intellectual level of a 5 year debate, I must have the mind if a 6 or 7 year old then."
tmesist 2 years ago
My question is a simple one. Why do theists rely on, even bet their mortal soul on, the knowledge and enlightenment of desert goat herders of two milenia ago, but not the goat herders of today?
You seem to be doing double back flips to keep from answering this question. Why is it so uncomfortable and so unanswerable for you?
Just keep attacking me if you can't deal with what this question reveals about your theism. I am a big boy and can take it. Carry on with your whining.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Your motive for this vid is idiot bashing.
When someone falls for your bait and makes an irrational statement you will pounce.
Unfortuanately in the premises you make irrational mistakes yourself
You know want to fudge them over, so you can hypocritically go on an attack people for making similar errors.
1) You seem to be doing double backflips to avoid answering any charges levelled at you.
2) I answered your question in my very second post, something else you fudge over
tmesist 2 years ago
Why do you keep commiting an Ad Hominem here?
Not only did a find a logical answer from you, but in condemning Netwriter for asking a quesiton that you are incapable of answering, you have proven yourself as the idiot that you claim Netwriter is. Leave with your tail tucked between your legs, while you still have a tad bit of respect left.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
You accuse Ad Hominem with an Ad Hominem attack and use logic in the same sentence!
If you are capable of answering the question, go ahead, a look forward to the answer.
tmesist 2 years ago
Your criticisms are easily predictable. That makes you a fail, sir.
Please point out the Ad hominem in my comment to you, tmesist.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
Agreed Netwriter, the same is the case of BOX5500
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
Like you Brad, I have read every comment posted by tmesist and I have yet to find one that makes any sense at all or addresses the simple question asked by the video. This person seems to have either missed the point of my question, or the question itself caused some sort of short circuit in his brain. Hopefully he will go back and watch the video again and then be able to compose a rational and reasoned response to the actual question asked.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Secondly and totally unrelatedly being a socialist I am politically attacking him for his right wing views and condescension to people he perceives as second rate to him.
Anyone who holds themselves suprerior to another human being in my experience is patently inferior.
tmesist 2 years ago
I agree the Goat herders ideas it will most likely be nonsense. But for it to be true science the scientist cannot show this bias and must detach himself from this and examine the evidence based purely on the merit of the evidence or the results will be worthless.
tmesist 2 years ago
Thank you for such a reasoned and well explained responce.
I'll try and give you my position. I am arguing on two levels.
1st I am pointing out ideally in science all information would be given to the scientist and it's source not revealed to him.
He would then examine this information totally without bias, presumption, prejudgement and prejudice.
tmesist 2 years ago
**prejudgement and prejudice are identical in meaning**
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
Wow! what a weird debate.
Tmesis representing the ACLU vs Netwriter representing Fox News.]
Seconds out round four.................
jaocheu 2 years ago
By golly, I have a deep, perplexing theo-philosophical question.
I shall try to find some dirt farming goat herders to answer my question.
Thanks, Netwriter!
Turandot29 2 years ago 2
experts for every field no-one able to multitask or become a rounded person knowledgiable in more than one area.
This seems to be more the plot of a futruristic disotpia novel than a viable way to live your life.
tmesist 2 years ago
Yes, it is a shame tmesist. Where are the goat herders of the bronze age that knew not just about goat herding but also everything about the nature, laws and wants of the invisible creator of the universe. Today they seem to know nothing about cosmology, biology, angels, demons, heaven, hell, and the here after like the all knowing goat herders of yesteryear. It is a sad thing in deed.
Netwriter 2 years ago
Where are the scientists of the Bronze Age that understood Big Bang, Evolution, Medical Science?
You seem to have no concept that knowledge is built up over time through rational processes, through unbiased consideration of facts based purely on their own merit.
tmesist 2 years ago
@tmesist: I think you misunderstood what Netwriter said. He was saying that if modern day goat herders are do not know everything about everything as depicited in the bible, what are the chances that goat herders of yesterday anymore informed that the modern day equivilant? His argument is on the basis that knowledge is built up over time.
RosieDesire 2 years ago
Where are the modern goat herders that understand the big bang, evolution, and medical science? You seem to believe that knowledge builds over time AND homogeneously across a species. In other words, that all of a species becomes endowed with identical knowledge as if it were a product of evolution. Wouldn't that be great! Point: if you were satisfied with the knowledge passed on by a goat herder 2000+ yrs ago, why wouldn't you be satisfied with advice from a goat herder now?
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
2000+ years ago Aristostle said there were 4 elements. I could apply the same argument. If you were satisfied witht eh argument 2000 years ago, why not be satisfied with it now.
There's a very simple answer to this. Since then our knowledge has improved and the best of our knowledge gives us a completely different picture. We now accept this picture which will probably change and improve with time.
tmesist 2 years ago
Quite. We do not still place our faith in Aristotle's hypothesis. Why would we continue to place our faith in a goat herder? Now, if a philosopher came to me and hypothesized that even subatomic particles are not indivisible, I would doubt him or her if he or she were not also a physicist.
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
What I can't undestand is Netwriter and other people in this posts objection to the scientific methods we used to get from Aristotle to the present.
tmesist 2 years ago
I did not understand them to be objecting to scientific inquiry. I don't know if you are sincere or satirical.
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
I read you are studying biology.
If you were conducting an experiment you would do it identically for all the subject material, you wouldn't let personal opinion in and bias the experiment against one of the pieces of material.
Netwriter is doing that, he saying the Goat herders words are worth less and in any intellectual investigation we should give them less value.
I am saying we should let an unbiased investigation prove they are nonsense not prejudge them to be.
tmesist 2 years ago
I am all for the scientific method tmesist, I am apposed to folks valuing the words of ancient goat herders over science and reason. How you got what you did from this video and my comments is beyond my ability to comprehend. Do you believe ancient goat herders knew more about the creation of the cosmos, the earth, life and invisible gods than do today's scientists? Clear this up for me.
Netwriter 2 years ago
From my post it should be easy to work out, of course I don't, but I'd still listen to someone who it true and if they thought they could put up a case would hear it and give it as unbias fair consideration as I could.
Now answer me, do you believe in considering all arguments unbiasedly with equal merit, then judging the weaker ones wrong after informed debate?
tmesist 2 years ago
Certainly, as should everyone else.
AtheistBrad 2 years ago
I will answer your question once you have answered the question posed in the video. Why don't you, as a theist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?
Netwriter 2 years ago
@Netwriter
You seem not to be able to grasp the asnwer when it give it to you straight try it this way instead.
Why don't you, as an atheist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?
Can you answer that question? Is there a problem with it? What's that problem?
tmesist 2 years ago
Do you have any concept of the point of this video? The bible was written by goat herders 2000 years ago so as a christian you believe they have the answers to the universe. Yet not todays goat herders. Netwriter does not believe either has the answers so he has the same faith in both which is none.
izbo10 2 years ago
"The bible was written by goat herders 2000 years ago so as a christian you believe they have the answers to the universe. "
"so as a christian you believe"
Prove those six words.
tmesist 2 years ago
as a christian you believe the words of the bible, hence since the bible was written by 1st century goat herders or the equivalent the statement is proven.
izbo10 2 years ago
"Why don't you, as an atheist, give the same weight to the knowledge and enlightenment of todays goat herders as you do to the goat herders of yesteryear?" - tmesist
I do give the same weight to goat herders of all eras. They are a good source for information about goat herding but I would not rely on their knowledge about cosmology, biology, the here after, or the nature, laws and wants of invisible gods. There is no problem, I am consistent.
Where did I claim to be an atheist?
Netwriter 2 years ago
Maybe I'm wrong and you're are a theist.
So how precisely does the position you stated differ from.
I would not prejudge the goat herders, would listen to what they said, unbiased and most likely dismiss their ideas unless they could come up with any better than current science.
tmesist 2 years ago
Do you believe the bible? Is the information there superior to modern science in regard, the cause and treatment of disease, how the universe came about, how the earth and life upon it came about, the age of the universe, the age of the earth? If this information provided by ancient goat herders, contained in the bible, is faulty, isn't it logical to discard their other claims about a god, heaven, hell, angels, demons and other superstitious notions? If not why not?
Netwriter 2 years ago
With you running the enlightenment we'd still be living in the dark ages.
tmesist 2 years ago
People who put more value in the babblings of ancient goat herders over that of modern science and reason are still living in the dark ages.
Netwriter 2 years ago
If I wanted to know something about the raising of goats, I would talk to a goatherd.
If I wanted to know something about geology, I would talk to a geologist.
If I wanted to know something about medicine, I would talk to a doctor.
I would seek out the experts in the field where I have questions; it is those people who are most likely to be correct.
I have not found the bible to be a useful or reliable resource for any question about anything.
kshackleton 2 years ago
The bible was not "written" as a book. The bible is a compilation of different documents that were gathered from a larger grouping of documents. The Roman Emperor Constantine commissioned the creation of the bible as a means of consolidating his power over an increasingly fractious empire that was in danger of disintegrating. The council of clerics commissioned to create the bible cherry picked the documents to suit Constantine's requirements. If you follow the bible, learn its history.
LordAfwa 2 years ago
@LordAfwa
*rabble rabble rabble*
Don't you tell me to read!
*rabble rabble rabble*
Craigipedia 2 years ago 3
I am unqualifed to answer your question. I am neither a jew, muslim or christian. I think asking the man that lives a simple life outside the trappings of the status quo is a good idea. However, there is know profit in truth, one cannot lie when telling the truth, simplicity might cause dumbfoundedness in the conventional wisdom and create in it fear, anxiety, murder, hatred and bigotry. Wars might spring up.... Wait a minute!
It seems someone did ask the shepard!
motorolarules 2 years ago
Now do you want to continue to chat about goat herders of get to your real point. which I have answered.
tmesist 2 years ago
My answer as a theist is,
I am open minded to hear what anyone, any colour, sex, sexual orientation, social status has to say about anything including questions of morality, creation, meaning of life, from now or the past.
Whether I agree will be the result of careful consideration in light of the culture we live in today.
Now when you have a question about cosmology or biology why don't you go and find an old man sitting in square of a Greek village and ask him?
tmesist 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You have a bourgeois attittude to goat herders. You rather condescendingly insinuate a humble person incapable of intelligent rational thought despite numerous examples throughout human history people from humble backgrounds creating great works of science, literature and art.
Perhaps these days you look down at your nose at people from housing estates and think yuck those dirty ignorant lower class people, shouldn't even be allowed to vote.
tmesist 2 years ago
Me? It is theists who have this attitude, not me. They ignore goat herders of today but worship every word of the goat herders of a couple thousand years ago. My position on goat herder is consistent, they know how to herd goats, but when I want to know about the speciation of life I go to a biologist, or about the cosmos, I go to a cosmologist. If I want to know about goat herding I will go ask a goat herder. What do you ask goat herders about tmesist, electronic circuitry?
Netwriter 2 years ago
My suggestion is get out of that academic hidy hole go into less developed parts of the world, work out in small rural villages they get their electricity from village generators and do their own mechanical and electrical repairs.
While I have not had a conversation about electronics with a tribal person it is only because any discussion I had with the ones I have met, my knowledge would probably fall too short of theirs.
Do you do your own?
tmesist 2 years ago
Tmeist, less than 20% of Africa has access to electricity, and those that do are monitored almost entirely by trained electricians. The few places where untrained individuals produce electricity usually involves smart people READING SCIENCE BOOKS WRITTEN BY PROFESSIONALS and putting together their own generators.
At no point in this are ignorant goat herders from the Middle East producing miraculous revelations about the nature of the universe.
Hooya2 2 years ago
A very simplistic and condescending view of the theist... As traditions are passed down the beliefs get rooted deeper into the culture. Kinship plays a very large role in the rearing of children. Kids are succeptible to accepting information unquestioningly. Certain things can stick very hard in some individuals. Being religious doesn't make people retarded, it just blockades certain thought processes due to fear of change/the unknown/ consequences. Kept it general due to lack of space to type
not4resale 2 years ago 2
Then the logical response to illogical traditions, is to stop their transmission? I disagree. It isn't the passage of the idea that promotes it through the generations, it is the special dispensation that our culture grants toward religion that allows its entrenchment without reason.
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
and why does religion have this "special dispensation"?
Have you spoken to a nationalist about why he loves his country so?
not4resale 2 years ago
Are you saying that nationalism and theism are the same?
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
They share certain irrationalities and they are both transmuted through kinship. Nationalism as we know it developed under the rulership of napoleon in France when he introduced mandatory primary education for all youngsters in the country.
not4resale 2 years ago
I agree. Racism as well. I think religion is slightly different. The entire subject is (pardon the expression), sacrosanct. If, for instance, there was an ultra nationalistic Frenchman and an ultra nationalistic German classmate in a public school, we would not endeavor to celebrate their respective nationalistic irrationalities. In contrast, we are currently in the season of Christma-Hanu-Rama-Ka-Dona-Kwanzaa (Roy Zimmerman). The other irrationalities just don't quite get the same respect.
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
Far be it from me to defend the Theists but they are bound to reply that their Holy books are not the words of goatherders (which we all know they are) but the direct word of god.
pilgrimpater 2 years ago
This video is awsome. I honestly don't understand why theists are so stupid.
MOMORPIGER 2 years ago 2
I don't think theist are stupid...My opinion is that they just have been thought something at a young age and it brings them comfort. I'm in college and I know many smart theist...Granted most are not Biology majors(they tend to avoid that path because it forces them to learn an understand evolution) and yes the atheist classmate % went way up after leaving high school. I know many theist that do well in "neutral" paths like Mathematics and Physics.
masterchiefgtx 2 years ago
Yeah I think your right. I go to a catholic high school and honestly most of them here are dumb. There are some smart ones though.
MOMORPIGER 2 years ago
LOL...I'm on break as a biology major. One of my classmates in an unrelated class is a math major. She is extremely bright, and a creationist. Go figure. As you say, she avoids science like the plague. I hope someday that her encounters in physics bring her around.
PrairiePie23 2 years ago
The problem with people today is that some of them might come up with an inconveniant truth.
skinnyjohnsen 2 years ago
My mom said that I'm not open minded because I don't believe in god.... I just laughed for a good hour or so.
stewie7griffin 2 years ago 2
I have asked the exact same question of some of the same religionists in the past. They always trot out some more of the same tired redundant Abrahamic holey-babble as always and continue on their delusional way...confident that they "know" what the truth is. How sad...
LoriMac1974 2 years ago
Great question.
superfisto 2 years ago
well I am pretty sure theists will say its because they believe that the goat herders received revelations from their god. Isn't that what the bible is supposed to be? (Just sayin)
squirrly001 2 years ago
I don't understand people's hate for Palin.
clarity2325 2 years ago
Because she represents the coming of an Idiocracy. A society where working hard and actually being good at what you do goes unrewarded, whilst just being likable is reason enough to give one the highest office in the land. Say what you will about Bush, he at least displayed an interest in politics. Palin has repeatedly demonstrated not only remarkable little knowledge of the political sphere, but almost no interest either. This is not someone I want making policy for Americans.
h8uall66 2 years ago 3
Because she's a journalism major who couldn't name a news paper.
AAL 2 years ago
I like this argument!
Mathesonguy 2 years ago
Lol Jesus' Disciples were't goatherders! They were fishermen!!!
Captain42x 2 years ago
tax collectors and prostitutes
A bunch of people known throughout history for being the most truthful of all humanity.
AAL 2 years ago
Great video! Thanks
TucsonDave111 2 years ago
This is why I'm a discordianist. I get to be pope.
Gruegirl 2 years ago
It's a nice soundbite, but if you believe the Bible the book was actually written by authors ranging from Moses to the kings of Israel, and later by historians and apostles, and if you believe the historians the Bible was written by priests, story-tellers, and various anonymous authors.
These people were likely as ignorant of the nature of the universe as the modern Afghan goat-herder, if not more so, but they probably weren't actually goat-herders.
Hooya2 2 years ago
(Just so you know, there probably wasn't a Moses.)
HailCthulhu 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
That was kinda racist. People are people no matter where they live. But some are less educated ofcourse, Wisdom comes in many ways, not just through technology or books. God speaks thru and to people all over the world, not just in our modern times. But God chose to make his main mark 2 thousand yrs ago, not now.
clarity2325 2 years ago
At what point in this video were the goat herders implied to be anything other than uneducated?
Convienent.
HailCthulhu 2 years ago
Clarity, the question isn't what do you believe, it's why you believe it. Why do you think the word of individuals who lived 2k years ago + is more worthwhile than the word of individuals in similar conditions living today? If a priest in Afghan today started claiming that God spoke to him and revealed commandments we should follow, and then told you crazy-ass things like 'shrimp are an abomination' would you take him seriously?
Hooya2 2 years ago
Correction, priest in Afghanistan* lol
Hooya2 2 years ago
Hooya---well i dont think the afghans are better off today, they are more desolate and they don't believe in the bible, they are muslims. But really it makes no difference where they live or what time era, but it is God who chooses to speak to or dwell with people. God choose for Christ to come two thousand yrs ago, not 6 thousand, not now, why? Idk....God chooses to do everything when and how he wants, not just that. Btw, shrimp is created to be a scavenger, not meant to b edible.
clarity2325 2 years ago
Clarity, I specifically said that I'm asking you WHY YOU BELIEVE, not WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Can you even tell the difference? You say God chose to reveal himself 2k years ago, I'm asking you why you think that is true. Why do you put stock in the stories of that age over the stories of individuals today?
And what do you mean, shrimp wasn't meant to be edible? If God wanted it to not be edible, he apparently messed up, because it is edible.
Hooya2 2 years ago 4
hooya- i did answer, I said I don't know :) I also said God does what he wants, the way he wants, and when he wants concerning EVERYTHING in life, not just the writing of the bible.
clarity2325 2 years ago
Clarity, either you still don't understand my question, or you're insane. I asked you 'why do you believe'. Are you telling me that you DON'T KNOW why you believe the Bible is true? How can you not know why you believe what you believe?
And clarity, more technologically advanced civilizations have access to more knowledge, simply as a matter of course. Net's discrimination is logically sound.
Hooya2 2 years ago
Hooya-I thought your question was "why do you believe God did what he did thousands of yrs ago and not so much now?' That is what I was trying to answer, as for the qestion of why I believe the bible is true? That answer is because the HolySpirit has revealed it as truth to me, and I personally hold no human accountable for NOT believing, I beleive it is Gods job to reveal himself to you. to be cont:...
clarity2325 2 years ago
I agree we are more educated in many ways for our modern advancemnets but I blieve wisdom and logical thinking is a differnt aspe
clarity2325 2 years ago
Clarity, how could you possibly have misunderstood what I was asking after I spelled it out explicitly twice? Were you simply not reading my comments?
And in what way exactly did the Holy Spirit reveal this truth to you? A feeling? A physical appearance?
Hooya2 2 years ago 2
Hooya I read your comments and answered accordingly. As for the Holy Spirit...you've heard of "the minds eye"?? Well I call it "my minds ear". Not physical adio, but in my soul and mind...and feelings deep within. Answers to questions in prayer too. Convictions, rebukes, and washing me over with love.
clarity2325 2 years ago
If you read my comments, why did you repeatedly fail to answer my question of 'why do you believe?'
So the 'holy spirit' speaks to you in feelings? My next question should be predictable; how do you know these feelings are real, and not just a placebo effect?
My point with the snake thing wasn't that God was cruel, but that God punished people simply for expressing doubt--an act fundamentally incompatible with the freedom of expression values you ascribe to him.
Hooya2 2 years ago
that is one little point in why i refruse to believe in god, there is a battle between the realism of god, the answer is simple who cares if god is real or not because it simply is impossible to prove whats not there, but seriously come on think about it lol, back to my point, my point is if god exists and you believe in the bible then god is an evil hypocritacl maniacal sinister being who deserves to be in hell himself
taso1388 2 years ago 2
God sometimes punishes for our sins, sometimes he sets us up to challenge us and test us and make us stronger souls. God can punish us for doubt, but at the same time he knows it is part of our journey. As for questioning my reality with God, well I can question all realities too....
clarity2325 2 years ago
You say God sometimes punishes us for sins, but according to Numbers God sent the serpents on the people for questioning Moses. Are you saying that simply questioning Moses was a sin? Once again I want to point out that that is antithetical to the concept of freedom of expression.
And again, why does God want us to be 'stronger souls'? Strength is only a feature that's valuable in adversity. You're saying God gave us tough situations so we could learn to survive in tough situations?
Hooya2 2 years ago
clarity2325, how can you be sure that your feeling of being washed over by love is not some trick done by the Devil?
WarmWeatherGuy 2 years ago
In fact, that is *exactly* what is happening. I worship the devil and he has told me during prayer that he has fooled most of the world into believing in Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Shiva, and others as a test (and because he rolls that way)!
Does Clarity *know* that this isn't true? If so, how? From The Book she reads (that my Lord Satan wrote to deceive him)?
AncientAtheist 2 years ago 2
Ancient Atheist, in the end it is not what I know, but what IS the truth. And this holds true for all things in life, we need for a day to come where we can see and know and understand all things...I believe in a God that will do this for us.
clarity2325 2 years ago
I know you do. I'm saying "I believe in a god that is fooling you". But how do we know which of us is right?
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
AncientAtheist: Yes I understand what you are saying, and that can be used against all things in life, not just spiritual beliefs. We need God himself to show both of us, all of mankind the truth in a way we all can be sure.
clarity2325 2 years ago
Of course, the claim that some magic being is fooling you is possibly true for ANYTHING, and isn't particularly worthy of consideration. If we accept that claim as plausible, then all epistemology collapses.
However, the possibility that you're suffering from a placebo effect is more subtle. Placebos can't make you see or hear things (not unless you're already unstable). I suppose what I'm trying to say is that seeing is believing, but feeling is a rather dubious method of determining truth.
Hooya2 2 years ago
WarmWeatherguy: You are right, ultimately we must trust that God is a good God and will see us through in the end. If God does not save us from ourselves, sins, and the devil....we are doomed. So it's not about me knowing when the devil tricks me, it's about needed God to make it all good in the end. That is our only hope.
clarity2325 2 years ago
@clarity2325
+ultimately we must trust that God is a good God+
Only if you are not a christian or muslim. The words of these gods point to their being totally immoral and vile. Only a deist can have hope for a "good" god.
adolthitler 2 years ago
Well I believe that God will save all of mankind, adolfhitler.
clarity2325 2 years ago
@clarity2325
+Btw, shrimp is created to be a scavenger, not meant to b edible. +
So the fact that shrimp taste really nice, is proof of unintelligent design, and god is therefore an idiot!
adolthitler 2 years ago
Yes, 2000 years ago, when god committed suicide, saving a small percentage of his creation. Good Plan!
216trixie 2 years ago 3
216trix--if he came now, the critics would say why not sooner God??? Yes humans are VERY resentful toward God for this mess we are in, but God says he will make it all good in the end, btw I believe God will save all mankind, not just some.
clarity2325 2 years ago
@clarity2325
+if he came now, the critics would say why not sooner God??+
You think with great clarity. Now the question is why did Jesus not come when Adam and Eve ate the apple? So all humanity had the chance of salvation. God once again divinely plans stupidity.
adolthitler 2 years ago
adolf: God wants us to go through....for lack of a better term....hell first. It's part of the plan. God said "let us make man in our image" and I don't think he is yet completed his creation, the bible says we are a complete creation in Christ Jesus. So we can't stop the artist in the middle of his work and judge him....let him finish the work he began in us first...then we can judge...the bible predicts that we will all praise God on that day.
clarity2325 2 years ago
@clarity2325
+God wants us to go through+
LOL he needs us to be battle hardened?
What ever happened to perfect design?
Why make flawed people then force them to compete, for resources? Or force them to find god, with no evidence? And to find the right god from the thousands that have been proposed?
That has to be the dumbest plan ever.
adolthitler 2 years ago