ASOIAF Video Blog IIIb- R+L=J part II

[archquasit]

Stannis's main motivation (or at least, so he claims) is the natural order of heredity. Stannis doesn't want to be king, he admits he's a worse king than most of the other possibilities, the only reason he's fighting so hard is because it is his duty as the rightful king.

If a legitimate Targaryen heir turns up on his doorstep, I'd give even odds on Stannis just bending the knee right then and there (bearing in mind that the Baratheons are themselves usurpers).

[StreetlightEagle]

It just seems too obvious. I mean, John is shaping up to be the main character and the name of the series is ASOIAF... His song. I also think GRRM left Howland Reed alive at the tower of joy and sent his children with bran to find the 'three eyed crow' for a reason.

[shinerben]

I enjoyed your thoughts on the whole R+L=J. Dany's vision of a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice really only leaves open two possibilities. 1) The vision is wrong. But in that case why go to the trouble of including these visions at all? 2) ?+L=J. No real evidence of Rhaegar's involvement, but if it was someone else the term deus ex machina comes to mind.

[Maturin34]

There is a recent posting on YouTube of a preliminary cast list for the HBO adaptation of A GAME OF THRONES. Is this a legitimate list or does anyone know? HBO website searches do not unearth this series, though I know it was being considered by HBO & may be the reason for Martin's delay in completing Book V. He is supposed to retain significant control over the screenplay & may be putting much of his time into adapting Book I for the HBO mini-series.

[Maturin34]

Is Book 5 coming out in September 2009 or what? (A DANCE WITH DRAGONS)

[jilow]

I think it was supposed to come out this year sometime, but you know martin, saying he's had trouble writing dany's story and what not.

I do agree Jon is a central character, and could very well be the son of R and L; however, I think it'll be a bit cliche and expected if he hooks up with Dany. Though they are a good match story wise.

I'd prefer more of a twist... Like she is into him, but he rejects her, but she wants him so she works with him or something yadda yadda yadda...

[Maturin34]

jilow, You're right it would be too much of a good thing to have Dany hook up with Jon Snow. Perhaps she might make a good wife for Tyrian. I believe Tyrian will flee to Dany as will Aria & perhaps Sanser. Maybe Dany will marry Bran, but I suspect Bran will marry Mira Reed.

[jilow]

It is intersting that Martin said that Jon's parentage will be revealed. But apparently Jon looks more stark than other starks, or more northern at least. Could be a clue that it was two northerners.

I do kind of see Martin trying to tie Dany in with Jon Snow, and this would help that transistion. I personally would not like seeing that. Jon to get together with someone born of incest, makes me shudder.

They can team up but hook up, I hope not.

[Maturin34]

jilow, It is clear that Jon Snow is most likely the child of Rhaegar & Eddard's sister. Therefore Jon Snow is "the Prince that was Promised" and likely he will be one of Dhanrys husbands. This would mean that he would be marrying his aunt, but it is what it is. The blood of old Valerian is reminiscent of Tolkien's Eldar who supposedly married their own kin as well. Hence in the context of the story incest is not a taboo.

[jilow]

George R. R. Martin did say he was going to reveal it doesn't follow that in the books in order to reveal it to us readers he has to reveal it to jon snow, and jon snow has to beleive it.

That may be a plausible case though. And one worth exploring the options to narrow down who his real parents are.

However it's not the end all be all. It's very possible it's revealed to us readers but Jon doesnt know at the time, and later on if MArtin wants he creates a situation for jon to find out.

[statecensor]

Varis did read the letter. Remember he told ned stark that he would read the letter and he would maybe deliver it. Depending on whats inside.

[jconner78]

just one question/comment/whatever

you stated that Jon would be ahead in the line of succession to Dany, but Dany is daugher of Aerys and Jon is (in theory) the son of Rheagar... Dany would be first in line, no?

[tdrepka2]

No- royal succession passes through eldest son. Any sons of Rhaegar would take priority over any younger brothers or sisters he had. Anyway, with a few exceptions, royal succession is usually biased in favour of males.

For a real example, Prince Charles is heir to the British throne. His two sons (William and Harry) are next in the line of succession- Princes Andrew and Edward and Princess Anne are behind them. Any children William has will then jump ahead of Harry in the line for the throne.

[archquasit]

For Jon to be a legitimate heir, Rhaegar and Lyanna need to have actually been married, or else he's still just a bastard. A royal bastard, but they're pretty clear on royal bastards having no hereditary rights at all. It hasn't yet been made clear whether they were legitimately married (if they were, we can add whatever septon officiated to the list of people who would know about it).

[outforsushi]

@archquasit If Jon marries Dany, then he become legit king, even if he's a bastard

[sauron9990]

there is one line which totally convinced me

something like "A blue winter rose encased by a wall of ice"

Blue Winter Rose= Lyanna

Wall of Ice= Night Watch

also Arya looks like Lyanna

Jon looks like Arya

although that does not mean that Jon looks like Lyanna it does seem to suggest it at the very least

also the "bed of blood" reference has been used many times in the series to refer to birthing and Lyanna was found in a "bed of blood"

[bugsbane]

Another possibility for the "reveal" to Jon: Wylla. This was mentioned in some previous comments. ASOS#44. Edric Dayne was milk brothers with Jon but might not know the truth. There is no word on whether or not Wylla has survived.

[Wolfgang713]

Jon would still be a bastard though making Dany the heir still. Lyanna and Rhaegor (spl. sorry) didn't marry he already was married, it was an affair.

I think the only way he will learn about it is if Dany finds out and/or she gets it on with Jon and he journeys south (royal pardon from the nights watch and being a bastard [which could come from Robbs letter too]) and then he meets Howland Reed and convinces him to tell.

But wait I don't remember Ned writing a letter and giving it to Varys?

[sergeantcortez]

Varys is a master of disguise: if he wants to get to the wall unrecognized, he'll get there. Besides, there isn't an APB out for him at the wall.

This video leaves out all the evidence from Ned, the only person who would definitively know the parentage of Jon Snow. While the previous video attempts to discredit prophecy, the dothraki lack magical lore.

[Maturin34]

Was the order of events (1)Rhagar shuns Cerci L. & marries the Red Scorpion's sister "Ilia";(2)Rhagar allegedly rapes Eddard's sister;(3)Brandon S. executed by A.Taggerian;(4)Battle at the Trident where in (4a)Rhagar killed by Robert,(4b)Ilia killed by the Mountain, (4c)A.T. killed by Jamie L.,(4d)fight w/Kingsguard @ the Tower of Joy?

[tdrepka2]

No.

1. Rhaegar marries Elia of Dorne.

2. Rhaegar abducts Lyanna

3. Rickard and Brandon Stark killed by Aerys

4. Battle of the Trident- Rhaegar dies

5. Tower of Joy incident

6. Sack of King's Landing, murder of Aerys by Jaime, and Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon by Gregor

[Maturin34]

Thanks, seems we are mostly in agreement. For a second I thought I had read the wrong book(s). I just couldn't fit the TOJ incident into the chain of events.

So, what's the evidence that RT actually "raped" Lyanna? I'm pretty sure that was attributed to RT. Was there a child & what did Lyanna die from - childbirth? She died in a bed. If there was a child & Eddard knew RBs wrath against any Taggerian heirs - might this account for a hidden child. Martin has a lot of parallel characters.

[Wolfgang713]

no I believe Ned and Robert fight on the Trident and kill Rhaegar then Ned leads first wave of northmen south to Kings Landing to find that Lannisters have sacked the city. Then Robert pardons Gregor for child killing so Ned gets pissed with Robert and leaves, Breaking the siege at Storms End then going further south to the Tower of Joy and Lyanna. so Tower of Joy is last incident.

[Stoneseer]

Correct order other than the final two are reversed. AGoT Pg.425 1997 Bantam MM Paperback edition: "When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your King with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." - Ned to the Kingsguard at ToJ.

I am very surprised no one has mentioned the "bed of blood" references in relation to this theory in these postings. It has been used to refer to a birthing bed by GRRM in a different place in the series if memory serves (earlier in AGoT maybe?)

[Maturin34]

I believe I read on Wikipedia that Jaken H'ghar reappears for Sam Tarley. Is there a relationship between Jaken H'ghar & Varys the master whisperer? Perhaps from the same discipline? Perhaps the same person? I doubt the latter. And why in the he-- does Aria have to go blind at the end of Book 4. I hated that. I also feel my "nerd %ile" increasing exponentially the more I get into this series and the more comments I make.

[tdrepka2]

Jaqen H'ghar appears to be a Faceless Man. As far as I know he has nothing to do with Varys, although it has been suggested he is both the Alchemist and Pate now.

[Maturin34]

RE: Howlin Reed

I apologize, but I am a terrible speller of these names. In any event wasn't Howlin Reed the guy who saved Eddard Stark from Sir Arthur Dane when they met the King's Guard that one last time during the Battle of the Triton?

[tdrepka2]

They met the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy- not the Trident. Ned and Howland were the only survivors of that engagement.

[Maturin34]

I don't think these two points are at odds. Wasn't one of the crowning points of the Battle at/of the Triton the destruction of the unyielding King's Guard at the "Tower of Joy?"

[tdrepka2]

The Kingsguard was NOT at the Battle of the Trident, they were at the Tower of Joy- which is on the border with Dorne, a long way from the Trident

[Maturin34]

So what was the time frame of these two events - The "Battle of the Trident" & the fight at the "Tower of Joy?" I thought the latter must have occurred simultaneously or just after the "Battle of the Trident." Your comments seem to suggest that the two events were wholly unrelated. Please clarify.

[Maturin34]

I thought the fight with the Kingsguard at the "Tower of Joy" was one of the final climactic events of the "Battle of the Trident." I do not recall any more explanation of the "Tower" fight than as a flashback related by Eddard or when Bran later recalls Eddard's admission that Sir Arthur Dane would have killed Eddard were it not for H. Reed.

[Wolfgang713]

Only one kings guard was at the Trident; Ser Barristan the Bold.

[Maturin34]

Only three of the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy guarding Leanna Stark. Jaime was at King's Landing and we are left to assume that the others were at the Trident.

[Maturin34]

Are you discussing the "R+L = JS" theory because you wish to see Daenarys choose Jon as one of her husbands? I want to believe that she will. Jon deserves her and she him.

[tdrepka2]

In short, no- I discussed it because it's perhaps the biggest debating point and is something I've read a lot about and wanted to add my opinions to. I don't have any feeling one way or 'tother about Jon and Dany getting it together.

[Maturin34]

The archer traveling with Aria on her original trek to River Run told Aria that Jon was his milk brother and that Jon was the son of the wet nurse. This sounds like a lie. I do not believe that Jon Snow is the son of R & L.

[Maturin34]

Correction. I don't think it was the archer traveling with Lim & the troubador that originally met Aria, Gendry, & Hot Pie during their escape from Harenhal(msp?), but maybe it was actually the boy named "Ned" whom was at the Hand's Tourney and later travelled alongside Aria who told her about his prior relationship with Jon Snow.

[tdrepka2]

The implication was that they shared a wet nurse- not a mother.

[Maturin34]

Wow - thanks for all the comments. It is great to correspond with someone else, if only via YouTube, who has been to "The Wall" as it were. However, I could have sworn that the boy "Ned" told Aria that the reason he & Jon were "milk brothers" was because Jon's mother was the wet nurse. I'll have to check on that point. I'd rather not believe that Jon was only a wet-nurse's son.

[Maturin34]

When is the HBO production to take place? I agree with your comments about the dynamic characters. Did Eddard's body ever get back to Winterfell? Who is Jon Snow's mother - I.Dane or her milk maid?

[JenKryza]

If he helped a bastard of Robert why not one of Raegar? I don't think it's too farfetched that he might head for Jon now that he doesn't have a place in Kings Landing... assuming he knows =J and assuming this is true.

Nice blog! :)

(apologies for 3 replies, I went over the character count limit)

[JenKryza]

While we're on the topic of Varys another interesting bit is that he has probably already taken action to protect Robert's byblow, Gendry. Yoren mentioned that a man came to him, gave him a boy, and told him that Ned was about to take the black. This boy might have been Gendry, and the man is possibly Varys (or one sent by Varys) since he brought that info about Ned. Whisperings are The Spider's game.

[Maturin34]

Yes, Gendry was protected by Varys or "mayhaps" it was a last order of Eddard's to have Gendry taken on by Yoren to The Wall.

[JenKryza]

Don't forget Varys is a master of disguise;)

Who says Stannis even has to be aware of Varys delivering such a letter to Jon. All Varys might need are some Blacks to wear.

If Ned did write a letter to/about Jon after that chapter in AGOT, Jon would be free to believe it or not, and tell Stannis... or not.

[jawrambus]

I disagree with the Stannis part. He was very loyal to the Targs and betraying them to help his brother was the hardest thing he ever did. If there was a Targ to claim the throne.. I could see Stannis helping the claiment, as he doesn't want the throne. It is his duty. But if the rightfull King were to be crowned, he would see it as his duty to serve..

Thar was MHO.. hehe.

Otherwise nice clip ;)