" The highest rated horse of the (20th) Century " ... Sea Bird ! " It is safe to say this was a world championship" .... " a handicap mark YET to be equalled *
awesome horse a real champion. just wish the yanks would stop trashing our horses weve been breeding horses longer than they hav been a country. not saying they havnt had exceptional horses but i wish they wouldnt make out were inferior to them coz theres great horses both sides of the pond.
That was a dominating performance by SeabirdII. Even when the 2nd horse fired with 100metres left he just refired, and all under a hand ride. He still is to me the best flat horse ever. If you put Seabird in a gate with Big Red, Man O War, and NjinskyII, he would still come out on top. Pure brilliance this horse was.
National pride has no place in a discussion on great racehorses.Seabird was a beautiful thoroughbred.Fantastic great horse.I dont care if he was French or Finnish.Secretariat was undoubtedly the greatest most powerful horse to ever live and I dont care which country he came from.I see only the horse.I base SEC's claim to most powerful ever on his 3 TC wins all in record time and his move on the first turn of the Preakness(never seen a horse accelerate like that).
@doublearpeggio I noticed you closed your account recently, not long after I was following a debate between you and some fool on the Kentucky Derby vid - you shouldn't let people's stupidity get to you. I enjoyed your informative comments, including on this thread, and hope you will come back soon. Regarding your latest post here, I agree - Secretariat had the most devastating acceleration of any horse I've seen. Sea Bird was brilliant too...thanks to his grandsire, Native Dancer!
@doublearpeggio Exceller actually had more success in the States, and on dirt ! He defeated the great Seattle Slew. A fair percentage of European trained horses are American bred - but as I pointed out, those American stallions themselves mainly descended from a European/British lineage. I know how good Secretariat was - I watched him win the Belmont in 1973. He was a relentless galloper. I still maintain that he did not have the instantaneous turn of speed that Sea Bird or Nijinsky possessed.
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat was a relentless galloper who would have taken all the sting out of Sea Bird's end acceleration. Over 5 furlongs, Sea Bird may well have been faster. Any longer distance and he'd be running for second place behind Secretariat.
@doublearpeggio Whether those horse you mention could have won an Arc is merely merely supposition and conjecture. It is just as tough for a European horse to win on US classic or major race on dirt as it is for an American horse to win a Group race over here on grass ( turf ). That said, many more Europeans have crossed the pond than vice versa. Exceller, previously trained in France ( on turf ) made the transition to dirt, as did JO Tobin, once trained by Noel Murless (H. Cecil's dad in law )
@doublearpeggio I would love to have seen the likes of Zenyatta come over and test her mettle against Europe's finest. The Australians and Japanese are more inclined to send theri horses over. I think dirt is a specialist surface and one which the better American horses are more accustomed to, so why bother racing against Europe's best on a surface (grass) which is alien to them. Another consideration is the prize money. American prize money is invariably higher, so why bother, they might say.
@ThefightingCelt The US trained horses don't race in Europe becuase the tracks are turf and very steep, unlike those flat, left handed ones they have in the US, imagine some of their horses, running on a right handed, steep course like Goodwood, Ascot or Longchamp?
@MrAddyginsh Second tier US horse, Hill Rise, was sent to the UK in '66 and won the QEII Stakes with some ease, later being named Champion UK Miler for that year. Tom Rolfe, who's not even in the US top 100, placed 6th in the '65 Arc, beating many a Euro specialist in that race, in what may have been the strongest field ever. Imagine if top US turf winners like Secretariat, Damascus and Buckpasser were sent to UK/Europe. Native Dancer was all set to go but got injured. cont...
@MrAddyginsh To continue: regarding John's "drugs" comment, I already debunked it on another thread, when I mentioned horses like Cigar, Curlin and Well Armed winning the Dubai World Cup drug free. Cigar is an example of a horse who was just as devastating with and without Lasix. Alysheba killed the field at the G1 Woodward drug free, his trainer wanting to prove a point. Sec relied only on monster (legendary) workouts before races to get that huge heart of his (X-Factor) in shape.
@MrAddyginsh The UK Triple Crown are the 2000 Guinaes Stakes, Epson Derby and the St. Legir Stakes. All are group 1 'Flat' races on 'Turf'.In case anyone that don't know 'FLAT' means 'LEVEL'. The mighty SeaBird ran that Epsom 1 1/2 mile Derby in 2:38.41. Secretariat won the 1 1/2 mile Belmont 'FLAT' course in 2:24 and gallop Out another furlong in 2:37 3/5. Secretariat just ran a 1 5/8 mile Galloping Out faster than SeaBird ran a 1 1/2 mile. Case closed.
@rscarbro100 Firstly the UK Triple Crown consists of the 2000 GUINEAS, the EPSOM DERBY, and the ST LEGER, secondly FLAT racing doesn't mean that the courses are flat, all flat means is that the races are run with no obstacles to jump. So the whole Sec is the greatest ever is rampant speculation, and when have I said SeaBird was the best ever or indeed better than Sec? We can talk all day long, but the only way to find out who's better, is for the 2 to race each other. CASE CLOSED.
@MrAddyginsh With all due respect my friend. I am very aware of the 3 races that makes up the UK TC. I am also aware that some of the European tracks have a slighty up hill grade but it always followed to the finish line with a down hill grade. Yet it may be slower than a Belmont track but surely it is not nowhere over 1/8 of a mile slower. If so then it is an obstacle course with many barriers to conquer. They had to remove some of those barriers when Worforce ran it in 2:31.33.
@rscarbro100 Well, times are a factor in how well races are won and how great a horse is, but there are horses who have won races in a record time, and they are not amongst the best to have won the races, e.g. take Danedream the 2011 Arc winner, ran it in a record 2:24.49, but take horses like SeaBird, Mill Reef, Sea the Stars and Dancing Brave, not the fastest times but these horses is far superior to Danedream, but it would have been great to see Sec run the Arc, cont.
@MrAddyginsh That point many times had been brought to attention but you fail to realize this does happen only once in a while. There are several factors why they did run a extraordinary fast race. Not so with Secretariat and some other greats. Look at his Gotham 1:33 2/5 time & its a fact he had tons of problems in that race with his breathing as explain 'To the Swift' by Red Smith. The Derby still all these yrs. not broken. Ran every quarter faster than the previous. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh That is totally unheard off by any old time track horseman for a 1 1/4 mile & running the last quarter in 23 flat & possilby 22 4/5 as said by Bill Christine. The Preakness only ties in all these yrs. We all know about the Belmont & Red Smith again 'To the Swift said if asked by Turcotte he would have broken the World Record' which was 2:23 flat at that time on turf by Fiddle Isle. 1/5 off the track record at Arlington were the track was running deep. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Besides Secretariat was not set on a fast pace by Turcotte & was not going for a track record. The Marlboro Race was probably his best ever. With only 4 workouts in 2 wks. coming off a serious illness he set a WR taking the long route. Not only that he was clocked in 1:57 4/5 'Pulling Up' at the 1 1/4 post. His Man 0' War race is still a record at Belmont Park on turf. He was not a one race 'Wonder'.like Danedream and many others. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh All the records he broke was done taking the long route except for the Gotham and Belmont. He was never 'Driven Out' in a race. He last workout 3 days before the Woodbine was the fastest any old time track horseman could ever remember at that track. I can give you the URL of Secretariat PP's. of his workouts. They were amazing setting records and setting them 'Pulling Up'. On March 14, 1973 not yet a 3 yr. old ran a 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds. A WR at that time.
@MrAddyginsh One of those quarters was ran in 21 1/5 seconds only 2/5 off the World record. He ran a 1 mile workout a week before the Whitney race in 'MUD' in fractions of 45 2/5, 1:09 2/5, 1:21 3/5 and 1:34 for the mile.Steve Haskins the source. It was a record at that time at Saratoga. No horse in all them yrs. had ever ran it in less than 1:34 2/5 there. He was eased another furlong in 1:47 3/5 another record at that track. I am sure you get my point my good man.
@rscarbro100 When I mentioned horses who won racrs in record time, but not the best horse to win the race, with Sec, he was consistent in his workouts too and set record times, and indeed fractions in 2 of the 3 US TC races, that certainly proves your theory. But my only doubt is would he have won the Arc, I say this because, while he achieved what he did, and in the manner that he did, he did lose 5 times, so with most horses he was beatable, though it was really difficult. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Watch his maiden race my good man. Clearly you can see why he lost. The other loss as a 2 yr. old was from disquaification. Yet he won the race.Even the experts knew it would not had make a difference. If Seabird had a quarter size abscess at the bit I doubt he could win or any horse for that matter. It is well documented by bloodhorse he was sick before the Whitney and no workouts before the Woodard. Of couse the Secretariat haters will not accept that. Cont.
@rscarbro100 If Sec was so much better than European the horses at that time, he would have been sent over for the Arc. Why do you think Australia send so many sprinters to Royal Ascot, to run in the Golden Jubilee or the Kings Stand stakes? because they believe they have the best sprinters, this I also believe to be true, in Europe we believe we have the best middle distance horses, especially on Turf, hence the reason so many of our horses go the Breeders Cup each year. Cont.
@rscarbro100 Why did they wait til 1984, to inaugurate the Breeders Cup? Wish it could have been inaugurate sooner. It would have been fascinating to see Sec against Europe's elite at the time, there is no doubt Europe's horses would have loved a crack at him, though chances are it would have been one sided, especially at Kentucky Downs or Belmont Park.
@MrAddyginsh Read Bloodhorse editor Steve Hakins article the unbeatable horse. He said he should have not been entered into them races. No workouts for 2 wks. before the Woodard he still ran a 2:26 3/5 time on a 'Sloppy' track.. That was the record time before Secretariat broke it in the Belmont by 2 3/5 seconds. Would you say that was pretty amazing? He was already sold for 6 million dollars before he was 3. In no way Penny would risk taking him to Europe. Would you?
@MrAddyginsh He was blowing very hard after the Woodward race. Turcotte said he was only good to go a 1 1/8 mile. His workout before the Wood was very bad. Couldn 't kick bim to go. Very poor workout 3 days before the Whitney and he lost. He beat Angle Light 2 or 3 times before he lost to him. In the next race after the Wood Big Red beat him by over 12 lengths in the Derby And beat Onion in their race after the Whitney by 12 lengths carrying 7 lbs more in a world record time. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Every good workout before a race Secretariat never lost. One week later after the Woodward with a few workous he won the Man 0' War race in track record time that still stands today at Belmont Park And it was his first race on turf still not in top form. You don't get in top form in one week. I know SeaBird lost one race as a 2yr. old. Don't know the reason why but may had very good explanation. If so I will accept it. For Secretariat haters their is never an excuse.
@MrAddyginsh All of the triple crown races Secretariat was fit and sound as a horse could be. And how did he perform. A Derby record that still stands today. A Preakness record that only has been tied twice and a World Record Belmont in which no horse has came within 10 lengths of him as of today. Its not just the time he did in the Belmont. The most remarkable thing about it he ran that race in fractions no horse ever came close to in just a hand ride. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh After that Belmont race with those ever so fast fractions he was no where blowing like he was after the Woodard race. Woodie Broun said after the race he was not tired and looked like he was ready to go another trip. Bloodhorse Kent Hollingsworth said he done it without raising a sweat. Do you believe SeaBird could have won this race with no workouts in 2 full wks for a 1 1/2 mile race? I honestly believe he could not and I can very well understand why he couldn't.
@MrAddyginsh Every quarter fractions in the Belmont he ran was a record for the Belmont Stakes ever except the first quarter. He went through the 1 3/8 post in 2:11 2/5 seconds. Source Daily Racing Forum Charles Hatton. Thats faster than Man 0' War time in his Belmont vStakes ictory in 2:14 1/5. Faster than the offical World Record as of today which is 2:12 2/5 by Dem's Bret carrying 116 lbs. His mile time fraction was 1:34 1/5. Man 0' War WR time was 1:35 4/5 carrying 118 lbs.
@rscarbro100 Well we don't know for sure, if SeaBird couldn't have done it, but if he could have, the fractions and indeed overall times wouldn't have been as good, in my opinion, but like I said before, all we can do is speculate and give our honest opinions. But it could be a case of Europe, on the whole, has the best middle distance horses, however Secretariat is the single best middle distance horse? Just a thought.
@MrAddyginsh How true my good man but we aslo can only speculate if a turle can beat a rabbit since they never went head to head in a race. Is that not true? Nor can we only speculate whether a race horse could beat a Cheetah. Another, I guess we never know if Jesse Owens could have beaten Usian Bolt because they never race. I think we as men can make a pretty darn good guess by the horses past performances of what they are capable of.
@MrAddyginsh At what distance do you call a middle distance horse? Do you know the fractions SeaBird had in this race and most important his last 1/4 mile fraction?
@rscarbro100 The fractions, admittedly aren't as good as Sec's, but I think it's about how the horses are run, Sec a ruthless powerful galloper, SeaBird is simply bred to stay the distance and win the race, and no more, which is commonplace amongst most of Europe's horses, in my opinion. I don't know how other countries define middle distance but in Europe we define 5f - 6f as sprints, 7f - 14f as middle distance, and 15f or more as long distance.
@MrAddyginsh Secretariat ran from the back in most of his races. Circle the filed and blew them away down the strecth. In the Belmont he proved he could do it the other way. That is take to the front and hold it to the end destroying horses with those fast fractions way before the finish only with a hand ride. Can you imagine a horse after running a mile had the strength to run the last 1/4 mile in 23 or possibly 22 4/5 sec.as Bill Christine explained?
@MrAddyginsh The late Chrales Hatton a 45 yr. vteran for the Daily Racing forum had seen most of all the great American horses since Man 0' War clearly said Secretariat was the horse of the century and was the most capable of them all. That is a hell of a lot of horses that were foaled and ran since Man 0' War. As you know no other country has foaled nowhere near the numbers Amercia did. Many other old time horseman felt Secretariat the best that seen both MOW & Secretariat.Cont.
@MrAddyginsh The trainer of the K.Y Derby winner in 1916 who had seen more than Hatton said the same. His name is Hollie Hudges. I have never read where any horseman that has seen both thought Man 0' War was best. Beleive me I am not 'Bias. I do not care where Secretariat came from. Still he would have done what he did. I have never seen any horse that put up the numbers like Big Red did in such a short time.If this horse could not blow someone's mind then what other horse did?
@MrAddyginsh With all due respect to SeaBird my friend I absolutely cannot see anything he did to justify or indicate that he was capable to run against a horse like Secretariat. If so I would love for someone to explain it to me.If SeaBird even came close to putting up the numbers Big Red did believe me it would get my attention big time standing up with my eyes bigger than a saucer without a doubt.
@rscarbro100 I think it's hard to say what SeaBird at full throttle could have done, as it wasn't really his style. In the Arc, the Epsom Derby, and the Grand prix de Saint Cloud, he coasted on the bit and just casually strolled up to clinch the victory, with a few lengths in hand, granted it was never 31 lengths, but he wasn't what you call " a machine", just a fighting champion. His reputation came about by beating fields with a strong calibre, especially the Arc field of 1965.
@MrAddyginsh Tom Rolfe won only 3 major races in 1965, They were the American Derby, Arlington Inv. & the Preakness. Them 3 races was good enough to earn him 3 yr. old horse of the yr. That can tell you pretty much the competition he had in 1965, Only won 6 major races in his 3 yr. career. The only achivements I can find that Reliance had was he won the French Derby and for Anilin he only won the Russian Derby.I would not have found them if I did not look into Seabird record. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Did any expert Hoseman ever said SeaBird never ran at full throttle? Did they ever say he just casually strolled to clinch a victory or its it only a opinion by some? Talk is cheap proving it is another thing. Believe me my talk is cheap too unless I can back it up with credible sources. Lets remember Secretariat was never ridden out in a race. I will tell you the statements make by expert horseman on Secretariat Belmont Stakes run. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Lets start with the jockey Pat Day. He said he won it with the minimum of encouragement. Sportswriter Red Smith said if asked by Turcotte he would have broken the WR set by Fiddle Isle in 1970 running a 2:23 flat on turf at Santa Anita race track. Bloodhorse editor at the time Kent Hollingsworth said he won it without raising a sweat. Chic Anderson said Turcotte did nothing but hand ride him. Some pretty good horseman to back up my claim he was not at full throttle.
@MrAddyginsh Turcotte said right here on youtube he was just gallping in the Belmont and if really got into him down the stretch it would be hard telling what he would have done. As you might have already seen we got the severe mental retarded Secretariat hater as our vistor. Be careful and don't make him mad who will will talk shit about you mom. He don't take DRF or Bloodhorse as proof of anything. He goes off like a wild monkey when mad.
@MrAddyginsh Lets take a close look at Secretariat competition he ran against in the Marlboro Cup. All were older horses. Riva Rige winner of the Derby & Belmont. Still hold WR for the 1 3/16 mile. He also broke the WR in the Marlboro Cup 1:46 flat. Eclipse award at 2 and 4 yrs. old. Set 4 track records. Kennedy Road 5 time Canadian Champion. His trainer Clarke Whitaker said he was one of the best Canada ever produced.Secretariat beat 2 multiple champions in these two. Cont.
@MrAddyginsh Riva Ridge 127 lbs, Cougar ll 126 & Secretariat carried 124. SI Whitney Tower said they were true weight to age. Matter of fact Secretariat was 5 lbs better than R.R.as racing secretary Kenny Noe stated. Cougar ll was a turf champion in 1972 & was trained by Charley Whittingham & trained Sunday Silence as well. Wille Shoemaker called Cougar a runnin son of a gun. He was ranked as one of the top horses in the country on turf & dirt in 1971, 72 & 73 by the DRF.
@MrAddyginsh Cougar beat Ft.Marcy who was the 1970 horse of the year. Ft. Marcy beat Damascus by 1 1/2 lengths & was only 2 1/2 lengths back of the Dr. Fager. Cougar ran the Oak Tree Inv. on turf in 2:24 3/5. Ran the 2nd fastest 1 1/16 ever in 1:39 1/5. Thats just 1/5 slower than Swaps WR of 1:39 flat. Riva Ridge was voted 57th best of all time by Bloodhorse panelist. Cougar also tied the WR in the M.C. in 1:46 1/5. I will let you decide whether Secretariat competition was better.
@MrAddyginsh I forgot to mention Key to the Mint the 4th champion he beat in the Marlboro Cup. He was champion horse of the yr. in 1972. He ran a 1:33 3/5 mile at Belmont Park in 1973. Also Andy Beyer said Secretariat was not in the same form as he was in his Triple Crown races. Laurin said he would liked another week of training. He had only 4 workouts in 2 wks in where he had 6 each for the Derby, Preakness & Belmont.
@rscarbro100 Another example of my point would be the 2010 King George VI stakes, won by Harbinger, in 2:26.8, but horses like Ribot, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, and the horse who in many peoples opinion is the best miler ever, the awesome Brigadier Gerard, are much superior. This is why this sport is so great, we can debate, speculate, make logical arguments, and give valid opinions, but we're talking about what would hypothetically happen if the horses raced each other.
@doublearpeggio Tom Rolfe also won The American Derby, which was regarded as big event at that time. He was also rated and voted America's top three year old that year. The horse which won overall American horse of the year ( 1965 ) was a very good colt by the name of Roman Brother ; who went onto to compete in the Washington International that year. That particular race was won by Diatome. Yes, the very same Diatome whom Sea Bird had defeated three times already that season - once in the Arc.
@doublearpeggio The "mickey mouse" remark was said tongue firmly in cheek. I am also well aware of the influence of the North American breeds have had - particularly in recent decades. Go further back and see who they descended from.
@ThefightingCelt I checked out Timeform on Wiki and Sec's supposed "rating" was not mentioned, since they were not given for that period - Sec would have gotten at least 150 for his Belmont. And even if Morris mentioned some figure in his book, it doesn't mean anything. Did Sea Bird ever win a race by going each 1/4 mile faster than the previous one, from start to finish? That's was Sec did at Derby and Belmont. cont.
@ThefightingCelt The way Secretariat won those two races, especially Belmont, has nothing to do with "times of horse races", but with unique and umatched ability on the track - he was still accelerating when he hit the wire at Belmont, at the end of a 1 1/2 mile race in very hot conditions. Sea Bird, on the other hand, appeared to be tiring at the end of the Arc after running the same distance. Sec won on both dirt AND grass, and was the superior racehorse without a doubt.
@rcschumann A mile and half round Belmont on brick hard ground is much easier than a mile and half around Longchamps undulating turf course on good to soft ground. If you watch Sea Bird closely you will see that, although he jinks left, his jockey is only riding hands and heels and actually quickens again when he realises the previously undefeated Reliance is making rapid headway on him. Allen Jerkins, trainer of Prove Out and Onion said that Citation was superior to Secretariat.
@ThefightingCelt Actually if you watch that Jerkins video again (the user is NYRAvideo), he says that he doesn't feel Secretariat was greater than Citation, and maybe not even than Spectacular Bid. He doesn't say Cy was greater, because he doesn't want to look foolish. Anyway, that is just one man's opinion, based on the fact that his horses beat Sec. But he doesn't mention that Sec killed Onion at the Marlboro, and blasted the field at MOW (1st time on turf) after losing to Prove Out. cont.
@ThefightingCelt Sec was underprepared for the Woodward when he lost to Prove Out, having been training for the MOW on turf a week later. He subbed at the last minute for Riva Ridge who was poor on the slop (he failed at Preakness). Sec was ill with fever when he lost to Onion at the Whitney, and proved the loss was a fluke by blasting SIX champion older horses, including Onion at the Marlboro a short time later. Sec was greater than Cy, imo - if Jerkins feels he wasn't, that's his opinion.
@ThefightingCelt Regarding Sec's performance at Belmont, it doesn't matter what the surface was in the race - I know surface affects overall speed, but it was the MANNER in which he won, posting faster and faster 1/4 fractions throughout the race, in blistering hot conditions. No horse has ever won a race like that. No horse has ever won in so many different ways. If Tom Rolfe (only one major win in his career) could place 6th at the Arc, what would two-time G1 turf winner Sec have done?
@rcschumann Had Lucien Lauren and Mrs Chenery really wanted to test Secretariat, they could have sent him over for the 1973 Prix De L' Arc de Triomphe in Paris. The chose the much easier Canadian International instead. Now, if I had owned the supposed greatest colt of that year, I would have had no hesitation in sending him over to prove to those Europeans that he was just that. It was probably a very wise decision not to travel given the previous record of US trained horses raced in Europe.
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat was different than many US trained horses in terms of his versatility - very few were able to win from so many different positions and on different surfaces. He was intelligent and learned quickly, and I believe he would have done well at the Arc. Turcotte actually felt Sec was better on grass, just from his two big wins on this surface (one at 1 1/2, the other at 1 5/8). European races just weren't considered much back then, and rarely these days in the US. cont.
@rcschumann You say European races " just weren't considered much back then. " By whom ? The insular Americans, per chance? While the Epsom Derby was considered the most popular and biggest race on the British flat racing calendar, the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe, for three year olds and upwards ( fillies and colts ) was ( back then ) - and still is - considered the pre-eminent middle distance horse race in the world, not just in Europe. US horses don't compete because they'd get smashed.
@ThefightingCelt My previous view on the Arc was wrong. Americans don't bother going to some frog race in a country that eats its horses after its done with them, and that's sponsored by some dirty ragheads. Everything is here - the numerous Breeders Cup races and other big G1 events. Great US horses who won major races on turf like Sec and Red Giant would have killed at the Arc, but why travel to some shit horse-eating country? I shall not read another word you write, you lowlife Scotsman.
@rcschumann Sums you up perfectly. You have proved that your knowledge of world horse racing and the history of the "sport of kings" is limited, just like your vocabulary. Like all individuals who know that they are losing the argument, you resort to juvenile retorts - even allowing for the fact that enough time had elapsed in order for you to come back with some half baked response in defence of your mickey mouse US dirt racing, We don't do BUTE & LASIX in Europe - they are prohibited here.
@ThefightingCelt I think even if Penny considered the Arc, she seemed very protective of her colt, especially after that massive syndication deal! She wouldn't risk a long, arduous trip. The Arc is one of the greatest races in the world, and it would have been great to watch Sec run there. If you consider the stamina he displayed in easily winning races at or over 1 1/4 miles, his dominating performances on turf, and his know-how on the track, I believe he would have triumphed in France.
@ThefightingCelt I just would like to counter your statement about Secretariat's breeding. He didn't achieve what he did "inspite" of his breeding, but because of it, as his damsire, Princequillo, was noted for his stamina. So you see, Secretariat had that lethal combination of speed AND stamina, and displayed it at Belmont, at the Derby, at the Canadian International Stakes on turf (1 5/8 miles at the time) and in sprint and mile races like the Gotham Stakes.
@rcschumann Of course Grandsire's can have an influence but, the consensus among many American racing journalists and racing " experts " prior to Big Red's 3 year old career was that he was unlikely to stay the Derby trip, let alone the mile and a half at Belmont. This considered view was solely due to his speedy sire. Therefore, it is a little disingenuous to suggest ( in hindsight ) that Princequillo's influence was the pre-determining factor for Secretariat's ability to stay the distance.
@ThefightingCelt One more thing: did Sea Bird ever make such a "suicidal move" (Andy Beyer) as Secretariat did at Preakness, when he went from last to first early in the race, passing horses like they were standing still? Was Sea Bird as versatile as Secretariat on the track? The latter won from the inside, giving up huge ground on the outside, on the lead, from far back, in between horses. He proved his three losses at 3 were flukes by killing the field and setting records after each loss.
@rcschumann You still miss the point entirely. I have already pointed out that all American horse races are run on flat, left-handed oval courses. Secretariat was bred for speed, being by Bold Ruler. The fact that he won the triple crown was inspite of his breeding, not because of it. European and American racing is very different. As for Sea-Bird, he won his races without over exerting himself. He made it look so very easy on turf courses against the world's finest.
rscarbo, how many more times must you be told in order to grasp what is being told to you ? Times of horse races in Europe are not significant and are no gauge of a racehorse's true ability. What was so exciting about this race ( the 1965 Prix De L'Arc de Triomphe - Europe's top mile and a half race ) was that it is that it brought together all the world's best middle distance racehorse's of that era - including Preakness Stakes winner, Tom Rolfe, who finished 6th. The ground was good to soft.
@addyginsh A few years ago, Timeform compiled an all time international list in an attempt to gauge the merits of Secretariat against the other world greats, past and present. They studied his career in great depth and checked all his form lines and those of the horses he raced against. They used the same set of impartail criteria, where upon awarding him a figure of 144, equalling that given to Brigadier Gerard ( w17 from 18 ), and one pound behind Sea Bird, who remains on top with 145.
@ThefightingCelt I cannot find any such information about Timeform giving Secretariat a 144 rating. You will not tell were to find the source. What was so exciting about this race anyway? Sea Bird was getting tired at the end. When a horse steers off to the right or left is the best sign he is wondering. Big Red stuck to the rail like glue and had plenty left for more. Now thats what I call 'Stamina'.A 1:37 3/5 gallop out time for the 1 5/8 mile almost faster than Sea Bird 1:36.5 1 1/2 mile.
@addyginsh BTW were is the source that gave Secretariat a 144 Timeform rating. How could they since he never ran over on them tracks? Its just another scam trying to convince some that Sea Bird was a better horse in which who would believe such garbage.
@addyginsh What other horse had better stamina than Big Red? You mean to tell me if Sea Bird II ran a flat course & ran fractions like Secretariat did he would have not collapsed in the strecth to run a 2:24 1 1/2 mile? This was a performance he did by racing only himself. If he had competition to spur him on he would have ran it faster.Name all of the the greats from the past & none came close to what he did. Not even taken a whip to his ass. What would be Sea Bird's Beyer rating be? Cont.
@addyginsh Andy Beyer quote 7th Oct. 2010. In the early 1970s I had begun to embrace the philosophy that horses are best defined by how fast they run, and I had begun to calculate the speed figures that, two decades later, would be incorporated into every thoroughbred's record in the Daily Racing Form. End of quote. Don't tell me 'Times' don't mean anything. Do you know more than Beyer. 'Common Sense'. Does the French have any?
@addyginsh I wonder how that works rating Secretariat 144 Timeform and he never raced on those tracks over the pond. What would be Sea Bird's Beyer rating? The publishers of Timeform said add 12 to 14 to the Beyer figure to get the Timeform.rating. The Belmont was not a handicap race in the first place. So I guess Seab Bird handicap rating of 145 still stands and in no way means he was better than Secretariat in which we all know he wasn't.
@addyginsh Secretariat was not rated below Sea Bird. Only in you dreams. There was nothing Sea Bird ever did that came close to what Secretariat did and you know it. This is one of the best jokes I have ever encounted in my entire life.
@addyginsh ,and after he passed the finish line he was eased another eighth in 1:48. "I couldn't believe the time," Laurin said after the colt had been cooled out, fed, and put away for the day...End of quote. What makes you think Secretariat would had to struggle going uphill? Could Sea Bird run a 2:24 Belmont? Could he run a 1:59 2/5 Derby. Could he run a 1:34 flat workout in 'MUD'. The answer is hell 'NO'. No way Sea Bird had the stamina Secretariat did.. You are only dreaming.
@addyginsh I quarantte you that you are full of shit. Teddy Cox March 29th 1 day before his 3rd birthday. Quote: With Turcotte aboard carring 130 bs He was jogged the wrong way around, a maneuver designed to keep him from running off, and broke off at the mile pole, after which he moved along in rhythmic, methodical style and caused many to wonder if he was going at more than a two-minute clip. His fractions were :24 3/5, :48, 1:11 4/5, 1:23 4/5, Cont.
All of SEC's losses were down to the jockey or illness.That horse should never have been beaten.Timeform is clearly biased just as Beyer is.I'm neither American nor European so I have no agenda when I say there will never be another horse like the big red colt from Meadow Stable.
Well,I'm not American but anyone denying that Secretariat is the greatest racehorse of all time is either wearing blinkers or is too immersed in European racing.Seabird was a legend,top five of all time for sure,but Big Red was something that will never come again...the best of the best.I'm not obsessed by times,SEC only holds one WR.I watch him race or in the paddock and I get goosebumps..whether its the miracle at Belmont or his acceleration on the 1st turn at Preakness.He was INCREDIBLE.
OK,almost everything is subjective but no horse has ever run 2:24 for 1.5m.Thats a world record that wont ever be beaten.Pls remember that SEC always broke last,always toyed with the competition and was never ridden on.So there was even more in the bank!TOP FIVE racehorses of all time:
1.SECRETARIAT 2.MAN O'WAR 3.SEA BIRD 4.RIBOT 5.PHAR LAP
@147ard Yes but thats turf,much slicker than dirt.No horse has come closer than 2 seconds(12 lengths) to SEC's 2"24 on dirt.Its tough to compare US to Euro horseracing but some horses(SEC & MOW) stand up to any comparison,even the great Sea Bird.Pls also remember that SEC never raced as a 4 yr old.
@rananim3 Americans are too fascinated by race times. Hawkster holds the 1m4f world record at 2m 22 4/5 on the turf at Santa Anita. Does that make him the greatest 12furlong horse ever? Of course not. European races are ridden very differently and over a huge variety of tracks. There is no doubt Secretariat was a great horse, but he was still beaten 5 times in his 21 races. Seabird's only loss was his first outing and totally down to the jockey, it's on youtube. Timeform is definitely correct.
@rananim3 Big Red did not always break last. He did not always toy with the opposition ( he lost five races during his two seasons ) and he was not effective in sloppy conditions. Sea Bird and Ribot were equally brilliant on good or soft ground conditions.
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat won in hand the Laurel Futurity by 8 lengths in slop & was 1 second off the track record. Won the Bayshore in slop winning by 4 lengths going between horses ridden out. Did not have one workout in 2 weeks & still ran a 2:26 3/5 losing to Prove Out And you tell me he was no effective in slop? Where in the hell have you been lately? You must have fallen asleep.Secretariat was never driven out in any of his victories.
@ThefightingCelt Maybe Sea Bird opponents were less effective on grass. Give me a break. Your so bias you would pick a turtle beating bugs bunny if he was from the UK. That how bias you desert rats are. Sea Birds times were so slow Secretariat could had a coffee break & still beat him. He was not even in the same class Big Red was in.
@rscarbro100 You still don't get it, do you ? Must be something to do with the American education system which precludes you from understanding something quite basic. Now pay attention : SEA BIRD WAS NOT BRITISH. He was trained exclusively in France. TIMES are not considered an important aspect of European racing as races are run on a variety of tracks - left handed, right-handed, up hill, down hill, straight, undulating etc. SEA BIRD won races ( easily ) against other horses, not stopwatches,
@ThefightingCelt You don't get it. Ever hear of 'Common Sense'? Seems like you lack some of it my good man. This race here don't seem to be much or any up hill. Whats the deal about racing clockwis or counter clockwise? This race was ran in 2:36.5 compared to Secreatriat same distance on dirt in 2:24. Give me a break. Secretariat could have ran uphill in 'MUD'all the way in less than 2:36.5. Do you know the difference in the time gaps here, Over 62 lengths my friend. Cont.
@ThefightingCelt What can to say about the competition he had running their guts out trying to catch him. How in the hell could Sea Bird make up 62 lengths on a dirt track whether it was uphill or up side down to beat Secretariat in the Belmont and Secretariat had plenty left to run a even faster time. Times don't mean anything to you bercause your horse never was that fast to run them. Remember, a slow horse will not catch a faster horse.Its called 'Common Sense'. Your unbelievable.
@rananim3 Undisputed? By whom is it undisputed ? It is nigh impossible to draw a comparison with US dirt form with that of European turf form. Timeform studied the career of Secretariat in depth, after which they allotted him a figure of 144 - one pound behind French wonder horse, Sea-a Bird. In America, Secretariat is considered one of the best of all time, though opinions vary as to whether he, Citation or Man O' War was the greatest American racehorse of all.
I see comments such as " quite a good horse" "on a par with Ghostzapper and Dubai Millenium" Are you joking he would pick up those two and carry them, Definitely the greatest racehorse(beat the champions of seven countries in the Arc.) we have seen or are likely to see, Next best is Brigadier Gerard , but he was at his best over 1mile to One and a quarter miles.
@DanielSong39 Whilst Ghostzapper and DM were nice horses neither were even in the same competition as this horse. His rating is the highest ever given to a thoroughbred. Given the quality of the horses he beat in races such as this it would be fair to say that there's perhaps never been his equal.
Without shadow of a doubt the greatest there as been. The quality of opposition that he disposed off would have won many classics in todays racing... Brilliant is an understatement...
we can never know who was the greatest even if they could all meet you couldnt guarantee some were not having an off day and the result on different courses might be different lets just enjoy all the great horses past and present
Obviously a brilliant horse but being the "greatest of all time" seems a bit over the top. He won 7 races - yes albeit in excellent company. Greatness is surely measured by perfomances over a sustained period of time, coming back from spells and performing season after season. Brilliant yes, the greatest no.
Few, if any ,horses race beyond their second season. SB, DB, STS, Nijinsky,Lammtarra are cases in point. Can you name the last classic winner or the winner of the Arc who raced as a 4-year old? I can't! It is my opinion that Sea Bird II was the greatest thoroughbred of the 20th century and whilst I cannot furnish evidence to prove my claim, no one can prove that he wasn't , can they?
This was,without any doubt , the strongest field ever assembled for the Arc, more classic winners, and what today would be Group 1 winners, contested this race than in any other Arc, and that is an undisputed fact. Sea Bird emerged from this race as the greatest racehorse of the 20th century. He is the Paramount Champion.
Sea Bird faced the best line-up ever assembled for the 65 Arc.
Handicappers, form experts and racing journalists have all examined the form of all the other horses in the race and are in agreement that the quality of horse SB faced was even better than that DB faced in 86.
Sea Bird hung left, because according to Pat Glennon, someone or something in the crowd spooked him. Like Nijinsky, he was a very highly strung horse. He was certainly not tired. Glennon even patted him on the neck.
Why was '65 a better year than '86 ? That's an honest question, by the way. On the basis of exactly WHAT evidence is '65 regarded to have been better than 1986 ? Or were they equally good years ?
What about 2009 ? (I don't think it was that special, personally)
Why did Sea Bird II hang to the left at the end like a drunkard ?
Sea Bird didn't hang to the left . Pat Glennon,his jockey,has said many ,many times that Sea Bird was 'spooked' by someone or something in the crowds lining the rails. Like many truly great racehorses SB was a highly strung animal.
FYI, Tom Rolfe did NOT win the 1965 Kentucky Derby.....Lucky Debonair did. Tom Rolfe won the '65 Preakness Stakes. So the narrator was incorrect in saying he faced 4 other Derby winners.
The commentator ( Graham Goode) never, at any time, said that Tom Rolfe won the Kentucky Derby.
He said he won The American Derby ( a different race entirely ), which he did - and The Preakness Stakes; again a different and separate race altogether.
So, he is very much correct in what he says.
Many people wrongly assume that he means the Kentucky Derby - he does not !
The American Derby is the race Tom Rolfe won. It is run annually at Arlington Park, Illinois.
Not at all. I think what makes Sea Bird's victory even more impressive is that beforehand, his Australian jockey, Pat Glennon had urged his trainer, Etienne Pollet not to run the horse, as he belive Sea Bird II had gone over the top - he was displaying real laziness on the home gallops and was just beating his lead horse - where previously he had been destroying them out of sight. Yet on the day he came alive again. Superb.
I also rate Zarkava and Peintre Celebre better than Dancing Brave.
This is a perfect example of your duplicitous argumentation : you claim in another post that you believe that Dancing Brave was one of the top 10 middle-distance horses of all time, and yet you then rate him behind Zarkava (lol) and Peintre Celebre (a bit more like it but no chance all the same). If Zarkava and Peintre Celebre were better than Dancing Brave then what is your top 10 ?
Dancing Brave was not only better than those two but he was possibly even better than Sea Bird II.
I'll quantify that by saying I believe Zarkava, and most certainly, Peintre Celebre were better Arc winners - but they only ran in France and were not tested abroad. 1. Sea Bird 11 2. Secretariat 3. Brigadier Gerard 4. Mill Reef 5. Sea The Stars 6. Nijinsky 7. Peintre Celebre 8 Zarkava 9 Dancing Brave 10. Dubai Millenium 6.
Au contraire, ComteLafon. I think Dancing Brave was a very good horse, indeed. If you have read my comments on other threads, you will see that I backed him nealry every time he ran. But, and it's a pertinent but in my eyes - he was not the pegasus or Eclipse that every 80s child makes him out to be - and certianly not the greatest European middle distance racehorse. Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Nijinsky were all superior in my opinion. DB lost twice - on left handed tracks. Food for thought ?
all I did was point out that your reference to his Santa Anita defeat was a little bit of a cheap shot. Not too many horses maintain top class form in 7 races from April to November and he clearly didn't reproduce anything like his best form. That's all. For what it's worth, I think if Harwood knew that DB stayed 12f he would have told Starkey to ride it differently and won: the left-handed bit doesn't come into it for me. But yes, Sea Bird is/was the best.
Your opinion that Sea Bird was one pace is borne out of a bias towards Dancing Brave.
Sea Bird's videos on here are in slow motion. I think you should research the career of Sea Bird II and examine the expert opinion - before making stupid, ill informed comments. Sea Bird II was different class. He had the most magnificent, effortless stride I have ever seen from any racehorse.
Btw, Dancing Brave beat Green Desert, who failed to stay a mile, but who turned into a top group one sprinter.
"He was put firmly in his place by Manilla in America, when both Guy Harwood and Pat Eddery said he was in tip top condition before hand and would definitely win. "
Bill, I don't think you sound very un-biased towards Dancing Brave there. DB didn't run his race there as you very well know.
I'm not saying you're wrong about their respective merits (in fact, I agree with you) , but if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, then don't skew the facts to suit your own opinion.
Sea Bird's Arc was run on soft ground, hence the much slower time. Dancing Brave did not have an instantaneous turn of foot as many think. He had to be wound up before hitting top gear. Sea Bird and Nijinsky could quicken in an instant.
Reliance, who finished runner-up to Sea Bird, is considered by many good judges to have been as good, if not better than most Arc winners, before or since. Sea Bird destroyed him.
Sea Bird probably has it. What a wonderful horse. It's really sad that as the years go by people forget (and the videos get grainier). I respect the handicappers' verdict : Sea Bird II is probably no.1. It's a very difficult science though.
Sorry mate, Dancing Brave would have outpaced Sea Bird.
Sea Bird was one paced, albeit a bloody good pace! But DB had an extraordinary cruising speed and could still shift up a couple of gears when it really mattered.
The sectional timing for DB in the Derby and Arc for the last 4 furlongs was just outside Group 1 pace.
Remember The Brave won the 1mile Guineas in a canter from an awsome miler in Green Desert.
I agree with much of what you say,MrPapaBill,but I'm looking at the Raceform Flat Annual for 1965 and the Arc was actually run on good ground. However looking at the Epsom Derby race analysis it says and I quote: " Led well over one furlong out,won in canter".
Furthermore, 10 of the horses who finished behind Sea Bird in the Derby went on to win 13 races between them that season. Three of the horses who finished behind Sea Bird in the Arc, Diatome, Anilin and Demi Dieul also won after the Arc
To say that Dancing Brave, or any other colt WOULD have beaten Sea Bird is sheer nonsense. This is a colt who won all his 3 yearold races and such ease and such authority that no one really knew how good he really was. He travelled with phenomenal speed ( always on the bit) and could quicken immediately when asked. Sea Bird II was an extraordinary racehorse. I probably will never see another to compare with him.
I reckon DB would have beaten Sea Bird though I don't know. What makes me believe that is simply the finishing speed of DB - Sea Bird II is not travelling as quickly as DB was at the end of his races. We can't know for sure but in order to do so we would have to know how good the relative oppositions were. Which was the better year - and how good was the next best horse in each case ? Even so, DB was a faster finisher than Sea Bird. If they couldn't outgallop him they would have lost to him imo.
Different styles of racing!! SeaBird could take it up 2 to 3f out and maintain his pace to the line.Whereas DB couldnt do that,once he'd past everything he'd pull himself up.I think his Arc win is the race where everything went to plan and he delivered.I'm to young to have seen SeaBird I wasnt even born when this race was ran but he looked extra special.I dont think you can compare different generations only the handicapper can do this and even they get it wrong.
Dont remember saying that tarqogan but why do people always try to rubbish champions?? I have my own personal favourites and neither are they SBII or DB but I'll never rubbish them or say ones better than the other.They were obviously the best horses of their generation.One horse I would love to have seen was ABERNANT who was rated a superior sprinter to DAYJUR!!! Must have been some ANIMAL!!
I obviously got the wrong end of the stick there,frankschlanker. Like you,I would NEVER rubbish the reputation of any horse irrespective from which era it emanated. Abernant was before my time too,but I do know that he was a fantastic sprinter trained by Noel Murless. I also believe that the great Tudor Minstrel was practically unbeatable over a mile. He must have been something special to have finished fourth in the Derby. I recognize and respect all those great champions.
Just to point one thing out ,zarakhast, this video is in slow motion, the horses are not travelling at the normal racing speed so consequently the overall result is that they look as if they are not racing very quickly. Believe me I have absolutely no doubt at all that Sea Bird would have taken care of Dancing Brave and any of the other horses who came after him , and that is by no means demeaning the exploits of Dancing Brave et al.
@tarqogan Who could argue, while not necessarily agreeing, with such a diplomatically put point ? Sea Bird II was undoubtedly a great horse. But this "slow motion" talk - what are you talking about exactly ? Explain ! You're pulling my leg aren't you, you devil ! Or are you trying to make a point indirectly, starting with a bit of sarcasm ?
zarakhast, I was referring to the film of Sea Bird's Arc. If you compare the speed of the film of that race with,say, Sea The Stars Arc and Dancing Brave's I think you'll find that the revolutions are very much different. I don't know what the reson for this is as I'm no expert. Perhaps ,and this is only a guess, the film of Sea Bird's Arc is of such poor quality when shown at normal speed that it is only worth watching when it is shown in slow motion. No ,zarakhast, there's no sarcasm.
I agree with you 200 per cent,MrPapaBill. I read somewhere that many racing experts consider SB ' Champion of Champions.' That just about says it all.
In nearly 50 years of having seen ALL the greats, Ribot, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Shergar, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars, I have to say that NO horse has ever travelled with such effortless fluency and won all his races as a 3-year old with such scintillating brilliance as Sea Bird. I am absolutely convinced that Sea Bird was the greatest thoroughbred that ever graced the turf and I haven't seen a racehorse yet who compares with him.
I'm not sure which would win but it would be a fantastic race to watch.
I started watching horse racing in 1986 and i've not seen a 12 furlong horse which comes anywhere near being as good as Dancing Brave was, in all the years since. But Sea Bird was, quite clearly, exceptional.
The consensus of opinion regarding the greatest middle distance performer of the past 50 years is that Sea Bird is top of the tree, I for one fully concur with that analysis. I have seen all the great European champions since 1961,and there have been many,but for me Sea Bird's wins in the1965 Derby and Arc have yet to be surpassed .
I find it hard to believe that Sea Bird is rated 145 when he only won 2 major races in between minor races, a champion has 2 prove themselves 4/5 times surely. Sea bird is all over the course at the end, reminds me of Swain in the breeders cup, was really tired.
Not a firm assertion, 21 shergar, just me running off at the mouth once again. The truth is ,my friend , I really DON'T know what the outcome of that encounter would have been over the distances mentioned between two truly exceptional racehorses.
What I can say is ,with some degree of certainty , we are long overdue a champion of the stature of a Pebbles or a Dancing Brave.
Too right, francilius, Crowded House looked special at the end of last year,so I wait with hope. We are long overdue a purple patch.
Looking back I can't believe within a period of just a few years we saw Dancing Brave, Pebbles, Mtoto, Nashwan, Dayjur, Indian Skimmer, Time Charter, Zilzal and a few more. Glorious times.
That's a daringly firm assertion, francilius. Pebbles always strikes me as one of those very few (mostly female) horses that could beat anything on their day. Her Champion Stakes brings a smile to my face every time I
PROVE OUT PROVE OUT PROVE OUT PROVE OUT ;)
MrWalto69 1 month ago
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rscarbro100 1 month ago
Took me a while to figure out what a "Darby" was
Jadervason 1 month ago
" The highest rated horse of the (20th) Century " ... Sea Bird ! " It is safe to say this was a world championship" .... " a handicap mark YET to be equalled *
ThefightingCelt 2 months ago
awesome horse a real champion. just wish the yanks would stop trashing our horses weve been breeding horses longer than they hav been a country. not saying they havnt had exceptional horses but i wish they wouldnt make out were inferior to them coz theres great horses both sides of the pond.
TheDarleyarabian 5 months ago
That was a dominating performance by SeabirdII. Even when the 2nd horse fired with 100metres left he just refired, and all under a hand ride. He still is to me the best flat horse ever. If you put Seabird in a gate with Big Red, Man O War, and NjinskyII, he would still come out on top. Pure brilliance this horse was.
TicinoParadise 6 months ago
National pride has no place in a discussion on great racehorses.Seabird was a beautiful thoroughbred.Fantastic great horse.I dont care if he was French or Finnish.Secretariat was undoubtedly the greatest most powerful horse to ever live and I dont care which country he came from.I see only the horse.I base SEC's claim to most powerful ever on his 3 TC wins all in record time and his move on the first turn of the Preakness(never seen a horse accelerate like that).
rananim3 7 months ago
@doublearpeggio I noticed you closed your account recently, not long after I was following a debate between you and some fool on the Kentucky Derby vid - you shouldn't let people's stupidity get to you. I enjoyed your informative comments, including on this thread, and hope you will come back soon. Regarding your latest post here, I agree - Secretariat had the most devastating acceleration of any horse I've seen. Sea Bird was brilliant too...thanks to his grandsire, Native Dancer!
rcschumann 7 months ago
@doublearpeggio Exceller actually had more success in the States, and on dirt ! He defeated the great Seattle Slew. A fair percentage of European trained horses are American bred - but as I pointed out, those American stallions themselves mainly descended from a European/British lineage. I know how good Secretariat was - I watched him win the Belmont in 1973. He was a relentless galloper. I still maintain that he did not have the instantaneous turn of speed that Sea Bird or Nijinsky possessed.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat was a relentless galloper who would have taken all the sting out of Sea Bird's end acceleration. Over 5 furlongs, Sea Bird may well have been faster. Any longer distance and he'd be running for second place behind Secretariat.
eckythimble 2 months ago
@doublearpeggio Whether those horse you mention could have won an Arc is merely merely supposition and conjecture. It is just as tough for a European horse to win on US classic or major race on dirt as it is for an American horse to win a Group race over here on grass ( turf ). That said, many more Europeans have crossed the pond than vice versa. Exceller, previously trained in France ( on turf ) made the transition to dirt, as did JO Tobin, once trained by Noel Murless (H. Cecil's dad in law )
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@doublearpeggio I would love to have seen the likes of Zenyatta come over and test her mettle against Europe's finest. The Australians and Japanese are more inclined to send theri horses over. I think dirt is a specialist surface and one which the better American horses are more accustomed to, so why bother racing against Europe's best on a surface (grass) which is alien to them. Another consideration is the prize money. American prize money is invariably higher, so why bother, they might say.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt The US trained horses don't race in Europe becuase the tracks are turf and very steep, unlike those flat, left handed ones they have in the US, imagine some of their horses, running on a right handed, steep course like Goodwood, Ascot or Longchamp?
MrAddyginsh 5 months ago
@MrAddyginsh and racing without drugs
john131349 4 months ago
@MrAddyginsh Second tier US horse, Hill Rise, was sent to the UK in '66 and won the QEII Stakes with some ease, later being named Champion UK Miler for that year. Tom Rolfe, who's not even in the US top 100, placed 6th in the '65 Arc, beating many a Euro specialist in that race, in what may have been the strongest field ever. Imagine if top US turf winners like Secretariat, Damascus and Buckpasser were sent to UK/Europe. Native Dancer was all set to go but got injured. cont...
rcschumann 2 months ago
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rcschumann 2 months ago
@MrAddyginsh To continue: regarding John's "drugs" comment, I already debunked it on another thread, when I mentioned horses like Cigar, Curlin and Well Armed winning the Dubai World Cup drug free. Cigar is an example of a horse who was just as devastating with and without Lasix. Alysheba killed the field at the G1 Woodward drug free, his trainer wanting to prove a point. Sec relied only on monster (legendary) workouts before races to get that huge heart of his (X-Factor) in shape.
rcschumann 2 months ago
@MrAddyginsh The UK Triple Crown are the 2000 Guinaes Stakes, Epson Derby and the St. Legir Stakes. All are group 1 'Flat' races on 'Turf'.In case anyone that don't know 'FLAT' means 'LEVEL'. The mighty SeaBird ran that Epsom 1 1/2 mile Derby in 2:38.41. Secretariat won the 1 1/2 mile Belmont 'FLAT' course in 2:24 and gallop Out another furlong in 2:37 3/5. Secretariat just ran a 1 5/8 mile Galloping Out faster than SeaBird ran a 1 1/2 mile. Case closed.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 Firstly the UK Triple Crown consists of the 2000 GUINEAS, the EPSOM DERBY, and the ST LEGER, secondly FLAT racing doesn't mean that the courses are flat, all flat means is that the races are run with no obstacles to jump. So the whole Sec is the greatest ever is rampant speculation, and when have I said SeaBird was the best ever or indeed better than Sec? We can talk all day long, but the only way to find out who's better, is for the 2 to race each other. CASE CLOSED.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh With all due respect my friend. I am very aware of the 3 races that makes up the UK TC. I am also aware that some of the European tracks have a slighty up hill grade but it always followed to the finish line with a down hill grade. Yet it may be slower than a Belmont track but surely it is not nowhere over 1/8 of a mile slower. If so then it is an obstacle course with many barriers to conquer. They had to remove some of those barriers when Worforce ran it in 2:31.33.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 Well, times are a factor in how well races are won and how great a horse is, but there are horses who have won races in a record time, and they are not amongst the best to have won the races, e.g. take Danedream the 2011 Arc winner, ran it in a record 2:24.49, but take horses like SeaBird, Mill Reef, Sea the Stars and Dancing Brave, not the fastest times but these horses is far superior to Danedream, but it would have been great to see Sec run the Arc, cont.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh That point many times had been brought to attention but you fail to realize this does happen only once in a while. There are several factors why they did run a extraordinary fast race. Not so with Secretariat and some other greats. Look at his Gotham 1:33 2/5 time & its a fact he had tons of problems in that race with his breathing as explain 'To the Swift' by Red Smith. The Derby still all these yrs. not broken. Ran every quarter faster than the previous. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh That is totally unheard off by any old time track horseman for a 1 1/4 mile & running the last quarter in 23 flat & possilby 22 4/5 as said by Bill Christine. The Preakness only ties in all these yrs. We all know about the Belmont & Red Smith again 'To the Swift said if asked by Turcotte he would have broken the World Record' which was 2:23 flat at that time on turf by Fiddle Isle. 1/5 off the track record at Arlington were the track was running deep. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Besides Secretariat was not set on a fast pace by Turcotte & was not going for a track record. The Marlboro Race was probably his best ever. With only 4 workouts in 2 wks. coming off a serious illness he set a WR taking the long route. Not only that he was clocked in 1:57 4/5 'Pulling Up' at the 1 1/4 post. His Man 0' War race is still a record at Belmont Park on turf. He was not a one race 'Wonder'.like Danedream and many others. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh All the records he broke was done taking the long route except for the Gotham and Belmont. He was never 'Driven Out' in a race. He last workout 3 days before the Woodbine was the fastest any old time track horseman could ever remember at that track. I can give you the URL of Secretariat PP's. of his workouts. They were amazing setting records and setting them 'Pulling Up'. On March 14, 1973 not yet a 3 yr. old ran a 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds. A WR at that time.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh One of those quarters was ran in 21 1/5 seconds only 2/5 off the World record. He ran a 1 mile workout a week before the Whitney race in 'MUD' in fractions of 45 2/5, 1:09 2/5, 1:21 3/5 and 1:34 for the mile.Steve Haskins the source. It was a record at that time at Saratoga. No horse in all them yrs. had ever ran it in less than 1:34 2/5 there. He was eased another furlong in 1:47 3/5 another record at that track. I am sure you get my point my good man.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 When I mentioned horses who won racrs in record time, but not the best horse to win the race, with Sec, he was consistent in his workouts too and set record times, and indeed fractions in 2 of the 3 US TC races, that certainly proves your theory. But my only doubt is would he have won the Arc, I say this because, while he achieved what he did, and in the manner that he did, he did lose 5 times, so with most horses he was beatable, though it was really difficult. Cont.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Watch his maiden race my good man. Clearly you can see why he lost. The other loss as a 2 yr. old was from disquaification. Yet he won the race.Even the experts knew it would not had make a difference. If Seabird had a quarter size abscess at the bit I doubt he could win or any horse for that matter. It is well documented by bloodhorse he was sick before the Whitney and no workouts before the Woodard. Of couse the Secretariat haters will not accept that. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 If Sec was so much better than European the horses at that time, he would have been sent over for the Arc. Why do you think Australia send so many sprinters to Royal Ascot, to run in the Golden Jubilee or the Kings Stand stakes? because they believe they have the best sprinters, this I also believe to be true, in Europe we believe we have the best middle distance horses, especially on Turf, hence the reason so many of our horses go the Breeders Cup each year. Cont.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 Why did they wait til 1984, to inaugurate the Breeders Cup? Wish it could have been inaugurate sooner. It would have been fascinating to see Sec against Europe's elite at the time, there is no doubt Europe's horses would have loved a crack at him, though chances are it would have been one sided, especially at Kentucky Downs or Belmont Park.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Read Bloodhorse editor Steve Hakins article the unbeatable horse. He said he should have not been entered into them races. No workouts for 2 wks. before the Woodard he still ran a 2:26 3/5 time on a 'Sloppy' track.. That was the record time before Secretariat broke it in the Belmont by 2 3/5 seconds. Would you say that was pretty amazing? He was already sold for 6 million dollars before he was 3. In no way Penny would risk taking him to Europe. Would you?
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh He was blowing very hard after the Woodward race. Turcotte said he was only good to go a 1 1/8 mile. His workout before the Wood was very bad. Couldn 't kick bim to go. Very poor workout 3 days before the Whitney and he lost. He beat Angle Light 2 or 3 times before he lost to him. In the next race after the Wood Big Red beat him by over 12 lengths in the Derby And beat Onion in their race after the Whitney by 12 lengths carrying 7 lbs more in a world record time. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Every good workout before a race Secretariat never lost. One week later after the Woodward with a few workous he won the Man 0' War race in track record time that still stands today at Belmont Park And it was his first race on turf still not in top form. You don't get in top form in one week. I know SeaBird lost one race as a 2yr. old. Don't know the reason why but may had very good explanation. If so I will accept it. For Secretariat haters their is never an excuse.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh All of the triple crown races Secretariat was fit and sound as a horse could be. And how did he perform. A Derby record that still stands today. A Preakness record that only has been tied twice and a World Record Belmont in which no horse has came within 10 lengths of him as of today. Its not just the time he did in the Belmont. The most remarkable thing about it he ran that race in fractions no horse ever came close to in just a hand ride. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh After that Belmont race with those ever so fast fractions he was no where blowing like he was after the Woodard race. Woodie Broun said after the race he was not tired and looked like he was ready to go another trip. Bloodhorse Kent Hollingsworth said he done it without raising a sweat. Do you believe SeaBird could have won this race with no workouts in 2 full wks for a 1 1/2 mile race? I honestly believe he could not and I can very well understand why he couldn't.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Every quarter fractions in the Belmont he ran was a record for the Belmont Stakes ever except the first quarter. He went through the 1 3/8 post in 2:11 2/5 seconds. Source Daily Racing Forum Charles Hatton. Thats faster than Man 0' War time in his Belmont vStakes ictory in 2:14 1/5. Faster than the offical World Record as of today which is 2:12 2/5 by Dem's Bret carrying 116 lbs. His mile time fraction was 1:34 1/5. Man 0' War WR time was 1:35 4/5 carrying 118 lbs.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 Well we don't know for sure, if SeaBird couldn't have done it, but if he could have, the fractions and indeed overall times wouldn't have been as good, in my opinion, but like I said before, all we can do is speculate and give our honest opinions. But it could be a case of Europe, on the whole, has the best middle distance horses, however Secretariat is the single best middle distance horse? Just a thought.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh How true my good man but we aslo can only speculate if a turle can beat a rabbit since they never went head to head in a race. Is that not true? Nor can we only speculate whether a race horse could beat a Cheetah. Another, I guess we never know if Jesse Owens could have beaten Usian Bolt because they never race. I think we as men can make a pretty darn good guess by the horses past performances of what they are capable of.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh At what distance do you call a middle distance horse? Do you know the fractions SeaBird had in this race and most important his last 1/4 mile fraction?
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 The fractions, admittedly aren't as good as Sec's, but I think it's about how the horses are run, Sec a ruthless powerful galloper, SeaBird is simply bred to stay the distance and win the race, and no more, which is commonplace amongst most of Europe's horses, in my opinion. I don't know how other countries define middle distance but in Europe we define 5f - 6f as sprints, 7f - 14f as middle distance, and 15f or more as long distance.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Secretariat ran from the back in most of his races. Circle the filed and blew them away down the strecth. In the Belmont he proved he could do it the other way. That is take to the front and hold it to the end destroying horses with those fast fractions way before the finish only with a hand ride. Can you imagine a horse after running a mile had the strength to run the last 1/4 mile in 23 or possibly 22 4/5 sec.as Bill Christine explained?
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh The late Chrales Hatton a 45 yr. vteran for the Daily Racing forum had seen most of all the great American horses since Man 0' War clearly said Secretariat was the horse of the century and was the most capable of them all. That is a hell of a lot of horses that were foaled and ran since Man 0' War. As you know no other country has foaled nowhere near the numbers Amercia did. Many other old time horseman felt Secretariat the best that seen both MOW & Secretariat.Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh The trainer of the K.Y Derby winner in 1916 who had seen more than Hatton said the same. His name is Hollie Hudges. I have never read where any horseman that has seen both thought Man 0' War was best. Beleive me I am not 'Bias. I do not care where Secretariat came from. Still he would have done what he did. I have never seen any horse that put up the numbers like Big Red did in such a short time.If this horse could not blow someone's mind then what other horse did?
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh With all due respect to SeaBird my friend I absolutely cannot see anything he did to justify or indicate that he was capable to run against a horse like Secretariat. If so I would love for someone to explain it to me.If SeaBird even came close to putting up the numbers Big Red did believe me it would get my attention big time standing up with my eyes bigger than a saucer without a doubt.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 I think it's hard to say what SeaBird at full throttle could have done, as it wasn't really his style. In the Arc, the Epsom Derby, and the Grand prix de Saint Cloud, he coasted on the bit and just casually strolled up to clinch the victory, with a few lengths in hand, granted it was never 31 lengths, but he wasn't what you call " a machine", just a fighting champion. His reputation came about by beating fields with a strong calibre, especially the Arc field of 1965.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Tom Rolfe won only 3 major races in 1965, They were the American Derby, Arlington Inv. & the Preakness. Them 3 races was good enough to earn him 3 yr. old horse of the yr. That can tell you pretty much the competition he had in 1965, Only won 6 major races in his 3 yr. career. The only achivements I can find that Reliance had was he won the French Derby and for Anilin he only won the Russian Derby.I would not have found them if I did not look into Seabird record. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Did any expert Hoseman ever said SeaBird never ran at full throttle? Did they ever say he just casually strolled to clinch a victory or its it only a opinion by some? Talk is cheap proving it is another thing. Believe me my talk is cheap too unless I can back it up with credible sources. Lets remember Secretariat was never ridden out in a race. I will tell you the statements make by expert horseman on Secretariat Belmont Stakes run. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Lets start with the jockey Pat Day. He said he won it with the minimum of encouragement. Sportswriter Red Smith said if asked by Turcotte he would have broken the WR set by Fiddle Isle in 1970 running a 2:23 flat on turf at Santa Anita race track. Bloodhorse editor at the time Kent Hollingsworth said he won it without raising a sweat. Chic Anderson said Turcotte did nothing but hand ride him. Some pretty good horseman to back up my claim he was not at full throttle.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Turcotte said right here on youtube he was just gallping in the Belmont and if really got into him down the stretch it would be hard telling what he would have done. As you might have already seen we got the severe mental retarded Secretariat hater as our vistor. Be careful and don't make him mad who will will talk shit about you mom. He don't take DRF or Bloodhorse as proof of anything. He goes off like a wild monkey when mad.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh Lets take a close look at Secretariat competition he ran against in the Marlboro Cup. All were older horses. Riva Rige winner of the Derby & Belmont. Still hold WR for the 1 3/16 mile. He also broke the WR in the Marlboro Cup 1:46 flat. Eclipse award at 2 and 4 yrs. old. Set 4 track records. Kennedy Road 5 time Canadian Champion. His trainer Clarke Whitaker said he was one of the best Canada ever produced.Secretariat beat 2 multiple champions in these two. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
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rscarbro100 1 month ago
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rscarbro100 1 month ago
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@MrAddyginsh Riva Ridge 127 lbs, Cougar ll 126 & Secretariat carried 124. SI Whitney Tower said they were true weight to age. Matter of fact Secretariat was 5 lbs better than R.R.as racing secretary Kenny Noe stated. Cougar ll was a turf champion in 1972 & was trained by Charley Whittingham & trained Sunday Silence as well. Wille Shoemaker called Cougar a runnin son of a gun. He was ranked as one of the top horses in the country on turf & dirt in 1971, 72 & 73 by the DRF.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
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@MrAddyginsh Cougar beat Ft.Marcy who was the 1970 horse of the year. Ft. Marcy beat Damascus by 1 1/2 lengths & was only 2 1/2 lengths back of the Dr. Fager. Cougar ran the Oak Tree Inv. on turf in 2:24 3/5. Ran the 2nd fastest 1 1/16 ever in 1:39 1/5. Thats just 1/5 slower than Swaps WR of 1:39 flat. Riva Ridge was voted 57th best of all time by Bloodhorse panelist. Cougar also tied the WR in the M.C. in 1:46 1/5. I will let you decide whether Secretariat competition was better.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@MrAddyginsh I forgot to mention Key to the Mint the 4th champion he beat in the Marlboro Cup. He was champion horse of the yr. in 1972. He ran a 1:33 3/5 mile at Belmont Park in 1973. Also Andy Beyer said Secretariat was not in the same form as he was in his Triple Crown races. Laurin said he would liked another week of training. He had only 4 workouts in 2 wks in where he had 6 each for the Derby, Preakness & Belmont.
rscarbro100 1 month ago
@rscarbro100 Another example of my point would be the 2010 King George VI stakes, won by Harbinger, in 2:26.8, but horses like Ribot, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, and the horse who in many peoples opinion is the best miler ever, the awesome Brigadier Gerard, are much superior. This is why this sport is so great, we can debate, speculate, make logical arguments, and give valid opinions, but we're talking about what would hypothetically happen if the horses raced each other.
MrAddyginsh 1 month ago
@doublearpeggio Tom Rolfe also won The American Derby, which was regarded as big event at that time. He was also rated and voted America's top three year old that year. The horse which won overall American horse of the year ( 1965 ) was a very good colt by the name of Roman Brother ; who went onto to compete in the Washington International that year. That particular race was won by Diatome. Yes, the very same Diatome whom Sea Bird had defeated three times already that season - once in the Arc.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@doublearpeggio The "mickey mouse" remark was said tongue firmly in cheek. I am also well aware of the influence of the North American breeds have had - particularly in recent decades. Go further back and see who they descended from.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
Secretariat's 144 rating can be found be found in Tony Morris's excellent book, " A Century Of Champions "
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I checked out Timeform on Wiki and Sec's supposed "rating" was not mentioned, since they were not given for that period - Sec would have gotten at least 150 for his Belmont. And even if Morris mentioned some figure in his book, it doesn't mean anything. Did Sea Bird ever win a race by going each 1/4 mile faster than the previous one, from start to finish? That's was Sec did at Derby and Belmont. cont.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt The way Secretariat won those two races, especially Belmont, has nothing to do with "times of horse races", but with unique and umatched ability on the track - he was still accelerating when he hit the wire at Belmont, at the end of a 1 1/2 mile race in very hot conditions. Sea Bird, on the other hand, appeared to be tiring at the end of the Arc after running the same distance. Sec won on both dirt AND grass, and was the superior racehorse without a doubt.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann A mile and half round Belmont on brick hard ground is much easier than a mile and half around Longchamps undulating turf course on good to soft ground. If you watch Sea Bird closely you will see that, although he jinks left, his jockey is only riding hands and heels and actually quickens again when he realises the previously undefeated Reliance is making rapid headway on him. Allen Jerkins, trainer of Prove Out and Onion said that Citation was superior to Secretariat.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Actually if you watch that Jerkins video again (the user is NYRAvideo), he says that he doesn't feel Secretariat was greater than Citation, and maybe not even than Spectacular Bid. He doesn't say Cy was greater, because he doesn't want to look foolish. Anyway, that is just one man's opinion, based on the fact that his horses beat Sec. But he doesn't mention that Sec killed Onion at the Marlboro, and blasted the field at MOW (1st time on turf) after losing to Prove Out. cont.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Sec was underprepared for the Woodward when he lost to Prove Out, having been training for the MOW on turf a week later. He subbed at the last minute for Riva Ridge who was poor on the slop (he failed at Preakness). Sec was ill with fever when he lost to Onion at the Whitney, and proved the loss was a fluke by blasting SIX champion older horses, including Onion at the Marlboro a short time later. Sec was greater than Cy, imo - if Jerkins feels he wasn't, that's his opinion.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Regarding Sec's performance at Belmont, it doesn't matter what the surface was in the race - I know surface affects overall speed, but it was the MANNER in which he won, posting faster and faster 1/4 fractions throughout the race, in blistering hot conditions. No horse has ever won a race like that. No horse has ever won in so many different ways. If Tom Rolfe (only one major win in his career) could place 6th at the Arc, what would two-time G1 turf winner Sec have done?
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann Had Lucien Lauren and Mrs Chenery really wanted to test Secretariat, they could have sent him over for the 1973 Prix De L' Arc de Triomphe in Paris. The chose the much easier Canadian International instead. Now, if I had owned the supposed greatest colt of that year, I would have had no hesitation in sending him over to prove to those Europeans that he was just that. It was probably a very wise decision not to travel given the previous record of US trained horses raced in Europe.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat was different than many US trained horses in terms of his versatility - very few were able to win from so many different positions and on different surfaces. He was intelligent and learned quickly, and I believe he would have done well at the Arc. Turcotte actually felt Sec was better on grass, just from his two big wins on this surface (one at 1 1/2, the other at 1 5/8). European races just weren't considered much back then, and rarely these days in the US. cont.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann You say European races " just weren't considered much back then. " By whom ? The insular Americans, per chance? While the Epsom Derby was considered the most popular and biggest race on the British flat racing calendar, the Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe, for three year olds and upwards ( fillies and colts ) was ( back then ) - and still is - considered the pre-eminent middle distance horse race in the world, not just in Europe. US horses don't compete because they'd get smashed.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt My previous view on the Arc was wrong. Americans don't bother going to some frog race in a country that eats its horses after its done with them, and that's sponsored by some dirty ragheads. Everything is here - the numerous Breeders Cup races and other big G1 events. Great US horses who won major races on turf like Sec and Red Giant would have killed at the Arc, but why travel to some shit horse-eating country? I shall not read another word you write, you lowlife Scotsman.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann Sums you up perfectly. You have proved that your knowledge of world horse racing and the history of the "sport of kings" is limited, just like your vocabulary. Like all individuals who know that they are losing the argument, you resort to juvenile retorts - even allowing for the fact that enough time had elapsed in order for you to come back with some half baked response in defence of your mickey mouse US dirt racing, We don't do BUTE & LASIX in Europe - they are prohibited here.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I think even if Penny considered the Arc, she seemed very protective of her colt, especially after that massive syndication deal! She wouldn't risk a long, arduous trip. The Arc is one of the greatest races in the world, and it would have been great to watch Sec run there. If you consider the stamina he displayed in easily winning races at or over 1 1/4 miles, his dominating performances on turf, and his know-how on the track, I believe he would have triumphed in France.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I just would like to counter your statement about Secretariat's breeding. He didn't achieve what he did "inspite" of his breeding, but because of it, as his damsire, Princequillo, was noted for his stamina. So you see, Secretariat had that lethal combination of speed AND stamina, and displayed it at Belmont, at the Derby, at the Canadian International Stakes on turf (1 5/8 miles at the time) and in sprint and mile races like the Gotham Stakes.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann Of course Grandsire's can have an influence but, the consensus among many American racing journalists and racing " experts " prior to Big Red's 3 year old career was that he was unlikely to stay the Derby trip, let alone the mile and a half at Belmont. This considered view was solely due to his speedy sire. Therefore, it is a little disingenuous to suggest ( in hindsight ) that Princequillo's influence was the pre-determining factor for Secretariat's ability to stay the distance.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
@ThefightingCelt One more thing: did Sea Bird ever make such a "suicidal move" (Andy Beyer) as Secretariat did at Preakness, when he went from last to first early in the race, passing horses like they were standing still? Was Sea Bird as versatile as Secretariat on the track? The latter won from the inside, giving up huge ground on the outside, on the lead, from far back, in between horses. He proved his three losses at 3 were flukes by killing the field and setting records after each loss.
rcschumann 9 months ago
@rcschumann You still miss the point entirely. I have already pointed out that all American horse races are run on flat, left-handed oval courses. Secretariat was bred for speed, being by Bold Ruler. The fact that he won the triple crown was inspite of his breeding, not because of it. European and American racing is very different. As for Sea-Bird, he won his races without over exerting himself. He made it look so very easy on turf courses against the world's finest.
ThefightingCelt 9 months ago
rscarbo, how many more times must you be told in order to grasp what is being told to you ? Times of horse races in Europe are not significant and are no gauge of a racehorse's true ability. What was so exciting about this race ( the 1965 Prix De L'Arc de Triomphe - Europe's top mile and a half race ) was that it is that it brought together all the world's best middle distance racehorse's of that era - including Preakness Stakes winner, Tom Rolfe, who finished 6th. The ground was good to soft.
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@addyginsh A few years ago, Timeform compiled an all time international list in an attempt to gauge the merits of Secretariat against the other world greats, past and present. They studied his career in great depth and checked all his form lines and those of the horses he raced against. They used the same set of impartail criteria, where upon awarding him a figure of 144, equalling that given to Brigadier Gerard ( w17 from 18 ), and one pound behind Sea Bird, who remains on top with 145.
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt I cannot find any such information about Timeform giving Secretariat a 144 rating. You will not tell were to find the source. What was so exciting about this race anyway? Sea Bird was getting tired at the end. When a horse steers off to the right or left is the best sign he is wondering. Big Red stuck to the rail like glue and had plenty left for more. Now thats what I call 'Stamina'.A 1:37 3/5 gallop out time for the 1 5/8 mile almost faster than Sea Bird 1:36.5 1 1/2 mile.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh BTW were is the source that gave Secretariat a 144 Timeform rating. How could they since he never ran over on them tracks? Its just another scam trying to convince some that Sea Bird was a better horse in which who would believe such garbage.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh What other horse had better stamina than Big Red? You mean to tell me if Sea Bird II ran a flat course & ran fractions like Secretariat did he would have not collapsed in the strecth to run a 2:24 1 1/2 mile? This was a performance he did by racing only himself. If he had competition to spur him on he would have ran it faster.Name all of the the greats from the past & none came close to what he did. Not even taken a whip to his ass. What would be Sea Bird's Beyer rating be? Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh Andy Beyer quote 7th Oct. 2010. In the early 1970s I had begun to embrace the philosophy that horses are best defined by how fast they run, and I had begun to calculate the speed figures that, two decades later, would be incorporated into every thoroughbred's record in the Daily Racing Form. End of quote. Don't tell me 'Times' don't mean anything. Do you know more than Beyer. 'Common Sense'. Does the French have any?
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh I wonder how that works rating Secretariat 144 Timeform and he never raced on those tracks over the pond. What would be Sea Bird's Beyer rating? The publishers of Timeform said add 12 to 14 to the Beyer figure to get the Timeform.rating. The Belmont was not a handicap race in the first place. So I guess Seab Bird handicap rating of 145 still stands and in no way means he was better than Secretariat in which we all know he wasn't.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh Secretariat was not rated below Sea Bird. Only in you dreams. There was nothing Sea Bird ever did that came close to what Secretariat did and you know it. This is one of the best jokes I have ever encounted in my entire life.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh ,and after he passed the finish line he was eased another eighth in 1:48. "I couldn't believe the time," Laurin said after the colt had been cooled out, fed, and put away for the day...End of quote. What makes you think Secretariat would had to struggle going uphill? Could Sea Bird run a 2:24 Belmont? Could he run a 1:59 2/5 Derby. Could he run a 1:34 flat workout in 'MUD'. The answer is hell 'NO'. No way Sea Bird had the stamina Secretariat did.. You are only dreaming.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@addyginsh I quarantte you that you are full of shit. Teddy Cox March 29th 1 day before his 3rd birthday. Quote: With Turcotte aboard carring 130 bs He was jogged the wrong way around, a maneuver designed to keep him from running off, and broke off at the mile pole, after which he moved along in rhythmic, methodical style and caused many to wonder if he was going at more than a two-minute clip. His fractions were :24 3/5, :48, 1:11 4/5, 1:23 4/5, Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
All of SEC's losses were down to the jockey or illness.That horse should never have been beaten.Timeform is clearly biased just as Beyer is.I'm neither American nor European so I have no agenda when I say there will never be another horse like the big red colt from Meadow Stable.
rananim3 1 year ago
Well,I'm not American but anyone denying that Secretariat is the greatest racehorse of all time is either wearing blinkers or is too immersed in European racing.Seabird was a legend,top five of all time for sure,but Big Red was something that will never come again...the best of the best.I'm not obsessed by times,SEC only holds one WR.I watch him race or in the paddock and I get goosebumps..whether its the miracle at Belmont or his acceleration on the 1st turn at Preakness.He was INCREDIBLE.
rananim3 1 year ago
OK,almost everything is subjective but no horse has ever run 2:24 for 1.5m.Thats a world record that wont ever be beaten.Pls remember that SEC always broke last,always toyed with the competition and was never ridden on.So there was even more in the bank!TOP FIVE racehorses of all time:
1.SECRETARIAT 2.MAN O'WAR 3.SEA BIRD 4.RIBOT 5.PHAR LAP
Timeform are wrong!
rananim3 1 year ago
@rananim3 2:24 is a fast time but not a world record, conduit ran the 2009 breeders cup turf in 2:23.4.
147ard 1 year ago
@147ard Yes but thats turf,much slicker than dirt.No horse has come closer than 2 seconds(12 lengths) to SEC's 2"24 on dirt.Its tough to compare US to Euro horseracing but some horses(SEC & MOW) stand up to any comparison,even the great Sea Bird.Pls also remember that SEC never raced as a 4 yr old.
rananim3 1 year ago
@rananim3 Americans are too fascinated by race times. Hawkster holds the 1m4f world record at 2m 22 4/5 on the turf at Santa Anita. Does that make him the greatest 12furlong horse ever? Of course not. European races are ridden very differently and over a huge variety of tracks. There is no doubt Secretariat was a great horse, but he was still beaten 5 times in his 21 races. Seabird's only loss was his first outing and totally down to the jockey, it's on youtube. Timeform is definitely correct.
jafeica 1 year ago
@rananim3 Big Red did not always break last. He did not always toy with the opposition ( he lost five races during his two seasons ) and he was not effective in sloppy conditions. Sea Bird and Ribot were equally brilliant on good or soft ground conditions.
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Secretariat won in hand the Laurel Futurity by 8 lengths in slop & was 1 second off the track record. Won the Bayshore in slop winning by 4 lengths going between horses ridden out. Did not have one workout in 2 weeks & still ran a 2:26 3/5 losing to Prove Out And you tell me he was no effective in slop? Where in the hell have you been lately? You must have fallen asleep.Secretariat was never driven out in any of his victories.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Maybe his opponents were even less effective on the slop ? ; )
He was great horse, no doubt, but in my opinion, Sea Bird was better.
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt Maybe Sea Bird opponents were less effective on grass. Give me a break. Your so bias you would pick a turtle beating bugs bunny if he was from the UK. That how bias you desert rats are. Sea Birds times were so slow Secretariat could had a coffee break & still beat him. He was not even in the same class Big Red was in.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
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Constance861973 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 You still don't get it, do you ? Must be something to do with the American education system which precludes you from understanding something quite basic. Now pay attention : SEA BIRD WAS NOT BRITISH. He was trained exclusively in France. TIMES are not considered an important aspect of European racing as races are run on a variety of tracks - left handed, right-handed, up hill, down hill, straight, undulating etc. SEA BIRD won races ( easily ) against other horses, not stopwatches,
ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt You don't get it. Ever hear of 'Common Sense'? Seems like you lack some of it my good man. This race here don't seem to be much or any up hill. Whats the deal about racing clockwis or counter clockwise? This race was ran in 2:36.5 compared to Secreatriat same distance on dirt in 2:24. Give me a break. Secretariat could have ran uphill in 'MUD'all the way in less than 2:36.5. Do you know the difference in the time gaps here, Over 62 lengths my friend. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@ThefightingCelt What can to say about the competition he had running their guts out trying to catch him. How in the hell could Sea Bird make up 62 lengths on a dirt track whether it was uphill or up side down to beat Secretariat in the Belmont and Secretariat had plenty left to run a even faster time. Times don't mean anything to you bercause your horse never was that fast to run them. Remember, a slow horse will not catch a faster horse.Its called 'Common Sense'. Your unbelievable.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
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ThefightingCelt 10 months ago
SECRETARIAT was the greatest racehorse that ever lived.That is undisputed.
rananim3 1 year ago
@rananim3 Undisputed? By whom is it undisputed ? It is nigh impossible to draw a comparison with US dirt form with that of European turf form. Timeform studied the career of Secretariat in depth, after which they allotted him a figure of 144 - one pound behind French wonder horse, Sea-a Bird. In America, Secretariat is considered one of the best of all time, though opinions vary as to whether he, Citation or Man O' War was the greatest American racehorse of all.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
I see comments such as " quite a good horse" "on a par with Ghostzapper and Dubai Millenium" Are you joking he would pick up those two and carry them, Definitely the greatest racehorse(beat the champions of seven countries in the Arc.) we have seen or are likely to see, Next best is Brigadier Gerard , but he was at his best over 1mile to One and a quarter miles.
liamg353 1 year ago
Impressive race. I'd put him on par with Ghostzapper and Dubai Millenium - two other brilliant runners with abbreviated careers.
DanielSong39 1 year ago
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bgardiner2000 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DanielSong39 Whilst Ghostzapper and DM were nice horses neither were even in the same competition as this horse. His rating is the highest ever given to a thoroughbred. Given the quality of the horses he beat in races such as this it would be fair to say that there's perhaps never been his equal.
bgardiner2000 1 year ago
Quite a good horse.
147ard 1 year ago
Without shadow of a doubt the greatest there as been. The quality of opposition that he disposed off would have won many classics in todays racing... Brilliant is an understatement...
ASupremeOwl 1 year ago
we can never know who was the greatest even if they could all meet you couldnt guarantee some were not having an off day and the result on different courses might be different lets just enjoy all the great horses past and present
littlebay75 1 year ago
thank you my freend good story for horsrs
BOBDAJANI 1 year ago
Obviously a brilliant horse but being the "greatest of all time" seems a bit over the top. He won 7 races - yes albeit in excellent company. Greatness is surely measured by perfomances over a sustained period of time, coming back from spells and performing season after season. Brilliant yes, the greatest no.
dunsta69 2 years ago
Few, if any ,horses race beyond their second season. SB, DB, STS, Nijinsky,Lammtarra are cases in point. Can you name the last classic winner or the winner of the Arc who raced as a 4-year old? I can't! It is my opinion that Sea Bird II was the greatest thoroughbred of the 20th century and whilst I cannot furnish evidence to prove my claim, no one can prove that he wasn't , can they?
tarqogan 2 years ago
This was,without any doubt , the strongest field ever assembled for the Arc, more classic winners, and what today would be Group 1 winners, contested this race than in any other Arc, and that is an undisputed fact. Sea Bird emerged from this race as the greatest racehorse of the 20th century. He is the Paramount Champion.
tarqogan 2 years ago
@tarqogan John Randall and Phil Bull, two of the greatest authoritues on horse racing seem to agree with you.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
素晴らしい勝ちっぷりでした。
wolf0709 2 years ago
Sea Bird faced the best line-up ever assembled for the 65 Arc.
Handicappers, form experts and racing journalists have all examined the form of all the other horses in the race and are in agreement that the quality of horse SB faced was even better than that DB faced in 86.
Sea Bird hung left, because according to Pat Glennon, someone or something in the crowd spooked him. Like Nijinsky, he was a very highly strung horse. He was certainly not tired. Glennon even patted him on the neck.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago 2
Why was '65 a better year than '86 ? That's an honest question, by the way. On the basis of exactly WHAT evidence is '65 regarded to have been better than 1986 ? Or were they equally good years ?
What about 2009 ? (I don't think it was that special, personally)
Why did Sea Bird II hang to the left at the end like a drunkard ?
zarakhast 2 years ago
Sea Bird didn't hang to the left . Pat Glennon,his jockey,has said many ,many times that Sea Bird was 'spooked' by someone or something in the crowds lining the rails. Like many truly great racehorses SB was a highly strung animal.
tarqogan 2 years ago
Oh ereaven, where arrrrrrre yoooooooou ?
He must be hiding somewhere with a big red face. lol
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
FYI, Tom Rolfe did NOT win the 1965 Kentucky Derby.....Lucky Debonair did. Tom Rolfe won the '65 Preakness Stakes. So the narrator was incorrect in saying he faced 4 other Derby winners.
ereaven 2 years ago
The commentator ( Graham Goode) never, at any time, said that Tom Rolfe won the Kentucky Derby.
He said he won The American Derby ( a different race entirely ), which he did - and The Preakness Stakes; again a different and separate race altogether.
So, he is very much correct in what he says.
Many people wrongly assume that he means the Kentucky Derby - he does not !
The American Derby is the race Tom Rolfe won. It is run annually at Arlington Park, Illinois.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
Zarkava on soft ground posted 2:28. that is pretty incredible.
mika1983 2 years ago
I was there !
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
Not at all. I think what makes Sea Bird's victory even more impressive is that beforehand, his Australian jockey, Pat Glennon had urged his trainer, Etienne Pollet not to run the horse, as he belive Sea Bird II had gone over the top - he was displaying real laziness on the home gallops and was just beating his lead horse - where previously he had been destroying them out of sight. Yet on the day he came alive again. Superb.
I also rate Zarkava and Peintre Celebre better than Dancing Brave.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
This is a perfect example of your duplicitous argumentation : you claim in another post that you believe that Dancing Brave was one of the top 10 middle-distance horses of all time, and yet you then rate him behind Zarkava (lol) and Peintre Celebre (a bit more like it but no chance all the same). If Zarkava and Peintre Celebre were better than Dancing Brave then what is your top 10 ?
Dancing Brave was not only better than those two but he was possibly even better than Sea Bird II.
zarakhast 2 years ago
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Is this a joke line up, what is it based on, speed, all round ability, split times, acting on ground, or have you picked them out of a hat.
147ard 2 years ago
Au contraire, ComteLafon. I think Dancing Brave was a very good horse, indeed. If you have read my comments on other threads, you will see that I backed him nealry every time he ran. But, and it's a pertinent but in my eyes - he was not the pegasus or Eclipse that every 80s child makes him out to be - and certianly not the greatest European middle distance racehorse. Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Nijinsky were all superior in my opinion. DB lost twice - on left handed tracks. Food for thought ?
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
all I did was point out that your reference to his Santa Anita defeat was a little bit of a cheap shot. Not too many horses maintain top class form in 7 races from April to November and he clearly didn't reproduce anything like his best form. That's all. For what it's worth, I think if Harwood knew that DB stayed 12f he would have told Starkey to ride it differently and won: the left-handed bit doesn't come into it for me. But yes, Sea Bird is/was the best.
ComteLafon 2 years ago
You're being stupid now.
It was pilot error in the Derby and he was OTT in America.
Interesting that you've listed horses from 'your day?'
I think you're wearing blinkers.
noblewestham 2 years ago
Your opinion that Sea Bird was one pace is borne out of a bias towards Dancing Brave.
Sea Bird's videos on here are in slow motion. I think you should research the career of Sea Bird II and examine the expert opinion - before making stupid, ill informed comments. Sea Bird II was different class. He had the most magnificent, effortless stride I have ever seen from any racehorse.
Btw, Dancing Brave beat Green Desert, who failed to stay a mile, but who turned into a top group one sprinter.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
"He was put firmly in his place by Manilla in America, when both Guy Harwood and Pat Eddery said he was in tip top condition before hand and would definitely win. "
Bill, I don't think you sound very un-biased towards Dancing Brave there. DB didn't run his race there as you very well know.
I'm not saying you're wrong about their respective merits (in fact, I agree with you) , but if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, then don't skew the facts to suit your own opinion.
ComteLafon 2 years ago 2
Sea Bird's Arc was run on soft ground, hence the much slower time. Dancing Brave did not have an instantaneous turn of foot as many think. He had to be wound up before hitting top gear. Sea Bird and Nijinsky could quicken in an instant.
Reliance, who finished runner-up to Sea Bird, is considered by many good judges to have been as good, if not better than most Arc winners, before or since. Sea Bird destroyed him.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago 2
Sea Bird probably has it. What a wonderful horse. It's really sad that as the years go by people forget (and the videos get grainier). I respect the handicappers' verdict : Sea Bird II is probably no.1. It's a very difficult science though.
zarakhast 2 years ago
Sorry mate, Dancing Brave would have outpaced Sea Bird.
Sea Bird was one paced, albeit a bloody good pace! But DB had an extraordinary cruising speed and could still shift up a couple of gears when it really mattered.
The sectional timing for DB in the Derby and Arc for the last 4 furlongs was just outside Group 1 pace.
Remember The Brave won the 1mile Guineas in a canter from an awsome miler in Green Desert.
noblewestham 2 years ago
Green Desert was a sprinter,pure and simple and didn't really stay a mile, but that takes nothing away from DB's win in the 2,000 Guineas.
tarqogan 2 years ago
I agree with much of what you say,MrPapaBill,but I'm looking at the Raceform Flat Annual for 1965 and the Arc was actually run on good ground. However looking at the Epsom Derby race analysis it says and I quote: " Led well over one furlong out,won in canter".
Furthermore, 10 of the horses who finished behind Sea Bird in the Derby went on to win 13 races between them that season. Three of the horses who finished behind Sea Bird in the Arc, Diatome, Anilin and Demi Dieul also won after the Arc
tarqogan 2 years ago
To say that Dancing Brave, or any other colt WOULD have beaten Sea Bird is sheer nonsense. This is a colt who won all his 3 yearold races and such ease and such authority that no one really knew how good he really was. He travelled with phenomenal speed ( always on the bit) and could quicken immediately when asked. Sea Bird II was an extraordinary racehorse. I probably will never see another to compare with him.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
I reckon DB would have beaten Sea Bird though I don't know. What makes me believe that is simply the finishing speed of DB - Sea Bird II is not travelling as quickly as DB was at the end of his races. We can't know for sure but in order to do so we would have to know how good the relative oppositions were. Which was the better year - and how good was the next best horse in each case ? Even so, DB was a faster finisher than Sea Bird. If they couldn't outgallop him they would have lost to him imo.
zarakhast 2 years ago
Different styles of racing!! SeaBird could take it up 2 to 3f out and maintain his pace to the line.Whereas DB couldnt do that,once he'd past everything he'd pull himself up.I think his Arc win is the race where everything went to plan and he delivered.I'm to young to have seen SeaBird I wasnt even born when this race was ran but he looked extra special.I dont think you can compare different generations only the handicapper can do this and even they get it wrong.
frankschlanker 2 years ago
Absolutely agree with you,frankschlanker. Sea Bird was the finest racehorse to grace the turf anywhere in the world.
tarqogan 2 years ago
Dont remember saying that tarqogan but why do people always try to rubbish champions?? I have my own personal favourites and neither are they SBII or DB but I'll never rubbish them or say ones better than the other.They were obviously the best horses of their generation.One horse I would love to have seen was ABERNANT who was rated a superior sprinter to DAYJUR!!! Must have been some ANIMAL!!
frankschlanker 2 years ago
I obviously got the wrong end of the stick there,frankschlanker. Like you,I would NEVER rubbish the reputation of any horse irrespective from which era it emanated. Abernant was before my time too,but I do know that he was a fantastic sprinter trained by Noel Murless. I also believe that the great Tudor Minstrel was practically unbeatable over a mile. He must have been something special to have finished fourth in the Derby. I recognize and respect all those great champions.
tarqogan 2 years ago
Just to point one thing out ,zarakhast, this video is in slow motion, the horses are not travelling at the normal racing speed so consequently the overall result is that they look as if they are not racing very quickly. Believe me I have absolutely no doubt at all that Sea Bird would have taken care of Dancing Brave and any of the other horses who came after him , and that is by no means demeaning the exploits of Dancing Brave et al.
tarqogan 2 years ago
@tarqogan Who could argue, while not necessarily agreeing, with such a diplomatically put point ? Sea Bird II was undoubtedly a great horse. But this "slow motion" talk - what are you talking about exactly ? Explain ! You're pulling my leg aren't you, you devil ! Or are you trying to make a point indirectly, starting with a bit of sarcasm ?
zarakhast 2 years ago
zarakhast, I was referring to the film of Sea Bird's Arc. If you compare the speed of the film of that race with,say, Sea The Stars Arc and Dancing Brave's I think you'll find that the revolutions are very much different. I don't know what the reson for this is as I'm no expert. Perhaps ,and this is only a guess, the film of Sea Bird's Arc is of such poor quality when shown at normal speed that it is only worth watching when it is shown in slow motion. No ,zarakhast, there's no sarcasm.
tarqogan 2 years ago
I agree with you 200 per cent,MrPapaBill. I read somewhere that many racing experts consider SB ' Champion of Champions.' That just about says it all.
tarqogan 2 years ago
In nearly 50 years of having seen ALL the greats, Ribot, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Shergar, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars, I have to say that NO horse has ever travelled with such effortless fluency and won all his races as a 3-year old with such scintillating brilliance as Sea Bird. I am absolutely convinced that Sea Bird was the greatest thoroughbred that ever graced the turf and I haven't seen a racehorse yet who compares with him.
tarqogan 2 years ago
Sea Bird, Le cheval du 20ème siècle.
allezfrance04 2 years ago
Dancing Brave would have beaten Sea Bird.
noblewestham 2 years ago
I'm not sure which would win but it would be a fantastic race to watch.
I started watching horse racing in 1986 and i've not seen a 12 furlong horse which comes anywhere near being as good as Dancing Brave was, in all the years since. But Sea Bird was, quite clearly, exceptional.
IIIIIlIIIIIlIIIIlIlI 2 years ago
147ard you've got a mind like a steel trap everything that enters it gets crushed and mangled
francilius 3 years ago
Give it up, your insults dont work and they look very odd on these pages. i wonder, what do u do for a living. You are fighting a losing battle.
147ard 3 years ago
The consensus of opinion regarding the greatest middle distance performer of the past 50 years is that Sea Bird is top of the tree, I for one fully concur with that analysis. I have seen all the great European champions since 1961,and there have been many,but for me Sea Bird's wins in the1965 Derby and Arc have yet to be surpassed .
francilius 3 years ago
I find it hard to believe that Sea Bird is rated 145 when he only won 2 major races in between minor races, a champion has 2 prove themselves 4/5 times surely. Sea bird is all over the course at the end, reminds me of Swain in the breeders cup, was really tired.
147ard 3 years ago
Not a firm assertion, 21 shergar, just me running off at the mouth once again. The truth is ,my friend , I really DON'T know what the outcome of that encounter would have been over the distances mentioned between two truly exceptional racehorses.
What I can say is ,with some degree of certainty , we are long overdue a champion of the stature of a Pebbles or a Dancing Brave.
francilius 3 years ago
Too right, francilius, Crowded House looked special at the end of last year,so I wait with hope. We are long overdue a purple patch.
Looking back I can't believe within a period of just a few years we saw Dancing Brave, Pebbles, Mtoto, Nashwan, Dayjur, Indian Skimmer, Time Charter, Zilzal and a few more. Glorious times.
21shergar 3 years ago
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francilius 3 years ago
That's a daringly firm assertion, francilius. Pebbles always strikes me as one of those very few (mostly female) horses that could beat anything on their day. Her Champion Stakes brings a smile to my face every time I