Are Christians still bound by old testament law?

[horsemom78]

I sense a searching soal! I pray you will search until you find it, before it is to late! tribulation is already here, and yes we should always strive to be the very best we can be, this is what Jesus came to teach. His great mercy is thier when we fall short, which is in my case, every day! may the Lord reveil Himself to you in this time of confusion!

[jimsnodgras]

@horsemom78 Well thanks for the prayers, but I don't expect it will do much good. I'm not exactly confused either.

[horsemom78]

@jimsnodgras I suppose that if I tell you that Jesus loves you, you may not believe it, but the fact is, that just because you or I don't believe something, does not make it false, it simply makes it, something we do not believe. I don't blame you for feeling this way, but never the less, I have stumbled over your comment for a reason, and because I don't believe in coincidence, I must listen to the still small voice inside that urges me to care for you even though I don't know you.

[horsemom78]

@jimsnodgras only with Jesus does this happen! even if you don't believe in Him, you gota admit that when He died on the cross(belive it or not) for us, He made an unusual statement in that He wanted to save a sinful people from the ramifications of thier deeds, all the while being hated, and praying for God to forgive them! who does that? no one I know! and just for the record, I wish I could get prayed for by some stranger I have not met! regarding my post:I meant the confusion of the world!

[jimsnodgras]

@horsemom78 You are a nice person, but I could never believe in Christianity. 15 years ago, I didn't know very much about the bible. I joined a church and studied the bible w/ small groups of people. I was appalled. I couldn't stand the discrimination against homosexuals, the willful ignorance of science, the unresolved contradictions in the bible. I asked a lot of questions and all I got was excuses that swept problems under the rug.

[jimsnodgras]

@horsemom78 After a year, I walked away from Christianity for good. Yes, most of my friends from church disowned me. It wasn't very fun but it was worth it. I have never looked back. Maybe there is a god but if he exists he isn't anything like the Christian god.

So the bottom line is thank you for your prayers and your kindness, but if you're looking to convert me to Christianity you are barking up the wrong tree.

[stananderson7]

Jim, the Scriptures are not wrong about the Rapture. They simply do not teach such a thing. They do teach the Tribulation and the consequences of accepting the mark of the beast, now known to us as an implanted microchip with 666 included in the bar code, and they do teach us Jesus will return at the end of the 42-month Tribulation.

The Rapture was invented by Margaret Macdonald. Search out her name. The Bible is not wrong, but some preachers are!

[jimsnodgras]

@stananderson7 Come on. You know you aren't going to get away with that. If what you are saying is true then how do you explain verses like: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 or Matthew 24:30-36. No matter what you call it (you can call it the rapture or the skugdug for all I care) the concept of the rapture is firmly rooted in the bible.

[u2binit]

Yes, OT Law is still valid. And those who do not have Christ in their hearts must live up to OT Law, today—that is, if they seek communion with God. However, OT Law has revealed and continues to reveal that man’s flesh is corrupt. Man is unable to live up to this standard of righteousness because it demands perfection—perfect compliance. Perfection has to be found within us. This is why Christ said:

No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

—John 14:6

Christ set His Ekklesia free from bondage!

[jimsnodgras]

@u2binit The old testament laws are no standard to live by. The rules in there vary from being just plain silly to being just plain cruel. That anyone would look at those laws today and assume that they are some standard to live by is just absurd.

[Morehnathanyael]

Christianity is pagan! Its doctrine is pagan! The holidays are pagan! There is absolutely no salvation in the christian church.

[jimsnodgras]

@Morehnathanyael I would agree. I think Christianity is a mixture paganism and fiction.

[cnighlfilms]

Even programs on the History Channel acknowledge that Revelation concerned Nero and the Roman Empire... Check out aion in the Greek.. All modern translations render it AGE not World... Never do you read about the end of time... Only the time of the end... Which in context is end of mosaic covenant....

[cnighlfilms]

I don't... I just respond to attacks or discussions about my belief. If you want to disregard History and document interpretation principles...... Don't pretend you know all about a subject you don't! That seems fair

[cnighlfilms]

Arguments about as cogent as those heard in second grade.

[cnighlfilms]

Yet you have not refuted one thing I've said... Poppycock is not a refutation...You really need to shed your ignorance and understand that you can't apply what world means today to a document written 2000 years ago...

Jesus did exactly what he said he would in exactly the way he said.... Context context context.... You simply don't want to accept what historians both bow and past say on a subject you apparently prefer to push uneducated views too? Answer the responses... Don't use arguments ab

[cnighlfilms]

Actually it did... Most historians understand that as a first century reference to what happened when a foreign army invaded and took slaves.... And in point of fact, the Romans did under Titus' direction...

No rapture there but a historically recorded event.... In THAT generation!

[cnighlfilms]

Lastly... Every instance of the last days in old testament was not end of world... But end of Israel under Mosaic. Covenant.... Gen 49:1-10, deut 32, Isaiah 2:1-4, and Hosea 3..... Among others... Every apostle said they were in Last days.... Because they were...

And once again Historically Jerusalem was destroyed.... The Christians listened to Jesus

And left.... Old law over... New law begun

[cnighlfilms]

As to the preaching of the Gospel... Jesus used 5 Greek words to say that it needed to be preached.....Paul in Romans 10:18,

16:25, Colossians 1:5-6,23 uses the SAME

Greek words to say it HAD been done..... Once again what did THEY mean by World.

[cnighlfilms]

As to the sun going dark.. Read Isaiah 10...

A prophecy plainly told about BAbylon..... Same language same sun darkening but local army kicks Babylon out!!!! THAT WAS HOW THEY USED THAT LANGuAGE IN THE ANCIENT DAYS.... To ignore that is the height of ignorance....

[cnighlfilms]

Still not getting it I see. The Greek word aion

Is translated age.... End of the age.... What age was ending... The mosaic. He was clear.... "see these stones?...." referring to the temple.. In a parallel passage Luke 21

He refers to Jerusalem by name and says these are the days of vengeance where ALL things written are fulfilled!

[cnighlfilms]

To answer your questions.... The context of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the temple..that is what the disciples asked... Earth burning descriptions are a part of first century apocalyptic literature and were not taken literally.... The time statements were...

And the temple was destroyed in a generation of the time Jesus said... Once again Eusebius and others have been saying that for almost two thousand years....learn proper hermeneutics!

[cnighlfilms]

The question is what did Heaven and Earth mean to 1st century Jewish readers... The Historian Josephus records they referred to the temple as Heaven and Earth... Jesus never used the word rapture... Only that those with him would see the kingdom come with power.... They did! Your comments by the way are ad hominum and therefore the true "rubbish". When the Romans surrounded Jerusalem... The Christians fled... Just like Jesus said.... Jerusalem destroyed, Old covenant gone.... Read Isaiah 14 and

[cnighlfilms]

The problem that I see with your argument is that you make the same mistake a number of "prophecy" teachers make today. You are applying 20th century meaning to 1st century words. The Early Church historians Applied the Verses you are using to not the end of the physical world, but the end of the Old Covenant that happened when The Mosaic system was abolished at the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. 40 Years (a generation) after Jesus said it would happen. MUCH more could be proven.

[womansealed]

the old test tells us not to follow a prohet that takes the law away so we must always follow the commandments and unless we want the same end as the false prophet we must only worship The LORD of hosts himself. too understand you should read Isiah who Jesus was is clear if read without the churches brainwashing about its meaning

[mumswording]

The Laws layed out in the Torah do not apply to modern day Christians. Some of the Laws we have today came FROM the Laws God gave to the Jews but the laws as a whole do not apply to modern day Christians. Israel was a THEOCRACY. A government run by GOD directly. This is why they only applied to them.

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras The fact that you think a rapture will happen really shows your level of knowledge!

[dizzy911]

With all do respect, anyone who says the bible contradicts itself just doesn't know how to read it and break scripture down properly plain and simple!

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

So you can't just open up the book and read whatever but in order.

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras 1 Thessalonians 5:21- Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Prove what your saying! So far you can't. Why can't you yourself show me where the scriptures are wrong??? Send me a private message if you want and we can break this down.

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras Why can't you yourself show me where the bible is wrong??? you can send me a private message if you want and we can discuss this. All I want is some proof of what you are saying. 1Thessalonians 5:21- Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Prove what you say!!!

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras Show me where it contradicts itself. I just showed you that the law is still good. Everywhere you read that we are not under the Law it is referring to sacrifice ONLY! Again... show me where the bible contradicts itself.

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras Galations 3:24-25 talks about the Law of sacrifice being our schoolmaster and how by having faith in Christ we are no longer under a schoolmaster.Go to Daniel 9:27 to get understanding of Jesus being crucified in the midst of the week and ending the sacrifice of animals. Again, all the Laws Statutes and Commandments are still good but the sacrificial Law ended when Christ died.

[dizzy911]

@dizzy911 Also, you can't debate a gentile Christian about the scriptures because most of them don't know anything. If you or anyone else wants to learn bible truths then you must go through an Israelite or a someone taught by an israelite (so called blacks scattered around the earth as the bible prophesied would happen.

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras Read hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 all the way through. Also read Hebrews 7:27

[dizzy911]

@jimsnodgras Jesus said he didn't come to desrtroy the law but to fulfill. He came to fulfil the animal sacrifice law so the children if Israel didn't have to kill anymore animals if they sinned ignorantly. Every other law is still in effect ( Sabbath, dietary, adultery etc...). You have to go back and read Daniel to get understanding on this. All has not been fullfilled yet so the law is still good. Heaven and Earth are still here so we know it's still good according to Matthew 5:18.

[dizzy911]

Jesus died on the cross doing away with the law of sacrifice ONLY! He was the final sacrifice. Everything else still stands.

[jhartist123]

Jimsnodgras However I am in no way desperate. What do you mean by that?

[jhartist123]

Jimsnodgras, your probably right. I have no real clue as to whom Jesus was talking about. I've never really looked into it but I think I will now. I should have added that my comment was just my best guess.

[jhartist123]

There are some standing here that will not taste of death until they see the son of man comming. Satan and the other evil angels were cast out of Heaven onto the earth at the start of the human race. They still walk the earth today and will not die until Jesus(the son of man) returns. This is a posibility.

[GanEdenAustralia]

Humans should not be eating pig meat whatsoever. It is a cause of tapeworm, high chlorestrol, heart disease and cancer.

No wonder the Bible outlaws it!

[StudentoftheSpirit]

Luke 21:32- The word "generation" was "genea", which also meant a group or race of people. Jesus was probably saying that Israel would not pass away.

Luke 9:27- John saw the Kingdom of God in a vision before his death, so this promise was kept. You even quoted a scripture from the book he wrote called Revelation in which he documented what he saw.

Jesus Christ made no mistakes.

[GanEdenAustralia]

@StudentoftheSpirit Because Israel is YHWH's people, thats those bought with Messiah's blood.

[solaphyde]

also, the disciples in verse 3 didn't ask when the end of the world is. Damnit, I hate surface level Bible reading. Sorry :) "aion" can mean "period of time" or "indefinite period of time" it all depends on the context! As far as your sidebar goes, we'd have to look at those one at a time. I've looked over many verses atheists have thrown out to try and make the Bible contradict itself. They are always surface level readings. When I read atheist's materials I at least try to go beyond the surfac

[solaphyde]

Remember, in Mat 24, Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple. We need to see what the disciples were asking with that in mind. Moving on, the disciples taught and believed in an "eminent" return, or a return which could occur any time. It's always still unknown however! 2 Pet 3:8 is in the context of awaiting Jesus' return "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

[solaphyde]

In verse 3 the disciples first asked "when will these things be?" Why can't Jesus answer for this be all the way up to verse 35, and then answer the last questions after verse 36? And how do you know for sure that "your coming" is referring to the final judgment? I already said I don't believe "this generation is the Jewish race, but is those Jew's lifetime, as there were alive until 70ad. There's no verse that says the "world will end" or "Jesus will return in your lifetime".

[solaphyde]

I personally, so far, believe Jesus is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem until verse 36. Hence saying "but concerning THAT day and hour..." in verse 36 where Jesus begins to describe that specific event of His return. What is the referent to "that"? It's the coming of the Son of Man. So YOU have the problem of showing why He's talking about His final return the entire time in Mat 24, when He changes tracks to talk specifically about it.

[solaphyde]

No prob, in verse 1 Jesus is talking about the stones of them temple being thrown down while they were standing on the Mt. of Olives which overlooked the temple and all of Jerusalem. The desciples were Jews and would have been shocked at this, b/c there was much hype about how "great" Jerusalem was. In verse 15 Jesus diminished that "hype" due to the 'abomination that causes desolation' referring back to Dan 9 (also prophesying the destruction of the temple). The abomination was, cont...

[solaphyde]

cont... the Jewish rejection of the Messiah, their own Prophet, Savior, and King. The desolation is the destruction of the temple and God bringing judgment upon Jerusalem and scattering them. It's argued in verse 30 that Jesus is using apocalyptic language, or figuratively literal language about His coming in judgment, not His final return. "this generation" in verse 34 can mean the Jewish blood line or those still alive to witness the events. I go with the latter, cont...

[solaphyde]

cont... b/c no one knows who a true Jew is today. they have been scattered to many nations for thousands of years and have inter-married. Even the "long nose" Jewish stereo type is a European trait. It's questionable that around verse 36 or so that He is talking about His final return, but I believe the prior context makes most sense in reference to the 'abomination which causes desolation'. Yes there is much dispute over this, but so what. Which view is most consistent with the text?

[solaphyde]

lastly, I believe Rev 3 is a letter to the 7 churches saying to get their act together because judgment is coming, which would have to mean that Revelation was written prior to 70 ad. There is actually a lot of great evidence, internally and externally that it was. However, Rev also talks about present and ongoing times, and strictly Jesus' final return. I believe Rev mentioned all three, but that chap 3 is a wake up call before Jesus' judgment in 70 ad.

[solaphyde]

cont... Biblically speaking 1. many of the passages referring to Christ's return are in the context of Christ returning in judgment in 70 AD upon Jerusalem (which the entire context of Mat 24, Mk 13, and Lk 2 is about), a prophecy of Jesus that WAS fulfilled but no one cares about that for some reason. With Rom 10:4 yes Jesus was the end of the law, NOT us (going back to Rom 5:17-21 that Christ provides the righteousness that we don't have). Simply, surface level Bible reading wont work.

[solaphyde]

Alrighty then. Well I already touched on Mat 5. Christ is referring to Himself fulfilling the law, NOT us. Luke 16:17 doesn't teach that the OT law is prescriptive for the entire church age. The apostles interpret the OT as being a shadow which points to Christ and the church who is the reality and fulfillment (Col 2:16-17 as one tiny example). With Jesus' return, the apostle's believed in an eminent return, but never absolutely stated He would return within their lifetimes. Cont...