Nah, it's not really that hard to figure out. Think about how differently you act around your friends than you do around your parents or in school. Those are three contexts and there are different "yous" in each of those. If we create contexts that make it easy for people to be nasty to one another, chances are more will, and vice versa. See, not so hard to get, right?
I have no idea what plans are being made for a new site but my thoughts are this. ANYONE can watch videos on YT without an account,which is fine,as they can't be faceless haters and leave hurtful comments and messages etc. To be able to have an account on a site that we want to keep nice and friendly I think it should be made a rule that you can't open an account without first making an introductory video where you can be SEEN and KNOWN before you are allowed to comment, rate and send messages.
That into video should STAY on the account and not be able to be removed...even it the user doesn't make anymore videos. That way others can always see the person who has left comments etc.
I enjoy you tube and the very reason its so successful is the range of opinions on the site. What you'll get with you suggestion is another facebook bebo ect.
Another very interesting video. I know I have said and done things on youtube in the past that I certainly wouldn't have thought I would do if you had asked me a couple of years ago.
can situational behavior be utilized to control peoples interactions on a social webstite? the rules need to be clear and enforced. who decides what constitutes bad behavior from strongly stated disagreement?
how are bad actors discouraged and kept away if banned. the noted experiments show that many people display a follower mentality. how can they be led to act in the manner you desire using the tools of a website to exert that control?
Well, we'll see. Rules need to be clear and enforced, for sure. Close calls are always that: judgments that some would make differently. Social controls (people establishing and applying agreed-upon rules) are the first step. Beyond that simple structures. These are principles. Executing them effectively makes all the difference. Thanks.
So, on YouTube, our 'me's are influenced by the people we choose to subscribe to and watch; and by the people that choose to subscribe to us and comment on/interact with our videos. At the same time, our 'me's are influenced by the 'global YouTube environment' (for want of a better term) and so we are all affected by haters, wether we personally receive hate comments or not!
Tom, though I'm but a simple engineer, I'm also very familiar with the experiments you've referred to.
As I've said before, the problem with YouTube is that there are few to no repercussions for posting the most vile comments. When I see a "Hate Speech" link button beside "Reply" & "Spam" then I'll know they're starting to take this issue seriously.
Yeah, vancouver57 has mentioned this idea to me before (in my response to Battim's response to one of your vids Tom!) and I think it would be a terrific idea. I guess it wouldn't be that hard for YouTube to add such a button and, if enough of us contacted them about it or a petition was organised...
...I guess the same old difficulty comes in administrating such a system once in place. Certainly something to think about though.
Well people will ehave differently when frightened because (correct me if I'm wrong) a part of a brain called the amydagala reacts to dangerous situation first and this acts on out of date information.
Very interesting video and discussion here. I agree with you, Tom. The way I see it, each human has an instinctive nature - which is largely supressed by civilization.
And we want 2 core things: 1) self-preservation (to avoid "pain") and 2) self-expression (to express our supressed natural instincts).
Most of us are looking for places and ways to express that supressed nature and avoid the "pain" for doing so. So I think, humans will always behave in such ways.
Good and evil are believed to be the scale of morality of the mind. Past and present are believed to be the scale of experience in time. No one can truly understand either unless they consider both (non-exclusive) as a whole.
I remember watching the prison experiment documentary a long time ago on tv. It was very interesting. I wouldn't mind watching it again. What stuck out the most for me was when the experiment was over and they interviewed two guys from the study. one played a guard and the other a prisoner. The one playing the prisoner stated to the one playing the guard, :I do not like you, we could never be friends". The one playing the guard asked, "Why? This was just an experiment, simply role playing"?
and the one playing the prisoner said, "because I know what you can become". This for some reason stuck out to me the most. It was so long ago that I watched it, I remember bits and pieces, but that interview I remember the most.
Have you watched the movie "There Will Be Blood"? If you had you should be able to see the connection between it and your topic. Money, power, ambition can turn the world for a person.
I never thought of Zimbardo's study having such broad implications - it seems like we're pretty utilitarian creatures though we're trying to do anything to shake that image off :>
To me it kinda looks like lessons of focused market regulation...
I really enjoy your videos. Inmendham has discussed the notion of two ego states. One being essentially when we operate from our prefrontal cortex, and the other ego state comes to the foreground when we operate from our "internalized asshole." He does such a great job of name calling that he surrounds himself with complete assholes. A group which he professes to fight. The projection of his aggression no doubt increase his hypervigilance.
as an architect i'm really interested in this debate...
i think that your question about the internet meaning and internet behaviour is a claim for the necessity of culture. the fact is that internet is the first proper "democracy", is a society where everyone demonstrate himself. many people uses masks as a perennial carnival...
i think that every culture uses "masks", how to use it properly could be our task...
An asymmetric reward matrix may induce delusions of grandeur. Religions have attempted to deal with this in the past. Reciprocity and equality have been promoted as solutions. Status systems are probably inherently flawed.
Wow, that's highly cryptic. Every social system is a "status system" (with the sources of status varying from system to system) to some degree, isn't it? Or, am I misunderstanding you?
People who feel the need for more status will go to excess to get it. The bully and the subversive feel that it is theirs for the taking. Unfulfilled desires contribute to action potentials. Stability is placed at risk.
Excessive rivalry tends to divide and is detrimental to society.
One Tom is; another is a nasty, foul-mouthed Bronx boy. It's a string theory kind of thing...Good to hear from you. Your video in the cardboard box was hilarious.
do you know that there is a curageous speech of zimbardo right here on YT (October 4, 2007 at Google Headquarters in Mountain View, CA). You could also add a link to the vid...
Absolutely the same thing, Marihani. And, anonymity is a proven provocative element. Want people to "loosen up"? Have a "masked ball," where everyone's anonymous. Thanks.
There are lots of people who'd rather just ignore the Milgram (et al) experiments and believe that we don't have these "other mes" hiding below the surface. But, yes, which of our inner "mes" come out depends on which ones are fed and encouraged. Great vlog, doctor.
Great Video, Sir...reminds me of people fighting for food from the back of a truck...pushing women and children over...as you said , purely 'situational' aggression!
While I don't disagree that our environment can influence our behaviour (it's not the first time I've heard about those experiments) my question is where does that leave person responsibilty.
Can the guards from Abu Ghraib place all the blame for their actions on an appauling working environment?
Can we place all the blame for our objectionable online behaviour on disfunctional websites?!
Your point about personal responsibility is the next thing I'm going to talk about. None of us is ever free from the consequences of our actions because we are free. My point is understanding behavior, not excusing it. Calling Abu Grahib an "appalling working environment" doesn't capture the power of a system to influence people. Thanks.
I accept that my choice of words was poor. Perhaps it's hard to appreciate how bad a bad situation can be unless you've been there. I know I haven't been. Neverthless I believe empathy is an important part of not having a prejudiced or critical view of others' actions.
Wow, so true. I think Lord of the Flies captured the spirit of what you're saying. I like to think of myself as a pacifist who likes to have fun, but who knows how we will react in situations that are alien to us?
I'm looking forward to the kind of website you are talking about here. I'd drop YouTube in a flash just to make the political statement that a lot of the stuff on YouTube is unnaceptable in a civil society. I'd move elsewhere (I suppose it would be akin to moving to a nicer neigbourhood) to make that point. It is obvious that flagging is ineffectual, but more than that, people see it as 'unfair', so the system you are talking about needs to be transparent.
Well, I'm a partner and choose to attach ads. It's certainly not lucrative but partnership is a big part of this phase of online video. I guess I'd feel like a hypocrite not seeing what their impact really is. Thanks.
So much of the internet, You Tube included, is more or less like the island in "Lord of the Flies." That interpretation certainly agrees with what I've observed.
I agree with the suggestions to have one's identity verified as the first step toward civility.
I got about 4 minutes in and decided to watch this when I have time to really listen to what you have to say and then make a real comment. This stuff is of interest to me for many reasons (one is that I'm taking Social Psychology this semester and we just finished talking about the prison experiment) and want to give this my full attention.
I did something once (How I wish I could FORGET) that was totally unexpected, unexplainable, and completely "out of character". So, I agree that situation alters behavior. Man, how I wish I could forget...I hope I never see that "me' ever again. aarrgghh
I'll be that's an experience that a huge percentage of us share with you. Thanks for reminding those of us who normally don't behave in ways we are ashamed of what it's like to recall those "atypical me" moments.
It's nice to see someone talking about these things. I often reference those 2 experiments when discussing "human nature"... it's hard to ignore what those experiments suggest about all of us.
If it was mandatory to publically display your address, phone number, and first & last names in order to have an account on youtube, alot of this aggressive, uncivil behavior over this website would be contained.
Certainly, anonymity is one of the conditions, like a power failure, that brings about a lot of uncivil behavior. Nothing wrong with anonymity per se, like the dark, but lots of people begin exhibiting mob behavior when they're operating under its cloak.
Great subject Tom.... I was at a non-violent communication seminar today and the founder said that structures have a spirituality of their own. Often these structures are punitive in the way that they get their needs met. According to him this punishment reward system, which assumes there are good people and bad people, actually makes it more difficult for everyone to get their needs met in a way that is enjoyable for everyone concerned. Interesting stuff for sure...
I love that idea: structures have a spirituality of their own, absolutely! Recognizing the malleability of "human nature" is not easy; we come from a tradition that wants to "sort 'em and shoot 'em," if you know what I mean. Good to hear from you, 2/6.
I know that S.L.A. Marshall's research in his book Men Against Fire has been disputed but still the military uses behavioral conditioning to address the hesitation soldiers have to fire a weapon at another human being. Is it conditions or conditioning that changes who we become when the lights go out?
No question that conditioning is one key element in environmental circumstances that lead to all kinds of behaviors. Extraordinary conditions on their own, however, even without the help of formal programming, lead to extraordinary occurrences.
Reminds me of when a NYC mayor initiated a drive to remove litter and graffiti from a certain area and there was an instant drop in that area's crime rate.
Bingo. Rudy did that. Now, there are lots of arguments about whether or not Rudy's campaign was the source of the changes, but I think you have to look at what happened and see the street-level difference in NYC when he became mayor. It was night and day. The city felt safe again. I just think context sends important signals about what's OK and what's not and things go from there.
We have a continuity mechanism that assures us we are consistent, even when we are not. Otherwise we'd go bonkers. We are nice, except when we are being nasty. We are faithful, except when we are not. We also seek consistency through our institutions, which are bigger than us and can help stretch that personal inconsistency out into something more meaningful. I agree, civility is a better path than the alternative, but we still gotta have some fun, right? lol
Interesting study, Tom. There are some deep, and rather broad, psychological factors involved in creating a "good" online environment. Simply to try and achieve it is a monumental task facing anyone whose goal is to create such a website. Is it an impossible dream?
Great discussion. It reminds me a bit of "broken windows" theory. For example, if you do not delete hateful comments from your videos, you will receive a higher percentage of hater comments on that video in the future. There are small things that we can do to discourage unwanted behaviors.
That's an important aspect of any community Paul: how well does it live up to its own standards? "Broken windows" are indicators and small things signal larger ones. Thanks.
I agree with what you said, but in a the context of a place here on youtube. Youtube has written rules to deture bad behavior, Yet bad behavior exist. Does it exist because youtube really doesn't care or....does it exsist because the membership is too large to police. If the latter is true then what garrantee's that another website would be able to deal with it better? You would have to limit useage to an elite to avoid problems. So heres a thought, should we begin Internet faternities?
vmanvand....you wrote, "does it exsist because the membership is too large to police."Its simply not possible.If you hire captains, people to help monitor, truth is, your dealing with infallible beings.Someone would be treated unfairly by someone at some point either by accident or deliberate motives.You would have to have a overly censored site & plenty of money for victim mentaliy lawsuits to come.Its an impossible plight to manage even 10,000 people by monetary means vs. profit margins.~Raven
The Science Tom talks about is right but it can't work in the real world, there is always that one varible that needs to be dealt with, which would lead to as you put it "You would have to have a overly censored site" thus making a site full of elitists. In my opinion the motivation for even trying to do something like this is envy because steve and chad made it work and made millions.
You're speaking about things you have no knowledge of, Cliff. Words like "censors" and "elitist" are your own and have nothing to do with the ideas we're working on. What Chad and Steve have made work is world-changing and worth every penny they've made. What we're thinking about is something entirely different.
I appretiate what your saying here but, as you said in your video the creator of the website would encouage and discouage behavior based on rewards, When behavior is not satifactory that person would be removed right? Isn't that what youtube does, and we complain about it. It seems your just trying to set the rules. Maybe my envy statement was out of line but I'm not seeing where it would be better or worse. Just diffrent, what happend when the behavior of person effects the monetary negatively.
I normally like what you say and also like what you said in this video. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how the vision you put forth here translates into the real world. Its seems as though you and others are dissatified with how youtube turned out and desire something diffrent. But the disscussion is here and has always been here, and That's why I posed the question about internet faternities above. Like flavors of Ice Cream. Which I would say can be sampled here on Youtube.
Well, yes. The problem isn't that YT removes people; it's that it doesn't. Do you really think that what we have here is the best that a group of people is capable of designing and executing? I didn't think you were that pessimistic about people, Cliff.
I agree with you about More can happen than what youtube offers here and hope you guys can do what your talking about but for my needs youtube fits the bill. But I have as you have look at several other sites and youtube is still the best overall. Stickcam comes in a strong second.
will you remove me from your website? What if someone steals from your glory and talk about things that might not make you feel signifcant, brainy, attractive, powerful? What if people do not give you the respect you feel you deserve? you will take them out and so what is this you are creating besides a landlord state? Surrounding yourself with edifiers, the same old arrogance and greed persisting. Yet I stay tuned with hope some break through will happen and you prove me wrong. Be well.
I think the task also becomes how do you create the context without also making people feel their personal private self is being imprisoned?
As an aside, one of the first times I scared myself and totally shook my core beliefs about myself, occurred in college in the 70's. Along with other students I worked in a state juvenile prison as social work interns...one day I found myself threatened and did a "take down" which previously I thought I'd never do. I was stunned at how violently I did it.
"Imprisoned" is a strong word in an online context, jr. Balance is never easy nor perfect.
It is amazing to actually experience oneself doing something like you describe. Kind of an out-of-body experience, almost. Thanks for bringing that up.
Excellent points, as always. Many thanks for the links.
BTW I hope that I cleared up my stance on the CC, in the latest YTA vid. I did misspeak about the emails. I inserted a text correction over the clip, and in the description. If anything that was said was inaccurate, please let me know.
I appreciate, and respect, your opinion. I hope you, and yours, have a good week. -Allen
Thanks, A11en. I have really enjoyed your YTA videos since your return. I completely understand and respect your opinions regarding the CC. Remember, we are the first; others will be able to take up our small start to try to open up communication with YT.
Sorry, I want to finish this comment. As I was saying before, the Internet allows for people to feel free to act unacceptably because their Internet self cannot be connected to their real self. This division allows people not to violate the idea of constant self. Does a site that encourages civility need to put an end to anonymity? How can a social website create personal accountability?
bmoreq...you wrote, " their Internet self cannot be connected to their real self. This division allows people not to violate the idea of constant self."
Excellent! Very true! I would also argue that a desensitization to people is evident in their real self too. There would be a level of conscious even on the Internet to curve the freedom of ill willed expressions where their consequences exists soley in the typing of words. ~Raven
Yes, I don't know if you saw my previous video but I did go on for quite a while about the notion that the online world isn't real! In real life, people create accountability to one another, with help from tools and structures. Thanks.
As someone who studied psychology for a short stint in high school and college, I understand and agree with the basis of the argument. The question becomes the implementation of such a vision. How do you create a community where expressing your most civil self is encouraged? On the benefits and problems of the Internet is that anonymity gives people the feeling that they can get away with unacceptable behavior since it cannot be traced back to the really them.
A big part of the internet culture is formed by the people who participate in online gaming. If you saw the behaviour that occurs on xbox live and some of these mmorpg sites you would be shocked. There are plenty of videos and articles documenting this. I know I will get flamed for what I just said but it is true. Some of the violence has spilled over in real life. There are children and adults that are murdering each other over a game. Who's to blame? The admins and the gamers.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I know mmorpgs are incubators for the kinds of social interactions that will become commonplace online. These are new situations for us and we are figuring all of this out as we go.
Part 1~ Personally, the biggest let down in life for me is that few know themselves at all. I dont beleive that man can be a predictor of who he is. You just cant know until you have been through something over and over to know if your strong in a certain situation. I find, and not trying to sound cruel...but I think of most people as "Illusions"...~Raven
part 2~ they feel lies as true...They feel a reality that doesnt exist in who they are or who they are in their relationships. A person who 10 years down the road is very near to who they said they were they day you met them, is so rare, that I only know of 2 in my real life that who WERE who they said they were and WHO I found them to be. Thats pretty frickin alarming cause I have met many in real life. It brings out the loner in me because I am tired of surprises. ~Raven
I think that people underestimate their own complexity. Each person, when meeting another, presents what they think of as the most socially acceptable version of themselves - a fact often made very clear in cross-cultural misunderstandings. I am not sure if people are "illusions," but most people do not, and I think could not, function conscious of the reality that they are capable of true evil.
Part 1~ bmoreg, I think a humble person(if one truly exists)would realize that they are always capable of doing what they couldnt imagine. It certainly would keep them less judgemental. In terms of illusions, so many describe themselves as you say, "presenting" a side that is socially acceptable...~Raven
Part 2~ bmoreg, that is a great description of the Illusions but the sad part is they feel it is true despite the evidence. Getting to know someone is about the "unveiling of self." If a person needs to be "seen as" something...than the true self is never presented. Even the rebel is often presenting themselves as a rebel to be socially unacceptable with true motives of gaining the respect from the society group. Its still fake. ~Raven
Dude your hat is amazing, I have the same one.
watsursnbaby 3 years ago
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UrosPetrovicPSY 3 years ago
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UrosPetrovicPSY 3 years ago
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UrosPetrovicPSY 3 years ago
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UrosPetrovicPSY 2 years ago
I found the Stanford Prison Experiment very interesting indeed, thank you so much for the links, I will be checking out the other links also.
5 *
700eyesonly007 3 years ago
I very much agree with everything being said in the video.
Marazuga 3 years ago
whats this about?
andym551 3 years ago
The contextual nature of identity, how we're each very different people in different settings.
tlg847 3 years ago
ooo i dont get it :S probley cuz im to young to know nd stuff :S
andym551 3 years ago
Nah, it's not really that hard to figure out. Think about how differently you act around your friends than you do around your parents or in school. Those are three contexts and there are different "yous" in each of those. If we create contexts that make it easy for people to be nasty to one another, chances are more will, and vice versa. See, not so hard to get, right?
tlg847 3 years ago
i left school:D
and i dno if you can help me but i need to constrate more cuz i got my gcse exams but i cant:(
sorry for changing the subject lol
andym551 3 years ago
I have no idea what plans are being made for a new site but my thoughts are this. ANYONE can watch videos on YT without an account,which is fine,as they can't be faceless haters and leave hurtful comments and messages etc. To be able to have an account on a site that we want to keep nice and friendly I think it should be made a rule that you can't open an account without first making an introductory video where you can be SEEN and KNOWN before you are allowed to comment, rate and send messages.
stellawashere 3 years ago
That into video should STAY on the account and not be able to be removed...even it the user doesn't make anymore videos. That way others can always see the person who has left comments etc.
stellawashere 3 years ago
I enjoy you tube and the very reason its so successful is the range of opinions on the site. What you'll get with you suggestion is another facebook bebo ect.
SMoldie 3 years ago
Another very interesting video. I know I have said and done things on youtube in the past that I certainly wouldn't have thought I would do if you had asked me a couple of years ago.
stellawashere 3 years ago
Hi Tom,
can situational behavior be utilized to control peoples interactions on a social webstite? the rules need to be clear and enforced. who decides what constitutes bad behavior from strongly stated disagreement?
how are bad actors discouraged and kept away if banned. the noted experiments show that many people display a follower mentality. how can they be led to act in the manner you desire using the tools of a website to exert that control?
I look forward to how you address this.
eace
cambridgee 3 years ago
Well, we'll see. Rules need to be clear and enforced, for sure. Close calls are always that: judgments that some would make differently. Social controls (people establishing and applying agreed-upon rules) are the first step. Beyond that simple structures. These are principles. Executing them effectively makes all the difference. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
By the way great yellow p hat
VegtableFRUITMan 3 years ago
Old school bad, ain't it?
tlg847 3 years ago
You should run for president man.
VegtableFRUITMan 3 years ago
Great vid, very interesting.
So, on YouTube, our 'me's are influenced by the people we choose to subscribe to and watch; and by the people that choose to subscribe to us and comment on/interact with our videos. At the same time, our 'me's are influenced by the 'global YouTube environment' (for want of a better term) and so we are all affected by haters, wether we personally receive hate comments or not!
novanine 3 years ago
Perfectly said. That is exactly the issue. We cannot divorce ourselves from the context in which we interact. This one could use some work. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
No probs. I have added this video to my first playlist: Important Videos.
Hope that's ok?
novanine 3 years ago
OK? I'm honored. Thank you.
tlg847 3 years ago
Tom, though I'm but a simple engineer, I'm also very familiar with the experiments you've referred to.
As I've said before, the problem with YouTube is that there are few to no repercussions for posting the most vile comments. When I see a "Hate Speech" link button beside "Reply" & "Spam" then I'll know they're starting to take this issue seriously.
vancouver57 3 years ago
That would be remarkable, indeed. I would not hold my breath.
tlg847 3 years ago
Yeah, vancouver57 has mentioned this idea to me before (in my response to Battim's response to one of your vids Tom!) and I think it would be a terrific idea. I guess it wouldn't be that hard for YouTube to add such a button and, if enough of us contacted them about it or a petition was organised...
...I guess the same old difficulty comes in administrating such a system once in place. Certainly something to think about though.
novanine 3 years ago
Well people will ehave differently when frightened because (correct me if I'm wrong) a part of a brain called the amydagala reacts to dangerous situation first and this acts on out of date information.
MatthewMitch23051992 3 years ago
Very interesting video and discussion here. I agree with you, Tom. The way I see it, each human has an instinctive nature - which is largely supressed by civilization.
And we want 2 core things: 1) self-preservation (to avoid "pain") and 2) self-expression (to express our supressed natural instincts).
Most of us are looking for places and ways to express that supressed nature and avoid the "pain" for doing so. So I think, humans will always behave in such ways.
Great video and discussion.
richardweekes 3 years ago
To paraphrase Isaac Asimov,
Good and evil are believed to be the scale of morality of the mind. Past and present are believed to be the scale of experience in time. No one can truly understand either unless they consider both (non-exclusive) as a whole.
That80sGuy1972 3 years ago
Absolutely. Well said, but then, Asimov was a genius so we'd expect nothing less. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
God rest his soul and y/w.
That80sGuy1972 3 years ago
I remember watching the prison experiment documentary a long time ago on tv. It was very interesting. I wouldn't mind watching it again. What stuck out the most for me was when the experiment was over and they interviewed two guys from the study. one played a guard and the other a prisoner. The one playing the prisoner stated to the one playing the guard, :I do not like you, we could never be friends". The one playing the guard asked, "Why? This was just an experiment, simply role playing"?
grandplans 3 years ago
and the one playing the prisoner said, "because I know what you can become". This for some reason stuck out to me the most. It was so long ago that I watched it, I remember bits and pieces, but that interview I remember the most.
grandplans 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
im just kidding with you..
xXDom3ShoTXx 3 years ago
No problem!
tlg847 3 years ago
how old are you? like 90? lol
xXDom3ShoTXx 3 years ago
93 or 94...I forget.
tlg847 3 years ago
I'm sorry to be the one to make this remark, but you didn't cut your nails. WHY?!
mollymange 3 years ago
That is so funny! Actually, I cut them this morning...something else to worry about when I make a video!!
tlg847 3 years ago
Have you watched the movie "There Will Be Blood"? If you had you should be able to see the connection between it and your topic. Money, power, ambition can turn the world for a person.
mollymange 3 years ago
can you repeat that? you lost me at bundles.
iseehaters 3 years ago
lol...
tlg847 3 years ago
jk;;;;lol
iseehaters 3 years ago
Lol!! I'll bet you were always the class clown. You are too hilarious!!!!!
pcrudup 3 years ago
I never thought of Zimbardo's study having such broad implications - it seems like we're pretty utilitarian creatures though we're trying to do anything to shake that image off :>
To me it kinda looks like lessons of focused market regulation...
Zea107 3 years ago
your hat rocks man
KrisMTL 3 years ago
Not everybody agrees! My wife, for example...
;)
tlg847 3 years ago
Tom what's up with the hat?
rguack 3 years ago
old school ugly Buccos hat...felt like that kind of day!
tlg847 3 years ago
I really enjoy your videos. Inmendham has discussed the notion of two ego states. One being essentially when we operate from our prefrontal cortex, and the other ego state comes to the foreground when we operate from our "internalized asshole." He does such a great job of name calling that he surrounds himself with complete assholes. A group which he professes to fight. The projection of his aggression no doubt increase his hypervigilance.
TheTowTruckDriver 3 years ago
as an architect i'm really interested in this debate...
i think that your question about the internet meaning and internet behaviour is a claim for the necessity of culture. the fact is that internet is the first proper "democracy", is a society where everyone demonstrate himself. many people uses masks as a perennial carnival...
i think that every culture uses "masks", how to use it properly could be our task...
thanks!
conwint 3 years ago
Fantastic, thankyou Tom!
LiamBelk1 3 years ago
An asymmetric reward matrix may induce delusions of grandeur. Religions have attempted to deal with this in the past. Reciprocity and equality have been promoted as solutions. Status systems are probably inherently flawed.
httprover 3 years ago
Wow, that's highly cryptic. Every social system is a "status system" (with the sources of status varying from system to system) to some degree, isn't it? Or, am I misunderstanding you?
tlg847 3 years ago
People who feel the need for more status will go to excess to get it. The bully and the subversive feel that it is theirs for the taking. Unfulfilled desires contribute to action potentials. Stability is placed at risk.
Excessive rivalry tends to divide and is detrimental to society.
httprover 3 years ago 2
Nicely put. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
Is Tom the most civil man on YouTube?
wogsland 3 years ago
One Tom is; another is a nasty, foul-mouthed Bronx boy. It's a string theory kind of thing...Good to hear from you. Your video in the cardboard box was hilarious.
tlg847 3 years ago
do you know that there is a curageous speech of zimbardo right here on YT (October 4, 2007 at Google Headquarters in Mountain View, CA). You could also add a link to the vid...
ogier1 3 years ago
Thanks. On my way to find it right now. When his TED talk comes on line I'll refer to it in a vid.
tlg847 3 years ago
Youtube has proven that if bad behaviour is overlooked, it is the same as encouraging it.
Consider also human nature and how the ability to be anonymous effects how "naughty" people get.
Marihani 3 years ago
Absolutely the same thing, Marihani. And, anonymity is a proven provocative element. Want people to "loosen up"? Have a "masked ball," where everyone's anonymous. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
There are lots of people who'd rather just ignore the Milgram (et al) experiments and believe that we don't have these "other mes" hiding below the surface. But, yes, which of our inner "mes" come out depends on which ones are fed and encouraged. Great vlog, doctor.
kenrg 3 years ago
Thank, ken. Feeding the mes is a cool line...
tlg847 3 years ago
Great Video, Sir...reminds me of people fighting for food from the back of a truck...pushing women and children over...as you said , purely 'situational' aggression!
slowandcrystal 3 years ago
Great! as always.
inspires me.
sillysillytom 3 years ago
many of your you's have made me think about my me's.
thank you
curtly99 3 years ago
A statement by Nils Bejerot in 1973 was the first time I ever thought about this subject.
Frank
ockteby 3 years ago
We older guys do have memories that go back that far. Amazing, isn't it, Frank?
tlg847 3 years ago
Tom...
I always look forward to your videos. You certainly make us stop and think.
Take care.
glr0661 3 years ago
While I don't disagree that our environment can influence our behaviour (it's not the first time I've heard about those experiments) my question is where does that leave person responsibilty.
Can the guards from Abu Ghraib place all the blame for their actions on an appauling working environment?
Can we place all the blame for our objectionable online behaviour on disfunctional websites?!
talk74 3 years ago
Your point about personal responsibility is the next thing I'm going to talk about. None of us is ever free from the consequences of our actions because we are free. My point is understanding behavior, not excusing it. Calling Abu Grahib an "appalling working environment" doesn't capture the power of a system to influence people. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
I accept that my choice of words was poor. Perhaps it's hard to appreciate how bad a bad situation can be unless you've been there. I know I haven't been. Neverthless I believe empathy is an important part of not having a prejudiced or critical view of others' actions.
I look forward to your next video.
talk74 3 years ago
Wow, so true. I think Lord of the Flies captured the spirit of what you're saying. I like to think of myself as a pacifist who likes to have fun, but who knows how we will react in situations that are alien to us?
TamHickey67 3 years ago
Yes, we think we know, but so did the guards at Abu Grahib. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
I'm looking forward to the kind of website you are talking about here. I'd drop YouTube in a flash just to make the political statement that a lot of the stuff on YouTube is unnaceptable in a civil society. I'd move elsewhere (I suppose it would be akin to moving to a nicer neigbourhood) to make that point. It is obvious that flagging is ineffectual, but more than that, people see it as 'unfair', so the system you are talking about needs to be transparent.
Thanks for the thoughts on this.
whypatcondellisntfun 3 years ago
Thanks. Transparency is very important to assure fairness. Nothing's perfect but explaining your principles and their means of use goes a long way.
tlg847 3 years ago
again, i must say...HATE all the advertisements attached to your videos. why are they on yours and not peter's?
meltona 3 years ago
Because he's a Youtube partner.
Magnulus 3 years ago
Well, I'm a partner and choose to attach ads. It's certainly not lucrative but partnership is a big part of this phase of online video. I guess I'd feel like a hypocrite not seeing what their impact really is. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
So much of the internet, You Tube included, is more or less like the island in "Lord of the Flies." That interpretation certainly agrees with what I've observed.
I agree with the suggestions to have one's identity verified as the first step toward civility.
aloha :) ray
MrRay47 3 years ago
Hard to read that book and not see it as a cautionary tale about behavior and situations, Ray. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
I got about 4 minutes in and decided to watch this when I have time to really listen to what you have to say and then make a real comment. This stuff is of interest to me for many reasons (one is that I'm taking Social Psychology this semester and we just finished talking about the prison experiment) and want to give this my full attention.
Aaroncast86 3 years ago
Under the right conditions 3rd graders will plot to put down their teacher lol
RIPPPtheJacker 3 years ago
Animals! Animals, I tell you!! lol
tlg847 3 years ago
I did something once (How I wish I could FORGET) that was totally unexpected, unexplainable, and completely "out of character". So, I agree that situation alters behavior. Man, how I wish I could forget...I hope I never see that "me' ever again. aarrgghh
dorotwhy 3 years ago
I'll be that's an experience that a huge percentage of us share with you. Thanks for reminding those of us who normally don't behave in ways we are ashamed of what it's like to recall those "atypical me" moments.
tlg847 3 years ago
I think it was more like an "F-typical Me"
dorotwhy 3 years ago
Oh yeah...I think we all know those, too!
tlg847 3 years ago
Tom... another great video. I'm sure you've considered making this a response video to "It's just the internet"...
renetto 3 years ago
Thanks, Paul. Oops...forgot to do that...thanks for the reminder.
tlg847 3 years ago
It's nice to see someone talking about these things. I often reference those 2 experiments when discussing "human nature"... it's hard to ignore what those experiments suggest about all of us.
Sh4zor 3 years ago
I think we ignore these studies at our peril. It's part of who we are as a species. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
If it was mandatory to publically display your address, phone number, and first & last names in order to have an account on youtube, alot of this aggressive, uncivil behavior over this website would be contained.
UnfamousJames 3 years ago
Certainly, anonymity is one of the conditions, like a power failure, that brings about a lot of uncivil behavior. Nothing wrong with anonymity per se, like the dark, but lots of people begin exhibiting mob behavior when they're operating under its cloak.
tlg847 3 years ago
mikma was here
mikma 3 years ago
hahaha. mikma, this made me laugh :p.
Mooglel 3 years ago
Hi, mik! Happy spring.
tlg847 3 years ago
Fav5*
I remember reading about those test many times...and seeing vids about it.... I wonder if those vids are here on YT?
Gimmeabreakman 3 years ago
Thanks, Victor. If you find them, let me know.
tlg847 3 years ago
Great subject Tom.... I was at a non-violent communication seminar today and the founder said that structures have a spirituality of their own. Often these structures are punitive in the way that they get their needs met. According to him this punishment reward system, which assumes there are good people and bad people, actually makes it more difficult for everyone to get their needs met in a way that is enjoyable for everyone concerned. Interesting stuff for sure...
2of6Solutions 3 years ago
I love that idea: structures have a spirituality of their own, absolutely! Recognizing the malleability of "human nature" is not easy; we come from a tradition that wants to "sort 'em and shoot 'em," if you know what I mean. Good to hear from you, 2/6.
tlg847 3 years ago
love your videos and sorry but i hate your hat go TWINS!
Derlex 3 years ago
Yeah, my wife's not too crazy about it either. Go Bucs/Go Yanks!
tlg847 3 years ago
I love your videos.
vitalfinds 3 years ago
Thanks very much. I always appreciate your perspective.
tlg847 3 years ago
I'm taking evil back :D
evilbrainproductions 3 years ago
I know that S.L.A. Marshall's research in his book Men Against Fire has been disputed but still the military uses behavioral conditioning to address the hesitation soldiers have to fire a weapon at another human being. Is it conditions or conditioning that changes who we become when the lights go out?
channeIreview 3 years ago
No question that conditioning is one key element in environmental circumstances that lead to all kinds of behaviors. Extraordinary conditions on their own, however, even without the help of formal programming, lead to extraordinary occurrences.
tlg847 3 years ago
Tom, I love your insight and perspective. You're so great!
AndrewLife 3 years ago
Reminds me of when a NYC mayor initiated a drive to remove litter and graffiti from a certain area and there was an instant drop in that area's crime rate.
OhhhThatGuy 3 years ago
Bingo. Rudy did that. Now, there are lots of arguments about whether or not Rudy's campaign was the source of the changes, but I think you have to look at what happened and see the street-level difference in NYC when he became mayor. It was night and day. The city felt safe again. I just think context sends important signals about what's OK and what's not and things go from there.
tlg847 3 years ago
We have a continuity mechanism that assures us we are consistent, even when we are not. Otherwise we'd go bonkers. We are nice, except when we are being nasty. We are faithful, except when we are not. We also seek consistency through our institutions, which are bigger than us and can help stretch that personal inconsistency out into something more meaningful. I agree, civility is a better path than the alternative, but we still gotta have some fun, right? lol
periurban 3 years ago
Absolutely. I did not speak to the unifying elements because I wanted to point out how powerful context is, even on some of those pieces.
tlg847 3 years ago
I have to read about the experiment. Interesting stuff.
LilCav68 3 years ago
Interesting study, Tom. There are some deep, and rather broad, psychological factors involved in creating a "good" online environment. Simply to try and achieve it is a monumental task facing anyone whose goal is to create such a website. Is it an impossible dream?
Moosie
anmoose 3 years ago
Perhaps. We'll see how far we can get. Thanks, moosie.
tlg847 3 years ago
Great discussion. It reminds me a bit of "broken windows" theory. For example, if you do not delete hateful comments from your videos, you will receive a higher percentage of hater comments on that video in the future. There are small things that we can do to discourage unwanted behaviors.
- Paul
Chilldogg 3 years ago
That's an important aspect of any community Paul: how well does it live up to its own standards? "Broken windows" are indicators and small things signal larger ones. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
I agree with what you said, but in a the context of a place here on youtube. Youtube has written rules to deture bad behavior, Yet bad behavior exist. Does it exist because youtube really doesn't care or....does it exsist because the membership is too large to police. If the latter is true then what garrantee's that another website would be able to deal with it better? You would have to limit useage to an elite to avoid problems. So heres a thought, should we begin Internet faternities?
vmanvand 3 years ago
vmanvand....you wrote, "does it exsist because the membership is too large to police."Its simply not possible.If you hire captains, people to help monitor, truth is, your dealing with infallible beings.Someone would be treated unfairly by someone at some point either by accident or deliberate motives.You would have to have a overly censored site & plenty of money for victim mentaliy lawsuits to come.Its an impossible plight to manage even 10,000 people by monetary means vs. profit margins.~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
The Science Tom talks about is right but it can't work in the real world, there is always that one varible that needs to be dealt with, which would lead to as you put it "You would have to have a overly censored site" thus making a site full of elitists. In my opinion the motivation for even trying to do something like this is envy because steve and chad made it work and made millions.
vmanvand 3 years ago
You're speaking about things you have no knowledge of, Cliff. Words like "censors" and "elitist" are your own and have nothing to do with the ideas we're working on. What Chad and Steve have made work is world-changing and worth every penny they've made. What we're thinking about is something entirely different.
tlg847 3 years ago
I appretiate what your saying here but, as you said in your video the creator of the website would encouage and discouage behavior based on rewards, When behavior is not satifactory that person would be removed right? Isn't that what youtube does, and we complain about it. It seems your just trying to set the rules. Maybe my envy statement was out of line but I'm not seeing where it would be better or worse. Just diffrent, what happend when the behavior of person effects the monetary negatively.
vmanvand 3 years ago
I normally like what you say and also like what you said in this video. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how the vision you put forth here translates into the real world. Its seems as though you and others are dissatified with how youtube turned out and desire something diffrent. But the disscussion is here and has always been here, and That's why I posed the question about internet faternities above. Like flavors of Ice Cream. Which I would say can be sampled here on Youtube.
vmanvand 3 years ago
Well, yes. The problem isn't that YT removes people; it's that it doesn't. Do you really think that what we have here is the best that a group of people is capable of designing and executing? I didn't think you were that pessimistic about people, Cliff.
tlg847 3 years ago
How am I being pessimistic? I'm looking at the whole youtube experience as a positive one.
vmanvand 3 years ago
I think believing this is the best community that people can create is pessimistic. So much more than what is enabled here is possible.
tlg847 3 years ago
I agree with you about More can happen than what youtube offers here and hope you guys can do what your talking about but for my needs youtube fits the bill. But I have as you have look at several other sites and youtube is still the best overall. Stickcam comes in a strong second.
vmanvand 3 years ago
will you remove me from your website? What if someone steals from your glory and talk about things that might not make you feel signifcant, brainy, attractive, powerful? What if people do not give you the respect you feel you deserve? you will take them out and so what is this you are creating besides a landlord state? Surrounding yourself with edifiers, the same old arrogance and greed persisting. Yet I stay tuned with hope some break through will happen and you prove me wrong. Be well.
evotelution 3 years ago
You must understand something: you are making all these things up in your own head.
tlg847 3 years ago
Are you in my own head?
evotelution 3 years ago
Umm...no; no I'm not.
tlg847 3 years ago
I think the task also becomes how do you create the context without also making people feel their personal private self is being imprisoned?
As an aside, one of the first times I scared myself and totally shook my core beliefs about myself, occurred in college in the 70's. Along with other students I worked in a state juvenile prison as social work interns...one day I found myself threatened and did a "take down" which previously I thought I'd never do. I was stunned at how violently I did it.
jrsnyderjr 3 years ago
"Imprisoned" is a strong word in an online context, jr. Balance is never easy nor perfect.
It is amazing to actually experience oneself doing something like you describe. Kind of an out-of-body experience, almost. Thanks for bringing that up.
tlg847 3 years ago
Excellent points, as always. Many thanks for the links.
BTW I hope that I cleared up my stance on the CC, in the latest YTA vid. I did misspeak about the emails. I inserted a text correction over the clip, and in the description. If anything that was said was inaccurate, please let me know.
I appreciate, and respect, your opinion. I hope you, and yours, have a good week. -Allen
JustA11en 3 years ago
Thanks, A11en. I have really enjoyed your YTA videos since your return. I completely understand and respect your opinions regarding the CC. Remember, we are the first; others will be able to take up our small start to try to open up communication with YT.
tlg847 3 years ago
Sorry, I want to finish this comment. As I was saying before, the Internet allows for people to feel free to act unacceptably because their Internet self cannot be connected to their real self. This division allows people not to violate the idea of constant self. Does a site that encourages civility need to put an end to anonymity? How can a social website create personal accountability?
bmoreg 3 years ago
bmoreq...you wrote, " their Internet self cannot be connected to their real self. This division allows people not to violate the idea of constant self."
Excellent! Very true! I would also argue that a desensitization to people is evident in their real self too. There would be a level of conscious even on the Internet to curve the freedom of ill willed expressions where their consequences exists soley in the typing of words. ~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
Yes, I don't know if you saw my previous video but I did go on for quite a while about the notion that the online world isn't real! In real life, people create accountability to one another, with help from tools and structures. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
As someone who studied psychology for a short stint in high school and college, I understand and agree with the basis of the argument. The question becomes the implementation of such a vision. How do you create a community where expressing your most civil self is encouraged? On the benefits and problems of the Internet is that anonymity gives people the feeling that they can get away with unacceptable behavior since it cannot be traced back to the really them.
bmoreg 3 years ago
A big part of the internet culture is formed by the people who participate in online gaming. If you saw the behaviour that occurs on xbox live and some of these mmorpg sites you would be shocked. There are plenty of videos and articles documenting this. I know I will get flamed for what I just said but it is true. Some of the violence has spilled over in real life. There are children and adults that are murdering each other over a game. Who's to blame? The admins and the gamers.
beornborg 3 years ago
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I know mmorpgs are incubators for the kinds of social interactions that will become commonplace online. These are new situations for us and we are figuring all of this out as we go.
tlg847 3 years ago
Part 1~ Personally, the biggest let down in life for me is that few know themselves at all. I dont beleive that man can be a predictor of who he is. You just cant know until you have been through something over and over to know if your strong in a certain situation. I find, and not trying to sound cruel...but I think of most people as "Illusions"...~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
part 2~ they feel lies as true...They feel a reality that doesnt exist in who they are or who they are in their relationships. A person who 10 years down the road is very near to who they said they were they day you met them, is so rare, that I only know of 2 in my real life that who WERE who they said they were and WHO I found them to be. Thats pretty frickin alarming cause I have met many in real life. It brings out the loner in me because I am tired of surprises. ~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
I think that people underestimate their own complexity. Each person, when meeting another, presents what they think of as the most socially acceptable version of themselves - a fact often made very clear in cross-cultural misunderstandings. I am not sure if people are "illusions," but most people do not, and I think could not, function conscious of the reality that they are capable of true evil.
bmoreg 3 years ago
Part 1~ bmoreg, I think a humble person(if one truly exists)would realize that they are always capable of doing what they couldnt imagine. It certainly would keep them less judgemental. In terms of illusions, so many describe themselves as you say, "presenting" a side that is socially acceptable...~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
Part 2~ bmoreg, that is a great description of the Illusions but the sad part is they feel it is true despite the evidence. Getting to know someone is about the "unveiling of self." If a person needs to be "seen as" something...than the true self is never presented. Even the rebel is often presenting themselves as a rebel to be socially unacceptable with true motives of gaining the respect from the society group. Its still fake. ~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago
All of this is marvelously complex. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, Raven. Thanks.
tlg847 3 years ago
tlg847, I appreciate this video. Very insighful and loved watching it. ~Raven
RadicalComedy 3 years ago