"The Ebionites rejected the virgin birth"? Evidence Please

[ChrolliFansite]

@smadewell ... Paul was anything but Torah observant. Everything he taught was completely against the Torah and the Jewish people. Paul/Saul was called to appear before Ya'akov and the Disciples in Jerusalem for the 2nd and last time to explain he continued teachings that he had been told to cease in .. He was then declared to be a Pervert ( one who perverts the word of G-D ) and his teachings declared to be Heretic. This was only days before his arrest by the Romans in the Temple precincts.

[StephenWebb1980]

@smadewell ...Pauls disdain for those who keep the law [such as the Evyonim did] is quite telling about his own motivations - its amazing how by putting faith before that which has been given by God [such as the law was] can change the entire path of a religion. The letter of the law is understood to be proof of Gods will for man, though mans faith without this evidence is blind to say the least - Paul knew this and that misguidance granted him great power...even today we see evidence of this.

[StephenWebb1980]

@smadewell Why then would the Torah observant Evyonim be at such odds with Paul? Key point: The Evyonim were Torah observant and NOT Torah worshiping such as you suggest. The particular school to which you refer and condemn for such rituals understood that in keeping with the law that man may come to understand The Will of God, as the law is of God for man to do as such. Pauls animosity towards those who keep the law in this fashion borders on fanaticism - as if those people are a threat.

[Torahrevival]

"Paul didn't create Pauline Christianity" - I agree with this! I'll check out the site.

[Torahrevival]

I'm quite interested in your ideas on Paul. It makes a refreshing change to find someone who is isn't out to expose Paul as only begotten child of Satan! What's this about Galatians and "Cerinthus-esque application of Torahic rituals"? Maybe you could pm me on this (gives more space to write)?

[Torahrevival]

You've put a whole lot of thought into this issue. Interesting stuff. The point still remains though that we simply don't have enough hard evidence on the ebionites to come up with any hard an fast dogmatic assertions, such as those which prompted this video in the first place.

[wayman29]

Excellent overview! Such ideas show just how diverse the community was and how much wrangling occurred. This biggest issue is the misunderstand of Jewish literature. When read as Jewish literature the texts come alive in a much different way and meaning is found not in the "truth" but the truth or the story behind the story. Excellent comments.

[CagedSongBird]

Thank you for the interesting information.

Have a wonderful day, in a wonderful way!

Sending you a smile! :)

(((Hugs))) to you...

Paula

[TruthCeeker333]

The fact that a portion of the Ebionites did not believe in the virgin birth is nothing unusual. You assume a Jewish view excludes the virgin birth, but that is only one Jewish view. And as far as Paul is concerned, please show me where he uphold's the virgin birth? (Not that he didn't hold that view, but please show me where he mentions the virgin). He does not.

[TruthCeeker333]

Typical. Your moving on to another topic because you are defeated on this one. Tell me, did the Ebonites believe in the virgin birth or not?

[TruthCeeker333]

As stated before. You may believe as you wish. The historical Gospel texts are enough to place Jesus in history. Please stay on topic. If you have nothing to comment regarding this video topic then I assume you are conceeding to the fact that the Ebonites believed in the virgin birth.

[TruthCeeker333]

I'm sorry. Did you have anything to comment regarding this video?

[KnockAr0und]

They were prosecuted for being "heretical". Why? Because they did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but that he was a mere human being. The role of him being the Messiah for Jews is a little murky.

[TruthCeeker333]

KnockAr0und,

Thousands of Jews were ready to accept him as Messiah, and thousands did, so how is he not considered a candidate for Messiah?

[KnockAr0und]

the simple fact - he died !

[TruthCeeker333]

You may believe as you wish. And by the way, your way off topic!  We're discussing the Ebionites beliefs. Please stay on topic. Thanks.

[KnockAr0und]

That just proves that even only a century after Yeshua's death people were perplexed and did not know the true story. Imagine where it leaves Christians in the 21st century. Moreover, it proves that Jewish "Christians" were fat distinguished from Gentile Christians, and were aware of the Pauline doctrine, which they considered apostate and distant of the Torah.

[TruthCeeker333]

Knock Ar0und,

You think you can prove that the virgin birth did not occur? I think not. It takes more than speculation to prove something.

[KnockAr0und]

In Uzi's video I have mentioned that the information on early Christianity is very lacking in information, and so I cannot rely on secondary sources. The point is that if there was doubt a few decades after the crucifixion, how can there be certainty now? Just common sense. There isn't much research to do here unfortunately.

[Torahrevival]

I don't see how that reasoning works. Doubts on a claimed historical event do not require us to deny that such an event actually happened. Consider how many holocaust deniers there are today.

[KnockAr0und]

There was no 'doubt' or 'denial'. there was simply a different message passed. The Holocaust is recorded history, and there are hundreds of thousands of people who are testifying. You do not find ANY historical reference of Jesus until Paul's writings. Why is that? didn't hundreds of Jews throng after Jesus? Why do we need an off-course Hellen who never saw him to tell us his story?

[Torahrevival]

What are you referring to specifically about Yeshua. Is it the virgin birth (Paul doesn't actually write anything about that!). Or is it the crucixion? Or what?

[KnockAr0und]

In the earlier comment I was referring to the virgin birth. I thought that was what you were talking about, because that is the main topic of the video, isn't it? When I mentioned Paul, I mentioned him as an apostate, a "Jew" who did not observe the Torah, but some 'new age' dogma.

[Torahrevival]

Okay, well Paul didn't actually mention the virgin birth. The witnesses to it come from Matthew and Luke.

[seeba]

I like to add that only Matthew mentions the virgin birth straight up. Luke does hind about it, but he doesn't come right out & say it.

Mary just asks how she'll be a mother since she is a virgin; and she's told by the power of God.

Without the support of Matthew, Luke 1:30-35 ends up being very cryptic, & becomes open different types of interpretation. Like Mary just asked a simple naive question for her age

[TruthCeeker333]

Excellant video! Very good point that there were two sects of Ebionites, and it is only speculation as to which one developed from the other. One must first establish that the Gospel texts existed in a form without mention of virgin birth. And we are quite aware of Gospel fragaments which predate the Ebionites.