Why do so many people not want to be male, i think i know why, its because of the limited clothes choices, the horrible short haircuts and the genitals, being female is prefferable really. but some decide to stay male.
@nwlman Lol no some girls want to be guys which they really can't and some guys want to be girls that's as simple as it is except the chicks who try to look like dudes look ugly and the guys who try to look like girls almost look better then real girls.alot of them keep the dick its a tragic if it was gone i mean it's more of a negative having a vagina.also that made no sense how is there cloth limited and haircuts having to be short?
@lXxMasterShakexXl Are you kidding me? It's the other way around..Most female to males that i've met are extremely hot as men, and alot of male to females are far too masculine looking to pull it off. Its much easier for a girl to transfer into a guy and pass, then a guy transferring into a girl.
- It is possible for a natural male and female body to have variation of proportion, however there is a limit point in which it may cause role deficiency and therefore the variation is often narrow and sometimes corrected through puberty.
- When the body has abnormal proportion in features, this is usually an effect of hormonal imbalance from either fetal or pubescent growth. For males, Gynecomastia is a common example which breast growth occur.
- Physical proprotion abnormalities may indentify transexuality possibility, however this will not guarentee transexualism definitively.
- Transexual people have an increased symptom or visual evidence of physical femininity or masculinity, this is contrary to the facts feminine or masculine physical features doesn't define the chance of being transexual.
- A medical brain scan is still the most accurate of measuring trans-gender role chemistry.
Wow, that arm thing is interesting! I never noticed that before. Mine don't go out very wide, though... I wonder if this is because I have a congenital hormonal imbalance...
Please turn your thumbs and hand IN so they are flat against you, not pointing outwards towards. If you do that, do you feel your arms still have this bent. When I stand and do what you do, exactly as you do it, I have the exact thing you do. But, by simply turning my hand, so my palms are flat to my body and thumbs are facing forward, not outwards, my arms are straight.
What do you say to someone who makes the argument that anyone male or female, trans or not, can do what you are by a twist?
What I say is, if I turn my thumbs and hands in, they are flast as you say. And when I turn them out, the elbow angle makes it impossible to keep them flat. And, I say that for most men, this is not the case. If a may burns the thumbs and hands in, the arms lie flat like ours. But if they turn their arms out, as I demonstrate, the male arms will STILL be flat to the sides. This is NOT true for women or many m2f transgender folk.
Intersex is a condition where some form of both sexual organs are physically exhibited period. It has nothing to do with how feminine or masculine someone is otherwise. Many transgenders lack self confidence and search for some 'trait' to prove their legitimacy with the sex they are transitioning to. These are usually either the newly transfer or more often the less passable people I'm sorry but I'm watching a really good episode of COPS right now which is way more important to me than
@startha7 No, your definition is wrong. Intersex is a condition in which one exhibits both male and female physical characteristics, not just sexual organs. No one is 100% male or 100% female - we all have a unique combination of male and physical characteristics, but most people fall under one side or the other of the double bell curve. Sure many tg folk lack self confidence, but denying physical truth just to gain self confidence is counter-productive.
@startha7 So, you are saying every feature you have, physically and mentally, it the most female of all women in the world? Because if you aren't the most female woman in the world, then you are intesexed at least a little.
Well, I would say that since our definitions are in conflict, it stands to reason that at least one of us doen'st know the meaning of the word. For the sake of argument, let's say my definition is wrong. Perhaps then we can talk about the issues, rather than the terminology. I'm am saying m2f transgender people share more subtle physical characteristics with women than the general male population does. If "interex" is not to your liking, please supply a better word.
OK well I got a reply to my comment I made 10 months ago that I had long since forgotten about But yeah its all in your head, it doesn't have Jack shit to do with anatomy unless you're intersex
@gigisf1599 Oh, ye of little understanding. Have you even LOOKED at the arms of men and women. Do you REALLY think the angle at the elbow is the same??? And are you even aware of the science called physics? Do you REALLY think that levers set at two significantly different angles will carry a weight load equally? Hey, perhaps you just misunderstood and theough the point was to say women couldn't throw. Nope, just that women can't through like men, which is really pretty obvious.
@TarnishedKarma - Please, this isnt' about 'physics' it's about posture. Look at any genetic female model or actress and find one that stands the way you are. The overt way you're standing is like Gallagher's joke that the only difference between a woman at a tea party and a cowboy is the position of the elbows... elbows out, Cowboy .... elbows in, tea party - YouTube the video!
@gigisf1599 Actually, in or out makes no difference when it comes to elbows. The key is, if a man and a woman stand side by side with their arms in the same position, the woman's elbow will be bent at a greater angle than the man's. It is not about where one person puts his or her elbows, but how his compare to hers in exactly the same position. So if they both put them out, the woman's will be more of an angle. If they both put them in, woman more of an angle, But anyone can go out and in.
@TarnishedKarma - why is it that assume I 'don't understand' simply because I disagree with you?.. That kind of blanket statement is as ignornat as things I hear on FOX and MSNBC. Do you want to discuss fulcrum points?.. are you saying that every woman has the same arm ratio/aspect as you and every man does not?.. and don't assume you're an expert on something just because it affects you.
Wrong. It is not that I assume you don't understand because you disagree with me. I assume you diagree with me because you don't understand. No, I'm not ignorant, as you have asserted. Rather, I have observed a statistical indicator that m2f transsexuals share more physical characteristics with women than the general male population. If you disagree with me, then you must believe that physically, normal men are identical to m2f transsexuals. I believe that is contrary to the evidence.
we did an experiment in grade 7 or 8 to test the center of balance we had t lean over at the waist, feet together and pick up a chair all the boys would start to fall over and need to put a foot forward to stop form falling, the girls could do it no problem. I was the only boy that could do it with out falling over. At this point I knew I was different but I did not know what a transsexual was, but I was so happy and proud to be like the girls in any way, looking back it seemed so obvious.
i know this will sound odd but are there a specific amount of male and female to make a geneticlly straight male or female because the longer i explore and look i seem to find more and more that sexuality is ambigous so to say i think that everyone will have some samesex tendancies and or crush one time at least in there life, i know some one is likely to disagree but everyone i know has had a bit of a homo crush on celebrities some time in there life they would be a little gay for some one.
females sometimes have strong masculine shapes (or attitudes) as we mens do...i´m a biological male & musician, and my brain have something feminine like many musicians do, but this markers u present here got to do with a general anatomic characteristics that we all share...we humans of course.I have a dear friend who lived with harry benjamin´s syndrome for many years, and now he´s a great man! and his body shape still have some few masculine characteristics as we mens have
Interesting...I`m a man and this is not true for me either. And a straight and non-trans man at that (well, definately more feminine than your average man, but still closer to the masculine side of the spectrum). I have also noticed I have female-shaped hands. But mine don`t go out as far as hers (was I only half-feminized in utero then? lol) Still, pretty cool. And, like you, I`m musical too; hm...
@jprt1990 just because you have some female traits dose not mean your not a macho macho man my dear. Everyone is a mixture of both the male and female, you are only trans when your identity part of your brain is female. So I would not say your were faminized in utero since we all start out female, lets just say you were 90% masculinized and 100% were it counts.
@fireflygirl246 Why the condescending response, "my dear"? And why are you speaking as if you know me personally? I am definitely more male than female, but I'm hardly a "macho macho man" and am actually a bit offended that you called me one. I loved doing needlework as a kid, love dance, dislike sports and action movies, cry about as much as the average woman, and throw like a girl...damn female arms! ;) I don't understand why you, of all people, would deny others' gender variance... o.0
@jprt1990 I was just trying to be supportive and say that just because you have some feminine features it did not mean anything, I'm sorry I will be rude instead of friendly next time. it was suppost to be fun and make you laugh a little, sorry I tried, by they way needlework, danceing, not liking sports and crying at times dose not make you less of a man, the "macho macho man" was like the song and I was just being silly. I was not trying to deny your gender variance in any way.
@fireflygirl246 Also, there is no "identity part of the brain". The brain IS your identity. You are trans when you are a man with so many female traits that they outnumber the male ones AND you feel unhappy as your birth sex. Vice versa for trans men. I think Chris Crocker is more "feminine" than most women, but since he does not feel dissatisfied in his male body he would not be considered trans. Same for masculine men with gender dysphoria who wish they were women; they are not trans either.
@jprt1990 now is when I tell you that you are wrong there are 5 different parts of the brain that can be male or female, two are sexuality and identity. A woman with a male sexuality would be a lesbian(note that this is not the only factor in sexuality but it controls attraction). a man with a female Identity would be a transsexual. The number of female traits has nothing to do with it. By the way a masculine man with gender dysphoria is trans, gender dysphoria the medical diagnosis.
None of this is very helpful and will only serve to demoralise transsexuals who don't exhibit these 'distinctive traits'. At worst it can lead to discrimination - at one time it was accepted medical opinion that transsexuals physically resemble their claimed sex. Today we know that self -selection was taking place back then, and that transsexualism is a cerebral condition that leaves no physical evidence.
@Teckychick Yeah, I hear ya, Tecky. There's always been a strong tendency among trannies to prove their "natural femininity" to anyone who will stop to listen. Sometimes, it's a bit tragi-comic, as I have seen, well, definite non-passers who take great pride in some perceived feminine feature they have. Here, someone is providing us with a supposed informational service to show off how natural she is. It happens; don't sweat it. There are probably gorgeous Ts out there with straight arms!
@NVanWendy And, there has always been a tendency among trannies to ignore the truth about physical and mental elements because it is easier (and safer) to just define oneself as a woman and expect everyone else to jump on the bandwagon. Nope, sorry, TGism is both mental and physical. The two are just sides of the same coin and are caused by the same pre-birth hormone situation. Though the exact mix differs from person to person, statistically trends can easily be seen.
So I gather you are saying there is no physical difference between transgender m2f folk and normal males. I other words, "It's all in our heads." I couldn't disagree more. I believe there is something physical at the root of transgenderism. This is supported by recent studies of the brains of m2f, both before and after hormones, which show brain structures very similar to genetic women, but not similar to male or male homosexual brains.
@Teckychick Nope. Knowledge is never unhelpful. Those who wish to deny something because they don't want it to be true or don't want to deal with its ramifications have not opened themselves to the fullness of what they can be and rely on saying things are one way because they want it that way, and nothing more. Not to be rude, but you are aware of the scientific research showing the brains of tg folk are more like women then straight or gay men?
ahem, heya gjals... sry, superstition, missinformation, that want do none of us any good. Don´t you have brain-scans over there in the US? Yeah, they don´t indicate "t" but at least i know why im constantly phantasizing about dessert, that is as healthy as a salad. WAIT! Fruitsalad!!!, imsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingenious... where do i get fresh pineapple back here at 2.30 pm?
K ... there are some Markers that a lot of transsexuals have, like the ring and index finger being the same length like most females have while typical male have a length difference between them.... but its all a bit stupid if you ask me. In the end its only your brain that is the opposit gender from your body and physicle markers dont mather at all, they dont make you to be transsexual. If it did, then everyone would turn out to be transsexual.
@MsFlexxy In fact, brains aren't opposite being male and female, but are actually a range. And that range isn't even a spectrum it is more of a mixed bag of mental traits. Statistically, they fall into a double bell curve with "most" men falling into a certain range of characteristics (both mental and physical) and most women falling into another range. But there is overlap, both mentally and physically. TG folk generally fall between the two bell curves in a less common configuration.
P.S Transexual is obsolete, as sex has nothing to do with transition. Transgendered is the correct word. Men and women are all on such a spectrum, women with narrow hips andmen with wide hips, women with big feet , men with small, Wher besides your imagination do you get your "information.
I don't know her hurt you,... because the differences are minute, between men and women, we are all females at birth, I went through puberty with hormone replacement, I am a former Playboy model, Wife, and daughter. Those of us( the Majority) you can't tell. Get some medical facts, not "What you tink based on the area you are from'
like, just after the sperm and egg meet, they fuse and make an embryo, which is a ball, then as it grows it gets bigger, and then lumpyer, and then it will get notiable arms and legs n stuff, but right at the start they are all female
I tried this, every single guys arms did exactly the same thing as every single girls, straight down unless elbows back, this is not correct in the video. Learn basic anatomy, female knees do go in to compensate for the wider pelvis, that is why for knee replacement surgery there are specific male or female replacements. if you were born male you do not have that type of knee, pelvis or other anatomically female parts. It is not the anatomy that drives the identity. Gender drives the identity.
@startha7 So you are saying there is no physical component to being transgendered - its just all in your head? What about brain arrangement, the corpus collosum? It has been shown to be different in TG folk than either straight men or gay men and very similar to genetic females. Are you proposing that whatever changed the physiology of the brain to make someone transgendered stopped at the brain and left the rest of the body alone?
hahahahahahaha,,,, This is soooo retarted,, most people when they have their arms againt their body either male or female,, their arms WILL be flat,, On this video,, they are not putting their arms flat to their body,, they have their arms facing the front of their body as in their palms facing out,, With arms down and facing to the front allllllll males and females arms will do the same thing ason this video,, hahahaha!!!
@FerneyZan Hello Laughing Boy! Simply put, you're wrong. You obviously have not tested this. Try it. Do it with not just one guy and one girl but with a bunch of them. Have them put their arms straight down with the palms facing forward and note the angle from the elbow to the hand. It really is different, but hey, if not getting the point makes you laugh - the world can use a lot more laughter, so more power to you.
@TransgenderSupport LOL,, I have done more then enough testing for your information.. and this applies to the Majority,, only people with wide shoulders are the ones who have their arms looking different when they place them down in the exact same way on the video.. In case u didnt noticed, this ladies are placing their arms in a very unatural position.. and 1 thing is true, they do have rather small shoulder frames, so yah their will seem exactly as they explaining,
Thanks for observing the small shoulder frame. That is another of the physical characteristics of m2f transgender people, in addition to the arm angle. In fact, there are many physical characters TG folk are more likely to share with women than the average genetic male does. Width of hips, pattern of body hair, size of skull, and so on. None of these is a test for transgenderism. Collectively they hint that there is some physical process at work that causes transgenderism.
@TransgenderSupport Also, In case you have not seen my other post or account.. I am transgender.. am a M2F,, and I find it ridiculous how some people go beyond and above to justify their confusion.. Most real TS/TGs dont go around explaining themselves or bringing attention to themselves. TS are who they are for specific reasons. Regardless what my situation may be, due to my Military Job, I know what am talking about, and unlike so many on here am not confuse..
I agree. So many people are completely obsessed with justifying their transgenderism. It's a shame really. That's why it is so important to observe and consider any evidence that brings real understanding to the causes of this condition. If it is not physical, it is all in our heads - a choice. But I, and most others, don't believe this, Therefore, there is some physical cause. And it may have more observable effects than just that we "feel" female inside our own minds.
Tans-missions.....speaking of which, vehicles---even those with stick shifts, are traditionally referred to she 'she's. [I'm one of those that does.]:)
(i for one just checked out of curiosity, and mine DON'T have the female pattern she was talking about. and i'm biologically female, so hmm..interesting for sure.)
@pibbby My daughter also doesn't have that angle and she is definitely all girl. The point is not that you can absolutely tell from one individual to the next if the mind is female because of that angle, but STATISTICALLY you will find that the vast majority of women have that angle, the vast majority of men do not, and the bulk transgendered folk poloarized toward true female thinking also have the female angle, but not all - just statistically.
@TransgenderSupport And unlike your reply to me, Now you are making some sense,, Like I said, statistics or not, is only due to the particular shape a person has regardless or gender.. The same way a Man, Woman or TS/TG may or may not have that angle, this video DOES NOT in any way what so ever is something we should rely on to determine who may be a TS/TG or anything else period.. The reason why most men do not have the angle, is cause men have wider shoulders so with time they GrowDiffernt
Why what I have observed should be so is open to speculation. And it is not intended as a "test" for trangenderism. And, as I have said, any given person may or may not have this particular arm attribute, regardless of gender. But, statistically, FAR more m2f transgender people have this attribute than the general male population. I have my own ideas as to why, but those are speculation. That this difference exists is not speculation, but is observable, as I have urged everyone to do.
Interesting. My arms flair outwards and I don't consider myself a transexual. I am however a weekend crossdresser. On top of that I've also got wider than normal hips for a guy.
I've often been told (and sometimes not nicely) that I walk like a woman. I've always assumed my wider hips caused that, but never gave any attention to the arms adding to the effect.
You probably "walk like a woman" because you are placing your feet too close together. If they are farther apart, your walk won't look womenly even if your hips are wide.
@klahrissa First, anyone can learn to walk more femininely, but the genuine walk of women (not the exaggerated imperonator walk) is the most comfortable way to walk for those with a female bone structure. We all fall into the comfortable natural gait, and though we can consciously alter it by habit and training, it will never be as comfortable as what comes naturally. The reason women naturally walk that way is because of the hips and joint angles.
Thats so funny . I ran like a girl too and I would get guys laughing at me because of it . You are correct Melanie. The arm angles and indeed knee hip angles can be different. I'm an artist and study male female bone structure.
I did a lot of research on this and came up with a LOT of info to support this. Even so, I would like to see a cisgendered male display his carry angle, just to satisfy my inquiring mind.
I am TS and have a considerable carry angle myself, now I am wanting to take a karyotype, just to know. No matter the outcome it would not change the fact that I am a transwoman. Always have been, always will be.
Interesting video but where did the science come from? I did try this theory out (through shear curiosity) and my arms did flare outwards.
What would also be the purpose of biological and physical markers for transsexuality as well? Surely all we need is an personal awareness that someone is transgendered.
@alex80uk There are many different kinds of transgendered people ranging from cross-dressers to the intersexed. In between is a whole spectrum - a mixed bag of mentalities and traits - a rainbow of gender attributes, both mental and physical, if you will. So being aware someone is transgenders is like saying someone is American - that doesn't really say much else about them. Simply, the wash of hormones that leads to TG of the mind also leaves a physical record in some individual manner.
@transtastic I can't believe how many unobservant people say this same ridiculous thing. Here's the point a little more clearly for you - If you put a man next to a woman and have them both put their arms in the same direction, the woman's arms will be at a far greater angle outward than the man's. The reason you think I'm just turning my arms outward is that you are just looking at the one person and no man side by side for comparrison. I'm making a point here for you to check - so go check.
ok i am sorry if i used the wrong words..all i wanted to say is: it is right that females have a wider carrying angle than males...but it is not scientifically proved that transsexuals have this too...i have searced that and it is not true.the trassexuals have the same bony anatomy of a male as long as they transitioned after puberty
Not exactly. I've seen this in transsexuals as well. This is observation rather than scientific study. These traits could develop for other reasons but they are definitely gender markers. By the way I have trans friends that have more female traits than some genetic women.
@nissel84 You'll find something interesting. As politically incorrect as this sounds, you'll find (generally, and I STRESS generally) that if you divide transsexuals into two groups - those who look, sound, and act like men and those who look, sound, and act like women - you'll find the women-like transsexuals almost all (remember ALMOTS ALL) have the bent female style elbow and almost all of the man-like transsexuals have straight male arms. What it means, I don't know. It just is.
@nissel84 She is right this is correct, ironically my grade 10 science teacher when talking about genetics pointed this out saying that trans people are just fooling themselves because there bodies would never be truly female and he used the example of the differences between male and female arms, I remember because the comment hurt me allot. so it is scientifically accurate if not little known I just never checked before to see if my arms are like that and they are, its cool.
honestly, I like this channel, but this video is silly. The reason you can't straighten your arms is that your elbow is rotated out. If you rotate your elbow in, then you can straighten your arm. It is just culture that it looks more masculine to have arms swing from the shoulders, and feminine to swing your arms from the elbow.
Within the variety of transpeople there are many shades of inter sexed physical traits and transgender psychological traits, I don't think this is one of them, besides, who says girls can't throw balls?
That was actually the point! There are a range of intersex physical characteristics among transsexuals, but one of the most common is the elbow angle. As evidenced by the discovery last week of one of the genes that causes transsexualism (the long form of th androgen receptor), pre-birth hormone use by the fetus is severly restricted in transsexuals. This causes retention of female physiology of both brain and body in a variety of ways.
I appreciate your comments, but your facts are not accurate. If you actually do a study, you'll find that male and female arm angles are quite different - so different in fact, that it is the rare male who has the arm bend and the rare female who does not. It is important to actually gather data. If you do a study even casually on your own, you'll be amazed at the results.
@jonthebaptist666 Actually, you are not correct. Do a sampling. Have some male and female friends put their arms out with their palms forward and measure the angle of the arm below the elbow if the upper arms are held perfectly vertical. You can seaily see the difference. Cuture doesn't change physicality. Swinging the arms doesn't change the angle at which the joints are set. Check it out.
You are comletely missing the point. I am NOT saying that most women can't turn their arms in some way to make them lie flat at their sides. I AM saying that if the palms are turned outward MOST women (and many transsexuals) can't make them flat in THAT POSITION, while most men CAN. It is not intended as an "acid test" for transgenderism, but as a statistical observation which may lead to understanding the root cause of our condition. How is that silly?
The physical traits don't make you a male or female in mind, spirit, life experience or anatomical gender just by themselves. But, if you were born anatomnically male yet have the elbow angle trait, than you share a trait with virtually all women that very, very few men posess. Whatever it is in our heads that makes us want to change sex, it appartently pulls along some physcial charactersists as well, though different combinations for different people. In a word, you are at least intersexed.
This is very educational. You really need to keep up the education of others so people have a better understanding of whats going on with transgendered people and can better relate to whats happening or going on with them. I never knew this fact. I now have to go examine everyone I know LOL Thats ok, they're used to it he he he Keep the vids coming!
... my arms do that too.
darksinthe 8 months ago
she needs to pull her pants down
DaFawky 9 months ago
Why do so many people not want to be male, i think i know why, its because of the limited clothes choices, the horrible short haircuts and the genitals, being female is prefferable really. but some decide to stay male.
nwlman 10 months ago
@nwlman Lol no some girls want to be guys which they really can't and some guys want to be girls that's as simple as it is except the chicks who try to look like dudes look ugly and the guys who try to look like girls almost look better then real girls.alot of them keep the dick its a tragic if it was gone i mean it's more of a negative having a vagina.also that made no sense how is there cloth limited and haircuts having to be short?
lXxMasterShakexXl 9 months ago
@lXxMasterShakexXl What I meant was, boys have to have their hair cut short, and wear male clothes
nwlman 9 months ago
@lXxMasterShakexXl Are you kidding me? It's the other way around..Most female to males that i've met are extremely hot as men, and alot of male to females are far too masculine looking to pull it off. Its much easier for a girl to transfer into a guy and pass, then a guy transferring into a girl.
pancakehead911 7 months ago
Wtf. This has to be a joke none of the arm shit is true
iamnumbatwo 10 months ago
This is silly. Are you going to start measuring peoples skull dimensions next?
jamiegottagunATyahoo 1 year ago
YOU ARE WONDERFUL
bodhissatva6 1 year ago
MMMMMMMMM I was trans for over 30 years but am no longer, but my arms do go as you say, suprises me!
314tudor 1 year ago
MMMMMMMMM I was trans for over 30 years but am no longer, but my arms do go as ytou say, suprises me!
314tudor 1 year ago
Scientific Theory of Physical Gender Roles:
- It is possible for a natural male and female body to have variation of proportion, however there is a limit point in which it may cause role deficiency and therefore the variation is often narrow and sometimes corrected through puberty.
- When the body has abnormal proportion in features, this is usually an effect of hormonal imbalance from either fetal or pubescent growth. For males, Gynecomastia is a common example which breast growth occur.
HeartStrong4ever 1 year ago
@HeartStrong4ever (Cont.)
Conclusions:
- Physical proprotion abnormalities may indentify transexuality possibility, however this will not guarentee transexualism definitively.
- Transexual people have an increased symptom or visual evidence of physical femininity or masculinity, this is contrary to the facts feminine or masculine physical features doesn't define the chance of being transexual.
- A medical brain scan is still the most accurate of measuring trans-gender role chemistry.
HeartStrong4ever 1 year ago
Wow, that arm thing is interesting! I never noticed that before. Mine don't go out very wide, though... I wonder if this is because I have a congenital hormonal imbalance...
ladycheru 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What I believe is that some MTF transgender people will go to any length to convince themselves they're really female
GigiSF99 1 year ago
Comment removed
GigiSF99 1 year ago
Please turn your thumbs and hand IN so they are flat against you, not pointing outwards towards. If you do that, do you feel your arms still have this bent. When I stand and do what you do, exactly as you do it, I have the exact thing you do. But, by simply turning my hand, so my palms are flat to my body and thumbs are facing forward, not outwards, my arms are straight.
What do you say to someone who makes the argument that anyone male or female, trans or not, can do what you are by a twist?
LostSoulLostLove1 1 year ago
What I say is, if I turn my thumbs and hands in, they are flast as you say. And when I turn them out, the elbow angle makes it impossible to keep them flat. And, I say that for most men, this is not the case. If a may burns the thumbs and hands in, the arms lie flat like ours. But if they turn their arms out, as I demonstrate, the male arms will STILL be flat to the sides. This is NOT true for women or many m2f transgender folk.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
I have the arms and the 1.0 digit ratio.. Wish I had the hips! lol
kristitgirl 1 year ago
this.
startha7 1 year ago
Intersex is a condition where some form of both sexual organs are physically exhibited period. It has nothing to do with how feminine or masculine someone is otherwise. Many transgenders lack self confidence and search for some 'trait' to prove their legitimacy with the sex they are transitioning to. These are usually either the newly transfer or more often the less passable people I'm sorry but I'm watching a really good episode of COPS right now which is way more important to me than
startha7 1 year ago
@startha7 No, your definition is wrong. Intersex is a condition in which one exhibits both male and female physical characteristics, not just sexual organs. No one is 100% male or 100% female - we all have a unique combination of male and physical characteristics, but most people fall under one side or the other of the double bell curve. Sure many tg folk lack self confidence, but denying physical truth just to gain self confidence is counter-productive.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
no everyone is not intrsexed. I know I'm not LOL
startha7 1 year ago
@startha7 So, you are saying every feature you have, physically and mentally, it the most female of all women in the world? Because if you aren't the most female woman in the world, then you are intesexed at least a little.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@TransgenderSupport - Intersex?? Apperantly you dont know what the meaning of the word is..
FerneyZan 1 year ago
Well, I would say that since our definitions are in conflict, it stands to reason that at least one of us doen'st know the meaning of the word. For the sake of argument, let's say my definition is wrong. Perhaps then we can talk about the issues, rather than the terminology. I'm am saying m2f transgender people share more subtle physical characteristics with women than the general male population does. If "interex" is not to your liking, please supply a better word.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
OK well I got a reply to my comment I made 10 months ago that I had long since forgotten about But yeah its all in your head, it doesn't have Jack shit to do with anatomy unless you're intersex
startha7 1 year ago
@startha7 Everyone is intersexed. Transgender folk more than most.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
this is the dumbest thing I've heard/seen. Women can throw 'like men' with practice, it's just that simple. Rediculous.
gigisf1599 1 year ago
@gigisf1599 Oh, ye of little understanding. Have you even LOOKED at the arms of men and women. Do you REALLY think the angle at the elbow is the same??? And are you even aware of the science called physics? Do you REALLY think that levers set at two significantly different angles will carry a weight load equally? Hey, perhaps you just misunderstood and theough the point was to say women couldn't throw. Nope, just that women can't through like men, which is really pretty obvious.
TarnishedKarma 1 year ago
@TarnishedKarma - Please, this isnt' about 'physics' it's about posture. Look at any genetic female model or actress and find one that stands the way you are. The overt way you're standing is like Gallagher's joke that the only difference between a woman at a tea party and a cowboy is the position of the elbows... elbows out, Cowboy .... elbows in, tea party - YouTube the video!
gigisf1599 1 year ago
@gigisf1599 Actually, in or out makes no difference when it comes to elbows. The key is, if a man and a woman stand side by side with their arms in the same position, the woman's elbow will be bent at a greater angle than the man's. It is not about where one person puts his or her elbows, but how his compare to hers in exactly the same position. So if they both put them out, the woman's will be more of an angle. If they both put them in, woman more of an angle, But anyone can go out and in.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@TarnishedKarma - why is it that assume I 'don't understand' simply because I disagree with you?.. That kind of blanket statement is as ignornat as things I hear on FOX and MSNBC. Do you want to discuss fulcrum points?.. are you saying that every woman has the same arm ratio/aspect as you and every man does not?.. and don't assume you're an expert on something just because it affects you.
gigisf1599 1 year ago
Wrong. It is not that I assume you don't understand because you disagree with me. I assume you diagree with me because you don't understand. No, I'm not ignorant, as you have asserted. Rather, I have observed a statistical indicator that m2f transsexuals share more physical characteristics with women than the general male population. If you disagree with me, then you must believe that physically, normal men are identical to m2f transsexuals. I believe that is contrary to the evidence.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
Comment removed
RajaJajaJake 1 year ago
If you have to think about being a girl. You're not one.
Creeps.
BTW, I'm a transexual!
Glyvxx 1 year ago
@Glyvxx If you are even looking at this video, you aren't either. "Creeps"???
TarnishedKarma 1 year ago
may I see references to scientific papers stating this angle of elbow
shaithesm0ck 1 year ago
we did an experiment in grade 7 or 8 to test the center of balance we had t lean over at the waist, feet together and pick up a chair all the boys would start to fall over and need to put a foot forward to stop form falling, the girls could do it no problem. I was the only boy that could do it with out falling over. At this point I knew I was different but I did not know what a transsexual was, but I was so happy and proud to be like the girls in any way, looking back it seemed so obvious.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
ahhhhh u r nats
pankarela 1 year ago
i know this will sound odd but are there a specific amount of male and female to make a geneticlly straight male or female because the longer i explore and look i seem to find more and more that sexuality is ambigous so to say i think that everyone will have some samesex tendancies and or crush one time at least in there life, i know some one is likely to disagree but everyone i know has had a bit of a homo crush on celebrities some time in there life they would be a little gay for some one.
teardropchandelier 1 year ago
This is totally ridiculous and not very helpful but if it makes you both feel better, I am happy for you.
taubangkok 1 year ago 3
females sometimes have strong masculine shapes (or attitudes) as we mens do...i´m a biological male & musician, and my brain have something feminine like many musicians do, but this markers u present here got to do with a general anatomic characteristics that we all share...we humans of course.I have a dear friend who lived with harry benjamin´s syndrome for many years, and now he´s a great man! and his body shape still have some few masculine characteristics as we mens have
metallick009 2 years ago
@metallick009
Interesting...I`m a man and this is not true for me either. And a straight and non-trans man at that (well, definately more feminine than your average man, but still closer to the masculine side of the spectrum). I have also noticed I have female-shaped hands. But mine don`t go out as far as hers (was I only half-feminized in utero then? lol) Still, pretty cool. And, like you, I`m musical too; hm...
jprt1990 1 year ago
@jprt1990 just because you have some female traits dose not mean your not a macho macho man my dear. Everyone is a mixture of both the male and female, you are only trans when your identity part of your brain is female. So I would not say your were faminized in utero since we all start out female, lets just say you were 90% masculinized and 100% were it counts.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 Why the condescending response, "my dear"? And why are you speaking as if you know me personally? I am definitely more male than female, but I'm hardly a "macho macho man" and am actually a bit offended that you called me one. I loved doing needlework as a kid, love dance, dislike sports and action movies, cry about as much as the average woman, and throw like a girl...damn female arms! ;) I don't understand why you, of all people, would deny others' gender variance... o.0
jprt1990 1 year ago
@jprt1990 I was just trying to be supportive and say that just because you have some feminine features it did not mean anything, I'm sorry I will be rude instead of friendly next time. it was suppost to be fun and make you laugh a little, sorry I tried, by they way needlework, danceing, not liking sports and crying at times dose not make you less of a man, the "macho macho man" was like the song and I was just being silly. I was not trying to deny your gender variance in any way.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
@fireflygirl246 Also, there is no "identity part of the brain". The brain IS your identity. You are trans when you are a man with so many female traits that they outnumber the male ones AND you feel unhappy as your birth sex. Vice versa for trans men. I think Chris Crocker is more "feminine" than most women, but since he does not feel dissatisfied in his male body he would not be considered trans. Same for masculine men with gender dysphoria who wish they were women; they are not trans either.
jprt1990 1 year ago
@jprt1990 now is when I tell you that you are wrong there are 5 different parts of the brain that can be male or female, two are sexuality and identity. A woman with a male sexuality would be a lesbian(note that this is not the only factor in sexuality but it controls attraction). a man with a female Identity would be a transsexual. The number of female traits has nothing to do with it. By the way a masculine man with gender dysphoria is trans, gender dysphoria the medical diagnosis.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
None of this is very helpful and will only serve to demoralise transsexuals who don't exhibit these 'distinctive traits'. At worst it can lead to discrimination - at one time it was accepted medical opinion that transsexuals physically resemble their claimed sex. Today we know that self -selection was taking place back then, and that transsexualism is a cerebral condition that leaves no physical evidence.
Teckychick 2 years ago 8
@Teckychick Yeah, I hear ya, Tecky. There's always been a strong tendency among trannies to prove their "natural femininity" to anyone who will stop to listen. Sometimes, it's a bit tragi-comic, as I have seen, well, definite non-passers who take great pride in some perceived feminine feature they have. Here, someone is providing us with a supposed informational service to show off how natural she is. It happens; don't sweat it. There are probably gorgeous Ts out there with straight arms!
NVanWendy 2 years ago 21
@NVanWendy And, there has always been a tendency among trannies to ignore the truth about physical and mental elements because it is easier (and safer) to just define oneself as a woman and expect everyone else to jump on the bandwagon. Nope, sorry, TGism is both mental and physical. The two are just sides of the same coin and are caused by the same pre-birth hormone situation. Though the exact mix differs from person to person, statistically trends can easily be seen.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
So I gather you are saying there is no physical difference between transgender m2f folk and normal males. I other words, "It's all in our heads." I couldn't disagree more. I believe there is something physical at the root of transgenderism. This is supported by recent studies of the brains of m2f, both before and after hormones, which show brain structures very similar to genetic women, but not similar to male or male homosexual brains.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@NVanWendy i'm so glad you and teckychik have called her out. i agree this shit does more harm than good.
foreverdakota1 2 months ago
@Teckychick Nope. Knowledge is never unhelpful. Those who wish to deny something because they don't want it to be true or don't want to deal with its ramifications have not opened themselves to the fullness of what they can be and rely on saying things are one way because they want it that way, and nothing more. Not to be rude, but you are aware of the scientific research showing the brains of tg folk are more like women then straight or gay men?
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
ahem, heya gjals... sry, superstition, missinformation, that want do none of us any good. Don´t you have brain-scans over there in the US? Yeah, they don´t indicate "t" but at least i know why im constantly phantasizing about dessert, that is as healthy as a salad. WAIT! Fruitsalad!!!, imsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingeniousimsoingenious... where do i get fresh pineapple back here at 2.30 pm?
TheMrFizz 2 years ago
K ... there are some Markers that a lot of transsexuals have, like the ring and index finger being the same length like most females have while typical male have a length difference between them.... but its all a bit stupid if you ask me. In the end its only your brain that is the opposit gender from your body and physicle markers dont mather at all, they dont make you to be transsexual. If it did, then everyone would turn out to be transsexual.
MsFlexxy 2 years ago
@MsFlexxy In fact, brains aren't opposite being male and female, but are actually a range. And that range isn't even a spectrum it is more of a mixed bag of mental traits. Statistically, they fall into a double bell curve with "most" men falling into a certain range of characteristics (both mental and physical) and most women falling into another range. But there is overlap, both mentally and physically. TG folk generally fall between the two bell curves in a less common configuration.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
P.S Transexual is obsolete, as sex has nothing to do with transition. Transgendered is the correct word. Men and women are all on such a spectrum, women with narrow hips andmen with wide hips, women with big feet , men with small, Wher besides your imagination do you get your "information.
ldyreal 2 years ago
I don't know her hurt you,... because the differences are minute, between men and women, we are all females at birth, I went through puberty with hormone replacement, I am a former Playboy model, Wife, and daughter. Those of us( the Majority) you can't tell. Get some medical facts, not "What you tink based on the area you are from'
ldyreal 2 years ago
we are all females at birth?????WTF?????
Then how come when you have an ultrasound done they can tell right then?
we are all females at birth????
The doctors pretty much certain what sex you are before your born.
Now, cenception thats a whole thing entirely
mikerocock 2 years ago
no not that late on
all embryo's are female
like, just after the sperm and egg meet, they fuse and make an embryo, which is a ball, then as it grows it gets bigger, and then lumpyer, and then it will get notiable arms and legs n stuff, but right at the start they are all female
jakftm 2 years ago
i always walk like a girl down stairs lol my arms go all frilly
kotekotekitty 2 years ago
I tried this, every single guys arms did exactly the same thing as every single girls, straight down unless elbows back, this is not correct in the video. Learn basic anatomy, female knees do go in to compensate for the wider pelvis, that is why for knee replacement surgery there are specific male or female replacements. if you were born male you do not have that type of knee, pelvis or other anatomically female parts. It is not the anatomy that drives the identity. Gender drives the identity.
startha7 2 years ago 2
@startha7 So you are saying there is no physical component to being transgendered - its just all in your head? What about brain arrangement, the corpus collosum? It has been shown to be different in TG folk than either straight men or gay men and very similar to genetic females. Are you proposing that whatever changed the physiology of the brain to make someone transgendered stopped at the brain and left the rest of the body alone?
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
hahahahahahaha,,,, This is soooo retarted,, most people when they have their arms againt their body either male or female,, their arms WILL be flat,, On this video,, they are not putting their arms flat to their body,, they have their arms facing the front of their body as in their palms facing out,, With arms down and facing to the front allllllll males and females arms will do the same thing ason this video,, hahahaha!!!
FerneyZan 2 years ago 3
@FerneyZan Hello Laughing Boy! Simply put, you're wrong. You obviously have not tested this. Try it. Do it with not just one guy and one girl but with a bunch of them. Have them put their arms straight down with the palms facing forward and note the angle from the elbow to the hand. It really is different, but hey, if not getting the point makes you laugh - the world can use a lot more laughter, so more power to you.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@TransgenderSupport LOL,, I have done more then enough testing for your information.. and this applies to the Majority,, only people with wide shoulders are the ones who have their arms looking different when they place them down in the exact same way on the video.. In case u didnt noticed, this ladies are placing their arms in a very unatural position.. and 1 thing is true, they do have rather small shoulder frames, so yah their will seem exactly as they explaining,
FerneyZan 1 year ago
Thanks for observing the small shoulder frame. That is another of the physical characteristics of m2f transgender people, in addition to the arm angle. In fact, there are many physical characters TG folk are more likely to share with women than the average genetic male does. Width of hips, pattern of body hair, size of skull, and so on. None of these is a test for transgenderism. Collectively they hint that there is some physical process at work that causes transgenderism.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@TransgenderSupport Also, In case you have not seen my other post or account.. I am transgender.. am a M2F,, and I find it ridiculous how some people go beyond and above to justify their confusion.. Most real TS/TGs dont go around explaining themselves or bringing attention to themselves. TS are who they are for specific reasons. Regardless what my situation may be, due to my Military Job, I know what am talking about, and unlike so many on here am not confuse..
FerneyZan 1 year ago
I agree. So many people are completely obsessed with justifying their transgenderism. It's a shame really. That's why it is so important to observe and consider any evidence that brings real understanding to the causes of this condition. If it is not physical, it is all in our heads - a choice. But I, and most others, don't believe this, Therefore, there is some physical cause. And it may have more observable effects than just that we "feel" female inside our own minds.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
Tans-missions.....speaking of which, vehicles---even those with stick shifts, are traditionally referred to she 'she's. [I'm one of those that does.]:)
SteveCarras 2 years ago
very interesting. so would you expect many FTMs' arms go straight down?
WhoaKaela 2 years ago
(i for one just checked out of curiosity, and mine DON'T have the female pattern she was talking about. and i'm biologically female, so hmm..interesting for sure.)
pibbby 2 years ago
@pibbby My daughter also doesn't have that angle and she is definitely all girl. The point is not that you can absolutely tell from one individual to the next if the mind is female because of that angle, but STATISTICALLY you will find that the vast majority of women have that angle, the vast majority of men do not, and the bulk transgendered folk poloarized toward true female thinking also have the female angle, but not all - just statistically.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@TransgenderSupport
oh, i know, i just find it interesting because im looking at it from the opposite side (ftm) XD
pibbby 1 year ago
@TransgenderSupport And unlike your reply to me, Now you are making some sense,, Like I said, statistics or not, is only due to the particular shape a person has regardless or gender.. The same way a Man, Woman or TS/TG may or may not have that angle, this video DOES NOT in any way what so ever is something we should rely on to determine who may be a TS/TG or anything else period.. The reason why most men do not have the angle, is cause men have wider shoulders so with time they GrowDiffernt
FerneyZan 1 year ago
Why what I have observed should be so is open to speculation. And it is not intended as a "test" for trangenderism. And, as I have said, any given person may or may not have this particular arm attribute, regardless of gender. But, statistically, FAR more m2f transgender people have this attribute than the general male population. I have my own ideas as to why, but those are speculation. That this difference exists is not speculation, but is observable, as I have urged everyone to do.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
@WhoaKaela Interesting theory, but I've actually never checked it out. Have you any information on this?
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
pffft absurn it body shape that does that
ShayHuney 2 years ago
Interesting. My arms flair outwards and I don't consider myself a transexual. I am however a weekend crossdresser. On top of that I've also got wider than normal hips for a guy.
I've often been told (and sometimes not nicely) that I walk like a woman. I've always assumed my wider hips caused that, but never gave any attention to the arms adding to the effect.
Abasuto 2 years ago
You probably "walk like a woman" because you are placing your feet too close together. If they are farther apart, your walk won't look womenly even if your hips are wide.
klahrissa 2 years ago
@klahrissa First, anyone can learn to walk more femininely, but the genuine walk of women (not the exaggerated imperonator walk) is the most comfortable way to walk for those with a female bone structure. We all fall into the comfortable natural gait, and though we can consciously alter it by habit and training, it will never be as comfortable as what comes naturally. The reason women naturally walk that way is because of the hips and joint angles.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
that was very informative thank you
Diatonic135 3 years ago
thanks, nicely done xxx Jim
greenhawk46 3 years ago
wow. . .wonderful explanation for why transexuals walk like girls. . .
I think I'll favorite this : )
TransexualTriumphs 3 years ago
Thats so funny . I ran like a girl too and I would get guys laughing at me because of it . You are correct Melanie. The arm angles and indeed knee hip angles can be different. I'm an artist and study male female bone structure.
darliegoddess 3 years ago
Thank you very much for sharing this with us!
I did a lot of research on this and came up with a LOT of info to support this. Even so, I would like to see a cisgendered male display his carry angle, just to satisfy my inquiring mind.
I am TS and have a considerable carry angle myself, now I am wanting to take a karyotype, just to know. No matter the outcome it would not change the fact that I am a transwoman. Always have been, always will be.
Thank you again!
MorticiaAddams2 3 years ago
Interesting video but where did the science come from? I did try this theory out (through shear curiosity) and my arms did flare outwards.
What would also be the purpose of biological and physical markers for transsexuality as well? Surely all we need is an personal awareness that someone is transgendered.
alex80uk 3 years ago
@alex80uk There are many different kinds of transgendered people ranging from cross-dressers to the intersexed. In between is a whole spectrum - a mixed bag of mentalities and traits - a rainbow of gender attributes, both mental and physical, if you will. So being aware someone is transgenders is like saying someone is American - that doesn't really say much else about them. Simply, the wash of hormones that leads to TG of the mind also leaves a physical record in some individual manner.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
Comment removed
sammipooh 3 years ago
you 3 need to get out more lol, what a load of rubbish your arms are angled outwards because your turning them outwards
transtastic 3 years ago
@transtastic I can't believe how many unobservant people say this same ridiculous thing. Here's the point a little more clearly for you - If you put a man next to a woman and have them both put their arms in the same direction, the woman's arms will be at a far greater angle outward than the man's. The reason you think I'm just turning my arms outward is that you are just looking at the one person and no man side by side for comparrison. I'm making a point here for you to check - so go check.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
ok i am sorry if i used the wrong words..all i wanted to say is: it is right that females have a wider carrying angle than males...but it is not scientifically proved that transsexuals have this too...i have searced that and it is not true.the trassexuals have the same bony anatomy of a male as long as they transitioned after puberty
sorry again if i used bad words...
nissel84 3 years ago
Not exactly. I've seen this in transsexuals as well. This is observation rather than scientific study. These traits could develop for other reasons but they are definitely gender markers. By the way I have trans friends that have more female traits than some genetic women.
darliegoddess 3 years ago
@nissel84 You'll find something interesting. As politically incorrect as this sounds, you'll find (generally, and I STRESS generally) that if you divide transsexuals into two groups - those who look, sound, and act like men and those who look, sound, and act like women - you'll find the women-like transsexuals almost all (remember ALMOTS ALL) have the bent female style elbow and almost all of the man-like transsexuals have straight male arms. What it means, I don't know. It just is.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
lol! this is scientifically wrong...this clip sucks and it is devoid of reality...
plz rely on respectfull scientific facts b4 u post...
nissel84 3 years ago
"wrong" and "sucks" is not a rebuttal nor an argument to the contrary. If you wish to discuss the issue, make your case.
Melanie
TransgenderSupport 3 years ago
@nissel84 She is right this is correct, ironically my grade 10 science teacher when talking about genetics pointed this out saying that trans people are just fooling themselves because there bodies would never be truly female and he used the example of the differences between male and female arms, I remember because the comment hurt me allot. so it is scientifically accurate if not little known I just never checked before to see if my arms are like that and they are, its cool.
fireflygirl246 1 year ago
honestly, I like this channel, but this video is silly. The reason you can't straighten your arms is that your elbow is rotated out. If you rotate your elbow in, then you can straighten your arm. It is just culture that it looks more masculine to have arms swing from the shoulders, and feminine to swing your arms from the elbow.
jonthebaptist666 3 years ago 9
Within the variety of transpeople there are many shades of inter sexed physical traits and transgender psychological traits, I don't think this is one of them, besides, who says girls can't throw balls?
jonthebaptist666 3 years ago
That was actually the point! There are a range of intersex physical characteristics among transsexuals, but one of the most common is the elbow angle. As evidenced by the discovery last week of one of the genes that causes transsexualism (the long form of th androgen receptor), pre-birth hormone use by the fetus is severly restricted in transsexuals. This causes retention of female physiology of both brain and body in a variety of ways.
TransgenderSupport 3 years ago
I appreciate your comments, but your facts are not accurate. If you actually do a study, you'll find that male and female arm angles are quite different - so different in fact, that it is the rare male who has the arm bend and the rare female who does not. It is important to actually gather data. If you do a study even casually on your own, you'll be amazed at the results.
TransgenderSupport 3 years ago
I could be wrong, what are the studies?
jonthebaptist666 3 years ago
@jonthebaptist666 Actually, you are not correct. Do a sampling. Have some male and female friends put their arms out with their palms forward and measure the angle of the arm below the elbow if the upper arms are held perfectly vertical. You can seaily see the difference. Cuture doesn't change physicality. Swinging the arms doesn't change the angle at which the joints are set. Check it out.
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
You are comletely missing the point. I am NOT saying that most women can't turn their arms in some way to make them lie flat at their sides. I AM saying that if the palms are turned outward MOST women (and many transsexuals) can't make them flat in THAT POSITION, while most men CAN. It is not intended as an "acid test" for transgenderism, but as a statistical observation which may lead to understanding the root cause of our condition. How is that silly?
TransgenderSupport 1 year ago
yes hun thanks for the responce... I have always had that body type as you describe.
hollylove69 3 years ago
my arms bow out.. weeee so im a girl?
hollylove69 3 years ago
The physical traits don't make you a male or female in mind, spirit, life experience or anatomical gender just by themselves. But, if you were born anatomnically male yet have the elbow angle trait, than you share a trait with virtually all women that very, very few men posess. Whatever it is in our heads that makes us want to change sex, it appartently pulls along some physcial charactersists as well, though different combinations for different people. In a word, you are at least intersexed.
TransgenderSupport 3 years ago
This is very educational. You really need to keep up the education of others so people have a better understanding of whats going on with transgendered people and can better relate to whats happening or going on with them. I never knew this fact. I now have to go examine everyone I know LOL Thats ok, they're used to it he he he Keep the vids coming!
GMPNY 3 years ago
wow, very interesting, i just tried it and actually like you said, i can't put my arms straight against my body even when i try...
thescarletprophetess 3 years ago