Go figure: Cenk, the 80s-90s era conservative, doesn't groove on the historical claim that American 'hustling' capitalism IS the problem...shocker.
Also annoying: TYTs history-free historical objections--look up the term 'nadir' in the context of US black history, for evidence that Morris' claim that pre-1890 blacks were less oppressed than post-1890 is a well supported one.
Cenk outing himself as a bullshitter and clown here.
Whenever agricultural or industrial societies meet hunter gatherer societies, all hell breaks loose. In the Americas, this happened later than in most most parts of the world.
Cenk and Ben would disagree with anything Morris says. If Morris says the sky is blue, Cenk and Ben would say that its is grey, red and sometimes green. Every opportunity to disagree is seized without exception.
Morris Berman is a totally worthless human being. So much dwelling on things that went wrong(life's not perfect, things will always be wrong), and he has no notion of doing anything about it.
The truth sets you free. It sounds like a corny cliche and if all you do is pay lip service to it without putting it into practice, then a cliche is all it is, but from 15:33 to 15:38 Mr. Berman shows just how good it can fell to be set free by the truth.
Depends on what America, "they" succeeded in invading, genocide, exploiting resources, creating the most million & billionaires, etc. with slaves and those pursuing the "Dream". The 99% always existed, the 1% always ruled. WE are the Native Americans now, expendable.
1958 the last year Americans were happy and optimistic about the future. Look it up.
WWI and 2, the US was the only country still standing untouched, not hard to figure why we had so much work and opportunity. "They" won, we lost.
@TheZeup2000 I think he rather meant "your interpretation of history is incorrect" if you get to understand the global trend of the conversation. Nice to put some relativism into your intervention, but there is this idea in science that a scholar can describe reality accurately consciously removing his biaises and comparing his approach to those of other's. For well-trained researchers you can only argue that they only omitted some parts of the global perspective as their only flaw.
the demonizing of communism/socialism. call the economic system impossible, dysfunctional, too easily corruptible, what have you, but evil? it's very basis was to help all of mankind, and what's so bad about its intent? the basis of capitalism, on the other hand, was accepting natural selection, or the "strong shall live and weak shall die" ideology.
US will fail because of perpetual war and special interest money in politics.The solutions are simple but hard. But as you can see with a government that has two parties who agree how far they should go kissing special interest ass and taking its money. The government has become too corrupt. US will collapse unless people can be elected that get private money out of politics or a revolution. But then see how fast that trillion dollar "defense" gets turned against the people.
I think this guy is full of it. Yes we are in a period of decline at the moment. Overall, more people are better off today than they were 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, etc. I would say that's a global trend of improvement. And even though our democracy and capitalist society are deeply corrupt, it is thanks to these institutions that life has improved for the masses. We do need, however, to fix the current system so that it works more for the 99% and less for the 1%.
@dwalden74 Life has improved for the masses, but I think too much credit is given to the economic system. We're constantly told about how capitalism creates wealth, drives innovation, etc, but there's usually no discussion about its inefficiencies and other problems. Most of the increase in our standard of living comes from technology, and I think trying to prove that technology has primarily been driven by capitalism is a tough case to make.
I've heard several times that almost all of modern society's improvement comes about because of the huge energy potential of carbon products like oil and gas.
In other words, for thousands of years population was low and barely self-sufficient. Improvements in farming practices helped but this, on its own, was never going to lift us into the industrial age. Cheap energy - mostly dating from the 1860s - did that.
@patrickcorliss Yes, very true, but it takes technology to be able to harness that energy. Waterwheels, for example, are ancient, but it wasn't until the mid 1700s in England that we were able to power an entire mechanized textile factory with them. Coal is abundant and easily obtainable and has been used as a fuel since ancient times, but using it to drive a steam engine takes technology.
in the 90's it was a bubble which popped after Bush got into office...the steady state was the norm...there are always nations that are imperialistic and those weren't the norm
I find this debate over human nature really interesting. Any anthropologist will tell you about the vast differences between societies. Greed has been present in all societies and it's an aspect of human nature, but it's not the defining characteristic of all societies and it's not human nature or even the dominant aspect of human nature. The idea that everybody is driven to rake in as much as they can and that this is somehow hardwired into us is, I think, mistaken.
@devourerofbabies It is mistaken. We are hardwired towards cooperation. That is an indisputable objective fact. It is the prime reason that we have such a large brain and the capacity for abstract reasoning. We evolved to cooperate; it is our evolutionary advantage over other species.
@TheHerpaderpderp Yes, but there is also something in us that wants status, wealth, etc. I think that we all have competing influences within ourselves. The question is, which one do we cultivate? What do we promote as a culture? Our current culture heaps laurels on the value of competition and what competition does for us without acknowledging what it costs us or what it does to us. We admire fierce competitiveness as though it were a virtue whilst eschewing compassion. I find this odious.
@devourerofbabies "The idea that everybody is driven to rake in as much as they can and that this is somehow hardwired into us is, I think, mistaken"
I fully agree. If it were hardwired into us, nobody would do anything altruistic; free open source software wouldn't exist & charitable contributions would be an anomaly. Cenk takes one data point (the Mongols & Cenghis Khan) and sums up all of humanity's 200,000 year existence as being much like the Mongol expansion, which is patently false.
@BOZ11 I think we have both within us. I'm reminded of an old Indian story. An elder was talking to a youth about how his whole life he had a black wolf and a white wolf within him, fighting one another for control. The youth asked: "Which won?" The elder answered: "The one I feed."
I think our society, which elevates selfishness to a virtue, equates quality of life to consumption, lauds competition, and makes heroes of the rich is feeding the wrong wolf. Things don't have to be this way.
@devourerofbabies Once more, agreed. Selfishness is a response to scarcity; capitalism creates artificial scarcity and pits all against one another, e.g. anybody who starves today is not starving because of a lack of availability of food, but lack of currency. We need a more cooperative style of economics, rather than this economic cannibalism. Nobody's adding this to the capitalist death toll, in addition to any profit driven wars (of which we can count Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq (twice)
@BOZ11 Interesting point about artificial scarcity. We can easily provide food and shelter and clothing for every single person worldwide. It is often difficult to provide for one's self because there must be a premium paid on everything. We pay rent on our housing (even if we own it, in the form of interest on the loan) we pay interest on the items we buy with credit cards, we pay interest on the cars we drive to get to work, and we in essence rent our jobs from our employers. TO BE CONT
@BOZ11 I also find it interesting that the amount of money a person is in possession of has almost nothing to do with how much value they have produced. How much sense does it make that a hedge fund manager, who produces no goods or services, makes more than a hospital full of doctors? How much sense does it make that it takes a carpenter who built his own house 35 years to pay it off? How can supply and demand function when money doesn't reflect any kind of real value?
@devourerofbabies "How much sense does it make that a hedge fund manager, who produces no goods or services, makes more than a hospital full of doctors? How much sense does it make that it takes a carpenter who built his own house 35 years to pay it off?"
You have summed up the unethical nature of this system; where producers are worked into the ground and gamblers (betting on stocks and commodities) are elevated to the top
@BOZ11 It has been nice talking to you. Increasingly I find myself feeling like I'm Alice and I'm living in Wonderland and any time I try to talk about this stuff I'm met with blank stares. Thanks for reminding me I'm not crazy. Or at the very least, I'm not crazy all alone.
I'm a bit late to this discussion but would add a general point about economics. More recent society has been divided between the rich, the aristocracy, and the rest. The invention of democracy was designed to redress the balance of power.
The majority elected a government to protect their interests while the rich agreed as the population was calmed through a social compact. In this system, the government's main role is to preserve the balance. Big fail.
@patrickcorliss What do you mean when you say "more recent society?". A tiny power elite and a massive underclass have been the norm in just about every society since civilization began. Also, democracy is a political system, not an economic system. You could in theory have a totalitarian free market economy or a democratic communist economy.
As far as democracy being an attempt to redress social ills, errr, I guess maybe it is. I dunno. Maybe it's just pacifying pageantry.
I'm not sure that selfishness is a response to scarcity. In a tribal system a selfish person gets treated harshly in times of scarcity. Altruism is more likely to help the whole group survive. That's seen in any small "survival" group cut off from society - their natural instinct is to horde what they have and share their resources.
Just lok at how scarcity causes parents to sacrifice for their children. It's a "women and children first" attitude that protects the weak.
But I do agree with you that we need a more cooperative style of economics.
Whatever people's innate characteristics are they respond to the pressure put upon them by the society they are in. In fact, there is much empirical evidence to say that the main characteristic of people is their malleability.
In America, this is shown by people's "group think" on politics, religion, violence, drugs and alcohol. It is partly why people feel so threatened by Islam and "the other".
The opportunity for economic expansion decreases with each passing day. Dwindling resources and massive population growth will decide the answer to the question of America's future.
If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it. US repeated all old empires screwups. Endless wars,greed and corruption in government. Internal strife. Taxing everyone but not taxing the aristocracy or giving them little tax and so on.
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
Nice that Berman headed over to Hartmann where he could at least speak and be understood. The "boys" over at TYT completely let me down when they utterly failed while he was on their show- can't really call it an interview. Thom shows what he's worth, often actually.
I don't think ingrained hucksterism by itself is the explanation-- it's that combined with no in-built checks whatsoever on private consolidation of wealth/power. For instance, there should have been written into the constitution--not amendable except downwardly-- a reasonable inheritance cap of say of the equivalent of today's $5 million. And other basic checks. But yes, like the Hotel New World in Singapore, we're talking a fatally flawed construction-- doomed from the start to collapse.
The biggest problems in society are "Dictatorships" & "Profit Motives". Pretty much all corruption & aberrant behavior in society can be traced to those two things.
America made great strides against dictatorships through democracy & rights, however it has never known how to handle "profit motives" and it's corrupting influences on society.
In this economic "monopoly game" we created for ourselves greed is only natural in the sense that crack cocaine derived from cocoa leaves is "natural".
@oolong2 i think berman's thesis is that teh usa was always a dictatorship of the profit motive (compared with, say, a dictatorship of feudal aristocracy). i read the two preceding book of his "trilogy", and definitely recommend people check them out--especially if you're into thinking critically about american society. "dark age america", for example, has a great discussion of how americans are rude to each other in day to day life that i'd never really thought about.
I would have to give more thought and research to see if USA is in a constant decline. But for Morris Berman to say that he is not sure that Black People are better off today than during the segregation, he has poor imagination and his ideas might be going in a downward spiral. I do agree that the political is a runaway train. However there might be light at the end of the tunnel, with technological advances it has been easier to bring to light corruption. Still money talks....hope...
"Life is about economic expansion" at 5:45. This so true. In the politics and the public debate of America, everything is about how well businesses are doing, and people are supposed to believe that politics is about whether the government should be used as a tool in this narrow area of life. Public and political discussions are of a completely different nature in many other countries.
Cenk doesn't get this kind of stuff because tyt is in a way part of the system that treats people as malleable consumers. Look at all of tyt's pop culture news and all the adds they make. Cenk has a style of making the issues seem easy, and he can be somewhat domineering, especially when he was on MSNBC.
A civilisation can blossom if people want to care for others, share things with them, and teach them what they know and learn from them just because they care, but in our society right now, everything has to be useful, efficient and profitable. If people value their desires, feelings and satisfaction over objective truth, learning, critical thinking and the common good, it will eventually become impossible to sustain democracy and academia. The fall of the West is here.
...that is, they have to be efficient and yield money. It's weird, but even during my early childhood, in the early 90s, there was this widespread idea that money was evil. But Holland got commercial television at that time, causing a commercialisation-revolution like the US had in the 1980, and now the popular hatred of money and the powerful seems to have dissipated. There is a fascistoid party gaining power hand over fist right now, and people can't even see how manipulative it's tactics are.
Berman's argument is a bit similar to that of certain Europeans, both conservatives and socialists. Since the advent mass-consumption, 'society' has been trying to make people feel like things are worth their time and effort only if they are immediately useful or pleasant. So now, people seem to value their opinions over truth, getting their way over being represented in a truly democratic process, and they're supposed to believe even systems of solidarity and collective effort have to 'work'...
I like this author. I have not heard a sociological analysis this interesting since Max Weber's theory on the rise of capitalism. Economics as a field is so bereft of psychological and sociological analyses, it cannot explain socioeconomic reality reliably.
The hosts seem to be mistaking social morality (women rights, black rights, etc.) for national growth. Also, when they do mention economic growth, they are ignoring the very circumstantial reasons for it. Sure, our economy grew strong after WW2 - when all foreign competition was eliminated! Now, foreign competition is catching back up. That boon is no longer applicable.
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
It has failed because both parties have supported a liberal system since 1913, when the shitty tax bracket system was installed, plus the federal reserve was installed. After 1913, every decade brought new liberal programs....the 30's was SS, the 50's the UN, the 60's Medicare, the 70's dept of energy and education, more foriegn aid. Now, we are 15 trillion in debt. Obviously, the liberal system didnt work.
Those aren't necessarily appeals to authority, but other fallacies. However, the problem in these debates is you cannot just grab a bunch of books and cite the facts, so instead you say "it is a historical fact" or something alike.
So instead you just SAY that you read a bunch of books and SAY that you've cited the facts!?
This sort of empty discussion is more appropriate in a seniors home, where the only prize is one's pride or the smug satisfaction you get from preaching to your choir. I didn't get any sense that what he said was anything more than a hypothesis or that he did any research.
Cenk always admire 1940- 80 as USA great time - but that was post WWII - Europe/Japan was trashed and was buying stuff. Now Europe and Asia are more on their feet - technologically (China by stealing :( ) so there is no need to buy so much US stuff .
I'll tell you when things started to get awesome. It was when the scientific process was defined and we started looking at things objectively and basing our reasoning on fact.
The roots of the Euro-American Imperialism really began when it was a British colony by wanting to move westward. Then after Independence,it continued to this day.
Cenk is a proud American, and you can tell from this interview that they are taking this analysis personally. They are having a hard time responding to this guy objectively because he is saying that American is a failure. Cenk on the other hand is trying to 'fix' America and therefore can't accept a failed America.
@bitphr3ak What that guy is saying is ridicoulous. He said that america has been in a constant state of decline since the first settlers. So by his argument, going from wooden camps to the economic and military superpower of the world is a state of decline. America has its probkems but it is still the envy of the rest of world and offers one of the best standard of livings for its citizens. P.S im Irish, so dont accuse me of being biased.
@bitphr3ak Cenk was always one proud american. I remember few years back when the show started, him and Anna supporting american wars in afghanistan, berating the taliban, then he supported the joker Obama and on and on. He has changed a lot of his positions in the light of the various failures of america. but you still ask him about iran, and he will say ahmedinijad is crazy, mullahs are crazy, ahmedinjad stole elections. same washington talking points.
@shankyxyz that being said, cenk is an Honest guy. When he quit MSNBC, I gained a lot of respect for him. Only he should start reading more from academic works. Read Marx, Adam smith on to the new generation of philosophers popper, polyani and so on. He often critisizes Marx on his show and i doubt he has any idea what marx said or meant. why doesnt he call a Richard Wolff for that i dunno.
It pretty much boils to our loss of our market's former protectionism. We did well in the mid 20th century and before the depression, and that was due to the narrowed wealth gap. We had OUR production industry, and didn't rely on foreign markets near as much as today. Now we're just dependent addicts of foreign and international corp products. Built with low quality, selling out our labor, reducing OUR share of pay and profits, all in the name of THEIR profits.
From this Inter. - Cenk You must understand - Some ppl in USA from the beginning are doing well but there is always group that hurts - black, women, huge amount of poor. Never in hist. country build like that survived alw some revolution or occupation.
Aleks the Grate - and of steam in India, Rome- Barbarians, Ottoman Empire - 1683 fail France- revol , British Imp - file, Reich - fail, USSR- fail, USA = 99$/1$ fail -To Big and Fail...
There must be balance-when one group wins- sys fails
@Overkillerr There never will be a perf sys. But ther must be some balance. In Poland we had 20% vs 80 and we was European Leader ( in law, in military thought, in religious freedom/tolerance ) but 1 group 20% wanted more and 3 neighb (Prusia, Austria, Russia) also wanted more... = Fail !
Now when I see USA through TYT eyes - Poland not so bad.
95% health ins. 11% unemployed. Freedom of assembly(no permits needed), of Strike, Free good education to all the way UP, good law, UE/NATO member...
@Overkillerr Yes there are some bad things but we don't have a system of buying politicians. Our SC and Constit Court are grate. Procecutors are indep, no judges elections - SIC.
Yes incom inequ is an issue but we have lover than US. We have like France/Canada/Australia - USA has like Mexico/China/Argentina...
So something is definitely wrong cause we regain our indep 22 y ago from USSR occupation.
If You do not invent - Start Trek technology or #OWS wins - USA has HUGE troubles
Morris Berman, I'm buying your book. TYT was off this time, Cenk's scepticism was glaringly obvious and almost invasive. You should've held it back a bit this time, Cenkman.
Remember Cenk. You are a talker. A very informed talker, but a talker nonetheless. It would benefit you greatly to listen and ask questions that clears the other persons arguments instead of confronting them and trying to put them in their place.
well greed wasn't "part of human nature" til Wealth of Nations (idk if it was that book or another one) stated that it was a-okay to make more money however you could.
There are many examples of "steady state" societies that typically endured for much longer and achieved more on the whole than expansion driven societies like British Empire, which tend to be high profile but short lived.
Between the height and the collapse of the British empire was no more than fifty years. The best case for America is a slow decline like Rome suffered, but I find that unlikely.
Berman 1 TYT 0. come on Cenk, as many ppl have said already, you need to look at the bigger picture. another proud american who doesnt wana admit the truth. i would be surprised but you are american.
Greed is a part of human nature? jesus. in a capitalist society maybe, where you're TAUGHT to be greedy.
I hate to say it, but I think Berman is right, I think all of these problems are symptoms of major social and cultural issues deeply embedded within American society.
imo. the guy is saying that long term its over ....I don't feel that, I think a strong movement some riots some violence, and maybe some blood shed and we're right as rain.
Businesses must kneel before the people more so than what they're doing now.
Everyone I suggest you listen to a course on Non VIOLENCE. When the Imperialists went into India they realized that Indians were NOT greedy. And a capitalist market couldn't survive in India until they thought them to be greedy. And that was in turn their goal for the next 100 years, to teach Indians the Profit motive and create as much capital for themselves as they can.
@GoSuMonSteR I disagree. Greed and violence do not necessarily go hand in hand. Most major revolutions, i.e. the american, french, etc., were violent. Violence is a possible answer in some cases, not every situation is the same. Kindly asking the government to stop fucking the people up the ass in a calm and peaceful manner is obviously not working.
@GoSuMonSteR So, non-violence is a good thing, but there is a time and a place for it, and we need something different. Maybe if protesters demonstrating in OWS stop peacefully standing around, singing songs and waving signs, and start getting violent, then things may start to change.
@AtheistBuckeye You may have missed my point. My point was not about violence but about greed not being inherent in any society. But to your point, I disagree that if protesters were to get violent that it would solve anything. Yes, dancing around in the streets will do little good if they are not organized enough to transfer that movement into political votes to bring in congressmen, who will clean up the system instead of just talking about it.
Chapter 62 Page 419....creation of the UNITED STATES....I.E. UNITED STATES....AKA- UNITED STATES INCORPORATED.
It is argued that it was never "ratified".
Debt Reorganization Plan..# 26, 1950, title 5, U.S. CODE, section 903...put the IMF in charge of the U.S. CORPORATION... that is the majority share holder of the crony-global-FORTUNE500..
over 180,000 fake "gov/fund/dept" CORPS with CAFR reports. Look it up
Cenk is still a true believer. Berman is arguing that our entire system is unsustainable, and I think he's right. The idea of constant growth and constant profit is like being in a car headed for a cliff and flooring it.
@GoDrex no i disagree with him too; the model in history has not been steady state evolution; i mean what does he mean by steady state? no economic growth, 0% or so every year? all countries strive to achieve economic growth; constant growth and constant profit is... pretty much everywhere; it's sure as hell in Europe and it is not doing as badly as the US
@GodOfTheInternets I'm not sure what I adhere to, but I do know that a system of exploitation cannot be viewed as a "success" from my point of view. The system that began long before there was a United States of America is one of conquest and exploitation of resources and human beings. So, for example the history of the USA could be viewed as extremely successful if you're a rich white person, but if you're a native American or African slave you might not agree.
@GodOfTheInternets I think that our current system of civilization is unsustainable. I'm not sure if we can go backwards or if there's a better way for us to move forward. The idea of profit driven corporations is one that doesn't make sense on a finite planet. Constant population growth also doesn't make sense. Both (in my opinion) eventually lead to collapse.
True, in countries with welfare state, good social security, and healthcare fertility rate is much lower, however the welfare state is unsustainable also! So you need social security without a state, which--imo--can be supplied by an anarchist or communist system. So maybe you're interested in bio-socialism...?
China and India are running the same program the USA is that England was... this program is outdated and needs a critical upgrade... time for a new service pack lol
the developed world almost literally sucks the life and blood out of the undeveloped world... we are like vampires... THAT is the legacy of America... look at the big picture
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
@evelynamodifieddog2 I listened to this interview on drive home and after i was done i thought of Three main things. First was how utterly wrong Cenk was and could not see the bigger picture which seemed clear to me and im not scholar, so that made me a little sad for him because i admire him and the show. Second thought was about how brilliant Morris Berman is and third how i cant wait to get home and order his books on Amazon because i cant wait to read them.
@evelynamodifieddog2 Couldn't agree more. I would like to add Naomi Klein, Chalmers Johnson and Noam Chomskys work. They all come to the same conclusion as this guy in different fields. I will def. read these books.
@evelynamodifieddog2 agreed, to some extent. I agree they failed to see the bigger picture (centuries, relative standard of living to technology, education relative to technology), but it was not an epic fail. They didn't give him a soft-ball interview, which i think was good, but they interrupted him a bit too much, and mostly refused to follow his explanations to their end before disagreeing.
The point about restrained capitalism post WW2 was interresting, and should be repeated today IMHO.
@evelynamodifieddog2 I agree with you. The whole time I was watching this I kept thinking, "you're just not getting the bigger picture". He didn't seem to understand what Berman was getting at AT ALL... It was disappointing. Cenk didn't seem to think about America in relation to the world, the balance of world power, and how social policy and national economies are only very small parts of that.
It failed because of LIBERALS. They rejected God and everything good. Their motto is "If it feels good do it". They don't care about the consequences. LIBERALS RUINED THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH.
@Bellita1 As opposed to... their opposition who like to wage profitless wars because it is fun, who like to have laws that allow them to kill people whereever they can find an excuse to do so, the ones who feel they need to have an arsenal and worship the most destructive, genocidal, racist and self-serving of all the gods ever dreamed up by people because it makes them feel superior?
Sorry-- doing what feels good is not a liberal thing, it is a human thing. Liberals just enjoy less violence.
@TheHobgoblyn So we should wage profitable wars? What laws have been passed to allow them to kill people whenever they want to? Liberals love violence, look at what they do every day in the ghetto. Look at OWS it is about Violence.
@Bellita1 If one was at least making a profit or creating good, one could point to something coming from a war. But when you have people rallying to a war for nothing or for empty "values", that's just sad.
Furthermore, how exactly does Ghetto=Liberal? Ghettos are the direct result of conversative policies that don't properly mitigate poverty and those that do committ the serious violence are "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" by "finding a nich in the free market" and exploiting it.
@TheHobgoblyn We freed the people of Iraq from a Dictator. That was a good thing.
The people in the ghetto support liberals and are liberals. Half the Democrats base is in the ghetto. Ghettos are the direct result of people who refuse to take personal responsibility and do something productive with their lives. Yes we could buy everyone in the ghetto a house and pay for everything but why should we. I guess mark Zuckerberg found a nich in the free market and exploited it.
@Bellita1 - yeah, that all sounds good on paper....but not everyone is born into this world with the same resources to succeed. If you are born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, with poor education, with parents who are also born into the world with similar circumstances then the odds are against you. It's not a recipe for absolute failure, but what might be easy for someone (good resume, good job interview, confidence and support) might be seemingly impossible for someone else.
...and the jury is still out on Iraq, and whether or not invading that country was in fact a 'good thing'....it's going to take a bit more time to make that conclusion.
@Bellita1 Yes, freed them from a dictator that the Conservatives empowered in the first place and freed Afganistan from the people who they armed and trained in the first place. Reagan's allies were Bush's enemies.
The only "productive" or lucrative industries are open to people in the ghetto are drug dealing, rap music and prostitution. They are the minority responsible for the violence in the ghettos. Strange how you think them demonic for actually doing what you claim is right.
@TheHobgoblyn Reagan was the greatest president that ever lived. He was just voted the best president to handle the current economy. He beat out FDR. Also, he is likely going to be on Mount Rushmore. I can't wait. It is going to be so Awesome.
What this guy is dishing out is so much garbage. Every example this joker dishes out can be inverted to show the exact opposite. If you think things aren't better for women and minorities than in Reconstruction, you're either not paying attention or a salesman. Look at the fluctuations in the history of nations like Germany, China or Japan.
Berman's view is very narrow in just looking at a large scale historical perspective. There is a dissociation about it that remind's one of the unabomber's ideas. Ignoring large pieces of the puzzle such as the exponential rate of innovation, scientific discovery, crime rate reduction, life expectancy and living standards is not a compliment to his thesis.
Then there is the issue of it being a philosophical position with no quantitative part to support it.
One of the great problems with this discussion is that the language we have is shaped by the society we have. It makes it very difficult to communicate idea's outside this frame of reference without being very verbose or inventing new words which is a put off for most people.
@kileer7 No, I don't have to admit that. That's just the way he is. He's trying to keep things more interesting than monotone. Berman probably understood that very well and was not the least bit offended.
The similarities between Rome and America are too great to ignore. from the military expansionism to bread & circus for the masses (McDonalds & football).
Some people commenting on here need to relax and not take THEMSELVES too seriously. Cenk is debating a subject very fairly and in a reasoned way. If that pisses you off, YOU have a problem. Take a Zantac. Obviously Cenk takes Berman VERY seriously. Not that some of you don't have some very good arguments. You just need to check your anger in this case, is all. It's YOU that comes off as egregiously rigid.
Speaking of a big picture, a message for Morris Berman: head over to Thom Hartmann, he can keep up with you better. By the way, I LOVE TYT!!!! So... pull you head out, Cenk. I thought you understood all this! Read more books, not just articles, please.
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
@pinochska lol, agreed. "Your reality is incorrect..." Berman defended Cenk's disagreements with ease. "Twilight of American Culture" is a really great book.
@arr4gtr the postwar "rally of our culture" was due to lack of competition.The infrastructure of the developed world was physically destroyed by WWII. Capitalism dirty w/ commensurate w/ competition.It's easy to take the high road w/o competition. The period after WWII also had an inordinate % of the population of ex. military. When military comes home to work, they are much more productive than lazy americans who don't know anything about getting a job done and following orders(->prosperity)
The real success is a "happy ever after" legacy. So far, I agree that has never happened on this earth. We only have a percentage of happy people. So if a society has 25% of successful happy people, they are better than a society with 20% happy successful people. Will we ever see 100% happy and successful under a corporate controlled capitalist society? I say no. never. The system needs to be reinvented.
I choose to believe people and societies can change. Change is the only real constant, which is ironic in and of its self. Therefore, my thesis if America is shit and going to fail fight to save it, and fix the rotting core otherwise get the fuck out of my way because I choose to try.
Go figure: Cenk, the 80s-90s era conservative, doesn't groove on the historical claim that American 'hustling' capitalism IS the problem...shocker.
Also annoying: TYTs history-free historical objections--look up the term 'nadir' in the context of US black history, for evidence that Morris' claim that pre-1890 blacks were less oppressed than post-1890 is a well supported one.
Cenk outing himself as a bullshitter and clown here.
terpis 4 days ago
Whenever agricultural or industrial societies meet hunter gatherer societies, all hell breaks loose. In the Americas, this happened later than in most most parts of the world.
sudchn 1 week ago
Cenk and Ben would disagree with anything Morris says. If Morris says the sky is blue, Cenk and Ben would say that its is grey, red and sometimes green. Every opportunity to disagree is seized without exception.
n5017858 1 week ago
Morris Berman is a totally worthless human being. So much dwelling on things that went wrong(life's not perfect, things will always be wrong), and he has no notion of doing anything about it.
KarateKidX 3 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
The truth sets you free. It sounds like a corny cliche and if all you do is pay lip service to it without putting it into practice, then a cliche is all it is, but from 15:33 to 15:38 Mr. Berman shows just how good it can fell to be set free by the truth.
Medvetz63 1 month ago
Depends on what America, "they" succeeded in invading, genocide, exploiting resources, creating the most million & billionaires, etc. with slaves and those pursuing the "Dream". The 99% always existed, the 1% always ruled. WE are the Native Americans now, expendable.
1958 the last year Americans were happy and optimistic about the future. Look it up.
WWI and 2, the US was the only country still standing untouched, not hard to figure why we had so much work and opportunity. "They" won, we lost.
poohORpoe 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Any system, that is based on the consumption of dwindeling natural resources is bound to fail. The USA are just the tip of the iceberg.
EquinoxIV 1 month ago
Wow. How unprofessional of Cenk to get personal with a guest whose arguments he couldn't refute. Intellectual paralysis at its best.
Cenk just made Morris' educational argument for him.
RommulusRemus 1 month ago
"...your reality is incorrect." yeesh.
1) No one's perceived reality is the "true reality"
2) Unless you are an exact copy in mind and body of a person, you cannot tell them their reality is "incorrect"
TheZeup2000 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@TheZeup2000 I think he rather meant "your interpretation of history is incorrect" if you get to understand the global trend of the conversation. Nice to put some relativism into your intervention, but there is this idea in science that a scholar can describe reality accurately consciously removing his biaises and comparing his approach to those of other's. For well-trained researchers you can only argue that they only omitted some parts of the global perspective as their only flaw.
Perdristan 1 month ago
the demonizing of communism/socialism. call the economic system impossible, dysfunctional, too easily corruptible, what have you, but evil? it's very basis was to help all of mankind, and what's so bad about its intent? the basis of capitalism, on the other hand, was accepting natural selection, or the "strong shall live and weak shall die" ideology.
H3770mynameis 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Ah Morris Berman! Your first book in your trilogy woke me up to alot of things. I didn't see that he wrote a new one until recently
WisdomThroughLogic 2 months ago
US will fail because of perpetual war and special interest money in politics.The solutions are simple but hard. But as you can see with a government that has two parties who agree how far they should go kissing special interest ass and taking its money. The government has become too corrupt. US will collapse unless people can be elected that get private money out of politics or a revolution. But then see how fast that trillion dollar "defense" gets turned against the people.
jxsilicon9 2 months ago
uh rot op met je kanker reclame :(
MrReoNetro 2 months ago
I think this guy is full of it. Yes we are in a period of decline at the moment. Overall, more people are better off today than they were 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, etc. I would say that's a global trend of improvement. And even though our democracy and capitalist society are deeply corrupt, it is thanks to these institutions that life has improved for the masses. We do need, however, to fix the current system so that it works more for the 99% and less for the 1%.
dwalden74 3 months ago
@dwalden74 Life has improved for the masses, but I think too much credit is given to the economic system. We're constantly told about how capitalism creates wealth, drives innovation, etc, but there's usually no discussion about its inefficiencies and other problems. Most of the increase in our standard of living comes from technology, and I think trying to prove that technology has primarily been driven by capitalism is a tough case to make.
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@devourerofbabies
I've heard several times that almost all of modern society's improvement comes about because of the huge energy potential of carbon products like oil and gas.
In other words, for thousands of years population was low and barely self-sufficient. Improvements in farming practices helped but this, on its own, was never going to lift us into the industrial age. Cheap energy - mostly dating from the 1860s - did that.
patrickcorliss 2 months ago
@patrickcorliss Yes, very true, but it takes technology to be able to harness that energy. Waterwheels, for example, are ancient, but it wasn't until the mid 1700s in England that we were able to power an entire mechanized textile factory with them. Coal is abundant and easily obtainable and has been used as a fuel since ancient times, but using it to drive a steam engine takes technology.
devourerofbabies 2 months ago
in the 90's it was a bubble which popped after Bush got into office...the steady state was the norm...there are always nations that are imperialistic and those weren't the norm
xadam2dudex 3 months ago
I find this debate over human nature really interesting. Any anthropologist will tell you about the vast differences between societies. Greed has been present in all societies and it's an aspect of human nature, but it's not the defining characteristic of all societies and it's not human nature or even the dominant aspect of human nature. The idea that everybody is driven to rake in as much as they can and that this is somehow hardwired into us is, I think, mistaken.
devourerofbabies 3 months ago 16
@devourerofbabies It is mistaken. We are hardwired towards cooperation. That is an indisputable objective fact. It is the prime reason that we have such a large brain and the capacity for abstract reasoning. We evolved to cooperate; it is our evolutionary advantage over other species.
TheHerpaderpderp 3 months ago
@TheHerpaderpderp Yes, but there is also something in us that wants status, wealth, etc. I think that we all have competing influences within ourselves. The question is, which one do we cultivate? What do we promote as a culture? Our current culture heaps laurels on the value of competition and what competition does for us without acknowledging what it costs us or what it does to us. We admire fierce competitiveness as though it were a virtue whilst eschewing compassion. I find this odious.
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@devourerofbabies "The idea that everybody is driven to rake in as much as they can and that this is somehow hardwired into us is, I think, mistaken"
I fully agree. If it were hardwired into us, nobody would do anything altruistic; free open source software wouldn't exist & charitable contributions would be an anomaly. Cenk takes one data point (the Mongols & Cenghis Khan) and sums up all of humanity's 200,000 year existence as being much like the Mongol expansion, which is patently false.
BOZ11 3 months ago
@BOZ11 I think we have both within us. I'm reminded of an old Indian story. An elder was talking to a youth about how his whole life he had a black wolf and a white wolf within him, fighting one another for control. The youth asked: "Which won?" The elder answered: "The one I feed."
I think our society, which elevates selfishness to a virtue, equates quality of life to consumption, lauds competition, and makes heroes of the rich is feeding the wrong wolf. Things don't have to be this way.
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@devourerofbabies Once more, agreed. Selfishness is a response to scarcity; capitalism creates artificial scarcity and pits all against one another, e.g. anybody who starves today is not starving because of a lack of availability of food, but lack of currency. We need a more cooperative style of economics, rather than this economic cannibalism. Nobody's adding this to the capitalist death toll, in addition to any profit driven wars (of which we can count Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq (twice)
BOZ11 3 months ago
@BOZ11 Interesting point about artificial scarcity. We can easily provide food and shelter and clothing for every single person worldwide. It is often difficult to provide for one's self because there must be a premium paid on everything. We pay rent on our housing (even if we own it, in the form of interest on the loan) we pay interest on the items we buy with credit cards, we pay interest on the cars we drive to get to work, and we in essence rent our jobs from our employers. TO BE CONT
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@BOZ11 I also find it interesting that the amount of money a person is in possession of has almost nothing to do with how much value they have produced. How much sense does it make that a hedge fund manager, who produces no goods or services, makes more than a hospital full of doctors? How much sense does it make that it takes a carpenter who built his own house 35 years to pay it off? How can supply and demand function when money doesn't reflect any kind of real value?
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@devourerofbabies "How much sense does it make that a hedge fund manager, who produces no goods or services, makes more than a hospital full of doctors? How much sense does it make that it takes a carpenter who built his own house 35 years to pay it off?"
You have summed up the unethical nature of this system; where producers are worked into the ground and gamblers (betting on stocks and commodities) are elevated to the top
BOZ11 3 months ago 6
@BOZ11 It has been nice talking to you. Increasingly I find myself feeling like I'm Alice and I'm living in Wonderland and any time I try to talk about this stuff I'm met with blank stares. Thanks for reminding me I'm not crazy. Or at the very least, I'm not crazy all alone.
devourerofbabies 3 months ago
@devourerofbabies
I'm a bit late to this discussion but would add a general point about economics. More recent society has been divided between the rich, the aristocracy, and the rest. The invention of democracy was designed to redress the balance of power.
The majority elected a government to protect their interests while the rich agreed as the population was calmed through a social compact. In this system, the government's main role is to preserve the balance. Big fail.
patrickcorliss 2 months ago
@patrickcorliss What do you mean when you say "more recent society?". A tiny power elite and a massive underclass have been the norm in just about every society since civilization began. Also, democracy is a political system, not an economic system. You could in theory have a totalitarian free market economy or a democratic communist economy.
As far as democracy being an attempt to redress social ills, errr, I guess maybe it is. I dunno. Maybe it's just pacifying pageantry.
devourerofbabies 2 months ago
@BOZ11
I'm not sure that selfishness is a response to scarcity. In a tribal system a selfish person gets treated harshly in times of scarcity. Altruism is more likely to help the whole group survive. That's seen in any small "survival" group cut off from society - their natural instinct is to horde what they have and share their resources.
Just lok at how scarcity causes parents to sacrifice for their children. It's a "women and children first" attitude that protects the weak.
patrickcorliss 2 months ago
@BOZ11
But I do agree with you that we need a more cooperative style of economics.
Whatever people's innate characteristics are they respond to the pressure put upon them by the society they are in. In fact, there is much empirical evidence to say that the main characteristic of people is their malleability.
In America, this is shown by people's "group think" on politics, religion, violence, drugs and alcohol. It is partly why people feel so threatened by Islam and "the other".
patrickcorliss 2 months ago
If America hasn't failed we wouldn't need the occupy movement.
DirtyAtreyu 3 months ago
Morris lives in privileged ignorance.
flake452 3 months ago
I think I can hear Cenk eating...
flake452 3 months ago
The opportunity for economic expansion decreases with each passing day. Dwindling resources and massive population growth will decide the answer to the question of America's future.
brandnutopian 3 months ago
If you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it. US repeated all old empires screwups. Endless wars,greed and corruption in government. Internal strife. Taxing everyone but not taxing the aristocracy or giving them little tax and so on.
jxsilicon9 3 months ago
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nice that Berman headed over to Hartmann where he could at least speak and be understood. The "boys" over at TYT completely let me down when they utterly failed while he was on their show- can't really call it an interview. Thom shows what he's worth, often actually.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago
I don't think ingrained hucksterism by itself is the explanation-- it's that combined with no in-built checks whatsoever on private consolidation of wealth/power. For instance, there should have been written into the constitution--not amendable except downwardly-- a reasonable inheritance cap of say of the equivalent of today's $5 million. And other basic checks. But yes, like the Hotel New World in Singapore, we're talking a fatally flawed construction-- doomed from the start to collapse.
genrlcvr 3 months ago
The biggest problems in society are "Dictatorships" & "Profit Motives". Pretty much all corruption & aberrant behavior in society can be traced to those two things.
America made great strides against dictatorships through democracy & rights, however it has never known how to handle "profit motives" and it's corrupting influences on society.
In this economic "monopoly game" we created for ourselves greed is only natural in the sense that crack cocaine derived from cocoa leaves is "natural".
oolong2 3 months ago
@oolong2 i think berman's thesis is that teh usa was always a dictatorship of the profit motive (compared with, say, a dictatorship of feudal aristocracy). i read the two preceding book of his "trilogy", and definitely recommend people check them out--especially if you're into thinking critically about american society. "dark age america", for example, has a great discussion of how americans are rude to each other in day to day life that i'd never really thought about.
clockworkscott 3 months ago
I would have to give more thought and research to see if USA is in a constant decline. But for Morris Berman to say that he is not sure that Black People are better off today than during the segregation, he has poor imagination and his ideas might be going in a downward spiral. I do agree that the political is a runaway train. However there might be light at the end of the tunnel, with technological advances it has been easier to bring to light corruption. Still money talks....hope...
Walerka11 3 months ago
"Life is about economic expansion" at 5:45. This so true. In the politics and the public debate of America, everything is about how well businesses are doing, and people are supposed to believe that politics is about whether the government should be used as a tool in this narrow area of life. Public and political discussions are of a completely different nature in many other countries.
Ollie9402 3 months ago
Sorry if this was too long, I just can't think of anything shorter.
Ollie9402 3 months ago
Cenk doesn't get this kind of stuff because tyt is in a way part of the system that treats people as malleable consumers. Look at all of tyt's pop culture news and all the adds they make. Cenk has a style of making the issues seem easy, and he can be somewhat domineering, especially when he was on MSNBC.
Ollie9402 3 months ago
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Ollie9402 3 months ago
A civilisation can blossom if people want to care for others, share things with them, and teach them what they know and learn from them just because they care, but in our society right now, everything has to be useful, efficient and profitable. If people value their desires, feelings and satisfaction over objective truth, learning, critical thinking and the common good, it will eventually become impossible to sustain democracy and academia. The fall of the West is here.
Ollie9402 3 months ago
...that is, they have to be efficient and yield money. It's weird, but even during my early childhood, in the early 90s, there was this widespread idea that money was evil. But Holland got commercial television at that time, causing a commercialisation-revolution like the US had in the 1980, and now the popular hatred of money and the powerful seems to have dissipated. There is a fascistoid party gaining power hand over fist right now, and people can't even see how manipulative it's tactics are.
Ollie9402 3 months ago
Berman's argument is a bit similar to that of certain Europeans, both conservatives and socialists. Since the advent mass-consumption, 'society' has been trying to make people feel like things are worth their time and effort only if they are immediately useful or pleasant. So now, people seem to value their opinions over truth, getting their way over being represented in a truly democratic process, and they're supposed to believe even systems of solidarity and collective effort have to 'work'...
Ollie9402 3 months ago
America is failed. So is Morris Berman.
JoesephKatana 3 months ago
I read Berman's DARK AGES AMERICA, which was great! Gonna go out now and buy this book.
JohnnyOstentatious 3 months ago
I like this author. I have not heard a sociological analysis this interesting since Max Weber's theory on the rise of capitalism. Economics as a field is so bereft of psychological and sociological analyses, it cannot explain socioeconomic reality reliably.
piax00 3 months ago
The hosts seem to be mistaking social morality (women rights, black rights, etc.) for national growth. Also, when they do mention economic growth, they are ignoring the very circumstantial reasons for it. Sure, our economy grew strong after WW2 - when all foreign competition was eliminated! Now, foreign competition is catching back up. That boon is no longer applicable.
chrlpolk 3 months ago
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago
It has failed because both parties have supported a liberal system since 1913, when the shitty tax bracket system was installed, plus the federal reserve was installed. After 1913, every decade brought new liberal programs....the 30's was SS, the 50's the UN, the 60's Medicare, the 70's dept of energy and education, more foriegn aid. Now, we are 15 trillion in debt. Obviously, the liberal system didnt work.
calimar28 3 months ago
THIS GUY MAKES TOO MANY ARGUMENTS FROM AUTHORITY.
"I have piles and piles of folder"
"If you just read a little you'll know."
"Anyone can see this."
I don't like this guy at all. He doesn't seem like a man with any scientific rigour. He's a pundit, a talking head.
Matt Taibi and Glenn Greenwald = awesome
This Guy = Man with an agenda, who makes his conclusions first and fills space with generalities and politically driven talking points.
whenindoubtdo 3 months ago
@whenindoubtdo
Those aren't necessarily appeals to authority, but other fallacies. However, the problem in these debates is you cannot just grab a bunch of books and cite the facts, so instead you say "it is a historical fact" or something alike.
GodOfTheInternets 3 months ago
@GodOfTheInternets "just grab a bunch of books and cite the facts"
So instead you just SAY that you read a bunch of books and SAY that you've cited the facts!?
This sort of empty discussion is more appropriate in a seniors home, where the only prize is one's pride or the smug satisfaction you get from preaching to your choir. I didn't get any sense that what he said was anything more than a hypothesis or that he did any research.
whenindoubtdo 3 months ago
@whenindoubtdo
So you never use facts in discussions? Or do your discussions solely take place on the internet were you can look up facts?
GodOfTheInternets 3 months ago
@GodOfTheInternets "So you never use facts in discussions?"
Of course I do. That's my point. The guest didn't seem like he wanted to build a case based on a facts or research.
"Or do your discussions solely take place on the internet were you can look up facts?"
Firstly, no way. I've been in plenty of debates that drew on knowledge I already had some competance over. :)
Secondly, there is NO SHAME in looking up facts on the internet. It's not a pissing contest, you're looking for the truth.
whenindoubtdo 3 months ago
Cenk always admire 1940- 80 as USA great time - but that was post WWII - Europe/Japan was trashed and was buying stuff. Now Europe and Asia are more on their feet - technologically (China by stealing :( ) so there is no need to buy so much US stuff .
Overkillerr 3 months ago
I'll tell you when things started to get awesome. It was when the scientific process was defined and we started looking at things objectively and basing our reasoning on fact.
Darahcos 3 months ago
Actually the Roman Empire fell in 1453 AD when the Muslim Turks took Constantinople.
98bigbutt 3 months ago
@98bigbutt But it would be impossible without decline. Almost nothing ends in a day :)
Overkillerr 3 months ago
@98bigbutt The Holy Roman Empire of medieval Austria/Hungary/Germany was NOT the original Roman Empire of Ancient Italy.
argutator 3 months ago
@argutator,I wasn't talking about the Holy Roman Empire,I was talking about the Byzantine Empire because that was the other half of the Roman Empire.
98bigbutt 3 months ago
The roots of the Euro-American Imperialism really began when it was a British colony by wanting to move westward. Then after Independence,it continued to this day.
98bigbutt 3 months ago
Honestly, I think Cenk and Berman both made good some points. It was a good debate.
Agnotio 3 months ago
Cenk is a proud American, and you can tell from this interview that they are taking this analysis personally. They are having a hard time responding to this guy objectively because he is saying that American is a failure. Cenk on the other hand is trying to 'fix' America and therefore can't accept a failed America.
bitphr3ak 3 months ago 34
@bitphr3ak What that guy is saying is ridicoulous. He said that america has been in a constant state of decline since the first settlers. So by his argument, going from wooden camps to the economic and military superpower of the world is a state of decline. America has its probkems but it is still the envy of the rest of world and offers one of the best standard of livings for its citizens. P.S im Irish, so dont accuse me of being biased.
endabrady100 3 months ago
@bitphr3ak Cenk was always one proud american. I remember few years back when the show started, him and Anna supporting american wars in afghanistan, berating the taliban, then he supported the joker Obama and on and on. He has changed a lot of his positions in the light of the various failures of america. but you still ask him about iran, and he will say ahmedinijad is crazy, mullahs are crazy, ahmedinjad stole elections. same washington talking points.
shankyxyz 3 months ago
@shankyxyz that being said, cenk is an Honest guy. When he quit MSNBC, I gained a lot of respect for him. Only he should start reading more from academic works. Read Marx, Adam smith on to the new generation of philosophers popper, polyani and so on. He often critisizes Marx on his show and i doubt he has any idea what marx said or meant. why doesnt he call a Richard Wolff for that i dunno.
shankyxyz 3 months ago
Cenk needs a course in American history not the nonsense "We're No. 1" guff he clearly has in his head.
nilbud 3 months ago
It pretty much boils to our loss of our market's former protectionism. We did well in the mid 20th century and before the depression, and that was due to the narrowed wealth gap. We had OUR production industry, and didn't rely on foreign markets near as much as today. Now we're just dependent addicts of foreign and international corp products. Built with low quality, selling out our labor, reducing OUR share of pay and profits, all in the name of THEIR profits.
THEIR Profits/=/OUR Prosperity
OtakuRebel 3 months ago
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OtakuRebel 3 months ago
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OtakuRebel 3 months ago
From this Inter. - Cenk You must understand - Some ppl in USA from the beginning are doing well but there is always group that hurts - black, women, huge amount of poor. Never in hist. country build like that survived alw some revolution or occupation.
Aleks the Grate - and of steam in India, Rome- Barbarians, Ottoman Empire - 1683 fail France- revol , British Imp - file, Reich - fail, USSR- fail, USA = 99$/1$ fail -To Big and Fail...
There must be balance-when one group wins- sys fails
Overkillerr 3 months ago
@Overkillerr There never will be a perf sys. But ther must be some balance. In Poland we had 20% vs 80 and we was European Leader ( in law, in military thought, in religious freedom/tolerance ) but 1 group 20% wanted more and 3 neighb (Prusia, Austria, Russia) also wanted more... = Fail !
Now when I see USA through TYT eyes - Poland not so bad.
95% health ins. 11% unemployed. Freedom of assembly(no permits needed), of Strike, Free good education to all the way UP, good law, UE/NATO member...
Overkillerr 3 months ago
@Overkillerr Yes there are some bad things but we don't have a system of buying politicians. Our SC and Constit Court are grate. Procecutors are indep, no judges elections - SIC.
Yes incom inequ is an issue but we have lover than US. We have like France/Canada/Australia - USA has like Mexico/China/Argentina...
So something is definitely wrong cause we regain our indep 22 y ago from USSR occupation.
If You do not invent - Start Trek technology or #OWS wins - USA has HUGE troubles
Overkillerr 3 months ago
Morris Berman, I'm buying your book. TYT was off this time, Cenk's scepticism was glaringly obvious and almost invasive. You should've held it back a bit this time, Cenkman.
Remember Cenk. You are a talker. A very informed talker, but a talker nonetheless. It would benefit you greatly to listen and ask questions that clears the other persons arguments instead of confronting them and trying to put them in their place.
sebsy15 3 months ago 5
Sorry, but I agree with Morris...
BenKenobie47 3 months ago 2
well greed wasn't "part of human nature" til Wealth of Nations (idk if it was that book or another one) stated that it was a-okay to make more money however you could.
kmelfina 3 months ago
I have a question: what happened to Cenks' look at the bigger picture? Did he have a bad night, or did he just misunderstand Berman here?
lukegreen37 3 months ago 2
Egypt, Japan, China, the Eastern Roman Empire....
There are many examples of "steady state" societies that typically endured for much longer and achieved more on the whole than expansion driven societies like British Empire, which tend to be high profile but short lived.
Between the height and the collapse of the British empire was no more than fifty years. The best case for America is a slow decline like Rome suffered, but I find that unlikely.
DarkwingScooter 3 months ago
Cenk, I am disappoint.
TheHerpaderpderp 3 months ago 10
@TheHerpaderpderp I'm pretty fucking disappoint too!
acewings221 3 months ago
Berman 1 TYT 0. come on Cenk, as many ppl have said already, you need to look at the bigger picture. another proud american who doesnt wana admit the truth. i would be surprised but you are american.
Greed is a part of human nature? jesus. in a capitalist society maybe, where you're TAUGHT to be greedy.
kurtnevermind 3 months ago 3
I hate to say it, but I think Berman is right, I think all of these problems are symptoms of major social and cultural issues deeply embedded within American society.
Wolfau5 3 months ago 2
Genk go Read a little about Facts in history.
unreal672003 3 months ago
@unreal672003 "Genk"? Dude, are you a fucking imbecile? His name is spelled "Cenk".
WHIREAS 3 months ago
@WHIREAS LOL yeah don't know how that happened , but fuck me drunk why so hostile about a spell?
unreal672003 3 months ago
Cenk fails to see that the minor successes were mere bubbles.
Solarfactor 3 months ago 2
This guy makes me think of Glenn Beck or Jonah Golberg but on le liberal side. Wacko theories based on little evidences.
frepi 3 months ago
@frepi "evidences"? Haha, you're a moron.
WHIREAS 3 months ago
That interview reminded me of The foundation trilogy from asimov.
Cenk and Ben missed the point of the book/of what berman was saying...
ichbineinklon 3 months ago
Everyone loves to find a narrative to make sense of things.
sckchui 3 months ago
The day that I can, I'm crossing the Canadian boarder in a heart beat, legally or not.
AtheistBuckeye 3 months ago
Yeah, Cenk! Read a little history & you'll see it!
MirraSyren 3 months ago
Check out the two part series featuring Chalmers Johnson:
(i) The BLOWBACK SYNDROME: Oil Wars and Overreach; and, (ii) DECLINE of EMPIRES: The Signs of Decay
Both parts contain an excellent analysis of the case for US empire as well as several compelling arguments for why the US empire is in decline.
0gods 3 months ago
imo. the guy is saying that long term its over ....I don't feel that, I think a strong movement some riots some violence, and maybe some blood shed and we're right as rain.
Businesses must kneel before the people more so than what they're doing now.
bangurdead102 3 months ago
Everyone I suggest you listen to a course on Non VIOLENCE. When the Imperialists went into India they realized that Indians were NOT greedy. And a capitalist market couldn't survive in India until they thought them to be greedy. And that was in turn their goal for the next 100 years, to teach Indians the Profit motive and create as much capital for themselves as they can.
GoSuMonSteR 3 months ago
@GoSuMonSteR I disagree. Greed and violence do not necessarily go hand in hand. Most major revolutions, i.e. the american, french, etc., were violent. Violence is a possible answer in some cases, not every situation is the same. Kindly asking the government to stop fucking the people up the ass in a calm and peaceful manner is obviously not working.
AtheistBuckeye 3 months ago
@GoSuMonSteR So, non-violence is a good thing, but there is a time and a place for it, and we need something different. Maybe if protesters demonstrating in OWS stop peacefully standing around, singing songs and waving signs, and start getting violent, then things may start to change.
AtheistBuckeye 3 months ago
@AtheistBuckeye You may have missed my point. My point was not about violence but about greed not being inherent in any society. But to your point, I disagree that if protesters were to get violent that it would solve anything. Yes, dancing around in the streets will do little good if they are not organized enough to transfer that movement into political votes to bring in congressmen, who will clean up the system instead of just talking about it.
GoSuMonSteR 3 months ago
This author has some good points, some terrible points, Cenk has some points and overall I really enjoyed listening to this guy.
GigaBoost 3 months ago
How is Wolf-Pac doing, any way?
GigaBoost 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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over 180,000 fake "gov/fund/dept" CORPS with CAFR reports. Look it up
IronRangeSurvival 3 months ago
Great author, I read the first book damn near ten years ago and it was awesome.
JonPaulPrime 3 months ago
The American disease is that we can't seem to envision that there could be another way to live.
GoDrex 3 months ago
Cenk is still a true believer. Berman is arguing that our entire system is unsustainable, and I think he's right. The idea of constant growth and constant profit is like being in a car headed for a cliff and flooring it.
GoDrex 3 months ago 24
@GoDrex no i disagree with him too; the model in history has not been steady state evolution; i mean what does he mean by steady state? no economic growth, 0% or so every year? all countries strive to achieve economic growth; constant growth and constant profit is... pretty much everywhere; it's sure as hell in Europe and it is not doing as badly as the US
bbphnix 3 months ago
@GoDrex
May I ask you what politics you adhere to? Marxism, anarchism, socialism, or none of the above?
GodOfTheInternets 3 months ago
@GodOfTheInternets I'm not sure what I adhere to, but I do know that a system of exploitation cannot be viewed as a "success" from my point of view. The system that began long before there was a United States of America is one of conquest and exploitation of resources and human beings. So, for example the history of the USA could be viewed as extremely successful if you're a rich white person, but if you're a native American or African slave you might not agree.
GoDrex 3 months ago
@GodOfTheInternets I think that our current system of civilization is unsustainable. I'm not sure if we can go backwards or if there's a better way for us to move forward. The idea of profit driven corporations is one that doesn't make sense on a finite planet. Constant population growth also doesn't make sense. Both (in my opinion) eventually lead to collapse.
GoDrex 3 months ago
@GoDrex
True, in countries with welfare state, good social security, and healthcare fertility rate is much lower, however the welfare state is unsustainable also! So you need social security without a state, which--imo--can be supplied by an anarchist or communist system. So maybe you're interested in bio-socialism...?
GodOfTheInternets 3 months ago
the author gets it!!
China and India are running the same program the USA is that England was... this program is outdated and needs a critical upgrade... time for a new service pack lol
MrLesWhite 3 months ago
the developed world almost literally sucks the life and blood out of the undeveloped world... we are like vampires... THAT is the legacy of America... look at the big picture
MrLesWhite 3 months ago
@StartRenaissance2012 where is your proof of that?
FSFchannel 3 months ago
"Yeah, I'm corrupt. But everybody's doing it... "
The pendulum of history has long swung out in favor of the corrupt insiders. When it swings back, lots of heads will roll.
As for Berman's "steady state" societies - that was called Medieval Europe, where everybody was under the thumb of the local warlords.
audadvnc 3 months ago
libcom.org !
GeorgeDuroy75 3 months ago
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago 30
@evelynamodifieddog2 I listened to this interview on drive home and after i was done i thought of Three main things. First was how utterly wrong Cenk was and could not see the bigger picture which seemed clear to me and im not scholar, so that made me a little sad for him because i admire him and the show. Second thought was about how brilliant Morris Berman is and third how i cant wait to get home and order his books on Amazon because i cant wait to read them.
metahelix 3 months ago 2
@evelynamodifieddog2 Couldn't agree more. I would like to add Naomi Klein, Chalmers Johnson and Noam Chomskys work. They all come to the same conclusion as this guy in different fields. I will def. read these books.
blakkelure 3 months ago 2
@evelynamodifieddog2 agreed, to some extent. I agree they failed to see the bigger picture (centuries, relative standard of living to technology, education relative to technology), but it was not an epic fail. They didn't give him a soft-ball interview, which i think was good, but they interrupted him a bit too much, and mostly refused to follow his explanations to their end before disagreeing.
The point about restrained capitalism post WW2 was interresting, and should be repeated today IMHO.
gulllars 3 months ago
@evelynamodifieddog2 I agree with you. The whole time I was watching this I kept thinking, "you're just not getting the bigger picture". He didn't seem to understand what Berman was getting at AT ALL... It was disappointing. Cenk didn't seem to think about America in relation to the world, the balance of world power, and how social policy and national economies are only very small parts of that.
MiniZee 3 months ago
i don't agree at the end of ww11 we went into a period of great expansion
dragonflychainsaw 3 months ago
It failed because of LIBERALS. They rejected God and everything good. Their motto is "If it feels good do it". They don't care about the consequences. LIBERALS RUINED THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH.
Bellita1 3 months ago
@Bellita1 Ahahahah, oh you.
TiradeFaction 3 months ago
@Bellita1 lol.
Kuckti15 3 months ago
@Bellita1 As opposed to... their opposition who like to wage profitless wars because it is fun, who like to have laws that allow them to kill people whereever they can find an excuse to do so, the ones who feel they need to have an arsenal and worship the most destructive, genocidal, racist and self-serving of all the gods ever dreamed up by people because it makes them feel superior?
Sorry-- doing what feels good is not a liberal thing, it is a human thing. Liberals just enjoy less violence.
TheHobgoblyn 3 months ago
@TheHobgoblyn So we should wage profitable wars? What laws have been passed to allow them to kill people whenever they want to? Liberals love violence, look at what they do every day in the ghetto. Look at OWS it is about Violence.
Bellita1 3 months ago
@Bellita1 If one was at least making a profit or creating good, one could point to something coming from a war. But when you have people rallying to a war for nothing or for empty "values", that's just sad.
Furthermore, how exactly does Ghetto=Liberal? Ghettos are the direct result of conversative policies that don't properly mitigate poverty and those that do committ the serious violence are "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" by "finding a nich in the free market" and exploiting it.
TheHobgoblyn 3 months ago
@TheHobgoblyn We freed the people of Iraq from a Dictator. That was a good thing.
The people in the ghetto support liberals and are liberals. Half the Democrats base is in the ghetto. Ghettos are the direct result of people who refuse to take personal responsibility and do something productive with their lives. Yes we could buy everyone in the ghetto a house and pay for everything but why should we. I guess mark Zuckerberg found a nich in the free market and exploited it.
Bellita1 3 months ago
@Bellita1 - yeah, that all sounds good on paper....but not everyone is born into this world with the same resources to succeed. If you are born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, with poor education, with parents who are also born into the world with similar circumstances then the odds are against you. It's not a recipe for absolute failure, but what might be easy for someone (good resume, good job interview, confidence and support) might be seemingly impossible for someone else.
bitphr3ak 3 months ago
...and the jury is still out on Iraq, and whether or not invading that country was in fact a 'good thing'....it's going to take a bit more time to make that conclusion.
bitphr3ak 3 months ago
@Bellita1 Yes, freed them from a dictator that the Conservatives empowered in the first place and freed Afganistan from the people who they armed and trained in the first place. Reagan's allies were Bush's enemies.
The only "productive" or lucrative industries are open to people in the ghetto are drug dealing, rap music and prostitution. They are the minority responsible for the violence in the ghettos. Strange how you think them demonic for actually doing what you claim is right.
TheHobgoblyn 3 months ago
@TheHobgoblyn Reagan was the greatest president that ever lived. He was just voted the best president to handle the current economy. He beat out FDR. Also, he is likely going to be on Mount Rushmore. I can't wait. It is going to be so Awesome.
Bellita1 3 months ago
@Bellita1 China isn't ruined, it's doing better and better.
nilbud 3 months ago
@nilbud Yeah, China adopted capitalist ideas and opened up their economy. OWS wants the government to run all businesses. China doesn't do that.
Bellita1 3 months ago
What this guy is dishing out is so much garbage. Every example this joker dishes out can be inverted to show the exact opposite. If you think things aren't better for women and minorities than in Reconstruction, you're either not paying attention or a salesman. Look at the fluctuations in the history of nations like Germany, China or Japan.
Thumbs down.
YOURINQUIRER 3 months ago
@YOURINQUIRER Yeah that was total hyperbole. Things are definitely better for women, and blacks than the times of reconstruction.
TiradeFaction 3 months ago
Gotta love how Ben backed him into a corner around minute 12! Berman completely avoided the answer.
coladict 3 months ago
Berman's view is very narrow in just looking at a large scale historical perspective. There is a dissociation about it that remind's one of the unabomber's ideas. Ignoring large pieces of the puzzle such as the exponential rate of innovation, scientific discovery, crime rate reduction, life expectancy and living standards is not a compliment to his thesis.
Then there is the issue of it being a philosophical position with no quantitative part to support it.
rahgz 3 months ago
@6:20 ben mankiewicz out of frigging no where
MoMember88 3 months ago
One of the great problems with this discussion is that the language we have is shaped by the society we have. It makes it very difficult to communicate idea's outside this frame of reference without being very verbose or inventing new words which is a put off for most people.
karakzanreal 3 months ago 4
I've been following Berman for over 5 years now, and I have to say I'm surprised at how patient he's been with Cenk.
kileer7 3 months ago 2
@kileer7 Well maybe he's not as childish as you thought.
xyzoneon 3 months ago
@xyzoneon You have to admit that Cenk's tone at times was rather condescending and disrespectful.
kileer7 3 months ago
@kileer7 No, I don't have to admit that. That's just the way he is. He's trying to keep things more interesting than monotone. Berman probably understood that very well and was not the least bit offended.
xyzoneon 3 months ago
The similarities between Rome and America are too great to ignore. from the military expansionism to bread & circus for the masses (McDonalds & football).
xdir 3 months ago 3
I disagree with Cenk, but hey, just pretend he was purposefully playing devils advocate. We got a good conversation here.
IndicaDreaming 3 months ago
Some people commenting on here need to relax and not take THEMSELVES too seriously. Cenk is debating a subject very fairly and in a reasoned way. If that pisses you off, YOU have a problem. Take a Zantac. Obviously Cenk takes Berman VERY seriously. Not that some of you don't have some very good arguments. You just need to check your anger in this case, is all. It's YOU that comes off as egregiously rigid.
kurd55 3 months ago
Speaking of a big picture, a message for Morris Berman: head over to Thom Hartmann, he can keep up with you better. By the way, I LOVE TYT!!!! So... pull you head out, Cenk. I thought you understood all this! Read more books, not just articles, please.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago 2
Cenk, I want a reply. Why did you two make fools of yourselves going after this scholar. You do not fail me often, so when you do it really hurts. I'm Wolf Pac, but boy did you fail this time, and I want an answer, really! Obtuse, over your head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Very concerning, man. Bad nights are bad nights, but you just failed to comprehend this guy and a "bigger picture" in general. Unexpectedly myopic. I've learned something about you tonight.
evelynamodifieddog2 3 months ago 2
cenk got pounded in the butt with the truth by this guy.. at least imho
pinochska 3 months ago 2
@pinochska lol, agreed. "Your reality is incorrect..." Berman defended Cenk's disagreements with ease. "Twilight of American Culture" is a really great book.
arr4gtr 3 months ago
@arr4gtr the postwar "rally of our culture" was due to lack of competition.The infrastructure of the developed world was physically destroyed by WWII. Capitalism dirty w/ commensurate w/ competition.It's easy to take the high road w/o competition. The period after WWII also had an inordinate % of the population of ex. military. When military comes home to work, they are much more productive than lazy americans who don't know anything about getting a job done and following orders(->prosperity)
arr4gtr 3 months ago
this guy is so calm and intellectual...i like that. cheers Morris!
ashwinkga 3 months ago
The real success is a "happy ever after" legacy. So far, I agree that has never happened on this earth. We only have a percentage of happy people. So if a society has 25% of successful happy people, they are better than a society with 20% happy successful people. Will we ever see 100% happy and successful under a corporate controlled capitalist society? I say no. never. The system needs to be reinvented.
rcguycan 3 months ago
I choose to believe people and societies can change. Change is the only real constant, which is ironic in and of its self. Therefore, my thesis if America is shit and going to fail fight to save it, and fix the rotting core otherwise get the fuck out of my way because I choose to try.
Roeshamboe05 3 months ago
Ben just popped in all of the sudden.
Exupery1976 3 months ago