Ooh, there's a presence - a man or a woman. Aged between 1 and 122. Their name begins with a...letter of the alphabet. Diana wouldn't have been impressed with your faking. Thank god she's not here to see this little hiccup in a..ahem..career. She'd have wanted her money back. And what makes Brian Dowling scream - being a total fucking untalented wanker.
The celebrities chosen for these psychic sally readings are just the kind of people I would have expected. I'm sure Jade would have been there too if she was still alive. Wheres Callum Best? And that dosile crap welsh Rugby player Gavin Henson?
What a Con! .. The points made in this reading could appeal to anyone. She's using generalisations that everytime can relate to .. I don't know how anyone can believe this stuff.
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Fucking fraud. I was having a debate with my aunt last night who believes this and she was asking questions like "How, when I go to psychics do they know my mothers name? It not cold reading, explain that"
To which I replied "Its a trick, if people knew how the trick was done, they wouldnt make the money that they do, so I cannot give you an answer to how cold reading works"
I've even have readings at spiritualist churches which only ask for a donation of spare change who were so accurate.I felt sorry for the grieving people who got a message that was wrong and looked confused.
watched her on tv she looked brilliant, went to see her and it was very poor. waste of money. She was getting a lot of confused people in the audience, she was getting it wrong nearly all the time, like it was guess work. It really upset me, as I have seen quite a few mediums and they were spot on.
@magpie7death If you believe in mediums i suggest you research cold reading, Neuro-linguistic programming, SRT hypnosis. When you finally realise whats going on you will laugh that you ever believed this in the first place.
Derren Brown even demonstrates some of these in his show - Derren Brown - Messiah (2005)
@ComputerHelpDude I do believe in mediums, but a lot out there are frauds. I've had things happen to me that make me believe in an afterlife. There are some genuine mediums out there. I wouldn't be laughing finding out that someone has been lying to people. I have recently lost my fiancé at 28 years of age and I have to believe there is something after this or it wouldn't be worth me living. Grieving people need mediums for comfort, but only geniune ones.
@magpie7death - First off - I am sorry to hear your loss, but yes dont get me wrong, i believe there is an afterlife. But unfortunately there are people in this world that take thrive on this and take advantage of us human beings when we are at our weakest. In the end its up to you what you believe.
@ComputerHelpDude thank you, i agree with you there, i don't like seeing people who are grieving being conned. when i went to see Sally Morgan a guy who had lost his child looked confused when she was saying things to him and people say no if mediums are wrong. I felt so sorry for this guy as she brought no comfort to him. I don't know what i would have done if someone was giving me the wrong info when my partner just passed, as you feel so down anyway and have no hope
@magpie7death Maybe there´s an afterlife, who knows for sure? But from there, to say that they communicate with some mediums is just nonsense. It´s just con men taking advantage of the vulnerable. People need family and friends to be consoled, not scam artists.
@ebrobaru i do believe there are some genuine mediums out there who helped me out of my grief. I went to a spiritualist church and they just ask for some small change at the beginning of the service, they aren't in it to con people, or to get famous. every week there is a different medium and they told me personal things that my partner would say to me that only i knew. It got me out of my grief, as i couldnt be consoled by my family, i needed him to tell me he was ok.
@magpie7death also i told him to prove to me he existed by saying a certain thing and he came through saying it, when i next went to church. They mentioned things i had said to certain people, that no one would have known about. He did this to prove he is with me and still exhists. When he passed my senses got hightened and i feel them draw close to me from time to time, i know it sounds crazy, but i do. But as i said there are plenty of frauds out there as well
@magpie7death What they do is no different than "commercial psychics" do. Maybe they aren´t for the big money, because they work in volume. But the fact is that they do use the exact techniques that psychics use. If you needed a stranger to tell you fabricated leis to make you feel better, that´s your choice. But being lied to I guess it´s hardly what anybody would need to get consoled
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She knows Brian Dowling personally from at least 2005, despite saying she didn't know him. When she was confronted her answer was "The director told me to." So, a paid liar then. Do the believers get it? If you don't be aware others do, so watch you personal psychosis, it will be embarrassing.
Went to see Sally Morgan on Thursday 28th October 2010. Her accuracy was about 10-15%. I think on her show they show the best bits. She was giving reading to people and was not spot on all the time. A very poor show. Save your money and spend it on a good film and a meal. A big build up at the start for a very poor, poor show. A con artist. People after the show looked disjointed. Charlatan. Drop the act Sally, You're a bad ac trees as well as a bad psychic.
this is hilarious if you have studied cold reading before. its so generic and fake to the point its funny, i cant believe people lap this up. "i need to talk to you about money" "yeah im spending too much" " you are spending too much" FREAKY. then saying you need a puppy? if you know somebody who has said on national tv they like dogs, its hardly being psychic to say you need a puppy.
No problem, in fact, to your credit you've provided a perfect illustration of how a sceptic is not afraid to revise their position when presented with the evidence.
I find it interesting that even in the 2st century many otherwise intelligent people would rather reject reason in preference to accepting the comforting delusions peddled by the likes of Mrs Morgan.
The burden of proof is with those that believe this hokum not the sceptics.
As yet there is no scientific evidence for the existence of the paranormal and in all probability there never will be.
There is a difference between closed mindedness and simply lacking gullibility.
@MrAudity I always laugh when skeptics get accused of having closed minds (happens to me all the time). The irony being most skeptics will change their mind and accept psychic ability as real if credible evidence is ever produced. A simple blinded controlled test would do it. Yet you ask the believers what it would take to convince them that people like Sally are NOT genuine and the typical response is along the lines of "nothing will ever make me change my mind". Closed minds eh :-)
indeed, sceptics are closed minded haters with negative attitudes...they scare off the spirits, which is why no scientific study has ever been able to show evidence in favour of the paranormal.
In fact the very lack of any evidence actually proves the existence of the paranormal oblivious really ;)
@MrAudity The believers, such as you, are the ones with the closed minds. You wont change your minds even when presented with the evidence. Youa re the oens that are afraid to accept reality as it is
Can't stand this woman, like all psychics using 'Cold Reading' techniques she's an arrogant tosser, besides Sally had met and given Brian a reading previous to this but only said she 'Knew of him'... repulsive lying woman!
I've watched several videos of Psychics on YouTube, and I've noticed that the people with the most venom and anger in their comments are those who strive to debunk. Anger comes from fear. So 'he who shouts loudest' is clearly quite afraid. Also, asking someone to prove something largely unprovable is just the same as asking someone to disprove something not easily disproved. Or in other words, a total waste of time. If you believe you do, and if you don't you don't. It's that simple! :O)
@coldstoragevideo I think that you are mistaken. Anger doesn´t come from fear, but from seeing how gullible and naive people are taken by these frauds. Being psychic is easy an easy thing to prove. Of course, no psychic would care to do it because their little business would come to a stop
@coldstoragevideo There's PLENTY of anger & venom from the believers too. I think perhaps you are a victim of confirmation bias, only taking notice of the comments that confirm your preconceived view.
Also saying "anger comes from fear" is a bit of a blanket statement. Anger comes from many causes. Injustice, frustration, empathy to name but a few. Have you ever became angry when hearing of an elderly person losing their life savings to a conman? Was this anger born from fear? I think not.
@thenigotoffthebus There are heated responses from both sides, but I just noticed that, on balance, the most vitriolic was coming from one side.
I have no pre-conceived view. Even though I've practiced mediumship myself, I still question every event with an open and scientific mind.
Freud said that all anger manifests in fear - a well debated viewpoint. In your example, you'd fear that this could happen again to her or someone else. You can't stop it happening so you'd get angry.
@coldstoragevideo No I think my anger would arise from my sense of injustice. In your example fear is being used in a linguistic sense, not an emotional sense. e.g "I fear I'm not going to make that meeting after all".
Fear is a very personal emotion and it generally only affects you if the threat relates directly to oneself or someone close. When I hear of random strangers being conned I'm not angry because I'm afraid.
Have you ever tested your claimed ability with a proper controlled test?
Has a side interest, do either of you two think what I say is pink unicorn made up or honest to gods truth? If you genuinely think it is true (which it is) what are your theories and explanations. Leave the cold reading and tricking the information out of my mother aside, they cannot possibly have happened.
@zaftra Why are you getting so defensive? You are being provided with simple rational explanations, yet you keep attacking the people who give them to you. It´s not "our" beliefs. The only one believing here is you. Believing without any proof. That is faith, not science. You said yourself that science needs evidence. Because of your beliefs, it is easy to get sucked into this. That is why, to be reliable, some impartial third party must review what you claim. And since you have no evidence...
@ebrobaru Then it´s a moot point. The fact that you cannot come up with an explanation yourself, doesn´t mean that there is not one out there. Everyone claims that psychics are frauds, except their own psychic. Come on, think about it.
Of course it is not a moot point. That is the whole point about what I have been saying. I have thought about cold reading and psychology and all the rest none of them can provide me with a satisfactory explanation. If some one can come up with other than what you have here I would gladly like to know. that argument you use there is one of those cop out ones a lot of atheist use. We can't explain it now, but we will. You have to bare in mind for every action there's and equal and opposite one
@ebrobaru I'm not attacking, but consistently your failing to read what I say, you yet again have said 'your beliefs' Read every single post I have made VERY carefully, you will see I have not made any mention about any belief one way or the other until recently and then it was one of scepticism. Your mind is so closed on the subject that you think I am saying one thing but I'm not. I also have clearly said I do not have the evidence to prove it so it remains anecdotal, ...
so where you are getting this anecdotal as proof I have no idea. You also brought in the pink unicorn in your living room, or words to that effect. You will claim this is making some valid point, but what in fact it is doing is calling someone a liar (again, why I have no respect for that type of analogy). And this leads me on to what you two are doing yet seem unable to see it... You either are trying to claim that what I observed is somehow a lie and despite what I say to the contrary....
IF the story is true then clearly you have been dupe because you don't have the intelligence to see when you are. Both of these tend to be somewhat offensive, but the latter is staggeringly ignorant, condescending, close minded and arrogant. Because of YOUR believes (which naturally are correct) you are either assuming a, I am lying, b, if true then clearly you have been duped, what you will not accept is C, that in fact the story I relate is in fact true, that I'm not as gullible as you ...
you seem to think I am and that indeed the psychic DID relate something that is very very difficult to come up with an explanation. This annoys me on a few levels, one it's personally insulting to me, two your minds refuse to accept anything but your own beliefs and most annoying, it is totally unscientific. You can't make suggestions about something that happened to me over 20 years ago.
@zaftra Nobody is calling you a liar or that you made your story. You just said that his happened 20 years ago. How can you be sure that things happened exactly that way? It´s human nature to distort ever so slightly the accounts when telling them over and over, especially when they are very old. It is also human nature to tend to exaggerate the highlights of those accounts, more and more every time. I am not calling you a liar again, it´s just how the human brain works.
@ebrobaru For example, take your high school sweetheart. I am sure that now you remember her very fondly. You remember the great things about her and not so much the bad ones. You tend to idealize her. And that´s the image you keep of her. But if look at it closely, say if you meet her again, you´ll find out that she was not as perfect as you recall. See? It´s the same thing. That is why personal anecdotes cannot be taken as proof of anything.
@ebrobaru I am not doubting that you are telling the story exactly as it happened. You are relating it as you remember it. Those are two different things. And no, we a re not trying to impose our beliefs on you. We are just stating the facts. That you refuse to accept even the possibility of an alternative explanation to what happened to you, that is having a closed mind.
@ebrobaru And what is this atheist argument about? It has nothing to with this. The fact that you or I are or are not atheists is irrelevant. I hope you are not insulted by these comments.
@ebrobaru the atheist thing is neither here nor there. That just comes from when atheist use a bastardized form of scenic as if it's proof beyond belief. The things they end up say are very nearly identical here. It just reminded me of it. nothing more than that
@ebrobaru You say I refuse to believe any alternative, yet I said on here today, if someone gives me a GOOD reasonable logical alternative I will gladly accept it. i assume your selective reading missed that. No I have read everything you have said, it is nothing I have not herd and read many times before, it's nothing new. In this case they are not satisfactory for the reason given.
@ebrobaru incidentally your girlfriend example is totally in appropriate, that is remembering personality, not an event. You should be able to remember when and where you first had a date, met, had sex etc, which is more akin to remembering what some one said in a 'message' that was just a sentence.
@zaftra How can anyone give you an alternative when no one was there to witness what happened? So that example, just doesn´t work. Do you remember exactly what did you say on your first date? What was said to you? You remember maybe the restaurant you went to. Maybe the movie you watched. But not the exact dialogues. Same with your message.
@ebrobaru I am not saying that your memory is failing you. If you are a normal person, then it´s normal for memories to happen that way. So don´t take it personally. It just happens this way to everyone. Unless of course, if you are some sort of super human out of the norm.
@ebrobaru No, it's nothing to do with being super human, it is just something I remember very well, it is not very difficult to remember, not least because it was somehting I thought about a lot at the time and have done ever since. It is not very difficult to remember, it doesn't involve complex personality traits nor halcyon days, put it this way, I once remember getting locked out of my car and someone from art collage having to give me a lift home to get the spare. If I told you this..
@ebrobaru No, it's nothing to do with being super human, it is just something I remember very well, it is not very difficult to remember, not least because it was somehting I thought about a lot at the time and have done ever since. It is not very difficult to remember, it doesn't involve complex personality traits nor halcyon days, put it this way, I once remember getting locked out of my car and someone from art collage having to give me a lift home to get the spare. If I told you this..
@zaftra So you are saying to me that you are different than every other person around. Because what I described is a very common thing that happens to everyone. So you haven´t heard any reasonable explanation yet? We have told you several ones, and yet you decided not to believe any. That´s your choice of course, but talk about a closed mind. So, since you don´t have any other explanation then you immediately think that this lady had supernatural powers. How is that more believable than others?
@ebrobaru your grasping at straws now. Quote me and show me one post here where I have claimed she has super natural powers! I'm afraid you just can't put words in peoples mouth because it suites your argument.You told me several explanations, all I have herd before, in this case, I have to reject them because they do they do not explain what I witnessed. What exactly do you want me to do here? Just except what you say? oh silly me, you have completely convinced me, and I must be wrong, ...
I must have been duped, my memory after all this time must be playing tricks one me. You seem to be talking as if you was there and witness this yourself. Cold/ hot reading, memory tricks and all the rest do not explain it. Why don't you just try and realise that sometimes something may not fit your beliefs and an alternative must be sort. That's science my friend. Here's an axiom of science - If what you observe does not fit the questions you ask - ask different questions.
@zaftra So, what is then the explanation of what happened to you? Huh? That this lady had a "gift"? Isn´t that supernatural? You have no idea of how science works, and you are the one with a closed mind. Obviously you are so arrogant that you cannot admit that they might be another explanation no matter the evidence shown to you. This has nothing to do with my beliefs, but it seems to center on yours. Ok, so be it. Continue living deluded and believing is psychics
@ebrobaru Again, where did I say she had a gift? your having to resort more and more to invention. Further more, who said I believe in psychic, what bit about suggest a convincing theory in this case and I'll happily accept are you struggling to comprehend? The ones you suggest DON'T. You really can't spit the dummy because someone will not do what you dictate. Moreover a supernatural explanation IS one possible explanation, it is clear that to you this is impossible ....
and so your mind is shut there. Which of course is totally unscientific. Lets be clear her, the information was obscure and only I and my mother knew about it. The informations pretty easy to remember even after all these years. Can't have been cold read, and there was no pre talk and it can't have been 'planted' by clever talk. Nobody can prove it was supernatural, but suggest another reason other than the ones you have trotted out here and I'll gladly think them over.
@zaftra Again that is what you claim, what you remember. we have given you enough arguments to see why this might be flawed, but since you live out of the normal parameters of any human being, I guess it`s a moot point.
So, you have ruled out every possibility, and yet you don´t think it was anything supernatural. So, since you said it was not a gift of hers, what do you think it was?
@ebrobaru where did it rule out it was supernatural? You continue to tell me what I haven't said. I can't be any more clear to you. You have given me several possible explanations all I have herd and thought about at length before, none quite frankly satisfy me. the supernatural, you can't prove that one way or the other (though it remains a valid possibility). SO yet again, if someone can suggest something to me that I could accept, I'd be glad to think about it.
@zaftra You seem to have missed my point here. I'm saying that since I wasn't there I'm willing to accept I could be wrong. As you have admitted you cant recall the conversation exactly word for word, I'm asking if in a similar vain are you willing to accept you could have been tricked?
@thenigotoffthebus now your starting to manipulate. Why have you move this from a single sentence (which I do remember) to an entire meeting and conversation. Tricked? no. You seemed to have missed a question, are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You canot remeebr ONE single sentence spoken to you?
@zaftra I havent moved anything. You are fixating on the single sentence, not me. What I'm saying is in a meeting such as this context is everything. Looking at one sentence in isolation can easily be misconstrued. Of course the other things said by all parties involved is important. If I give you this single sentence from a psychic:
"I have your brother Abel here" It becomes far less impressive when you find out the person being read first said "I want to contact my dead brother Abel"
@thenigotoffthebus The sentence I am 'fixated' on is the crux to it all. And like you say, you remember things your fixated on. I told you, there was no conversation beforehand. Again - are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You cannot remember ONE single sentence spoken to you?
@ebrobaru was you dropped on your head a birth? why are you having so much difficulty understanding what I write here? They may be sensible suggestions but it doesn't follow they are simple solutions. Let me try and show what a closed mind is. Again, I have read your suggestions, I have known about them for many years, I have thought long and hard about them and they don't really provide a satisfactory explanation. I have said the supernatural (though valid) cannot be proven one way or ....
I have clearly stated if somebody can come up with an explanation that is not on here and not supernatural, I will gladly think about it. That's an open mind. You have your few explanations, to you it is bound to be one of them, there cannot be any other and it's impossible to be supernatural. That is a closed mind. A closed mind is one where your opinion only is the correct one, no others will be considered.
@ebrobaru So now I'm insane? Why? because I've thought about the possible explanations for 20 years and found them wanting? how long has this irrational streak been in you? Did you have tantrums as a child when not getting your own way? Just curious.
@zaftra Yes I am no expert in psychology, so I really can`t comment much on that. However on "psychics" I am, therefore, I know what I am talking about
@zaftra I, along with others, have done so thoroughly already. That you can´t seem to grasp the concept, is out of our hands. An expert on psychics is one who knows all their tricks and how they work. Clear enough for you?
You told me all about the psychic I saw? my word you must be psychic yourself, I have never said what her name was. All I have seen you do here is parrot out the usual, none of which satisfies. By the way, I wouldn't describe an expert on psychics as 'one who knows all their tricks'. If that's your criterion your claim to be an expert must be a fraudulent one. Tell us, is it your job? Do you research them at some institution? Or is it just an amateur thing fuelled by your own prejudice?
@ebrobaru Also, I think I will bid you a fond fair well, I'll do this to prevent you from becoming even more angry and to stop you from looking even more foolish. Over to you son, have the last word, go on, you know you want to.
@zaftra Thank you. Farewell again? What´s that, like the third or fourth time? Anyway, no I am not angry at all. If anything, I am amused at how people like you, refuse to accept reality no matter what.
@ebrobaru You seem to be giving me plenty of suggestions. None of which I find really convincing, not least that herd them so many times before. And this is the crux of the problem. What you have come up with on this page I have been aware about for many years, nothing new here, they didn't then and still don't convince me as an explanation. It's not cold or hot reading, it's not my memory failing, it's not trick talk, mind implant etc and so on. This you ...
seem to have the problem with, however, you are fully still convinced it must be a fault of mine. You just don't seem to be able to except that C (ie she gave information she couldn't have know) is a valid explanation. To you this is just dismissed as an impossibility. Therein lies the fault, if anyone can provide other possible explanations fine.
Dude, it was said on these pages that someone doubted my scientifiv back ground, you your self have said, and I quote 'I can tell you that I have a pink dragon living in my basement. Would you believe me? Just on my word?' this was in a post responding to me when I related something I obsrved. Taken together, pretty much these two are, and again you seem to miss read me INSINUATION that is its a story ie inplain terms a lie. And now apparently, my memory is failing me, can you be any more....
desperate to find an explanation a doubt my word? Good grief. It's not something that's very difficult to remember is it? and it was one of those things that hit. You mention girlfriends, pretty much sure you remember where and when and who you first had your end away, some things, you just never forget.
@ebrobaru well, to have a degree you have to have some form of intelligence, that's what they are design to show. If you haven't you can have as much if not more, you just haven't got anything in writing to prove it, you must be mistaking that.
That said who are you or anyone on here to tell me I am being fooled and duped? You wasn't there, you don't know the information she gave. I was was and i know no amount of cold reading could have got it. How...
about that this medium DID give information she could not have know, and it WAS a foot print in the sand. But you find this so incredulous and against your own believes that the only recourse is to dismiss this has a lie or has my being fooled. As if not occurred to you that the fault just might lie with you. The only thing of course is I have no recorded evidence, so, ithough true and I was not duped and fooled, remains anecdotal.
@zaftra It is human nature to alter the events every time we tell an account. If you know the scientific method, that´s how it works. I can tell you that I have a pink dragon living in my basement. Would you believe me? Just on my word? You´d want proof. What these so called psychics do are very simple techniques that anyone can learn. They seem amazing but they are not. If you really have an aopen mind about it, you´d be willing to admit that you may have been taken for a ride.
@ebrobaru I am fully aware of the all what you say, after all people like you KEEP telling me ad nauseum. What I said earlier was ONE message that I observed and I know the information could not have been cold read or guest. I told you there was no communication of any form. You seem to be ignoring this because it does not fit your believes. I don't have the evidence so I cannot back this up. Goes to show went people do not believe, they will not believe there minds are totally closed.
So we can see that ALL anecdotal evidence will be totally dismissed, which is nicely convenient for you. I wonder then, that if you DID observe something yourself would you also dismissed that as the psychic duping you but you didn't know how? Which pretty much means that no amount of evidence will be acceptable to you. Unless of course your above being duped but every body else isn't. In all my life that is the only piece of evidence that I really cannot come up with an explanation for.
@zaftra Argument from incredulity: "I cant explain/understand observation X, therefore observation X must be magic" A logical fallacy.
When I watch a magician do a stage trick, I very often cant come up with any possible explanation for how it was done. Perhaps this is also true of you when watching a trick? This doesn't mean that real magic was performed. It means something was done that gave the impression of magic but was in fact a trick. Maybe, just maybe that's what happened with you?
@theni I'm normally reluctant to debate anything with people who insinuate I'm a lair, but I suppose it's par of the course with your type. Your fallacy cliché doesn't really fit here (your read more like a militant atheist every post). I never said the alternative was ,magic', try reading and understanding what I have wrote. I clearly stated I cannot come up with a logical, REASONABLE alternative. Firstly, the message wasn't for me, secondly there was no communication before .......
.. with either myself or my mother. Thirdly the psychic was a visiting one, this was the first time to the area. fourthly the incident she refereed to happened when my mother was 8 years old or so (she was 40 at the time) not even her then family knew the impact it had on my mother, and I was THE ONLY one she ever spoke to it about. Now I know full well there was no amount of cold or hot reading could ever have gotten that information. And you'd have to question someone for hours to trick it out
but of course the response to this from you people will be things like 'pick unicorns in living rooms' (you see now why I have always been spectacularly unimpressed by that course of argument) that's just resorting to calling people liars, that just leaves, oh you have been trick, cold reading, again that best fits your believe. I was there I saw it and certainly at the time did not believe in life after death at all, I struggle with concept now. but science is also one of not dismissing and ..
ignoring evidence either. Science is dynamic, a lot of you people think science is against these things, it's not, it just needs specific evidence, normally which can be tested under lab conditions and repeated in all labs.There's too many variables in testing psychics for this to be successful, ie, they can always have an excuse. It will always ultimately remain a personal thing. You haven't received that bit of information, but if you did, perhaps it would be dismissed also.
@zaftra I used magic as a loose catch-all term in the example. Replace that word with supernatural explanation, or psychic ability or whatever. The fallacy still stands. You are saying you cant think of any other way the person could have given this info so it must be genuine. You have been offered reasonable alternative explanations but you reject them. Apparently you're immune to the rules of logic & the psychological human traits the rest of us mere mortals have to suffer.
@thenigotoffthebus I reject them because they do not explain it. You two clearly think you are right on this and so no amount of reasoning with you will do. It's your way or no way. As said earlier, I have never once said it was supernatural (though as an explanation perfectly valid) You have failed to come up with a satisfactory alternative. For some reason you can't seem to handle it. This is not a matter of immunity, it is a matter of a sceptic witnessing it first hand.
@zaftra I would like to ask you how long this meeting took place for and if you would be willing to transcribe the entire meeting word for word? It will most likely be too long to post here so send me a private message if you like. Now I realise that for most people accurately transcribing an entire conversation that took place 20 years ago would be, well, impossible. But as we have already established you are not like the rest of us so I am sure you can do this with relative ease.
@thi think now your scepticism has taken desperate turn and I think we should draw a line under this. Has far as your concerned it's your way or no way and the fault MUST lie with me. The length of the meeting is irrelevant, so is being able to transcribe the meeting word for word, with all do respects that's a rather silly suggestion isn't it?
I just clicked your page to send you some detailed information and the message and what it related to, I see you have a friend FFREETHINKER, LOL I just KNEW you was talking like a militant atheist. I see they use a bastardised form of science to 'prove' their own beliefs. Has soon as I saw the the glorious mug of Mr Dawkins peeping I just knew your mind was closed period. So there's no point in sending any information.
You work on the assumption there is nothing but what you believe and if you and if you get a bit stump, Oh we can't answer it now or it doesn't mean there wont be an explanation in future. Basically you have developed a type of stalemate argument in which, whereas you don't convince or 'win' but you making that you can't 'lose' either. Sorta like a cop out.
@zaftra I subscribe to FFREETHINKER as he carries some vids I find interesting (not all of which I necessarily agree with). He sent me the friend request and being a friendly sort of guy I accepted. If you send me a friend request I'll accept you too. Maybe that will balance out the bad Karma on my page :)
I certainly wouldnt describe myself as a militant atheist or even an atheist but even if I did...so? If you are saying you are an atheist therefore you are wrong thats ad hominem ya know :)
@zaftra Not at all. If you cant transcribe it word for word then the possibility exists you were tricked and/or your memory of the event is fallible. If you can transcribe it then it can be analyzed to see if others can pick up on anything you may have overlooked or missed. Listen, I wasnt there, for all I know it was supernatural. While I dont really think that is the case I cant rule it out 100%. I wonder can you 100% rule out the possibility you were tricked?
sorry, but that is a cop out, if that were the case you couldn't accept a single piece of evidence in a court from witnesses. Your not thinking straight here. I'm not suddenly trying to remember a sentence from 20 years ago out of nothing and no where. I have thought about it on and off since. Put it another way, are seriously trying to tell me that you cannot possibly remember a piece of information given to you 20 years ago? Of course you will, some will be vague memories but others strong.
@zaftra Well the arena of law & the arena of science are 2 different things (science usually being a little more precise) but you bring up an interesting point. If a single witness had to give a detailed account of a conversation from 20 years ago that could send someone to jail for a long time & there was no other evidence available....I wonder if the court would take it at face value? If it was you potentially going to jail in that situation would you be happy with this level of evidence?
@the What the jury would want would be the general information, not a word for word transcript. Now, if parent was walking along a path 20 years ago and a car mounted the curb and kill there little girl in an hit and run, twenty years later ask to describe the day, they would remember. As regarding word for word transcript, you couldn,t do that from this morning, yesterday, but you'd remember the general bones of the conversation. Thats you just trying to set up an impossible block....
@zaftra That would depend entirely on the nature of the case. If i it was; I saw man A say to man B "I dont like your face" the man A hit man B.... then yep the detail of what was said not so important. If however we are talking about a complicated financial fraud trial and it hinges on a complex technical conversation that happened between 2 business men 20 years ago, then I doubt that one witnesses recollection of the conversation would be accepted as good quality evidence.
@thenigotoffthebus@thenigotoffthebus goodness me your powers on answering a direct question with a direct answer has disappears. Again - are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You cannot remember ONE single sentence spoken to you?
@zaftra Yes I can. But like I have already said, and perhaps you missed it (YT comments format worse than ever) context is everything. Everything said by all parties and in what order is very important when discussing an event such as you describe.
WILL WHOEVER KEEPS MARKING ZAFTRA'S COMMENTS AS SPAM PLEASE STOP AS THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT SPAM - THANK YOU.
@thenigotoffthebus no spam noticed here, perhaps it's auto for the amount of post. Right, so you will agree with me that you CAN remember clearly things said to you for all that time back. In this case, its not so much the context, it's the information received. She could have said I have a bill, bob, Obadiah here take it with you etc to the other people before an after, but in this case it was the very first thing she said. So in that respect there wasn't really a context for it.
@zaftra You can be an expert in engineering, but don´t know anything about psychology, which is where this falls into. It´s no shame on admitting that you have been duped. These cons are very good at what they do. You may think that she had information that was impossible. You may not be aware that it was you that passed this information, although without you knowing it. It´s very subtle. No anechdotical accounts cannot be taken as proof.
This reminds me of a well know sceptic commenting on the poltergeist of the girls in the 70's. Despite something like 15 people, police, journalist, investigators, neighbour, all could not explain or come up with an alternative, he had the arrogance 30 years on to say they where all wrong, he the one person was right, coming up with the explanations like you do and in his mind it was all mass hallucination. In the same way a grief stricken will grasp at straws so will the uber sceptic.
Also, what actual evidence (other than their own believes and therefore prejudice) do the people claiming cold reading, stooge etc actually have? If people can supply proper evidence in the same way the most haunted team exposed Dereck acora then I will happily accept she is and must be an astonishing cold reader. She'd be able to have a career like Darren Brown if she was that good.
@zaftra You say you are a science graduate and have a skeptical mind then you ask what evidence I have that psychics aren't real? So with your scientific background you've never came across the null hypothesis or burden of proof? Its logically impossible to prove a negative. If I say to you I can fly like superman is the burden on me to prove I can or you to prove I cant? Burden of proof lies with those making the extraordinary claim. As an erm...scientist you should know that.
She actually done a reading for Brian before this one, but she claimed the director told her to say she didn't know him, a little strange, but she does come across as a very good clairvoyant.
The difficulty with the non believers, they can only come up with cold reading. Doesn't matter how obscure the 'message' or information is, it will still be cold reading.
@zaftra Oh its more than just cold reading. Its hot reading, its TV editing but mostly its human psychology....traits like confirmation bias & retrospective falsification etc.
Bottom line is psychic claims made by the likes of Sally Morgan can be easily tested. All she/they have to do is the same they do every night on stage but with simple controls in place to prevent hot & cold reading. The minute you introduce such controls the "powers" mysteriously disappear.
@thenigo This is one of those things if you believe, you believe, equally, if you don't you don't. This hot/ cold reading is one of those cop out (though true sometimes for some) excuse for the none believer. In an auditorium of over a thousand people to hot/cold read anyone (at distance) in an instant must be pretty remarkable, so I'm unconvinced about that. That leaves either the medium having done some sort of research on her subjects before hand (unlikely ) or plants or genuine ability.
@zaftra Its not a cop out at all. Its an EXPLANATION. Look Derren Brown can do exactly the same as Sally Morgan in a big venue but he tells you upfront its a stage trick. So if he can do it then others can do it too. So how do we separate stage trick from genuine ability? Easy: controlled test. Neither Sally or any other claimed psychic has ever passed a proper controlled test. If they really had these abilities, passing such a test would be easy. Only frauds would fail.
@theni Your mind is obviously closed on the subject. I have seen examples of sceptics using cold reading and the information is so vague as to be laughable. I can't comment about Browns stage act never seen it, but in the interview with Dawkins (say no more) he clearly states it's the information GIVEN (ie planted) that the 'read' then interprets as a message..............
.... this is totally different to precise information that's impossible to cold read. I have seen this happen, that bit of information that you think hang on. I will preface that I am a science graduate in biology and chemistry and have a naturally sceptical mind. But I am also fair and objective, and not all can be passed of as cold/hot reading. And it only needs one bit of information. It only takes one fossil!
@zaftra Nope, my mind is wide open. Show me credible evidence & I'll believe. I suggest you actually watch some of Derren's stage shows then to see what his techniques look like when performed. Far more impressive AND specific than I've ever seen Sally perform. Evening of wonders (especially the oracle part) & his Messiah TV show would be a good start. In the mean time answer me this: why cant Sally (or any other psychic) pass a simple controlled test?
@thenig You certainly don't come across as open minded. You read like one of those people who does not believe and looks for every possible explanation not to. You seem to be making a lot of this Darren brown, his stage tricks are one thing, Sally another. Has Sally ever been investigate? What would the control be? You might as well ask if spirits where real why doesn't one just pop up and say hello to me......
What you need to bare in mind, it wouldn't be the psychic under investigation, it would be the 'spirits' talking through her. Even then, if the wanted to play, in the most controlled environments, if she did come up with some precise information, it could ALWAYS be dismissed has cold reading. What experiment would you suggest?
@zaftra It doesnt matter where the information comes from the results can be tested. Heres one test: 10 believers like yourself get read by Sally behind a screen. No talking from either of you. She writes down the readings or dictates them. The 10 believers then have to identify their own readings afterwards. 6 out of 10 is a pass. Do that twice and Im converted on the spot.
@the null hypothesis or burden of proof? dear, dear me. this little chestnut didn't take long. Basically you can go around saying things aren't true with nothing to back it up, but every body as to run around supplying you was evidence. she IS supplying the evidence - you just don't believe it. Your test, firstly, where did I write anywhere I believe? you seem to be telling me what I believe... Secondly, your test is somewhat flawed...
.. what if the 'spirits' don't want to communicate? secondly, what if there HAS to be some form of verbal comunication for the spirits to 'zone in' as it where. Not unlike a mother shouting for her child on a busy beach. If in a stony silent reading she could not 'perform' would you take that as concrete proof she is a fraud? there are many variables
@zaftra The spirits seem happy enough to come through night after night on stage and long days of TV shoots. She can have time for this test. OK let her yap away, but the subjects dont get to hear what shes saying. The verbal side doesnt seem to be a problem when she starts a show or writes in a mag/paper. You see all I'm asking her to do is what she normally does but with little controls that would stop cheats but would not stop one with true ability. Dont you think she could pass such a test?
@ yes, she communicating it. And this post clearly shows your scepticism, just the way it's worded with the sarcasm and using words like yap. It is not SHE who needs to talk, it might be they the subjects, thus you have your cold reading fuel. I have absolutely no idea if she could. But as asked, what if the spirits don't want to play that day, would that make her a fraud in your mind. The thing is, unless or until YOU receive something that personal, you will always remain sceptic.
@zaftra I don't deny I'm a skeptic, of course I am. This is not a bad thing. But show me credible evidence & I'll change my mind on this issue. All your issues with my test don't seem to be issues to Sally otherwise. So why the need to make all these excuses for her? Spirits do seem to come to her in abundance. Shes does write things in mags & papers without any feedback (verbal or otherwise) from the people that she is writing about. Why looking for outs? Whats the problem?
Again you are using loaded words. Will you please stop this manipulation. These are not excuses for her, but questioning YOUR or any experiment. I'm sorry if you don't like that idea but it is also part of science to do this. but what would I know, apparently lying about my scientific. This seems to be deteriorating it to an argument, which so often does with closed minded people of any belief.
You have shown yourself to be fully sceptical, mocking, sarcastic, and with the exception of the using usual 'if i see evidance etc' are quite willing to dismiss anecdotal spouting and insinuate lies when someone tells you something that does not fit YOUR belief.
@zaftra I dont think you are lying at all. I do think we can ALL be fooled and become victim to human weakness that lead us to false conclusions. When people thought the sun revolved around the earth they weren't being dishonest. They were fooled by their own instincts & pre-conceived beliefs. Their interpretation of the available data was flawed. This is what I am claiming of you. Not that you are lying.
You openly doubted my science background. I have no interest with debating anything with people who have to resort to calling people liars. your silly examples of the moon are no more convincing then when atheist use them. To me it comes across as if you have run out of any constructive argument. Nor is patronising me. Are you saying I and all the rest are so easily fool and you (because you are sceptic) are the only ones immune to being duped. Please don't be so arrogant.
"Brian, we have to talk about money... you gotta stop spending. Now, the serious business... go buy a dog, NOW!!"
calumacky 2 months ago
"You are spending too much money.. So buy a dog"
Genius.
kamoto45 3 months ago
Ooh, there's a presence - a man or a woman. Aged between 1 and 122. Their name begins with a...letter of the alphabet. Diana wouldn't have been impressed with your faking. Thank god she's not here to see this little hiccup in a..ahem..career. She'd have wanted her money back. And what makes Brian Dowling scream - being a total fucking untalented wanker.
anddyx 3 months ago
@CameronIsADickhead she is skinny now
AIIThingsGorgeous 3 months ago
The celebrities chosen for these psychic sally readings are just the kind of people I would have expected. I'm sure Jade would have been there too if she was still alive. Wheres Callum Best? And that dosile crap welsh Rugby player Gavin Henson?
Pentdad 4 months ago
Funny!
MegaJackass75 4 months ago
Internet ,newspapers (local),credit card when you buy your tickets,researchers,Births ,Deaths and Marriages.All very useful for getting information
bonesandanne 4 months ago
@UglyPratFace7 *everyone ... not everytime
UglyPratFace7 5 months ago
What a Con! .. The points made in this reading could appeal to anyone. She's using generalisations that everytime can relate to .. I don't know how anyone can believe this stuff.
UglyPratFace7 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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Sportinglodgeinns1 6 months ago
Just sounded like two friends having a natter... *sigh* why do people lap this crap?
wildchik101 6 months ago
Comment removed
tvlicensingfraud 6 months ago
Fucking fraud. I was having a debate with my aunt last night who believes this and she was asking questions like "How, when I go to psychics do they know my mothers name? It not cold reading, explain that"
To which I replied "Its a trick, if people knew how the trick was done, they wouldnt make the money that they do, so I cannot give you an answer to how cold reading works"
(Then another question...explain that)
(Same Answer)
(Ad Infinitum)
rainfordmetallica 6 months ago
I've even have readings at spiritualist churches which only ask for a donation of spare change who were so accurate.I felt sorry for the grieving people who got a message that was wrong and looked confused.
magpie7death 7 months ago
watched her on tv she looked brilliant, went to see her and it was very poor. waste of money. She was getting a lot of confused people in the audience, she was getting it wrong nearly all the time, like it was guess work. It really upset me, as I have seen quite a few mediums and they were spot on.
magpie7death 7 months ago
@magpie7death If you believe in mediums i suggest you research cold reading, Neuro-linguistic programming, SRT hypnosis. When you finally realise whats going on you will laugh that you ever believed this in the first place.
Derren Brown even demonstrates some of these in his show - Derren Brown - Messiah (2005)
ComputerHelpDude 7 months ago
@ComputerHelpDude I do believe in mediums, but a lot out there are frauds. I've had things happen to me that make me believe in an afterlife. There are some genuine mediums out there. I wouldn't be laughing finding out that someone has been lying to people. I have recently lost my fiancé at 28 years of age and I have to believe there is something after this or it wouldn't be worth me living. Grieving people need mediums for comfort, but only geniune ones.
magpie7death 7 months ago
@magpie7death - First off - I am sorry to hear your loss, but yes dont get me wrong, i believe there is an afterlife. But unfortunately there are people in this world that take thrive on this and take advantage of us human beings when we are at our weakest. In the end its up to you what you believe.
ComputerHelpDude 7 months ago 2
@ComputerHelpDude thank you, i agree with you there, i don't like seeing people who are grieving being conned. when i went to see Sally Morgan a guy who had lost his child looked confused when she was saying things to him and people say no if mediums are wrong. I felt so sorry for this guy as she brought no comfort to him. I don't know what i would have done if someone was giving me the wrong info when my partner just passed, as you feel so down anyway and have no hope
magpie7death 7 months ago
@magpie7death Maybe there´s an afterlife, who knows for sure? But from there, to say that they communicate with some mediums is just nonsense. It´s just con men taking advantage of the vulnerable. People need family and friends to be consoled, not scam artists.
ebrobaru 7 months ago
@ebrobaru i do believe there are some genuine mediums out there who helped me out of my grief. I went to a spiritualist church and they just ask for some small change at the beginning of the service, they aren't in it to con people, or to get famous. every week there is a different medium and they told me personal things that my partner would say to me that only i knew. It got me out of my grief, as i couldnt be consoled by my family, i needed him to tell me he was ok.
magpie7death 7 months ago
@magpie7death also i told him to prove to me he existed by saying a certain thing and he came through saying it, when i next went to church. They mentioned things i had said to certain people, that no one would have known about. He did this to prove he is with me and still exhists. When he passed my senses got hightened and i feel them draw close to me from time to time, i know it sounds crazy, but i do. But as i said there are plenty of frauds out there as well
magpie7death 7 months ago
@magpie7death What they do is no different than "commercial psychics" do. Maybe they aren´t for the big money, because they work in volume. But the fact is that they do use the exact techniques that psychics use. If you needed a stranger to tell you fabricated leis to make you feel better, that´s your choice. But being lied to I guess it´s hardly what anybody would need to get consoled
ebrobaru 6 months ago
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theMerrillWally 7 months ago
"psychics" are full of it.
2010Barbon 10 months ago
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MichelleRundell 11 months ago
fraudulent slag
davidhealey1 11 months ago
big it up maidstone home town and big i up sally morgan
TheEastendgirl 1 year ago
She knows Brian Dowling personally from at least 2005, despite saying she didn't know him. When she was confronted her answer was "The director told me to." So, a paid liar then. Do the believers get it? If you don't be aware others do, so watch you personal psychosis, it will be embarrassing.
jarneyfs1 1 year ago 9
'Blow my socks off', literally, I presume?
Hollieiscool22 1 year ago
Went to see Sally Morgan on Thursday 28th October 2010. Her accuracy was about 10-15%. I think on her show they show the best bits. She was giving reading to people and was not spot on all the time. A very poor show. Save your money and spend it on a good film and a meal. A big build up at the start for a very poor, poor show. A con artist. People after the show looked disjointed. Charlatan. Drop the act Sally, You're a bad ac trees as well as a bad psychic.
pw7780759 1 year ago 2
@pw7780759 I've seen this exact comment a few times now...
LiamDaLemon 7 months ago
this is hilarious if you have studied cold reading before. its so generic and fake to the point its funny, i cant believe people lap this up. "i need to talk to you about money" "yeah im spending too much" " you are spending too much" FREAKY. then saying you need a puppy? if you know somebody who has said on national tv they like dogs, its hardly being psychic to say you need a puppy.
Arcadiah 1 year ago 16
No problem, in fact, to your credit you've provided a perfect illustration of how a sceptic is not afraid to revise their position when presented with the evidence.
Sorry if my attempt a humour caused confusion.
MrAudity 1 year ago
Dry reader.
IanEColeman 1 year ago
I find it interesting that even in the 2st century many otherwise intelligent people would rather reject reason in preference to accepting the comforting delusions peddled by the likes of Mrs Morgan.
The burden of proof is with those that believe this hokum not the sceptics.
As yet there is no scientific evidence for the existence of the paranormal and in all probability there never will be.
There is a difference between closed mindedness and simply lacking gullibility.
MrAudity 1 year ago
@MrAudity I always laugh when skeptics get accused of having closed minds (happens to me all the time). The irony being most skeptics will change their mind and accept psychic ability as real if credible evidence is ever produced. A simple blinded controlled test would do it. Yet you ask the believers what it would take to convince them that people like Sally are NOT genuine and the typical response is along the lines of "nothing will ever make me change my mind". Closed minds eh :-)
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus
indeed, sceptics are closed minded haters with negative attitudes...they scare off the spirits, which is why no scientific study has ever been able to show evidence in favour of the paranormal.
In fact the very lack of any evidence actually proves the existence of the paranormal oblivious really ;)
MrAudity 1 year ago
@MrAudity The believers, such as you, are the ones with the closed minds. You wont change your minds even when presented with the evidence. Youa re the oens that are afraid to accept reality as it is
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru
Was my irony too subtle?
MrAudity 1 year ago
@MrAudity I guess so. If you could clarify it, then there would be no misunderstandings
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru
I think the clue was in my earlier post
"otherwise intelligent people would rather reject reason in preference to accepting the comforting delusions peddled by the likes of Mrs Morgan"
And
"As yet there is no scientific evidence for the existence of the paranormal and in all probability there never will be."
MrAudity 1 year ago
@MrAudity I stand corrected. Thanks
ebrobaru 1 year ago
go to my channel for a video about psychics
aarondary 1 year ago
video about psychics
go to uk sceptics
psychics forum
click on , charlie brooker on colin fry
aarondary 1 year ago
Can't stand this woman, like all psychics using 'Cold Reading' techniques she's an arrogant tosser, besides Sally had met and given Brian a reading previous to this but only said she 'Knew of him'... repulsive lying woman!
Elibobbob 1 year ago
Notice the particularly inane cliente. I'd love to see her do Derren Brown or Richard Dawkins.
boredvesuvian 1 year ago
@boredvesuvian inane? You mean the celebrities with the lowest IQ available.
Pentdad 1 year ago
do not phone sally morgans phychic lines they are a rip off
bootlehistory 1 year ago
lol they are a bit naughty!
QueerSwede1 1 year ago
I've watched several videos of Psychics on YouTube, and I've noticed that the people with the most venom and anger in their comments are those who strive to debunk. Anger comes from fear. So 'he who shouts loudest' is clearly quite afraid. Also, asking someone to prove something largely unprovable is just the same as asking someone to disprove something not easily disproved. Or in other words, a total waste of time. If you believe you do, and if you don't you don't. It's that simple! :O)
coldstoragevideo 1 year ago
@coldstoragevideo I think that you are mistaken. Anger doesn´t come from fear, but from seeing how gullible and naive people are taken by these frauds. Being psychic is easy an easy thing to prove. Of course, no psychic would care to do it because their little business would come to a stop
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@coldstoragevideo There's PLENTY of anger & venom from the believers too. I think perhaps you are a victim of confirmation bias, only taking notice of the comments that confirm your preconceived view.
Also saying "anger comes from fear" is a bit of a blanket statement. Anger comes from many causes. Injustice, frustration, empathy to name but a few. Have you ever became angry when hearing of an elderly person losing their life savings to a conman? Was this anger born from fear? I think not.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus There are heated responses from both sides, but I just noticed that, on balance, the most vitriolic was coming from one side.
I have no pre-conceived view. Even though I've practiced mediumship myself, I still question every event with an open and scientific mind.
Freud said that all anger manifests in fear - a well debated viewpoint. In your example, you'd fear that this could happen again to her or someone else. You can't stop it happening so you'd get angry.
coldstoragevideo 1 year ago
@coldstoragevideo No I think my anger would arise from my sense of injustice. In your example fear is being used in a linguistic sense, not an emotional sense. e.g "I fear I'm not going to make that meeting after all".
Fear is a very personal emotion and it generally only affects you if the threat relates directly to oneself or someone close. When I hear of random strangers being conned I'm not angry because I'm afraid.
Have you ever tested your claimed ability with a proper controlled test?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
Has a side interest, do either of you two think what I say is pink unicorn made up or honest to gods truth? If you genuinely think it is true (which it is) what are your theories and explanations. Leave the cold reading and tricking the information out of my mother aside, they cannot possibly have happened.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Why are you getting so defensive? You are being provided with simple rational explanations, yet you keep attacking the people who give them to you. It´s not "our" beliefs. The only one believing here is you. Believing without any proof. That is faith, not science. You said yourself that science needs evidence. Because of your beliefs, it is easy to get sucked into this. That is why, to be reliable, some impartial third party must review what you claim. And since you have no evidence...
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru Then it´s a moot point. The fact that you cannot come up with an explanation yourself, doesn´t mean that there is not one out there. Everyone claims that psychics are frauds, except their own psychic. Come on, think about it.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
Of course it is not a moot point. That is the whole point about what I have been saying. I have thought about cold reading and psychology and all the rest none of them can provide me with a satisfactory explanation. If some one can come up with other than what you have here I would gladly like to know. that argument you use there is one of those cop out ones a lot of atheist use. We can't explain it now, but we will. You have to bare in mind for every action there's and equal and opposite one
zaftra 1 year ago
@ebrobaru I'm not attacking, but consistently your failing to read what I say, you yet again have said 'your beliefs' Read every single post I have made VERY carefully, you will see I have not made any mention about any belief one way or the other until recently and then it was one of scepticism. Your mind is so closed on the subject that you think I am saying one thing but I'm not. I also have clearly said I do not have the evidence to prove it so it remains anecdotal, ...
zaftra 1 year ago
so where you are getting this anecdotal as proof I have no idea. You also brought in the pink unicorn in your living room, or words to that effect. You will claim this is making some valid point, but what in fact it is doing is calling someone a liar (again, why I have no respect for that type of analogy). And this leads me on to what you two are doing yet seem unable to see it... You either are trying to claim that what I observed is somehow a lie and despite what I say to the contrary....
zaftra 1 year ago
IF the story is true then clearly you have been dupe because you don't have the intelligence to see when you are. Both of these tend to be somewhat offensive, but the latter is staggeringly ignorant, condescending, close minded and arrogant. Because of YOUR believes (which naturally are correct) you are either assuming a, I am lying, b, if true then clearly you have been duped, what you will not accept is C, that in fact the story I relate is in fact true, that I'm not as gullible as you ...
zaftra 1 year ago
you seem to think I am and that indeed the psychic DID relate something that is very very difficult to come up with an explanation. This annoys me on a few levels, one it's personally insulting to me, two your minds refuse to accept anything but your own beliefs and most annoying, it is totally unscientific. You can't make suggestions about something that happened to me over 20 years ago.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Nobody is calling you a liar or that you made your story. You just said that his happened 20 years ago. How can you be sure that things happened exactly that way? It´s human nature to distort ever so slightly the accounts when telling them over and over, especially when they are very old. It is also human nature to tend to exaggerate the highlights of those accounts, more and more every time. I am not calling you a liar again, it´s just how the human brain works.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru For example, take your high school sweetheart. I am sure that now you remember her very fondly. You remember the great things about her and not so much the bad ones. You tend to idealize her. And that´s the image you keep of her. But if look at it closely, say if you meet her again, you´ll find out that she was not as perfect as you recall. See? It´s the same thing. That is why personal anecdotes cannot be taken as proof of anything.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru I am not doubting that you are telling the story exactly as it happened. You are relating it as you remember it. Those are two different things. And no, we a re not trying to impose our beliefs on you. We are just stating the facts. That you refuse to accept even the possibility of an alternative explanation to what happened to you, that is having a closed mind.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru And what is this atheist argument about? It has nothing to with this. The fact that you or I are or are not atheists is irrelevant. I hope you are not insulted by these comments.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru the atheist thing is neither here nor there. That just comes from when atheist use a bastardized form of scenic as if it's proof beyond belief. The things they end up say are very nearly identical here. It just reminded me of it. nothing more than that
zaftra 1 year ago
@ebrobaru You say I refuse to believe any alternative, yet I said on here today, if someone gives me a GOOD reasonable logical alternative I will gladly accept it. i assume your selective reading missed that. No I have read everything you have said, it is nothing I have not herd and read many times before, it's nothing new. In this case they are not satisfactory for the reason given.
zaftra 1 year ago
@ebrobaru incidentally your girlfriend example is totally in appropriate, that is remembering personality, not an event. You should be able to remember when and where you first had a date, met, had sex etc, which is more akin to remembering what some one said in a 'message' that was just a sentence.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra How can anyone give you an alternative when no one was there to witness what happened? So that example, just doesn´t work. Do you remember exactly what did you say on your first date? What was said to you? You remember maybe the restaurant you went to. Maybe the movie you watched. But not the exact dialogues. Same with your message.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru I am not saying that your memory is failing you. If you are a normal person, then it´s normal for memories to happen that way. So don´t take it personally. It just happens this way to everyone. Unless of course, if you are some sort of super human out of the norm.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru No, it's nothing to do with being super human, it is just something I remember very well, it is not very difficult to remember, not least because it was somehting I thought about a lot at the time and have done ever since. It is not very difficult to remember, it doesn't involve complex personality traits nor halcyon days, put it this way, I once remember getting locked out of my car and someone from art collage having to give me a lift home to get the spare. If I told you this..
zaftra 1 year ago
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zaftra 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ebrobaru No, it's nothing to do with being super human, it is just something I remember very well, it is not very difficult to remember, not least because it was somehting I thought about a lot at the time and have done ever since. It is not very difficult to remember, it doesn't involve complex personality traits nor halcyon days, put it this way, I once remember getting locked out of my car and someone from art collage having to give me a lift home to get the spare. If I told you this..
zaftra 1 year ago
in general chit chat, would you be putting it to me that my mind was playing tricks or memory failing? No you'd just accept it has told.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra So you are saying to me that you are different than every other person around. Because what I described is a very common thing that happens to everyone. So you haven´t heard any reasonable explanation yet? We have told you several ones, and yet you decided not to believe any. That´s your choice of course, but talk about a closed mind. So, since you don´t have any other explanation then you immediately think that this lady had supernatural powers. How is that more believable than others?
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru your grasping at straws now. Quote me and show me one post here where I have claimed she has super natural powers! I'm afraid you just can't put words in peoples mouth because it suites your argument.You told me several explanations, all I have herd before, in this case, I have to reject them because they do they do not explain what I witnessed. What exactly do you want me to do here? Just except what you say? oh silly me, you have completely convinced me, and I must be wrong, ...
zaftra 1 year ago
I must have been duped, my memory after all this time must be playing tricks one me. You seem to be talking as if you was there and witness this yourself. Cold/ hot reading, memory tricks and all the rest do not explain it. Why don't you just try and realise that sometimes something may not fit your beliefs and an alternative must be sort. That's science my friend. Here's an axiom of science - If what you observe does not fit the questions you ask - ask different questions.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra So, what is then the explanation of what happened to you? Huh? That this lady had a "gift"? Isn´t that supernatural? You have no idea of how science works, and you are the one with a closed mind. Obviously you are so arrogant that you cannot admit that they might be another explanation no matter the evidence shown to you. This has nothing to do with my beliefs, but it seems to center on yours. Ok, so be it. Continue living deluded and believing is psychics
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru Again, where did I say she had a gift? your having to resort more and more to invention. Further more, who said I believe in psychic, what bit about suggest a convincing theory in this case and I'll happily accept are you struggling to comprehend? The ones you suggest DON'T. You really can't spit the dummy because someone will not do what you dictate. Moreover a supernatural explanation IS one possible explanation, it is clear that to you this is impossible ....
zaftra 1 year ago
and so your mind is shut there. Which of course is totally unscientific. Lets be clear her, the information was obscure and only I and my mother knew about it. The informations pretty easy to remember even after all these years. Can't have been cold read, and there was no pre talk and it can't have been 'planted' by clever talk. Nobody can prove it was supernatural, but suggest another reason other than the ones you have trotted out here and I'll gladly think them over.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Again that is what you claim, what you remember. we have given you enough arguments to see why this might be flawed, but since you live out of the normal parameters of any human being, I guess it`s a moot point.
So, you have ruled out every possibility, and yet you don´t think it was anything supernatural. So, since you said it was not a gift of hers, what do you think it was?
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru where did it rule out it was supernatural? You continue to tell me what I haven't said. I can't be any more clear to you. You have given me several possible explanations all I have herd and thought about at length before, none quite frankly satisfy me. the supernatural, you can't prove that one way or the other (though it remains a valid possibility). SO yet again, if someone can suggest something to me that I could accept, I'd be glad to think about it.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra You seem to have missed my point here. I'm saying that since I wasn't there I'm willing to accept I could be wrong. As you have admitted you cant recall the conversation exactly word for word, I'm asking if in a similar vain are you willing to accept you could have been tricked?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus now your starting to manipulate. Why have you move this from a single sentence (which I do remember) to an entire meeting and conversation. Tricked? no. You seemed to have missed a question, are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You canot remeebr ONE single sentence spoken to you?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I havent moved anything. You are fixating on the single sentence, not me. What I'm saying is in a meeting such as this context is everything. Looking at one sentence in isolation can easily be misconstrued. Of course the other things said by all parties involved is important. If I give you this single sentence from a psychic:
"I have your brother Abel here" It becomes far less impressive when you find out the person being read first said "I want to contact my dead brother Abel"
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus The sentence I am 'fixated' on is the crux to it all. And like you say, you remember things your fixated on. I told you, there was no conversation beforehand. Again - are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You cannot remember ONE single sentence spoken to you?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra We have provided enough sensible suggestions and simple solutions. yet, you wont accept any. You are the one with the closed mind.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru was you dropped on your head a birth? why are you having so much difficulty understanding what I write here? They may be sensible suggestions but it doesn't follow they are simple solutions. Let me try and show what a closed mind is. Again, I have read your suggestions, I have known about them for many years, I have thought long and hard about them and they don't really provide a satisfactory explanation. I have said the supernatural (though valid) cannot be proven one way or ....
zaftra 1 year ago
I have clearly stated if somebody can come up with an explanation that is not on here and not supernatural, I will gladly think about it. That's an open mind. You have your few explanations, to you it is bound to be one of them, there cannot be any other and it's impossible to be supernatural. That is a closed mind. A closed mind is one where your opinion only is the correct one, no others will be considered.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra No I wasn´t, but I bet you were. That is the only possible explanation as why you are so stubborn.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru Left me get this straight then, because someone doesn't accept the explanations you supply they're being stubborn are they?
OK if you say so.
I think we've come to an end of our discussion. You will only be ok if people see things your way.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra it´s not my way, it`s the way of sane people. It´s called reality. But if you want to live in your fantasy world, suit yourself.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru So now I'm insane? Why? because I've thought about the possible explanations for 20 years and found them wanting? how long has this irrational streak been in you? Did you have tantrums as a child when not getting your own way? Just curious.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Since I am not a psychologist I don´t know the exact term. But is is pretty close
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru Well I'm glad you admit you make comments about something you don't fully understand nor comprehend.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Yes I am no expert in psychology, so I really can`t comment much on that. However on "psychics" I am, therefore, I know what I am talking about
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru are you now, then do please tell me about the one I saw. What exactly is an expert on psychics?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I, along with others, have done so thoroughly already. That you can´t seem to grasp the concept, is out of our hands. An expert on psychics is one who knows all their tricks and how they work. Clear enough for you?
ebrobaru 1 year ago
You told me all about the psychic I saw? my word you must be psychic yourself, I have never said what her name was. All I have seen you do here is parrot out the usual, none of which satisfies. By the way, I wouldn't describe an expert on psychics as 'one who knows all their tricks'. If that's your criterion your claim to be an expert must be a fraudulent one. Tell us, is it your job? Do you research them at some institution? Or is it just an amateur thing fuelled by your own prejudice?
zaftra 1 year ago
@ebrobaru Also, I think I will bid you a fond fair well, I'll do this to prevent you from becoming even more angry and to stop you from looking even more foolish. Over to you son, have the last word, go on, you know you want to.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Thank you. Farewell again? What´s that, like the third or fourth time? Anyway, no I am not angry at all. If anything, I am amused at how people like you, refuse to accept reality no matter what.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
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zaftra 1 year ago
@ebrobaru You seem to be giving me plenty of suggestions. None of which I find really convincing, not least that herd them so many times before. And this is the crux of the problem. What you have come up with on this page I have been aware about for many years, nothing new here, they didn't then and still don't convince me as an explanation. It's not cold or hot reading, it's not my memory failing, it's not trick talk, mind implant etc and so on. This you ...
zaftra 1 year ago
seem to have the problem with, however, you are fully still convinced it must be a fault of mine. You just don't seem to be able to except that C (ie she gave information she couldn't have know) is a valid explanation. To you this is just dismissed as an impossibility. Therein lies the fault, if anyone can provide other possible explanations fine.
zaftra 1 year ago
Dude, it was said on these pages that someone doubted my scientifiv back ground, you your self have said, and I quote 'I can tell you that I have a pink dragon living in my basement. Would you believe me? Just on my word?' this was in a post responding to me when I related something I obsrved. Taken together, pretty much these two are, and again you seem to miss read me INSINUATION that is its a story ie inplain terms a lie. And now apparently, my memory is failing me, can you be any more....
zaftra 1 year ago
desperate to find an explanation a doubt my word? Good grief. It's not something that's very difficult to remember is it? and it was one of those things that hit. You mention girlfriends, pretty much sure you remember where and when and who you first had your end away, some things, you just never forget.
zaftra 1 year ago
cold reading bitch, i hope she gets really outed as the latest of many fake psychics
TheOnetrueself 1 year ago
having a degree on anything doesn´t mean that you are intelligent, only that you have an education
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru do you have a degree ebrobaru?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra yes I do. And I have been fooled many times. I don´t have a problem admitting that. But I am very familiar with the scientific method.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru well, to have a degree you have to have some form of intelligence, that's what they are design to show. If you haven't you can have as much if not more, you just haven't got anything in writing to prove it, you must be mistaking that.
That said who are you or anyone on here to tell me I am being fooled and duped? You wasn't there, you don't know the information she gave. I was was and i know no amount of cold reading could have got it. How...
zaftra 1 year ago
about that this medium DID give information she could not have know, and it WAS a foot print in the sand. But you find this so incredulous and against your own believes that the only recourse is to dismiss this has a lie or has my being fooled. As if not occurred to you that the fault just might lie with you. The only thing of course is I have no recorded evidence, so, ithough true and I was not duped and fooled, remains anecdotal.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra It is human nature to alter the events every time we tell an account. If you know the scientific method, that´s how it works. I can tell you that I have a pink dragon living in my basement. Would you believe me? Just on my word? You´d want proof. What these so called psychics do are very simple techniques that anyone can learn. They seem amazing but they are not. If you really have an aopen mind about it, you´d be willing to admit that you may have been taken for a ride.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
@ebrobaru I am fully aware of the all what you say, after all people like you KEEP telling me ad nauseum. What I said earlier was ONE message that I observed and I know the information could not have been cold read or guest. I told you there was no communication of any form. You seem to be ignoring this because it does not fit your believes. I don't have the evidence so I cannot back this up. Goes to show went people do not believe, they will not believe there minds are totally closed.
zaftra 1 year ago
So we can see that ALL anecdotal evidence will be totally dismissed, which is nicely convenient for you. I wonder then, that if you DID observe something yourself would you also dismissed that as the psychic duping you but you didn't know how? Which pretty much means that no amount of evidence will be acceptable to you. Unless of course your above being duped but every body else isn't. In all my life that is the only piece of evidence that I really cannot come up with an explanation for.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Argument from incredulity: "I cant explain/understand observation X, therefore observation X must be magic" A logical fallacy.
When I watch a magician do a stage trick, I very often cant come up with any possible explanation for how it was done. Perhaps this is also true of you when watching a trick? This doesn't mean that real magic was performed. It means something was done that gave the impression of magic but was in fact a trick. Maybe, just maybe that's what happened with you?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@theni I'm normally reluctant to debate anything with people who insinuate I'm a lair, but I suppose it's par of the course with your type. Your fallacy cliché doesn't really fit here (your read more like a militant atheist every post). I never said the alternative was ,magic', try reading and understanding what I have wrote. I clearly stated I cannot come up with a logical, REASONABLE alternative. Firstly, the message wasn't for me, secondly there was no communication before .......
zaftra 1 year ago
.. with either myself or my mother. Thirdly the psychic was a visiting one, this was the first time to the area. fourthly the incident she refereed to happened when my mother was 8 years old or so (she was 40 at the time) not even her then family knew the impact it had on my mother, and I was THE ONLY one she ever spoke to it about. Now I know full well there was no amount of cold or hot reading could ever have gotten that information. And you'd have to question someone for hours to trick it out
zaftra 1 year ago
but of course the response to this from you people will be things like 'pick unicorns in living rooms' (you see now why I have always been spectacularly unimpressed by that course of argument) that's just resorting to calling people liars, that just leaves, oh you have been trick, cold reading, again that best fits your believe. I was there I saw it and certainly at the time did not believe in life after death at all, I struggle with concept now. but science is also one of not dismissing and ..
zaftra 1 year ago
ignoring evidence either. Science is dynamic, a lot of you people think science is against these things, it's not, it just needs specific evidence, normally which can be tested under lab conditions and repeated in all labs.There's too many variables in testing psychics for this to be successful, ie, they can always have an excuse. It will always ultimately remain a personal thing. You haven't received that bit of information, but if you did, perhaps it would be dismissed also.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I used magic as a loose catch-all term in the example. Replace that word with supernatural explanation, or psychic ability or whatever. The fallacy still stands. You are saying you cant think of any other way the person could have given this info so it must be genuine. You have been offered reasonable alternative explanations but you reject them. Apparently you're immune to the rules of logic & the psychological human traits the rest of us mere mortals have to suffer.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus I reject them because they do not explain it. You two clearly think you are right on this and so no amount of reasoning with you will do. It's your way or no way. As said earlier, I have never once said it was supernatural (though as an explanation perfectly valid) You have failed to come up with a satisfactory alternative. For some reason you can't seem to handle it. This is not a matter of immunity, it is a matter of a sceptic witnessing it first hand.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I would like to ask you how long this meeting took place for and if you would be willing to transcribe the entire meeting word for word? It will most likely be too long to post here so send me a private message if you like. Now I realise that for most people accurately transcribing an entire conversation that took place 20 years ago would be, well, impossible. But as we have already established you are not like the rest of us so I am sure you can do this with relative ease.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thi think now your scepticism has taken desperate turn and I think we should draw a line under this. Has far as your concerned it's your way or no way and the fault MUST lie with me. The length of the meeting is irrelevant, so is being able to transcribe the meeting word for word, with all do respects that's a rather silly suggestion isn't it?
zaftra 1 year ago
I just clicked your page to send you some detailed information and the message and what it related to, I see you have a friend FFREETHINKER, LOL I just KNEW you was talking like a militant atheist. I see they use a bastardised form of science to 'prove' their own beliefs. Has soon as I saw the the glorious mug of Mr Dawkins peeping I just knew your mind was closed period. So there's no point in sending any information.
zaftra 1 year ago
You work on the assumption there is nothing but what you believe and if you and if you get a bit stump, Oh we can't answer it now or it doesn't mean there wont be an explanation in future. Basically you have developed a type of stalemate argument in which, whereas you don't convince or 'win' but you making that you can't 'lose' either. Sorta like a cop out.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I subscribe to FFREETHINKER as he carries some vids I find interesting (not all of which I necessarily agree with). He sent me the friend request and being a friendly sort of guy I accepted. If you send me a friend request I'll accept you too. Maybe that will balance out the bad Karma on my page :)
I certainly wouldnt describe myself as a militant atheist or even an atheist but even if I did...so? If you are saying you are an atheist therefore you are wrong thats ad hominem ya know :)
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@zaftra Not at all. If you cant transcribe it word for word then the possibility exists you were tricked and/or your memory of the event is fallible. If you can transcribe it then it can be analyzed to see if others can pick up on anything you may have overlooked or missed. Listen, I wasnt there, for all I know it was supernatural. While I dont really think that is the case I cant rule it out 100%. I wonder can you 100% rule out the possibility you were tricked?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
sorry, but that is a cop out, if that were the case you couldn't accept a single piece of evidence in a court from witnesses. Your not thinking straight here. I'm not suddenly trying to remember a sentence from 20 years ago out of nothing and no where. I have thought about it on and off since. Put it another way, are seriously trying to tell me that you cannot possibly remember a piece of information given to you 20 years ago? Of course you will, some will be vague memories but others strong.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Well the arena of law & the arena of science are 2 different things (science usually being a little more precise) but you bring up an interesting point. If a single witness had to give a detailed account of a conversation from 20 years ago that could send someone to jail for a long time & there was no other evidence available....I wonder if the court would take it at face value? If it was you potentially going to jail in that situation would you be happy with this level of evidence?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@the What the jury would want would be the general information, not a word for word transcript. Now, if parent was walking along a path 20 years ago and a car mounted the curb and kill there little girl in an hit and run, twenty years later ask to describe the day, they would remember. As regarding word for word transcript, you couldn,t do that from this morning, yesterday, but you'd remember the general bones of the conversation. Thats you just trying to set up an impossible block....
zaftra 1 year ago
you mean you can't remember word for word, then your mind must be at fault.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra That would depend entirely on the nature of the case. If i it was; I saw man A say to man B "I dont like your face" the man A hit man B.... then yep the detail of what was said not so important. If however we are talking about a complicated financial fraud trial and it hinges on a complex technical conversation that happened between 2 business men 20 years ago, then I doubt that one witnesses recollection of the conversation would be accepted as good quality evidence.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
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@thenigotoffthebus @thenigotoffthebus goodness me your powers on answering a direct question with a direct answer has disappears. Again - are you telling me you cannot possibly remember a single thing said to you from 20 years ago. Not one single thing, from your teachers at school, what your parents said to you, any advice from someone?. And remember it clearly? You cannot remember ONE single sentence spoken to you?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Yes I can. But like I have already said, and perhaps you missed it (YT comments format worse than ever) context is everything. Everything said by all parties and in what order is very important when discussing an event such as you describe.
WILL WHOEVER KEEPS MARKING ZAFTRA'S COMMENTS AS SPAM PLEASE STOP AS THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT SPAM - THANK YOU.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus no spam noticed here, perhaps it's auto for the amount of post. Right, so you will agree with me that you CAN remember clearly things said to you for all that time back. In this case, its not so much the context, it's the information received. She could have said I have a bill, bob, Obadiah here take it with you etc to the other people before an after, but in this case it was the very first thing she said. So in that respect there wasn't really a context for it.
zaftra 1 year ago
@thenigotoffthebus ps, we are hardly talking about complicated finatial frued are we?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra You can be an expert in engineering, but don´t know anything about psychology, which is where this falls into. It´s no shame on admitting that you have been duped. These cons are very good at what they do. You may think that she had information that was impossible. You may not be aware that it was you that passed this information, although without you knowing it. It´s very subtle. No anechdotical accounts cannot be taken as proof.
ebrobaru 1 year ago
This reminds me of a well know sceptic commenting on the poltergeist of the girls in the 70's. Despite something like 15 people, police, journalist, investigators, neighbour, all could not explain or come up with an alternative, he had the arrogance 30 years on to say they where all wrong, he the one person was right, coming up with the explanations like you do and in his mind it was all mass hallucination. In the same way a grief stricken will grasp at straws so will the uber sceptic.
zaftra 1 year ago
Also, what actual evidence (other than their own believes and therefore prejudice) do the people claiming cold reading, stooge etc actually have? If people can supply proper evidence in the same way the most haunted team exposed Dereck acora then I will happily accept she is and must be an astonishing cold reader. She'd be able to have a career like Darren Brown if she was that good.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra You say you are a science graduate and have a skeptical mind then you ask what evidence I have that psychics aren't real? So with your scientific background you've never came across the null hypothesis or burden of proof? Its logically impossible to prove a negative. If I say to you I can fly like superman is the burden on me to prove I can or you to prove I cant? Burden of proof lies with those making the extraordinary claim. As an erm...scientist you should know that.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
cold reading is bull shit. But Brian is soooooo cute
Triad3Force 1 year ago
She actually done a reading for Brian before this one, but she claimed the director told her to say she didn't know him, a little strange, but she does come across as a very good clairvoyant.
windchimex 1 year ago
Yeah sure. Tell us about ONE case
ebrobaru 1 year ago
that is truly real sally has solved murder crimes and the police has actually captured murderes i know that she is phychic because i am.
TheMax2cool 1 year ago
@TheMax2cool Which murder cases has Sally Morgan solved? Please name one.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
IITS FUCKING REAL WDF?
magicmaker11101113 1 year ago
The difficulty with the non believers, they can only come up with cold reading. Doesn't matter how obscure the 'message' or information is, it will still be cold reading.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Oh its more than just cold reading. Its hot reading, its TV editing but mostly its human psychology....traits like confirmation bias & retrospective falsification etc.
Bottom line is psychic claims made by the likes of Sally Morgan can be easily tested. All she/they have to do is the same they do every night on stage but with simple controls in place to prevent hot & cold reading. The minute you introduce such controls the "powers" mysteriously disappear.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenigo This is one of those things if you believe, you believe, equally, if you don't you don't. This hot/ cold reading is one of those cop out (though true sometimes for some) excuse for the none believer. In an auditorium of over a thousand people to hot/cold read anyone (at distance) in an instant must be pretty remarkable, so I'm unconvinced about that. That leaves either the medium having done some sort of research on her subjects before hand (unlikely ) or plants or genuine ability.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Its not a cop out at all. Its an EXPLANATION. Look Derren Brown can do exactly the same as Sally Morgan in a big venue but he tells you upfront its a stage trick. So if he can do it then others can do it too. So how do we separate stage trick from genuine ability? Easy: controlled test. Neither Sally or any other claimed psychic has ever passed a proper controlled test. If they really had these abilities, passing such a test would be easy. Only frauds would fail.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@theni Your mind is obviously closed on the subject. I have seen examples of sceptics using cold reading and the information is so vague as to be laughable. I can't comment about Browns stage act never seen it, but in the interview with Dawkins (say no more) he clearly states it's the information GIVEN (ie planted) that the 'read' then interprets as a message..............
zaftra 1 year ago
.... this is totally different to precise information that's impossible to cold read. I have seen this happen, that bit of information that you think hang on. I will preface that I am a science graduate in biology and chemistry and have a naturally sceptical mind. But I am also fair and objective, and not all can be passed of as cold/hot reading. And it only needs one bit of information. It only takes one fossil!
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra Nope, my mind is wide open. Show me credible evidence & I'll believe. I suggest you actually watch some of Derren's stage shows then to see what his techniques look like when performed. Far more impressive AND specific than I've ever seen Sally perform. Evening of wonders (especially the oracle part) & his Messiah TV show would be a good start. In the mean time answer me this: why cant Sally (or any other psychic) pass a simple controlled test?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@thenig You certainly don't come across as open minded. You read like one of those people who does not believe and looks for every possible explanation not to. You seem to be making a lot of this Darren brown, his stage tricks are one thing, Sally another. Has Sally ever been investigate? What would the control be? You might as well ask if spirits where real why doesn't one just pop up and say hello to me......
zaftra 1 year ago
What you need to bare in mind, it wouldn't be the psychic under investigation, it would be the 'spirits' talking through her. Even then, if the wanted to play, in the most controlled environments, if she did come up with some precise information, it could ALWAYS be dismissed has cold reading. What experiment would you suggest?
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra It doesnt matter where the information comes from the results can be tested. Heres one test: 10 believers like yourself get read by Sally behind a screen. No talking from either of you. She writes down the readings or dictates them. The 10 believers then have to identify their own readings afterwards. 6 out of 10 is a pass. Do that twice and Im converted on the spot.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@the null hypothesis or burden of proof? dear, dear me. this little chestnut didn't take long. Basically you can go around saying things aren't true with nothing to back it up, but every body as to run around supplying you was evidence. she IS supplying the evidence - you just don't believe it. Your test, firstly, where did I write anywhere I believe? you seem to be telling me what I believe... Secondly, your test is somewhat flawed...
zaftra 1 year ago
.. what if the 'spirits' don't want to communicate? secondly, what if there HAS to be some form of verbal comunication for the spirits to 'zone in' as it where. Not unlike a mother shouting for her child on a busy beach. If in a stony silent reading she could not 'perform' would you take that as concrete proof she is a fraud? there are many variables
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra The spirits seem happy enough to come through night after night on stage and long days of TV shoots. She can have time for this test. OK let her yap away, but the subjects dont get to hear what shes saying. The verbal side doesnt seem to be a problem when she starts a show or writes in a mag/paper. You see all I'm asking her to do is what she normally does but with little controls that would stop cheats but would not stop one with true ability. Dont you think she could pass such a test?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
@ yes, she communicating it. And this post clearly shows your scepticism, just the way it's worded with the sarcasm and using words like yap. It is not SHE who needs to talk, it might be they the subjects, thus you have your cold reading fuel. I have absolutely no idea if she could. But as asked, what if the spirits don't want to play that day, would that make her a fraud in your mind. The thing is, unless or until YOU receive something that personal, you will always remain sceptic.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I don't deny I'm a skeptic, of course I am. This is not a bad thing. But show me credible evidence & I'll change my mind on this issue. All your issues with my test don't seem to be issues to Sally otherwise. So why the need to make all these excuses for her? Spirits do seem to come to her in abundance. Shes does write things in mags & papers without any feedback (verbal or otherwise) from the people that she is writing about. Why looking for outs? Whats the problem?
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
Again you are using loaded words. Will you please stop this manipulation. These are not excuses for her, but questioning YOUR or any experiment. I'm sorry if you don't like that idea but it is also part of science to do this. but what would I know, apparently lying about my scientific. This seems to be deteriorating it to an argument, which so often does with closed minded people of any belief.
zaftra 1 year ago
You have shown yourself to be fully sceptical, mocking, sarcastic, and with the exception of the using usual 'if i see evidance etc' are quite willing to dismiss anecdotal spouting and insinuate lies when someone tells you something that does not fit YOUR belief.
zaftra 1 year ago
@zaftra I dont think you are lying at all. I do think we can ALL be fooled and become victim to human weakness that lead us to false conclusions. When people thought the sun revolved around the earth they weren't being dishonest. They were fooled by their own instincts & pre-conceived beliefs. Their interpretation of the available data was flawed. This is what I am claiming of you. Not that you are lying.
thenigotoffthebus 1 year ago
You openly doubted my science background. I have no interest with debating anything with people who have to resort to calling people liars. your silly examples of the moon are no more convincing then when atheist use them. To me it comes across as if you have run out of any constructive argument. Nor is patronising me. Are you saying I and all the rest are so easily fool and you (because you are sceptic) are the only ones immune to being duped. Please don't be so arrogant.
zaftra 1 year ago