Cap-and-trade like Soviet-style central planning

[ChineseAtheist]

Wow, you Americans are really uneducated, when it comes to the USSR. Don't you know, how much pollution we had?

Kyoto makes an international market out of the good CO², it is the opposite of socialism, which would consider, that air/pollution is a human right.

It is a tribute to capitalism. This hate by the right is a sign of weakness.

[PartyForEquality]

McCain is for Cap-and-Trade...so it is not an Obama agenda.

[PartyForEquality]

@PartyForEquality ...sorry, I meant it is not just an Obama agenda...

[exposetruthwolf]

The story of AL GORE&CARLYLY Group-S.Frisco-called EX PRESIDENTS co.(GREENHOUSE-GLOBAL WARMING-CLIMATE CHANGE- GREEN ENERGY-SMART ENERGY)-It's LIE-LIE! Thats why NAME keeps changing like LIES chg! You can call it CARBON CAP&TAX is what it does-Another Globalist Scheme so bunch of corrupt EX-Presidents-like RAMOS (Philippians,) MAJOR(Brit,)Al GORE can steal more $BILLIONS from TAXES-(ROMANS taxed WORLD)the GOV. PUPPETS must have to join the Ruling Elite ranks vs.FEMA death camps with us PLEBS!.

[Thisawareness]

For a great expose of the Cap & Trade, which Gore & his Goldman Sachs shysters are set up to cash in on

Input youtube

"The Huge Mistake Climate Change Solutions 2009"

Help stop the Carbon tax fraud, call your Government Rep & say "NO" to Cap & Trade!

INFORMATIONLIBERATION(dot)com

[nyteaparty]

Great, more cost to the consumer and taxes. WTF is wrong with people?

[titans797979]

Obama is as socialist as Hitler. 3 more years to go. ouch!

[madebutante]

Proves that Obama is a free market loopy, like Greenspan, the bankers who robbed America, and Milton Friedman. Ronald Reagan on Steroids.

[spartan2600]

Its true, ever since Clinton, the democrats have become a right-wing party for moderate republicans.

[spartan2600]

great way to scare people away from reasonable policy, pull out the old boogeyman- soviet communism.

caring about our children and our future is communism!

[larrywalkerntbi]

yeah, we'd hate to look at history and the hell that was the Soviet Union to be careful to avoid it. Because we'd much rather have our children slaves in a communist society but be 1/100 of a degree cooler than the opposite.

[spartan2600]

Avoiding global climate catastrophy does not require us to model the Soviet Union, we don't even have to be socialist. All we have to do is realize that some aspects of capitalism don't work well, and that we need to restrain them. This isn't "communist" any more than lowering taxes is "anarchist."

[TheClassicalLiberal]

Yah, I don't think its right to pull the communist card. The problem with the soviet government was that the soviet people didn't run their own system more than anything. What if people brought up the thousands of years of feudalism or slavery when talking about free market capitalism? Bringing up extremes isn't a constructive way to talk about things in a civilized manner. Its not a good way to make an argument, because it automatically turns people off.

[spartan2600]

Completely agreed. Making absurd claims won't make anybody agree, except for those who already agree with your absurdism.

[drgnfly1007]

The idea of central planning comes from the COP15 treaty requiring taxing of wealthier countries. The new EU president van Rompuy just announced that 2009 marks the beginning of Global governance via the G20 (financial crisis) & COP15 in December.

Why countries have to sign a legally binding treaty that taxes the populace. If the people, govt's, countries care why don't they just do something independently? Why does govt need to make an agreement to an outside force?

[grandwolfe]

Mars is going through a global warming. How is that humanitys fault? I'm sure Al Gore can explain to all of us; because Al Gore is nobal peace winner.

[Gormanmod]

How does the bill stop big corporations from buying smaller ones that can't afford this, thus making them monopolies and so rich they can ignore the cap and do the complete opposite?

[michaeltheman8888]

YES WE CAN...... ruin america

[cherob1984]

Xtreme, I like the way you put that!! Its true, the world is changing, but I believe there is no way us humans can slow it down let alone stop it. And like you I don't believe we are going to die from it!!

[conspiracy777]

A carbon tax or a cap and trade tax will be the biggest and most intrusive tax ever made. People don't realize how big this monster is and how many thousands of tentacles it will have. Once you are subject to a tax, you become a subject to the tax enforcer. If you don't think we are serfs now, just wait for this tax and you'll realize that you're a total slave once it's in place.

A truly sovereign nation is made of truly sovereign individuals.

A TAX WON"T REDUCE POLLUTION!!!

[NoMercyJustCruelty]

More fking communism masquerading as "caring about mother earth" what shit. check out the dead soviet union's environmental record.

[archcon3]

Cap and trade is based on bogus science and a bogus premise. First there is no unanimous or even really a majority opinion im the scientific community that global warming is happening and that we are signifigantly changing the enviornment. Second punishing the american people by taxing them to death dosent mean where going to come up with an alternate source of energy any faster.

[xtreme1002003]

And by the way, CO2 only makes up 3% of all the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Water vapor accounts for 95% of all the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

[simeon0204]

okay first, potency of GHG at retaining the infrared radiation are different. simply we pick on CO2 because we can influence it.

GHGs retain infrared radiation bouncing back from earth- fact

CO2 is a GHG - fact

if you increase GHGs in the atmosphere more infrared radiation is held in thus warming the atmosphere - FACT

thus increase CO2=warm the atmosphere.

the question of how much of an affect it has i'm not arguing because there are uncertainties.

but you cannot deny those facts!!!

[xtreme1002003]

We can influence it? Even though we only produce 5% of all the CO2 in the atmosphere? Even if greenhouse gases did cause global warming, 95% of the CO2 would be produced in the atmosphere anyway, so resorting to a crazy cap-and-trade system wouldn't do us any good at all and would only hurt us.

[simeon0204]

i'm not relying on a documentary for information. i base my opinions and believes on facts that to me are logical. i base my opinions on facts that were thrown to the scientific community for approval before publishing. that is evidence. you cannot base your opinion on a documentary especially when talking about serious issues. internet is not a reliable source.

How do i know you are christian? i'm sorry that if i offended you but to me that's how your argument sounds.

[xtreme1002003]

And there are also peer-reviewed scientific articles that confirm my opinion as well. Check out this research article by the University of Maine: "Evidence for sun-climate link reported by UMaine scientists."

I am a Christian, but Christians are people, and anytime you attack them for their personal beliefs when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand, people tend to get kinda offended.

And people do censor each other, whether they agree with me or not. They shouldn't but people do it.

[xtreme1002003]

Look, I have to go, but I'll continue this debate later. I have stuff I have to work on. Have a great day.

[simeon0204]

yeah lol. me too. and you have a good day too. but seriously all your facts are from the "documentary".

[xtreme1002003]

There's also another documentary that says we're not causing global warming too. It's by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) and is called "Global Warming: Doomsday Called Off."

"Changing Weather? Facts and Fallacies About Climate Change and Weather Extremes"

"Temperature and CO2 Correlations Found in Ice Core Records" (pay attention to and read carefully this whole thing please, and you'll see what we're talking about with the time lag between temps and CO2.)

[simeon0204]

this is the last time i'm gonna say anything here.

just so you understand where i stand.

i believe that rise in CO2 has an impact on the environment and that the CO2 emission must be regulated and cap and trade certificates system looks good to me...not perfect but its gonna make polluters pay. simple...as that.

[xtreme1002003]

Ok. This is the last reply I'm going to make to you, then. The current warming trend started well before cars and planes were invented, and took place mostly during a time (before the year 1940) when industrial production, and thus human production of CO2, was very limited. After WWII, during the post-war economic boom, we began to produce a lot more CO2. Yet, despite that, temperatures declined for a whopping four decades, before rising again. Does man-made GW still make any sense to you?

[xtreme1002003]

I said that last post was going to be my last, but I ran out of room. Anyway, I would finally like to add that the Earth has actually been COOLING since 1998, despite the fact that CO2, including man-made CO2, keeps on increasing in the atmosphere. Look it up!

[simeon0204]

i don't need to look up anything. you know why? because for the past 3 years that has been the focus of my studies at McGill University in Montreal. and i cannot begin to explain to you how wrong your view is. but i guess it does take some odd years of university level education to understand so i wouldn't expect you to do it. best of luck in your life!!! hopefully u learn something from this discussion.

[xtreme1002003]

Well, one Canadian climate researcher who agrees with me is Dr. Ian Clark, an arctic paleontologist at the University of Ottawa. Look him up, he's a great guy. =) And did you Google "the Earth has been cooling since 1998?" This cooling was despite the fact that the amount of human CO2 has been increasing over the last decade.

[cherob1984]

what about 20 yrs ago when the gov't said the earth was cooling?? They cant make up their mind, Global Warming, Global Cooling. There is NO consistency in this matter

[xtreme1002003]

The earth is cooling. "OH NO, WE'RE GONNA DIE!"

The earth is warming. "OH NO, WE'RE GONNA DIE!"

This is just deja vu of global cooling. This warming is absolutely not unusual and isn't going to kill us.

[enomarekim]

This is insane, they are making you pay for carbon? All combustion releases co2, even cellular respiration! Are they going to try to put a tax on human life next? Faith in the global warming gospel is giving science a bad name. It is basically a religion, based not in scientific evidence, but in belief. Even their key argument has been proven false. Earths record shows that when temp goes up, co2 concentration follows, and when temp goes down, co2 concentration later goes down. Temp drives co2!

[simeon0204]

are you retarded? you can't be serious...

[xtreme1002003]

No. The temp leads CO2 in the ice core record by about 800 years.

[simeon0204]

LOL..people like you make me laugh... did bible tell you that?

[xtreme1002003]

You're a really funny guy. Your cheap shot there almost made me bust a gut. If you take a careful look at the ice core record, you'll notice that I'm right. Watch The Great Global Warming Swindle. You'll see.

[simeon0204]

are you seriously gonna believe channel 4 and its producers over IPCC? and what cheap shot? my bible reference is merely a comparison of an argument that could be brought up under the same thing that you are saying. i mean have you watched zeigheist? i mean that "documentary" discredited the whole christian religion.

what i'm saying is get your facts. base your opinions on facts not believes.

p.s. the great global warming swindle has MANY problems in its facts and assessments.

[xtreme1002003]

Yes, I'm going to believe the BBC and qualified Ph.D scientists over an institution that has many people who censor good science. The IPCC has made incorrect statements like "mosquitoes species that transmit malaria do not usually survive where the mean winter temperature drops below 16-18 degrees celsius." It's a well established fact that mosquitos actually do very well in the Arctic. So an organization like that cannot be taken seriously.

[simeon0204]

key word: usually (first of all) secondly i don't understand how could you argue this? how could anyone argue these facts? there is more evidence by scientists that are not on the IPCC that still come to same conclusions. how can u believe the people who were sued for misleading the audience, providing wrong information and assessment of data and had to change their "documentary" because of it. and at last. i tried to criticize the documentary before, but i was censored myself. hypocrites?

[xtreme1002003]

I can believe them because there are articles that themselves say there is a lag of CO2 behind temp. and that solar activity has more to do with Earth's climate than CO2. Here's a good one: look up "100,000-Year Climate Pattern Linked To Sun's Magnetic Cycles." It's a report in the ScienceDaily, which specializes in research news. Just because they were sued doesn't mean there was actually any merit behind the lawsuits, even if the plaintiffs won. Did you think of that?

[simeon0204]

okay did u read the article? first the author says himself he needs more evidence. secondly he noted himself that temp. rises due to rise in CO2 gas, thirdly he still need to prove his "THEORY" that role of solar activity will make worse the rise of temp. due to rise of CO2 worse.

[xtreme1002003]

If you're talking about the first article I referred to, he was simply saying he wanted to make sure that his beliefs regarding how the sun affects Earth's climate are true before drawing any final conclusions. And we all know that the "it's just a theory" argument in science is a bogus one.

"Sun's Magnetic Field May Impact Weather And Climate: Sun Cycle Can Predict Rainfall Fluctuations"

"Surface Warming And The Solar Cycle"

[simeon0204]

dude u can't just give me the name of the article.

but anyway in the past two article u've hinted at did not prove your view point. why? because the scientist behind them do believe that CO2 is driving temp increase. Relationship between sun and earth climate is different. this is where you are mislead. you cannot deny the fact that CO2 is affecting the temperature. This is proven with a simple but most important mechanism - greenhouse effect. next time you do your article search look it up!

[xtreme1002003]

They are experts on solar activity- not on all the factors affecting climate or on the Earth's atmosphere.

On the contrary, the ocean dissolves more CO2 when it's cooler than when it's warmer. Therefore, if the Earth warms up, more CO2 is going to be released into the atmosphere. It takes hundreds to thousands of years for the ocean to warm up or cool down, which explains perfectly well the time lag between temps and CO2..

[simeon0204]

I"ve read that article you mentioned and i've studied that graph in my courses. it is not a concrete evidence.

if we gonna talk about what's driving the composition of the atmosphere then lets get to the microbial world. because that's what ultimately drove the earth atmosphere from CO2 15-20 times higher than they are today.

what i'm trying to say is that we need to reduce our effect on environment and making people pay for pollution is the right way to do it.

[xtreme1002003]

Climate models based on the effect of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere consistently predict that as you go up into the atmosphere, the rate of warming increases, when, in actuality, the temperatures at the ground have a higher rate of warming than the upper parts of the atmosphere.

[xtreme1002003]

And I can argue this because they usually do THRIVE in the Arctic and that it can be concluded that the IPCC, based on that, as well, as a bunch of other misinformation, doesn't check their facts very carefully.

And yes there are scientists other than the IPCC ones who agree with you. But it doesn't mean they're right. You have to look at the evidence, and many of the scientists gloss over important evidence because they want people to believe we're causing GW so they can get extra funding.

[xtreme1002003]

Besides, any documentary can be disproven, including "The Inconvenient Truth" and that anti-Christian documentary. But just look up info on solar activity and climate and CO2's lagging behind temperature and you'll see tons of articles on that.

[xtreme1002003]

Oh and by the way, it was a cheap shot because you attacked me for being a Christian despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

[GodBlessGoreFisher]

Mr. President I left a note for everyone world wide at this youtube. watch?v=P9YtVQCu-Ww

I am so glad you told Tom to relay to me that you wanted to have the event of all events at Love Park in Philadelphia beginning on Bastille Day July14th 2008 at LOVE PARK.

Signed,

An American Patriot and World Patriot like you sir Jeff Bootstraps Pachuco Fisher

[mrchestypuller]

"Kyoto has not caused a single economy to crash" - The fact is Kyoto has been a failure, and the countries have not stuck by their goals because it would have hurt them too much. Rationing energy use will certainly hurt an expanding economy - it will make it impossible to expand. It is giving government a lot of power that they should not have. Imagine the bureacracies needed to support such a scheme. Would probably be bigger than the IRS.

[Alguru52]

Art Laffer check out his prediction in 06 when he argued with Schiff on Kudlow. He knows nothing, anyone who has their money with him I feel sorry for.

[Whoo69]

Now even a gov't market solution is being called "central planning" by market "experts." Jesus christ! How do we placate these Friedmanite laissez-faire morons? I'm sick of hearing their bullshit. I'm sick of them running the economy.  Now the dollar is falling, more and more as time goes by, and gas prices are through the roof, and they've done nothing to combat that. In fact, with more trade agreements, they're making it worse with more cheap imports and less exports. A worthless dollar

[stephendedlus]

thank you whoo69 for injecting a little bit of sanity in an insane world full of idelogues and blowhards. the truth is in cause and effect - not principle and sentiment (that goes for the left and the right)!

[Whoo69]

Kudlow, fuck you, you goddamn elitist! I wonder how much this guy makes? I know Cramer has 100s of millions. Only these elitists and economists believe the whole "the market is perfect" and "all gov't is bad" bullshit. The truth is somewhere in between. Sometimes the market fails, and sometimes gov't does. Kudlow is being a fucking fearmonger. "the economy is gonna die! Jobs will be lost! Oh, the horror!" what nonsense. Kyoto has not caused a single economy to crash, and he knows it.

[Whoo69]

Arthur Laffer?? Is that the same Laffer who proposed the "laffer curve" which, if I remember right, talks about an alleged relationship between revenues and tax rates and says that lower taxes actuallyk produces more? Of course, there is some evidence of this if you reduce from a very high tax to a lower tax, but there has to be a cutoff point. If you reduce the national income tax to 10 or 5%, there's no fucking way it'll continue to bring in MORE AND MORE revenue. It'll start giving less.

[enomarekim]

the middle class will begin to grow again, and more of them paying less percentage will produce nearly the same amount of income to the government. of course, the income tax is illegal, and the government has no right to directly tax you and give the money to somebody else.

[Whoo69]

A true market solution to global warming and pollution is "soviet"?? WTF??

[TempestStormwind]

RE: Comparisons to the soviets.

youtube com/watch?v=2T4UF_Rmlio

Start the video at 29:50. You'd probably like it; it's dealing with those who think that, quote, "environmentalists are like watermelons: green on the outside, red on the inside."

(The first half of the video may interest you as well, but it's less pertinent to this topic.)

[rsmith02]

Hybrid Priuses give better global warming reductions than the little EU diesels as diesel has higher CO2 content gallon per gallon.  Germany is the word-leader in solar however.

This Soviet stuff is crap. Cap and trade is a market-based program.

[kaiserblazer]

Central planned economy is superior to market economy.

[gregoryleebates]

Give one example!! Russia? Cuba? China?

[A0Refrigerator]

A carbon tax, more money to the government. Reduction of usage so fuel companies can stay in business for more years. We used to have full working Electric cars ready to be massed out to the world.

What the hell?

[d3p3ch3mod3]

Calling it communist to ask for regulations is a scare tactic. I'd bet a lot that all the business that moan about a command economy and shit recieve millions from the govt in subsidies. I've never heard any Fair Tax fanatic bitch about our tax dollars going to a corporation. Combine that with lobbying and media influence, unchecked private power is the closest thing we have to communism in the US.

[ManufacturedThoughts]

The two in the Black suits are total micro-economic neo-fascists. They can only talk about what they have be brainwashed from a materialistic conservative book called "Road to Surfdom" by Hayek.

[GhenisCanne]

I read "The Road to Serfdom" and not only was I greatly impressed with his logic and facts, I learned to spell Serfdom.

[d3p3ch3mod3]

Yea the big talking point among free marketers against global warming agreements like kyoto and accepting govt assistance is that you're basicly a medieval serf.. which if you think about how feudalism works and how large corporations work is ironic as hell

[Reenlightenment]

No, the argument among free marketers is that under any socialist construct, the overwhelming majority of people become serfs to a small ruling class. Oh, and Microeconomics was fathered by Keynes, the darling of socialists everywhere, not of free-marketers. But you might be on to something with facism... If you have actually cracked the binding on a copy of "the road to SERFdom" you would find that fascism is only the logical progression & evolution of socalist ideology.

[d3p3ch3mod3]

Ummm how is that not exactly what i was saying? Kyoto and Welfare are generally things you guys point to as socialism. I'm saying that the irony is that you guys are so concerned about socialism creating a ruling class and never stop to consider whether or not capitalism could ever have the same consequences.

[Reenlightenment]

It's a nuance, for sure. I didn't want you to think that the notion was limited to enviro-fascist regulations. No I do not fear that in a free market, people can become "subjects" so to speak. How can it? In a free market, it is you & I who give a corparate entity it's power. We can also take it away. (limited to 500 words)

[Reenlightenment]

(continued)In socialist constructs, where there is a strong command & control economy (socialism, communism, fascism) a corporate entity is free to buy it's power from the government, & that is exactly what happens. If you are concerned about subversive plots to obtain power, you should really follow the money in this whole carbon credit fiasco. Some people are getting very wealthy & powerful through the hand of governments worldwide by promoting these regulations.

[Reenlightenment]

Ever wonder why Al Gore is worth $100 million? Ever stop to think why he is on so many boards of directors? Connections...

[d3p3ch3mod3]

I'd like to run this by you because I think I might debate my Ron Paul supporting friend on this. Ok, you think free market is the answer to everything right? Sooo do you support Anti-trust laws and those sort of restrictions? I think there's proof that free market can be bad for competition right?

[Reenlightenment]

I'm not a Ron Paul supporter. Some of his Ideas are highly palatable, but on others, the man is just insane. No I don't think anti-trust laws are necessary. The only entity that can set up a true monopoly is the government. Bill Gates cannot hold a gun to Steve Jobs head & tell him to stop competing... Governments can & have. If you get all warm & tingly inside when you hear a socialist talk about nationalizing an industry, you are a supporter of monopolies.

[d3p3ch3mod3]

i'm against command economics of course. a monopoly has nothing to do with enforcement by violence, it happens naturally. the type of thing i'm against is when a local govt gives taxpayers money to say wallyworld to move in and kill all relative mobility with outsourced competition, just to create a lot of dead end minimum wage hell. and as far as corporations not being able to use violence, they don't have to. they buy advertising

[MacGyverKilla]

That's just not true! The Prius fuel economy is unrealisticly measured. Don't believe everything Al Gore is telling you in his hypocrit movie.

BTW start talking about the other technologies I pointed out!

[MacGyverKilla]

That guy with the black suit and black tie is a complete fucking moron! He said that europe does nothing on the technological side, which is a ridiculous statement, since european cars are the most fuel efficent ones you can buy for money. Additionally, most of the energy generation technlogy comes from germany, e.g. Siemens.

[MacGyverKilla]

If you believe that renewables work (which i don't) you can put winturbines on the list, since germany is leading in that branch as well. BTW Siemens also leader in carbon trapping technology. So WTF is that idiot talkin about?

[Reenlightenment]

Listen carefully guys! He said, The PRESIDENT said that most of the GOVERNMENTAL R&D is being done by the US & Japan...Siemens is not the government. Furthermore, the "idiot" in the black suit & tie is Daniel Yergin, He is one of the top experts in the subjects of both energy & economics. He'd eat your intellectual lunch.