I think it is quite hard to compare generations...However, my opinion is the top 3 horses would have truly ran that way. Seattle Slew was a tremendous horse and would have been able to run with these other champions. (Greatest race run by a horse outside of Secretariat's Belmont is Seattle Slew's 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup). Take a look at it....It is simply amazing that he almost came back again and won it running against a rabbit and Affirmed, who he destroyed twice.
MOW and then Sec; two miracles; separated by enough time and technology that a "real" comparison isn't really possible. A good thing. In the end, does it really matter which is the greater champion? Without doubt together they are the greatest, they reside on Mt Olympus. I believe God sent a message to us in 1920 that was forgotten, so He sent a 2nd message to reinforce the notion of perfection and how rare it is that we must pause to fully appreciate what we have witnessed. An honor it is.
Ok, I know they are all great horses, but I gotta defend my personal favorite, Spectacular Bid.. he had a lot of heart and good endurance.. I think he would have been able to run closer with the big boys in this one.
Cmf4321 is a freaken retard times aren't everything. What your telling me is that a horse could run a mile and 1 4th under 138 pounds and lose by 2 seconds to a horse under 118 pounds so the horse under 118 is better even though it carried 20 pounds less. Freaken RETARDS
You can't tell me that Secretariat beat Man O War by 2 seconds. That's just because Secretariat had it easy if Man O War had the same factors he would have easily crushed secretariat. Man O War is hands down the best race horse ever. All you want to talk about is track time not the fact that Man O War only was behind 2 seconds yet carried 20 or 30 pounds more than Secretiat.
Man o war would of won. Secretariat got better times because he had lighter hooves, better track conditions, less weight to carry, and man o war only lost one race in which he was turned around at the start and started way behind. He got stuck inbetween horses when his jockey put him in a bad position and he only lost by a length. Secretariat lost many races in which none of them he had a reason to. This is why Man O War would win.
The final 'Quote' from Eddie Arcaro came after he seen Secretariat. His 1996 interview with Los angeles times writer Bill Christine Arcaro said Citation was the best 3 year old I ever rode And Kelso was the best 4 year old I ever rode But I rate Secretariat the "BEST' I have ever seen. It came from the article titled Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81. Its on page 2 of that article. Anyone can go there And read it. He also told Ron Turcotte Secretariat was the 'Best'.
Well considering that Secretariat holds the fastest Kentucky Derby record & was the first to break the 2 minute record...it doesn't take a genius to figure out who would win this race. He STILL holds the record & is the ONLY race horse in HISTORY that won the Kentucky Derby by INCREASING his speed over each quarter mile to break the record. NO horse has ever equaled that feat. Never will again. Sec was genetically the miracle of nature man can never duplicate. The 1973 Belmont is beyond us all.
What a Joke. MOW & Slew never ran a 1 1/4 mile under 2 minutes. It s like living in a land of OZ. The Bid world record in 1:57 4/5 & Secretariat was clocked in the same time 'pulling up' in the Marlboro Cup. These are the two that would have been up front by lengths.
I guess it doesn't matter that Man O' War didn't actually race in the Derby, eh?
And as spectacular as the Bid's statistics were, who did he beat besides the game Flying Paster? Revisionist history is always worth a chuckle, ain't it?
I totally agree that Man O'War, Secretariat and Seattle Slew are the 3 best in history.
I just watched video of Seattle Slew again. AMAZING what he did at beginning of the Kentucky Derby. He coasted at the end of the Preakness. And he won easy against Affirmed.
I'm kinda surprised that they didn't use the first 10 horses of Blood Horses' top 100 racers of the 20th century for the feild... or was this done before the list came out?
Love the clip fantastic!!,Eddie Arcaro,the jockey of Citation,when they asked Eddie who was the greatest Secretariat or Man O War,Eddie replied neither,Phar Lap was the greatest
Before Equipoise began his comeback as a four-year-old
there appeared in the West
an enormous gelding considered by many experts
--including jockey Eddie Arcaro, New York State Steward Francis Dunne and Marshall Cassidy, who succeeded his father as dean of American racing officials--
as the greatest thoroughbred ever to race on the American continent. What is more striking, the horse concerned gained his lofty stature in exactly 2 minutes 2 4/5 seconds. Phar Lap. Quote
As a four-year-old Phar Lap won fourteen consecutive stakes,
including the Melbourne Cup under 138 pounds. In the century-plus history of Australia's greatest race, only three times has it been won under higher weight. At five the big gelding was eight for nine, his sole loss having been in the Cup, in which he carried 150 pounds and the winner 98.
@LIGHTNINGB0BBY ,cool thanks,Frank Dunne saw MOW,SEC and Phar Lap,and thought Phar Lap was the greatest,I thought Eddie said it too,Eddie raced against Phar Lap,
This was a cool idea..never heard it before. Its all speculative really but I had to chuckle about the finish. There is no way on God's green earth would mow be anywhere close to Sec. And why isnt Sham in there? I have no doubt he'd crush many triple crown winners. Fun to listen to though. I'd put Seattle S. up there with Sham in my opinion. Sec..Seattle S..and Sham. The bottom line is that on each horse's best day..or close to it..nobody would touch Sec. Not even close. Maybe within 2 lengths.
Please. Secretariat had too many "bad days" not to worry about that when comparing to other horses' best days.
Sec might be close, as long as he didn't hurt his lip and was wearing his rogue's badge, but MOW had smoking figures back then, and things have changed. MOW wearing his steel shoes and bowed tendons on today's track could still beat Sec in lightweight Al most of the time.
Ok. Well 4get Sec weighed more,set a track record for each race of the trip crown, 2 still standing and 1 world rec. Horse of the year as a 2 & 3 year old. Ran neg. splits in the derby, unheard of. Had one of the highest beyer speed records ever assigned. Espn among others consider him the greatest ever. Set a seperate world record. Ran against better competition, esp. Sham, and more older horses and beat them. Avg 37.5 mph in belmont race. Mow's "smoking figures" cant touch Sec. and never will.
MOW set a total of 10 time records - 8 in his 3yo season of 11 starts. 2yo were just stakes records. 3yo from 1 mi up to 1-5/8 mi (unsurpassed by Sec on turf, eve). 1 equaled TR, 2 NTR, 2 NAR, 3 NWR. All of them absolute (not dirt only). He destroyed several records in the process, as opposed to shaving them - and proved it with consistently scary margins. His figures had to be big - all the time.
Tracks, shoes, starts; just about everything was different and to MOW's disadvantage.
The poll of ESPN RACING people chose MOW over Sec. You're thinking of the overall much-more public general list of "athletes" wherein Sec got the nod at 35 because those people saw him run. And of course there is the Blood-Horse list.
As for opposition - tell me how much you know about MOW's opposition, many of whom beat Exterminator and Sir Barton as well as were beaten, and many who set records of their own. Its possible they werent as good overall as Secs, but they were not mules. I will grant you he hardly faced anyone because they were scared off (and couldnt pick up beyond 4th money then). But those MOW beat he met many times (Upset 7x), unlike modern races where they meet once as a rule.
Mow beat horses in an era that had little quality. U dont suprise me with the excuses of the tracks, his shoes and starts. Thats standard. His winning margins mean nothing when facing crap horses. Mow was great for his time but that has nothing to do with after it. He cant compare to horses that came after him, esp Sec. Competition, times set for specific distances, Sec owned Mow with both of those. Both, often were not ridden 100% I give you that. But this isnt really an arguement..
Few argue that Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player ever, yet he started in the same era as MOW. Being of a different age didn't make him lesser than greats of today. Age doesn't matter. You need to normalize for the era (baseball is much different, yet Babe is still #1 for most). Jordan is fantastic, too, despite being "new".
MOW's margins meant alot because they were coupled with fantastic time-crushers - they were high figures. If they weren't, you'd be correct, except for "**".
And just ask Hatton or any other individual who saw both Mow and Sec, the list is longer for those that claim Sec was far better than those who thought otherwise. Just because Wilt scored 100 points in his day and set his records, doesnt mean people think hes the best over Jordan, who set his own records in a diff era with better competition and orginality. Jordan is the best exactly as Sec. is the best when compared. Mow and Wilt were the best of their daybut most people dont claim them as best
Can you produce this list of people who "saw both", much less their choices? I've seen some listed who thought Phar Lap was better than both of them, seeing them all (never mind other horses such as Citation). Proves nothing.
I guess my comments about Babe went over your head. Jordan is the best ("new"), Babe is the best ("old"); I agree with your ESPN overall list on those. Some of us are more objective than others and don't simply dismiss old-timers because "newer is always better".
Then why does Secretariat hold all of the records for speed...and not MOW? Same race...different era. The difference...36 years the fastest speeds in HISTORY..and all horses are chasing Secretariat's records...not MOW's...he doesn't hold any:-( MOW was great for his generation...but, by far, the 1970's had much superior race horses. And Secretariat outraced them all...My cat agrees...he keeps banging my elbow while I'm trying to type this...LOL
Why? Why did MOW hold some records for 50 years? Riddle me that? Why did Secretariat fail to surpass MOW's longest distance despite advantages?
MOW raced 50 years prior, and things had changed (but NOT the horse overall; they were pretty well gelled by then).
It's not shocking that records are broken as time passes. Sec's have been passed, but no-one says "'Sec Beater' is greater than Sec". That's the simplistic approach.
If I had the time and actually cared enough to reply to your request for a list I would but I dont. I refer back to my last post. That says it all as Sec. did it all. Almost everyone seems to know this but you. Modern horse trainers are always on the look out for the next Sec..not MOW. If you dont think Jordan was a better athlete than Babe you are more our of your mind than I think you are. Same with Sec. vs MOW. Sec. did more..he was an original. He did things not matched even up to today.
Sure, because Sec was "recent" and in THEIR memory, and he's a stratospheric great.
The fact is people STILL talk of MOW (including the "experts" and people in the industry) and it's still 50/50 on who is greatest, despite the horse being 50 years older.
(If he's original, why did he steal MOW's moniker?)
You totally misunderstand my ESPN statements, the main point being it's OK for new or old to be tops. I said Jordan was TOP BASKETBALL, and Ruth was TOP BASEBALL; ignoring overall athletic ranking (Jim Thorpe should be #1 for handling it all so well, but I'm sure you dismiss the old codger).
And I think you missed my point..but if you want MOW to be best in HIS era..fine have it. But that is a boring conversation. Sec is the best ever hands down. I'd say Bo Jackon or Deion Sanders or any # of athletes would make Thorpe look silly. But see you got yourself stuck in comparing eras..as that is the only way MOW fans can argue his greatness. We went from Babe ruth to Thorpe lol. U R missing the point entirely. Sec. is the greatest ever..old or new. This really isnt an argument.
secretariats times were always run at his full speed.
man o' war was so fast he was held in every race he ran.
tracks are also faster now, so there is no question that man o' war was the only horse in history to set records when he was being slowed in the homestrecth, and is
you got it backwards sec was never allowed full out mow was 15 lengths behind sec in the belmont at the old finish sec is deff the better horse w/ mow 2nd then ruffian
MOW ran 50 years prior to Sec - huge differences, and not "the breed was better". Tracks were slower being less refined (even Citation's were shown to be faster than MOW's day), MOW had to carry steel shoes rather than lightweight Al, and started from the unfair "barrier" (which he broke through several times or was held up by a starter). Yet he won, setting 10 total records, despite problems on the track, huge concessions, and NEVER wearing special equipment a`la Sec.
I have to agree with cmf...Man O' War was indeed great, as were all of the horses named here, but on their respective best days, I'll take Secretariat over all of them. Remember, this was a machine, he didn't just win, he humiliated the field.
Interesting video but wrong outcome. Secretariat would have outraced MOW. All research shows that MOW's times never matched Secretariats in speed...the closest his times came were at least 6 lengths slower than Secretariat. Most were between 10-20 lengths behind. MOW always like to take the lead. Secretariat is the only horse in history that was recorded to INCREASE his speed. That's why Secretariat, not MOW, still holds the track records. MOW was exceptional. Secretariat was supernatural.
If times aren't everything...then why the clock...I thought this was racing. Some horses seem greater because they had the luck of racing in an era where no horses set track records. The only way to compare horses is their TIMES. They all RUN the same race. By setting ALL 3 track records in the TC, Secretariat is still the FASTEST. Sec's speed hasn't been broken in 36 years! Turco didn't even use his whip! Sham had the misfortune of running against the greatest. He also broke a record w/ Sec.
@cmf4321,example,Kingston Rule(son of secretariat) won the 1990 Melbourne Cup(world richest 2mile race) with the fastest time ever and he was average horse dose that make he the best melb.cup winner no-way,and can u compare race times from a heavy track to a good track no!,so there r many other factors,Sec was a champ,Spectacular Bid best American horse of all time
Bid had the fortunate of NOT running against Secretariat. TIMES DON'T LIE. This is racing. The TC was only won by 11horses & Sec. STILL holds the track records for all 3. He also broke other American & world records. Secretariat & Man O' War rate as the 2 greatest race horses in the U.S. The only difference..Sec. was faster. Holding records for 37 years & counting. No horse will ever duplicate Secretariat's speed. Bid certainly didn't. His times r 2 slow. Sham was even faster than Bid.
THE BID broke seven track records. He broke a track record in a route race as a two year old which is unheard of.THE BID also is in distinct company going undefeated in the much more difficult handicap division for older horses. Three other horses have accomplished what BID did. Man O War(1920), Tom Fool (1953), Cigar (1995). Not to diminish what eleven other horses did in the TC. But to go undefeated in the handicap division is something the general racing public should take notice.
BTW, if you do your research, you'll see that Secretariat broke more than 3 records in the TC! He broke several others. American & world records. It wasn't luck. His speed & intelligence made him superior in every way. Still the most perfect horse genetically & physically to ever race. The more you read about him, the more you'll understand why even scientists don't feel another Secretariat will ever come along. And BTW, he is still the most watched horse on youtube...36 years after retiring.
who cares about stupid times,so in formula one racing if u have the quickest time does that make u the best no! again!!your point about times is flawed,
And if u want to learn about the most perfect horse genetically and physically,read about PHAR LAP"THE RED TERROR"from Australia the greatest horse the world has ever seen,what he achieved will never be repeated,ps i have read about Sec and he is a champion, but times arent everything my friend
It's called RACING. If any athlete races in an era where NO athlete is setting any records...and wins all of his races...WHO cares? Certainly not the history books. Being faster than inferior athletes doens't make a legend. If everyone is running the same race...only TIMES differentiate them. Remember Roger Bannister? Mark Spitz...and Michael Phelps. Oh I forgot...times DON'T matter...(smile)
@cmf4321,u Americans are dumber than i thought,racing is about tracks,rivals,number of wins,racing conditions,gates,weather,so times are just a tiny factor,Carl Lewis is regarded as one of the greatest athletes how many time records does he hold????none,horse racing is about racing not just times,yr really trying to push this time factor,when there are so many more factors,Citation was better than Sec and MOW
True, times are not every thing. Many horses in training can blast the clock but never achieve anything when it comes to real races. I must admit I root for Man O' War but I think if any horse could have lock horns with MOW it would be Phar Lap. Phar Lap should be commended for the things he had to overcome to become great. I would be interested in seeing Sec. try to run MOW & Phar Lap's race schedule & weight on nothing but water and oats like they did. But Americans are not dumb k...
@rarehonesty,great reply i think yr the only one with a decent response that makes sense,Sec was great,as was MOW,i think what what Phar Lap acheived is sumthing we will never see again,freaky,Spectacular Bid very underrated,I know Americans aren't dumb,but when u read dumb comments by cmf4321,u have to question it
Don't let cmf4321 get to you & its no use corresponding with him ether. He will eventually get tired of you finding the flaws in his logic, he'll call you stupid & ignore you. And don't asked him to cite sources cause he wont give them to you...
Not sure about Citation being the best but Arcaro spoke highly of him and that's something. Having the best say you where their best.
@RareHonesty How many views are on this youtube? Approx. 9,359 today. Now look at every race horse on youtube, add up how many people have viewed them, and that tells you what horses are of the most interest to people. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Ask Susan Boyles...lol
From the numbers. Add them up yourself. Those numbers will go even higher...especially after the younger generation sees the Disney movie scheduled in October of this year. When you look up all of your favorite horses...look up how many views and posts they have. Numbers don't lie..Secretariat deserves to be the most viewed..what he did in one year at only the age of 3...has never been done NOR duplicated in terms of speed. His TC wins will never be matched again. Especially not by 1 horse.
So you have no REAL evidence to back up the things you say, that makes me what to believe you even more. : /
P.S. All of Sec. speed records have been match or exceeded including the mile & a half time (by a second and change if I'm not mistaken) they where just not accomplished in the same race or the same track. And Disney is not the most informative of production companies (I dont trust movies in general) they will be in love with a fantasy not the real thing.
rarehonesty...how old are you? Your comments make no sense, and if I'm arguing with a child..I'll decline graciously. If you're an adult, that's scary. Your comments have no common sense nor an education. Please forgive me if you're a child. And you are mistaken regarding your "facts". So I'll decline any further comment regardless of yours. I don't think I've ever been so speechless reading a response:-( Never seen anything so "out there". Sorry.
Well if you would kindly ask me about the parts you don't understand instead of insulting me I would be happy to clarify, because you're the one sounding childish right now sir. Its hard for me to fit all the things I want to say in such a limited space. I just have to hope that people can read between the lines & I dont like posting too many replies on 1 comment because I find it obnoxious, but I will if I need to. Im not afraid to admit that I dont know everything, no one does.
hey gang!! they forgot tom fool--the dancer--and above all--what about...KING KELLY? BETTER KNOWN AS--KELSO!! 5 YEARS IN A ROW--HORSE OF THE YEAR!! COULD RUN AT ANY DISATNCE UNDER ANY WEIGHTS--AND WIN!! 'COURSE THEN AGAIN--LIKE WHIRLAWAY--HOW MANY HORSE CAN STAY IN THE MONEY-46 RACES IN A ROW!! AND BE A ONE-RUN PONY??? INTERESTING,HUH???
Sec was very good in sloppy conditions. He'd still get the job done. Shoes don't matter. Weight MAYBE makes Secretariat win by a few less lengths (doubt it). Look at the Derby times and you can see Sect beats MOW by about 14 lengths. Sec did 49 mph in the Derby home stretch. Maybe MOW never went as fast as he could have, but neither did Sec. MOW was great, but just couldn't make up the deficits, even on a 70's track. If today's tracks are even better, why does Sec still hold the records he does?
@heraclid13 It a total myth my good man that the tracks were much slower when MOW ran. Its another excuse for all the MOW & Citation lovers. Thats it plain & simple. Just look no further than the M.C. on a 'wet fast' track where Secretariat was clocked in 1:57 4/5 galloping out another furlong If it was a 1 1 /4 mile race the time would have been less than the 1:57 4/5 & he took the long way around the track in doing that. How about that. I can see a 1:57 flat.
Eyes and knowledge are more superior than guessing and IFs. Both Hughs and Hatton gave their 2 cents worth on the matter since they saw both MOW and Secretariat, so i have to go with them as well. I am sure they heard the arguments as well about weight,shoes conditions, foals and all the thises and thats. I take their opinions to heart, they saw, we only guess and make the IFs. Secretariat the horse of them all..
I lived during Secretarait, and have to say he would had won The Dream Derby. I have to also go by opinions of Hall of Fame Horse Trainer Hollie Hughs and race horse broadcaster Charles Hatton who both saw MOW as well as Secretariat and both said Secretariat was the horse. Secretariat winner of The Dream Derby.
Besides Sham who raced against Secretariat in the 73 Derby might had beaten most of them too. Sham held the second best derby record for years. Sham broke the Derby record as well in 73.
I feel Secretariat would had one. We can go by this and that but since never saw MOW, I have to go by the ones who saw them both and many say Secretariat was the horse. I truly think if was at Belmont, Secretariat definitaley would had won. Sec had the endurance. You basically don't break 3 track records (Preakness time clock controversy) and not be the greatest. Which the Derby and the Belmont still to this day records and one the belmont many say will never be broken.
An absolute dream race! The only thing I think the 2 horses with the biggest fire in their hearts would've made it a match race. Man o' War & Secretariat would've ran away with it just out of pure spirit and will.
Man o' War would've still won by a much larger margin if all were equal, wearing the same type shoes, carrying the same weight, etc. etc.
Compare how their times were with the times of the year they raced. Because MOW had to work through so many more little things that add up compared to Sec.
Ruffian would not have given more than than a nose to Secretariat?? Cmon now! Youre being a little to liberal.Ruffian was a great filly no doubt..Secretariat would beaten her by no less than 5 lengths.The horse was a phenom.
Secretariat by a length over Man O War and then Seattle Slew.The rest of the field you can set however you want.
i dont really agree with you, sure that secretariat was a phenom but wasnt Ruffian too??? dont forget that Ruffian broke all track records without even being pushed!
if she was pushed against secretariat it would be a hell of a race and dont you forget that secretariat's trainer said "that she might be even better than secretariat"
ruffian should in that race! she would beat them all execpt for secretariat she would lost to him but i dont think that she would give more than a nose to him! and there's no way that man o'war would beat secretariat. i think if they both raced togheder secretariat would do something like belmomt stakes and leave man o'war eating his dust!
Ah, so sad...Ruffian didn't make it in, even though Blood Horse Magazine rated her above Genuine Risk. This would be an insane race. Absolutely insane.
then Ma O' War first,then sec,then citation,slew,war add, mr.longtail,affiermaed,alydar,(love him),bid,then risk,she was a good horse just a hard field
first i have to say this: xmi11 your coments are getting old,and are pointless you thin what you like,but let others have an open mind. you are not 100 percent right,you are taking Ma O' War for granted,he was much better than you say he was,im not really a fan of secretariat but i think he definatly would have come in 2nd place by far.
As for Man O' War, as has been shown the times in the 20's were not that much slower than the 70's, which leaves me with the conclusion that since his times were much slower than Secretariat's and most of the other horses in this field that he probably would have finished near the rear of this field.
bull shit Man O' War was the best in his time he defeated every horse that even dared to face him and has won a race by 100 lengths and if his time was slower than the 70's (which i do not beleve) than he was a modern horse racer born in the 20's there has never been another Man O' War and there probably never will
It's a fact that Man O' War's best times were way slower than Secretariat's at the same distances so sorry War may have been the best of his time but I stand by my conclusion that he would not have been a serious challenger in this field.
well in the 20's da horses were alot stronger and less likely to break down and they didnt have starting gates which ment slower starts + if they were slower than secs because they didnt push him they only used the whip on him in one race and he wasnt pushed to his full potentiol. and if he wasnt a serious competitor y did his his records stand till years after his deth he was alo an amazing looking horse u should look him up cuz ur not givin him enough credit
Why don't you believe the Secretariat beat MOW's times? He clearly did.
But I think people shouldn't even consider time.
70's racing was much faster than the 20's. Easily. No argument there. But how different? No one can know. There are zillions of factors. Gates, jockey positions, ridding styles, surface, shoes, etc. Too much.
If there is one horse who I don't think belongs in this field it's Genuine Risk, as good as she was she was no Ruffian much less Dr.Fager or of Native Dancer who should both definitely should have been put in.
Commenting on an earlier comment as to why Alydar was in this field, how about that if you throw out their last race in which Affirmed interfered and cost Alydar a few lengths the combined margin of victory for Affirmed over approximately 9 miles was less than 2 lengths? Also if Affirmed hadn't been around Alyday would have won 18 out of 20 races thru his 3 year old season including the Triple Crown.
And there would've been many more victories thru his 4 year old season if he hadn't suffered the serious injury to his leg of which I heard it said at the time horses are never the same after it, the reason why he only won 2 of 6 as a 4 year old.
Slew would have pissed on this field...his heart was bigger figuratively, if not physically...cant compare Man o War with these, may as well go back to Eclipse in 18th century England who would win by 60 lengths routinely...or Phar Lap in 1930s Australia who would carry 150lbs and win without breaking a sweat
MOW-wins, by far the best, carrying 130+ lbs at 2; i just love his pic "he looks so different from the rest, very legged,"his head" carried so high....anyways i say waht a field...
Wow- the dirt would account for 4 4/5 seconds (in favor of Secretariat) at a mile 1/2? I can see some difference- but that is almost 25 (estmated) lengths- using the 1/5 of a second = 1 length theory- that is a huge difference- are you sure the tracks were that much slower in the 20s?
I did a little research online- took about 3 minutes- found secretariat and Man o' War's best times at a mile 1/2 (unless the 2:28 4/5 listed for MOW is incorrect), and did a little basic math. I also looked back at some track times (various tracks) from the 20s and 70s- while most are slightly slower in the 20s- most were not that much slower unless it was a fast v. sloppy track.
Loved the video- very creative! Obviously we will never see a race between the great MOW or Secretariat to find out who was better. The only way to even guess is by compareing their best times at the same distances- this would make Secretariat a hands down winner- but we will never know for sure.
Actually no, not at all. Do you know how much different the surfaces were in 1920 to 1973? Very. Also MOW had less time between races. I know all horses in the 20's had less time, but if you're going to be judging a 70's horse to a 20's horse based on times, the 70's horse will almost always win.
Your correct, I really don't know how much different the track conditions were in the 1920s- what made them so much slower than track conditions in the 1970s- I like to learn anything I can about horse racing and all the great horses.
in the 20's, tracks were just plain dirt, sometimes even sand. In the 70's, they weren't dirt that you would find anywhere. It was engineered sand, if that makes any sense, made for speed.
Both Slew & Sec broke slow yet somehow they managed to move up to 1st and 3rd against this field before they even passed the twin spires for the 1st time. That within itself would be an amazin feat. Both would have had to run the 1st 1/4 in 21 and change in order to grab the lead that quickly after breakin so poorly while the rest of the field ran the 1st 1/4 in 22 and change....
...continued...I doubt even Sec & Slew could have been that close at the wire against this group after their riders foolishly rushed them up after such a bad break.
Ok, maybe barbaro shouldnt be in there, but count fleet had such a poor record as a 2 year old, and he didnt race when he was 4, which is the year when a horse is the best
Secretariart did race at age 4. In fact he even raced on the turf a couple of times, breaking a track record at Arlington Park believe in his 1st shot on the grass. Thought Alydar raced as a 4 year old as well.
also i have seen lists without count fleet on them. these were pretty old so john henry was not dead, and he was on it. barbaro also was not yet to race
well ur bet is wrong, john henry was a great horse. also if everyone is calling him the greatest than shouldnt he be entitled to be one of the greatest. plus barbaros win was great but not impressive, it was expected of him. giacomo was a long shot in a race where the race was asking for a long shot to win, there must have been 10 long shots.
o please giacomo had his stuff one day, he was 49-1. he was really not a good horse. barbaro was a great horse from his previous races to the derby. ur right i no little about count fleet, but i do no a lot about sec, ruffian, spectacular bid, citation, john henry, slew, affirmed, man o war, alydar, and barbaro. u no y? cause i always he their names cause they are great horses, never hear about count fleet
well in the florida derby barbaro broke from the 10th position.gulfstream park is one of the toughest tracks to win on when a horse breaks from a wide position, say 10. he is the only horse to win from 10th position or wider at 1 1/8 mile at gulfstream park. u could call that impressive.
Only horse ever? No way. Maybe with the Florida Derby, not not ever. Yes, it is impressive, but so was Giacomo's Derby win, but no one calls him the greatest ever.
You have yet to say anything on Count Fleet. Makes me think you know little, or even nothing, on him
I did hear that Barbaro was the only one to win at 1 1/8 miles at Gulfstream from that far out because its a difficult distance there. I absolutely love Barbaro, but its too hard to compare him to the greats because his career was so short.
I'm 100% sure I learned typing skills also. A matter of fact I go to one of the top 100 high schools in the counrty. I am just to lazy to type perfectly on youtube. Also, Barbaro always won his races by many lengths, once the horses came down the stretch he always opened up the lead.
im sorry that im not a nerd and type perfectly like u, and if u noticed count fleet isnt even in this simulated race. if u watched barbaros other races he always did the same thing
IF u knew wat u were talking about u would see that barbaro had all the traits to become a champion. He closed like a champion and when the horses were on the stretch they would not beat him. Because citation closed so late i dont think he would have beat speed horses like secretariat, and ruffian
Top Horses in Order 1. Secretariat 2. Man o war 3. Seattle Slew 4. Ruffian 5. Spectacular Bid 6. Citation 7. Affirmed 8. Alydar 9. Barbaro 10. John Henry
What if...horses have such a drive and spirit that they come back? Not hard to see Man O'War as Secretariat, Exterminator as John Henry (we all know he'll come back, just hope he gets the chance to run)I see the spirit and drive of the old timers in current horses, pity they can't fulfill their potential.
That was GREAT! I think we should have had Seabiscuit in there since he liked to catch them at the end anyway and it would make for a great "family" race :)
I think it is quite hard to compare generations...However, my opinion is the top 3 horses would have truly ran that way. Seattle Slew was a tremendous horse and would have been able to run with these other champions. (Greatest race run by a horse outside of Secretariat's Belmont is Seattle Slew's 1978 Jockey Club Gold Cup). Take a look at it....It is simply amazing that he almost came back again and won it running against a rabbit and Affirmed, who he destroyed twice.
MrRicknagy 1 month ago
MOW and then Sec; two miracles; separated by enough time and technology that a "real" comparison isn't really possible. A good thing. In the end, does it really matter which is the greater champion? Without doubt together they are the greatest, they reside on Mt Olympus. I believe God sent a message to us in 1920 that was forgotten, so He sent a 2nd message to reinforce the notion of perfection and how rare it is that we must pause to fully appreciate what we have witnessed. An honor it is.
80cathryn 3 months ago
Ok, I know they are all great horses, but I gotta defend my personal favorite, Spectacular Bid.. he had a lot of heart and good endurance.. I think he would have been able to run closer with the big boys in this one.
:)
dravenousone 7 months ago
Cmf4321 is a freaken retard times aren't everything. What your telling me is that a horse could run a mile and 1 4th under 138 pounds and lose by 2 seconds to a horse under 118 pounds so the horse under 118 is better even though it carried 20 pounds less. Freaken RETARDS
JVLigon 8 months ago
You can't tell me that Secretariat beat Man O War by 2 seconds. That's just because Secretariat had it easy if Man O War had the same factors he would have easily crushed secretariat. Man O War is hands down the best race horse ever. All you want to talk about is track time not the fact that Man O War only was behind 2 seconds yet carried 20 or 30 pounds more than Secretiat.
JVLigon 8 months ago
Man o war would of won. Secretariat got better times because he had lighter hooves, better track conditions, less weight to carry, and man o war only lost one race in which he was turned around at the start and started way behind. He got stuck inbetween horses when his jockey put him in a bad position and he only lost by a length. Secretariat lost many races in which none of them he had a reason to. This is why Man O War would win.
JVLigon 8 months ago
Secretariat wouldve won hands down. i did researched on racehorses and by everything Sec woulda won.
SecretariatFanForeva 11 months ago
The final 'Quote' from Eddie Arcaro came after he seen Secretariat. His 1996 interview with Los angeles times writer Bill Christine Arcaro said Citation was the best 3 year old I ever rode And Kelso was the best 4 year old I ever rode But I rate Secretariat the "BEST' I have ever seen. It came from the article titled Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81. Its on page 2 of that article. Anyone can go there And read it. He also told Ron Turcotte Secretariat was the 'Best'.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Well considering that Secretariat holds the fastest Kentucky Derby record & was the first to break the 2 minute record...it doesn't take a genius to figure out who would win this race. He STILL holds the record & is the ONLY race horse in HISTORY that won the Kentucky Derby by INCREASING his speed over each quarter mile to break the record. NO horse has ever equaled that feat. Never will again. Sec was genetically the miracle of nature man can never duplicate. The 1973 Belmont is beyond us all.
cmf4321 1 year ago
Man O'War would win hehe. but Secretariat would be right there (:
BackstretchUnderdog 1 year ago
What a Joke. MOW & Slew never ran a 1 1/4 mile under 2 minutes. It s like living in a land of OZ. The Bid world record in 1:57 4/5 & Secretariat was clocked in the same time 'pulling up' in the Marlboro Cup. These are the two that would have been up front by lengths.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
I guess it doesn't matter that Man O' War didn't actually race in the Derby, eh?
And as spectacular as the Bid's statistics were, who did he beat besides the game Flying Paster? Revisionist history is always worth a chuckle, ain't it?
tizfrreecharm 1 year ago
This is good.
I totally agree that Man O'War, Secretariat and Seattle Slew are the 3 best in history.
I just watched video of Seattle Slew again. AMAZING what he did at beginning of the Kentucky Derby. He coasted at the end of the Preakness. And he won easy against Affirmed.
Those 3 WOULD battle at the end. AWESOME!
Karoke77 1 year ago
I'm kinda surprised that they didn't use the first 10 horses of Blood Horses' top 100 racers of the 20th century for the feild... or was this done before the list came out?
RareHonesty 2 years ago
Of course Man O War wins.
What were they thinking anyways? Didn't they know he'd just beat them all?
No shit please about my comment: its the way I feel :)
Pari28 2 years ago 2
Ditto : )
RareHonesty 2 years ago
Love the clip fantastic!!,Eddie Arcaro,the jockey of Citation,when they asked Eddie who was the greatest Secretariat or Man O War,Eddie replied neither,Phar Lap was the greatest
manikato75 2 years ago
@manikato75 Eddie Arcaro thinks that Citation was teh greatest.
But you did quote someone, but I forgot who it was
carlykaiser 2 years ago
@carly
Before Equipoise began his comeback as a four-year-old
there appeared in the West
an enormous gelding considered by many experts
--including jockey Eddie Arcaro, New York State Steward Francis Dunne and Marshall Cassidy, who succeeded his father as dean of American racing officials--
as the greatest thoroughbred ever to race on the American continent. What is more striking, the horse concerned gained his lofty stature in exactly 2 minutes 2 4/5 seconds. Phar Lap. Quote
manikato75 2 years ago
As a four-year-old Phar Lap won fourteen consecutive stakes,
including the Melbourne Cup under 138 pounds. In the century-plus history of Australia's greatest race, only three times has it been won under higher weight. At five the big gelding was eight for nine, his sole loss having been in the Cup, in which he carried 150 pounds and the winner 98.
manikato75 2 years ago
@manikato75 Eddie Arcaro thought that Citation was the best ever, not Phar Lap.
carlykaiser 2 years ago
the last 2 comments i posted are quotes
manikato75 2 years ago
@manikato75 from where?
carlykaiser 2 years ago
@carly From the just released book Phar Lap the untold story,sounds like u know your stuff,im sure u will have more info
manikato75 2 years ago
@manikato75 it is a true quote, the "neither I saw Phar Lap" one, but it was NOT Arcaro. That I am 100% sure of
carlykaiser 2 years ago
@manikato75 it was francis dunne who quoted that but eddie arcaro also said that pharlap was the best he saw
LIGHTNINGB0BBY 1 year ago
@LIGHTNINGB0BBY ,cool thanks,Frank Dunne saw MOW,SEC and Phar Lap,and thought Phar Lap was the greatest,I thought Eddie said it too,Eddie raced against Phar Lap,
manikato75 1 year ago
@carlykaiser Very true.
BackstretchUnderdog 1 year ago
This was a cool idea..never heard it before. Its all speculative really but I had to chuckle about the finish. There is no way on God's green earth would mow be anywhere close to Sec. And why isnt Sham in there? I have no doubt he'd crush many triple crown winners. Fun to listen to though. I'd put Seattle S. up there with Sham in my opinion. Sec..Seattle S..and Sham. The bottom line is that on each horse's best day..or close to it..nobody would touch Sec. Not even close. Maybe within 2 lengths.
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
Not even close?
Please. Secretariat had too many "bad days" not to worry about that when comparing to other horses' best days.
Sec might be close, as long as he didn't hurt his lip and was wearing his rogue's badge, but MOW had smoking figures back then, and things have changed. MOW wearing his steel shoes and bowed tendons on today's track could still beat Sec in lightweight Al most of the time.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
Ok. Well 4get Sec weighed more,set a track record for each race of the trip crown, 2 still standing and 1 world rec. Horse of the year as a 2 & 3 year old. Ran neg. splits in the derby, unheard of. Had one of the highest beyer speed records ever assigned. Espn among others consider him the greatest ever. Set a seperate world record. Ran against better competition, esp. Sham, and more older horses and beat them. Avg 37.5 mph in belmont race. Mow's "smoking figures" cant touch Sec. and never will.
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
MOW set a total of 10 time records - 8 in his 3yo season of 11 starts. 2yo were just stakes records. 3yo from 1 mi up to 1-5/8 mi (unsurpassed by Sec on turf, eve). 1 equaled TR, 2 NTR, 2 NAR, 3 NWR. All of them absolute (not dirt only). He destroyed several records in the process, as opposed to shaving them - and proved it with consistently scary margins. His figures had to be big - all the time.
Tracks, shoes, starts; just about everything was different and to MOW's disadvantage.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
The poll of ESPN RACING people chose MOW over Sec. You're thinking of the overall much-more public general list of "athletes" wherein Sec got the nod at 35 because those people saw him run. And of course there is the Blood-Horse list.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
As for opposition - tell me how much you know about MOW's opposition, many of whom beat Exterminator and Sir Barton as well as were beaten, and many who set records of their own. Its possible they werent as good overall as Secs, but they were not mules. I will grant you he hardly faced anyone because they were scared off (and couldnt pick up beyond 4th money then). But those MOW beat he met many times (Upset 7x), unlike modern races where they meet once as a rule.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
Mow beat horses in an era that had little quality. U dont suprise me with the excuses of the tracks, his shoes and starts. Thats standard. His winning margins mean nothing when facing crap horses. Mow was great for his time but that has nothing to do with after it. He cant compare to horses that came after him, esp Sec. Competition, times set for specific distances, Sec owned Mow with both of those. Both, often were not ridden 100% I give you that. But this isnt really an arguement..
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
Few argue that Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player ever, yet he started in the same era as MOW. Being of a different age didn't make him lesser than greats of today. Age doesn't matter. You need to normalize for the era (baseball is much different, yet Babe is still #1 for most). Jordan is fantastic, too, despite being "new".
MOW's margins meant alot because they were coupled with fantastic time-crushers - they were high figures. If they weren't, you'd be correct, except for "**".
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
And just ask Hatton or any other individual who saw both Mow and Sec, the list is longer for those that claim Sec was far better than those who thought otherwise. Just because Wilt scored 100 points in his day and set his records, doesnt mean people think hes the best over Jordan, who set his own records in a diff era with better competition and orginality. Jordan is the best exactly as Sec. is the best when compared. Mow and Wilt were the best of their daybut most people dont claim them as best
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
Can you produce this list of people who "saw both", much less their choices? I've seen some listed who thought Phar Lap was better than both of them, seeing them all (never mind other horses such as Citation). Proves nothing.
I guess my comments about Babe went over your head. Jordan is the best ("new"), Babe is the best ("old"); I agree with your ESPN overall list on those. Some of us are more objective than others and don't simply dismiss old-timers because "newer is always better".
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
Then why does Secretariat hold all of the records for speed...and not MOW? Same race...different era. The difference...36 years the fastest speeds in HISTORY..and all horses are chasing Secretariat's records...not MOW's...he doesn't hold any:-( MOW was great for his generation...but, by far, the 1970's had much superior race horses. And Secretariat outraced them all...My cat agrees...he keeps banging my elbow while I'm trying to type this...LOL
cmf4321 2 years ago
Why? Why did MOW hold some records for 50 years? Riddle me that? Why did Secretariat fail to surpass MOW's longest distance despite advantages?
MOW raced 50 years prior, and things had changed (but NOT the horse overall; they were pretty well gelled by then).
It's not shocking that records are broken as time passes. Sec's have been passed, but no-one says "'Sec Beater' is greater than Sec". That's the simplistic approach.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
If I had the time and actually cared enough to reply to your request for a list I would but I dont. I refer back to my last post. That says it all as Sec. did it all. Almost everyone seems to know this but you. Modern horse trainers are always on the look out for the next Sec..not MOW. If you dont think Jordan was a better athlete than Babe you are more our of your mind than I think you are. Same with Sec. vs MOW. Sec. did more..he was an original. He did things not matched even up to today.
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
Sure, because Sec was "recent" and in THEIR memory, and he's a stratospheric great.
The fact is people STILL talk of MOW (including the "experts" and people in the industry) and it's still 50/50 on who is greatest, despite the horse being 50 years older.
(If he's original, why did he steal MOW's moniker?)
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
You totally misunderstand my ESPN statements, the main point being it's OK for new or old to be tops. I said Jordan was TOP BASKETBALL, and Ruth was TOP BASEBALL; ignoring overall athletic ranking (Jim Thorpe should be #1 for handling it all so well, but I'm sure you dismiss the old codger).
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
And I think you missed my point..but if you want MOW to be best in HIS era..fine have it. But that is a boring conversation. Sec is the best ever hands down. I'd say Bo Jackon or Deion Sanders or any # of athletes would make Thorpe look silly. But see you got yourself stuck in comparing eras..as that is the only way MOW fans can argue his greatness. We went from Babe ruth to Thorpe lol. U R missing the point entirely. Sec. is the greatest ever..old or new. This really isnt an argument.
Sportsguy574 2 years ago
where are the rest of the triple crown winners u gotta have em in there there are spossed to be up to twenty horses
runwildnfree 2 years ago
Where did you get the number 20?
carlykaiser 2 years ago
in the actual derby they run 20 horses you have ten just saying
runwildnfree 2 years ago
This is not supposed to be the Kentucky Derby, this is just supposed to be a Derby. The Dream Derby.
If it was to be the Kentucky Derby, I bet they would have called it the Dream Kentucky Derby.
And this is not really mine, the audio is from a separate site, I just put photos to it
carlykaiser 2 years ago
Incidentally, they don't just "run 20 horses" in the KY Derby. They ALLOW 20 horses maximum. Many times we've had only 17 or 18 etc.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
secretariats times were always run at his full speed.
man o' war was so fast he was held in every race he ran.
tracks are also faster now, so there is no question that man o' war was the only horse in history to set records when he was being slowed in the homestrecth, and is
the fastest horse to ever run.
195419771983 2 years ago
you got it backwards sec was never allowed full out mow was 15 lengths behind sec in the belmont at the old finish sec is deff the better horse w/ mow 2nd then ruffian
runwildnfree 2 years ago
MOW ran 50 years prior to Sec - huge differences, and not "the breed was better". Tracks were slower being less refined (even Citation's were shown to be faster than MOW's day), MOW had to carry steel shoes rather than lightweight Al, and started from the unfair "barrier" (which he broke through several times or was held up by a starter). Yet he won, setting 10 total records, despite problems on the track, huge concessions, and NEVER wearing special equipment a`la Sec.
theOlLineRebel 2 years ago
This is a great job. I think all of these horses are great and on any given day, they would have beaten each other. Excellent job.
vizacleaners 2 years ago
I have to agree with cmf...Man O' War was indeed great, as were all of the horses named here, but on their respective best days, I'll take Secretariat over all of them. Remember, this was a machine, he didn't just win, he humiliated the field.
MelC54 2 years ago 2
Interesting video but wrong outcome. Secretariat would have outraced MOW. All research shows that MOW's times never matched Secretariats in speed...the closest his times came were at least 6 lengths slower than Secretariat. Most were between 10-20 lengths behind. MOW always like to take the lead. Secretariat is the only horse in history that was recorded to INCREASE his speed. That's why Secretariat, not MOW, still holds the track records. MOW was exceptional. Secretariat was supernatural.
cmf4321 2 years ago 2
Sec lost 5 times from 21 races,spectacular lost 4 from 30 races,and undefeated as a 4 years old??
Ps times arent everything
manikato75 2 years ago
If times aren't everything...then why the clock...I thought this was racing. Some horses seem greater because they had the luck of racing in an era where no horses set track records. The only way to compare horses is their TIMES. They all RUN the same race. By setting ALL 3 track records in the TC, Secretariat is still the FASTEST. Sec's speed hasn't been broken in 36 years! Turco didn't even use his whip! Sham had the misfortune of running against the greatest. He also broke a record w/ Sec.
cmf4321 2 years ago
@cmf4321,example,Kingston Rule(son of secretariat) won the 1990 Melbourne Cup(world richest 2mile race) with the fastest time ever and he was average horse dose that make he the best melb.cup winner no-way,and can u compare race times from a heavy track to a good track no!,so there r many other factors,Sec was a champ,Spectacular Bid best American horse of all time
manikato75 2 years ago
Bid had the fortunate of NOT running against Secretariat. TIMES DON'T LIE. This is racing. The TC was only won by 11horses & Sec. STILL holds the track records for all 3. He also broke other American & world records. Secretariat & Man O' War rate as the 2 greatest race horses in the U.S. The only difference..Sec. was faster. Holding records for 37 years & counting. No horse will ever duplicate Secretariat's speed. Bid certainly didn't. His times r 2 slow. Sham was even faster than Bid.
cmf4321 2 years ago
THE BID broke seven track records. He broke a track record in a route race as a two year old which is unheard of.THE BID also is in distinct company going undefeated in the much more difficult handicap division for older horses. Three other horses have accomplished what BID did. Man O War(1920), Tom Fool (1953), Cigar (1995). Not to diminish what eleven other horses did in the TC. But to go undefeated in the handicap division is something the general racing public should take notice.
jkmooreelle 1 year ago
BTW, if you do your research, you'll see that Secretariat broke more than 3 records in the TC! He broke several others. American & world records. It wasn't luck. His speed & intelligence made him superior in every way. Still the most perfect horse genetically & physically to ever race. The more you read about him, the more you'll understand why even scientists don't feel another Secretariat will ever come along. And BTW, he is still the most watched horse on youtube...36 years after retiring.
cmf4321 2 years ago
who cares about stupid times,so in formula one racing if u have the quickest time does that make u the best no! again!!your point about times is flawed,
And if u want to learn about the most perfect horse genetically and physically,read about PHAR LAP"THE RED TERROR"from Australia the greatest horse the world has ever seen,what he achieved will never be repeated,ps i have read about Sec and he is a champion, but times arent everything my friend
manikato75 2 years ago
It's called RACING. If any athlete races in an era where NO athlete is setting any records...and wins all of his races...WHO cares? Certainly not the history books. Being faster than inferior athletes doens't make a legend. If everyone is running the same race...only TIMES differentiate them. Remember Roger Bannister? Mark Spitz...and Michael Phelps. Oh I forgot...times DON'T matter...(smile)
cmf4321 2 years ago
@cmf4321,u Americans are dumber than i thought,racing is about tracks,rivals,number of wins,racing conditions,gates,weather,so times are just a tiny factor,Carl Lewis is regarded as one of the greatest athletes how many time records does he hold????none,horse racing is about racing not just times,yr really trying to push this time factor,when there are so many more factors,Citation was better than Sec and MOW
manikato75 2 years ago
True, times are not every thing. Many horses in training can blast the clock but never achieve anything when it comes to real races. I must admit I root for Man O' War but I think if any horse could have lock horns with MOW it would be Phar Lap. Phar Lap should be commended for the things he had to overcome to become great. I would be interested in seeing Sec. try to run MOW & Phar Lap's race schedule & weight on nothing but water and oats like they did. But Americans are not dumb k...
RareHonesty 2 years ago
@rarehonesty,great reply i think yr the only one with a decent response that makes sense,Sec was great,as was MOW,i think what what Phar Lap acheived is sumthing we will never see again,freaky,Spectacular Bid very underrated,I know Americans aren't dumb,but when u read dumb comments by cmf4321,u have to question it
manikato75 2 years ago
Don't let cmf4321 get to you & its no use corresponding with him ether. He will eventually get tired of you finding the flaws in his logic, he'll call you stupid & ignore you. And don't asked him to cite sources cause he wont give them to you...
Not sure about Citation being the best but Arcaro spoke highly of him and that's something. Having the best say you where their best.
*hope that last bit makes sense.
RareHonesty 2 years ago
@RareHonesty How many views are on this youtube? Approx. 9,359 today. Now look at every race horse on youtube, add up how many people have viewed them, and that tells you what horses are of the most interest to people. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Ask Susan Boyles...lol
cmf4321 1 year ago
@manikato75 The only dumb comments I see on here are from you.
BackstretchUnderdog 1 year ago
@BackstretchUnderdog ,thats only cause the comments are true,did u read what lightingbobby said,same quote !!!
manikato75 1 year ago
"he is still the most watched horse on YouTube"
*Where did you get this statistic from?
RareHonesty 2 years ago
From the numbers. Add them up yourself. Those numbers will go even higher...especially after the younger generation sees the Disney movie scheduled in October of this year. When you look up all of your favorite horses...look up how many views and posts they have. Numbers don't lie..Secretariat deserves to be the most viewed..what he did in one year at only the age of 3...has never been done NOR duplicated in terms of speed. His TC wins will never be matched again. Especially not by 1 horse.
cmf4321 2 years ago
So you have no REAL evidence to back up the things you say, that makes me what to believe you even more. : /
P.S. All of Sec. speed records have been match or exceeded including the mile & a half time (by a second and change if I'm not mistaken) they where just not accomplished in the same race or the same track. And Disney is not the most informative of production companies (I dont trust movies in general) they will be in love with a fantasy not the real thing.
RareHonesty 2 years ago
rarehonesty...how old are you? Your comments make no sense, and if I'm arguing with a child..I'll decline graciously. If you're an adult, that's scary. Your comments have no common sense nor an education. Please forgive me if you're a child. And you are mistaken regarding your "facts". So I'll decline any further comment regardless of yours. I don't think I've ever been so speechless reading a response:-( Never seen anything so "out there". Sorry.
cmf4321 2 years ago
Well if you would kindly ask me about the parts you don't understand instead of insulting me I would be happy to clarify, because you're the one sounding childish right now sir. Its hard for me to fit all the things I want to say in such a limited space. I just have to hope that people can read between the lines & I dont like posting too many replies on 1 comment because I find it obnoxious, but I will if I need to. Im not afraid to admit that I dont know everything, no one does.
RareHonesty 2 years ago
I do want to correct one thing right off the bat I meant surface not track, I just couldn't think of the right word at the time.
*I dont give my personal information to random people, especially if they are on the internet. Ive seen too many people in that boat. Sorry
RareHonesty 2 years ago
MAN O' WAR!!~
sczen 3 years ago
TOM FOOL EITHER~??
sczen 3 years ago
SECRATAIAT
giants611 3 years ago
WAR ADMIRAL SHOULD BLOW BY WHIRLAWAY
giants611 3 years ago
everthing is accurate ecept war admiral that far back
giants611 3 years ago
I Think PharLap belong to it!! He died in the U.S.A! A little more respect!!!! ;-))))
Djaikha 3 years ago
Was soll ich sagen, ich finde, PharLap gehört dazu!! Er war einzigartig!!!!
Djaikha 3 years ago
hey gang!! they forgot tom fool--the dancer--and above all--what about...KING KELLY? BETTER KNOWN AS--KELSO!! 5 YEARS IN A ROW--HORSE OF THE YEAR!! COULD RUN AT ANY DISATNCE UNDER ANY WEIGHTS--AND WIN!! 'COURSE THEN AGAIN--LIKE WHIRLAWAY--HOW MANY HORSE CAN STAY IN THE MONEY-46 RACES IN A ROW!! AND BE A ONE-RUN PONY??? INTERESTING,HUH???
sczen 3 years ago
The debate will go on forever, could Tyson have beaten Marciano,Ali,Frazier or Foreman? We'll never know, but in this field, I'll take Secretariat.
MelC54 3 years ago
Where is Phar Lap??????
Djaikha 3 years ago
In Australia.
Felldohfansquirrel 3 years ago
There is one horse missing that could have pulled the upset over MOW and Secretariat. COUNT FLEET!!!!
Rodney81818 3 years ago
Love the race but one question why was Genuine Risk in there instead of Ruffian. Wouldn't that make more since
Rodney81818 3 years ago
Man O' War definately deserved that win, but why did the Admiral place so far behind? He should have been higher.
rannyray 3 years ago
this is great thanks scen for share
thyzira 3 years ago
Sec was very good in sloppy conditions. He'd still get the job done. Shoes don't matter. Weight MAYBE makes Secretariat win by a few less lengths (doubt it). Look at the Derby times and you can see Sect beats MOW by about 14 lengths. Sec did 49 mph in the Derby home stretch. Maybe MOW never went as fast as he could have, but neither did Sec. MOW was great, but just couldn't make up the deficits, even on a 70's track. If today's tracks are even better, why does Sec still hold the records he does?
heraclid13 3 years ago 4
I dont think Man o'War ran in the Derby so its very hard to compare Derby splits with Secretariat???
Briano696969 3 years ago
True, he didn't run in the Derby, but he did run the distance. So you can compare both horses' times at that distance.
heraclid13 3 years ago
@heraclid13 It a total myth my good man that the tracks were much slower when MOW ran. Its another excuse for all the MOW & Citation lovers. Thats it plain & simple. Just look no further than the M.C. on a 'wet fast' track where Secretariat was clocked in 1:57 4/5 galloping out another furlong If it was a 1 1 /4 mile race the time would have been less than the 1:57 4/5 & he took the long way around the track in doing that. How about that. I can see a 1:57 flat.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Eyes and knowledge are more superior than guessing and IFs. Both Hughs and Hatton gave their 2 cents worth on the matter since they saw both MOW and Secretariat, so i have to go with them as well. I am sure they heard the arguments as well about weight,shoes conditions, foals and all the thises and thats. I take their opinions to heart, they saw, we only guess and make the IFs. Secretariat the horse of them all..
majesticbob2007 3 years ago
I lived during Secretarait, and have to say he would had won The Dream Derby. I have to also go by opinions of Hall of Fame Horse Trainer Hollie Hughs and race horse broadcaster Charles Hatton who both saw MOW as well as Secretariat and both said Secretariat was the horse. Secretariat winner of The Dream Derby.
majesticbob2007 3 years ago 2
Besides Sham who raced against Secretariat in the 73 Derby might had beaten most of them too. Sham held the second best derby record for years. Sham broke the Derby record as well in 73.
majesticbob2007 3 years ago
I feel Secretariat would had one. We can go by this and that but since never saw MOW, I have to go by the ones who saw them both and many say Secretariat was the horse. I truly think if was at Belmont, Secretariat definitaley would had won. Sec had the endurance. You basically don't break 3 track records (Preakness time clock controversy) and not be the greatest. Which the Derby and the Belmont still to this day records and one the belmont many say will never be broken.
majesticbob2007 3 years ago 3
are you an idiot?man of war?and why the hell was spectactular bid in the race?ever hear of pharlap.you're an idiot.
rib76 3 years ago
You do know after a punctuation you put spaces, right?
Did you read the first few words in the description?
"Something USA Today did a while ago, that I fou..."
That's all that shows, but still explains this.
Who's the idiot now?
carlykaiser 3 years ago
Great job, I enjoyed it thoroughly. The call-and finish-sounded quite plausible, and I agree with the finish.
all66books 3 years ago
An absolute dream race! The only thing I think the 2 horses with the biggest fire in their hearts would've made it a match race. Man o' War & Secretariat would've ran away with it just out of pure spirit and will.
Man o' War would've still won by a much larger margin if all were equal, wearing the same type shoes, carrying the same weight, etc. etc.
Sherlock1217 3 years ago
sec would have crushed mow, go look up there fastest times. facts are more important than opinions.
ittelotrab 3 years ago
Fact is time means nothing when comparing horses.
Compare how their times were with the times of the year they raced. Because MOW had to work through so many more little things that add up compared to Sec.
carlykaiser 3 years ago
Props to carlykaiser for posting this.I got a vivid picture of this race. Im having a painting done of it with a little differnt ending.
JerseyRenegade 3 years ago
I'd like to see that when your done! =)
carlykaiser 3 years ago
whats ur ending gonna b
let me guess sec wins over mow
...i highly doubt that will ever happen tho
shahrzad1893 3 years ago
Ruffian would not have given more than than a nose to Secretariat?? Cmon now! Youre being a little to liberal.Ruffian was a great filly no doubt..Secretariat would beaten her by no less than 5 lengths.The horse was a phenom.
Secretariat by a length over Man O War and then Seattle Slew.The rest of the field you can set however you want.
JerseyRenegade 3 years ago
i dont really agree with you, sure that secretariat was a phenom but wasnt Ruffian too??? dont forget that Ruffian broke all track records without even being pushed!
if she was pushed against secretariat it would be a hell of a race and dont you forget that secretariat's trainer said "that she might be even better than secretariat"
vznspike101 3 years ago 2
ruffian should in that race! she would beat them all execpt for secretariat she would lost to him but i dont think that she would give more than a nose to him! and there's no way that man o'war would beat secretariat. i think if they both raced togheder secretariat would do something like belmomt stakes and leave man o'war eating his dust!
vznspike101 3 years ago
Secretariat by 3 then the bid 2nd and slew in a photo with alydar for 3rd.just my opinion.
tnhorseman 3 years ago
Seattle Slew, Man O' War, and Secretariat charging three-wide down the stretch. THAT would be a sight to see.
therock401 3 years ago 2
whoo! I agree with ridingxruffian. It would be something.
ashado19 3 years ago
ridingxruffian 3 years ago
Ah, so sad...Ruffian didn't make it in, even though Blood Horse Magazine rated her above Genuine Risk. This would be an insane race. Absolutely insane.
ridingxruffian 3 years ago
then Ma O' War first,then sec,then citation,slew,war add, mr.longtail,affiermaed,alydar,(love him),bid,then risk,she was a good horse just a hard field
horseyaddicted 4 years ago
where the hell did u get mr. longtail
and its spelled affirmed not *affermaed*
that hurt my eyes ;(
shahrzad1893 3 years ago
first i have to say this: xmi11 your coments are getting old,and are pointless you thin what you like,but let others have an open mind. you are not 100 percent right,you are taking Ma O' War for granted,he was much better than you say he was,im not really a fan of secretariat but i think he definatly would have come in 2nd place by far.
horseyaddicted 4 years ago
As for Man O' War, as has been shown the times in the 20's were not that much slower than the 70's, which leaves me with the conclusion that since his times were much slower than Secretariat's and most of the other horses in this field that he probably would have finished near the rear of this field.
xmi11 4 years ago
bull shit Man O' War was the best in his time he defeated every horse that even dared to face him and has won a race by 100 lengths and if his time was slower than the 70's (which i do not beleve) than he was a modern horse racer born in the 20's there has never been another Man O' War and there probably never will
shahrzad1893 4 years ago
It's a fact that Man O' War's best times were way slower than Secretariat's at the same distances so sorry War may have been the best of his time but I stand by my conclusion that he would not have been a serious challenger in this field.
xmi11 4 years ago
well in the 20's da horses were alot stronger and less likely to break down and they didnt have starting gates which ment slower starts + if they were slower than secs because they didnt push him they only used the whip on him in one race and he wasnt pushed to his full potentiol. and if he wasnt a serious competitor y did his his records stand till years after his deth he was alo an amazing looking horse u should look him up cuz ur not givin him enough credit
shahrzad1893 4 years ago
Why don't you believe the Secretariat beat MOW's times? He clearly did.
But I think people shouldn't even consider time.
70's racing was much faster than the 20's. Easily. No argument there. But how different? No one can know. There are zillions of factors. Gates, jockey positions, ridding styles, surface, shoes, etc. Too much.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
yea i know that sec beat mows time im just trying to bring up the factor that if sec was in mows time or if mow was in secs time mow would beat sec
shahrzad1893 4 years ago
If there is one horse who I don't think belongs in this field it's Genuine Risk, as good as she was she was no Ruffian much less Dr.Fager or of Native Dancer who should both definitely should have been put in.
xmi11 4 years ago
Commenting on an earlier comment as to why Alydar was in this field, how about that if you throw out their last race in which Affirmed interfered and cost Alydar a few lengths the combined margin of victory for Affirmed over approximately 9 miles was less than 2 lengths? Also if Affirmed hadn't been around Alyday would have won 18 out of 20 races thru his 3 year old season including the Triple Crown.
xmi11 4 years ago
And there would've been many more victories thru his 4 year old season if he hadn't suffered the serious injury to his leg of which I heard it said at the time horses are never the same after it, the reason why he only won 2 of 6 as a 4 year old.
xmi11 4 years ago
Excelente.
Andaluzsecretariat 4 years ago
Slew would have pissed on this field...his heart was bigger figuratively, if not physically...cant compare Man o War with these, may as well go back to Eclipse in 18th century England who would win by 60 lengths routinely...or Phar Lap in 1930s Australia who would carry 150lbs and win without breaking a sweat
cgambler864 4 years ago
Are you saying Man O' War doesn't belong in this group?
carlykaiser 4 years ago
where are:
Dr Fager
Native Dancer
Ruffian
MOW-wins, by far the best, carrying 130+ lbs at 2; i just love his pic "he looks so different from the rest, very legged,"his head" carried so high....anyways i say waht a field...
ALYSHEBANDTHEBID 4 years ago
i don't think War Admiral would've gotten that bad in that race. i think he woulda at least have gotten 4 or 5th
barbarolover8 4 years ago
Wow- the dirt would account for 4 4/5 seconds (in favor of Secretariat) at a mile 1/2? I can see some difference- but that is almost 25 (estmated) lengths- using the 1/5 of a second = 1 length theory- that is a huge difference- are you sure the tracks were that much slower in the 20s?
pineyhillhorses 4 years ago
I am almost positive. Though, I don't know how you got that measurement. Well, I do but where did 4 4/5 come from?
carlykaiser 4 years ago
I did a little research online- took about 3 minutes- found secretariat and Man o' War's best times at a mile 1/2 (unless the 2:28 4/5 listed for MOW is incorrect), and did a little basic math. I also looked back at some track times (various tracks) from the 20s and 70s- while most are slightly slower in the 20s- most were not that much slower unless it was a fast v. sloppy track.
pineyhillhorses 4 years ago
Loved the video- very creative! Obviously we will never see a race between the great MOW or Secretariat to find out who was better. The only way to even guess is by compareing their best times at the same distances- this would make Secretariat a hands down winner- but we will never know for sure.
pineyhillhorses 4 years ago
Actually no, not at all. Do you know how much different the surfaces were in 1920 to 1973? Very. Also MOW had less time between races. I know all horses in the 20's had less time, but if you're going to be judging a 70's horse to a 20's horse based on times, the 70's horse will almost always win.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
Your correct, I really don't know how much different the track conditions were in the 1920s- what made them so much slower than track conditions in the 1970s- I like to learn anything I can about horse racing and all the great horses.
pineyhillhorses 4 years ago
in the 20's, tracks were just plain dirt, sometimes even sand. In the 70's, they weren't dirt that you would find anywhere. It was engineered sand, if that makes any sense, made for speed.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
I just knew Man O' War would win....he was the greatest breaking so many records and setting them as well!!!
SammyJailyn123 4 years ago
Well, that goes without saying. When you break a record, you set a new one.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
Excellent job on the video. No one calls a race better than Tom Durkin. This is an art that is being lost.
Cheesehead202 4 years ago
Very nice Carly. I love Tom Durkin and he even made a fake race exciting!
GallantFox1930 4 years ago
Both Slew & Sec broke slow yet somehow they managed to move up to 1st and 3rd against this field before they even passed the twin spires for the 1st time. That within itself would be an amazin feat. Both would have had to run the 1st 1/4 in 21 and change in order to grab the lead that quickly after breakin so poorly while the rest of the field ran the 1st 1/4 in 22 and change....
dahoss65 4 years ago
...continued...I doubt even Sec & Slew could have been that close at the wire against this group after their riders foolishly rushed them up after such a bad break.
dahoss65 4 years ago
I do not want to argue any longer. Lets just leave it at that we both have very strong arugments, and we both have great knowledge for the sport.
brown22shu 4 years ago
We both? Not so much. If you made up Count Fleet's 2 y/o carrer, thats hardily having greawt knowledge.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
Ok, maybe barbaro shouldnt be in there, but count fleet had such a poor record as a 2 year old, and he didnt race when he was 4, which is the year when a horse is the best
brown22shu 4 years ago
So? Barbaro didn't race at 4, neither did Secretariat, Man O' War, Alydar, or Ruffian, yet their on your list.
Such a poor 2 year old year? he was champion 2 year old, and carried 132lbs that year! And he was never out of the money. That's hardly a poor record.
Oh, and you said said you've never seen him on anyone's list... he is ranked #5 all time by the bloodhorse, FYI
carlykaiser 4 years ago
Secretariart did race at age 4. In fact he even raced on the turf a couple of times, breaking a track record at Arlington Park believe in his 1st shot on the grass. Thought Alydar raced as a 4 year old as well.
federicojoe 4 years ago
Actually, Secretariat didn't race at 4. At three he won the MOW, Arlington Intl, and Canadian Intl.
Alydar did race at 4, but was horrible.
carlykaiser 4 years ago
1. mow
2. sec
3. slew
4. spec bid
5. citation
6. ruffian
7. Affirmed
8. Alydar
9. john henry
10. war adimarl
brown22shu 4 years ago
Random. Who's list is that? A real person's or your modified list trying to make me happy?
carlykaiser 4 years ago
also i have seen lists without count fleet on them. these were pretty old so john henry was not dead, and he was on it. barbaro also was not yet to race
brown22shu 4 years ago
I'd like to see some of those lists.
In your first thing in the last hour, I have no idea what you meant in the first sentance. Because I never said John Henry wasn't great.
How can a win be great, but not impressive?
And what defines a "long shot" in your book? How was there only 10 that year? There must've been about 15!
carlykaiser 4 years ago
well ur bet is wrong, john henry was a great horse. also if everyone is calling him the greatest than shouldnt he be entitled to be one of the greatest. plus barbaros win was great but not impressive, it was expected of him. giacomo was a long shot in a race where the race was asking for a long shot to win, there must have been 10 long shots.
brown22shu 4 years ago
o please giacomo had his stuff one day, he was 49-1. he was really not a good horse. barbaro was a great horse from his previous races to the derby. ur right i no little about count fleet, but i do no a lot about sec, ruffian, spectacular bid, citation, john henry, slew, affirmed, man o war, alydar, and barbaro. u no y? cause i always he their names cause they are great horses, never hear about count fleet
brown22shu 4 years ago
I am willing to bet you only put John Henry in there is becaue he recently died, and everyone is calling him one of the greatest.
But trust me, on nearly every pro's top 10 list, is Count Fleet. And NO Barbaro, or John Henry.
Ah, but Giacomo's Derby was impressive! And thats what you're saying about barbaro, is that he is impressive!
carlykaiser 4 years ago
well in the florida derby barbaro broke from the 10th position.gulfstream park is one of the toughest tracks to win on when a horse breaks from a wide position, say 10. he is the only horse to win from 10th position or wider at 1 1/8 mile at gulfstream park. u could call that impressive.
brown22shu 4 years ago
Only horse ever? No way. Maybe with the Florida Derby, not not ever. Yes, it is impressive, but so was Giacomo's Derby win, but no one calls him the greatest ever.
You have yet to say anything on Count Fleet. Makes me think you know little, or even nothing, on him
carlykaiser 4 years ago
I did hear that Barbaro was the only one to win at 1 1/8 miles at Gulfstream from that far out because its a difficult distance there. I absolutely love Barbaro, but its too hard to compare him to the greats because his career was so short.
seggymon 4 years ago
Not ever, other horses have it was just in the FL Derby
carlykaiser 4 years ago
I'm 100% sure I learned typing skills also. A matter of fact I go to one of the top 100 high schools in the counrty. I am just to lazy to type perfectly on youtube. Also, Barbaro always won his races by many lengths, once the horses came down the stretch he always opened up the lead.
brown22shu 4 years ago
God forbid you waste .3 seconds of your life,
I seem to have a race in my mind where he won by a neck, and was fighting in the stretch. Florida Derby, perhaps.
Yay! We're still not talking about Count Fleet!
carlykaiser 4 years ago
im sorry that im not a nerd and type perfectly like u, and if u noticed count fleet isnt even in this simulated race. if u watched barbaros other races he always did the same thing
brown22shu 4 years ago
I may be a nerd, but at least I have basic typing skills thats taught in 1st grade.
Barbaro always did the same this as.... who?
carlykaiser 4 years ago
IF u knew wat u were talking about u would see that barbaro had all the traits to become a champion. He closed like a champion and when the horses were on the stretch they would not beat him. Because citation closed so late i dont think he would have beat speed horses like secretariat, and ruffian
brown22shu 4 years ago
If you knew how to type, maybe people could understand you better.
Just because he had the traits doesn't make him great. He didn't race long enough to be in the top 10 ever.
And do you know who Count Fleet it? You didn't even mention him
carlykaiser 4 years ago
brown22shu 4 years ago
Serisouly, Barbaro in there, no Count Fleet, and Citation so low?
carlykaiser 4 years ago
What if...horses have such a drive and spirit that they come back? Not hard to see Man O'War as Secretariat, Exterminator as John Henry (we all know he'll come back, just hope he gets the chance to run)I see the spirit and drive of the old timers in current horses, pity they can't fulfill their potential.
GenuineRisk1 4 years ago
That was GREAT! I think we should have had Seabiscuit in there since he liked to catch them at the end anyway and it would make for a great "family" race :)
lcstange77 4 years ago