Every time will opens his mouth, he tells another lie. Israel was not attacked in 1967. Israel did the attacking. And to say palestine was just a geographic terms in 1948 is the height of ignorance. There were palestinian citizens then. Have you ever heard of a scandanavian citizen?
@seattle0266 If memory serves, the 6 day war had something to do with the massing of Egyptian troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border, that Israel warned Egypt if shipping lanes were closed in the Straights it would be considered an act of war, the fact that Egypt did close the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping on May 22, that Jordon and Egypt signed a military defense pact against Israel, and Iraq deployed troops to Jordon to fight against Israel. But Israel was the aggressor, eh?
@FurorVikingorum Yes Israel WAS the aggressor. No less an authority than Yitzak Rabin had said Nasser did not want war and the 2 divisions he put in the Sinai were not sufficient to attack Israel. Israel was not expecting an attack. As far as The Straits of Tiran and shipping are concerned, we quarantined Cuba and ISrael has closed shipping to Gaza, so both us and Israel deserve attack as much as Egypt did in 1967. Let us not forget that both US and ISraeli intel said Israel was in no danger.
@seattle0266 2 divisions that were not sufficient to attack Israel, but then complemented by the other nations, promising reinforcements. Let us not forget that all the public rhetoric was about not wanting war. Also, Cuba is not Israel. In Cuba, we are the big kids on the block. Israel is a nation surrounded by Arab nations who want to obliterate Israel. They don't even recognize them as a nation nor have official diplomatic ties with Israel. I'm not saying Israel is completely innocent, but
@seattle0266 I can sympathize with their position. Also, Egypt has a history of closing the Straights of Tiran (1956) to Israeli shipping. The Arab nations have a history of trying to destroy Israel. They still do. Let us remember that it was Lebanese Hezbollah who has this continued propensity to send rockets into northern Israel (2006) and after the Israelis retaliate (albeit heavy handedly) they cry the victim.
@FurorVikingorum Let us not forget that my point still stands. Will is a liar if he thinks that ISrael did not fire the first shot in 1967. Any history book will confirm this.
Some STILL claim Pls and Hashemite Jordanians are "the same". It's like saying Canadians and US are th same. Or Irish and Scottish are th same.most important, ethnic cleansing is NEVER justified! Taking homes against their will. G Will thinks property rights are important, right? Hypocrite! Th HUMANS of Ple were occupied by big civilizations thru history. Should they pay fr what Roman Empire did, exp Jew rebels 2000 yrs ago? Any attack on Isr=pulverized. What Pls gain fro that after fair peace?
@Mystefystisk ethnic cleansing is never justified, whether it was jews or arabs who did it. I am not attempting to justify ethnic cleansing. I am saying that it happened as the result of a war started by arabs, and today to reverse the ethnic cleansing by import ing 5 million arabs into israel would mean the end of israel, and therefore is a non sequitur to solving this conflict. Israel exists and is there to stay. if the arabs had accepted that, there would have been no ethnic cleansing.
@lakersjohnson3 Mostly EUROPEAN Zionists were the foreign invading part! And they forced away many times more Arabs than vice versa, in any timeperiod the Zionists began their Ple project. Arabs have recognized Israels right to exist and securely so, for decades! Incl in negotiations. Signed agreements. Even Hamas have said that they will recognize Israel as both sides sign at a peacetreaty table. They won't however obey to commands like a dog before that.
@Mystefystisk haha, hamas will recognize israel? yeah right. they may have said that in english, but i challenge you to find one statement by any hamas leader that they will recognize israel in ARABIC. you won't find one.
Pls wanted in 2000 neg right of return in theory, but no more than 800.000 maximum to return to present day Israel, to be given somewhere to live since their homes were taken from them by force in 48-49. Out of the 3-5 million Pls refugees waiting. Ofc none is demanding all of them. the intl community will contribute money for compensations. Barak offered 100.000 ref w harsh terms. I don't defend anything and everything from Pls,but they are the biggest victims.Check the maps how little is left
@Mystefystisk "check the maps to see how little land is left"....what land? are you talking about sovereign palestinian territory? there was never any such thing. as for private property taken, there was very little. most of the land that those "palestinian maps" allege was "stolen" by the "zionists" was unpopulated, unowned, undeveloped land that didn't belong to anyone. if they were sovereign it would have been a different story, but they WERE NOT.
@lakersjohnson3 Depends on what u think of as very little. The proof, the documents, the research, the independent news witnesses, aid witnesses, Red Cross, etc, are all their for those who care to see.I gave u quotes with admissions by the leaders they were conquering another people's land. Sovereign? U don't even know the meaning. Humans have human rights. Zs and Israel have broken most of these rights of Pls for decades. Keep closing ur eyes or dare to venture outside of your comfort zone
@Mystefystisk i agree the pls. were probably the biggest victims. they were completely betrayed by their leaders and their elite class who drove them to war against an enemy they had no reason to fear. the zionists were improving tremendously the palestinian standard of living, economy, and general health.
@Mystefystisk and i fully support israeli efforts to compensate and/or allow SOME refugees to return as a condition of a peace treaty formed through negotiations. however, that seems more and more distant as the palestinians refuse to even come to negotiations, or even consider giving up the "right of return." i also fully support the return of refugees to the newly born palestinian state, if it is ever formed.
@lakersjohnson3 Is it any wonder Abbas won't sit down if Israel won't even freeze settlement activity in the occupied territories? Oh, wait, u don't give a sh. about the whole world except US, Israel, couple of pacific atolls. Nor the International Court of Justice. Highest judicial body in the world. So it's OK when there is a coup in the UN, 1947, creating majority by pressure from superpowers, and dirty deals, promises. But when all states exc aforementioned say illegal, then disregard that?
@Mystefystisk israel won't freeze construction within settlements. there hasn't been a new settlement built for ten years. this "demand" by abbas is unprecedented in all 20 years of the peace process. it's a ridiculous demand, but even so, israel ACCEPTED it last year. they freezed construction for 9 MONTHS. and what happened? the palestinians came to the table in the EIGHTH month.
@Mystefystisk the 1947 UN resolution was not a binding resolution. it only recommended the partition of the territory of palestine into separate jewish and arab states. the arabs did not have to accept it. they were well within their rights to reject it. the jews chose to accept it, meaning they ACCEPTED the presence of a palestinian state next to israel. but the arabs instead to chose to attack after the resolution. that caused the palestinian refugee crisis.
@Mystefystisk and could you please refer me to a SINGLE, BINDING UN resolution or ruling by the international court of justice that israel is in violation of or that states that settlements are illegal? answer: you won't be able to find one.
@lakersjohnson3 Well google Norman Finkelstein and u will find rulings in 2004 by the ICJ. He also writes, comments, about the Israeli Gaza war crimes of 2009, and much more concerning UN and intl rulings and resolutions. 242, the dividing wall, illegal expropriations, etc. Jews are allowed to build, expand, not Pls. Israel only Jews allowed to buy land. So u accept the 1947 division, but not other resolutions by the UN? U refuse to answer. Zs did obvNOT accept Pls State, or else it would exist!
Families from the WB are separated, seriously ill, pregnant women, are kept from arriving in hospitals. Gaza are strangled varyingly. An occupying force has acc to intl law a responsibility to provide for basic needs of the population. Isr. kill several times more civilians and overall, than vice-versa. It is WAR. Read both sides. Supp peace movement in Isr, moderates on both sides. HUGE catastrophic mistakes were made/ power politics/coup in the UN. But it IS possible to have a reasonable peace
@Mystefystisk yeah poor palestinian dayworkers are really exploited in israel, especially when they receive higher wages than almost all other palestinian professions!
@lakersjohnson3 How come many can't afford to buy lunch in Israel then? They take lunchpackages with them. Which are often taken away at the checkpoints, for bombfears. So they work 12 hours straight on construction sites, which can be hard work in the scorching sun, with little or no food. Not all Israeli employers exploit ofc, but it's tempting. Don't tell me Pls don't suffer immensely. Quite some Israelis do too. And I hope for wise people to come to power. On both sides. Esp Israel. Do you?
@Mystefystisk i don't know where you are getting this "how come many can't afford to buy lunch" nonsense. palestinians who have jobs in israel are INCREDIBLY lucky, and they know they are lucky. they get higher wages then virtually all other palestinians. how is that bad? they work normal hours, and then go home and are fairly well off compared to other palestinians.
@lakersjohnson3 All is relative. A few Pls probably have decent wages in Israel, but not the majority coming from the occupied territories. Yeah they are incredibly lucky not to be utterly poor,like many Pls, just a little bit. U talk as if u know nothing of the occupied territories, which Israel ofc is responsible for, together w the limited self rule, as Isr still occupies, controls trade, border-crossing, activities to a large degree. No viable self rule exists. u live in a bubble on purpose
@Mystefystisk and israel does not keep "stealing" land. if you are talking about settlements, all settlements that are legal under israeli law (and the illegal ones are typically demolished) are built on PURCHASED land (like the original zionist settlements were) or on state-land/open land that is owned by no one. palestinian homes are not "demolished" to make way for jewish settlers. that is a lie.
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, invaders often claim so. That they have legal right, everything is purchased, nothing to see here world. Everything is fine. Isn't it strange! Who would have thought they use a huge propaganda-machine to cover up their war crimes! "Land owned by no one." U prob don't care to know only Jews are allowed t purchase land in Israel. Check Gush Shalom on racist laws. Pls homes not demolished? Well I see the bulldozing on TV, and Jews take over espec in Jerusalem.600.000 settlers
@Mystefystisk so that's your source, bulldozing on tv? israel bulldozes illegally built homes, both jewish and arab. you only have a problem when they demolish the arab ones. and the VAST majority of settlements are built on purchased land, land previously owned by jews before 1948, or land that is unpopulated and owned by no one. what makes that illegal?
@lakersjohnson3 U have a feverish lie, or should I say an ice cold lie for everything don't u?! Ofc I don't rely on TV-pictures! but the Israeli and other news and independent aid workers being witness and reporting it. But then u don't accept ANYONEs testimony if they criticise Israel the slightest. Then there's a huge conspiracy by Anti-Semites, whatever that means. U could apply for the position of mental purity leader in North-Korea. Well, forgive me, but TRY to read both sides??? I DARE U
@Mystefystisk i actually used to be fairly pro-palestinian, UNTIL i started reading both sides. that's when i realized that the media is generally anti-israel bc it relies on biased palestinian sources most of the time, w/o verifying with israeli sources. there are so many other problems with the media. just go to camera(dot)org
Israel decides over the land btw, and none except Jews are permitted by law to build on new land. They did not encourage masses of Pls to leave. ISRAELI documents show enough to bin that lie a long time ago already.
Ofc it is Apartheid, but then the Palestine War hasn't ended since -48. Isr afraid of terror ofc. Poor dayworkers frm occupied territories exploited in Isr. They stand in lines for years of their lives. Humiliation is part of life for many Pls. Ofc I want no harm come to settlers, and ofc Jews have historic conn. to Pls. But taking away the lands and homes of human beings by force WILL NEVER BE JUSTIFIED!Hopefully there will be more efforts to find a compromise. But Isr keeps stealing land.
The Sionists were given 52% and much of the most valuable land on/near the coast. For decades Pls. have agreed to be given back only 22%, which is the WB and Gaza -67. They have agreed to have most refugees be compensated instead of right of return. They want a reduced part of East Jerusalem as their capital. Instead the Isr. increased the colonies to new record sizes during the 2000 negotiations and counting. Apartheid-YES! Racism-YES! There is discr. against Arab-Isr. although could be worse.
The Sionists were gradually given more and more dominatory rights in business by the British. The S. bought land to begin with, but fired the Pls. workers to have purely Jewish areas. Despite of the know-how they lost. The citrus industry was arab before they were pushed out. Imagine what it must have felt like to see ones land taken away from under ones feet. Check how Sionist terrorists, guerilla leaders viewed Pls. as dogs, subhuman. Patchwork UN division plan: insanity/coup.
Delta. Thats because the second Intifada directed against Israeli civilians, beginning in 2001, provided the justification to expand settlements. The settlement expansion, was premised in part on the concept of providing Israel's pre-1967 population with a "Human Shield."
Mr. George Will one of the reasons those DP camps in Europe disappeared was because some of those people came to palestine and helped create a new displaced people.
wow, my respect for George Will is now in the toilet. His understanding of the Israel-Palestine conflict is not just a-historical, it's downright Joan Petersesqe fantasy!
@m0ssadic -- Ahistorical comparision -- "Those camps are kept there for a propaganda reason!" with his WWII refugee comparision. He forgets one tiny detail -- as Tony Judt explains in his book Postwar -- after WWII there were substantial efforts to resettle and return most refugees to their home countries (and they had home countries to go back to). Palestinians recieved no such thing.
@AlKadath what about the 10 million sudeten germans who had to leave their homes in czechoslovakia? they weren't allowed to resettle there. what about the 3.5 million germans who had to leave their homes in poland? they weren't allowed to resettle there. when aggressors lose a war and many of them become refugees they do not get to return. and what happened to all those german refugees? they were resettled in germany, like the palestinians should be in arab countries.
@lakersjohnson3 Batshit crazy! U have little idea of world history on these topics, and your BASIC morality is horrifyingly lacking. Probably the result of onesided exposure all your life. Agressors u say. Pls. were deported from their HOMES. The sionist army ,outnumbering all the arab forces btw, were almost all rel. newcomers from Europe. Should African-Americans build an army in Africa and take territory by war? Bc. their ancesters once lived there? Take a step back and USE YOUR BRAIN!
@Mystefystisk the "zionist army" was only built in response to arab resistance to zionism, which was never anti-arab in its outlook, and in fact, zionist immigration to palestine produced many tangible benefits to the arab population, enticing many arabs from surrounding lands to come. while some palestinians were forcibly deported by israel in a war THEY STARTED, many also fled for various reasons. But this is not the cause of the conflict, it is the result of it.
@Mystefystisk the "zionist army" was only built in response to arab resistance to zionism, which was never anti-arab in its outlook, and in fact, zionist immigration to palestine produced many tangible benefits to the arab population, enticing many arabs from surrounding lands to come. while some palestinians were forcibly deported by israel in a war THEY STARTED, many also fled for various reasons. But this is not the cause of the conflict, it is the result of it.
@lakersjohnson3 TheZionist Army had modern equipment, tanks, big guns, uniforms, helmets, mortars, rifles, machineguns.outnumbered all the Arab forces. How did they win so easily? Being superhumans? "Enticing many Arabs from surrounding lands". Well, many Jews came into Eastern Europe, then Western, incl Germany. Which was on the rise in wealth and improvements, innov. It's claimed that Jews were treated warmly at first. But some had elitist views, charged more from other Grms than fellow Jews.
@Mystefystisk the zionist army won for many reasons, including better solidarity, and better morale. i never claimed they were super humans. this has no relevance. the zionist army was only good bc it WORKED to improve itself. zionist volunteers fought in wwI and wwII and came back with experience. the zionists were also motivated to defend their people, while the arabs were motivated to destroy the jews.
@lakersjohnson3 Now ur talkin like war-lies machine :( It's all very simple to u isn't it? Murderous Arabs, and angel-like, godsent Jews. Gods chosen ppl. Leading Zs, incl members of Knesset, and ministers, were not only killers of civilians, diplomats, negotiators, but were buried at mount Herzl with honors, 1979, aft peace w Egypt, dug up. Killed politicians, proposed to Nazi-Germany to war against UK, with Hitler, and were Socialist Pioneers simil to Hitler Youth, and admired Mussolini.
No wonder the Z "made the desert bloom" with stolen Ple water sources. And their socialist kibbutz lies. And were given dominatory rights in more and more businesses by the Brit. Remember the immigrants were Europeans as the Br. Ple had local authorities allowed under the Ottoman Empire, and then the British. They were not all peasants. There were more cities than Jerusalem. No wonder the Arab uprising in Ple 36-39. They saw how their country was taken from them gradually by thuggish methods.
@Mystefystisk actually, the cities grew principally due to arab IMMIGRATION to palestine, which happened bc of zionist development. jewish immigration was restricted while arabs flooded in from surrounding lands. even the british observed. their "country" was not being taken from them. they never owned it. "they" didn't even identify as "they" at the time.
@lakersjohnson3 WHAT?? :S "They" u say. "didn't even identify as they at the time." Is this some magic mind trick? Or just PURE RACISM!! WAKE UP!!! Jewish population in Ple was about 3% in the late 1800s. After late huge immigration Jews were still only 1/3 of the population in 48. To be given 52% and most of the valuable areas. Cities grew bc of BRITISH improvements and a long trend of rural to urban movement. And obviously Jews immigr! Never owned their fields,houses,appmts, stores, factories?
@Mystefystisk jews were actually given less than half of the arable land in palestine. the reason they got 52% is bc they got the entire BARREN, UNPOPULATED negev DESERT, which was a WASTELAND. but i guess that was "palestinian" land too? even though virtually no arabs lived there, and the bedouin who did made an alliance with the zionists.
And their schools,hospitals,cafés,mosques?Again u speak like Pls are some illusional ghosts that play tricks on ppls minds, but dont really exist. Or alternatively they were beasts on two legs. Cavemen. Have u ever seen Pls photographs of the time? Taken in Ple. Ple was not New York City, but far more modern and varied in business and culture in general, than many think, and compared to neighbouring lands. BEFORE Zs immigrated en masse. Obv bc great civilizations made their mark, good and bad
Also Arabs in neighbouring countries fled from poverty and results of WW1, to traditionally more advanced area in trade, Ple.The BRITISH were responsible for more modernity and improvements. Not the Z. at that stage. No wonder since they were rich and more advanced. Brit EMPIRE! If a local population is hostile for good reason maybe, one ought not immigrate there! Many Jews who immigr to US,Canada, Britain,had much better lives.Europe,US rebuilt Germany to a prosperous tolerant State after WW2
@Mystefystisk the jews who immigrated there were "lured" there because they were free there, allowed to live as jews without antisemitism. and now you're talking like "war-lies machine." it's all evil, ethnocentric, european imperialist jews and innocent arabs. in reality, both sides committed wrongs, but one can objectively say the arabs started the violence.
@lakersjohnson3 Arabs did not start the violence, and yes as Pappe and OTHERS states, they were invaded by foreigners. Yes both sides commited terrible deeds back then, and later. But th key is that Zs INVADED another part of th world. With more financial strenght, organization, and not least they were eventually chosen as Cold War allies of UK, and from then on th basic outcome was sealed. Also in -48 the US allied with Israel, France, Germany aso.Lets reverse it. ISRAEL ever be taken to court?
"Israel may have right to put others ontrial, but certainly none has right to put th Jewish people, th State of Israel on trial." -Israeli Prime Minister A Sharon,25 March,2001 quotedBBCNewsOnline. "Israel should've exploited th repression of th demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among th Arabs of th territories.--BNetanyahu,Israeli Dep Frgn Minister,former Prime Min Isr, speak Bar Ilan Univ, th Isr journal Hotam, Nov24,89.
@lakersjohnson3 "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
@Mystefystisk well i'm not surprised if yitzhak shamir said that. he was very right wing. still nothing anti-arab in that statement. yes, he wanted to expand jewish sovereignty, but not to kick out arabs. in his mind, the arabs already have 22 countries where they can live freely as arabs. they don't need another one at the expense of the jewish people. i happen to disagree, but that was his view.
@Mystefystisk the legitimacy and morality of zionism stems from numerous things. the first being the brutal persecution inflicted on jews in the diaspora for 2000 years; the second being the legitimacy of jewish nationalism resulting from that persecution, and from unique jewish peoplehood, and the third being the historic ties of the jewish people, including their unbroken (however small) presence in the land of israel.
@lakersjohnson3 I agree with legit connectns to Ple for Jews. But not over the DEAD BODIES of other humans living there. Not displacing anyone. Every INDIVIDUAL is unique, and equal in value. So Jews should be war criminals too, because they have been victims of that? Are Pls responsible for what the Roman Empire did to Jews 2000 yrs ago? Israelite tribes, kingdoms have comm genocides too. Abraham from Iraq, bought land near Hebron. From sheep? Much mixing of DNA in Ple. Many big civilizations
@Mystefystisk again, the zionists NEVER intended to establish israel over the "dead bodies" of anyone. the hoped to do it peacefully, and ben-gurion even hoped to form an alliance with the arabs once israel was created. the arabs decided to reject jewish self-determination, and they started a war. in the process of that war, many jews, and arabs, were killed. the jews emerged victorious. if it had been the other way around, there would have been a genocide of the jews.
@lakersjohnson3 Strong accusations! Insensitive to put it mildly. U use the term genocide without basis in facts. Zs considered alliances with Arabs BEFORE Israel, to first rid Ple of the ruling British, and then deal with the Arabs as the next obstacle. There are documents and minutes from late stage meetings bef april-48 confirming the Zs decided to conquer as much as they could. Which was not the earlier plans. Earlier they cons buying land in Argentina, Uganda. Check Ilan Pappe.
@Mystefystisk no. here is a quote from david ben-gurion in 1947: "If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, . . . if the state will help him in a truthful and dedicated way to reach the economic, social, and cultural level of the Jewish community, then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge will be built to a Semitic, Jewish-Arab alliance." Bama’araha (Tel Aviv: Mapai Publishing House, 1949), Vol. 4, Part 2, p. 265.
@lakersjohnson3 "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees fromGaza and the west Bank to Jordan.To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein not w Y Arafat."-Y Rabin a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards, expl his method ethn cleansing th occu land wo stirring world outcry. Quote in D Shipler in th NY Times,04/04/1983 citing M Cohen's remarks t Knesset's fgn affairs, def committee March16
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969. "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"Js villages were built in th place of Ar villags.U dont even know th names these Arab villags, and dont blame u bc geography books no longe exist. Not only books not exist, th Ar villags arent there eith.Nahlal arose in place of Mahlul;KibbutzGvat in placeof Jibta;Kibbutz Sarid inplaceof Huneifis,K Yehushua in placeTalal-Shuman.Aint a single place built in this land that didnt have a former Ar population."-MDayan,Apr-69,Ha'aretz;quot E Said, 'Zionism from Standp of Its Victims',SocTxt, Vol1,-79
@lakersjohnson3 This quote shows somewhat of an arrogance and aloofness of Gurion towards Pls. "Reach the cultural level of the Jewish community." As if they werent very different in culture too, as any society. Individuals is what matters! But Gurion and others showed what they actually did. Sure they considered an alliance against th Brit first, then they could deal with th Arab Pls after. But take him up on his trust being able to be built. Israel is the occupier. What is ur suggestions
@Mystefystisk i showed you the quote. ben-gurion wash't talking about an alliance against the british. he was talking about an alliance with the arabs to create a better future for all the people in the region. even today, israel has so much to give the arabs, and does give them (secretly, like advanced medical treatment), but they refuse it publicly.
@Mystefystisk haha ilan pappe? that's your source? that explains a lot. here is a quote from him in his intro to his book history of modern palestine: "My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the "truth" when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous. This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied not the occupiers."
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, isnt it funny to laugh at? Grusome issues are funny? I think Pappe in your quote shows honesty and humility before the task of presenting a book on these sensitive issues. And compassion with the colonized is wrong HOW? Sympathy with the occupied is wrong HOW exactly? U may disagree with him ofc, but that quote does him credit. Or do u think he is trying to say yeah I admit it, I am a big liar with an immoral agenda. YEAH RIGHT!
@Mystefystisk pappe in my quote admits that he is not interested in truth, only in how people perceive it. he admits he will try and present perception as truth. that is NOT what a historian is supposed to do. a historian is not supposed to say he doesn't care about the truth, and that he is biased toward one side in a highly controversial conflict. he is supposed to be OBJECTIVE, or at least pretend he is.
@Mystefystisk and zionism NEVER violated palestinians' property rights. property rights were only violated (on both sides) in the context of a war. violation of property rights ALWAYS happens in any war unfortunately. this particular war was started by the arabs. zionism was only able to exist prior to the war because it was based on jews PURCHASING land from arabs. completely legitimate.
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, up is down, no is yes, war is peace. Have u read ANYTHING by real historians without a mindless zionist agenda? The increasing domination of substantial areas of Palestine by zionists through mafia and thuggish methods, more and more made possible by the British and their preferential treatment, to put it wildly understated, is how they were able to win the 1948 war. U don't see human beings. You see groups/groupthinking, and support their powerabuse and warcrimes.
@Mystefystisk i actually have read things by real historians, unlike you, and if you knew anything you would know that the israeli historian Benny Morris is actually the man responsible for the ethnic cleansing narrative becoming mainstream. the problem with people like you is you are selective when it comes to morris. you like the fact that he allegedly proved that ethnic cleansing took place, but you ignore the fact that he said only half of the refugees were expelled.
@lakersjohnson3 I'm not so sure about Morris' singlehanded glory in this case. I have a name on the tip of my tongue... Anyway I don't want to talk down on Morris, he is probably a skilled historian. But I AM allowed to strongly disagree with him right? And find other historians more credible? Half is underestimating it from what I have seen. Anyway, u both discard him AND says he is THE expert. Which is it. Everyone is selective I guess. I dont LIKE grusome events. I look for credibility, logic
@Mystefystisk the only historians in modern discourse about israeli history more credible than morris are right-wing israeli historians like efraim harsh, who have disproved many of morris statements that he wrote back when he was a leftist against israel. otherwise, if you're coming from leftist, anti-israel history, morris' work is god. pappe, shlaim, finkelstein, khalidi, they ALL rely on his work.
AND IF that is true that "ONLY" half were deported by force, the Z army still was the intruder, the aggressor, the conqueror. That STILL not only holds on to stolen land, but keeps stealing more. So the exact categorization of the refugees of 48-49 may become a moot point in the future if this continues. If we have the chance and will we could really go deeper into this debate about the disagreeing historians and the whole thing ofc. Depends on you.
@lakersjohnson3 How do u think the Zionist forces gained control of the areas they conquered? By asking THE PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE, to move aside politely? Or don't mind us, we're just gonna live here in these bushes and streetcorners, never bothering anyone. OF COURSE the Z forces ATTACKED and were the agressors in-48. Yes, Arab forces attacked too, but to prevent a disaster and conquest of innocent people. Except Hashemite dictator king who made a dirty deal to get WB, for not attacking
@Mystefystisk i'm sorry but your statements go against historical fact. the arabs started the war. the zionists responded. in the process of that response, many arabs lost their homes, through fleeing or expulsion. this unfortunately happens in war, but the responsibility lies with the arab states for starting the war. not a single jew was left behind arab lines in 1948, all of them were expelled or forced to flee. yet 400,000 arabs remained SAFELY INSIDE israel.
@lakersjohnson3 NO not all Jewish Arabs were expelled, many were, and many fled yes, but not all. And why don't u TRY to contemplate how ethnically cleansing even MORE than 1 million isn't an easy task. Also intl community felt outrage, Red Cross and others monitored partly that the Z forces did massacre and deport at gunpoint. Zs were maybe nervous about the PR and image building they wanted intact. Begin said that the Z would show the Pl creatures if they stayed, they would be treated thusly.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
@Mystefystisk when ben-gurion said that, he was talking about the arab perception, not about reality. the arab perception was designed by arab propaganda.
'67 War came from territories that were later occupied -- Aggression didn't come from the West Bank and the Occupation of the West Bank is the longest militarized occupation in recorded history.
"No Palestinian state was attacked/destroyed in '48" -- Another deliberate obfuscation. No state existed in the region at the time. However Palestinians (who lived there) were kicked out, their farms and homes taken, their trees uprooted, etc.
@AlKadath actually the 67 war started when egypt violated the 1948 armistice and israel attacked egypt. when this happened, jordan attacked israel from the west bank and as a result israel gained control of the west bank. the occupation exists today because the palestinians have refused to make peace with israel. israel offered to end the occupation in 1967, 2000, and 2008, and the palestinians rejected the offer each time.
@MegaKees88 i'm sorry real history backed up by archaeological evidence is mythology for you. there are even palestinians today who know of the jewish connection to the land, maybe you should talk to them. watch?v=IVoCILevc4s
@lakersjohnson3 Jews living in Pls. before sionist gradual invasion, build up, were strongly against the way of the new jews. They claim to have lived in peace w th arab majority centuries. But aft they too would suffer ofc. Check Neturei Karta. Read Ilan Pappe, Norm Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Shlomo Ben Ami. I am against all religion.I am a libertarian.And wish ppl would edu themselves more before perpetuating long refuted simple propaganda by murderous racists. Check quotes by Begin, Sharon,++
@Mystefystisk yes all was great and peaceful when the arabs were in full control and jews lived as second class citizens in their own historic homeland. just because some crazy jewish fundamentalists like neturei kart a believe that jews should be relegated to second class status in their historic country does not make the belief of most jews to change that reality illegitimate. and finally, today, with the modern state of israel, all are equal under the law in the holy land.
@lakersjohnson3 Holy Land u say. Why not make it one State, call it Holy Land, or whatever neutral term is agreed to. And AS YOU CLAIM, " all are equal under the law? Zns used force bc they had to. Arabs realized they had no peaceful intentions-hostilities grew. Jews,especi in other Mid-Eastern lands different times were harassed, killed.Pls not responsibl for what Iraqis did to Jews in those times. Thes NKJews lived there gener. in peace Mild universal Judaism. About God, not earthly dominion
@Mystefystisk so let's look at who benefits from the one state deal. the arabs will immediately receive a majority, and once again another arab state will be created, and there will be NO JEWISH STATE. the whole point of the conflict is that a jewish state exists. a one state solution would mean victory for the arabs, and total loss for the jews. all are equal under the law in israel already. it is a secular state.
@lakersjohnson3 Nobody knows what happen with a one-State solution.Ofc have to agree first. meant it with sarcasm at your statements. If Jews could not peacefully immigrate to Ple, th immigration should've stopped at that point. For sake of all sides.Uspeak as if Jews have higher right as humans. Pls have plenty of documents, deeds, keys, pictures,indep report agencies,lots of proof to their stolen apartments, homes and farmfields.U speak as if Pls were cavemen from 100.000 yrs ago! READ 2 SIDES
@Mystefystisk jews have don't have a higher right, they just have a right to that one, TINY STRIP OF LAND that is their ancestral home, especially since they have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. antisemitism isn't some joke buddy. it might not be that bad today, but i wouldn't expect someone like you to understand what the jewish people have endured for 2000 years.
@lakersjohnson3 Tiny strip of land? For whom? An alien looking down on Earth, sure. But not the ppl living there pre Israel.So if your garden is just "microscopic" piece of land compared to rest of the planet, anyone can come and take it from u w a gun, because they claim an ancester lived there 2000 yrs ago? Jews actually thrive in the US, Canada, Western Europe. So how can "they", as if all Jews have ONE MIND, not have anywhere else to go? So YOU know these sufferings 2k yrs? Maybe I AM a Jew
@Mystefystisk it's easy to find many fake zionist quotes on the internet. the jews aren't just some random group of people coming to steal land from its "native inhabitants." they are coming back to what has historically been THEIR country. and they should have the right to settle in any part of it without displacing people, which they did. displacement, for the last time, only happened during the 48 war. zionism was completely legitimate and existed through cooperation with arabs.
There have been many genocides throughout history sadly. The solution is never to create new victims, new displaced ppls. "Someone like me" u say?! I dare say Israelites suffered way before 2000 yrs ago too. And so have most nations. be it from within or external forces. I truly wish we and everyone could actually BE buddies. But as long as u keep ranking peoples deserving of human rights by religion etc, u will never wake up.
@Mystefystisk wow. amazing how you minimize jewish suffering and antisemitism. there was NEVER an intent to displace arabs, and there was NEVER a desire to victimize them AT ALL. this was a movement about the jews, and for the jews, designed to save the jews from antisemitism. it wasn't anti-arab. it is a necessity for the jews to have a homeland, especially since the holocaust. do you know that america turned away a shipload of jews during the holocaust and sent them back to europe?
@Mystefystisk you need to read 2 sides. many of those palestinians with "stolen property" FLED their property. i'm sorry, but many people lose their homes in war.
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah and u disrespect highly reputable Israeli historians and others, having seen these documents, minutes of meetings, proof of property, and written books, discussed and studied this for many years. The Zs eventually decided to conquer as much as they could. U disregard Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Begin, Shamir, Dayan, Meir, Sharon, Eitan, even Barak, Rabin, and MORE with their racist statements against Pls. Easy to Google.
@Mystefystisk there are many fake zionist quotes out there. since you brought up jabotinsky, here is a quote from him: "In a famous 1923 article, Jabotinsky voiced his readiness “to take an oath binding ourselves and our descendants that we shall never do anything contrary to the principle of equal rights, and that we shall never try to eject anyone." yeah, he really wanted to kick pls out...
@Mystefystisk the place wasn't filled with genocidal jew haters at the beginning of zionism. genocide was the arabs indoctrinated response to zionism, stop trying to excuse it. this was the aim of the arab leadership during 48. no compromise, just genocide. fortunately they failed.
Israel has many decent and nice people. But is built upon corpses and theft. Massacres and ethnic cleansing. Upon racism-laws and apartheid. Huge military supremacy and war crimes.tens of billions of $ from US-others. very much based upon insane religious powerabuse and conquest. Ranking humans as Jews - non Js. Without these insanities there would be no justification. many Jews would live happier probabl, in th countries they came from. Ofc I see the dream of better life in P. Leaders to blame
@Mystefystisk there was no concept of "palestinians" at the time of the 1948 war. they were all arabs, or "southern syrians," part of greater syria or the larger arab nation, however you want to put it. the conflict must therefore be seen in this light. it is israel vs. the arabs, not israel vs. the palestinians. the palestinian identity was created as a dagger against israel.
@lakersjohnson3 U talk a little like Nazi Germany concerning Slavs of Eastern Europe. Like they're all a bunch of subhumans of th same filthy kind. They have no right to these ancestral parts of Europe where th great Teutonian Arian Knights lived heroically. The master-race. Th Slavs came from th East, should be forced back whence they came, bla bla, NOT my meanings. Not caring about them being Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, etc. EVERYONE came from the East! And from Africa.
@Mystefystisk this isn't some fantastic game where everyone should go back to where their ancestors come from. this just applies in this ONE case. where the jewish people have no home, they have been persecuted for 2000 years, and they legitimately return to where their ancestors came from and to where they had always maintained a presence. i'm sorry if you have a problem with that.
@lakersjohnson3 I have a problem with conquest and MURDER! Nothing against peaceful Jews there as I mentioned, they rejected Zionism not only religiously but also on basic common sense. And not only old time religious Jews rejected Zionism, plenty of dissent. But it was crushed with threats, violence. So u think since "Jews have no home" every Jew should go to Eretz Israel by force from the whole planet? Cleanse it? Are Jews happy in America brainwashed? Are they not at home? Such INSULT!
@Mystefystisk this is ridiculous. jews are a national group, and as such, have a right to a national home. italian americans have italy to go back to, irish americans have ireland to go back to, and jews have israel to go back to. get over it. stop telling me jews don't need a homeland when they clearly do. maybe it's hard for you to understand this as a gentile.
And what of all the other territorial conflicts of the world?Many ppls "have no home". I don't mind lots of small States. But I don't support going to war for land. It should happen peacefully, or it isn't WORTH IT! Human lives seem to be of little importance to u, compared to say the color of the flag etc. Why would Zs want to go from modern Europe and North America to Ple if it was such a hostile hellhole of genocidal Jewhaters? AND the Zs' intentions were NOT to displace anyone? No logic,lies
@Mystefystisk zionism was peaceful. by the time the war started, zionism was already too far underway. the arabs didn't mind zionism for a very long time, that's why they SOLD land peacefully to zionists. it wasn't until the arab elite/clerical establishment decided that jews didn't have a right to have a homeland there that problems started.
@Mystefystisk jews wanted to go to palestine bc that is WHERE THEIR ancestors came from. that is the place where the jews are indigenous to! look at the all the archaeological ruins! the place is filled with jewish history, and the jews were the only people in the past 3000 years to be SOVEREIGN there.
@Mystefystisk some zionists wanted to displace people, most didn't. the mainstream zionist movement never wanted to kick arabs out. it is a lie to say otherwise. all the kicking out happened during the 1948 war. why was there no "ethnic cleansing" before the 1948 war if the zionists wanted to kick out the palestinians?
How could Pls create a State when they were constantly conquered by large civilizations? Were they not still entitled to their homes and lands as other humans? Btw, th descriptions of th Solomonic Temple seem to be a rip off of a temple in Syria. Area never controlled by Solomon. According to Israeli archaeologists. Lots of nationalistic lies in every nations history writing. I still admire many Jews in and out of Israel. Palestinian was derogatory term by Israelites trying to conquer them
@Mystefystisk haha so now israeli archaeology is lies? i'm sure the dead sea scrolls that are now on display in new york, that are written in ancient hebrew and aramaic, the languages of the jews, were forged. actually, the word palestine was given to the land of JUDEA by the romans.
@lakersjohnson3 I said Israeli archaeologists of high repute shownthis description of this famous temple was probably a rip off of an actual temple, probably much before the writer, FOUND in Syria. Also much else of the hype around David, Solomon Old Test, exaggerated, lies. Arameic was NOT a Jewish language but from a bigger civilization dominating to the north preRomans.ofc Js spoke the language of their conquerors. Jesus in Galilee.spoke greek too.Plsderogatory term LONG before the Romans
@lakersjohnson3 What have the Dead Sea Scrolls to do with this.Palestinian was a derogatory term used by Israelites trying to conquer them. Long before the Romans. But it stuck. Arameic was from a bigger civilization to the North, before the Romans. Jesus spoke it in Galilee. Also probably spoke Greek for trade, philosophy. So? Ask the Israeli archaeologists themselves about King David and Solomon. Much more achievements in modern times from Jews than in those times. Although not wo exceptions
@Mystefystisk the dead see scrolls prove the ancient jewish presence in the land, a presence which you tried to deny when you said the temple of solomon was fake. the jews aren't relying on the temple of solomon as evidence of their history in the land.
@lakersjohnson3 U call them crazy, I as an anti-religion person call them mild and philosophic. What do u then call the truly crazy Jews among the settlers? They have recorded testimony about how they babysat each others children. Before the Zionists AND the British changed things dramatically. But u call these old rabbis crazy liars and know better about their lives ofc. Have u any real knowledge of these Jews? U have a long way to go my friend.Did Zionism bring security to Jews? In hindsight?
@lakersjohnson3 Eg. forces moved back from their side of the bord, had just arrived for peacetalks wh. Isr. forces went over their Prime M. and attacked Egypt. And spread the lie quickly in western media that they'd been attacked. Rabin admitted they attacked Jordan several times after 1949, just to get training and intell. The West Bank was given to Jordan in a dirty deal so they had their backs free. Check Finkelstein on the crumbs offered in 2000. Don't assume without reading both sides.
@Mystefystisk interesting how you exaggerate the number of number of palestinian refugees to 1 million, but in any event, that number is comparable to the number of jewish refugees who were expelled/fled from arab states as a result of the conflict. An analogous situation would be the founding of pakistan, in which MILLIONS of people fled/were expelled from both sides. the descendants of those people don't have a right to return, and neither do the palestinians or arab jews.
@lakersjohnson3 Again u make crazy comparisons. Yes, there were 1 mill. by the end of 1949. I condemn attacks on Jews in OTHER STATES, but Pls are NOT to pay for that! Simple logic and minimum of basic morality. Don't switch to other conflicts that differ greatly. Cheap excuses anyway. Two wrongs don't make one right. Again u don't see human beings, but group against group. Pieces on a board. U obviously value group power over the actual individual human being in real life. Basic human rights.
@Mystefystisk The first is about the 1967 war ofc. When Israeli forces with the hawkish politicians went over the head of their own PM and attacked Egypt, Syria. He kept quiet because it could hurt Israel if he told the truth of what happened. But many people still believe the lie that Egypt attacked or provoked a pre-emptive attack by preparing on the border. When they infact had already withdrawn away from the border Strait of Tiran, and just sent their diplomats to the agreed negotiations.
@Mystefystisk haha so egypt didn't provoke the attack/ so blockading the straits of titan is not an act of war under international law. YES it is. they provoked it. nasser had been shouting death to israel for years before as well.
@AlKadath very few palestinians were actually kicked out. most fled and/or were told to leave by invading arab armies. in any case, the palestinians as a society and through their leadership attempted to wage a war of genocide and extermination on the jews of the mandate, and to this day many of them want to do this. they failed in doing that, and now they are still crying about it 60 years later.
@lakersjohnson3 Israeli historians have shown thru sionist archives most did NOT flee but were deported by force. By 1949 app. 1 million Pls. had been ethnically cleansed from their homes. Their birthplace. And their families' land for centuries. Arab nations were promised by the Brit. indep. states rising up against the Ottoman Empire, WW1, on the side of UK. Sionists were promised a jewish homeland. BUT expressely without anyone being ethn. cleansed. UK, Churchh. chose Snsts. cold war ally.
@Mystefystisk interesting how you exaggerate the number of number of palestinian refugees to 1 million, but in any event, that number is comparable to the number of jewish refugees who were expelled/fled from arab states as a result of the conflict. An analogous situation would be the founding of pakistan, in which MILLIONS of people fled/were expelled from both sides. the descendants of those people don't have a right to return, and neither due the palestinians or arab jews.
@lakersjohnson3 Grusome massacres happened in India, Pakistan. But there was no EUROPEAN Pakistanis or Indians immigrating, building up armed forces, with the help of rich allies and powerful superpowers. As in Ple. Again the British had much to answer to in that conflict also. I support Jews from Arab countries, but as these countries are mostly poor and oppressive, they probably don't want to return. But I would definitely support them. Many Jews regret immigrating to Isr from Africa,ME,US,EU
@Mystefystisk well, seeing that you support jews from arab countries, it actually turns out that much of the israeli right wing is dominated by these jews from arab countries, like the israeli shas party. they are right wing because they remember when the arabs came to their neighborhoods, massacred them, looted their shops, and burned their homes down. but even the european jews were not "european." they lived in europe, but they maintained semitic cultural traditions.
@lakersjohnson3 I meant vict of attacks in other ME countries. Ofc I support all victims of attacks. So if Jewi Arabs were hardened, they're in their right to be murderous too? Against a completely different nation of Arabs that had nothing to do with domestic attacks in Iraq. But wait, u see all Arabs as one ethnicity. Showing how little u know. So AfriAmericans living in the US,are NOT Americans? What are they then?who decides?U?Are they entitled to conquer by war a piece of ancestral Africa?
@Mystefystisk arabs are essentially one ethnicity, or nation, and the palestinians even admit this in their national charter. in any event, the arab jews in israel understand a little bit more than the ashkenazim about the jew-hatred that pervades contemporary arab culture. i don't support them being right wing, but that is where they are coming from. but you are worried about the israeli right wing? the palestinian right-wing is far more dangerous and influential.
@lakersjohnson3 They do NOT, in fact they have constantly struggled to NOT be seen as Jordanians, and subcitizens in refugeecamps. Pls were and are different from other Arab nations. U are clearly under an evil racist spell here. I hope u wake up from it someday. ME is VAST!The ethnic cleans to create majority or even pure Jewish areas, will never be justified even if all Arabs were CLONES of one Arab.N.Af.Arabs conquered Christ. Spain, are Spanyards Arabs? or were they all at that time? Romans?
@lakersjohnson3 AfrAmericans were taken as slaves to th US, murdered, treated badly for a long time, and this is MUCH more resent than 2 THOUSAND yrs ago!!Can't u c th huge hole in ur argument, where ur ability to see all humans as equals should be? Js were LURED to Ple. Germany paid to thousands of Js th value of their possessions, to leave for Ple. Zs and Germany cooperated to get maximum t go t Ple. Ur lead astray by old heartless murderous propaganda, decreas nr of Isr believe it fortunately
@Mystefystisk the jews didn't come to palestine bc of what happened 2000 years ago. they came bc of intense persecution in the 1800s, and bc of history and culture. african americans don't need to establish a state where black people can be free. all of africa has retained its black majority, and african americans can go to any black majority state to live freely as blacks. jews didn't have that opportunity until 1948.
@lakersjohnson3 So as the insane Z leaders u repeat that everything is about majority power over others.how to get domination. And the "transfer" of people as they called it. And mass immigration. Build up of forces. The first modern terrorists some say. Among others, blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem with 91 innocent people killed in 1946. No importance where people are born and raised in the presence, but which murderous religions' claim from 2k yrs ago. No wonder there is so much war
@lakersjohnson3 So Jews aren't and weren't free in the US, Canada, UK, Western Europe, etc?Except NaziGermany ofc, but then many nations weren't free under their grusome rule.The time it lasted. Are u aware of what extreme insults u throw around at whole countries all over the place. I talked about blacks in the US DURING SLAVERY, racist laws and plain lynchings and murders! Not NOW! Duh! According to your logic they should have conquered territory in ancestral Africa.
@lakersjohnson3 And your idea of justice and peace is to sort people in different countries according to the color of their skin? Or who likes Opera, or Rock n Roll? It's just plum crazy, Im sorry if I get angry! Im sure u have good personal qualities but on these subjects u have really been screwed over mentally. I thought that place of birth and growing up was VERY to the core of the matter. The Zs understood they had to force ppl away from their homes, cities, towns and they DID
@Mystefystisk my idea of justice and peace is that the JEWISH PEOPLE get a country where they can live freely as JEWS without antisemitism. thank god they have one today.
@Mystefystisk actually even benny morris, one of those israeli historians (he is basically responsible for all the ethnic cleansing nonsense), said that about half the refugees fled, and the other half were "expelled." of course we will never be able to know the arab side of the story (like the encouragement of arabs to leave) bc the arab dictatorships have refused to open their archives, whereas democratic israel does.
@lakersjohnson3 Benny Morris?? He is NOT what I would call neutral by far! I have given u names of historians to check out. But u will probably never venture outside of your bubble. Yeah, everything is just dandy perfect if a country is a democracy. No war crimes have ever been commited by socalled democracies. Sure! In the mentioned Israeli archives it became clear when downgraded, that there was a huge ethnic cleansing by force. The encourag to leave lie have been disproven by many sides.
@Mystefystisk so you don't think benny morris' work on the palestinian refugee crisis is good, then? so he was biased when he wrote that. you know what, i agree with you. he was biased. he was biased AGAINST israel. you guys just don't like him because he changed his views after witnessing the murder palestinian terrorists were committing against israeli civilians. but he hasn't changed his anti-israel history books, which all anti-israel historians rely on today.
@lakersjohnson3 Now u contradict yourself. Yes he started out alright, but maybe pressure got to him. Flip floping. Richard Goldstone also was pressured. U leave out a whole bunch of top historians. But only mentions the one that suits your point of little value here. Keep to the issues. Not Morris as a major point. That is too consuming here and unfair to him. He was in the middle and then changed to be more pro Israeli versions. So? Is that a shock or smthg that is proof of anything?
@Mystefystisk morris' POLITICAL opinions have changed, not his HISTORICAL ones. you are using his modern political opinions to discredit what he wrote about HISTORY when he had leftist political positions. even when he was a leftist, he still said only about half of the arabs were expelled.
hard to change already published books by much I guess. Write new books then. What has his witnessing Pls terrorists as u say, to do with his work on Pls refugee crisis? If he becomes too emotional that could lead to an unfair, unproffesional bias. I definitely don't think they rely on Morris as u say. But there will be differing opinions on different issues ofc.
@Mystefystisk benny morris did right a new book after his political change in 2004. it was called the palestinian refugee crisis, REVISITED. he reached essentially the same conclusions that he did in the 80s when he wrote his original one. only half were expelled. don't go claiming they all were.
@Mystefystisk how can the encourage to leave lie be disproven when the arab states to this day refuse to open their historical archives about what happened during the war? i'll tell you why they don't open them. they KNOW what is inside them: the truth about how they encouraged arabs to leave.
first time Will shows some idiocy.
montezoma 2 months ago
Every time will opens his mouth, he tells another lie. Israel was not attacked in 1967. Israel did the attacking. And to say palestine was just a geographic terms in 1948 is the height of ignorance. There were palestinian citizens then. Have you ever heard of a scandanavian citizen?
seattle0266 3 months ago
@seattle0266 If memory serves, the 6 day war had something to do with the massing of Egyptian troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border, that Israel warned Egypt if shipping lanes were closed in the Straights it would be considered an act of war, the fact that Egypt did close the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping on May 22, that Jordon and Egypt signed a military defense pact against Israel, and Iraq deployed troops to Jordon to fight against Israel. But Israel was the aggressor, eh?
FurorVikingorum 3 months ago
@FurorVikingorum Yes Israel WAS the aggressor. No less an authority than Yitzak Rabin had said Nasser did not want war and the 2 divisions he put in the Sinai were not sufficient to attack Israel. Israel was not expecting an attack. As far as The Straits of Tiran and shipping are concerned, we quarantined Cuba and ISrael has closed shipping to Gaza, so both us and Israel deserve attack as much as Egypt did in 1967. Let us not forget that both US and ISraeli intel said Israel was in no danger.
seattle0266 3 months ago
@seattle0266 2 divisions that were not sufficient to attack Israel, but then complemented by the other nations, promising reinforcements. Let us not forget that all the public rhetoric was about not wanting war. Also, Cuba is not Israel. In Cuba, we are the big kids on the block. Israel is a nation surrounded by Arab nations who want to obliterate Israel. They don't even recognize them as a nation nor have official diplomatic ties with Israel. I'm not saying Israel is completely innocent, but
FurorVikingorum 3 months ago
@seattle0266 I can sympathize with their position. Also, Egypt has a history of closing the Straights of Tiran (1956) to Israeli shipping. The Arab nations have a history of trying to destroy Israel. They still do. Let us remember that it was Lebanese Hezbollah who has this continued propensity to send rockets into northern Israel (2006) and after the Israelis retaliate (albeit heavy handedly) they cry the victim.
FurorVikingorum 3 months ago
@FurorVikingorum Let us not forget that my point still stands. Will is a liar if he thinks that ISrael did not fire the first shot in 1967. Any history book will confirm this.
seattle0266 3 months ago
Some STILL claim Pls and Hashemite Jordanians are "the same". It's like saying Canadians and US are th same. Or Irish and Scottish are th same.most important, ethnic cleansing is NEVER justified! Taking homes against their will. G Will thinks property rights are important, right? Hypocrite! Th HUMANS of Ple were occupied by big civilizations thru history. Should they pay fr what Roman Empire did, exp Jew rebels 2000 yrs ago? Any attack on Isr=pulverized. What Pls gain fro that after fair peace?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk ethnic cleansing is never justified, whether it was jews or arabs who did it. I am not attempting to justify ethnic cleansing. I am saying that it happened as the result of a war started by arabs, and today to reverse the ethnic cleansing by import ing 5 million arabs into israel would mean the end of israel, and therefore is a non sequitur to solving this conflict. Israel exists and is there to stay. if the arabs had accepted that, there would have been no ethnic cleansing.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Mostly EUROPEAN Zionists were the foreign invading part! And they forced away many times more Arabs than vice versa, in any timeperiod the Zionists began their Ple project. Arabs have recognized Israels right to exist and securely so, for decades! Incl in negotiations. Signed agreements. Even Hamas have said that they will recognize Israel as both sides sign at a peacetreaty table. They won't however obey to commands like a dog before that.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk haha, hamas will recognize israel? yeah right. they may have said that in english, but i challenge you to find one statement by any hamas leader that they will recognize israel in ARABIC. you won't find one.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
Pls wanted in 2000 neg right of return in theory, but no more than 800.000 maximum to return to present day Israel, to be given somewhere to live since their homes were taken from them by force in 48-49. Out of the 3-5 million Pls refugees waiting. Ofc none is demanding all of them. the intl community will contribute money for compensations. Barak offered 100.000 ref w harsh terms. I don't defend anything and everything from Pls,but they are the biggest victims.Check the maps how little is left
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk "check the maps to see how little land is left"....what land? are you talking about sovereign palestinian territory? there was never any such thing. as for private property taken, there was very little. most of the land that those "palestinian maps" allege was "stolen" by the "zionists" was unpopulated, unowned, undeveloped land that didn't belong to anyone. if they were sovereign it would have been a different story, but they WERE NOT.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Depends on what u think of as very little. The proof, the documents, the research, the independent news witnesses, aid witnesses, Red Cross, etc, are all their for those who care to see.I gave u quotes with admissions by the leaders they were conquering another people's land. Sovereign? U don't even know the meaning. Humans have human rights. Zs and Israel have broken most of these rights of Pls for decades. Keep closing ur eyes or dare to venture outside of your comfort zone
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk i agree the pls. were probably the biggest victims. they were completely betrayed by their leaders and their elite class who drove them to war against an enemy they had no reason to fear. the zionists were improving tremendously the palestinian standard of living, economy, and general health.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk and i fully support israeli efforts to compensate and/or allow SOME refugees to return as a condition of a peace treaty formed through negotiations. however, that seems more and more distant as the palestinians refuse to even come to negotiations, or even consider giving up the "right of return." i also fully support the return of refugees to the newly born palestinian state, if it is ever formed.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Is it any wonder Abbas won't sit down if Israel won't even freeze settlement activity in the occupied territories? Oh, wait, u don't give a sh. about the whole world except US, Israel, couple of pacific atolls. Nor the International Court of Justice. Highest judicial body in the world. So it's OK when there is a coup in the UN, 1947, creating majority by pressure from superpowers, and dirty deals, promises. But when all states exc aforementioned say illegal, then disregard that?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk israel won't freeze construction within settlements. there hasn't been a new settlement built for ten years. this "demand" by abbas is unprecedented in all 20 years of the peace process. it's a ridiculous demand, but even so, israel ACCEPTED it last year. they freezed construction for 9 MONTHS. and what happened? the palestinians came to the table in the EIGHTH month.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the 1947 UN resolution was not a binding resolution. it only recommended the partition of the territory of palestine into separate jewish and arab states. the arabs did not have to accept it. they were well within their rights to reject it. the jews chose to accept it, meaning they ACCEPTED the presence of a palestinian state next to israel. but the arabs instead to chose to attack after the resolution. that caused the palestinian refugee crisis.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk and could you please refer me to a SINGLE, BINDING UN resolution or ruling by the international court of justice that israel is in violation of or that states that settlements are illegal? answer: you won't be able to find one.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Well google Norman Finkelstein and u will find rulings in 2004 by the ICJ. He also writes, comments, about the Israeli Gaza war crimes of 2009, and much more concerning UN and intl rulings and resolutions. 242, the dividing wall, illegal expropriations, etc. Jews are allowed to build, expand, not Pls. Israel only Jews allowed to buy land. So u accept the 1947 division, but not other resolutions by the UN? U refuse to answer. Zs did obvNOT accept Pls State, or else it would exist!
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk haha norman finkelstein? really? now that explains a lot of what you have been saying.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
Families from the WB are separated, seriously ill, pregnant women, are kept from arriving in hospitals. Gaza are strangled varyingly. An occupying force has acc to intl law a responsibility to provide for basic needs of the population. Isr. kill several times more civilians and overall, than vice-versa. It is WAR. Read both sides. Supp peace movement in Isr, moderates on both sides. HUGE catastrophic mistakes were made/ power politics/coup in the UN. But it IS possible to have a reasonable peace
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk yeah poor palestinian dayworkers are really exploited in israel, especially when they receive higher wages than almost all other palestinian professions!
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 How come many can't afford to buy lunch in Israel then? They take lunchpackages with them. Which are often taken away at the checkpoints, for bombfears. So they work 12 hours straight on construction sites, which can be hard work in the scorching sun, with little or no food. Not all Israeli employers exploit ofc, but it's tempting. Don't tell me Pls don't suffer immensely. Quite some Israelis do too. And I hope for wise people to come to power. On both sides. Esp Israel. Do you?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk i don't know where you are getting this "how come many can't afford to buy lunch" nonsense. palestinians who have jobs in israel are INCREDIBLY lucky, and they know they are lucky. they get higher wages then virtually all other palestinians. how is that bad? they work normal hours, and then go home and are fairly well off compared to other palestinians.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 All is relative. A few Pls probably have decent wages in Israel, but not the majority coming from the occupied territories. Yeah they are incredibly lucky not to be utterly poor,like many Pls, just a little bit. U talk as if u know nothing of the occupied territories, which Israel ofc is responsible for, together w the limited self rule, as Isr still occupies, controls trade, border-crossing, activities to a large degree. No viable self rule exists. u live in a bubble on purpose
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk and israel does not keep "stealing" land. if you are talking about settlements, all settlements that are legal under israeli law (and the illegal ones are typically demolished) are built on PURCHASED land (like the original zionist settlements were) or on state-land/open land that is owned by no one. palestinian homes are not "demolished" to make way for jewish settlers. that is a lie.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, invaders often claim so. That they have legal right, everything is purchased, nothing to see here world. Everything is fine. Isn't it strange! Who would have thought they use a huge propaganda-machine to cover up their war crimes! "Land owned by no one." U prob don't care to know only Jews are allowed t purchase land in Israel. Check Gush Shalom on racist laws. Pls homes not demolished? Well I see the bulldozing on TV, and Jews take over espec in Jerusalem.600.000 settlers
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk so that's your source, bulldozing on tv? israel bulldozes illegally built homes, both jewish and arab. you only have a problem when they demolish the arab ones. and the VAST majority of settlements are built on purchased land, land previously owned by jews before 1948, or land that is unpopulated and owned by no one. what makes that illegal?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 U have a feverish lie, or should I say an ice cold lie for everything don't u?! Ofc I don't rely on TV-pictures! but the Israeli and other news and independent aid workers being witness and reporting it. But then u don't accept ANYONEs testimony if they criticise Israel the slightest. Then there's a huge conspiracy by Anti-Semites, whatever that means. U could apply for the position of mental purity leader in North-Korea. Well, forgive me, but TRY to read both sides??? I DARE U
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk i actually used to be fairly pro-palestinian, UNTIL i started reading both sides. that's when i realized that the media is generally anti-israel bc it relies on biased palestinian sources most of the time, w/o verifying with israeli sources. there are so many other problems with the media. just go to camera(dot)org
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
Israel decides over the land btw, and none except Jews are permitted by law to build on new land. They did not encourage masses of Pls to leave. ISRAELI documents show enough to bin that lie a long time ago already.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
Ofc it is Apartheid, but then the Palestine War hasn't ended since -48. Isr afraid of terror ofc. Poor dayworkers frm occupied territories exploited in Isr. They stand in lines for years of their lives. Humiliation is part of life for many Pls. Ofc I want no harm come to settlers, and ofc Jews have historic conn. to Pls. But taking away the lands and homes of human beings by force WILL NEVER BE JUSTIFIED!Hopefully there will be more efforts to find a compromise. But Isr keeps stealing land.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
The Sionists were given 52% and much of the most valuable land on/near the coast. For decades Pls. have agreed to be given back only 22%, which is the WB and Gaza -67. They have agreed to have most refugees be compensated instead of right of return. They want a reduced part of East Jerusalem as their capital. Instead the Isr. increased the colonies to new record sizes during the 2000 negotiations and counting. Apartheid-YES! Racism-YES! There is discr. against Arab-Isr. although could be worse.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
The Sionists were gradually given more and more dominatory rights in business by the British. The S. bought land to begin with, but fired the Pls. workers to have purely Jewish areas. Despite of the know-how they lost. The citrus industry was arab before they were pushed out. Imagine what it must have felt like to see ones land taken away from under ones feet. Check how Sionist terrorists, guerilla leaders viewed Pls. as dogs, subhuman. Patchwork UN division plan: insanity/coup.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
Delta. Thats because the second Intifada directed against Israeli civilians, beginning in 2001, provided the justification to expand settlements. The settlement expansion, was premised in part on the concept of providing Israel's pre-1967 population with a "Human Shield."
kiptoy123 7 months ago
Let's say the Clinton 2000 plan was a fair deal. Since then Israel has taken more land. At what point will George Will stand up and say enough?
Delta4ms 7 months ago
Mr. George Will one of the reasons those DP camps in Europe disappeared was because some of those people came to palestine and helped create a new displaced people.
Delta4ms 7 months ago
"The problem is never that Israel is being provocative. It's that Israel's BEING is provocative to these people."
exactly
laxpol 1 year ago
Will and other zionists labor against a Palestinian state in vain, it is inevitable.
Plato86 1 year ago
wow, my respect for George Will is now in the toilet. His understanding of the Israel-Palestine conflict is not just a-historical, it's downright Joan Petersesqe fantasy!
AlKadath 1 year ago
@AlKadath what was a-historical about his explanation?
m0ssadic 11 months ago
@m0ssadic -- Ahistorical comparision -- "Those camps are kept there for a propaganda reason!" with his WWII refugee comparision. He forgets one tiny detail -- as Tony Judt explains in his book Postwar -- after WWII there were substantial efforts to resettle and return most refugees to their home countries (and they had home countries to go back to). Palestinians recieved no such thing.
AlKadath 11 months ago
@AlKadath what about the 10 million sudeten germans who had to leave their homes in czechoslovakia? they weren't allowed to resettle there. what about the 3.5 million germans who had to leave their homes in poland? they weren't allowed to resettle there. when aggressors lose a war and many of them become refugees they do not get to return. and what happened to all those german refugees? they were resettled in germany, like the palestinians should be in arab countries.
lakersjohnson3 10 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Batshit crazy! U have little idea of world history on these topics, and your BASIC morality is horrifyingly lacking. Probably the result of onesided exposure all your life. Agressors u say. Pls. were deported from their HOMES. The sionist army ,outnumbering all the arab forces btw, were almost all rel. newcomers from Europe. Should African-Americans build an army in Africa and take territory by war? Bc. their ancesters once lived there? Take a step back and USE YOUR BRAIN!
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the "zionist army" was only built in response to arab resistance to zionism, which was never anti-arab in its outlook, and in fact, zionist immigration to palestine produced many tangible benefits to the arab population, enticing many arabs from surrounding lands to come. while some palestinians were forcibly deported by israel in a war THEY STARTED, many also fled for various reasons. But this is not the cause of the conflict, it is the result of it.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the "zionist army" was only built in response to arab resistance to zionism, which was never anti-arab in its outlook, and in fact, zionist immigration to palestine produced many tangible benefits to the arab population, enticing many arabs from surrounding lands to come. while some palestinians were forcibly deported by israel in a war THEY STARTED, many also fled for various reasons. But this is not the cause of the conflict, it is the result of it.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 TheZionist Army had modern equipment, tanks, big guns, uniforms, helmets, mortars, rifles, machineguns.outnumbered all the Arab forces. How did they win so easily? Being superhumans? "Enticing many Arabs from surrounding lands". Well, many Jews came into Eastern Europe, then Western, incl Germany. Which was on the rise in wealth and improvements, innov. It's claimed that Jews were treated warmly at first. But some had elitist views, charged more from other Grms than fellow Jews.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the zionist army won for many reasons, including better solidarity, and better morale. i never claimed they were super humans. this has no relevance. the zionist army was only good bc it WORKED to improve itself. zionist volunteers fought in wwI and wwII and came back with experience. the zionists were also motivated to defend their people, while the arabs were motivated to destroy the jews.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Now ur talkin like war-lies machine :( It's all very simple to u isn't it? Murderous Arabs, and angel-like, godsent Jews. Gods chosen ppl. Leading Zs, incl members of Knesset, and ministers, were not only killers of civilians, diplomats, negotiators, but were buried at mount Herzl with honors, 1979, aft peace w Egypt, dug up. Killed politicians, proposed to Nazi-Germany to war against UK, with Hitler, and were Socialist Pioneers simil to Hitler Youth, and admired Mussolini.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk Socialist Pioneers of the Soviet Union that is!
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
No wonder the Z "made the desert bloom" with stolen Ple water sources. And their socialist kibbutz lies. And were given dominatory rights in more and more businesses by the Brit. Remember the immigrants were Europeans as the Br. Ple had local authorities allowed under the Ottoman Empire, and then the British. They were not all peasants. There were more cities than Jerusalem. No wonder the Arab uprising in Ple 36-39. They saw how their country was taken from them gradually by thuggish methods.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk actually, the cities grew principally due to arab IMMIGRATION to palestine, which happened bc of zionist development. jewish immigration was restricted while arabs flooded in from surrounding lands. even the british observed. their "country" was not being taken from them. they never owned it. "they" didn't even identify as "they" at the time.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 WHAT?? :S "They" u say. "didn't even identify as they at the time." Is this some magic mind trick? Or just PURE RACISM!! WAKE UP!!! Jewish population in Ple was about 3% in the late 1800s. After late huge immigration Jews were still only 1/3 of the population in 48. To be given 52% and most of the valuable areas. Cities grew bc of BRITISH improvements and a long trend of rural to urban movement. And obviously Jews immigr! Never owned their fields,houses,appmts, stores, factories?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk jews were actually given less than half of the arable land in palestine. the reason they got 52% is bc they got the entire BARREN, UNPOPULATED negev DESERT, which was a WASTELAND. but i guess that was "palestinian" land too? even though virtually no arabs lived there, and the bedouin who did made an alliance with the zionists.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
And their schools,hospitals,cafés,mosques?Again u speak like Pls are some illusional ghosts that play tricks on ppls minds, but dont really exist. Or alternatively they were beasts on two legs. Cavemen. Have u ever seen Pls photographs of the time? Taken in Ple. Ple was not New York City, but far more modern and varied in business and culture in general, than many think, and compared to neighbouring lands. BEFORE Zs immigrated en masse. Obv bc great civilizations made their mark, good and bad
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
Also Arabs in neighbouring countries fled from poverty and results of WW1, to traditionally more advanced area in trade, Ple.The BRITISH were responsible for more modernity and improvements. Not the Z. at that stage. No wonder since they were rich and more advanced. Brit EMPIRE! If a local population is hostile for good reason maybe, one ought not immigrate there! Many Jews who immigr to US,Canada, Britain,had much better lives.Europe,US rebuilt Germany to a prosperous tolerant State after WW2
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the jews who immigrated there were "lured" there because they were free there, allowed to live as jews without antisemitism. and now you're talking like "war-lies machine." it's all evil, ethnocentric, european imperialist jews and innocent arabs. in reality, both sides committed wrongs, but one can objectively say the arabs started the violence.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Arabs did not start the violence, and yes as Pappe and OTHERS states, they were invaded by foreigners. Yes both sides commited terrible deeds back then, and later. But th key is that Zs INVADED another part of th world. With more financial strenght, organization, and not least they were eventually chosen as Cold War allies of UK, and from then on th basic outcome was sealed. Also in -48 the US allied with Israel, France, Germany aso.Lets reverse it. ISRAEL ever be taken to court?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
"Israel may have right to put others ontrial, but certainly none has right to put th Jewish people, th State of Israel on trial." -Israeli Prime Minister A Sharon,25 March,2001 quotedBBCNewsOnline. "Israel should've exploited th repression of th demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among th Arabs of th territories.--BNetanyahu,Israeli Dep Frgn Minister,former Prime Min Isr, speak Bar Ilan Univ, th Isr journal Hotam, Nov24,89.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk well i'm not surprised if yitzhak shamir said that. he was very right wing. still nothing anti-arab in that statement. yes, he wanted to expand jewish sovereignty, but not to kick out arabs. in his mind, the arabs already have 22 countries where they can live freely as arabs. they don't need another one at the expense of the jewish people. i happen to disagree, but that was his view.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the legitimacy and morality of zionism stems from numerous things. the first being the brutal persecution inflicted on jews in the diaspora for 2000 years; the second being the legitimacy of jewish nationalism resulting from that persecution, and from unique jewish peoplehood, and the third being the historic ties of the jewish people, including their unbroken (however small) presence in the land of israel.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 I agree with legit connectns to Ple for Jews. But not over the DEAD BODIES of other humans living there. Not displacing anyone. Every INDIVIDUAL is unique, and equal in value. So Jews should be war criminals too, because they have been victims of that? Are Pls responsible for what the Roman Empire did to Jews 2000 yrs ago? Israelite tribes, kingdoms have comm genocides too. Abraham from Iraq, bought land near Hebron. From sheep? Much mixing of DNA in Ple. Many big civilizations
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk again, the zionists NEVER intended to establish israel over the "dead bodies" of anyone. the hoped to do it peacefully, and ben-gurion even hoped to form an alliance with the arabs once israel was created. the arabs decided to reject jewish self-determination, and they started a war. in the process of that war, many jews, and arabs, were killed. the jews emerged victorious. if it had been the other way around, there would have been a genocide of the jews.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Strong accusations! Insensitive to put it mildly. U use the term genocide without basis in facts. Zs considered alliances with Arabs BEFORE Israel, to first rid Ple of the ruling British, and then deal with the Arabs as the next obstacle. There are documents and minutes from late stage meetings bef april-48 confirming the Zs decided to conquer as much as they could. Which was not the earlier plans. Earlier they cons buying land in Argentina, Uganda. Check Ilan Pappe.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk no. here is a quote from david ben-gurion in 1947: "If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, . . . if the state will help him in a truthful and dedicated way to reach the economic, social, and cultural level of the Jewish community, then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge will be built to a Semitic, Jewish-Arab alliance." Bama’araha (Tel Aviv: Mapai Publishing House, 1949), Vol. 4, Part 2, p. 265.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees fromGaza and the west Bank to Jordan.To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein not w Y Arafat."-Y Rabin a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards, expl his method ethn cleansing th occu land wo stirring world outcry. Quote in D Shipler in th NY Times,04/04/1983 citing M Cohen's remarks t Knesset's fgn affairs, def committee March16
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969. "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
"Js villages were built in th place of Ar villags.U dont even know th names these Arab villags, and dont blame u bc geography books no longe exist. Not only books not exist, th Ar villags arent there eith.Nahlal arose in place of Mahlul;KibbutzGvat in placeof Jibta;Kibbutz Sarid inplaceof Huneifis,K Yehushua in placeTalal-Shuman.Aint a single place built in this land that didnt have a former Ar population."-MDayan,Apr-69,Ha'aretz;quot E Said, 'Zionism from Standp of Its Victims',SocTxt, Vol1,-79
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 This quote shows somewhat of an arrogance and aloofness of Gurion towards Pls. "Reach the cultural level of the Jewish community." As if they werent very different in culture too, as any society. Individuals is what matters! But Gurion and others showed what they actually did. Sure they considered an alliance against th Brit first, then they could deal with th Arab Pls after. But take him up on his trust being able to be built. Israel is the occupier. What is ur suggestions
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk i showed you the quote. ben-gurion wash't talking about an alliance against the british. he was talking about an alliance with the arabs to create a better future for all the people in the region. even today, israel has so much to give the arabs, and does give them (secretly, like advanced medical treatment), but they refuse it publicly.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk haha ilan pappe? that's your source? that explains a lot. here is a quote from him in his intro to his book history of modern palestine: "My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the "truth" when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous. This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied not the occupiers."
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, isnt it funny to laugh at? Grusome issues are funny? I think Pappe in your quote shows honesty and humility before the task of presenting a book on these sensitive issues. And compassion with the colonized is wrong HOW? Sympathy with the occupied is wrong HOW exactly? U may disagree with him ofc, but that quote does him credit. Or do u think he is trying to say yeah I admit it, I am a big liar with an immoral agenda. YEAH RIGHT!
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk pappe in my quote admits that he is not interested in truth, only in how people perceive it. he admits he will try and present perception as truth. that is NOT what a historian is supposed to do. a historian is not supposed to say he doesn't care about the truth, and that he is biased toward one side in a highly controversial conflict. he is supposed to be OBJECTIVE, or at least pretend he is.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk and zionism NEVER violated palestinians' property rights. property rights were only violated (on both sides) in the context of a war. violation of property rights ALWAYS happens in any war unfortunately. this particular war was started by the arabs. zionism was only able to exist prior to the war because it was based on jews PURCHASING land from arabs. completely legitimate.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah, up is down, no is yes, war is peace. Have u read ANYTHING by real historians without a mindless zionist agenda? The increasing domination of substantial areas of Palestine by zionists through mafia and thuggish methods, more and more made possible by the British and their preferential treatment, to put it wildly understated, is how they were able to win the 1948 war. U don't see human beings. You see groups/groupthinking, and support their powerabuse and warcrimes.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk i actually have read things by real historians, unlike you, and if you knew anything you would know that the israeli historian Benny Morris is actually the man responsible for the ethnic cleansing narrative becoming mainstream. the problem with people like you is you are selective when it comes to morris. you like the fact that he allegedly proved that ethnic cleansing took place, but you ignore the fact that he said only half of the refugees were expelled.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 I'm not so sure about Morris' singlehanded glory in this case. I have a name on the tip of my tongue... Anyway I don't want to talk down on Morris, he is probably a skilled historian. But I AM allowed to strongly disagree with him right? And find other historians more credible? Half is underestimating it from what I have seen. Anyway, u both discard him AND says he is THE expert. Which is it. Everyone is selective I guess. I dont LIKE grusome events. I look for credibility, logic
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk the only historians in modern discourse about israeli history more credible than morris are right-wing israeli historians like efraim harsh, who have disproved many of morris statements that he wrote back when he was a leftist against israel. otherwise, if you're coming from leftist, anti-israel history, morris' work is god. pappe, shlaim, finkelstein, khalidi, they ALL rely on his work.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
AND IF that is true that "ONLY" half were deported by force, the Z army still was the intruder, the aggressor, the conqueror. That STILL not only holds on to stolen land, but keeps stealing more. So the exact categorization of the refugees of 48-49 may become a moot point in the future if this continues. If we have the chance and will we could really go deeper into this debate about the disagreeing historians and the whole thing ofc. Depends on you.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk no, the zionist army was the defender. who started the war? who rejected the partition?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 How do u think the Zionist forces gained control of the areas they conquered? By asking THE PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE, to move aside politely? Or don't mind us, we're just gonna live here in these bushes and streetcorners, never bothering anyone. OF COURSE the Z forces ATTACKED and were the agressors in-48. Yes, Arab forces attacked too, but to prevent a disaster and conquest of innocent people. Except Hashemite dictator king who made a dirty deal to get WB, for not attacking
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk i'm sorry but your statements go against historical fact. the arabs started the war. the zionists responded. in the process of that response, many arabs lost their homes, through fleeing or expulsion. this unfortunately happens in war, but the responsibility lies with the arab states for starting the war. not a single jew was left behind arab lines in 1948, all of them were expelled or forced to flee. yet 400,000 arabs remained SAFELY INSIDE israel.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk why did israel leave 400,000 arabs inside of it safely in 1948 if they wanted to kick out all the arabs?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 NO not all Jewish Arabs were expelled, many were, and many fled yes, but not all. And why don't u TRY to contemplate how ethnically cleansing even MORE than 1 million isn't an easy task. Also intl community felt outrage, Red Cross and others monitored partly that the Z forces did massacre and deport at gunpoint. Zs were maybe nervous about the PR and image building they wanted intact. Begin said that the Z would show the Pl creatures if they stayed, they would be treated thusly.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk when ben-gurion said that, he was talking about the arab perception, not about reality. the arab perception was designed by arab propaganda.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@m0ssadic
'67 War came from territories that were later occupied -- Aggression didn't come from the West Bank and the Occupation of the West Bank is the longest militarized occupation in recorded history.
"No Palestinian state was attacked/destroyed in '48" -- Another deliberate obfuscation. No state existed in the region at the time. However Palestinians (who lived there) were kicked out, their farms and homes taken, their trees uprooted, etc.
Do these suffice m0ssadic?
AlKadath 11 months ago
@AlKadath actually the 67 war started when egypt violated the 1948 armistice and israel attacked egypt. when this happened, jordan attacked israel from the west bank and as a result israel gained control of the west bank. the occupation exists today because the palestinians have refused to make peace with israel. israel offered to end the occupation in 1967, 2000, and 2008, and the palestinians rejected the offer each time.
lakersjohnson3 10 months ago 3
@lakersjohnson3 or bcz they refused to give up their homeland to illegal immigrants who believe in mythology
MegaKees88 5 months ago
@MegaKees88 i'm sorry real history backed up by archaeological evidence is mythology for you. there are even palestinians today who know of the jewish connection to the land, maybe you should talk to them. watch?v=IVoCILevc4s
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Jews living in Pls. before sionist gradual invasion, build up, were strongly against the way of the new jews. They claim to have lived in peace w th arab majority centuries. But aft they too would suffer ofc. Check Neturei Karta. Read Ilan Pappe, Norm Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Shlomo Ben Ami. I am against all religion.I am a libertarian.And wish ppl would edu themselves more before perpetuating long refuted simple propaganda by murderous racists. Check quotes by Begin, Sharon,++
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk yes all was great and peaceful when the arabs were in full control and jews lived as second class citizens in their own historic homeland. just because some crazy jewish fundamentalists like neturei kart a believe that jews should be relegated to second class status in their historic country does not make the belief of most jews to change that reality illegitimate. and finally, today, with the modern state of israel, all are equal under the law in the holy land.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Holy Land u say. Why not make it one State, call it Holy Land, or whatever neutral term is agreed to. And AS YOU CLAIM, " all are equal under the law? Zns used force bc they had to. Arabs realized they had no peaceful intentions-hostilities grew. Jews,especi in other Mid-Eastern lands different times were harassed, killed.Pls not responsibl for what Iraqis did to Jews in those times. Thes NKJews lived there gener. in peace Mild universal Judaism. About God, not earthly dominion
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk so let's look at who benefits from the one state deal. the arabs will immediately receive a majority, and once again another arab state will be created, and there will be NO JEWISH STATE. the whole point of the conflict is that a jewish state exists. a one state solution would mean victory for the arabs, and total loss for the jews. all are equal under the law in israel already. it is a secular state.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Nobody knows what happen with a one-State solution.Ofc have to agree first. meant it with sarcasm at your statements. If Jews could not peacefully immigrate to Ple, th immigration should've stopped at that point. For sake of all sides.Uspeak as if Jews have higher right as humans. Pls have plenty of documents, deeds, keys, pictures,indep report agencies,lots of proof to their stolen apartments, homes and farmfields.U speak as if Pls were cavemen from 100.000 yrs ago! READ 2 SIDES
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk jews have don't have a higher right, they just have a right to that one, TINY STRIP OF LAND that is their ancestral home, especially since they have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. antisemitism isn't some joke buddy. it might not be that bad today, but i wouldn't expect someone like you to understand what the jewish people have endured for 2000 years.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Tiny strip of land? For whom? An alien looking down on Earth, sure. But not the ppl living there pre Israel.So if your garden is just "microscopic" piece of land compared to rest of the planet, anyone can come and take it from u w a gun, because they claim an ancester lived there 2000 yrs ago? Jews actually thrive in the US, Canada, Western Europe. So how can "they", as if all Jews have ONE MIND, not have anywhere else to go? So YOU know these sufferings 2k yrs? Maybe I AM a Jew
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk it's easy to find many fake zionist quotes on the internet. the jews aren't just some random group of people coming to steal land from its "native inhabitants." they are coming back to what has historically been THEIR country. and they should have the right to settle in any part of it without displacing people, which they did. displacement, for the last time, only happened during the 48 war. zionism was completely legitimate and existed through cooperation with arabs.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
There have been many genocides throughout history sadly. The solution is never to create new victims, new displaced ppls. "Someone like me" u say?! I dare say Israelites suffered way before 2000 yrs ago too. And so have most nations. be it from within or external forces. I truly wish we and everyone could actually BE buddies. But as long as u keep ranking peoples deserving of human rights by religion etc, u will never wake up.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk wow. amazing how you minimize jewish suffering and antisemitism. there was NEVER an intent to displace arabs, and there was NEVER a desire to victimize them AT ALL. this was a movement about the jews, and for the jews, designed to save the jews from antisemitism. it wasn't anti-arab. it is a necessity for the jews to have a homeland, especially since the holocaust. do you know that america turned away a shipload of jews during the holocaust and sent them back to europe?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk you need to read 2 sides. many of those palestinians with "stolen property" FLED their property. i'm sorry, but many people lose their homes in war.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Yeah and u disrespect highly reputable Israeli historians and others, having seen these documents, minutes of meetings, proof of property, and written books, discussed and studied this for many years. The Zs eventually decided to conquer as much as they could. U disregard Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Begin, Shamir, Dayan, Meir, Sharon, Eitan, even Barak, Rabin, and MORE with their racist statements against Pls. Easy to Google.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk there are many fake zionist quotes out there. since you brought up jabotinsky, here is a quote from him: "In a famous 1923 article, Jabotinsky voiced his readiness “to take an oath binding ourselves and our descendants that we shall never do anything contrary to the principle of equal rights, and that we shall never try to eject anyone." yeah, he really wanted to kick pls out...
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk the place wasn't filled with genocidal jew haters at the beginning of zionism. genocide was the arabs indoctrinated response to zionism, stop trying to excuse it. this was the aim of the arab leadership during 48. no compromise, just genocide. fortunately they failed.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
Israel has many decent and nice people. But is built upon corpses and theft. Massacres and ethnic cleansing. Upon racism-laws and apartheid. Huge military supremacy and war crimes.tens of billions of $ from US-others. very much based upon insane religious powerabuse and conquest. Ranking humans as Jews - non Js. Without these insanities there would be no justification. many Jews would live happier probabl, in th countries they came from. Ofc I see the dream of better life in P. Leaders to blame
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk there was no concept of "palestinians" at the time of the 1948 war. they were all arabs, or "southern syrians," part of greater syria or the larger arab nation, however you want to put it. the conflict must therefore be seen in this light. it is israel vs. the arabs, not israel vs. the palestinians. the palestinian identity was created as a dagger against israel.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 U talk a little like Nazi Germany concerning Slavs of Eastern Europe. Like they're all a bunch of subhumans of th same filthy kind. They have no right to these ancestral parts of Europe where th great Teutonian Arian Knights lived heroically. The master-race. Th Slavs came from th East, should be forced back whence they came, bla bla, NOT my meanings. Not caring about them being Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, etc. EVERYONE came from the East! And from Africa.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk this isn't some fantastic game where everyone should go back to where their ancestors come from. this just applies in this ONE case. where the jewish people have no home, they have been persecuted for 2000 years, and they legitimately return to where their ancestors came from and to where they had always maintained a presence. i'm sorry if you have a problem with that.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 I have a problem with conquest and MURDER! Nothing against peaceful Jews there as I mentioned, they rejected Zionism not only religiously but also on basic common sense. And not only old time religious Jews rejected Zionism, plenty of dissent. But it was crushed with threats, violence. So u think since "Jews have no home" every Jew should go to Eretz Israel by force from the whole planet? Cleanse it? Are Jews happy in America brainwashed? Are they not at home? Such INSULT!
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk this is ridiculous. jews are a national group, and as such, have a right to a national home. italian americans have italy to go back to, irish americans have ireland to go back to, and jews have israel to go back to. get over it. stop telling me jews don't need a homeland when they clearly do. maybe it's hard for you to understand this as a gentile.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
And what of all the other territorial conflicts of the world?Many ppls "have no home". I don't mind lots of small States. But I don't support going to war for land. It should happen peacefully, or it isn't WORTH IT! Human lives seem to be of little importance to u, compared to say the color of the flag etc. Why would Zs want to go from modern Europe and North America to Ple if it was such a hostile hellhole of genocidal Jewhaters? AND the Zs' intentions were NOT to displace anyone? No logic,lies
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk zionism was peaceful. by the time the war started, zionism was already too far underway. the arabs didn't mind zionism for a very long time, that's why they SOLD land peacefully to zionists. it wasn't until the arab elite/clerical establishment decided that jews didn't have a right to have a homeland there that problems started.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk jews wanted to go to palestine bc that is WHERE THEIR ancestors came from. that is the place where the jews are indigenous to! look at the all the archaeological ruins! the place is filled with jewish history, and the jews were the only people in the past 3000 years to be SOVEREIGN there.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk some zionists wanted to displace people, most didn't. the mainstream zionist movement never wanted to kick arabs out. it is a lie to say otherwise. all the kicking out happened during the 1948 war. why was there no "ethnic cleansing" before the 1948 war if the zionists wanted to kick out the palestinians?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
How could Pls create a State when they were constantly conquered by large civilizations? Were they not still entitled to their homes and lands as other humans? Btw, th descriptions of th Solomonic Temple seem to be a rip off of a temple in Syria. Area never controlled by Solomon. According to Israeli archaeologists. Lots of nationalistic lies in every nations history writing. I still admire many Jews in and out of Israel. Palestinian was derogatory term by Israelites trying to conquer them
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk haha so now israeli archaeology is lies? i'm sure the dead sea scrolls that are now on display in new york, that are written in ancient hebrew and aramaic, the languages of the jews, were forged. actually, the word palestine was given to the land of JUDEA by the romans.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 I said Israeli archaeologists of high repute shownthis description of this famous temple was probably a rip off of an actual temple, probably much before the writer, FOUND in Syria. Also much else of the hype around David, Solomon Old Test, exaggerated, lies. Arameic was NOT a Jewish language but from a bigger civilization dominating to the north preRomans.ofc Js spoke the language of their conquerors. Jesus in Galilee.spoke greek too.Plsderogatory term LONG before the Romans
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 What have the Dead Sea Scrolls to do with this.Palestinian was a derogatory term used by Israelites trying to conquer them. Long before the Romans. But it stuck. Arameic was from a bigger civilization to the North, before the Romans. Jesus spoke it in Galilee. Also probably spoke Greek for trade, philosophy. So? Ask the Israeli archaeologists themselves about King David and Solomon. Much more achievements in modern times from Jews than in those times. Although not wo exceptions
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk the dead see scrolls prove the ancient jewish presence in the land, a presence which you tried to deny when you said the temple of solomon was fake. the jews aren't relying on the temple of solomon as evidence of their history in the land.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 U call them crazy, I as an anti-religion person call them mild and philosophic. What do u then call the truly crazy Jews among the settlers? They have recorded testimony about how they babysat each others children. Before the Zionists AND the British changed things dramatically. But u call these old rabbis crazy liars and know better about their lives ofc. Have u any real knowledge of these Jews? U have a long way to go my friend.Did Zionism bring security to Jews? In hindsight?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Eg. forces moved back from their side of the bord, had just arrived for peacetalks wh. Isr. forces went over their Prime M. and attacked Egypt. And spread the lie quickly in western media that they'd been attacked. Rabin admitted they attacked Jordan several times after 1949, just to get training and intell. The West Bank was given to Jordan in a dirty deal so they had their backs free. Check Finkelstein on the crumbs offered in 2000. Don't assume without reading both sides.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk interesting how you exaggerate the number of number of palestinian refugees to 1 million, but in any event, that number is comparable to the number of jewish refugees who were expelled/fled from arab states as a result of the conflict. An analogous situation would be the founding of pakistan, in which MILLIONS of people fled/were expelled from both sides. the descendants of those people don't have a right to return, and neither do the palestinians or arab jews.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Again u make crazy comparisons. Yes, there were 1 mill. by the end of 1949. I condemn attacks on Jews in OTHER STATES, but Pls are NOT to pay for that! Simple logic and minimum of basic morality. Don't switch to other conflicts that differ greatly. Cheap excuses anyway. Two wrongs don't make one right. Again u don't see human beings, but group against group. Pieces on a board. U obviously value group power over the actual individual human being in real life. Basic human rights.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk The first is about the 1967 war ofc. When Israeli forces with the hawkish politicians went over the head of their own PM and attacked Egypt, Syria. He kept quiet because it could hurt Israel if he told the truth of what happened. But many people still believe the lie that Egypt attacked or provoked a pre-emptive attack by preparing on the border. When they infact had already withdrawn away from the border Strait of Tiran, and just sent their diplomats to the agreed negotiations.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk haha so egypt didn't provoke the attack/ so blockading the straits of titan is not an act of war under international law. YES it is. they provoked it. nasser had been shouting death to israel for years before as well.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk and was it you who flagged my comments as spam?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@AlKadath very few palestinians were actually kicked out. most fled and/or were told to leave by invading arab armies. in any case, the palestinians as a society and through their leadership attempted to wage a war of genocide and extermination on the jews of the mandate, and to this day many of them want to do this. they failed in doing that, and now they are still crying about it 60 years later.
lakersjohnson3 10 months ago 2
@lakersjohnson3 Israeli historians have shown thru sionist archives most did NOT flee but were deported by force. By 1949 app. 1 million Pls. had been ethnically cleansed from their homes. Their birthplace. And their families' land for centuries. Arab nations were promised by the Brit. indep. states rising up against the Ottoman Empire, WW1, on the side of UK. Sionists were promised a jewish homeland. BUT expressely without anyone being ethn. cleansed. UK, Churchh. chose Snsts. cold war ally.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk interesting how you exaggerate the number of number of palestinian refugees to 1 million, but in any event, that number is comparable to the number of jewish refugees who were expelled/fled from arab states as a result of the conflict. An analogous situation would be the founding of pakistan, in which MILLIONS of people fled/were expelled from both sides. the descendants of those people don't have a right to return, and neither due the palestinians or arab jews.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Grusome massacres happened in India, Pakistan. But there was no EUROPEAN Pakistanis or Indians immigrating, building up armed forces, with the help of rich allies and powerful superpowers. As in Ple. Again the British had much to answer to in that conflict also. I support Jews from Arab countries, but as these countries are mostly poor and oppressive, they probably don't want to return. But I would definitely support them. Many Jews regret immigrating to Isr from Africa,ME,US,EU
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk well, seeing that you support jews from arab countries, it actually turns out that much of the israeli right wing is dominated by these jews from arab countries, like the israeli shas party. they are right wing because they remember when the arabs came to their neighborhoods, massacred them, looted their shops, and burned their homes down. but even the european jews were not "european." they lived in europe, but they maintained semitic cultural traditions.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 I meant vict of attacks in other ME countries. Ofc I support all victims of attacks. So if Jewi Arabs were hardened, they're in their right to be murderous too? Against a completely different nation of Arabs that had nothing to do with domestic attacks in Iraq. But wait, u see all Arabs as one ethnicity. Showing how little u know. So AfriAmericans living in the US,are NOT Americans? What are they then?who decides?U?Are they entitled to conquer by war a piece of ancestral Africa?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk arabs are essentially one ethnicity, or nation, and the palestinians even admit this in their national charter. in any event, the arab jews in israel understand a little bit more than the ashkenazim about the jew-hatred that pervades contemporary arab culture. i don't support them being right wing, but that is where they are coming from. but you are worried about the israeli right wing? the palestinian right-wing is far more dangerous and influential.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 They do NOT, in fact they have constantly struggled to NOT be seen as Jordanians, and subcitizens in refugeecamps. Pls were and are different from other Arab nations. U are clearly under an evil racist spell here. I hope u wake up from it someday. ME is VAST!The ethnic cleans to create majority or even pure Jewish areas, will never be justified even if all Arabs were CLONES of one Arab.N.Af.Arabs conquered Christ. Spain, are Spanyards Arabs? or were they all at that time? Romans?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 AfrAmericans were taken as slaves to th US, murdered, treated badly for a long time, and this is MUCH more resent than 2 THOUSAND yrs ago!!Can't u c th huge hole in ur argument, where ur ability to see all humans as equals should be? Js were LURED to Ple. Germany paid to thousands of Js th value of their possessions, to leave for Ple. Zs and Germany cooperated to get maximum t go t Ple. Ur lead astray by old heartless murderous propaganda, decreas nr of Isr believe it fortunately
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk the jews didn't come to palestine bc of what happened 2000 years ago. they came bc of intense persecution in the 1800s, and bc of history and culture. african americans don't need to establish a state where black people can be free. all of africa has retained its black majority, and african americans can go to any black majority state to live freely as blacks. jews didn't have that opportunity until 1948.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 So as the insane Z leaders u repeat that everything is about majority power over others.how to get domination. And the "transfer" of people as they called it. And mass immigration. Build up of forces. The first modern terrorists some say. Among others, blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem with 91 innocent people killed in 1946. No importance where people are born and raised in the presence, but which murderous religions' claim from 2k yrs ago. No wonder there is so much war
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 So Jews aren't and weren't free in the US, Canada, UK, Western Europe, etc?Except NaziGermany ofc, but then many nations weren't free under their grusome rule.The time it lasted. Are u aware of what extreme insults u throw around at whole countries all over the place. I talked about blacks in the US DURING SLAVERY, racist laws and plain lynchings and murders! Not NOW! Duh! According to your logic they should have conquered territory in ancestral Africa.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 And your idea of justice and peace is to sort people in different countries according to the color of their skin? Or who likes Opera, or Rock n Roll? It's just plum crazy, Im sorry if I get angry! Im sure u have good personal qualities but on these subjects u have really been screwed over mentally. I thought that place of birth and growing up was VERY to the core of the matter. The Zs understood they had to force ppl away from their homes, cities, towns and they DID
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk my idea of justice and peace is that the JEWISH PEOPLE get a country where they can live freely as JEWS without antisemitism. thank god they have one today.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk actually even benny morris, one of those israeli historians (he is basically responsible for all the ethnic cleansing nonsense), said that about half the refugees fled, and the other half were "expelled." of course we will never be able to know the arab side of the story (like the encouragement of arabs to leave) bc the arab dictatorships have refused to open their archives, whereas democratic israel does.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Benny Morris?? He is NOT what I would call neutral by far! I have given u names of historians to check out. But u will probably never venture outside of your bubble. Yeah, everything is just dandy perfect if a country is a democracy. No war crimes have ever been commited by socalled democracies. Sure! In the mentioned Israeli archives it became clear when downgraded, that there was a huge ethnic cleansing by force. The encourag to leave lie have been disproven by many sides.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk so you don't think benny morris' work on the palestinian refugee crisis is good, then? so he was biased when he wrote that. you know what, i agree with you. he was biased. he was biased AGAINST israel. you guys just don't like him because he changed his views after witnessing the murder palestinian terrorists were committing against israeli civilians. but he hasn't changed his anti-israel history books, which all anti-israel historians rely on today.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@lakersjohnson3 Now u contradict yourself. Yes he started out alright, but maybe pressure got to him. Flip floping. Richard Goldstone also was pressured. U leave out a whole bunch of top historians. But only mentions the one that suits your point of little value here. Keep to the issues. Not Morris as a major point. That is too consuming here and unfair to him. He was in the middle and then changed to be more pro Israeli versions. So? Is that a shock or smthg that is proof of anything?
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk morris' POLITICAL opinions have changed, not his HISTORICAL ones. you are using his modern political opinions to discredit what he wrote about HISTORY when he had leftist political positions. even when he was a leftist, he still said only about half of the arabs were expelled.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
hard to change already published books by much I guess. Write new books then. What has his witnessing Pls terrorists as u say, to do with his work on Pls refugee crisis? If he becomes too emotional that could lead to an unfair, unproffesional bias. I definitely don't think they rely on Morris as u say. But there will be differing opinions on different issues ofc.
Mystefystisk 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk so if israel wanted to expel all the arabs, why did it leave 400,000 arabs inside the new state of israel AFTER the 1948 war?
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
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@Mystefystisk benny morris did right a new book after his political change in 2004. it was called the palestinian refugee crisis, REVISITED. he reached essentially the same conclusions that he did in the 80s when he wrote his original one. only half were expelled. don't go claiming they all were.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago
@Mystefystisk how can the encourage to leave lie be disproven when the arab states to this day refuse to open their historical archives about what happened during the war? i'll tell you why they don't open them. they KNOW what is inside them: the truth about how they encouraged arabs to leave.
lakersjohnson3 4 months ago