I used to be able to buy AN for about $10 per 50Lb bag; it was so pure it usually could be used right out of the bag. It was my raw material for making nitric acid since it WAS the cheapest nitrate available. Now it's completely unavailable and people look at you funny if you even mention it...
On watching again I noticed that there is a secondary external flame front that indicates a large amount of the fuel is exiting the nozzle unburned. Did you see that? Very showy but potentially wasteful and inefficient.
@bulruq :The flame may be due to CO and H2. The low molecular wt. of the H2 and CO actually help the Isp; for a given chamber pressure and temp. Both AP and AN CP's are fuel-rich; you can't add enough oxidizer for complete combustion because the solids loading would be enormous (unmixable). For comparizon: APCP has 26v% CO and 30v% H2. For ANCP it's 26 and 45v%. The magnesium in the ANCP and my low pressure design on this motor may actually make this flame more obvious. Good observation!
@UTubeisSHIT523441 : AN is a good, oxidizer; below AP but above KN. ANCP is very safe, you can get long burn times (it is fun to see your rocket keep climbing under power as opposed to a very short whooof), non-toxic (you can wash the mixing equipment and fertilize your lawn with it). It burns at a much lower temperature than APCP so your motors last longer; nozzles especially. Thanks for the comment.
@pevargas It is only a matter of time before they also target saltpetre. I have it straight from an agent of the BATF that amateur high power rocketry is one of their primary targets for investigation (read 'harassment').
@pevargasAlso keep in mind that 'Big Brother' is doing everything possible to BAN AN and make merely possessing it a class A felony, punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison!
@pevargas Having experimented with AN as an oxidizer I found it to be more trouble than it was worth because 1. it's hygroscopic, and 2. ignition is erratic and difficult. In your demo you can see how it 'chuffs' several times before you get consistent burning; if that had been in an actual rocket the assembly would have popped up off the stand, fallen over and either burned on it's side or taken off horizontally, terrorizing spectators.
@bulruq : The chuffing on this PVC motor was a combination of a bad igniter and the low design chamber pressure (being cautious with the PVC and my brand-new test stand). I have since improved my igniters to give almost instantaneous thrust. Check out my other video with my improved igniter and wheeled test-stand. Thank you for your comment.
@UofUfan13zero : This is ammonium nitrate composite propellant that uses a polymer as a binder/fuel along with magnesium as the thermic agent/metal fuel. The propellant is cold-cast in thin wall PVC pipe sleves acting as external surface combustion inhibitors alowing the perforated propellant segments to burn on the ends and the perforation. I highly recommend John Wickman's book/website along with R. Nakka's. These motors require careful design to avoid unexpected thrills such as explosions.
What exactly is the CP in ANCP as i have been looking into using AN for my oxidizers for my motors and was wondering if there was something more efficient that Sugar
@DJRoach520 : CP stands for Composite Propellant; a heterogenuous mixture of components. The oxidizer (AN) and metal fuel (Mg) are dispersed particles in a polymer matrix. This name applies to KN-Sugar propellants in a sense because the potassium nitrate is finely dispersed in a sugar matrix. These definitons apply to any mixture of components that don't form a true solution. Sugar and water is a true solution (homogeneous mix).
@lightdrifters : actually all the hardware you see is part of the test stand which measures thrust and chamber pressure. The ball of fire at the tail of the exhaust plume is the combustion of the hydrogen and carbon monoxide present in the exhaust as they come in contact with air.
@pevargas thnx. i would like to know any smokeless propellant compositions exept nitroglycerine mixture with nitrocellulose. i could make nitrocellulose but not im huge amounts. so i wanna try other smokeless propellants.
@pevargas thanks for reply. i have experience with kno3/sugar propellant and a few other pyrotecnic compositions but all of them without any metal powders. maybe thats for good reason because i always wondered about smokeless propellants. i like them and want to make one. but composite propellants ( oxidizer + metal powder + binder fuel ) have smoke because of formation metal oxides. with kno3 it is because of formation k2co3. so maybe you can help me here. preferably with nh4no3.
AN/sugar will not work in any shape or form, and meting the two together is very dangerous.
The reason is because the reaction generates to much water and cannot self sustain.
AN/sugar DOES work as a high explosive though, keep that in mind. Unlike KNO3 melting ammonium nitrate and sugar could easily result in a detonation, which would kill or maim you. This is due to AN's intolerance of heat, especially in the presence of a fuel/reducer such as sucrose.
@iwasapenny : I totally agree; any kind of melting of components is out for the reasons you stated. If anyone wants to play with AN compositions other than composite propellants using polymer binders, they should stick to powdered mixtures WITHOUT magnesium which will ignite in the presence of moisture. There are tons of reasons to stick to composites using elastomeric binders. It yields a non-detonable propellant. Tests show that a stick of dynamite will only shatter the propellant. Regards.
"melting ammonium nitrate and sugar could easily result in a detonation" ???. I know your experience with high explosives, that´s why I found your affirmation so odd. You know that a melted mix of AN and sugar won´t detonate without a very powerful blasting cap. It is impossible to self detonate such melted mixture or with impact, flame, static or even with a regular EBW.In my opinion you can cook AN and sugar together safely as long as you don´t stir it with a pack of blasting caps
There´s a huge difference in a AN cargo ship and a few kgs of AN. In the cargo ship detonation there was a fire burning above 1000ºC with the doors closed for many hours before detonation.
Anyway, your are 100% right to say it is not safe to make a AN/sugar melt, mixed with sugar AN will start to decompose in a temperature not much higher than 100ºC. I just stated that it won´t detonate.
@hani014 : The formulation is listed below in my answer to Megaflint. Please notice that this propellant does not use sugar. The motor thrust is about 20 kg and the propellant consists of (7) internal burning cylinders with the end burning as well.
@iwasapenny : Thank you very much; you are very kind. I have seen your work with sugar-based propellants; very nice indeed. I like your ability to make those motors in no time at all. You mentioned nozzle erosion in one of your videos; you may want to try a graphite insert; essencially a graphite "washer" and much lighter than steel. Thanks again.
Lovely secondary flame (no addition to Impulse Total). Obvious lack of pressure in combustion chamber (inadequate Kn?) - pulsation on start... Thank you!
FFFing youboob won't let me paste a link but it's at Wired.com.
bulruq 2 months ago
I used to be able to buy AN for about $10 per 50Lb bag; it was so pure it usually could be used right out of the bag. It was my raw material for making nitric acid since it WAS the cheapest nitrate available. Now it's completely unavailable and people look at you funny if you even mention it...
bulruq 2 months ago
On watching again I noticed that there is a secondary external flame front that indicates a large amount of the fuel is exiting the nozzle unburned. Did you see that? Very showy but potentially wasteful and inefficient.
bulruq 2 months ago
@bulruq :The flame may be due to CO and H2. The low molecular wt. of the H2 and CO actually help the Isp; for a given chamber pressure and temp. Both AP and AN CP's are fuel-rich; you can't add enough oxidizer for complete combustion because the solids loading would be enormous (unmixable). For comparizon: APCP has 26v% CO and 30v% H2. For ANCP it's 26 and 45v%. The magnesium in the ANCP and my low pressure design on this motor may actually make this flame more obvious. Good observation!
pevargas 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
what the composition of this fuel?
LIONMAN11111 4 months ago
wow, thats just impressive... I knew AN is such good oxidizer..
UTubeisSHIT523441 7 months ago
@UTubeisSHIT523441 : AN is a good, oxidizer; below AP but above KN. ANCP is very safe, you can get long burn times (it is fun to see your rocket keep climbing under power as opposed to a very short whooof), non-toxic (you can wash the mixing equipment and fertilize your lawn with it). It burns at a much lower temperature than APCP so your motors last longer; nozzles especially. Thanks for the comment.
pevargas 7 months ago
@pevargas Thank you very much for information. I think I will build one soon enough. Again thank you.
UTubeisSHIT523441 7 months ago
@UTubeisSHIT523441 : you are very welcome; good luck and make sure you post a video.
pevargas 7 months ago
@pevargas whats the ratio?
lovegunz1 6 months ago
@pevargas It is only a matter of time before they also target saltpetre. I have it straight from an agent of the BATF that amateur high power rocketry is one of their primary targets for investigation (read 'harassment').
bulruq 2 months ago
@pevargasAlso keep in mind that 'Big Brother' is doing everything possible to BAN AN and make merely possessing it a class A felony, punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison!
bulruq 2 months ago
@bulruq : Yep, I guess we are not supposed to be interested in science.....what a shame.
pevargas 2 months ago
@pevargas There is a great story on that exact subject somewhere on the internet called "Don't try this at home!" you've got to check out.
bulruq 2 months ago
@pevargas Having experimented with AN as an oxidizer I found it to be more trouble than it was worth because 1. it's hygroscopic, and 2. ignition is erratic and difficult. In your demo you can see how it 'chuffs' several times before you get consistent burning; if that had been in an actual rocket the assembly would have popped up off the stand, fallen over and either burned on it's side or taken off horizontally, terrorizing spectators.
bulruq 2 months ago
@bulruq : The chuffing on this PVC motor was a combination of a bad igniter and the low design chamber pressure (being cautious with the PVC and my brand-new test stand). I have since improved my igniters to give almost instantaneous thrust. Check out my other video with my improved igniter and wheeled test-stand. Thank you for your comment.
pevargas 2 months ago
That thing has some thrust to it! :|
TheCrazyFinn 7 months ago
@TheCrazyFinn : The test stand is over 40 kg; so I was surprized as well. Greetings from the US to Finnland.
pevargas 7 months ago
wow thats awesome! how did you make the powder?
UofUfan13zero 7 months ago
@UofUfan13zero : This is ammonium nitrate composite propellant that uses a polymer as a binder/fuel along with magnesium as the thermic agent/metal fuel. The propellant is cold-cast in thin wall PVC pipe sleves acting as external surface combustion inhibitors alowing the perforated propellant segments to burn on the ends and the perforation. I highly recommend John Wickman's book/website along with R. Nakka's. These motors require careful design to avoid unexpected thrills such as explosions.
pevargas 7 months ago
What exactly is the CP in ANCP as i have been looking into using AN for my oxidizers for my motors and was wondering if there was something more efficient that Sugar
DJRoach520 9 months ago
@DJRoach520 : CP stands for Composite Propellant; a heterogenuous mixture of components. The oxidizer (AN) and metal fuel (Mg) are dispersed particles in a polymer matrix. This name applies to KN-Sugar propellants in a sense because the potassium nitrate is finely dispersed in a sugar matrix. These definitons apply to any mixture of components that don't form a true solution. Sugar and water is a true solution (homogeneous mix).
AN won't work with sugar; I don't think.
Thanks for the question.
pevargas 9 months ago
never seen a Ammonium Nitrate rocket with after burner
lightdrifters 11 months ago
@lightdrifters : actually all the hardware you see is part of the test stand which measures thrust and chamber pressure. The ball of fire at the tail of the exhaust plume is the combustion of the hydrogen and carbon monoxide present in the exhaust as they come in contact with air.
pevargas 11 months ago
@pevargas I was thinking it was over expansion of the nozzle :-/
donperry1 7 months ago
sweet
xbsl123x 1 year ago
what the composition of this fuel?
E45111 1 year ago
@pevargas thnx. i would like to know any smokeless propellant compositions exept nitroglycerine mixture with nitrocellulose. i could make nitrocellulose but not im huge amounts. so i wanna try other smokeless propellants.
roboticmehdi 1 year ago
@pevargas thanks for reply. i have experience with kno3/sugar propellant and a few other pyrotecnic compositions but all of them without any metal powders. maybe thats for good reason because i always wondered about smokeless propellants. i like them and want to make one. but composite propellants ( oxidizer + metal powder + binder fuel ) have smoke because of formation metal oxides. with kno3 it is because of formation k2co3. so maybe you can help me here. preferably with nh4no3.
roboticmehdi 1 year ago
AN/sugar will not work in any shape or form, and meting the two together is very dangerous.
The reason is because the reaction generates to much water and cannot self sustain.
AN/sugar DOES work as a high explosive though, keep that in mind. Unlike KNO3 melting ammonium nitrate and sugar could easily result in a detonation, which would kill or maim you. This is due to AN's intolerance of heat, especially in the presence of a fuel/reducer such as sucrose.
iwasapenny 1 year ago
@iwasapenny : I totally agree; any kind of melting of components is out for the reasons you stated. If anyone wants to play with AN compositions other than composite propellants using polymer binders, they should stick to powdered mixtures WITHOUT magnesium which will ignite in the presence of moisture. There are tons of reasons to stick to composites using elastomeric binders. It yields a non-detonable propellant. Tests show that a stick of dynamite will only shatter the propellant. Regards.
pevargas 1 year ago
@iwasapenny
"melting ammonium nitrate and sugar could easily result in a detonation" ???. I know your experience with high explosives, that´s why I found your affirmation so odd. You know that a melted mix of AN and sugar won´t detonate without a very powerful blasting cap. It is impossible to self detonate such melted mixture or with impact, flame, static or even with a regular EBW.In my opinion you can cook AN and sugar together safely as long as you don´t stir it with a pack of blasting caps
vvideoupl 1 year ago
What about all the AN cargo ships that exploded due to AN runaway decomposition and detonation?
It almost certainly wouldn't detonate, you are right, but it WILL violently decompose or ignite.
Sugar melts at about the same temp AN starts to decompose. Sugar also lowers the decomp temp, see the problem?
I know to someone who tried to make AN/Su propellant, it violently decomposed every time.
Scott Fintel tried it as well, It ignited/decomposed.
Molten AN is a different animal my friend.
iwasapenny 1 year ago
@iwasapenny
There´s a huge difference in a AN cargo ship and a few kgs of AN. In the cargo ship detonation there was a fire burning above 1000ºC with the doors closed for many hours before detonation.
Anyway, your are 100% right to say it is not safe to make a AN/sugar melt, mixed with sugar AN will start to decompose in a temperature not much higher than 100ºC. I just stated that it won´t detonate.
vvideoupl 1 year ago
@hani014 : The formulation is listed below in my answer to Megaflint. Please notice that this propellant does not use sugar. The motor thrust is about 20 kg and the propellant consists of (7) internal burning cylinders with the end burning as well.
pevargas 1 year ago
can you please tell me the ingredients and their percetange?
that would be very nice
thx
Megaflint 1 year ago
Such an impressive flame! One of the most impressive ANCP motor I have seen.
Fantastic work.
iwasapenny 1 year ago
@iwasapenny : Thank you very much; you are very kind. I have seen your work with sugar-based propellants; very nice indeed. I like your ability to make those motors in no time at all. You mentioned nozzle erosion in one of your videos; you may want to try a graphite insert; essencially a graphite "washer" and much lighter than steel. Thanks again.
pevargas 1 year ago
Lovely secondary flame (no addition to Impulse Total). Obvious lack of pressure in combustion chamber (inadequate Kn?) - pulsation on start... Thank you!
schabanow 1 year ago