Veganism 101: Plants Rights, Deforestation and Field Mice (v

[julianmilam]

there are a number of sites I did a lot of research on this topic for a speech in philosophy class. Science showed that plants respond to danger even forest fires. Plants also warn other plants of insects as well. There was also a study revealing that plants could see the world around them in auras. All in all it was a lot of interesting research really changed how I look at plants and feel about plants. There were also numerous studies showing plants could read your mind or sense your emotions.

[buckslayer870]

killing plants? whatya gunna tell a cow when it eats grass...? kill the animal for killing grass? and theres a part that takes place in the logging industry called reforestation. usually takes place after commercial clear cuts. ever since Bible times, people have been growing crops to eat, and feed to animals, in which are killed to eat. and it still going today. also in Bible times, the sacrificed animals to their "gods" and the God. killing of plants, animals or whatever had been goin forever.

[buckslayer870]

@buckslayer870 (cont.) stupid, and pointless arguments. waste of time trying to change whats been going on for 1000's of years. have fun, and kill it n' grill it.

[julianmilam]

Science has shown that plants can feel pain and communicate to one another, so all these " Vegatable Hitlers" or vegans as some people call them are just as bad as those people PETA go against. Plants even scream in a low frequency that you can actually see with the aid of technology.

[princepersia1]

HAHAHA plants rights lmao shut the fuck up you hippie slut. Guess what bitch I eat 1 kg of red meat A DAY. I also kill rats by torture and hunt deer and EVERYTHING.

[tommyk77]

I felt ill hearing you go on about spiritualism. It's even less sophisticated than the first argument you addressed.

Look at this practically, scientifically. Plants do not have nervous systems, so they cannot suffer. This is grounds that we can have rational debate on. If you go into woo-woo then you're not making a solid case.

With this said, however, it's great to hear more vegan vloggers. Just keep it sensible

[MasterAdam100]

Mountains have spirits? Eating an herbavore is bad because they don't eat meat as well? Please explain why I should HAVE TO become a vegan.

Also, you may or may not support PETA but get this.....If you don't like the meat, get out of the kitchen. But don't get your ALF buddies to blow up the kitchen just because you don't like my lunch.

That was directed towards PETA and ALF btw. Nothing against you dear.

[Whino100]

I think most arguments have been countered already, as for field mice, too bad, but that's a non-causa pro causa, correlation does not imply causation. Let's assume that also other animals accidentally die, but that insects certainly die with the insects let's call it a draw because numbers are absent, then overall meat eaters causally kill more animals, given the number of mammals they kill by their intentional consumption.

[tricksta234]

thanks this was great stuff ...a real eye opener...

[Necrophobius]

Thank you for this, it really helped me.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Cheers! :-)

[AtomicPriest]

Cheers to you too. :)

[TheVeganicWitch]

Another cheers right back atcha! :-)

[habr28]

u hippie

[harRasmentpanda]

Plants dont have rights

and some animals

[TheVeganicWitch]

I am talking here about the theory of plants rights, not asserting that plants do have rights.

[SocialDeviant77]

Everything suffers. Suffering is part of life. We are born screaming and crying, we are born suffering. If suffering is so horrible, then wouldn't it be better to be dead? Clearly a dead creature no longer suffers.

[TheVeganicWitch]

See my response.

[watchdog3]

its all good but to have life an individual needs to eat life , this meens one needs to kill to live , from plant matter to protean matter , nomatter witch way a person may try to look at it every thing needs to live and every thing will die from drout, harvest,cultivating, & butchering.

it is called the circle of life & death . Cant get away from life & death.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Vegans accept the cycle of life and death, they are concerned with preventing unneccessary suffering. That is all.

[SocialDeviant77]

If you are going to argue the plants right argument with your opinion than you have really no argument at all. Btw, many people do respect the lives of plants. They are called Buddhists.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Ummm yeah I know that, I care about plants too. But I highly doubt the type of people who post the same "what about plants, they are alive. You murdered a carrot!" comments over and over are Buddhists. They're just amusing themselves by being idiots.

You have missed the point of the video anyway, more plants die to for meat eaters per person then they do for a vegan diet, which disproves the plants rights objection to veganism.

[SocialDeviant77]

Simply because the majority of people that you have met are not Buddhist, the plants rights theory goes out the window? I fail to see how more plants dying for meat eaters makes the argument invalid. Preventing suffering through your diet has a limited effect on suffering over all and have you ever considered that death may be a means to end suffering completely? Its hard to suffer, if your no longer alive. A gruesome point but a valid one. Who are you to say what is right and what is wrong?

[TheVeganicWitch]

I am not saying it cancels out the argument, I am just saying that in most cases I have heard it used it has not been sincere, it has merely been used as a tool of ridicule.

My point was that veganism should be supported by people who support a plants rights argument in reality because it causes less damage to plant life, that it is not a sound objection to veganism. How could it be?

"death may be a means to end suffering completely?"

We bring many animals into being purely to suffer and...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...die. A good case in point would be the short life of a male dairy calf, who is either prepared for veal or slaughtered soon after birth. That is pointless suffering, and I can think of many other instances.

Veganism is the only philosophy capable of ending this kind of maltreatment of animals.

[SocialDeviant77]

I don't understand how the life of a plant is less valuable than that of a animal. I'm still waiting for that to be explained to me in a logical manner. You need to disregard the actions of others regardless of what their motives may have been. Even if you are right about their motives, it does not make the point any less valid.

Do you also condemn animals who eat meat? What of the lions, tigers and bears (oh my!) ? Why is it ok for them to eat meat but not me?

[TheVeganicWitch]

I never said the life of a plant was less valuable then that of an animal. I never invalidated the idea of plants rights I merely stated that veganism, with its vastly reduced impact on plant life, was in line with plants rights. That plants rights is not a valid argument against veganism. You are not listening.

"Why is it ok for them to eat meat but not me?"

My logic would be because they require it to survive; you eat it purely for preference, tradition, convenience.

[SocialDeviant77]

We require it as well. Sure, we can eat beans and nuts but there is little difference between the two other than your self imposed morals. What about animals that are mostly herbivore but on occasion eat meat ( hippos, chimpanzees even squirrels ) do you condemn their actions as well? Surely they do not NEED to eat meat... and yet they do.

What of my death/suffering argument? Is that too a argument that simply isn't "valid"? If so, why?

[TheVeganicWitch]

"What of my death/suffering argument? Is that too a argument that simply isn't "valid"? If so, why?"

I never said it was invalid, you were just coming at *my* argument all wrong initially. Yes death ends suffering, but there is generally a lot of suffering in death. Saying that, I guess I know what you are saying, that death could be positive because it ends suffering. However, where there are other options, like a pleasant life that would not make one welcome death, I prefer those :-)

[SocialDeviant77]

Ah, but there is generally a lot of suffering in life as well... is there not? They way I see it, there is no "good" or "evil". I know you never said there was but it seems to me that you have a preconceived notion of "good" which you lean towards. Nothing wrong with that. Personally I find embracing both paths to be much more flexible or in this case, "delicious".

It has been nice chatting with you, I hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot. So much is lost during text communication. Peace.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I'm kind of a follower of the Golden Rule, I find that to be a good guiding principle. Lots of people have commented to me along a similar theme but as I see it we create enough death accidentally just being here and going about our business we shouldn't need to intentionally balence the scales in the direction of destruction.

But yeah, definately thought provoking to speak with you. Peace to you too! :-)

[tommyk77]

@SocialDeviant77 Are you making an argument that suffering is natural, so it's okay to do it?

To me, that seems like an awful case. We humans have the ability to reason against our basic instincts, so we have the duty to live ethically. Part of that is reducing the suffering of our fellow sentient beings within reason.

Just because you find animals products to be "delicious" is not a case for you to cause them to suffer

[SocialDeviant77]

Yea, I get it. Veganism has a vastly reduced impact on the destruction of plant life. That is great, really. I can totally dig that. However, that doesn't mean eating meat is the problem nor does it mean that veganism is the only solution. If people simply ate less meat we could come up with the same results. Maybe even better results because people wouldn't have to give up meat completely so there is a chance we would have even more people taking part in such a movement.

[Bonsbooty]

The way i feel is that plants do not feel pain. I seperate them from animals, because, they don't have a brain, or nervous system in the same way. The way i see it, all animals and humans are different. But Plants are clones of each other. That's just how i see it.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Some plants are clones yes, some do reproduce sexually though. The cloning thing used to really interest me, especially those plants that can reproduce by division or be propogated from cuttings. I grew a jade plant from a cutting taken from a house down the road and it always fascinated me thinking about whether the plant in my house was a different plant or if it was the same plant. I feel plants have some consciousness and sense so I wondered how the plant felt i.e. if both peices felt as one

[Bonsbooty]

Yes i think plants might feel, but i'm not sure they do. Because you know your body does stuff, like, your skin heals, you don't 'control' it. I see it like, the cells in your body makes it do that. And i think that could be the case when the plant makes food. I'm not sure, i'm probably wrong, but i'm always trying to increase ma knowledge lol.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Well I don't think plants feel pain because the function of pain is to get you the hell away from something that is hurting your body. If you are rooted in the ground you can't escape or move your limbs away from a saw for instance, so what purpose would there be to pain?

I read a chapter in a book called Supernature where he explains that plants respond to the suffering of other beings. For instance he cannot get the plant to respond, he goes off to cook some live prawns, comes back and...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...the plant has given a strong reading on the machine he is using. He (the book is written by a guy called Lyall Watson) concludes that plants do not respond to themselves being damaged but do respond to the suffering of others. Very strange!

[Bonsbooty]

Wow, you are very intelligent - you probably know that already lol. Thanks. That's pretty peculiar but interesting. I really wanna educate myself more on topics like this. Sometimes my viewpoint gets clouded, idk if that's cause i'm young or not, but NOT BOVVAARDDD lol(:

[TheVeganicWitch]

Thanks sweetie :-)

Yeah 14 is very young but you are showing an amazing amount of maturity by being interested in things like these. When I was 14 all I cared about was makeup and music LOL

[Bonsbooty]

hey Thanks(: LOL, I think music is amazing, but i cba to put make up on so i don't. I think things like these are important, and it's way more fun than watching T.V. which just bores me out of my skull, apart from desperate housewives haha. Well chow for now(:

[KnittyGrittyNatch]

Is this...VNV Nation? It sounds so familiar.

[TheVeganicWitch]

The music? Faith No More.

[KnittyGrittyNatch]

Ohh okay. I don't think I've ever listened to them before.

[Kracka420]

i hate seeing trees get cut down

i don't like seeing animals geting hurt

i am a creature of the earth i love your work<3

[TheVeganicWitch]

Thanks :-)

[rionn214]

also, about vitamin b12. i assume you'd take supplements because you can't get it naturally on meat. unless of course if you barf it out and re-eat the food(that's what most herbivores do).

not all people can eat vegetables. those who have physical labors need meat, its more economical rather than worry about which type of plant to mix up and supplements to take.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I fully understand what you are saying, but it isn't really relevant to the very specific topics I am addressing in this video. I'm a bit tired at the moment of answering the same questions / comments over and over. You are an intelliegent person, if you are interested in learning what vegans think about the issues you raised a simple web search would probably turn up all common beliefs on the matter :-)

If on the other hand you just wanted to leave your 2c on the matter thanks for your comment

[r2bt99]

"those who have physical labors need meat"

This simply isn't true. If you believe this to be true, can you tell me what exactly is in the meat that is makes it necessary for laborers to eat it?

And there's not mixing up plants. The idea of food combing for protein has been proved to be BS. There is nothing wrong with taking supplements (in fact most Americans should be taking multivitamins because they certainly aren't eating them - one can be a malnourished, overweight omnivore)

[rionn214]

the fact that you need supplements to "sub" those nutrients means its "unnatural". eating vegetables 100% is not healthy at all. keep in mind that vegetables/fruits naturally have cyanide, unless you cook it or process it. and what's the cure for cyanide poisoning? B12

@TheVeganicWitch

sorry, it isn't really on topic but I just like to discuss.

[batzndiamonds]

B12 is a bacteria found in soil, most people who get b12 deficiency are omnis, very small amounts of vegans get it. The rise in B12 deficiency can be due to washing fruits and vegetables too much, where is would otherwise be naturally found abundantly. BTW I was going to be a national swimmer for Canada (I quit because I wanted to spend my time on other things) and when i was vegan is when i won most golds and felt more energized, so don't think athletes need meat, i would know, i am one :)

[rionn214]

nah, what's good for you doesn't apply to everybody. it takes quite a lot of discipline to stay in that diet which means the effort itself makes it unpractical or that you're just making your life harder. live a better life not a longer one, as what they say. by that it all depends on the person, no diet or something can be good for everybody. I also find it repelling to see these vegetarian "evidences" are found in vegetarian sites and that they are hinged uncomfortably with ego and money.

[batzndiamonds]

im assuming youve never been vegan, so how would you know it's unpractical? Being on a meat based diet trying to deal with weight loss and cholesterol isnt practical what so ever. 2end, Im amazed that you fail to realize that the meat and dairy industry spend about 10 million plus on advertising and propaganda, companies who exploit animals only care about money, yet your "repelled" by vegetarian sites.....

[rionn214]

yep, there exists a big business in meat industry and the way I see it, these veganism sites is just another business propaganda. very easy to see. it's easy to say something is bad given the right choice of words. even eating raw and rotting meat is nutritious, try searching it.

yes its not practical, I tried and I can say that I don't want bother with it again. I easily got thinner in just a matter of days, I've got hyper metabolism and veganism didn't make it any better for me.

[rionn214]

farmers use the same field to plant and feed their livestock. this makes sure the land is rested between harvests.

if the reason to be vegetarian is to cause less harm to animals, I'd rather stay as a Non-speciest and eat everything on the biosphere which provides me food.

I am not prejudiced when choosing which species shall have its life ended on this planet to satisfy my need for energy supplementation.

(i didn't see my last post, i guess it wasn't posted... damn Internets!)

[TheVeganicWitch]

Yeah, you may have to repost, I can't see a post preceeding this one. Sometimes YT likes to eat comments unfortunately :-(

[r2bt99]

If you don't eat humans to satisfy your "need for energy supplementation" then you're not a non-speciest.

Please do some reading on veganism and the "expanding circle". That should answer some of your questions about why vegans would live the way they do.

[rionn214]

hah! i wouldn't mind eating a human if need be. but we don't really want to do that now don't we? You're choosing one species over another, in the same way people eat beef but eschew pork.

[Fattaman]

I still do not see how your argument about feed to meat ratio holds up. If you are vegan, you STILL eat plants. Maybe less plants then animals are killed, but they are killed nonetheless. You might say that it would be more economical to eat plants only, because so many plant matter is wasted as animal food. This is true, but so what? This alone doesn't make eating animals unethical. It doesn't make meat less tasty either.

[TheVeganicWitch]

No we eat both less plants AND animals, did you read the stats and think about it at all? I really don't think I could state the facts any clearer then that.

Bottom line is, if I want to continue living I must kill something. My desire is to cause the least death and suffering possible whilst living the healthiest and happiest life I can. By being vegan I reduce my consumption of animal products to nil and minimise both visable and indirect (i.e. 2nd hand nutrients derived from meat) plant...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...deaths. When you look at the maths you realise that veganism is the most effective way of doing this. You just can't get it because you are stuck on the fact that all we eat is plants, and although its not immediately obvious when you look into it I actually consume much less plant life then your average meat eater or lacto-ov0 vegetarian.

As for meat being delicious, I didn't quit meat because I didn't like the taste but I can tell you that the cravings disappeared almost overnight 4 me :-)

[Fattaman]

So you (vegans) try to kill as little as possible? Okay, if that's what you consider ethical, good for you. One could also say one should not kill at all, and it is only ethical to not kill at all. I personally think it is ethical to kill any living being as long as you eat it, or use it for anything that is for the benefit of your personal wellbeing.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Well its the principle of least suffering, it's a framework to assist in making ethical decisions. Using that you can weigh up what the right thing to do in any given situation might be (not that there aren't still very tricky questions in life). For most people it ends where risk of death or severe injury begins (i.e. where survival instinct kicks in and your ability to use ethical reasoning would fail anyway in most instances). For instance I make a distinction between people who are forced...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...to kill animals to survive and people who eat animals purely for pleasure. Having been vegan for 14 months now and knowing people who have been for decades and are in fantastic health I now know that people in the developed world are only eating meat/milk/eggs for pleasure. I cannot justify taking another animals life for a fleeting pleasure when I know there are lots of other delicious things I could eat instead.

[Fattaman]

I see. Well, I eat animals AND those other things. I think that is perfectly fine. So I think I have different ethics then you (and other vegans and vegetarians).

[TheVeganicWitch]

It would seem you do. Would you mind explaining what your ethical framework is? For instance what factors you considered in deciding it is ok to kill or exploit animals when there are other alternatives.

[Fattaman]

Apparently, the fact that there are other alternatives is of no influence on my decision. Please note that I do not like unnecessary mistreatment of animals. If biological meat were just as cheap as regular meat, I would eat only biological meat. Unfortunately it is 3 times as expensive and I am a slave of my wallet.

[TheVeganicWitch]

"Apparently, the fact that there are other alternatives is of no influence on my decision."

What does influence your decision?

[Fattaman]

As I said, my wallet, and the fact that I find meat tasty. This may sound a little self-centered, but it's true, I guess.

[ImGonnaSuscribeYoooo]

are you from austrailia

[TheVeganicWitch]

Yep :-)

[rionn214]

on the 1st argument: in the past, people believe animals don't have feelings. lately, doctors say fetuses can't feel pain. now if science can finally prove plants can "feel" (obviously not the one humans "feel"). what will you do then?

so the rule is: eat any -living thing- that doesn't have the intelligence (on par with "human idea" of "pain and feeling") to display "feelings"?

i don't know what to call that...

[TheVeganicWitch]

Actually that isn't my reasoning at all, and on this point I think I differ from a lot of vegans (but i could be wrong).

I HAVE to eat right (well if I want to remain living, which I do). If I eat animals I am causing much more loss of life then if I don't, even for plants, even though all I eat is plants. I explained how that works in the video.

I actually don't discount that plants have some form of feeling, although it would be very different from that of animals (imcludig humans)...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...Think about the usefulness of pain in your own life. Pain signals tell your body to escape the situation which is causing you damage, to withdraw your hand quickly from a hot surface or to move away as fast as possible from someone who is hurting you. You can do this because you are animate, an animal. A plant is fixed in the ground, it cannot flee, therefore a pain response would have no usefulness.

[rionn214]

ahh so because they can't flee its ok to eat them? Have you heard of the plant called Mimosa Pudica? Pain responses useless? Why do you think some plants evolved to grow thorns? Their methods aren't just the same us/animals.

I eat plants and animals. I don't turn a blind eye on the basic concept of life, the cycle of life. Kill to eat, eat to live. No matter how you say it, you are consuming life. Morally, there really isn't any much difference from a vegan or meat-eater or balanced diet.

[TheVeganicWitch]

"ahh so because they can't flee its ok to eat them?"

Ahhhh no, where did I state that? Plants have developed strategies like thorns and some degree of movement to protect their survival, yes. I NEVER said they do not want to survive!

"Morally, there really isn't any much difference from a vegan or meat-eater or balanced diet."

As I explained above if plants are a concern for you you should support veganism because we are responsible for the death of less plants as well as less animals.

[TheVeganicWitch]

"I don't turn a blind eye on the basic concept of life, the cycle of life. Kill to eat, eat to live. No matter how you say it, you are consuming life."

Yes I am, I am just following the principle of less harm. If I am killing too then how can you claim I am "turning a blind eye to the basic concept of life"? I just don't lie to myself that eating a pork chop is the same as a peice of broccoli, when you can SEE the pig has all the same senses as well do and objectively prove it. Its obvious,...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...you just don't want to see it.

[wurlybird9]

just because there is a "pain response," doesn't mean there's sentient suffering. If we are simply considering any vibrational activity as consciousness, then perhaps plants and animals should all perish, and leave the poor rocks and minerals alone, stop using our alchemical processes to disturb their state of being, and extract from Earth's fundamental resonant core. Crystals should have rights too! We are animals therefore look out for our own, plants will have to plot their own revenge

[rionn214]

"just because there is a "pain response," doesn't mean there's sentient suffering."

well of course, that's why we respect mother earth? i guess she isn't suffering because she doesn't give a "pain response". she's the crystals, rocks , plants and animals you are talking about. hypocritical aren't we?

Eating a "non-sensitive" living thing sure clears up the conscience, no? They sure are not worth saving or "relieve suffering" than an animal aren't they? sure is convenient.

[rionn214]

oh yeah, the sarcasm of "bacterias/rocks/whatever should have rights too!" which is frequently see. isn't that funny?

you seem to forget that we aren't the ones who have the strong opinion on defending the "feelings" of animals (which are living things).

[rionn214]

I support balance and control of eating meat. I support better care for animals. But not eating meat at all is outrageous. There are people who need to eat meat. Sure you can replace those with alternatives, but if you can't sustain that, what happens?

also, I would like to know what is your opinion on the population explosion of white tail deers.

[TheVeganicWitch]

"But not eating meat at all is outrageous."

How so? When I started being vegan it was an experiment, I believed all the bullshit about nutrition I learnt on TV, I had no idea you could get calcuim, iron and protein from green vegetables etc. I was scared I would get ill but for me it was worth a try. I got BETTER! 14 months on I still feel so much better then I did as an omnivore. I can't imagine going back now, it would be madness!

[TheVeganicWitch]

"also, I would like to know what is your opinion on the population explosion of white tail deers."

My opinion of hunting? If you really have no other option I have no issue with that, morally it is the same as the lion etc who only kill to live. If you have other options and you kill for fun then you repulse me, although I aknoweldge many people were brought up to do it so maybe its not their fault so much.

In my view, leave nature alone and She finds a way. Whenever we interfere we cause...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...problems. I live in Australia, not North America so I am not all that familiar with the ins and outs of the white tailed deer. I have seen that humans cause problems in the first place for animals, for instance we knock down all the trees in which the koalas live and then there isn't enough food for them so we claim they are over populated and kill them. Perhaps it is not so much the fact there are too many animals but that their territory is shrinking.

[rionn214]

THIS IS MADNESS!! j/k

yes its outrageous. what do you think of people who lived in barren places which has lesser vegetation? leave them to die? obviously they can't plant or produce food abundantly for a whole country. also its outrageous not to eat meat for people with strong allergic reactions to cellulose.

the fact that we got here today and the fact that we survived in different places is because of meat. i can understand the vegan ideas, but they're jst ideas and i find it not practical.

[rionn214]

meat is part of our survival, its a fact. maybe if we all live in a well vegetated place and that there are no more typhoons or storms that will ruin the crops... then I'll consider eating vegetables only.

I can imagine:

"rule: condemn humans who kill animals and eat them, eat vegetables only!"

"rule: go find your own way of producing food. just don't eat animals!"

*people on the desert/snowy areas*: what!?

[rionn214]

"we are responsible for the death of less plants as well as less animals."

yes we are. but not eating meat at all isn't the answer.

so you agree to hunting, isn't that animal abuse? and isn't that hypocritical? now, imagine if pigs/cows/chicken are released. either they die out because they can't live in the wild anymore or they go rampant and populate just like the deers.

(don't take this as offensive, its been a long comment. I like your views but I just want to know.)

[TheVeganicWitch]

I think i've answered your questions already, I couldn't really say more without repeating myself but here goes:

I approve of hunting and meat eating ONLY for people who cannot live any other way. It's not hypocritical, to think anything else would be speciesist. Afterall humans agree it is ok to kill other humans in situations where survival is at stake, it is only equal.

However, I (and I am assuming you) are not in that situation. For us I do believe "not eating meat at all" is the...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...answer. People always like to take the question outside their own lives to hypothetical or distant examples, if they feel veganism does not answer those examples they declare it totally impractical. However, the only situation you should compare veganism to is your own if you want to know if it is an option for you.

I personally believe I have now answered every question you could ask on this topic, you just have to draw my ideas to their logical conclusion.

[TheVeganicWitch]

BTW, don't worry about the long comments and thanks for being respectful and polite whilst expressing your views. I really appreciate it :-)

[rionn214]

"People always like to take the question outside their own lives to hypothetical or distant examples, if they feel veganism does not answer those examples they declare it totally impractical."

actually, it goes both ways. so in the end you're saying, "to each his own"?

yes it is hypocritical, because you turn the other way when you are permitting something that are against your principles. and that is "protect the animals".

if its just eating to survive, i too have no qualms about it.

[TheVeganicWitch]

"actually, it goes both ways. so in the end you're saying, "to each his own"?"

Well yes and no, I'm talking about ethics, and using the common framework of 'least harm' whilst allowing for situational variations. It would make no sense at all to judge an Inuit (or other group forced to eat meat) the same as I would myself if we do not have access to the same choices. By the same token it would make no sense to reverse that and say "well if the Inuit cannot be vegan then neither should I"...

[TheVeganicWitch]

We have to make ethical choices based on our own situation. For instance, whether you are a millionaire or a pauper should be factor in whether you give to a charity and how much you give - the millionaire has options in that situation that are simply not open to the pauper due to an objectively measurable difference in resources. May not be the best example but I just woke up and its all that comes to mind LOL

[Ornus]

VERY good points. This video should have MUCH more views.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Thank you :-)

Send it around and maybe it will ;-p LOL Just being cheeky.

[Terrabithian]

Great video! God job

[Baratgab]

Regarding the first argument, there is a reply that uses the meat-eaters own ideology against themselves. Namely that the whole reason for our own moral priority is that we have higher degree of psychical/mental complexity. Consequently, the only morally self-consistent attitude is to eat as low on the food chain as we can. :o)

And of course the scientific consensus is that plants lacks central nervous system, thus have no consciousness; they function, but have no entity who could suffer.

[MysteryAC]

The point is, healthy or not, cruel or free, I can't be picky about what I eat in my life. I'm not dead, so chances are my omnivore lifestyle of greens AND meats hasn't killed me in a horrible way. And considering the fact that I can't find anyplace nearby that sells good organic foods without being ridiculously overpriced means I'd have to go broke to go vegan.

Again, I'm sorry. But sometimes veganism isn't the answer. Especially for me. (end post)

[MysteryAC]

Oh, and about deforestation, it would be a good idea to slow down on it, but it's gonna happen eventually when humanity overpopulates. So we'd need a better solution than to simply go vegan.

[MysteryAC]

They try to claim that what they do doesn't harm a single animal, and they thus think they're superior, which really stirs up some hateful anti-meat eater sentiment. I know. I've been on their forums out of curiosity and I've seen the hatred these people have.

The fact of the matter is that they blatantly lie to me and the general populous and I can't ever trust them. And if so many vegans support them, then how can I trust any vegetarian/vegans?

(continued)

[MysteryAC]

(continued from last post)

... there is something I simply will never like. And that is the consensus of PETA oriented vegans and ALF related vegans and people who support them. They are a despicable group which makes me feel horrible towards vegans. Probably the whole reason behind this is because they advertise their lives as cruelty free. They don't say what you're saying. (continued)

[MysteryAC]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept vegetarianism or veganism into my life.

I listened to the entire video from start to finish, and you made some good points. We do all live lives that are cruel to an extent towards animals and that we should do our best to minimalize the pain we cause. This I agree with, among many of your other points.

HOWEVER, (continued on next post)

[StarWomb]

Thank you so much. I never really knew what to say when people would bring up plant life. I would just say "At least I'm making a difference what are you doing?" Ofcourse they had nothing to say. So thanks, now I have a better explanation. To be honest I never really thought about the field mice. I wonder how the buddhist harvest there gardens. I'll have to look into that. Well anyway love your channel : )

[TheVeganicWitch]

Thank you!!!!

If you farm on a smaller scale and harvest by hand you would have no problems with rodent death. You still have to work out what to do with bugs, perhaps they pick them out of their vegetables by hand?

[TangerineTangerine]

i doubt that 100% anything is possible, but that's not the point. We humans have a moral duty to do what is in our power to live peacefully & with the least possible damage, we can't go beyond that- Ppl who split hairs & raise these arguments ("vegans kill plants", "what about the field mice" etc) use it simply as a self-defense act & couldn't care less about the plants or the mice. if they DID care- they'd go vegan & save more plants & animals- like u pointed out in the clip. it's a duh.

[TheVeganicWitch]

The definsiveness is horrible. It prompts people to attack you without provokation. I am yet to tell anyone at my new work I am vegan, I just say no when they offer me food. They probably think I'm a health nut or have an eating disorder. I just really don't want to sit though them all getting together and justifying their choices so they can feel better and move on with life without thinking about what they are doing. One of my coworkers is a sheep farmer, I can tell it will not go down well.

[OneAnnoyedVegan]

I am glad I saw this video because the other one was deleted before I could watch it. Thank you friend.

[TheVeganicWitch]

No probs :-)

[TrueRedAngel]

That's why instead of referring to veganism as a "cruelty-free" lifestyle --- I refer to it as "reducing my footprint on the Force".

Thereby acknowledging that no lifestyle is 100% cruelty-free -- but veganism is as close as it gets.

[TheVeganicWitch]

You could also so say "reducing your cruelty footprint" :-)

It's unfortunate but even if you live the lifestyle with the least cruelty and grow all your own organic veg what do you do with the bugs living inside your cabbage or cauliflower, soak them out or accidentally eat them? My veggie garden isn't producing yet so I haven't had to make this choice but it's an example of how 100% cruelty free is impossible.

[porolita22]

Yay! I finally watched it :-)

This is very helpful, I am actually doing a similar one for my Spanish channel. It just gets so annoying to hear that "plant rights" argument LOL

[TheVeganicWitch]

That would be awesome :-)

[Cig187]

Thank you for the video.

Your way of thinking is as objective as it could be. I can't say that i'm vegan too, because i wear some leather shoes and etc.;) Though, my nutrition is 100% vegan.

Subscribed;)

[TheVeganicWitch]

Could be you are in the transitional period and you will gradually replace the leather. If that is the case you still count as vegan :-)

[porolita22]

I CANNOT watch the video. It doesn't load :'(

I favorited it and will watch it later.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Ah youtube bugs, you gotta love them :-/

[GeniusRickyD]

Wow. This was an excellent, very well constructed video. Solid logical arguments, facts to back up the arguments, references in the sidebar, and a little extra vigor at the end. ;) Seriously, well done.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Why thank you :-)

[Imsocool1004]

very well put video

[stephjuhler999]

Excellent video! You've made some very good points.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Cheers :-)

[MizzY0uTub3]

very interesting video! I had actually did an article on this as well! You did a much better job! haha!

[TheVeganicWitch]

Thank you :-)

[shegavemearainbow]

gardening at home too.

mono cultures and fields of the same type of plant also isn't as effective for larger yields of food.

arsia.toscana..it/petizione/do­cuments/clima/CLIMA_ING.pdf

[TheVeganicWitch]

No it isn't, i'm learning about all this at the moment while I set up my own home garden. I'm going for more of a permaculture mixed crop system, companion planting, ornamentals mixed with vegetables etc. It reduces crop damage from insects and can improve plant growth. No suprise really, its how plants were always intended to grow, all mixed together not in straight lines :)

[NaomiClareNL]

I hope you will do a video about that too.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I will when there is something in the garden good enough to show on video and I have a new camera which doesn't make my computer crash every two minutes whilst uploading LOL

[kpharloff]

On your nature on the exists of the nature of things: Aristotle: Book II contains his scientific determination of the nature of the soul. By dividing substance into its three meanings, namely, matter, form, and what is composed of both, he shows that the soul must be the first actuality of a naturally organised body. This is its form or essence. It cannot be matter because the soul is that in virtue of which things have life, and matter is only being in potency.

[kpharloff]

(2) All animals have, in addition to the nutritive power, sense-perception, and thus they all have at least the sense of touch, which he argues is presupposed by all other senses, and the ability to feel pleasure and pain, which is the simplest kind of perception. If they can feel pleasure and pain they also have desire. Some animals in addition have other senses.......so people have lost he idea of what things are and what they contain.

[kpharloff]

Sorry for the long post---my point being--all things contain an essence...and a "soul" or "essence" but animals or humans contain a higher level of "personal force" as you say. Plants, rocks, and the elements, if you dissect the, on a biochemical level contain this energy but not like animal or human. Dissect the word animal and one shall understand. Nice post. Keep up your good work! (I love philosophy so I shall always post with philosophers).

[TheVeganicWitch]

I love philosophy too :-)

[shegavemearainbow]

communities really could demand for certain % of neighborhoods or every certain amount of blocks even in downtown areas of larger cites- to be designated for cooperative gardens or community gardens- this would reduce the amount of larger than insect animals getting killed during harvesting, but for insects, unfortunately that is just part of some of their lives.

even gardens atop buildings. sidewalk raised beds.

They would be small enough too so crop machines wouldn't have to be used.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I couldn't agree more, apparently a regular sized family can be subsistent on a plot of land 10mx10m and that is the route I am taking myself for various reasons. I would love to see more programs set up for people in urban areas so they can have access to land to grow food if they wish, I feel it should be a basic human right. Moving in this direction would have many positive benefits on the environment. However, as most people don't have access to even a backyard anymore veganism is the best..

[TheVeganicWitch]

...they can do.

Thank you for your comment, I'm with you all the way :-)