Covered open throat white sound history of confusion p1

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Professor, what do you mean about "Caruso's method of voice production" Chapter XI, third principle that says "Breath is an indispensable factor in voice production, but it is not the essential power which develops voice as it is taught today. On the contrary, the function of singing develops the breathing apparatus and its power, just as any psysiological function develops the organ from which it takes origin, Therefore, singing develops breathing, not breathing, singing. "

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent90 "Breath is an indispensable factor in voice production, but it is not the essential power ..."

who wrote this quite ridiculous statement?

Breathing is as essential to singing as breathing to life itself.

As for learning how to sing, breathing technique developes along with voice.

what book are you quoting?

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru The book is "Caruso's method of voice production", in if we put that statement on the side, it is very interesting book. Google it and the second or third result is the entire online book for free. Btw i sent you an e mail on yahoo and if you can respond i would be grateful!

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent90 Thank you for sending me the book. It's indeed very intresting, though I disagree with some analysis made there:) Especialy when I compare Caruso's own "How to sing" and Salvatore Fucito's book.

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Oh, i didnt knew that there is his own book and that of S.Fucito, I will try to find them right away. Thanks! And now to continue watching your vids! :)

[phantominhell]

@Dirigent90 music is an art and is subjetive, thats why there is some people that arent prepared with tecnics, but are sucessfull, obviously in other music genres, PD: sorry for my english

[Dirigent90]

Just for record: Caruso had polyps on vocal chords! His technique was not so good, he had talent and natural position for high notes that is why he sounded so good. Sorry for bad English.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent901. for the recorrd:) : Caruso did not have natural high notes at the begining; he mastered them later.

Caruso never forsed(at least in records), had one registral way(appoggio). You, sir, assuming that since he had polyps on vocal cords he had bad technique? that is a strangest connection I've ever heard.

Caruso's technique by many professional opera singers even nowadays is considered as perfect(unreachable) Polyps:he smoke sigars and drank wine. You are not a singer...TBC

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent90 2. You are not a singer, I assume. You read articles, don't you. I'd advise you to listen to Caruso and put stupid books on the shelf, otherwise you will never form your true opinion

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Yes i am a singer but when i ask question you dont answer me so i need to post something like this so you can answer. ;) I am learning bel canto in a country you probably didnt heard for, so this is the only way i can communicate with you so i have questions because i dont know how to sing high notes and i am a tenor, very famous tenor told me so but he also lives in a different country. My question is can you help me?

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent90 I'm trying my best to help students like you, that's why I post free lessons and theory, 67 free videos. But learning voice is very particular. Teacher has to hear and see what his student is doing, otherwise it will end up as a theory without foundation. If you are not advance level, stop reading books and get yourself a good voice teacher

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Ok ill watch all of your videos, and ill try to understand you but, i watched a couple of your videos and didnt found practical example of how to feel i diaphragm, because there are stomach muscles and other feelings inside a stomach and i cant decide witch are good and witch are not, perhaps you can talk about all types of tensions! Maybe you already explained practical how to really feel a diaphragm but i didnt watched that video. Thank you!

[Dirigent90]

@TenelliVoiceGuru I read a great book written by Carusos friend, he sad that one to obtain full range he must relax soft palate, tongue and root of the tongue, but nobody says anything about how to relax, and some relax technique. I am sure that my biggest problem is that i push and dont relax.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Dirigent90 "Relax" is one of the confusive suggestion. Relax is always relative. Yoga-man can relax standing on his head and relax but some may break their neck doing so.

When you are a professional singer with great technique, you feel quete relaxed because muscles performing that action are so strong that singer takes it for a relaxation.

When a teacher suggests relaxation he is giving you a future prospect rather then now and that is confusing because he mixes his sensations with a novice

[prog112]

Yeah, about that brightness. There are some videos on youtube when he is singing in home with piano and he really sounds bright. But then if I play some Otello clips from movies he sounds very dark and deep. It's kinda weird.

[prog112]

Maestro Tenelli, do you know something about technique that was used by Del Monaco? I've read some articles stating he used something almost depressed larynx (so called woofy in your case?). Is it truth?

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@prog112 Del Monaco did not have a woofy voice at all:) He was one of the loudest n brightest tenors at that time. Depressed larinx is a term that is used loosingly by some singers to discrbe low position of the larinx. In fact, it's position is determined by the nature of particular voices, e.g. what is depressed for some means correct for others. Del Monaco studied with Arturo Melocchi, Corelli also considered Melocchi as his maestro, Giacomini went through the same school, but they are all d

[sopranofishy]

Dear Mr Tenelli,

I would recommend that you do a little more research on Gigli's technique. A detailed explanation - by Gigli himself - can be found in E Herbert Caesari's 'The Voice of the Mind' - probably the only book written on singing technique that's worth bothering about. Gigli ALWAYS modified his vowels (as Caruso correctly espoused). He also NEVER mentioned support or pasaggio. Also, 'covered' sound and vowel modification are two entirely different things.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@sopranofishy 1. thank you for an advice, but I read Gigli`s book and heard what was he saying and first of all I know the way he sang. Who says that covering and vowel modification are not the same thing?

Gigli clearly stated that he doesn't cover(modify) and he didn't in most of his records

Cover is a confused term because depending on the school it means different thing(some mean rounding voice at passaggio) some mean other things.

Since you seemed to be an expert in covering... TBC

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@TenelliVoiceGuru 2. C. since you are te expert in covering and modification, please enlighten and put your definitions here.

and if you'd like me to respond to you please give me your name and occcupation

[griffithafrank]

Just a question. Why did you put reverb on your demonstrations?

[Arfat]

with the white sound thing, what i hear is you changing the vowel to a more bright sounding ah, and so it kinda tightens up the throat. If you keep the vowel the same as you go up and you still place it in the head, is that the same as "open throat" ??? it's not really darkening the sound like caruso said.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@Arfat Open Throat is simply a yawn position supported by appogio(action of dynamic diapgragm ballance). The deeper the yawn the darker the sound, but have in mind that one has not to change this natural placement once it's found.

changing throat(larinx position) always brings less consistant sound.

If you are a young tenor, definatly sound will be brighter, but still to be consistant within this brighter timbre, one has to remain stable larinx position

[Arfat]

@TenelliVoiceGuru you didn't answer my question, but i have another. If your larynx is naturally in the middle of your neck, and you sing always with it in the middle or a tiny bit lower because it's easy, does that mean you are using open throat technique? On the thing with pavarotti, he uses what you call open throat technique, but through my experimentation, what he calls covering, i call "placing" the sound in the head (chest voice of course), and it's like he says, very easy that way.

[karifrid]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Did Corelli not talk about "floating larinx position" ?(He could make diminuendo on B flat in Celeste Aida and many other arias....)

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

@karifrid yes he did, he also said about lowering his larinx on passagio notes, to my understanding that was rather a Corelli's sensation then a real movement, Corelli with all his greatness, amazing voice and ease of singing was critizised for his scooping technick(though many great Italian tenors were scoopers, like Caruso, Gigli etc), scooping is a temporary swich of the larinx posision, but only temporary

[karifrid]

@TenelliVoiceGuru Thank you Maestro Tenelli. I do not like the "scooping" of them,or others.I must say your voice sounds a bit like Carusos. "Dark and poverfull". I am still trying to hold my larynx still,and low.Not wery low though,to loose my higest notes.I can sing C and C sharp on conserts,(Live). Caruso and Corelli are not singing it "live" wery often...(Also Scipa,Tucker,Del Monaco,Melkior and Domingo).

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

as for Pavarotti explanation:

I don't hear a passagio, I hear one register only. Chiaro-Scuro or chest-head resonances were present from low to high, it means that there was only one register and only one placement called natural placement.

There will be always a sensation that passagio or higher notes are somewhat darker because we don't expect that "round" sound when we speak higher.

[steakopera]

As you have mentioned there is no right or wrong whether you use appogio,covered or placement technique. I feel appogio technique can eliminate gray areas and uncertain technical myth.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

for covered sound confusions.

Dark sound=covered sound for some singers and teachers but there are nuances

if one maintains dark sound throughout whole range that's open throat(Caruso)

if one darkens the sound only at passagio range that's covering.

when working with the teacher, student should be aware of those confusions and ask teacher to clearly tsate what s(h)e means exactly by any vocal term s(h)e is using, otherwise it's talking Allien language pretending it is English

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

voice treachers along with some singers use those words traditionaly, without clear understanding of their meaning, without examining them. So these terms get attached to the personal sensations of a particular singer and that's where confusion starts whenever this singers is trying to explain things.

If u notice majority of teachers avoide explaining words(terms) they themselves use so frequently. They understand that words are indeed limited to discribe things and like in religious...tbc

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

...like almost religious practicies make you believe in what they are saying witout questioning. That's also a tradition and over centuries, unfurtunatly, this tradition bring more and more confusion.

[steakopera]

There are few other terms used by teachers. Back space,half yawn position, raise soft palate.

[reynaldomonterrey]

@TenelliVoiceGuru TO MY UNDERSTANDING,COVER SOUND IS AN OPTIONAL VOWEL MODIFICATION APPLIED BY THE SINGERS CHOICE OF STYLE, USING AS SUPPORT APPOGGIO.

NOW COVER SOUND TECHNIQUE,IS THE TECHNIQUE THAT TRULY RELIES IN VOWEL MODIFICATION TO OVERCOME THE PASSAGGIO,NOT NECESSARY WITH APPOGGIO,BUT OPTIONAL,LIKE MASTER PAVAROTTI INDEED ,HE DID NOT NEED TO COVER CAUSE HE WAS SUPPORTING USING APPOGGIO REALLY!!!

[steakopera]

Another traditional term of passagio approach is to use "closed vowel" not opened. This term is basically same as covered sound. With opened throat, that is. Some students are confused with this teaching. Relaxed opened throat is essential for classical singing but the degree of openness varies by individual. I'd seen some singers who could not move their larynx. How is this possible? because larynx is connected to tongue muscles.

[steakopera]

It's coincident you mention "Pavarotti coverd sound" which I commented on your P2 video because I'd watched P2 prior to P1. Not to create an argument but to my ear Pav covered in that masterclass demonstration. I could hear the distinction between him from Caruso,Bjorling,Gigli and even Wunderlich. These tenors use appogio technique but Pav uses both coverd and appogio in my opinion. Another exceptional case is Corelli.

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

well, even Great Caruso in his early recordings uses "covering" but never placement.

Stable larinx provides stable ambiance therefore consistant sound

Ballanced support(appogio) makes sure that Bernulli effect(free unforced phonation) works providing neccesary air compression therefore larinx stays in that position also unforced and unmoved.

One can have a consistant voice(stable larinx) and still force if s(h)e doesn't know how to lean upon(appogiare)

[TenelliVoiceGuru]

But I don't hear Pavarotti was modifying, turning "A" in to "O", he just kept the darkness throughout.

Corelli masterfully combines appogio and a little bit of placement, but it also depends on the period of his career.

Gigli is the most talanted and open minded singer among them who dared to question overused and confused vocal suggestion and terms.

He opened my mind that covering is just an invention of mind and tradition.

Caruso was doing the right things but was confused explaining them