Krashen and language acquisition

[VanXIInX]

Ich werden nicht schreiben um die du.

[VanXIInX]

Ich kann diese video setzen in meine video.

[VanXIInX]

There are victorys of spirit and soul, sometimes even when you lose you win!

[ignac27]

Wie lange brauchs du eine Sprache zu erlernen!1 2 oder 3 Jahre!????

[MissLadyboy007]

I have a good memory for verbs and I can conjugate verbs very easily including obscure verbs. I don't mention this to boast it is just the way my mind works. However, I do agree that vocabulary is MORE important that grammar. I have studied Italian on and off for some time and while I am a master of all the tenses. I can only string together a 4 or 5 word sentence because my vocabulary is so limited. Learning nouns and adjectives is the best way to start increasing your vocabulary.

[Contextcatcher]

Fine vid!

"Every complete unknown language is a kind of acoustic mask; as soon one learns it, it becomes a face, understandable and soon familiar".

Quote from Elias Canetti, Nobel prize winner for Literature. He was Bulgarian, lived long time in England but wrote in German language. As novel and play writer he used "acoustic masks" to create characters. Every person had a special vocabulary and accent. Drama (anxiety) begins where masks take shape. Living language create new (strange) forms.

[tlovehater]

So my question to you Steven is, forget about the accent, is it possible to learn perfect grammar?? I don't care about having an accent, I care about the grammar, I want to know if I'll ever learn the grammar 100% and I'll be able to lead a normal life, I can cope with not having a natural accent. I see people that have been speaking english for like 20 years and still make mistakes, it's very offputting, it's like embarrassing, to see that that's where I'm going to end up

[lingosteve]

@tlovehater Possible but not likely. I do not strive for perfection but just constant improvement.

[tlovehater]

@lingosteve Then how do you explain Linus Torvalds, Joseph Conrad or Nouriel Roubini??

[lingosteve]

@tlovehater Some do achieve native like ability in writing and even speaking. but these are few, and I do not consider it a realistic goal, although something to strive for.

[verapamil07]

@tlovehater Check also Khatzumoto from "All Japanese All the Time".

[Aeux]

@tlovehater you already have a good level of english. if you are dead-set on getting "perfect" or native-level grammar, I'm sure you can do it provided you put forth the necessary effort. a good way would be to read some novels, and while reading pay special attention to how sentences are worded. read a novel per week or month, and you'll find that after 1-3 years you won't be making anymore grammar errors or at least you'll be making them with the same frequency as a native speaker would

[ChrisTheRockGod]

@tlovehater I've studied Language Acquisition at degree level, and studies show that it's easier and more common to acquire native-like syntactic representation that it is to acquire native-like phonology, although of course there are exceptions

[zzukizzz]

@tlovehater , what about those people who speak local dialects (which are sometimes very different from the standard variety of the country), but learn to speak the impeccable standard pronunciation when the need arises. Also, try and watch Al Jazeera English some day. Most journalists and news presenters working there are non-native speakers of English and I believe many of them grew up not in the UK. However, all of them speak with perfect British pronunciation. Everything is possible!

[tetranoob]

I am pleased i found this video, very interesting topic. I just read the ebook "from the outside in" By J. Marvin Brown. He had devised a language class in Bangkok called Automatic Language Growth which is very much what you are discussing here. There are about 100 ALG videos now posted on youtube for learning Thai. Well worth a look.

[brindlebriar]

Speaking of language, you keep saying that you "hardly recommend these books," which means that you do not recommend them, or that you can barely recommend them. I believe the word you are looking for is "heartily" meaning 'from the heart,' and pronounced heart-i-ly (3 syllables). By way of example, should you find this correction is unwelcome, I would be 'heartily sorry for having offended thee'. -cheers

[verapamil07]

@brindlebriar Fault finding personality ?

[pstandlee]

Hate to burst your bubble, but almost all of Krashen's Five Hypotheses a.k.a. MANIA (Monitor, Acquisition, Natural Order, Input, and Affective filter) have been largely and systematically refuted in Second Language Acquisition research. In the end Krashen's hypothesis were not sufficient to describe language acquisition and studies show that learning does take place, output is important if nor crucial, and input (comprehension) is not sufficient to measure proficiency. Read Swain, Ellis, Long...

[lingosteve]

@pstandlee Different hypotheses, different research conclusions, no refutation, and the controversy continues. I have read Swain and Ellis, and find that Krashen rings 80% true, and truer than most of what the rest of the "SLA community" has to say. Read my blog post on the subject today at The Linguist on Language.

[zzukizzz]

@pstandlee . This is not physics or chemistry. Things are not so easily "proved" or "disproved" in second language learning. For me personally, Krashen works and I am happy with that (no matter what various armchair theorists say). Of course, many of his more categorical statements may be open to discussion and even questioning but that doesn't change the fact that many of his ideas are extremely effective.

[pstandlee]

@zzukizzz No, you're right. Nothing is proven in second language acquisition, but I don't think "refute" means "proved" either. However, study and theories in cognitive and in socioculture theories counter Krashen's claim that comprehensible input is the only "necessary and sufficient" condition for language acquisition. Swain's Output Hypothesis (1985, 1995, 2005), Long's Interaction Hypothesis (1990), Nick Ellis Emergent grammar work (2005, 2006) all work on but move past Krashen's hypotheses.

[zzukizzz]

@pstandlee , well, these are just another theories which may be as much open to discussion and debate as Krashen's theory is. I agree that they may provide a useful alternative point of view and even have some merits "past Krashen's theory" as you put it. But for me, as a practical language learner and teacher, theories do not matter that much. As long as something works for me, I do not care what theorists say (many of whom may not even have learned a single foreign language in their lives)...

[pstandlee]

@zzukizzz I agree that if the concepts of Krashen's models work for you, in a particular context, under particular situations, with particular needs, that's great. We should never dissuade language learners from finding the strategies that work best for them. My problem is that Krashen's models cannot be generalized because to a singular path. Check Krashen's claims. Such generalizations unnecessarily confining. Thanks for an open and interesting discussion :)

[zzukizzz]

@pstandlee , By the way, I am a native speaker of Lithuanian and I have learned English relatively late in my life. The skill with which I am able to write and speak this language now (even though I must admit it's not perfect) is for the most part thanks to the "comprehensible input" I have received while reading and listening a lot (I do not have much chance to practice my "comprehensible output" in Lithuania) and definitely not due to the formal language lessons I had at school.

[AntonioAGoncalves]

@pstandlee Absolutely right. I would add Larsen-Freeman, and anything on "Language Development" (note, not "acquisition") by Halliday and any member of the sometimes called Sidney School. Steven's take on language acquisition is a practical demonstration of how dangerous a little learning can be. He has read half a dozen randomly picked books about nothing in particular and assesses everything based on his on personal "anecdotal" experience as a learner. Very scientific indeed!

[EnglishTeacherFred]

@pstandlee How many of those who supposedly refuted Krashen, have a stake in the status quo (consciously or unconsciously)? I taught English for about 7 years and it sucked. I started using Krashen's ideas a few years ago in my classroom and it was like night and day. Maybe you're one of those kinds of people who need a scientific study to 'prove' to you that an organic orange tastes better than an non-organic orange? Krashen is da bomb, no matter what the supposed 'experts' say.

[EnglishTeacherFred]

@pstandlee How many of those who supposedly refuted Krashen, have a stake in the status quo (consciously or unconsciously)? I taught English for about 7 years and it sucked, then I started using Krashen's ideas a few years ago in my classroom and it was like night and day. Maybe you're one of those kinds of people who need a scientific study to 'prove' to you that an organic orange tastes better than an non-organic orange? Krashen is da bomb, no matter what the supposed 'experts' say.

[MYERZ08]

The only true way to learn a new language effectively is to immerse yourself in it. I learnt and spoke 3 languages in ONE YEAR, FLUENT in all, when my family moved to South Africa when i was 9. We lived there for 3years until i was 12 and by the time we left i could speak Afrikans, French, Dutch and two native black languages... these are the languages my friends spoke in, i am 35 now and can speak only English again.

[27069614]

can you add the Romanian language in LingQ when you become good at speaking it

[foodlesnuff]

I agree with most of what you say, I was a fluent German speaker and took two routes to learn the grammar; the first route was grammar tables and rote learning rules, the second was learning sentence patterns. I absorbed the grammar through sentence patterns not the rules. I am now a passable Mandarin speaker and have not concerned myself with grammar at all. I have got lots of books on German and Chinese such as idioms and 3000 verbs and synonyms, all of which are totally useless

[callmemrmilkman]

Great video. A quick question Steve if you have the time to answer. How many hours a day/week do you spend on a single language(if you isolate that language from the other ones which you also study)?

[lingosteve]

@callmemrmilkman I usually only study one language at a time, and I spend about one hour or so a day, usually listening or reading.

[callmemrmilkman]

@lingosteve Thanks Steve. Great video's your a pleasure to listen to. Greetings from Ireland

[zzukizzz]

@lingosteve , Have you ever used the Pimsleur method? I have tried it on myself with a few languages and it was quite effective (even though admittedly it didn't bring me beyond the mere basics). But I still found it enormously useful.

[Codylangaugesblog]

I do believe that people unconsciously acquire a language. Even if they don't want to...if they are surrounded by it, they will learn things. I have heard of people who were imprisoned and learned a language because the prison guards spoke it. if you are around a language you will learn, you have no choice in the matter.

[thedoorisunlocked]

baloney. want to know the real secret to language learning? hard work. study, use, study, use etc. I have been a language teacher for 3 years and i've read many many books by people who try to invent new ways to learn and teach. all baloney. if you truly care and you want to learn and you study hard, you will learn. there are no easy answers.

[lingosteve]

@thedoorisunlocked no need to be so intolerant. Yes you need to work, but it is useful to work in an effective way. This, for me and many people, means a lot of listening reading and staying away from traditional instructional methods and classrooms.

[AkaoKiyotsu]

@thedoorisunlocked That is optimized for learning, not so much memorization. It is important, but not as important as you stress it, it is not the dominant feature of language learning and other parts of learning your language should be noted and applied..

[stealthgerm]

@thedoorisunlocked i notice children .in a bilingual setting[mine] the way described in this video is so much the way he said is the way to learn.if its body language[talking with hands] or speech .even the accent is learned[picked up]

[yooanoozarrmay]

@thedoorisunlocked listening and reading IS working at the language. and it works. learning lists or stuff from grammar books to begin with isn't the way to go. i've learnt norwegian without once going through any list or rule. i listened every single day for three years because i WANTED to listen. stevek is the best guy on youtube for language learning, in my opinion

[thedoorisunlocked]

@yooanoozarrmay thanks for proving my point. if you had studied hard for 2 months you would have been at the level you are now 2 years and 10 months ago.

[kchauncey]

@thedoorisunlocked - That might work for you, but what does a teacher do when faced with a classroom of immigrants who don't speak the language well, if at all, and who might not be motivated to work? It's crucial to get them engaged. I realize that language teachers like myself are more passionate about language, so we're naturally more motivated, but when it's time to teach this essential skill, you need to remember that your audience isn't necessarily going to see things your way.

[YouStoleMyTube]

@thedoorisunlocked How come then it takes years to learn basic grammar rules like conjugation and tenses when using traditional methods? Seriously...

[zzukizzz]

@thedoorisunlocked , all that you are saying here is just a destructive comment. Nothing positive. Of course, everyone agrees that one must work hard to learn a language. Of course there are no "miraculous pills". However, you can choose to "work hard" in an effective way which is fun and brings good results or you can "work hard" by trying old-fashioned medieval methods or (even worse) some vague theorizing. To dismiss all constructive proposals by just saying "work hard" is not saying much.

[verapamil07]

@thedoorisunlocked It seems to me that you have an emotional attachment to the word HARD! Have you ever heard of Khatzumoto and his way of learninr Japanese? Don't be so pretentious . I am a teacher! Oooo, man , language teacher . You know what is funny about that ? I am also a language teacher . I am teaching myself German language at the moment .

[Phineas1996]

I find singing songs makes them

easier to memorize, especially ones

in another language. See my favorites.

[lazarus0202]

By this I mean this seemed to be most of what he had going for him - an inspired theory nicely packaged and presented, full of holes, inspiring to those just starting out. Nice guy though.

[lingosteve]

Aside from your Olympian disdain for the man and his theories, and for people who subscribe to his view of language learning, what is your opinion of his theory. What are the holes that you refer to?

[nblumer]

I don't think you need to take Krashen as an "all or none" package. For some things he has been vindicated - others have been largely discarded. A big hole in his theory is dichotomous acquisition versus monitor demarcation which lead many teachers to assume production could come just as effectively without consious instruction. A follow up research of French Immersion in Canada clearly proved otherwise.

[lingosteve]

@nblumer Could you provide more info about the follow up research on French immersion in Canada. BTW this new set up for commenting here does not enable to me to see what I am typing. Does anyone else have the same experience?

[416guintee]

@nblumer well-said.



[lazarus0202]

Oh no-- no disdain at all. He's a great guy and an inspiring speaker. He's got some really fundamental problems-- one being his inclusion of Chomsky's Language Acquisition Device. He doesn't get the concept. The LAD was Chomsky's idea about L1 acquisition, in an initial state, not something that we possess throughout our lives.

[lazarus0202]

Plus this affective filter idea is so vague--what is it exactly? Can we test it? Folks with a mountain of work under their belts on affective factors/motivation/etc. are still scratching their heads over that one. Krashen himself has given up defending himself on some levels and has quietly inched away from the issues and onto other things.

[lazarus0202]

But one thing he deserves credit for is pretty much launching input studies--the field didn't exist before Swain and Gregg responded to Krashen. See M. Swain's 1995 paper on "forced output" in which he applies i+1 to language production as opposed to listening or reading.

[illasduck]

Maybe Chomsky's just a pedant?

[lazarus0202]

hmm??

[lazarus0202]

I attended a lecture of Krashen's about six years ago and something struck me as intriguing: that he had the following of a rock star and that the less experience with SLA audience members claimed to have had (there many new grad candidates there), the more likely they were to shower Krashen with adulation and ask him to autograph copies of his book.

[nblumer]

Chomsky was all about L1 and avoided L2 theory, research, discussion and pedagogy. Krashen doesn't refer to Universal Grammar (LAD) much - he doesnt know whether SLA involves the same LAD or a seperate memory based system. There was a lot of "Krashen bashin" in the 90s but I think much of the new Connectionist based research tends to support the role of healthy doses of meaningful interesting i + 1 input, although the idea that lanaguage acquisition is subconscious has been largely discarded.

[easyfindgirl]

You 'hardly' recommend this book?

[inf1nite]

hi lingosteve, I've been studying with some of classmates about your hypothesis, for my class "processes of second lenguage acqusition, I was wondering if you could answer about the kinds of inputs we have while leraning a second language

[skollbus]

I'm a Chilean university student preparing to become an English teacher.

I was wondering how could I motivate low self-steem students to encourage them to learn an L2?

[lingosteve]

Try to find out if there is anything that they are interested in listening to or reading about in English, and do not require them to produce the language. Just let them get used to it.

[skollbus]

Ok, thanks a lot. I'll put that into practice.

[templje]

I'm never sure how appreciated one feels for making their videos and sharing their experiences. We DO appreciate it, see you at LingQ, J

[cvegauk]

Very interesting! Thanks!

[trkrichardson]

i agree output is important for identifying gaps. and it gives us negative evidence and therefore understand that something we said is not right.

[anpheist]

Question: doesn't your need for attentiveness reinforce the monitor and affective filter?

We are immune to direct teaching against the natural order as you said so correction of grammatical or phonological mistakes does not seem productive but rather would discourage the student and enforce any fears she/he has about attempting the second language.

[lingosteve]

In theory yes, but i find that discovering mistakes, whether on my own, or via correction can help me notice things that I otherwise would not notice. Correction does not correct, but it does identify gaps. I prefer correction in writing, even after a discussion, the way we do it a LingQ ( written report with correct phrases that I save and study) or a report on my written mistakes.

It is important not to fear mistakes. Mistakes are inevitable and necessary, and constantly reocurring.

[anpheist]

My understanding is that advocates of Krashen advocate modeling correct language rather than

correcting mistakes. Doesn't it lessen the effect of the comprehensible input if we revert to grammatical correction?

Thanks for this very clear summary of Krashen's theory. I keep coming back to your video.

[lingosteve]

In theory yes, but I find a certain amount of correction, a small amount, and in writing, and if integrating with input activities, as we do at LingQ where corrections are simply study as more language to model on, in this way it helps make us more attentive.

[Goonersmacedonia]

No, no, no, children were never attentive and still have succeeded in their first language!?? We are grown people and we can't speak or write with just 2,3 or 5000 known words, they are only useful for child talk, and we don't like to talk like children, so naturally there will be gaps, but why don't you first try to go to the end and learn some 12000 words (1 year college student level) and than try to find "gaps". Krashen Rules!!!

[lingosteve]

I am a strong believer in vocabulary over grammar. I have spent over 2 years acquiring a huge Russian vocabulary, yet there are gaps, and I am working on that through input.

But I want to speak more accurately. I find that my attentiveness efforts, whether reviewing words and phrases in flash cards, or being corrected and getting the correct phrase in my report from our LingQ tutor, or skimming over grammar, this helps me notice things, the dative feminine plural or whatever. Hence my video.

[AstAMoore]

Thank you for the video. Very informative! I also believe (and, thus, disagree with Krashen) that talking every day helps improve your language skills. If nothing else, it improves your fluency, and just like with any other physical activity, muscle memory is a huge factor here.

P.S. I can help you with your Russian, if you're interested. Send me a message.

[trkrichardson]

i find input is good for learning grammar but primarily a focus on vocab in my own personal study. i think there's not enough teaching and learning resources to teach advanced grammar because i've personally found no language programs ever support student in producing advanced or more complex grammar that is more natural like in L1. or in other words it's difficult to speak to the capacity like one does in L1 in terms of grammar but vocab is easy to learn so inpu is important for grammar dvlpmt

[lingosteve]

That would be great. I am going to be more active in radio interviews in the US over the next month or so. I would like to do the same in other countries as well. I will talk about the need for a more natural approach to language learning, one that makes it fun and more effective, and which is more in line with how the brain actually learns. The traditional approach just discourages a lot of people. The world is full of potential multi-language speakers!

[stujaystujay]

Let me have a look see. Maybe we could find a way to synergise our stuff.

[stujaystujay]

For me, the whole thing never started as a competition to learn as many languages as I could. It was just a passion that organically turned into different levels of skill. I personally hate 'listing' languages one knows - where do you draw the line? It's all a continuous process. I have your blog feed coming straight into my google reader, so get your up dates hot off the press! Would love to team up with you some day on a project like that.

[lingosteve]

It is extremely important for us at LingQ to increase traffic to our site. Obviously that is one of my main reasons for maintaining my blog and doing these videos, other than that I enjoy doing it. I notice that Livemocha has much more traffic than we do, and I wonder how they achieved it. Any ideas?

[stujaystujay]

Great stuff Steve.

I love reading grammars and any other book on the target language that I'm learning... but it's usually as a briefing / debriefing tool to compare against what's really met in the field.

Subconsciously 'ferment' like you said and eventually 'gel'.

I was fortunate enough to have met Stephen Krashen a few months ago. A lot of what he said gave me some new clarity on how I actually learn.

The main thing is having FUN, positive experiences with the langauge.

[lingosteve]

Thanks for dropping by. I have long admired your videos and fluency in so many languages from different language families. You and I are not afraid to use the languages, and to enjoy them. There will always be those who are able to find fault. "You do not sound native" or whatever. They just do not get it. Good for you. Drop by my blog when you have the time. Maybe we could have a skype chat and talk about our favourite subject and record it as a podcast.

Steve

[rsherfan]

I'm glad I viewed this video. With the xmas break and all, I haven't been on LingQ much... but for some reason (cited in your video) my French is leaps and bounds better... for no apparent reason other than the, erm, "fermentation" I guess. Its been busy rewiring itself while I have been having fun!!!

[slatterypod]

Quick tip: before stopping the recording, wait a moment so the computer has a chance to encode and save the last thing you said.

[somethingsmatter]

Dear Steve,

I just went to the lingq website and i think it is brilliant. I think it's great how there is so much free stuff on it, I think i will go out and buy some lessons later on, but it really makes it interesting and easy to learn. Keep on making videos.

[mediteight]

Hmm - this does sound like a lot of useful common sense.

I'd be interested to hear what people think of various courses with regards to Krashen's ideas (including lingQ of course)...

[yahags]

Another awesome video!

These rules apply to most languages but what about chinese and japanese. There's no "natural" way of memorizing thousands of characters as far as I'm aware.

[lingosteve]

Of course you have to put the effort into learning a new writing system. The point is that you do not need explicit grammar explanation. That was my experience in Japanese, Chinese, Russian and Korean.

[yahags]

How did you learn chinese and japanese characters? I've spent 7 years on this task and still don't know even 50% of 常用漢字. :(

[Veganomante]

I'm learning kanji using Heisig's Remembering The Kanji. In two weeks I've learnt 200.

Then I recomend you use a SRS (spaced repetition system) to pick up sentences (also use it for the kanji) and learn their readings in context.

I strongly suggest you visit alljapaneseallthetime[dot]com

[orangelixir]

Yes. But talking to yourself is pointless unless what you're saying is perfect. However talking to a person who will correct you is not. It will help you to find the gaps that you talk about. In language learning, perfect practice makes perfect.

[paulinobrener]

English question from your info.

"Stephen Krashen make more"

shouldn't it be "makes"

thanks for talking about Krashen

[orangelixir]

Yes, it must be a typo

[paulinobrener]

nice video, i love Krashen's work.

have you ever heard of Waldorf education and teaching foreign languages in Waldorf schools?

[lingosteve]

I am not familiar with Waldorf education or schools.

[zimmermann10]

Thanks so much.I always wait with anxiety your tips!