Suffering? What about Evil?

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

I disagree that man wasn't made to love God. I also disagree with the choice of words "set up" to fail - it implies that God was hoping we would.

The Eden account points to the fact that God had intended all along to make us sons and daughters not just friends, and certainly not enemies. If that was His goal then how can you accuse Him of a setup? If anything He carried our success right from the inception of Adam's sin as the remedy for it was given no sooner than it happened.

[TheEdge012]

Not sure if this is for Kevin or me but I will respond anyway. "Set up" is not a choice in words that I would use.  However, what I will concede is that God allowed a system by which failure (The Fall) was an option. Had He not, we wouldn't have really had free will. I believe as you do about His love, how we were made, and His motives for this particular system.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

I see. You're using the word failure as a euphemism for "the fall". I have no problem with that, I would just hate to see you tripped up in the future on the semantics.

Free will a tricky debate.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

I believe in free will but I also think there is only so far a child can stray before his father comes to get him. God removed the tree of life post-fall, ensuring that the consequences of Adam's choice would not be eternal. i.e., the consequence remained but true failure was never in the plan. If God is the author and finisher of our faith then failure isn't even an option. Of course the adversary can create a sticky argument here can't he? and he will if you let him.. so beware, brother.

[TheEdge012]

Without getting into any Calvinist/Arminian issues...I agree with your statements and appreciate the advice.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

You got it.

[ProLifeKevin]

If there's evil, it's only because Yahweh set everyone up to fail in the first place.

[TheEdge012]

You might be suprised that I agree with you for the most part. God granted us free will. In order for that to be a reality there had to be a choice. If God's ways are good and holy, the only real alterate choices are of the evil and bad variety, right? I don't blame Him that we exercised the free will He gave us by saying He set us up...but I do agree that His system did allow for us to fail...and we did.

[ProLifeKevin]

1. How is it fair to punish billions for the actions of two?

2. Are you conceding that we won't have any free will in heaven?

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

@ProLifeKevin

How do you conclude that there will be no free will in heaven because there is free will on Earth? The angels have free will - some chose obedience, some rebellion.

[ProLifeKevin]

So will some in heaven end up in hell? If so, will some in hell be able to choose to go to heaven?

[TheEdge012]

There are some that believe we may have some ability post-death to still choose God but I personally don't see that supported by Scripture. Though free will still exists it is my understanding that at an appointed time we are judged for our decisions.

[SpeakaDaEnglish]

Who's will are you referring to here?  God's or man's? Are you referring to fallen man or sanctified man? It wouldn't make much sense for a regenerated man to choose hell over heaven even if he could.

[TheEdge012]

Not a problem...I just got to a point where I will be able to watch your reply today. I took a long weekend off, so forgive the delay in watching/responding.

[checotahkid]

Very well said. I come to you with a scripture from the " Old " Covenant Job 1: 6-23. Isn't ironic how some people use scripture to benefit their own beliefs? We need both the " Old Covenant as well as the "New" Covenant to become fulfilled Christians.

[Larsinger58]

Very interesting. I enjoyed this.

Thank you.

[grumpychuck]

Can you put up a link? I don't know who you're talking to.

[TheEdge012]

I attached it to his video but I think its still pending his approval. Until then, I have now linked you in the sidebar description.

Long time, no chat Chuck. How are you doing?

[grumpychuck]

I'm hanging in there...it's been a looong year!

[Gentle135]

Anyone who rejects Christianity but accepts God needs to take a hard look at the evidence for the resurrection.

[TheEdge012]

Jordan is about as informed and well researched as they come so I would be suprised if he has not thoroughly looked at the resurrection evidence and analysis. What I don't understand is how I see it to be so compelling yet he does not. But then...that's why we are chatting about all of this.

[Gentle135]

Perhaps he thinks that though God may exist he would never interact with humanity or cause miracles? Or is hung up on something else.