I disagree I think there are many examples in history and in the future that a comparable to the holocaust. Concentration camps a big feature of the holocaust invented by the British during the boer war. Diseased blankets sold to the Indians in the USA just to point your mind into what you need to look at. What really pisses me off are people that think that the treatment of the Jews had something to do with the second world war. I am just saying the world really is a nasty nasty place.
Science is beginning to produce evidence of an immortal soul as information splattered across the membrane that is our universe. Like matter and energy, information is neither created or destroyed, making reincarnation the most likely explanation of life. The reason we see this in human beings is that the brain acts as the only kind of supercomputers so far capable of storing this kind of information. So once the brain reaches a certain size, a soul is present so abortion does become murder.
@DepressedAnnnie Should we allow it? You bet because if a child is really that badly unwanted, their quality of life drops bellow the theoretical sanctity of it.
What can you expect from the flat earth debating society?
If you entertain the thought, and self defeating hope, that propaganda brainwashed nincompoops , let alone ultra conservative religious vegetables, can grasp any concept outside their "up from above fairy tale logic". Boy, are you up for a rude awakening.
@agencyman1 I am sorry but the last i check there are quite a few children who don't get adopted...so yea...As i have Said pro choice.. everyone has their own beleifs and i beleive that if she can't afford to have it then yea.. it's her right..Medical bills are expensive and not all pregnant women get insurance from the government to afford it... the only way i got mine is i had 3 miscarriges prior to having my son...
Homicide can be considered justifiable when protecting life or property, but, where do we draw the line? There are times when the life of the mother could be in jeopardy while pregnant, and the unborn child takes property, namely nutrients, while inside the mother's body. However, until children emancipate themselves, it's conceivable they could be considered thieves should parents decide to no longer provide for them. The responsibility for inducing abortions falls only to the conscious actors.
@agencyman1 Sorry, I do see that you've answered. Well, I gotta tell you, I'm not impressed by anyone who makes the "pro-life" argument, but can justify killing people for other reasons. It's contradictory at its core. Either all human life has worth of or it doesn't. That should not be a position to equivocate.
@agencyman1 People get their fate decided for them all the time by bombs dropping from the sky, or lack of medical resources, so why the big exception here?
Had your parents decided to abort you, you would have never had the brain development to care, so the argument is completely facile.
You never did answer the question, Do you support the death penalty? Do you support war? Are you adopting unwanted children, or is this morality of yours strictly the armchair variety?
@moopism I'm against the death penalty, I'm against war, I have not adopted anyone but I have volunteered with the Boy Scouts of America and I have helped out with my local High School Wrestling Team. Now, stop attacking the weak of us; who do not have the courage to do what is right and come talk peace with a man like me. So I ask you were you ever a fetus? or a Zygote? The unique DNA that makes you the person you are today was created at conception. Self awareness is an irrelevant argument.
@jpotts44 "I have volunteered with the Boy Scouts of America and I have helped out with my local High School Wrestling Team."
So a predilection for watching sweaty boys grope one another and membership in an organization that has the same track record for protecting pedophiles as the catholic church makes you a moral authority?
Because we are all "unique" little snowflakes, we should overpopulate and make everyone's life a living hell? Are you even considering the implications?
@moopism The best you can do is make accusations of pedophilia? If you want to have a serious discussion I will participate but I will not entertain such foolishness. I have learned that arguing with fools only makes you look like a fool. So, if you want to talk like adults and not school yard bullies let me know.
@moopism You merely created a straw-man argument implying I am a apart of an organization who is renowned for pedophilia (which is not true) and that my service to my community is thus irrelevant because a few perverts infiltrated said organization. When actually the public school system in which you participated has a higher rate of molestation but media doesn't acknowledge that because it would discredit the state.
@jpotts44 "You merely created a straw-man argument implying I am a apart of an organization who is renowned for pedophilia (which is not true)"
I didn't strawman shit. I pointed out your authority was nonexistent. PERIOD.
As for the pedophilia scandals... don't you bother reading the news? don't make me humiliate you with quotes from reputable sources- you WILL look stupid.
@moopism This is still a straw-man argument we are talking about abortion. Second, quotes don't prove anything show me the figures on molestation in the BSA compared to the Catholic Church or Public Schools. You will find that both those institutions have much higher molestation rates than the Boy Scouts of America. This argument is irrelevant; so this is the last time I will address this.
@jpotts44 "This argument is irrelevant; so this is the last time I will address this. "
You brought it up as some shiny badge of honor, not me; sorry I wasn't sufficiently impressed by your "I'm Mother Teresa" gambit. You tried to gain an advantage and you got handed your ass. So are you prepared to talk like an adult sans the posturing?
@jpotts44 Or if you prefer to sidestep the zygote issue, what about the notion that bringing unwanted offspring into the world only to suffer a life of abuse and neglect, with consequences to both that child and society in terms of violence, drug addiction, alcoholism, starvation, and the continued cycle of unintended preganancies and neglected children?
Is it somehow more moral to force a shitty existence on them to assuage your sensibilities?
@moopism Ignoring the fact that you are trying to bully your way through this argument I agree that abuse and neglect are horrible but you are only examining the horrible "what ifs" and we could play the what if game all day; I could argue what if MLK .Jr or Gandhi were aborted. What great individuals loses that would be towards humanity; how can you risk eliminating the next Einstein? Or Telsa? None of these men had easy lives it was actually the hardships they faced that made them great.
@jpotts44 "we could play the what if game all day;"
THIS is no game. From yesterday's news:
"Child Abuse May Alter Structure of the Brain, Research Shows"
Dec. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Teenagers who were abused as young children show changes in their brains that put them at risk for behavioral problems in adulthood, according to research from Yale University."
I'm not talking what if, I'm asking straight out:
Is a shitty existence condemned to suffering or starvation somehow better?
@moopism The perspective from which you argue is that all children born by parents who did not use proper contraception are going to be abused and live horrible lives. This is far from the reality and I gave you four examples of men who grew up in less than perfect conditions and rose to greatness. The potential for a great life far out weighs the risks. Who are you to judge a life worth living? I'm sure their are many people who have been molested/abused/neglected who still enjoy living.
@jpotts44 "The perspective from which you argue is that all children born by parents who did not use proper contraception are going to be abused and live horrible lives."
I didn't say that at all. You're offering the moral absolute that abortion is ALWAYS wrong, so who's really painting with black and white in big broad brush strokes?
"I gave you four examples"
And that weighs against how many countless billions who didn't enjoy such great lives?
@jpotts44 "The potential for a great life far out weighs the risks. Who are you to judge a life worth living?"
Tell that to the children born to starve to death in Ethiopia or Darfor or Somalia. How many thousands or millions or billions is it worth expending in that manner to gain the few exceptions? Quantify this, please, you seem to be comfortable accepting these situations as morally better.
@jpotts44 "So your answer to this problem is to kill the children before they live lives as horrible as yours? "
Where did I say that? You keep taking my questions and running them into absolutes.
Ok, FINE, we'll play THAT game:
For the sake of argument, 'abortion is always murder'; so does that now justify the acts of violence that have occurred against providers? The bombings? Killing? Assault? After all it's in defense of life. How do you propose to stop it? Because it WILL happen.
@jpotts44 The other issue you are completely overlooking here is WHERE exactly, do you draw the line? A morning after pill? That expells a fertilized egg before it attaches to the uterine wall. Is that murder?
What about all those zygotes in deep freeze in fertility clinics that will never be utilized? Are those murders too?
Based on your logic of potential loss of an Einstein, doesn't that make ALL forms of birth control immoral? that is the Catholic Church's stance.
@moopism Conception is life. Unique DNA is created at conception. Unique DNA means that the DNA independent of the mother and the father. This means it is neither of them and now the woman carries two people, not one. This eliminates the right to your body argument. You have a right to your body, you can choose to have sex or not have sex. Accept the responsibility of your actions. This throw away society has no regard for life and that is sad.
@jpotts44 "Conception is life. Unique DNA is created at conception. Unique DNA means that the DNA independent of the mother and the father. "
So what about zygotes in fertility clinics? Frozen. The vast majority will never be used. Is that then murder? What about a morning after pill? the egg is fertilized, but no yet attached, the pill prevents that. Is that murder as well?
Are women then obliged to give birth to their rapists' children? That's happening in Afghanistan as we speak.
@jpotts44 "This means it is neither of them and now the woman carries two people, not one. This eliminates the right to your body argument. "
Except that in the earliest stages, that tissue is dependent on its biological host. It cannot be extracted and put in an incubator, it isn't even developed enough to survive with that level of support. How can you then say it's not part of the woman's body? That's not even factual.
@jpotts44 "Accept the responsibility of your actions. This throw away society has no regard for life and that is sad. "
The other problem with that is that it is great cover for those who disapprove of family planning because they disapprove of sex. To them it's dirty, and should be fraught with as many negative consequences as possible, so as to discourage what they consider disgusting. You can't deny or ignore that.
@jpotts44 What happens if medical testing reveals severe problems/defects? is this child now supposed to live out that life because it would be wrong to abort it?
The real problem I have here is that you've offered a simplistic absolute,i.e., abortion at any stage equals murder, to a varied and complex situation.
what about when the mother dies in childbirth? Shouldn't the infant be charged with matricide?
@moopism Who are you deem a life worth living? I know of a man with no arms and legs and he is actually a motivational speaker. he would tell you it was not easy to accept and he had complicated suicide but he found purpose. Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great. i have to got work because I have a job but I'll continue this later.
No one any more or less special or qualified than you. If the zygote is aborted, it has not yet even developed a brain or consciousness. Who are you to say that it experienced anything? Much less a life worth living.
@jpotts44 "Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great."
That is rank speculation at best, made by people who sell books offering twists on historical figures. you are neither a doctor, nor do you possess any diagnostic test or results that demonstrate that. You cannot just make unfounded blanket statements to prop up your argument here. Besides how cares about the exceptional? Your argument is the value of ALL life, not just the great.
@jpotts44 "Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great."
Oliver Sacks says that claims that Einstein or Newton had autism "seem very thin at best".[8] Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco, is unconvinced that either scientist had Asperger syndrome, particularly due to the unreliability of diagnoses based on biographical information.
@moopism Well, unreliability is an under statement when it comes to Psychiatry. If you really want this debate; I'll gladly prove Psychiatry to be a pseudo-science at best. It is not the diagnosis of an individual as sick but the diagnosis of society as healthy. It is a science of control that aims to eliminate those who think differently as "sick". FYI next time you quote Wikipedia remove the footnote. [8] was a dead give away.
@jpotts44 "I'll gladly prove Psychiatry to be a pseudo-science at best."
Then you've obviously got no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't attempting to "hide" that the quote was from wikipedia, merely that you are no expert, and the experts don't agree on your diagnosis of Einstein. Shall we move on to important details or are you going to chase after a red herring? This still doesn't demonstrate what you contended it does, nor address problems with your 'pro life' stance.
@jpotts44 "he had complicated[sic, contemplated] suicide but he found purpose. "
We are talking about zygotes with out a brain at all. How is that analogous to a developed adult's decision to commit suicide or not?
It's not even in the same ballpark, now is it? You have a tendency to make facile and overly broad generalizations that equivocate the various to the point of absurdity. This is an intellectually lazy argument. Have you even thought this out?
@moopism I am talking about when parents discover their child maybe deformed or mentally ill in the womb they may choose to abort instead of giving it a chance to live. Like this gentlemen who was born with no arms and legs: he had his troubles like any other honest person but he found happiness with his existence even though he was not giving all the benefits you or i received.
@jpotts44 'but he found happiness with his existence '
that still doesn't explain what exactly a zygote with no brain tissue is supposed to experience that quantifies 'finding happiness with its existence'. You stated this is awarded or begins at conception, and all you're referring to is folks who've already had to fortune (or misfortune) of being born. Of course a conscious individual will have an opinion, but you're arguing for "zygote rights". Address THEM.
@moopism Unique DNA is created at conception, thus begins life.Were you once a zygote? Yes, so how can you say a zygote is not a human if you yourself were once in that stage of development? It's like ruling children as not people and then demanding how I would address "Child Rights". Well, it's simple you treat them the way your treat any other human. To deny the zygote is to deny your own humanity. Your argument is basically in the early stages your are some alien or mutant that isn't human.
@jpotts44 "Were you once a zygote? Yes, so how can you say a zygote is not a human"
I've asked you many pointed questions about the ramifications of that statement, in order to facilitate discussion. Thus far you seem to want to ignore those issues.
"Your argument is basically in the early stages your are some alien or mutant that isn't human. "
Referring to brainless human tissue as tissue, is accurate, and certainly NOT calling anything alien or mutant. Please be accurate.
@moopism Since when does a brain prove that something is living? Trees clearly have no brains yet they are alive? You still haven't explained to me how you define alive?
@jpotts44 "Since when does a brain prove that something is living? Trees clearly have no brains yet they are alive?"
No one is calling the timber industry murderers for cutting down tree. You're analogy is facile and false. We are speaking of defining a human right here. speaking about plants is ridiculous. Show me a plants brain. Demonstrate it has self awareness.
@jpotts44 "You still haven't explained to me how you define alive?"
We aren't defining life, hell cancer is alive by the same definition a zygote is. We are defining human rights. Stop moving the goalposts, it makes you look desperate.
Or be prepared to explain why killing even a bug or a plant shouldn't be murder as well.
@jpotts44 Well, you're telling me it's at the moment of conception, and personally, I'd prefer you see your defend your position; afterall, YOU contacted me and stated that as your contention, the least you can do is defend it instead of trying to get me to provide the terms for you.
So, are you saying that the abortion of ANY zygote from the moment of conception is tantamount to murder? If that is what you're saying, then let's discuss that, as I offered to 2 days ago.
@moopism I fear if I ask you to recall what you are talking about that it may appear desperate to a man of superior debate like yourself. None the less, I carry on: what do you want me to defend? And please hold your Ad Hominems for a much inferior person who will let you bully them around. Every other line from you is slander, if your going to be condescending at least be witty and sarcastic please.
@jpotts44" I fear if I ask you to recall what you are talking about that it may appear desperate "
This is what we are talking about:
"The unique DNA that makes you the person you are today was created at conception. Self awareness is an irrelevant argument. "
As I said before, I want you to tell me exactly what the consequences of that are. I have mentioned a number of scenerios other than abortion wherein viable existence might be lost, so what about it? If you're right, then what?
@moopism We already did this dance. Your scenarios were nothing short of "what if propaganda" to pull the strings of the heart when they fall far flat of the reality. The correlation between unwanted births and abuse is not even a calculable number for you to make this case. My solution is simple; educate young people on methods of contraception, make clear that abstinence is the only guaranteed method of not getting pregnant and life is precious, no matter how hard of difficult it may be.
@jpotts44" My solution is simple; educate young people on methods of contraception, make clear that abstinence is the only guaranteed method of not getting pregnant".
Ok, what about contragestives? Morning after? IUD? Does that make them murder? Are you saying it's immoral for a rape victim to not want to bear that child? Should she be forced to? What about frozen embryos? In 2002 there were 396,526 embryos that had been placed in storage in the US. Hardly propaganda; what about them?
@jpotts44 If one of the freezers fails through maintenence neglect, or executive failure to adequately plan for mechanical contingencies, is that tantamount then to negligent homicide of some type? Are we to prosecute for this?
This isn't propaganda, this stuff happens: freezers fail, get old, break, power goes out. If these are human lives, do we investigate all this to determine fault and consequences?
You can't just walk off from what it means. It's your absolute, explain it.
@moopism Artificial Conception outside the womb is a complicated situation and it is going to be hard for others to imagine these beings as humans considering they are created in a lab. These advances in bio-tech have come so rapidly that we (people) have not really had the time to sit down and discuss whether these are human beings they are creating. My personal opinion is that they are and no matter the unpopularity of that position; I hold true to it. To deny 1 life is to deny my own.
@jpotts44 "My personal opinion is that they are [human beings]".
So tell me, how are we supposed to come to grips with that? I've offered very real instances wherein someone might be consider culpable for their death. What then?
@jpotts44 So here we are. You somehow think just stating a position is the same as defending it. You spent all this time and bandwidth to never really leave square one. Now you're gone and don't seem capable of offering any insight into how the world according to you should actually work. Why am I not surprised?
@moopism My position is simple I consider a zygote to be a human being because the DNA that makes up the individual Adult Human is the same as the DNA make-up of the zygote. Just as every person must be an infant before a child, a child before an adolescent and an adolescent before an adult every person must first be a zygote. Now, what is your position again if you could remind me because you have failed to dictate one and this gives a continuous ability to change your argument.
I haven't stated one. You entered into this discussion with the same statement you just made. DEFEND IT. I have asked pertinent questions. You keep stating the same point, then ask me what I think. What I think is you're avoiding defending a philosophic question that has immense social ramifications. I've asked you to explain how this 'world according to you' plays out. Don't think you can offer absolutes and that's it. Defend your stance.
@moopism You are demanding I spew out some hypothetical vision of the future where no one gs abortions. Why would I ever make some absurd argument like that. I am stating that there are human rights that must be protected and basically by demanding I give this hypothetical future you are taking of the position that abortion is for the greater good of the planet correct?
@jpotts44 "You are demanding I spew out some hypothetical vision ..."
So what you're telling me is that you hew to philosophical statements and ethical/moral stances, but you can't be bothered to reason out why or how they should be applied?
If you can't be bothered to respect your own beliefs enough to understand them, then how do you expect to convince me, or anyone else, that you are correct?
Pathetic.
I asked how rights should be protected, and you say 'why bother'?
@moopism Your over use of verbiage is almost to the point of incomprehension. I'm never actually sure what you are asking because your questions fail to be direct & are often filled with more slander than they are any form of knowledge. You are using the tactic of slicing up my posts to the point of not even using full sentences anymore. You still fail to have a position in this argument which makes you an antagonist more than a participant in the conversation. Please address these issues.
@moopism We are here in America and when you are raped here in America you can call the authorities who will come and assist you, after the necessary investigative actions are taken they offer you what is often called a "Morning After Pill"; if this pill is take before 36 hours you can guarantee that conception has not occurred. After intercourse conception will occur between 36 and 48 hours. The "Pill" is no different then a condom when it comes to pregnancy, it prevents sperm form meeting egg.
@jpotts44 You are mistaken: PREVEN® can stop or delay ovulation (the release of an egg), it can stop sperm from fertilizing an egg if it was already released, and it can stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus." How Does Plan B® Work? Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may prevent pregnancy by temporarily stopping the release of an egg from a woman's ovary, or it may prevent fertilization. It may also prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. "
@jpotts44 "Unique DNA is created at conception, thus begins life."
If that statement is true, then you DO have a yes or no answer. Sidestepping is something you seem to fall back on an awful lot for someone so certain of his "moral" compass.
@moopism Side-stepping says the scarecrow with no brains! No opinion either thats for sure. You have failed to make a single point in this argument and have strictly directed your argument at me with childish attacks at my opinions and character but your teenage angst shines through more in this discussion than anything else? Who hurt you little boy?
@jpotts44 Let me remind you that YOU initiated this discussion. if you are unable to muster up what it takes to defend what YOU went out of your way to say to me, then I'd advise you take your little dog and pony show and saddle up for elsewhere, cowboy.
@moopism Was it an absent father, and a mother who loved to wash down her Vicodin with a good glass of pinot grigio instead of loving her talent-less son? Was that what drove you to life of internet bullying because if it is boy; I forgive you. Just know this wasn't your fault; you were only a child you couldn't keep mommy and daddy together.
@jpotts44 Just more sidestep. I'm beginning to think you don't have a leg to stand on so you're going to try to play amateur psychologist; which is hugely amusing from someone who said on this very comment section that psychology/psychiatry was a sham.
I have news for you: getting handed your ass publicly because you got in over your head is not being "bullied", and the victimhood you wish to drape yourself in is a bad fit.
@moopism You never had legs, for you know not the bullshit you spew from your fragile mind. You are blind and you presume to know not only the world but that you have Worth! Worth you would argue others shall not have and this is the basis upon which your argument stands. That you deserve life while other deserve abortion plans. Take from them the right to live and all you give is hope for the greater good. What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? Go play judge...
@moopism You never had legs, for you know not the bullshit you spew from your fragile mind. You are blind and you presume to know not only the world but that you have Worth! Worth you would argue others shall not have and this is the basis upon which your argument stands. That you deserve life while other deserve abortion plans. Take from them the right to live and all you give is hope for the greater good. What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? Go play judge...
@jpotts44 "What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? "
Now that IS a good question. Think about that next time you vote to elect someone who'll bomb the shit out of another country.
What have you done to stop mankinds' vistations of horror and death upon itself? I'm willing to bet jackshit is all you've done. You moralizers are all cut from that cloth.
P.S. I don't have to judge, just let human nature play itself out.
@jpotts44 Ah yes, one more inarticulate stab at nuttiness from the far right. These little chats have been very illuminating. Thank you so much for being willing to live as a shining example of just how fucking batshit crazy your ilk really are.
As a fan of Zinnia I thank you for making us all laugh.
@moopism I gave up trying to converse with you. I thought by speaking stupid we could find some common ground cause you never intended into have a serious conversation with me. All you did was talk shit and talking shit isn't proof of your intelligence lol. Google: "ProphetoverProfit" and you can see what I do in my free time. Thanks for your time.
@jpotts44 Why would I bother trying to see what you do in your free time? i have no interest in you, I find your views unrealistic and your character too shallow to bother to flesh out your own philosophical underpinnings, which leads me to believe you only regurgitate what you want to hear without thought.
You approached me with a moral contention, then refused to discuss it in real terms.
@moopism Well, you apparently want the last word as well because you continue to reply so I guess that would make you childish by your own logic. Interesting. So by your logic the adult in this situation would let the other person have the last word? Correct?
@jpotts44 "None of these men had easy lives it was actually the hardships they faced that made them great. "
That's facile. You can no more claim to know the contents of these mens' minds than you can anyone else. you only suppose suffering is a virtue because you claim it's so.
Einstein wasn't smart because he suffered. That's insulting.
@jpotts44 "The best you can do is make accusations...?"
That's not the best I can do, I merely pointed out that, given recent news events, your moral authority was lacking. I didn't trot those out, you did.
I DID bring up the thorny issue of the repercussions of blanket personhood being awarded to tissue that is unviable apart from its biological host, i.e., a zygote, in its most apparent manifest problem- overpopulation.
@jpotts44 "I have learned that arguing with fools only makes you look like a fool."
P.S. Hey sunshine, you chose to engage me, I didn't bark up your tree first. If you don't like me deflating your ego, then don't try to assume some moral high ground with me, because I WILL call you on your bullshit.
@agencyman1 If you can't tell the difference, I'm not going to try to sort it out. Do you oppose the death penalty? Are you opposed tom war? Are you in favor of universal healthcare?
If you answered "no" to any of these, then I have to ask'
"What is the difference then, between stifling that potential as an embyro, and stifling it as 25 years of age. It all does the same thing. "
I'm sorry but i am prochoice... it's no ones right to say that it is bad and that it should be illegal... A woman should beable to do what she wants with her body without a big group of old fart men to tell her no.
I mean if an Atheist regards human life the same way he does a bug and that anyone should die for any reason, survival of the fittest or whatever, then fine, yeah, I understand why they would support abortion, and they'd likely also support the death penalty and who cares if someone dies from drunk driving because well, things die, that's what happens, survival of the fittest.
But if you think that people should not die, I don't know how you can justify abortion.
I really baffles me how any Atheist can honestly support abortion, but then say that murdering any human is wrong.
I mean you kill me at conception stage or 40 year old stage, you're still killing me any way you want to look at it. It boggles my mind how an Atheist can honestly think abortion is okay.
I mean at least a theist can say, well God doesn't actually bring the soul into the body until . . . God doesn't actually consider it human until it leaves the womb . . . but if you don't even believe in God that essentially means that there is no real definition of human life that starting at any stage, which essentially means we are human life at the moment we start developing and growing, that process starts at conception.
To you we are the same as the newly conceived fetus, just merely at a higher stage of development. I mean without God, there is no divine definition of life or humanity. We are as the animals, only smarter. Thus to kill a newly conceived child is the tantamount to killing a long ago conceived child because we are essentially the same, only in a later stage of life.
If it's wrong to kill me now at this stage of life, certainly it's wrong to kill me at the conception stage of life.
Honestly, as an Atheist, I cannot see how you could support abortion in any way. To you life does not begin because of some divine power that breaths the breath of life into a body.
Well, that's what you're looking at when you're a pro-lifer who believes human life starts at conception and is every bit as worthy as citizens under the constitution and the unalienable rights we all pretend to believe in this nation.
It's not outlandish when the fetus is an unborn human being.
What would you do if new born babies were painlessly euthanized and/or their nerves at the base of the spinal column for pain were severed, and then scientific experiments were done on them? Would you approve of this? Would you argue against it? Would you consider it to be comparable to the Holocaust, or if not the entire Holocaust, perhaps a piece of it?
To answer the question, "Can a...person survive if you kill half of their cells?"
It depends on which cells you're killing. We lose cells all the time. Seven years from now, the only cells you'll still have that you have now will be in your brain. So, really, it depends on which cells you kill, and depending on which, over what period of time you do it. This is not an experiment I would recommend trying, however, because even if the person survives, he won't be healthy.
You're in a burning building. Before you are two doors that are partially blocked by debris. Unblocking Door A will permanently block Door B, and vice versa. Behind Door A is a rolling, self-powered freezer containing ten embryos. Behind Door B is a single toddler. Which door do you unblock?
@butchkitties Now that sure is an interesting, yet asinine question there. Self-powered freezer huh? So it would be safe to come back later after the fire and fish those little buggers out? I'd have to go with Door B then. Not a hard riddle there.
@jadencore It's a variation of the trolley dilemma, which is pretty commonly utilized in cognitive science research. The "self-powered" part was just to avoid people choosing based on the idea that the embryos would not survive either way. The main point is to examine whether people who say they think embryos are people would make choices consistent with that declaration.
@butchkitties I see. That's a pretty handy riddle to have actually. And any arguments that spring to mind just emphasize the fact that embryo's aren't human anyway. I'll try that out. Cheers mate.
You are right. I have caused genocides simply by washing, stabbed to death and digested lots of tomatoes, fried to death lots of potatoes, I have been a complice to mass murder by grinding by eating bread, I am a unconscious mass murderer due to pollution and masturbation and let lots and lots of sicamore seeds die on the street refusing to rescue and sow them. Another case of mass murder is eating walnuts. Cutting down walnuts is absolutely illegal in our country.
I have a question for the christian fundementalist anti-abortion folks: If there was a scientific method to determine before birth if it is gay or not, would you abort it ?
Tell me, have you ever seen a video of a little baby getting dismembered and slaughtered inside them womb, after the nervous system and the internal organs start developing?
Since you don't think that a fetus should have any rights and that it should be legal to kill it up until the day it's born because it's not separate from the woman yet, or it's not capable of the consciousness of an adult, then why shouldn't be legal to euthanise them a few days after they're born like Obama does?
buddy, watch the video again. You are put words into his mouth. I never heard him say all abortions should be legal, did you? He just explained how it doesn't make sense to call a single-celled organism a human being. That doesn't imply that its ethical to abort a baby/fetus the day before its expected to be born. Have you ever seen the "murder" of a single-celled "human?" probably wouldn't draw the same emotional reaction from you as the type of abortion you describe.
If it was you could make an argument for disposing of people with low I.Q or brain damage. Tend to agree with your mother. I understand your stance but you need to use different wording. Don't get me wrong every woman should have the option. Freezing embryos shoudn't happen in the first place, it's all for profit including fertility treatments.
I wonder what your opinion on euthanizing the elderly, handicapped or people who are mentally deficient ect. They no longer have all the components that make them fully developed human beings right? Which is more ethical, ending life that is no longer productive or ending life that is full of potential? Single cell i agree, fetus no. Big difference between fetus and clump of cells. Because a brain is undeveloped is not an excuse.
@shawndonald78 The elderly, handicapped even the mentally handicapped still have more cognitive ability then a fetus at 3 months. Even my grandmother with dementia had more of her brain working then a fetus.
Plus there is no longer that whole mother's welfare thing to consider since these people are not in a womb, dependent on the good health of a host organism.
Her argument is based on the idea that humanity is not based on an unprovable soul or what kind of meat it is.
@Benjaminb46 What about the 22 million abortions a year in China? 14 million surgical, 6 million by pill, and 2 million illegally in the 'back ally' or false clinics? Sad to say that those 22 million 'babies' won't be turned to be cheap labor for American Over-seas workers!
@Benjaminb46 "What about em?" At first I thought you were concerned for the 'millions of babies' and human life. Now I see you were concerned about the economy and the social security checks. Sorry, my mistake.
@cuzinoftheotherworld No i said what about em because i wasnt sure where you were going with them. i said the millions killed in the united states and you said What about the 22 million abortions in China? How am i supposed to respond to that? Jeez calm down and quit assuming.
I'm prolife not because I'm religious, but because I believe it is the job of the government to protect the lives of its people. Regardless of whether fetuses have brains, can feel, or are equal to human beings, they will become humans. Taking that chance for life away from someone/something/whatever you would like to call them is serious. But I'm with you about the fertility clinics. They should go towards cures rather than be wasted.
This is what he get when he elece someone with a C average and who's a fundamentalist retard running the united states back then. Lets just hope we never have another fuckung idiot running america.
3:09 Our perception of the physical world is entirely an interpretation of a collection of what we call electrical signals which are given to us by inputs (we call our senses). So we don't and can't know the physical world is real.
5:29 At the moment... we can't thaw someone out without harming them. But when they can, this point of yours will be worthless.
embryonic stem cell research is becoming outdated anyway, so this debate is becoming irrelevant. Scientists have actually been able to transform skin cells into blood cells without even going through the process of converting them into cell with pluri-potentialitym thus suggesting that all cells very well may have such potential regardless of their status as a stem cell.
You make a good case, but you're wrong that there's no evidence for the soul. Blind people since birth have been able to see during a near death/out of body experience. This is evidence that consciousness (or soul) can exist independant of the body.
@resedoton There are a thousand more rational explanations as to why blind people can sometimes "see" than "because they have a soul".
"In humans, we know that if we disrupt the [brain] region where vision, sense of motion, orientation in the Earth's gravitational field, and knowing the position of our body all come together, then out-of-body experiences can be caused literally by the flip of a switch" -Kevin Nelson, professor of neurology at the University of Kentucky
@Khyrid Sorry you believe in such crap as original sin, but even so, this would not be part of the original sin in Christian theology. That was passed down supposedly from the sins of Adam and Eve, which supposedly we were freed from when Jesus, blah blah blah.
brilliance.
MzCheshireKat 5 days ago
"destroying human life in the hopes of saving human life is not ethical." ---George W. Bush, six years after invading Afghanistan ... -_-
shrinkiwannakill 1 week ago in playlist Religion
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LazyGirlSuperHero 1 week ago
Agreed Z, type duality suffers from the binding problem.
Z should still vote herself governor using a test tube of "human beings".
Trubripes 3 weeks ago
I love how articulate he is.
pirokitsune 2 months ago
Dude !
What the fuck is wrong with you?
What's with the girls cloths and hair?
Why would anyone care what you have to say when you don't even know WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE
ekajeht 2 months ago
@ekajeht What the fuck is wrong with you?
moopism 1 month ago
What are you?
AdidasJake 3 months ago
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@AdidasJake "What are you?"
You mean besides a human being? Are you really THAT clueless? Buy a vowel.
moopism 1 month ago
I disagree I think there are many examples in history and in the future that a comparable to the holocaust. Concentration camps a big feature of the holocaust invented by the British during the boer war. Diseased blankets sold to the Indians in the USA just to point your mind into what you need to look at. What really pisses me off are people that think that the treatment of the Jews had something to do with the second world war. I am just saying the world really is a nasty nasty place.
way2jaded1 5 months ago
abortion is awesome
dillinger9999 5 months ago
Science is beginning to produce evidence of an immortal soul as information splattered across the membrane that is our universe. Like matter and energy, information is neither created or destroyed, making reincarnation the most likely explanation of life. The reason we see this in human beings is that the brain acts as the only kind of supercomputers so far capable of storing this kind of information. So once the brain reaches a certain size, a soul is present so abortion does become murder.
DepressedAnnnie 5 months ago
@DepressedAnnnie Should we allow it? You bet because if a child is really that badly unwanted, their quality of life drops bellow the theoretical sanctity of it.
DepressedAnnnie 5 months ago
What can you expect from the flat earth debating society?
If you entertain the thought, and self defeating hope, that propaganda brainwashed nincompoops , let alone ultra conservative religious vegetables, can grasp any concept outside their "up from above fairy tale logic". Boy, are you up for a rude awakening.
lapwiz 5 months ago
I would donate my eggs for stem cell research.
GoddessAntares 6 months ago
@agencyman1 I am sorry but the last i check there are quite a few children who don't get adopted...so yea...As i have Said pro choice.. everyone has their own beleifs and i beleive that if she can't afford to have it then yea.. it's her right..Medical bills are expensive and not all pregnant women get insurance from the government to afford it... the only way i got mine is i had 3 miscarriges prior to having my son...
vampvixenluna13 6 months ago
Homicide can be considered justifiable when protecting life or property, but, where do we draw the line? There are times when the life of the mother could be in jeopardy while pregnant, and the unborn child takes property, namely nutrients, while inside the mother's body. However, until children emancipate themselves, it's conceivable they could be considered thieves should parents decide to no longer provide for them. The responsibility for inducing abortions falls only to the conscious actors.
marasu66 6 months ago
DO A VIDEO ABOUT ANIME!!!!
CyberFenix000 6 months ago
@CyberFenix000 seriously?? T___T
ZakuAbumiFanGirl1 6 months ago
@ZakuAbumiFanGirl1 yes...
CyberFenix000 6 months ago
@agencyman1
Too bad not all the people of Abraham are like you.
TheThordir 6 months ago
@agencyman1 Sorry, I do see that you've answered. Well, I gotta tell you, I'm not impressed by anyone who makes the "pro-life" argument, but can justify killing people for other reasons. It's contradictory at its core. Either all human life has worth of or it doesn't. That should not be a position to equivocate.
moopism 6 months ago
@agencyman1 People get their fate decided for them all the time by bombs dropping from the sky, or lack of medical resources, so why the big exception here?
Had your parents decided to abort you, you would have never had the brain development to care, so the argument is completely facile.
You never did answer the question, Do you support the death penalty? Do you support war? Are you adopting unwanted children, or is this morality of yours strictly the armchair variety?
moopism 6 months ago 3
@moopism I'm against the death penalty, I'm against war, I have not adopted anyone but I have volunteered with the Boy Scouts of America and I have helped out with my local High School Wrestling Team. Now, stop attacking the weak of us; who do not have the courage to do what is right and come talk peace with a man like me. So I ask you were you ever a fetus? or a Zygote? The unique DNA that makes you the person you are today was created at conception. Self awareness is an irrelevant argument.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "I have volunteered with the Boy Scouts of America and I have helped out with my local High School Wrestling Team."
So a predilection for watching sweaty boys grope one another and membership in an organization that has the same track record for protecting pedophiles as the catholic church makes you a moral authority?
Because we are all "unique" little snowflakes, we should overpopulate and make everyone's life a living hell? Are you even considering the implications?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism The best you can do is make accusations of pedophilia? If you want to have a serious discussion I will participate but I will not entertain such foolishness. I have learned that arguing with fools only makes you look like a fool. So, if you want to talk like adults and not school yard bullies let me know.
jpotts44 1 month ago
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moopism 1 month ago
@moopism You merely created a straw-man argument implying I am a apart of an organization who is renowned for pedophilia (which is not true) and that my service to my community is thus irrelevant because a few perverts infiltrated said organization. When actually the public school system in which you participated has a higher rate of molestation but media doesn't acknowledge that because it would discredit the state.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "You merely created a straw-man argument implying I am a apart of an organization who is renowned for pedophilia (which is not true)"
I didn't strawman shit. I pointed out your authority was nonexistent. PERIOD.
As for the pedophilia scandals... don't you bother reading the news? don't make me humiliate you with quotes from reputable sources- you WILL look stupid.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism This is still a straw-man argument we are talking about abortion. Second, quotes don't prove anything show me the figures on molestation in the BSA compared to the Catholic Church or Public Schools. You will find that both those institutions have much higher molestation rates than the Boy Scouts of America. This argument is irrelevant; so this is the last time I will address this.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "This argument is irrelevant; so this is the last time I will address this. "
You brought it up as some shiny badge of honor, not me; sorry I wasn't sufficiently impressed by your "I'm Mother Teresa" gambit. You tried to gain an advantage and you got handed your ass. So are you prepared to talk like an adult sans the posturing?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Or if you prefer to sidestep the zygote issue, what about the notion that bringing unwanted offspring into the world only to suffer a life of abuse and neglect, with consequences to both that child and society in terms of violence, drug addiction, alcoholism, starvation, and the continued cycle of unintended preganancies and neglected children?
Is it somehow more moral to force a shitty existence on them to assuage your sensibilities?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Ignoring the fact that you are trying to bully your way through this argument I agree that abuse and neglect are horrible but you are only examining the horrible "what ifs" and we could play the what if game all day; I could argue what if MLK .Jr or Gandhi were aborted. What great individuals loses that would be towards humanity; how can you risk eliminating the next Einstein? Or Telsa? None of these men had easy lives it was actually the hardships they faced that made them great.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "we could play the what if game all day;"
THIS is no game. From yesterday's news:
"Child Abuse May Alter Structure of the Brain, Research Shows"
Dec. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Teenagers who were abused as young children show changes in their brains that put them at risk for behavioral problems in adulthood, according to research from Yale University."
I'm not talking what if, I'm asking straight out:
Is a shitty existence condemned to suffering or starvation somehow better?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism The perspective from which you argue is that all children born by parents who did not use proper contraception are going to be abused and live horrible lives. This is far from the reality and I gave you four examples of men who grew up in less than perfect conditions and rose to greatness. The potential for a great life far out weighs the risks. Who are you to judge a life worth living? I'm sure their are many people who have been molested/abused/neglected who still enjoy living.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "The perspective from which you argue is that all children born by parents who did not use proper contraception are going to be abused and live horrible lives."
I didn't say that at all. You're offering the moral absolute that abortion is ALWAYS wrong, so who's really painting with black and white in big broad brush strokes?
"I gave you four examples"
And that weighs against how many countless billions who didn't enjoy such great lives?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "The potential for a great life far out weighs the risks. Who are you to judge a life worth living?"
Tell that to the children born to starve to death in Ethiopia or Darfor or Somalia. How many thousands or millions or billions is it worth expending in that manner to gain the few exceptions? Quantify this, please, you seem to be comfortable accepting these situations as morally better.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism So your answer to this problem is to kill the children before they live lives as horrible as yours?
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "So your answer to this problem is to kill the children before they live lives as horrible as yours? "
Where did I say that? You keep taking my questions and running them into absolutes.
Ok, FINE, we'll play THAT game:
For the sake of argument, 'abortion is always murder'; so does that now justify the acts of violence that have occurred against providers? The bombings? Killing? Assault? After all it's in defense of life. How do you propose to stop it? Because it WILL happen.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 The other issue you are completely overlooking here is WHERE exactly, do you draw the line? A morning after pill? That expells a fertilized egg before it attaches to the uterine wall. Is that murder?
What about all those zygotes in deep freeze in fertility clinics that will never be utilized? Are those murders too?
Based on your logic of potential loss of an Einstein, doesn't that make ALL forms of birth control immoral? that is the Catholic Church's stance.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Conception is life. Unique DNA is created at conception. Unique DNA means that the DNA independent of the mother and the father. This means it is neither of them and now the woman carries two people, not one. This eliminates the right to your body argument. You have a right to your body, you can choose to have sex or not have sex. Accept the responsibility of your actions. This throw away society has no regard for life and that is sad.
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "Conception is life. Unique DNA is created at conception. Unique DNA means that the DNA independent of the mother and the father. "
So what about zygotes in fertility clinics? Frozen. The vast majority will never be used. Is that then murder? What about a morning after pill? the egg is fertilized, but no yet attached, the pill prevents that. Is that murder as well?
Are women then obliged to give birth to their rapists' children? That's happening in Afghanistan as we speak.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "This means it is neither of them and now the woman carries two people, not one. This eliminates the right to your body argument. "
Except that in the earliest stages, that tissue is dependent on its biological host. It cannot be extracted and put in an incubator, it isn't even developed enough to survive with that level of support. How can you then say it's not part of the woman's body? That's not even factual.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Accept the responsibility of your actions. This throw away society has no regard for life and that is sad. "
While I would tend to agree with that, I have to take issue with 'this throw away society'.
Where in the course of human history have we give more regard? It has always been so, if fact worse, in regards to consideration for human life.
I also would love to see abortion become unnecessary, but, pro-lifers tend to want to limit access to birth control, so now what?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Accept the responsibility of your actions. This throw away society has no regard for life and that is sad. "
The other problem with that is that it is great cover for those who disapprove of family planning because they disapprove of sex. To them it's dirty, and should be fraught with as many negative consequences as possible, so as to discourage what they consider disgusting. You can't deny or ignore that.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 What happens if medical testing reveals severe problems/defects? is this child now supposed to live out that life because it would be wrong to abort it?
The real problem I have here is that you've offered a simplistic absolute,i.e., abortion at any stage equals murder, to a varied and complex situation.
what about when the mother dies in childbirth? Shouldn't the infant be charged with matricide?
Do you see how ridiculous this can get?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Who are you deem a life worth living? I know of a man with no arms and legs and he is actually a motivational speaker. he would tell you it was not easy to accept and he had complicated suicide but he found purpose. Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great. i have to got work because I have a job but I'll continue this later.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Who are you deem a life worth living?"
No one any more or less special or qualified than you. If the zygote is aborted, it has not yet even developed a brain or consciousness. Who are you to say that it experienced anything? Much less a life worth living.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great."
That is rank speculation at best, made by people who sell books offering twists on historical figures. you are neither a doctor, nor do you possess any diagnostic test or results that demonstrate that. You cannot just make unfounded blanket statements to prop up your argument here. Besides how cares about the exceptional? Your argument is the value of ALL life, not just the great.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Einstein and Telsa definitely had autism and their so called "Mental Illness" made them great."
Oliver Sacks says that claims that Einstein or Newton had autism "seem very thin at best".[8] Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco, is unconvinced that either scientist had Asperger syndrome, particularly due to the unreliability of diagnoses based on biographical information.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Well, unreliability is an under statement when it comes to Psychiatry. If you really want this debate; I'll gladly prove Psychiatry to be a pseudo-science at best. It is not the diagnosis of an individual as sick but the diagnosis of society as healthy. It is a science of control that aims to eliminate those who think differently as "sick". FYI next time you quote Wikipedia remove the footnote. [8] was a dead give away.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "I'll gladly prove Psychiatry to be a pseudo-science at best."
Then you've obviously got no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't attempting to "hide" that the quote was from wikipedia, merely that you are no expert, and the experts don't agree on your diagnosis of Einstein. Shall we move on to important details or are you going to chase after a red herring? This still doesn't demonstrate what you contended it does, nor address problems with your 'pro life' stance.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "he had complicated[sic, contemplated] suicide but he found purpose. "
We are talking about zygotes with out a brain at all. How is that analogous to a developed adult's decision to commit suicide or not?
It's not even in the same ballpark, now is it? You have a tendency to make facile and overly broad generalizations that equivocate the various to the point of absurdity. This is an intellectually lazy argument. Have you even thought this out?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism I am talking about when parents discover their child maybe deformed or mentally ill in the womb they may choose to abort instead of giving it a chance to live. Like this gentlemen who was born with no arms and legs: he had his troubles like any other honest person but he found happiness with his existence even though he was not giving all the benefits you or i received.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 'but he found happiness with his existence '
that still doesn't explain what exactly a zygote with no brain tissue is supposed to experience that quantifies 'finding happiness with its existence'. You stated this is awarded or begins at conception, and all you're referring to is folks who've already had to fortune (or misfortune) of being born. Of course a conscious individual will have an opinion, but you're arguing for "zygote rights". Address THEM.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Unique DNA is created at conception, thus begins life.Were you once a zygote? Yes, so how can you say a zygote is not a human if you yourself were once in that stage of development? It's like ruling children as not people and then demanding how I would address "Child Rights". Well, it's simple you treat them the way your treat any other human. To deny the zygote is to deny your own humanity. Your argument is basically in the early stages your are some alien or mutant that isn't human.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Were you once a zygote? Yes, so how can you say a zygote is not a human"
I've asked you many pointed questions about the ramifications of that statement, in order to facilitate discussion. Thus far you seem to want to ignore those issues.
"Your argument is basically in the early stages your are some alien or mutant that isn't human. "
Referring to brainless human tissue as tissue, is accurate, and certainly NOT calling anything alien or mutant. Please be accurate.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism "Referring to brainless human tissue as tissue, is accurate"
That is a matter of opinion, that is why this debate exists. So how do you define a human being? What makes something living according to you?
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "That is a matter of opinion"
Demonstrate to me how a zygote has a brain, by any definition. Or for that matter before 5 weeks. Show me Dr.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Since when does a brain prove that something is living? Trees clearly have no brains yet they are alive? You still haven't explained to me how you define alive?
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "Since when does a brain prove that something is living? Trees clearly have no brains yet they are alive?"
No one is calling the timber industry murderers for cutting down tree. You're analogy is facile and false. We are speaking of defining a human right here. speaking about plants is ridiculous. Show me a plants brain. Demonstrate it has self awareness.
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "You still haven't explained to me how you define alive?"
We aren't defining life, hell cancer is alive by the same definition a zygote is. We are defining human rights. Stop moving the goalposts, it makes you look desperate.
Or be prepared to explain why killing even a bug or a plant shouldn't be murder as well.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Let me rephrase my question so I don't seem desperate. At what stage in development does it go from moral to immoral to kill a human-being?
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Well, you're telling me it's at the moment of conception, and personally, I'd prefer you see your defend your position; afterall, YOU contacted me and stated that as your contention, the least you can do is defend it instead of trying to get me to provide the terms for you.
So, are you saying that the abortion of ANY zygote from the moment of conception is tantamount to murder? If that is what you're saying, then let's discuss that, as I offered to 2 days ago.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism I fear if I ask you to recall what you are talking about that it may appear desperate to a man of superior debate like yourself. None the less, I carry on: what do you want me to defend? And please hold your Ad Hominems for a much inferior person who will let you bully them around. Every other line from you is slander, if your going to be condescending at least be witty and sarcastic please.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44" I fear if I ask you to recall what you are talking about that it may appear desperate "
This is what we are talking about:
"The unique DNA that makes you the person you are today was created at conception. Self awareness is an irrelevant argument. "
As I said before, I want you to tell me exactly what the consequences of that are. I have mentioned a number of scenerios other than abortion wherein viable existence might be lost, so what about it? If you're right, then what?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism We already did this dance. Your scenarios were nothing short of "what if propaganda" to pull the strings of the heart when they fall far flat of the reality. The correlation between unwanted births and abuse is not even a calculable number for you to make this case. My solution is simple; educate young people on methods of contraception, make clear that abstinence is the only guaranteed method of not getting pregnant and life is precious, no matter how hard of difficult it may be.
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44" My solution is simple; educate young people on methods of contraception, make clear that abstinence is the only guaranteed method of not getting pregnant".
Ok, what about contragestives? Morning after? IUD? Does that make them murder? Are you saying it's immoral for a rape victim to not want to bear that child? Should she be forced to? What about frozen embryos? In 2002 there were 396,526 embryos that had been placed in storage in the US. Hardly propaganda; what about them?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 If one of the freezers fails through maintenence neglect, or executive failure to adequately plan for mechanical contingencies, is that tantamount then to negligent homicide of some type? Are we to prosecute for this?
This isn't propaganda, this stuff happens: freezers fail, get old, break, power goes out. If these are human lives, do we investigate all this to determine fault and consequences?
You can't just walk off from what it means. It's your absolute, explain it.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Artificial Conception outside the womb is a complicated situation and it is going to be hard for others to imagine these beings as humans considering they are created in a lab. These advances in bio-tech have come so rapidly that we (people) have not really had the time to sit down and discuss whether these are human beings they are creating. My personal opinion is that they are and no matter the unpopularity of that position; I hold true to it. To deny 1 life is to deny my own.
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "My personal opinion is that they are [human beings]".
So tell me, how are we supposed to come to grips with that? I've offered very real instances wherein someone might be consider culpable for their death. What then?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 So here we are. You somehow think just stating a position is the same as defending it. You spent all this time and bandwidth to never really leave square one. Now you're gone and don't seem capable of offering any insight into how the world according to you should actually work. Why am I not surprised?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism My position is simple I consider a zygote to be a human being because the DNA that makes up the individual Adult Human is the same as the DNA make-up of the zygote. Just as every person must be an infant before a child, a child before an adolescent and an adolescent before an adult every person must first be a zygote. Now, what is your position again if you could remind me because you have failed to dictate one and this gives a continuous ability to change your argument.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Now, what is your position again"
I haven't stated one. You entered into this discussion with the same statement you just made. DEFEND IT. I have asked pertinent questions. You keep stating the same point, then ask me what I think. What I think is you're avoiding defending a philosophic question that has immense social ramifications. I've asked you to explain how this 'world according to you' plays out. Don't think you can offer absolutes and that's it. Defend your stance.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism You are demanding I spew out some hypothetical vision of the future where no one gs abortions. Why would I ever make some absurd argument like that. I am stating that there are human rights that must be protected and basically by demanding I give this hypothetical future you are taking of the position that abortion is for the greater good of the planet correct?
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "You are demanding I spew out some hypothetical vision ..."
So what you're telling me is that you hew to philosophical statements and ethical/moral stances, but you can't be bothered to reason out why or how they should be applied?
If you can't be bothered to respect your own beliefs enough to understand them, then how do you expect to convince me, or anyone else, that you are correct?
Pathetic.
I asked how rights should be protected, and you say 'why bother'?
Seriously?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Your over use of verbiage is almost to the point of incomprehension. I'm never actually sure what you are asking because your questions fail to be direct & are often filled with more slander than they are any form of knowledge. You are using the tactic of slicing up my posts to the point of not even using full sentences anymore. You still fail to have a position in this argument which makes you an antagonist more than a participant in the conversation. Please address these issues.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 How much bandwidth do you intend to use sidestepping the issue?
Answer one question:
Should a rape victim be forced to give birth? This isn't theoretical- it's happening in Afghanistan as we speak.
defend your belief, or get the fuck out.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism We are here in America and when you are raped here in America you can call the authorities who will come and assist you, after the necessary investigative actions are taken they offer you what is often called a "Morning After Pill"; if this pill is take before 36 hours you can guarantee that conception has not occurred. After intercourse conception will occur between 36 and 48 hours. The "Pill" is no different then a condom when it comes to pregnancy, it prevents sperm form meeting egg.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 You are mistaken: PREVEN® can stop or delay ovulation (the release of an egg), it can stop sperm from fertilizing an egg if it was already released, and it can stop a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus." How Does Plan B® Work? Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may prevent pregnancy by temporarily stopping the release of an egg from a woman's ovary, or it may prevent fertilization. It may also prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. "
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 That is my main issue with you. you want to offer blanket moralizations without really understanding the consequences.
So, to reiterate:
Should a rape victim, in those circumstances wherein the egg IS fertilized, be FORCED to bear the child to satisfy your moral scruples?
That's a yes or no answer.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism There are no yes or no answers.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "Unique DNA is created at conception, thus begins life."
If that statement is true, then you DO have a yes or no answer. Sidestepping is something you seem to fall back on an awful lot for someone so certain of his "moral" compass.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Side-stepping says the scarecrow with no brains! No opinion either thats for sure. You have failed to make a single point in this argument and have strictly directed your argument at me with childish attacks at my opinions and character but your teenage angst shines through more in this discussion than anything else? Who hurt you little boy?
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Let me remind you that YOU initiated this discussion. if you are unable to muster up what it takes to defend what YOU went out of your way to say to me, then I'd advise you take your little dog and pony show and saddle up for elsewhere, cowboy.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Was it an absent father, and a mother who loved to wash down her Vicodin with a good glass of pinot grigio instead of loving her talent-less son? Was that what drove you to life of internet bullying because if it is boy; I forgive you. Just know this wasn't your fault; you were only a child you couldn't keep mommy and daddy together.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Just more sidestep. I'm beginning to think you don't have a leg to stand on so you're going to try to play amateur psychologist; which is hugely amusing from someone who said on this very comment section that psychology/psychiatry was a sham.
I have news for you: getting handed your ass publicly because you got in over your head is not being "bullied", and the victimhood you wish to drape yourself in is a bad fit.
moopism 1 month ago
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jpotts44 1 month ago
@moopism You never had legs, for you know not the bullshit you spew from your fragile mind. You are blind and you presume to know not only the world but that you have Worth! Worth you would argue others shall not have and this is the basis upon which your argument stands. That you deserve life while other deserve abortion plans. Take from them the right to live and all you give is hope for the greater good. What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? Go play judge...
jpotts44 1 month ago
@moopism You never had legs, for you know not the bullshit you spew from your fragile mind. You are blind and you presume to know not only the world but that you have Worth! Worth you would argue others shall not have and this is the basis upon which your argument stands. That you deserve life while other deserve abortion plans. Take from them the right to live and all you give is hope for the greater good. What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? Go play judge...
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "What good is greatness if it is forged in the blood of the innocent? "
Now that IS a good question. Think about that next time you vote to elect someone who'll bomb the shit out of another country.
What have you done to stop mankinds' vistations of horror and death upon itself? I'm willing to bet jackshit is all you've done. You moralizers are all cut from that cloth.
P.S. I don't have to judge, just let human nature play itself out.
moopism 1 month ago
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jpotts44 1 month ago
@moopism Vote Ron Paul 2012, Help Dismantle the Empire and End the Wars!!!
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Ah yes, one more inarticulate stab at nuttiness from the far right. These little chats have been very illuminating. Thank you so much for being willing to live as a shining example of just how fucking batshit crazy your ilk really are.
As a fan of Zinnia I thank you for making us all laugh.
You can go crawl back under your rock now.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism I gave up trying to converse with you. I thought by speaking stupid we could find some common ground cause you never intended into have a serious conversation with me. All you did was talk shit and talking shit isn't proof of your intelligence lol. Google: "ProphetoverProfit" and you can see what I do in my free time. Thanks for your time.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Why would I bother trying to see what you do in your free time? i have no interest in you, I find your views unrealistic and your character too shallow to bother to flesh out your own philosophical underpinnings, which leads me to believe you only regurgitate what you want to hear without thought.
You approached me with a moral contention, then refused to discuss it in real terms.
You got my time, but I assure you, you wasted it.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism I get Last Word
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 Really? That childish are we? I can hold my breath too, douchebag.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Well, you apparently want the last word as well because you continue to reply so I guess that would make you childish by your own logic. Interesting. So by your logic the adult in this situation would let the other person have the last word? Correct?
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 So America is the only place where your moral apply?
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism No my morals apply everywhere but only here does my voice matter.
jpotts44 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "The correlation between unwanted births and abuse is not even a calculable number for you to make this case."
I never made that claim. Please don't put words in my mouth.
moopism 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "because I have a job but I'll continue this later. "
I don't?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 So, you started this little confab, and now you're nowhere to be found. How come I'm not surprised?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "None of these men had easy lives it was actually the hardships they faced that made them great. "
That's facile. You can no more claim to know the contents of these mens' minds than you can anyone else. you only suppose suffering is a virtue because you claim it's so.
Einstein wasn't smart because he suffered. That's insulting.
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism Now if your done playing the "what if game" I would gladly debate you on what makes a human being.
jpotts44 1 month ago
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@jpotts44 "The best you can do is make accusations...?"
That's not the best I can do, I merely pointed out that, given recent news events, your moral authority was lacking. I didn't trot those out, you did.
I DID bring up the thorny issue of the repercussions of blanket personhood being awarded to tissue that is unviable apart from its biological host, i.e., a zygote, in its most apparent manifest problem- overpopulation.
Will you deign to answer that as an adult?
moopism 1 month ago
@jpotts44 "I have learned that arguing with fools only makes you look like a fool."
P.S. Hey sunshine, you chose to engage me, I didn't bark up your tree first. If you don't like me deflating your ego, then don't try to assume some moral high ground with me, because I WILL call you on your bullshit.
moopism 1 month ago
@agencyman1
But would you force the child into an ex-gay program, which it will most likely scar him or her for life?
TheThordir 6 months ago
@agencyman1 Well the thing is, embryos ain't really people are they?
jadencore 6 months ago
@agencyman1 If you can't tell the difference, I'm not going to try to sort it out. Do you oppose the death penalty? Are you opposed tom war? Are you in favor of universal healthcare?
If you answered "no" to any of these, then I have to ask'
"What is the difference then, between stifling that potential as an embyro, and stifling it as 25 years of age. It all does the same thing. "
moopism 6 months ago
Only the superstitious would oppose such research.
CallMeMrNameless 7 months ago
Rosie Jones, thanks for another well reasoned argument. I <3 you.
azzy314159 7 months ago
What I like about this guy is that he/she actually thinks before he talks.
mariokluser 7 months ago
I'm sorry but i am prochoice... it's no ones right to say that it is bad and that it should be illegal... A woman should beable to do what she wants with her body without a big group of old fart men to tell her no.
vampvixenluna13 7 months ago
I mean if an Atheist regards human life the same way he does a bug and that anyone should die for any reason, survival of the fittest or whatever, then fine, yeah, I understand why they would support abortion, and they'd likely also support the death penalty and who cares if someone dies from drunk driving because well, things die, that's what happens, survival of the fittest.
But if you think that people should not die, I don't know how you can justify abortion.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
@NewnotesJR "But if you think that people should not die, I don't know how you can justify abortion. "
Yes, you can: until a fetus is biologically sustainable separate for the mother, it isn't a person, it's tissue living off her body.
moopism 7 months ago
With that said,
I really baffles me how any Atheist can honestly support abortion, but then say that murdering any human is wrong.
I mean you kill me at conception stage or 40 year old stage, you're still killing me any way you want to look at it. It boggles my mind how an Atheist can honestly think abortion is okay.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
I mean at least a theist can say, well God doesn't actually bring the soul into the body until . . . God doesn't actually consider it human until it leaves the womb . . . but if you don't even believe in God that essentially means that there is no real definition of human life that starting at any stage, which essentially means we are human life at the moment we start developing and growing, that process starts at conception.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
To you we are the same as the newly conceived fetus, just merely at a higher stage of development. I mean without God, there is no divine definition of life or humanity. We are as the animals, only smarter. Thus to kill a newly conceived child is the tantamount to killing a long ago conceived child because we are essentially the same, only in a later stage of life.
If it's wrong to kill me now at this stage of life, certainly it's wrong to kill me at the conception stage of life.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
Honestly, as an Atheist, I cannot see how you could support abortion in any way. To you life does not begin because of some divine power that breaths the breath of life into a body.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
Well, that's what you're looking at when you're a pro-lifer who believes human life starts at conception and is every bit as worthy as citizens under the constitution and the unalienable rights we all pretend to believe in this nation.
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
It's not outlandish when the fetus is an unborn human being.
What would you do if new born babies were painlessly euthanized and/or their nerves at the base of the spinal column for pain were severed, and then scientific experiments were done on them? Would you approve of this? Would you argue against it? Would you consider it to be comparable to the Holocaust, or if not the entire Holocaust, perhaps a piece of it?
NewnotesJR 8 months ago
I give up I'm guessing transvestite!
cchanderson 8 months ago
To answer the question, "Can a...person survive if you kill half of their cells?"
It depends on which cells you're killing. We lose cells all the time. Seven years from now, the only cells you'll still have that you have now will be in your brain. So, really, it depends on which cells you kill, and depending on which, over what period of time you do it. This is not an experiment I would recommend trying, however, because even if the person survives, he won't be healthy.
TheCeejReturns 8 months ago
You're in a burning building. Before you are two doors that are partially blocked by debris. Unblocking Door A will permanently block Door B, and vice versa. Behind Door A is a rolling, self-powered freezer containing ten embryos. Behind Door B is a single toddler. Which door do you unblock?
butchkitties 8 months ago
@butchkitties Now that sure is an interesting, yet asinine question there. Self-powered freezer huh? So it would be safe to come back later after the fire and fish those little buggers out? I'd have to go with Door B then. Not a hard riddle there.
jadencore 8 months ago
@jadencore It's a variation of the trolley dilemma, which is pretty commonly utilized in cognitive science research. The "self-powered" part was just to avoid people choosing based on the idea that the embryos would not survive either way. The main point is to examine whether people who say they think embryos are people would make choices consistent with that declaration.
butchkitties 8 months ago
@butchkitties I see. That's a pretty handy riddle to have actually. And any arguments that spring to mind just emphasize the fact that embryo's aren't human anyway. I'll try that out. Cheers mate.
jadencore 8 months ago
You are right. I have caused genocides simply by washing, stabbed to death and digested lots of tomatoes, fried to death lots of potatoes, I have been a complice to mass murder by grinding by eating bread, I am a unconscious mass murderer due to pollution and masturbation and let lots and lots of sicamore seeds die on the street refusing to rescue and sow them. Another case of mass murder is eating walnuts. Cutting down walnuts is absolutely illegal in our country.
Alexafinarul 9 months ago
I have a question for the christian fundementalist anti-abortion folks: If there was a scientific method to determine before birth if it is gay or not, would you abort it ?
TheThordir 9 months ago
@TheThordir
at least for me, the short awnser is no
stevo6456 9 months ago
Tell me, have you ever seen a video of a little baby getting dismembered and slaughtered inside them womb, after the nervous system and the internal organs start developing?
Since you don't think that a fetus should have any rights and that it should be legal to kill it up until the day it's born because it's not separate from the woman yet, or it's not capable of the consciousness of an adult, then why shouldn't be legal to euthanise them a few days after they're born like Obama does?
rebelq1 10 months ago
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@rebelq1 you sir, are being willfully ignorant.
VetinariClone 9 months ago
@rebelq1
buddy, watch the video again. You are put words into his mouth. I never heard him say all abortions should be legal, did you? He just explained how it doesn't make sense to call a single-celled organism a human being. That doesn't imply that its ethical to abort a baby/fetus the day before its expected to be born. Have you ever seen the "murder" of a single-celled "human?" probably wouldn't draw the same emotional reaction from you as the type of abortion you describe.
mellamosean 9 months ago
Embryonic Holocaust?? I love that band!!
TheSkuLLcomedyShow 10 months ago
I wish Bush had retained his aversion to 'destroying human life' at the time he sanciotned invasions of Iraq.
1982mockingbird1982 11 months ago
If it was you could make an argument for disposing of people with low I.Q or brain damage. Tend to agree with your mother. I understand your stance but you need to use different wording. Don't get me wrong every woman should have the option. Freezing embryos shoudn't happen in the first place, it's all for profit including fertility treatments.
shawndonald78 11 months ago
I wonder what your opinion on euthanizing the elderly, handicapped or people who are mentally deficient ect. They no longer have all the components that make them fully developed human beings right? Which is more ethical, ending life that is no longer productive or ending life that is full of potential? Single cell i agree, fetus no. Big difference between fetus and clump of cells. Because a brain is undeveloped is not an excuse.
shawndonald78 11 months ago
@shawndonald78 The elderly, handicapped even the mentally handicapped still have more cognitive ability then a fetus at 3 months. Even my grandmother with dementia had more of her brain working then a fetus.
Plus there is no longer that whole mother's welfare thing to consider since these people are not in a womb, dependent on the good health of a host organism.
Her argument is based on the idea that humanity is not based on an unprovable soul or what kind of meat it is.
booley 11 months ago
''It sounds like (you) left your parents behind in all matters of the intellect, not just religion'' Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion
lizichell2 11 months ago
This debate will be settled when we die:-)
SanctioFides 1 year ago
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Let me get this straight, you think the jews are stopping stem cell research?
TheWanderinSoul 1 year ago
abortion is holocaust. there has been over 50million babies slaughtered for most reasons. thats 50million who wont be paying into social security
Benjaminb46 1 year ago
@Benjaminb46 What about the 22 million abortions a year in China? 14 million surgical, 6 million by pill, and 2 million illegally in the 'back ally' or false clinics? Sad to say that those 22 million 'babies' won't be turned to be cheap labor for American Over-seas workers!
cuzinoftheotherworld 1 year ago
@cuzinoftheotherworld What about em? Yeah its sad. But i would rather work hard all my life than never live at all
Benjaminb46 1 year ago
@Benjaminb46 "What about em?" At first I thought you were concerned for the 'millions of babies' and human life. Now I see you were concerned about the economy and the social security checks. Sorry, my mistake.
cuzinoftheotherworld 11 months ago
@cuzinoftheotherworld No i said what about em because i wasnt sure where you were going with them. i said the millions killed in the united states and you said What about the 22 million abortions in China? How am i supposed to respond to that? Jeez calm down and quit assuming.
Benjaminb46 11 months ago
"Destroying human life in the name of saving human life is not ethical".
I was in the Marines 2001 - 2005. Trust me, Bush did not give a fuck about human life.
melancholyid 1 year ago 22
@melancholyid i agree on your point about piece of shit bush, but its about single cell being compared to humans.
dillinger9999 5 months ago
amazing
dillinger9999 5 months ago
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@melancholyid if you dont want to do what it takes to protect our country dont be in the armed forces..
pholmes113 4 months ago
I'm prolife not because I'm religious, but because I believe it is the job of the government to protect the lives of its people. Regardless of whether fetuses have brains, can feel, or are equal to human beings, they will become humans. Taking that chance for life away from someone/something/whatever you would like to call them is serious. But I'm with you about the fertility clinics. They should go towards cures rather than be wasted.
deathtoawkward 1 year ago
This is what he get when he elece someone with a C average and who's a fundamentalist retard running the united states back then. Lets just hope we never have another fuckung idiot running america.
LOCUSTHATER666 1 year ago 3
@ZJemptv That response to theacidpulp is extremely smug and rude. That was an insightful comment, undeserving of your response.
lynx882 1 year ago
3:09 Our perception of the physical world is entirely an interpretation of a collection of what we call electrical signals which are given to us by inputs (we call our senses). So we don't and can't know the physical world is real.
5:29 At the moment... we can't thaw someone out without harming them. But when they can, this point of yours will be worthless.
luno44 1 year ago
"Can you freeze a Jewish person for nine years, and then revive them?"
No, but you can nail one to a cross until he's dead and he'll come back to life three days later!
*ba-dum-chssh!*
OuroborosChoked 1 year ago
embryonic stem cell research is becoming outdated anyway, so this debate is becoming irrelevant. Scientists have actually been able to transform skin cells into blood cells without even going through the process of converting them into cell with pluri-potentialitym thus suggesting that all cells very well may have such potential regardless of their status as a stem cell.
technopagan724 1 year ago
You make a good case, but you're wrong that there's no evidence for the soul. Blind people since birth have been able to see during a near death/out of body experience. This is evidence that consciousness (or soul) can exist independant of the body.
resedoton 1 year ago
@resedoton There are a thousand more rational explanations as to why blind people can sometimes "see" than "because they have a soul".
"In humans, we know that if we disrupt the [brain] region where vision, sense of motion, orientation in the Earth's gravitational field, and knowing the position of our body all come together, then out-of-body experiences can be caused literally by the flip of a switch" -Kevin Nelson, professor of neurology at the University of Kentucky
seymourLlama 1 year ago
quit mentioning putting jews in the freezer, don't give their over-clocked monkey brains any ideas
kilgonus 1 year ago
Im to stupid to make up my own mind, thank you
noleenow 1 year ago
This is the hardest 'girl or guy' game ever
noleenow 1 year ago
Your are great.
CantTrustAnyone 1 year ago
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good...."
Cayvmann 1 year ago 12
@Cayvmann Every sperm is ejaculated in original sin.
Khyrid 6 months ago
@Khyrid Sorry you believe in such crap as original sin, but even so, this would not be part of the original sin in Christian theology. That was passed down supposedly from the sins of Adam and Eve, which supposedly we were freed from when Jesus, blah blah blah.
Cayvmann 5 months ago
@Cayvmann Was a joke.
Khyrid 5 months ago