@KeithTruth It's quite a tough sell when you have no biblical evidence for it (and don't even get me started on the whole "full of grace-kecharitomene" thing), and you even have NUMEROUS fathers denying it, either explicitly (Chrysostom, Tertullian, Origen) or implicitly (Justin, Clement of Alexandria).
But, sure, this was a truth handed down orally from one generation to the next. Why not?
@egwpisteuw Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
She disobeyed God she knew what she was doing her lust deceived her by the serpent's Seduction---God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
I believe the TRUE Miryam, her confession:"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit exulted in God My Savior. For He looked upon the humiliation [tapeinōsis] of His slave woman."Lk1:46-48
tapeinōsis = 1) lowness, low estate 2) metaphorically a) spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt.
Miryam confessed she was a vile guilty sinner needing to be saved by God her Savior.
That Roman Catholic "Mary Queen of Heaven", is a perverse seducing spirit.
Nice analysis. That doctrine of Mary's sinlessness always seemed to me to have come out of left field and you just confirmed that suspicion. I imagine that the Catholic theologians that came up with the doctrine failed to understand the obivious explanation of how Christ could be born of a woman who was a sinner: the sin nature is passed through the male not the female:
@pretoshohmoofc 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
@pretoshohmoofc Gen 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
@pretoshohmoofc Rom 8:21 that the *creation* itself will be liberated from its bondage to ((decay)) and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Gen 3:17..((cursed)) [is] the *ground* for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Hbr 1:11 They will ((perish)), but you remain; *they* will all ((wear out like a garment)). 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.
@pretoshohmoofc The Curse of the first Adam jumped to all creation but the Blood of the last Adam reconciles all things back to it's Creator God. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
@CristoYcruz --->1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Oh, that is a cool verse in the Greek as the first "deceived" relating to Adam is ἀπατάω (apatao) but the second "deceived" is (in some manuscripts) ἐξαπατάω (exapatao) which is a an intensified form of the same word. Thus, the Adam knew what he was doing, but the woman was "totally deceived" she had no absolutely no idea of what she was doing.
@egwpisteuw Oh, that is a cool verse in the Greek as the first "deceived" relating to Adam is ἀπατάω (apatao) but the second "deceived" is (in some manuscripts) ἐξαπατάω (exapatao) which is a an intensified form of the same word. Thus, the Adam knew what he was doing, but the woman was "totally deceived" she had no absolutely no idea of what she was doing.
What I understand according to the bible the woman(Eve) sinned first than the man.
@CristoYcruz ---->What I understand according to the bible the woman(Eve) sinned first than the man.
Ah, that is a subtle point. Look at Gen 3:6:
...she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband WITH HER, and he ate.
Adam was with Eve, and watched her eat the fruit, which she, being totally deceived, did not understand that what she was doing was sin, but He knew full well that it was, but nevertheless, did not try to stop her. Thus Adam sinned first...
@egwpisteuw Yes, right, Eve initiated her disobedience--1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience;
She knew what she was doing because God warned her, she went over God's command and was the first to sin not the man. You're entitled to believe whatever you want but the bible doesn't teach what you're claiming.
@CristoYcruz ---->She knew what she was doing because God warned her..
Ah, but Satan messed with her mind and convinced her she was not sinning:
The LORD God commanded the man, saying...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Gen 2:16-17
The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! Gen 3:4
...the woman being totally deceived, has become in the transgression. 1 Tim 2:14
@egwpisteuw Ah, but Satan messed with her mind and convinced her she was not sinning:
And she believed the lie(words) of the serpent over the command(words) of God she was forewarned but she chose to disobey God and obey her new god, meaning she sinned willingly, she had foreknowledge of sin and death---but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'
I can't believe roman apologists would say all Fathers said she was sinless. That is insane.
KeithTruth 2 months ago
@KeithTruth It's quite a tough sell when you have no biblical evidence for it (and don't even get me started on the whole "full of grace-kecharitomene" thing), and you even have NUMEROUS fathers denying it, either explicitly (Chrysostom, Tertullian, Origen) or implicitly (Justin, Clement of Alexandria).
But, sure, this was a truth handed down orally from one generation to the next. Why not?
msm1876 2 months ago
@egwpisteuw Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
She disobeyed God she knew what she was doing her lust deceived her by the serpent's Seduction---God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
Luke 1:47 "and my (Mary) spirit rejoices in God my Savior,"
A sinner needs a savior.
pretoshohmoofc 2 months ago
I believe the TRUE Miryam, her confession:"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit exulted in God My Savior. For He looked upon the humiliation [tapeinōsis] of His slave woman."Lk1:46-48
tapeinōsis = 1) lowness, low estate 2) metaphorically a) spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt.
Miryam confessed she was a vile guilty sinner needing to be saved by God her Savior.
That Roman Catholic "Mary Queen of Heaven", is a perverse seducing spirit.
barbsinclair 2 months ago
Nice analysis. That doctrine of Mary's sinlessness always seemed to me to have come out of left field and you just confirmed that suspicion. I imagine that the Catholic theologians that came up with the doctrine failed to understand the obivious explanation of how Christ could be born of a woman who was a sinner: the sin nature is passed through the male not the female:
in Adam all die 1 Cor 15:22 - not Eve
sin entered the world through one man Rom 5:12 - not woman
Hence, the Virgin Birth!
egwpisteuw 2 months ago
@egwpisteuw in Adam all die 1 Cor 15:22 - not Eve
sin entered the world through one man Rom 5:12 - not woman
Hence, the Virgin Birth!
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@CristoYcruz I agree..We call this the Federal Headship.
pretoshohmoofc 2 months ago
@pretoshohmoofc 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@pretoshohmoofc Gen 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@CristoYcruz That's correct. She couldn't have been without sin because she went through great suffering. (Gen 3:17) which was caused by a curse.
Good point Cristos
pretoshohmoofc 2 months ago
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@pretoshohmoofc Rom 8:21 that the *creation* itself will be liberated from its bondage to ((decay)) and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Gen 3:17..((cursed)) [is] the *ground* for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Hbr 1:11 They will ((perish)), but you remain; *they* will all ((wear out like a garment)). 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@pretoshohmoofc The Curse of the first Adam jumped to all creation but the Blood of the last Adam reconciles all things back to it's Creator God. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@CristoYcruz --->1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Oh, that is a cool verse in the Greek as the first "deceived" relating to Adam is ἀπατάω (apatao) but the second "deceived" is (in some manuscripts) ἐξαπατάω (exapatao) which is a an intensified form of the same word. Thus, the Adam knew what he was doing, but the woman was "totally deceived" she had no absolutely no idea of what she was doing.
egwpisteuw 2 months ago
@egwpisteuw Oh, that is a cool verse in the Greek as the first "deceived" relating to Adam is ἀπατάω (apatao) but the second "deceived" is (in some manuscripts) ἐξαπατάω (exapatao) which is a an intensified form of the same word. Thus, the Adam knew what he was doing, but the woman was "totally deceived" she had no absolutely no idea of what she was doing.
What I understand according to the bible the woman(Eve) sinned first than the man.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@CristoYcruz ---->What I understand according to the bible the woman(Eve) sinned first than the man.
Ah, that is a subtle point. Look at Gen 3:6:
...she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband WITH HER, and he ate.
Adam was with Eve, and watched her eat the fruit, which she, being totally deceived, did not understand that what she was doing was sin, but He knew full well that it was, but nevertheless, did not try to stop her. Thus Adam sinned first...
egwpisteuw 2 months ago
@egwpisteuw Yes, right, Eve initiated her disobedience--1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience;
She knew what she was doing because God warned her, she went over God's command and was the first to sin not the man. You're entitled to believe whatever you want but the bible doesn't teach what you're claiming.
CristoYcruz 2 months ago
@CristoYcruz ---->She knew what she was doing because God warned her..
Ah, but Satan messed with her mind and convinced her she was not sinning:
The LORD God commanded the man, saying...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Gen 2:16-17
The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! Gen 3:4
...the woman being totally deceived, has become in the transgression. 1 Tim 2:14
egwpisteuw 2 months ago
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@egwpisteuw Ah, but Satan messed with her mind and convinced her she was not sinning:
And she believed the lie(words) of the serpent over the command(words) of God she was forewarned but she chose to disobey God and obey her new god, meaning she sinned willingly, she had foreknowledge of sin and death---but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'
CristoYcruz 2 months ago