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  • Obama and his thugocrats have pounded this economy and country into the brink of a double - dip recession or depression . Every policy and decision has been a failure. 15 more months of hope and Change !

  • ahaha 00:11 he tries to be funny by making a face, and nobody gives a f

  • "UFO Disclosure A Global Deception Conspiracy " ON

    YOUTUBE is a disclosure of major lies and with held

    information regarding life outside of Earth. Footage containing statements

    from, military personnel, astronauts, American presidents and politicians.

    + credible news footage. The compilation contains revelations

    regarding awareness of life beyond Earth along with it's current and ongoing

    presence which is being hidden from the public + more.

  • I don't even want to imagine what things would be like now if he were President...

  • @GiveCourage Better than obama has done thats for sure

  • Alex Jones warns about the a potential false flag attack. Counter-terrorism

    expert Dr. Steve Pieczenik concurs with Alex’s outlook, urges the good men and

    women inside the system to say no to this shameful and dangerous tactic artice

    on InfoWarsDOTCOM "Official Government UFO Disclosure Has Begun" article available

    on the front page of DivineCosmosDOTCOM

  • I like how Dave asks the hard hitting questions. "So why did you bail on me the first time?"

  • Having been a POV in Vietnam doesn't make him less of an idiot asshole.

  • NO BODY MESSES WITH D.LIDDY!!!

  • The McCains of this world are banging the porn stars, while the rest of us are getting the crabs.

  • John McCain!! The closest thing to Donkey and Elephant hybrid!

    I am the Noble Elephant, and I say that you need to join my cause to defeat those damn stubborn donkeys. Follow me on the road to victory.

  • Senator John McCain on Newtonian Physics.

  • @TheNobleElephant fuck republicans..you probably dont even make enough to be considered republican

  • he's a great guy and all but this election seemed to be more about ethnicity. and no one wants sarah palin as vp

  • This is for the moron who commented about the way McCain moves his arms. McCain spent 5½ years in captivity as a POW in North Vietnam. He was shot down in his Skyhawk dive bomber on Oct.26,1967and was taken prisoner with fractures in his right leg and both arms. He received minimal care and was kept in wretched conditions. Because he was a Navy flier and the son of the admiral who commanded the war in the Pacific he came in came in "for special attention". A great American, not a dips* like you.

  • @stagn41 John McCain was also dropping flaming napalm on vllages in Vietnam that burned the flesh off Vietnamese women and children ... yeah hero? and later on he cheated on his dying wife with Cindy ... yeah hero ? anyways .... NO ONE OVER 50 should be in ANY political position. The old hawk-goats are the ones that start wars ....

  • @hpcwsd shit aint that the truth..to bad it will never change though.we live in a society where people that do wrong things are praised...and the people that do the right the thing are nobodys

  • @stagn41 great american?hah yeah fuckin right..name one thing that he did for this country that was good?..cause the vietnam war was a waste..two of my uncles serverd in it..and thats what they told me.."that war was bullshit and we had no business going there in the first place"..thats exactly what they said...so fuck you, great american my ass..

  • Republicans UNITED in OPPOSING emergency benefit extensions for 2 million Americans who lost their jobs due to corporate greed.

    Republicans also UNITED in OPPOSING the 9/11 Response Act, a measure that would have provided help for the 9/11 Heroes who suffered permament health problems.

    Republicans are UNITED in OPPOSITION to the improvement of our economy, simply because they HATE OBAMA (for being a non-white Democrat with a vision) and they want POWER at any cost.

    Have you NO DECENCY?

  • if i could go back i wouldent have even voted there both fuckups

  • Reporter: President McCain, Can you explain why our country was just bombed by terrorists?

    McCain: Can I answer? Can I answer?

    Reporter: Yes of course...

    McCain: I screwed up. Hehehehehehe.

  • Hehe, his arms make me giggle. He reminds me of a Tyrannosaurus Rex! xD

  • step 1. go to 0:00 and pause

    step 2. hold the left arrow key

    step 3. press up while holding left

    step 4. enjoy snake

  • @kissmyoradora83 I never would have found that out o.o

  • At Least John McCain is an honest honorable man

  • @zqzqpj

    I was going to say the same thing

  • @zqzqpj on which planet?

  • Who cares about politics when illuminati runs fuckin everything

  • Letterman freak, we all kno u r a democrat ! Now I know u r STUPID !!

  • @rockstarrist your stupid for being a republican, you honestly think republicans care about your dumbass?republicans care about themselves only nobody else yeah they want tax cuts, but only for the rich not for the true heroes in this society like fire fighters or policemen or even teachers..nope they'ed rather lay they off so then could save a few bucks here and there..but yeah republicans are the way to go huh

  • @edgranillo true words from a true american, much respect for ya edgranillo

  • @rockstarrist Wait let me guess your a republican?

  • I definitely don't like John McCain.

    Him being "old" isn't one of them. I don't want a young president. An older president has experience and wisdom (some good, some bad).

  • mccain isn't very funny.

  • he admitted it at the end, politics is a stupid game to get people to think their representative are serious when in reality its just a big fn expensive facade.

  • He looks like a cyborg!

  • david letterman=same old demorcrat. try to interupt you so you cant say anything because what you have to say is not important

  • :52 that makes many screw ups, first was running for president, then picking sarah palin

  • david letterman is a ass hole

  • @imyoung2 "an" ass is still one of the vowels.

  • SOMEONE had some 'splaining to do, eh? XD

    David Letterman and Craig Ferguson FOREVER!

  • MCCAIN WAS EASY TO MAKE FUN OF,...WHY COULDNT DAVE DO IT ?

  • im sure if mccain didnt choose palin as his running mate he wold have gotten more votes i would go as far as to say he would have won.

    the obama hanging with terrorist comment im sure it was becasue of palin he try to add to it. and his recent side of things as well im sure due to palin.

    prior to plain mccain was more moderate but after he is a bit more conservative

  • "GOIN TO DENNYS THE GRAND SLAM" lmao old ass muah fucka

  • I gotta be true, I actually respected John still coming on and knowing he would get some jabs from David and ultimately just saying he screwed up.

  • Sooooooo, how are all you libtards liking obama? Oh that's right, you are not paying attention to this socialist marxist lenonist deficit spender are you? RETARDS!

  • @deboobtube lol it doesn't matter, they still try to tell themselves obamas doing a great job. In reality they know better.

  • Wow, couldn't they find a more able republican? What ever happened to the charismatic business man that could sell ice to eskimos? This guy seems slow, weak, his rhetorics seems confused and his laugh insincere - no wonder that Obama won.

  • I screwed up

  • Comment removed

  • Letterman screwed over McCain haha... I LOVE IT! he asked him about Gordon Liddy, and he was like *god i dont want people to know im friends with a fraud* "gordon whooo?" even though he knew him well... but then he was like *Oh shit, they think im a douche cuz im saying i dont know him!*... "yes, gordon! I know him, and im not embarrassed to know him!"

  • If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "I SCREWED UP" from John McCain's mouth.

  • "I screwed up". thats the most honest thing I have ever heard any single politician ever say. That's about all i give him credit for. xD

  • @StormofBladeZ The Curse of the Clydesdales. The name of my movie script.

  • That man has no neck

  • thats commendable. he didnt give any excuses he just said "I screwed up"

  • Go Dave, Go!!!

  • cbs would out this on their youtube. hey cbs, fuck you

  • the guy served this country with honor and was a war hero and is one of the few politicians who has any integrity so show some fucking respect. attackiing someone in a discussion as opposed to attcking his position on issues is the number one thing one does when he/she has no argument.

  • @kwhite121 He also carried on an adulterous affair while his wife who waited for him for years when he was a POW was in Intensive Care for a near-fatal automobile wreck...Didja catch that, Skippy?!

  • Letterman is an idiot

  • these ads suck

  • that man looks like his own parody...eyes are close together like G.W.Bush, an incidence for a lower form of intelligence...small fucking forehead like his brain has the size of an orange...

    I love the USA, they make me laugh. having the choice between this and the democrats...wow. If we had this in germany the republicans (which are forbidden in germany btw cuz they are right radicals) would get like 1,2%. And in the USA these monkey people (rep.) actually win sometimes. scary. palin scary

  • @SaintUdnitz yea cause germany is such an awesome country that was crushed twice by the USA in WWI and WWII and if im not mistaken both presidents of teh time were democrat. the reason that back in the day democrats were not teh pussys they are today. the party went in an entirely different direction during teh 60's. which is the reason for the huge split in voters now days it used to be mostly democrat

  • @MrCpe9775 and a bunch of rice eating natives crushed you in vietnam, how's that?

    btw the USA would have never entered WWII if you hadn't been attacked by the japanese. get your facts straight.

  • @SaintUdnitz actually the vietnam war all came down to politics, if u look at the numbers it was like 1.1 million nva killed compared to 55-58,000 US troops. Thats like 9-15 nva/vietcong to one us soldier/ marine...We could have one vietnam not to mention the war is still debatable on who actually won considering we signed a treated with the NVA, in which they violated when they stormed Saigon and started killing all its residents.....

  • @SaintUdnitz we take it easy on our enemies. we completely rebuilt japan. decided to pull out of vietnam instead of crushing and entire group of people into oblivion. We feel sorry for muslims and give them everything even though they hate us. we have the power to destroy any single nation or people in conflict. we dont because we are so nice. so be glad americans are kind or you may be living in a territory of teh US instead of Germany.

  • @MrCpe9775 I was about to give you a thumbs down because your not very knowledgeable on what your talking about, but I'm a Christian and don't believe the Islamic faith should be shown any regard by the U.S because of my faith being the foundation of this nation. However, Mulims aren't the enemy, it's Muslim EXTREMIST your thinking about... Oh Btw, I agree with Hurley5647, "your so retarded it should be illegal." Lol, sorry guy.

  • @Cspan1986 not knowledgable ok. im a history major there padre. the US's biggest downfall is our kindness. your faith is not teh foundation the foundation is relgious freedom you turd biggot. im talking about the muslim faith im talking about extreminist and if you talkj to most they are extreminist bc its the way they are raised and cultivated. so try again chief when you say im not knowledgable you better make sure i cant burn you.

  • @MrCpe9775 Ok, I'll try it again. YOUR NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE!!! I should've elaborated that our country's morals were similar to Christian principalities, sorry. However, how can you say most Muslims are extremist when you know some but dont know the majority?? I know many Muslims and they say thier cultivated to live a life according to the laws of the prophet Muhommad; serving Allah. Sorry you cant burn me, moron. You should've majored in English lit. A college student with bad diction is a LIAR.

  • @Cspan1986 Are you serious. Muslisms are "cultivated" to believe we are all infidels and we have to convert or die. Thats what they believe weather they say it or not even americanized muslisms. You say im not knowledgable but you can't come up with anything but insults. You are wrong your arguement is biased and based on opinion so anything you say would be inadmissable in a debate. Sorry you lose again and have been burned again. dont reply to me. your lack of legit info is making you stupid.

  • @MrCpe9775 You think Muslims "believe we are all infidels and we have to convert or die" and im the one making an inadmissable argument? Lets finish this. Research my argument concerning the difference between Muslims and Muslim Extremist. It'll back up every point I made. No research will support your argument that all Muslims are extremist. They feel the same way about their religion as anyone else. Christians believe all ppl should accept Christ or they'll go to hell, Are they extremist too?

  • @Cspan1986 i didnt say they were all extreminist. they do however believe we are all infidels and we need to convert or die. thats in their Qur'an. They all believe that but they dont all act out. if you look at my last statement it also said that. I have been overseas and worked with muslims directly they respect us and want out help but they still see us as infidels and will need to convert or die. Nice people but they will never accept anything other than what they have been taught

  • @Cspan1986 they also will never lower their belief standards like christians do. your still wrong you will always be wrong. your some punk kid with a libral view point and no real world experience. So please dont respond your ignorance is getting really old. you have no way to back up your arguement other than I said so. I have used their bible and actual accounts from real life. so just stop your not on any level to argue. by the way how old are you 19 and a sophmore in college i thought so.

  • @MrCpe9775 You just contradicted yourself, caught you. "I didnt say they were all extremist." All the descriptions you've label Muslims with is the definition of an extremist, IDIOT. I proved myself right & everything you said wrong and your still just saying "you have no argument, Im right & your wrong, you child." Btw, im 24 with much life experience and struggle to make it to where I am today. So, listen lil boy, do disrespect your elders no more. Im done proving you wrong though. DEUCES!

  • @Cspan1986 no you are an idiot. a 24 year old child you still live with your mom and dad and have no eductaion. you probably do drugs and drink and party way to much. you will never amount to anything because you dont know what your talking about and obviosuly have no reading comprehesion skills. by the way im 23 your no elder and im a soldier with alot more life experience than you. you fucking brat. dont respond i win you lose face it turd.

  • @MrCpe9775.........Really Captain Bravado? You chide someone for having no education (which you don't really know) and then misspell a simple word like 'education'? Please don't think you are chock full of "experience" because you chose to kill for a living. You moron soldiers all seem to think you're better then everyone else because you are "defending our country". The actual fact is that 72% of enlistees join because they don't have the grades for college. That IS fact.

  • @ajimedina77 really where did you find that stat at. i have a college education. by teh way it is ok to misspell words on youtube if you want a proper paper then we could do this another way. over youtube however it is informal and im not going to run spell check on it. fact is i joined teh military to learn how to survive when society collapses dipshit. what are you going to do with your vast knowledge. COWER and die.

  • @MrCpe9775 knowledge is power

  • @Cspan1986 You are a MAJOR loon!

  • @Kamisamadesu1 And your a LAME. No real comment, just an insult. Shut up you clown.

  • should have been president not the joker we have now

  • @Tlax13

    since we're imagining what might have been, why not aim a little higher even.

    The GOP couldn't have nominated someone better? Before the Obama brush had really caught fire. Or maybe this is just the way the whole play was written by the real rulers of Earth. CBS. ( Just kidding, CBS! )

  • Hey thanks .. this is just what I was looking for to remind me who NOT to vote for.

  • @DrGumby3000 even with him president it couldnt get much worse than it is now.

  • roll a j xomiakas you're gonna shit yourself. 

  • Nowadays there is no need to believe in bronze age myths, but only when it comes to society. When it comes to rulers it is a pain in the ass, knowing that the majority of voters are theists. However as the last theistic generations disappear, giving birth to new ones, which are exposed to the real information, and facts about the cosmos, it is just a matter of time until this problem is solved. The theistic side will become the minority - now that is a Golden Fact. This is Evolution at its best.

  • @xomiakas Smh, Well all have opinions ofo what we think is right and wrong. So i wont knock your beliefs if you dont knock mines.. I just believe that a world without Religion would be a lot more chaos.. But who am I? Just a guy from the internet with an opinion.

  • @Kward1718 thats a good argument cause it can go both ways..for one, an individual can say that religion is bad because it causes war's and genocides and stuff in that matter..on another hand someone can say that religion is good because it establishes right from wrong and gives people sanity.

  • @xomiakas Just a question.. But how do you think the Human race was formed or created? Enlighten me i am anxious to know.

  • @Kward1718 which human race? Modern humans - Homo Sapiens? Through the long and gradual process of evolution we evolved from bacteria to primates to our current stage and are continuing to develop. Is that what you wanted to hear? You haven;t heard of it?? Fucking evangelical schools...

  • Nowadays there is no need to believe in bronze age myths, but only when it comes to society. When it comes to rulers it is a pain in the ass, knowing that the majority of voters are theists. However as the last theistic generations disappear, giving birth to new ones, which are exposed to the real information, and facts about the cosmos, it is just a matter of time until this problem is solved. The theistic side will become the minority - now that is a Golden Fact. This is Evolution at its best.

  • Nowadays there is no need to believe in bronze age myths, but only when it comes to society. When it comes to rulers it is a pain in the ass, knowing that the majority of voters are theists. However as the last theistic generations disappear, giving birth to new ones, which are exposed to the real information, and facts about the cosmos, it is just a matter of time until this problem is solved. The theistic side will become the minority - now that is a Golden Fact.

  • 3.1 Think about "In god we trust". It is stupid to believe that god(lets say he exists) would support one continent, one nation, and not the other one. And you can't deny one fact - No outspoken atheist or agnostic can become a senator, president. IT IS CURRENTLY IMPOSSIBLE. Because the majority of US citizens are retarded evangelical motherfuckers who don't know the difference between left and right. Europe is turning atheist, GB is atheist, US will come before Africa. Statisticly - last.

  • fuck him.

  • Love Obama. I voted for him, but McCain is a cute old man.

  • McCain-asshole

  • jew

  • Obama and his Mao Tse Tung Fan Club is the worst regime this great country has ever experienced . His economic policies have wrecked us. He bows down to the rest of the world ! In Nov. the American people will vent their righteous anger on the liberal-democratic -socialists ! and you @Chickenjuggle can go to Venezuela !

  • i like lettermen but he dosent let people talk most of the time

  • He is so creepy. A stunning likeness to Uncle Fester from the Adams Family

  • If John McCain got elected president, he would have broken Ronald Reagan's record for oldest person elected president.

  • @eugene680 Not to mention his record for most senile president

  • @eugene680 ronald regan was the best president.

  • @myfamousone24

    lol spell reagan correctly first dumbass

  • @theheavyweight2008 im sorry i forgot the A in his name. And its true....dumbass.

  • @eugene680 Ronald Reagan SHOULD NOT be mentioned in this video. PS: atleast Reagan had a hairline LOL

  • jaaaja bullshit fuck you whay dont you be a President.

  • McCain and Palin would be a billion times better than the pair of knuckleheads we got now ! 

  • @bosstheross Go back to Italy, Benito.

  • @bosstheross=TEABAGGER!

  • lol

    I am starting to believe Letterman was the reason McCain lost.

  • You sold your morals and integrity for money mcCain.The jew OWNZ you.

  • Litterman, stick to slap stick and stay out of politics!

  • McCain is a fucking idiot..

  • @SharifLeetz

    Have you ever been 70 years old and on national tv? Didn't think so. Shutup.

  • @tubub

    Doesn't have anything to do with him being 70 years old smartypants.. it has everything to do with him talking dumb shit. Saying Obama has contact with terrorists when he met that dude when he was 8 years old.

    Listen to how David Letterman responds to that comment.. couldn't have said it better myself. This is just about talking shit about Obama when you really don't hav any shit to talk about..

    Thus.. McCain is a fucking idiot

  • @SharifLeetz That f---in idiot spent six years in the hanoi hilton, was elected to the senate four times, and almost became president of the United States. Only when you accomplish all that as well do you have the right to insult someone like that.

  • I haven't had this much fun since I shot a guy in the face and maid him apologize for getting in the way of My shell

  • Obama and his Mao Tse Tung Fan Club are the worst anti-constitional chicago thug kabal thats ever been ! Nov. will bring disaster for Dems. and 2 more years for Oflunko !

  • Mc Cain will be dead by the time of the next election and Sarah Palin will have spun a web of stupidity so thick that it will be impossible to get her out of it. Obama has every chance of winning a second term thankfully. God bless America.

  • @keithc1977 AMEN to that!!!

  • Yeah, God bless America. Eventually, Obama and his socialistic self will prohibit the use of that phrase and it will become "Allah Bless America." Is that what you want?? Obama is ridiculous and he will not have another term in office. Thank God.

  • @CAHop90 What nonsense!! Give Obama a break. It takes a while to clean up eight years of Republician shit, but he's getting there.

  • @CAHop90 You're an idiot. Allah still means god, why does it matter what language it's in?.

  • @dchains Actually, Allah is the "little g" god that is nonexistent and made up in the minds of man. The God being referenced in "God Bless America" is the one true God. Now, you are entitled to believe what you believe, so this is only my opinion.... therefore, you should respect that as I would yours. No need to go name-calling. It gets you nowhere.

  • @CAHop90 They're both the same God no matter how they say it, they worship only one God and that's the same one everyone almost every other Religion does, i personally believe Religion is destructive and pointless, it divides people and creats mindless hypocritical sheep. Im personally am skeptical of there being an invisible man in the sky who watches over everyone, especially considering how fucked up and corrupt this country is. But as you said, believe what you want.

  • @CAHop90 1. Christopher Hitchens destroyed the respect for religion some time ago. 2. Religion is bullshit, it is the result of human stupidity, it makes people ignorant, stupid and slows down humanity in many ways. \

  • @xomiakas Can you imagine life without religion? I know we all grow up and can see the flaws in religion and how some of it cant be true.. But outside of your ignorance imagine a life without religion? What do you think the crime rate would be like? Murder wouldnt be illegal. Thou shall not kill.. So intelligent articulate people, what would stop that broke person from killing you and taking everything you have.. Without religion life would be chaos. So be thankful for religion.

  • @Kward1718 So what you're saying is that morality wouldn't exist without religion? Hitchslap: there's no way that morality came from religion. Basically it all came from The Golden Rule, which started at the time when human primates were learning to cooperate to survive. By the way what would you think would have happened during those 1000 years of darkness if there was no religion? The "darkness" part wouldn't have existed and we would be 1000 years more advanced than we are now.

  • @Kward1718 <<< thats more than enough time to achieve higher moral standards we have now. Without religion bronze age would be chaos. Religion was good for one thing - keeping people in order in a world without science, to spread war and mischief in the names of various types of man-looking gods, which were created by delusional people, always in a deserted land, they always ended up in war. The majority of humanities wars were in the name of religion.

  • @CAHop90 3. The separation between church and state disappears when it comes to $. "In god we trust" - since god doesn't exist, it means that "The person we trust doesn't exist/we trust no-one" . The logo "In god..." is used only to give the illusion to the american christian majority that their faith is relevant, because religion has always been and is the most powerful control rod for rulers. 4. McCain is a comedian, Obama is serious. Palin is seriously insane.

  • He said Acorn may be responsible for the greatest voter fraud in history. He must mean, after the Diebold electronic voting machine scandal, which handed the election to Bush on a silver platter.

  • @MrSteveSpears I thought I was the only person in the world smart enough to see that maybe between the two of us we can have them convicted since we are the only ones to know about it

  • He said Acorn may be res ponsible for the greatest voter fraud in history. He must mean, after the Diebold electronic voting machine scandal, which handed the election to Bush on a silver platter.

  • sarah palin is the reason obama won the presidency

  • Obama's approval rating would go through the roof if he went down into the Gulf of Mexico and went for a swim.

  • I like McCain as a person. Everyone thinks if you wanted Obama you hated McCain, where that just isn't true. Yes I wanted Obama in office, but McCain is still an American war hero and I respect him. And to be honest putting McCain in the hot seat like that made me a little uncomfortable.

  • I like the way democrats edit this video. :-)

  • even back in 08 when i was major right wing, i never wanted mccain to win, obama demolished him in every opportunity, he ran such a pathetic campaign im surprised hes been elected anywhere, how could anybody not see right through this guy

  • so glad that old fart aint a president XD

  • get this fuckin' tom mccann shoe salesman off.The dude can't fly a plane so we have to keep electing him for 30 years?Arizona better elect the other guy or they deserve to lose their state to the beaners.

  • at least he was honest man!!!!!!! becuz if he lied and said some stupid shit david would of destroyed him......

  • Whew, we sure dodged a bullet with McCain. With him at the helm we surely would have pushed the National debt to 13 trillion and had 10% unemployment in just 2 years.....

  • OVERRULED COUNSELLOR !!!!

  • McCain is the most awkward guy I've ever seen

  • It is a darn good thing this man didn't get into office. Wow.

  • I would give my left nut to see Mr.McCain do an ollie on a skateboard!!!!!!!! thumps up if you agree xD

  • @dengladepostman You need to value your left nut more than that sir, for example banging Jeri Ryan, I would give my left nut for that.

  • @rmathew2 can McCain give you an answer he screwed up at bohemian grone with chad savage

  • Letterman keeps cutting in on him and not letting him get a word in. what a dick!

  • @jmdenogean: Letterman had every reason to do that. Remember, McCain originally called him and said he was going back to Washington due to the original Stimulus package not being passed (back in 2008). Letterman was okay with that, but he got really pissed when he saw footage of McCain being interviewed by Katie Couric, and then later left to Washington...the next morning.

  • @jmdenogean sore loser

  • McCain: A six letter word for treason.

    McCain: A name, like that of Benedict Arnold, stands for traitor.

    McCain: How you sell out your Republican supporters & court the socialists.

    He sold out his fellow POW's in Viet Nam, and upon his return to the United States, knew that the US was leaving behind POWs all because Nixon wouldn't pay the ransom demand.

    All of you for or against McCain, and all of you for or against Palin: you're all losers, because none of you have a clue!!!

  • thank god he didnt win or we would be in the same place we were.

  • Girls are for fucking not leading OK!!!

  • @unrealhound lol

  • This man is totally copy of Bush ! Thanks my God he didn't win !

  • I'm Mexican American and love john MCcain some people think mexican hate him and that is not true he has done a lot for the mexican american comunity it's a shame that we have forgotten ....