Kinda odd how the religious crave and desire that everyone believe the same garbage that they do like there's more legitimacy to their religion if more people believe. My point is, insanity can be experienced and demonstrated by large volumes of people. They need confirmation of their insane thoughts by association/affirmation of others. Your video clearly reveals the hateful condescending attitudes of christians.
Sometimes I actually feel bad for those christians that dont want us to go to hell and are saddened by it. I debated one of my sister's friends a couple of weeks ago and her whole basis in the debate was that I would go to hell and she heaven. She said she would pray for me not to go to hell and to learn the truth. Of course she had never read the bible or gone to a class on evolution by choice of her parents. I opened her eyes to the possibility of atheism and planted the seed of doubt tho.
@JakobiaP that's because they have a healthy diet. And btw not all americans eat the "american" diet. i'm one of them. i don't eat mcdondald's. i eat raw organic foods from nature.
@ajhrockerboy6 Then diet is a stronger factor than faith? Because two years is a significant difference. I conclude that faith is a pretty weak factor then.
Public forums are a place where anyone can voice their bullshit. So I find it hard to be mad at these slopeheads for voicing theirs. In courts creationists/christians lose case after case because they simply can't assert their b.s is fact, in formal debates they are embarrassed as they use anti scientific methods to try and shape evidence around their conclusions as opposed to shaping conclusions around evidence. Let them have their fun in the less intelligently gifted corners of youtube.
Which hell do they "know" Hitchens is in? He might be with Falwell in the Greek underworld for all they know.
They think it's "sad" he didn't convert only because it would have been such a feather in their cap if he had. Give it some time - the conversion stories will appear soon enough.
If in the unlikely event of hell existing Christopher Hitchens will be there,but you can bet Jerry religions big business Falwell will be there.Hitchens will be remembered long after Falwell has been forgotten about.The thing is the only shock of god is that its no shock to me that its all wishful thinking you suckers and its about time you did some real thinking.
@NiceNineMillimeter muslim faith is just as bad as christian faith, and it religious people who claim knowledge without any evidence at all. Maybe time for you to reflect upon yourself, because the view of you is not nice from here.
If you know your Bible all people good and bad are to be resurrected.
Except those who commit the unforgivable sin by knowing the truth, but deliberately going against it, like all you hateful false Christians do.
Also, you're lucky the true Hell of the Bible is just the common grave, because there's definitely a lot of you phony Christians that would've ended up there.
This religious asshat called the "shock of god" is merely a hate monger. He's insignificant in the youtube realm. It's a very telling indication of the christians lack of good taste and morals to act the way they do when a skeptic dies.
When I watch videos like this one, I always chuckle because I know that it REALLY bothers the religious that there is a dramatic rise in free thinking non-believers who refuse to subscribe their minds to such a flawed ideology as religion.
As atheists, we should place this in perspective. Immediately after Jerry Falwell's passing, Hitchens said some brutal things -- including wishing that there was a hell for Falwell to go to. Most of my fellow atheist friends were saying similar things.
Don't get me wrong, as an atheist, I thoroughly despise Shock as well as his brand of brain-dead apologetics. However, I fear that by casting dispersions on these displays (many of which you acknowledge as benign), we come off as hypocrites.
@kafkaOTS While I agree with you the point I see is they were so horrified by what Hitchens said about Falwell and here some of them are doing the exact same thing. If anything, they are the hypocrites.
That's a good point -- the sword of hypocrisy certainly cuts both ways. It just seems this lack of etiquette exists on both sides. That said, I am somewhat surprised at how mild even the distasteful comments were. There weren't nearly as many, "lol, how does hell feel" comments as I thought there would be. The other "I hope he found god" bullshit is just part and parcel of their Christian faith -- that doesn't bother me as much.
Well...I think all I can ask for from theists on the matter of Hitchens' death is that they stay intellectually honest. Don't make shit up about him (friggin deathbed recantations), and don't change your opinion on him just cause he's dead.
@kafkaOTS I am afraid you don't understand hypocrisy. Hitchens did "preach hatred" for some individuals: Falwell, Mother Teresa, Kissinger and others. Yet he did so whilst knowing specific disgusting/evil things about these individuals in the public record. These people actually ENACTED & PREACHED hatred & contempt for those they knew nothing about. See the real hypocrisy? There is no such thing as 'bigotry' towards stupid ideas, nor the those who intentionally embody them for evil.
I've stared at this post for five minutes and I don't understand how this relates to the hypocrisy I was referring to; or for that matter, how it relates to hypocrisy at all. I agree with your general positive regard for Hitchens and your moral judgments against the actions of Christians; but Christians would just turn around and say the targets of their hatred are doing evil things, and the targets of Hitchens' hatred were not. Cont'd...
@kafkaOTS What is not to understand? Real hypocrisy is speaking ill of people whilst not knowing them (you don't know they are evil) and committing and embodying evil yourself. If you don't think it is evil to coop up gravely ill people on shitty cots in your dungeon forcing them to subscribe to your ideas of peity), when you had the resources to do hundreds of times better for them, you are fucking evil. You don't get to preach anything like morality and you don't get to be canonized.
Again, my actual point was: insofar as we collectively regard speaking ill of the dead as a bad thing, both atheists (including Hitchens!) and Christians appear to do it. Thus, for one side to stand up and point fingers at the other, does smell of hypocrisy regardless of who is doing the pointing.
@kafkaOTS My actual point was exactly this: There is nothing wrong with speaking ill of the dead if they are truly evil people. Another hypocrisy alert: Christians do THAT all the time as well. They cannot point to anything evil Hitchens did (criticism of their retard ideas is NOT evil).
Seriously, dude, I said that BOTH atheists and Christians engage in this behavior, so your "another hypocrisy alert" was a bit redundant. Also, making the this norm contingent on one's definition of evil is problematic. Unless the person is widely regarded as evil -- e.g., Hitler or Stalin -- there will always be a subjective interpretation of what an evil person is. Much as you regard someone like Mother Theresa evil, so do Christians regard individuals like Hitchens.
@kafkaOTS "Much as you regard someone like Mother Theresa evil, so do Christians regard individuals like Hitchens." Why can't they prove it then? You take the name "Mother Teresa" out of a Hitch-like description of her, and I could get almost universal acceptance of that kind of evil, even from Christians. Try the same thing with Hitch. The problem here is that you are making the assumption that speaking ill of the dead if their evil does not reach the extreme of a Hitler is itself...
@kafkaOTS ...is somehow objectively evil or hypocritical itself. It is not. Hypocrisy cannot even be said to be inherently evil. I would even argue that with regard to the human experience in the ways they interact with each other, objectivity does not exist. In fact, it is ONLY when OBJECTIVITY is brought into the picture, that the abuses begin.
@kafkaOTS As I said: I am not hearing these lame dispersions from these chickenshit moral cowards. It reduces my already low esteem for them, not my fellow atheists, and certainly not the Hitch.
The problem with making moral critiques of Christians (or at least most Christians) is that their despicable behavior is a function of their distorted belief system. In other words, if the factual assumptions of the Christian faith are true, then the actions of Christians which we find to be despicable are actually quite moral. When a Christian places conversion over ALL forms of humanitarian aid, they're doing so to prevent a person from burning in hell for eternity...
@kafkaOTS Let's be real for a moment. If I go as far as I can go in finding a common ground with an xian, then I would say that if we have any immortality at all, it is in legacy. This renders the xian view, that to 'legislate' xian theology on future generations only for the sake of perpetuating the theology itself, as amoral AT BEST. I can think of many more reasons that perpetuating xianity is more immoral than reasons perpetuating it would be moral.
Furthermore, atheists who try to dissuade people from the Christian faith would be evil because of the same consequence for those they deconvert. Now, of course, belief in gods, hell, and eternal punishment is all superstitious bullshit. But it is the belief that is the progenitor of evil and not the intent of the actor.
@kafkaOTS Beliefs by themselves do nothing. The owner of the belief is what is at issue here, bullshit beliefs or otherwise. Beliefs by themselves do commit evil. The holders of those beliefs do. Thus, for my part, I will hold them accountable in taking ownership for their beliefs to take ownership in their evil. They will not get out of their evil actions and deeds so easily with me. Hitch taught me that one. Now there is a legacy.
Accordingly, I find it unproductive to make these moral judgments on Christians; instead focusing on the errors of their philosophy. The former drives barriers between the groups, and latter dissolves them. Fair enough?
@kafkaOTS I must say that problems of ethics are an entire branch of philosophy. And I would argue it is the only way TO get through to these people. If they have been believing some unfalsifyable metaphysical/epistemological bullshit their entire lives, their only hope for 'saving' them is to point out the MALIGNANT ETHICAL implications of doing so, and hope that their guilt gets the better of them. Just my opinion.
Beliefs contextualize the moral logic of the actor. For instance, if I truly believed someone might suffer eternal torture for failing to believe in Yahweh, my actions -- as a moral person trying to minimize the suffering of others -- would be in line with those of fundies.
@kafkaOTS Belief that anyone is deserving of eternal torture is at best, fucking MEAN. Put this in any context but a religious one, and I get near unanimity.
@Thus, I disagree with your assessment that guilting people is an effective method of deconversion. Given their flawed beliefs, the intent of the actor is logically consistent with being moral. If you threaten them by questioning their morality, they will become more steadfast in those flawed beliefs. cont'd...
@kafkaOTS Which is why any philosophical arguments on metaphysics or epistemology on the topic are not only off-topic, they foster steadfastness in coming up with more convoluted supporting arguments. They don't have to feel queasy in any way, which I argue they need to.
Well, I should clarify: I don't believe this strategy is effective so much as it is the "most effective", comparatively speaking. Ultimately, all strategies that attempt to get people to relinquish life-long beliefs are almost always destined for failure; the cognitive dissonance is just too strong. Furthermore, while the guilting strategy might work for a few fence-straddlers, most psychologists would concur that threat to value heightens group identification.
Telling someone that their membership in a particular social category (e.g., religion, political party, ethnicity) makes them a bad (less valuable) person.
If someone told you how evil you were for not believing in Yahweh, would you really feel any guilt? Or would feel resentment? Why do you suppose it would be any different for them? I argue that by patiently showing them how their beliefs are flawed (lack of falsifiability and logical inconsistency), you remove the foundation through which THEY can define these actions as moral.
@kafkaOTS "If someone told you how evil you were for not believing in Yahweh, would you really feel any guilt?" No.
"Why do you suppose it would be any different for them?" Because there is no moral equivalence here.
"you remove the foundation through which THEY can define these actions as moral." Since the foundation for anyone's morality is ultimately their own 'conscience' delusional or not), why would you think that by avoiding...
@kafkaOTS ...pointing this out to them would do any such thing as removing their "foundation for doing so?" I would say to them: "You want God? OWN YOUR GOD, and EVERYTHING THAT MEANS."
Actually, rereading what I wrote, I would NOT have a problem with pointing out the ethical and moral inconsistencies of one's beliefs. I think can be an effective strategy. However, the blatant labeling of group members as moral or immoral is what I regard as ineffective.
Can xianity as a theology be shown, at times, to immoral? Yes!
Voila! If you are a xian, you just owned this immorality! This could do one or many of several things. 1) It could make them indignant (ask yourself "why?") 2) It could make them feel guilty (its intended effect) 3) They could simply ignore it or compartmentalize it (which, by default, they do anyway as is demonstrated by their compartmentalizing of Hitch here).
Option two is obviously preferable. The point I have raised in the last couple posts, however, is exactly how you elicit this response. Blatant moral judgments will not succeed; however, pointing out the logical and ethical inconsistencies will.
@kafkaOTS How will showing the irrationally careless using rationality succeed in this? The ill cannot be made to think they are. They must be made to feel it. A blatant moral judgment is such a way (indicated by the pang of indignance). It is a foregone conclusion that all judgments are subjective opinion, even the ones supposedly levied by 'god' (for it is still a xian's judgment of 'god's' judgment). Then where do they go? Straight to the ad hominem circus? They will tire of it.
I think you'll find most religious people are not as irrational as your post seems to imply. On issues separate from their religion, many can be quite logical. With religion, they have a deep emotional investment in their beliefs being right, and have scabbed over logical inconsistencies with a lot of double-think and special pleading. Moral judgments which do not address these cognitive barriers will ultimately fail and lead to reactionary results.
@kafkaOTS I think we actually agree. If I make moral judgment which in any other context but a religious one, they would agree with, then illustrate how their theology violates exactly THAT, then I have succeeded in addressing this cognitive barrier. With the emotional investment you speak of, there is no painless way to break it. It must necessarily be so (painful). IMO, the more painful, the better to break through the cognitive dissonance.
I think that would be an effective methodology. Also, I'm not denying that it would not be painful. But the pain would come in making people realize their beliefs are immoral, not that they are immoral.
Thanks for the exchange. Bravado aside, you have given me food for thought to re-examine my own feelings on the matter. I appreciate that.
@kafkaOTS Ever met a strongly believing xian who could passively sit there letting an atheist 'deconvert' them? They cannot just sit there listening to it. I mean really: One or two cover stories on Time or The New York Times on the "god is dead", and these people lose their minds! Atheists have been doing exactly that for centuries: sitting silently. Perhaps more out of etiquette than anything else. Where did that get us?
It's a slow deliberate process, no doubt. I have found the best path is to call out these cognitive barriers. For instance, asking how they morally reconcile a loving god with prospect of eternal punishment for lack of belief. When they toss out the standard flawed logic, shoot it down. At no point do you judge them as people, just their beliefs. They may still react harshly, but it won't be as severe.
@kafkaOTS Now. Here are the only dispersions I will hear leveled against this great figure of our time: Read Hitch 22, then point out specific deeds and words he has used which embody evil (that is toward innocents, those who we can all agree did not deserve them).
Good Luck!
The only thing these S.O.G. fucktards know about him (or him, they) is his disgust for their shitty, immoral and retarded religulous ideas.
shock of god is another dick christian who again has vids and disables ratings and comments or has them on approval , so dishonest !!!! it does really piss me off when i write out a message sayin how wrong he is and then go to post it and says "comment waiting for approval" :( ... and then u see all the other christians sayin how right he is , so dishonest !!
Worse still, when they actually do post the comment, block you, respond to the comment with faulty logic, challenge you to rebut them, wait a day, and then crow over how they scared off an atheist. I have had Shock, Nephy, and Krazie316 all engage me with that particularly conniving violation of the ninth commandment.
I've had convo's with the SOG poster "Ada2step" and she is a totally whacked out bible bashing creotard who makes me glad I live in the UK where we have secure facilities for people like this.
Shockofgod is an idiot and it is not worth it to argue with an idiot. Plus he censors, lies and twist words to make it sound like he won.......a true christian. Over all tho he does more harm to his religion than help.
Anyone who really thinks SoG is right is not worth talking to either. He is true scum and deserves to be treated as such. I have to admit that if anyone ever deserved to be really messed up in an accident, it would be him. Misleading that many people with stupidity and lies can't be a good thing. I am ashamed to even think those sorts of things, but when I hear him talk I just can't help myself.
@NiceNineMillimeter As for "what goes around comes around"- everyone dies, genius. You'll die too, so will everyone else. Good people, including your fellow Christians, get cancer and die of either the treatment or the cancer itself. The fact that Hitchens lacked belief in a God and criticised prominent religious figures is inconsequential. My grandfather has always been a Christian, and right now he is dying of lung cancer. Cancer is not a punishment for not conforming to Christianity.
@shrikechan Well done. I'm sorry about your grandfather, I wish him and you the best. My grandmother died many years ago of cancer and she too was a devout Christian.
@NiceNineMillimeter You're the one who likes to pretend to know more than you really know. Your unquestioning support of people such as Mother Theresea is an example of that. You wouldn't bother to defend her reputation if she had practiced any religion other than the one you follow. She actually did more to extend peoples' suffering and wanted necessary abortions and contraception to be completely illegal, but that's OK because she was a Christian, right? Learn to think.
@NiceNineMillimeter You're an idiot. Do you not understand that EVERYONE dies, including you and me? I don't know it all, I admit that. I don't know how the universe and life came about. It is you who acts like you know it all, you assume the universe and life was created without an once of evidence. Some holy book written by ignorant goat herders will not give you answers to these questions, neither will your imaginary friend. To be cont...
@TheCurmudgen As for going after Islam, I happen to live in a country that is made up of 80% of you morons. Why would I go after a faith that isn't the majority in my country? However, I have made videos on Islam, if you care to dig through my video library. As for hatred, what kind of hatred is it when you celebrate someone's death? You're not only an ignorant asshole you're also a hypocrite.
Keep in mind, that bigot of a shock has all his videos on approval only settings, so all the comments he agrees with. And those that he doesnt. he just blocks after making a retarded mockery only his fans might designate as a reply.
Those wing nuts don't even know their own bible. There are a number of places in the bible that say nobody goes to heaven or hell until they are judged after the second coming. There are also many references to people being as asleep after death.
I feel sorry for christians. and I mean that. It must be miserable to have a delusion that makes you think good people are actually being tortured forever in another realm.
@goreziad As long as Christians continue to not only stick their noses in my life but also mock me and treat me as if I'm doing something wrong, I'll give a fuck.
I'd rather spend an eternity in 'hell' than an eternity in 'heaven' with christians
oweenacow 3 weeks ago
Another example of how immoral the Christian belief system is.
DDeCouto 1 month ago
Falwell DESERVED every foul comment ever made about him. That worthless F*U*C*K deserved to DIE more than anyone else I know!
xusmcguy 1 month ago
Kinda odd how the religious crave and desire that everyone believe the same garbage that they do like there's more legitimacy to their religion if more people believe. My point is, insanity can be experienced and demonstrated by large volumes of people. They need confirmation of their insane thoughts by association/affirmation of others. Your video clearly reveals the hateful condescending attitudes of christians.
GodlessHappyAndFree 1 month ago
Sometimes I actually feel bad for those christians that dont want us to go to hell and are saddened by it. I debated one of my sister's friends a couple of weeks ago and her whole basis in the debate was that I would go to hell and she heaven. She said she would pray for me not to go to hell and to learn the truth. Of course she had never read the bible or gone to a class on evolution by choice of her parents. I opened her eyes to the possibility of atheism and planted the seed of doubt tho.
guitarfuckist 1 month ago in playlist More videos from TheCurmudgen
believing in god makes you live longer naturally.
ajhrockerboy6 1 month ago
@ajhrockerboy6 That's nice. I would rather die early knowing I haven't lied to myself my entire life.
TheCurmudgen 1 month ago 9
@ajhrockerboy6 Present evidence for that, as secular countries like Sweden has VERY high life expectancies
JakobiaP 1 month ago
@ajhrockerboy6 Sweden, a secular country, has over two years longer mean life expecdancy than the US, a religious country, how is that for you
JakobiaP 1 month ago
@JakobiaP that's because they have a healthy diet. And btw not all americans eat the "american" diet. i'm one of them. i don't eat mcdondald's. i eat raw organic foods from nature.
ajhrockerboy6 1 month ago
@ajhrockerboy6 Then diet is a stronger factor than faith? Because two years is a significant difference. I conclude that faith is a pretty weak factor then.
JakobiaP 1 month ago
Public forums are a place where anyone can voice their bullshit. So I find it hard to be mad at these slopeheads for voicing theirs. In courts creationists/christians lose case after case because they simply can't assert their b.s is fact, in formal debates they are embarrassed as they use anti scientific methods to try and shape evidence around their conclusions as opposed to shaping conclusions around evidence. Let them have their fun in the less intelligently gifted corners of youtube.
mrgejwaites 1 month ago
Comment removed
agentssith 2 months ago
Which hell do they "know" Hitchens is in? He might be with Falwell in the Greek underworld for all they know.
They think it's "sad" he didn't convert only because it would have been such a feather in their cap if he had. Give it some time - the conversion stories will appear soon enough.
JMUDoc 2 months ago
If in the unlikely event of hell existing Christopher Hitchens will be there,but you can bet Jerry religions big business Falwell will be there.Hitchens will be remembered long after Falwell has been forgotten about.The thing is the only shock of god is that its no shock to me that its all wishful thinking you suckers and its about time you did some real thinking.
TheTomtuffy 2 months ago
@NiceNineMillimeter muslim faith is just as bad as christian faith, and it religious people who claim knowledge without any evidence at all. Maybe time for you to reflect upon yourself, because the view of you is not nice from here.
MagnusNyborg 2 months ago
ShlockOfClod is a petty little homophobe who worships an invisible telepathic sky-daddy. In other words, he's insane.
mikefromwa 2 months ago
What's it matter if he repented?
If you know your Bible all people good and bad are to be resurrected.
Except those who commit the unforgivable sin by knowing the truth, but deliberately going against it, like all you hateful false Christians do.
Also, you're lucky the true Hell of the Bible is just the common grave, because there's definitely a lot of you phony Christians that would've ended up there.
DaddyOD13 2 months ago
@NiceNineMillimeter I see you think Hitchens was an ASSHOLE. There is no proof of him being that way. SO.. why are you being an ASSHOLE?
GodlessHappyAndFree 2 months ago
This religious asshat called the "shock of god" is merely a hate monger. He's insignificant in the youtube realm. It's a very telling indication of the christians lack of good taste and morals to act the way they do when a skeptic dies.
When I watch videos like this one, I always chuckle because I know that it REALLY bothers the religious that there is a dramatic rise in free thinking non-believers who refuse to subscribe their minds to such a flawed ideology as religion.
GodlessHappyAndFree 2 months ago
As atheists, we should place this in perspective. Immediately after Jerry Falwell's passing, Hitchens said some brutal things -- including wishing that there was a hell for Falwell to go to. Most of my fellow atheist friends were saying similar things.
Don't get me wrong, as an atheist, I thoroughly despise Shock as well as his brand of brain-dead apologetics. However, I fear that by casting dispersions on these displays (many of which you acknowledge as benign), we come off as hypocrites.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago 3
@kafkaOTS While I agree with you the point I see is they were so horrified by what Hitchens said about Falwell and here some of them are doing the exact same thing. If anything, they are the hypocrites.
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago
@TheCurmudgen
That's a good point -- the sword of hypocrisy certainly cuts both ways. It just seems this lack of etiquette exists on both sides. That said, I am somewhat surprised at how mild even the distasteful comments were. There weren't nearly as many, "lol, how does hell feel" comments as I thought there would be. The other "I hope he found god" bullshit is just part and parcel of their Christian faith -- that doesn't bother me as much.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@TheCurmudgen
Well...I think all I can ask for from theists on the matter of Hitchens' death is that they stay intellectually honest. Don't make shit up about him (friggin deathbed recantations), and don't change your opinion on him just cause he's dead.
SirKickz 1 month ago
@kafkaOTS I am afraid you don't understand hypocrisy. Hitchens did "preach hatred" for some individuals: Falwell, Mother Teresa, Kissinger and others. Yet he did so whilst knowing specific disgusting/evil things about these individuals in the public record. These people actually ENACTED & PREACHED hatred & contempt for those they knew nothing about. See the real hypocrisy? There is no such thing as 'bigotry' towards stupid ideas, nor the those who intentionally embody them for evil.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
I've stared at this post for five minutes and I don't understand how this relates to the hypocrisy I was referring to; or for that matter, how it relates to hypocrisy at all. I agree with your general positive regard for Hitchens and your moral judgments against the actions of Christians; but Christians would just turn around and say the targets of their hatred are doing evil things, and the targets of Hitchens' hatred were not. Cont'd...
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS What is not to understand? Real hypocrisy is speaking ill of people whilst not knowing them (you don't know they are evil) and committing and embodying evil yourself. If you don't think it is evil to coop up gravely ill people on shitty cots in your dungeon forcing them to subscribe to your ideas of peity), when you had the resources to do hundreds of times better for them, you are fucking evil. You don't get to preach anything like morality and you don't get to be canonized.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Again, my actual point was: insofar as we collectively regard speaking ill of the dead as a bad thing, both atheists (including Hitchens!) and Christians appear to do it. Thus, for one side to stand up and point fingers at the other, does smell of hypocrisy regardless of who is doing the pointing.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS My actual point was exactly this: There is nothing wrong with speaking ill of the dead if they are truly evil people. Another hypocrisy alert: Christians do THAT all the time as well. They cannot point to anything evil Hitchens did (criticism of their retard ideas is NOT evil).
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Seriously, dude, I said that BOTH atheists and Christians engage in this behavior, so your "another hypocrisy alert" was a bit redundant. Also, making the this norm contingent on one's definition of evil is problematic. Unless the person is widely regarded as evil -- e.g., Hitler or Stalin -- there will always be a subjective interpretation of what an evil person is. Much as you regard someone like Mother Theresa evil, so do Christians regard individuals like Hitchens.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS "Much as you regard someone like Mother Theresa evil, so do Christians regard individuals like Hitchens." Why can't they prove it then? You take the name "Mother Teresa" out of a Hitch-like description of her, and I could get almost universal acceptance of that kind of evil, even from Christians. Try the same thing with Hitch. The problem here is that you are making the assumption that speaking ill of the dead if their evil does not reach the extreme of a Hitler is itself...
agentssith 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS ...is somehow objectively evil or hypocritical itself. It is not. Hypocrisy cannot even be said to be inherently evil. I would even argue that with regard to the human experience in the ways they interact with each other, objectivity does not exist. In fact, it is ONLY when OBJECTIVITY is brought into the picture, that the abuses begin.
agentssith 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS As I said: I am not hearing these lame dispersions from these chickenshit moral cowards. It reduces my already low esteem for them, not my fellow atheists, and certainly not the Hitch.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
The problem with making moral critiques of Christians (or at least most Christians) is that their despicable behavior is a function of their distorted belief system. In other words, if the factual assumptions of the Christian faith are true, then the actions of Christians which we find to be despicable are actually quite moral. When a Christian places conversion over ALL forms of humanitarian aid, they're doing so to prevent a person from burning in hell for eternity...
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Let's be real for a moment. If I go as far as I can go in finding a common ground with an xian, then I would say that if we have any immortality at all, it is in legacy. This renders the xian view, that to 'legislate' xian theology on future generations only for the sake of perpetuating the theology itself, as amoral AT BEST. I can think of many more reasons that perpetuating xianity is more immoral than reasons perpetuating it would be moral.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Furthermore, atheists who try to dissuade people from the Christian faith would be evil because of the same consequence for those they deconvert. Now, of course, belief in gods, hell, and eternal punishment is all superstitious bullshit. But it is the belief that is the progenitor of evil and not the intent of the actor.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Beliefs by themselves do nothing. The owner of the belief is what is at issue here, bullshit beliefs or otherwise. Beliefs by themselves do commit evil. The holders of those beliefs do. Thus, for my part, I will hold them accountable in taking ownership for their beliefs to take ownership in their evil. They will not get out of their evil actions and deeds so easily with me. Hitch taught me that one. Now there is a legacy.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Accordingly, I find it unproductive to make these moral judgments on Christians; instead focusing on the errors of their philosophy. The former drives barriers between the groups, and latter dissolves them. Fair enough?
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS I must say that problems of ethics are an entire branch of philosophy. And I would argue it is the only way TO get through to these people. If they have been believing some unfalsifyable metaphysical/epistemological bullshit their entire lives, their only hope for 'saving' them is to point out the MALIGNANT ETHICAL implications of doing so, and hope that their guilt gets the better of them. Just my opinion.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Beliefs contextualize the moral logic of the actor. For instance, if I truly believed someone might suffer eternal torture for failing to believe in Yahweh, my actions -- as a moral person trying to minimize the suffering of others -- would be in line with those of fundies.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Belief that anyone is deserving of eternal torture is at best, fucking MEAN. Put this in any context but a religious one, and I get near unanimity.
agentssith 2 months ago
@Thus, I disagree with your assessment that guilting people is an effective method of deconversion. Given their flawed beliefs, the intent of the actor is logically consistent with being moral. If you threaten them by questioning their morality, they will become more steadfast in those flawed beliefs. cont'd...
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Which is why any philosophical arguments on metaphysics or epistemology on the topic are not only off-topic, they foster steadfastness in coming up with more convoluted supporting arguments. They don't have to feel queasy in any way, which I argue they need to.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Well, I should clarify: I don't believe this strategy is effective so much as it is the "most effective", comparatively speaking. Ultimately, all strategies that attempt to get people to relinquish life-long beliefs are almost always destined for failure; the cognitive dissonance is just too strong. Furthermore, while the guilting strategy might work for a few fence-straddlers, most psychologists would concur that threat to value heightens group identification.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS What would you call "threat to value"?
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Telling someone that their membership in a particular social category (e.g., religion, political party, ethnicity) makes them a bad (less valuable) person.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@agentssith
If someone told you how evil you were for not believing in Yahweh, would you really feel any guilt? Or would feel resentment? Why do you suppose it would be any different for them? I argue that by patiently showing them how their beliefs are flawed (lack of falsifiability and logical inconsistency), you remove the foundation through which THEY can define these actions as moral.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS "If someone told you how evil you were for not believing in Yahweh, would you really feel any guilt?" No.
"Why do you suppose it would be any different for them?" Because there is no moral equivalence here.
"you remove the foundation through which THEY can define these actions as moral." Since the foundation for anyone's morality is ultimately their own 'conscience' delusional or not), why would you think that by avoiding...
agentssith 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS ...pointing this out to them would do any such thing as removing their "foundation for doing so?" I would say to them: "You want God? OWN YOUR GOD, and EVERYTHING THAT MEANS."
Now, where would that leave us?
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Actually, rereading what I wrote, I would NOT have a problem with pointing out the ethical and moral inconsistencies of one's beliefs. I think can be an effective strategy. However, the blatant labeling of group members as moral or immoral is what I regard as ineffective.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Do xians self identify as a group? Yes!
Can xianity as a theology be shown, at times, to immoral? Yes!
Voila! If you are a xian, you just owned this immorality! This could do one or many of several things. 1) It could make them indignant (ask yourself "why?") 2) It could make them feel guilty (its intended effect) 3) They could simply ignore it or compartmentalize it (which, by default, they do anyway as is demonstrated by their compartmentalizing of Hitch here).
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
Option two is obviously preferable. The point I have raised in the last couple posts, however, is exactly how you elicit this response. Blatant moral judgments will not succeed; however, pointing out the logical and ethical inconsistencies will.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS
Or, I should say, pointing out the logical and ethical inconsistencies of one's beliefs will have a better chance of eliciting this response.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS How will showing the irrationally careless using rationality succeed in this? The ill cannot be made to think they are. They must be made to feel it. A blatant moral judgment is such a way (indicated by the pang of indignance). It is a foregone conclusion that all judgments are subjective opinion, even the ones supposedly levied by 'god' (for it is still a xian's judgment of 'god's' judgment). Then where do they go? Straight to the ad hominem circus? They will tire of it.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
I think you'll find most religious people are not as irrational as your post seems to imply. On issues separate from their religion, many can be quite logical. With religion, they have a deep emotional investment in their beliefs being right, and have scabbed over logical inconsistencies with a lot of double-think and special pleading. Moral judgments which do not address these cognitive barriers will ultimately fail and lead to reactionary results.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS I think we actually agree. If I make moral judgment which in any other context but a religious one, they would agree with, then illustrate how their theology violates exactly THAT, then I have succeeded in addressing this cognitive barrier. With the emotional investment you speak of, there is no painless way to break it. It must necessarily be so (painful). IMO, the more painful, the better to break through the cognitive dissonance.
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
I think that would be an effective methodology. Also, I'm not denying that it would not be painful. But the pain would come in making people realize their beliefs are immoral, not that they are immoral.
Thanks for the exchange. Bravado aside, you have given me food for thought to re-examine my own feelings on the matter. I appreciate that.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Ever met a strongly believing xian who could passively sit there letting an atheist 'deconvert' them? They cannot just sit there listening to it. I mean really: One or two cover stories on Time or The New York Times on the "god is dead", and these people lose their minds! Atheists have been doing exactly that for centuries: sitting silently. Perhaps more out of etiquette than anything else. Where did that get us?
agentssith 2 months ago
@agentssith
It's a slow deliberate process, no doubt. I have found the best path is to call out these cognitive barriers. For instance, asking how they morally reconcile a loving god with prospect of eternal punishment for lack of belief. When they toss out the standard flawed logic, shoot it down. At no point do you judge them as people, just their beliefs. They may still react harshly, but it won't be as severe.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS Now. Here are the only dispersions I will hear leveled against this great figure of our time: Read Hitch 22, then point out specific deeds and words he has used which embody evil (that is toward innocents, those who we can all agree did not deserve them).
Good Luck!
The only thing these S.O.G. fucktards know about him (or him, they) is his disgust for their shitty, immoral and retarded religulous ideas.
agentssith 2 months ago
That shit filled Christian dog fucker's real name is Rich Allen.
RectalItching 2 months ago
shock of god is another dick christian who again has vids and disables ratings and comments or has them on approval , so dishonest !!!! it does really piss me off when i write out a message sayin how wrong he is and then go to post it and says "comment waiting for approval" :( ... and then u see all the other christians sayin how right he is , so dishonest !!
dkinetik 2 months ago 11
@dkinetik
Worse still, when they actually do post the comment, block you, respond to the comment with faulty logic, challenge you to rebut them, wait a day, and then crow over how they scared off an atheist. I have had Shock, Nephy, and Krazie316 all engage me with that particularly conniving violation of the ninth commandment.
kafkaOTS 2 months ago
@kafkaOTS their all just like trollers , like to confuse people or piss them off !!
dkinetik 1 month ago
@dkinetik He's the Kim Jong Il of the internet
berner 2 months ago
@dkinetik Without dishonesty there would be no religion. Lying is something of a prerequisite.
VesusSheist 1 month ago
@VesusSheist yes indeed !!!
dkinetik 1 month ago
I don't know you-- But I'm subscribing now!
aqouby 2 months ago
I've had convo's with the SOG poster "Ada2step" and she is a totally whacked out bible bashing creotard who makes me glad I live in the UK where we have secure facilities for people like this.
lewisner 2 months ago
Great to see such good examples of christian morality at work, Gee it makes me want to be just like them-not
meleder 2 months ago 2
Shockofgod is an idiot and it is not worth it to argue with an idiot. Plus he censors, lies and twist words to make it sound like he won.......a true christian. Over all tho he does more harm to his religion than help.
Xatasha6611 2 months ago 2
@Xatasha6611
Anyone who really thinks SoG is right is not worth talking to either. He is true scum and deserves to be treated as such. I have to admit that if anyone ever deserved to be really messed up in an accident, it would be him. Misleading that many people with stupidity and lies can't be a good thing. I am ashamed to even think those sorts of things, but when I hear him talk I just can't help myself.
YetAnotherInfidel 2 months ago
*facepalm*
thorkyll 2 months ago
@NiceNineMillimeter As for "what goes around comes around"- everyone dies, genius. You'll die too, so will everyone else. Good people, including your fellow Christians, get cancer and die of either the treatment or the cancer itself. The fact that Hitchens lacked belief in a God and criticised prominent religious figures is inconsequential. My grandfather has always been a Christian, and right now he is dying of lung cancer. Cancer is not a punishment for not conforming to Christianity.
shrikechan 2 months ago 2
@shrikechan Well done. I'm sorry about your grandfather, I wish him and you the best. My grandmother died many years ago of cancer and she too was a devout Christian.
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago
@NiceNineMillimeter You're the one who likes to pretend to know more than you really know. Your unquestioning support of people such as Mother Theresea is an example of that. You wouldn't bother to defend her reputation if she had practiced any religion other than the one you follow. She actually did more to extend peoples' suffering and wanted necessary abortions and contraception to be completely illegal, but that's OK because she was a Christian, right? Learn to think.
shrikechan 2 months ago
@NiceNineMillimeter You're an idiot. Do you not understand that EVERYONE dies, including you and me? I don't know it all, I admit that. I don't know how the universe and life came about. It is you who acts like you know it all, you assume the universe and life was created without an once of evidence. Some holy book written by ignorant goat herders will not give you answers to these questions, neither will your imaginary friend. To be cont...
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago
@TheCurmudgen As for going after Islam, I happen to live in a country that is made up of 80% of you morons. Why would I go after a faith that isn't the majority in my country? However, I have made videos on Islam, if you care to dig through my video library. As for hatred, what kind of hatred is it when you celebrate someone's death? You're not only an ignorant asshole you're also a hypocrite.
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago
shockofgod is a coward.
Rocketryman 2 months ago
Keep in mind, that bigot of a shock has all his videos on approval only settings, so all the comments he agrees with. And those that he doesnt. he just blocks after making a retarded mockery only his fans might designate as a reply.
davelantor 2 months ago
"I am not the least afraid to die." Charles Darwin last words, d. April 19, 1882
"Death may be the greatest of all human blessings" Socrates
"It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees" Dolores Ibarruri
arizonaviking 2 months ago 2
Even if there god did exist and they could prove it id rather burn
ISlamMyWifeIntoAWall 2 months ago
Those wing nuts don't even know their own bible. There are a number of places in the bible that say nobody goes to heaven or hell until they are judged after the second coming. There are also many references to people being as asleep after death.
mjlgaard 2 months ago 4
@mjlgaard The Old Testament doesn't even mention hell. It's the New Testament with a loving Jesus who mentions eternal torment.
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago 3
Comment removed
mjlgaard 2 months ago
I feel sorry for christians. and I mean that. It must be miserable to have a delusion that makes you think good people are actually being tortured forever in another realm.
420simpson 2 months ago
they do relish the death of others eh?....but no it's not a death cult.....no, no, no!
jimthepleb 2 months ago
The religious are clowns - not to be taken seriously.
preemptivestrike20 2 months ago
Comment removed
Mee551able 2 months ago
Saying "its a shame he didnt repent" isnt so bad, from their perspective, its actually a nice thing to say.
However, the stuff about "he is in hell", thats where I draw the line at tasteful.
chthonios 2 months ago
Yup, I am blocked from him too. I honestly think that Hitch would have expected as much, after his comments on Jerry Falwell.
rednecktrucker1969 2 months ago
Wait, you mean shockofgawd and his retard followers are capricious hateful idiots? News at 11?
Voxnulla 2 months ago
Comment removed
goreziad 2 months ago
@goreziad As long as Christians continue to not only stick their noses in my life but also mock me and treat me as if I'm doing something wrong, I'll give a fuck.
TheCurmudgen 2 months ago 2
@TheCurmudgen well the only ones who have a problem is them, not you.
goreziad 2 months ago
@YetAnotherInfidel I wouldn't wish him ill since I think he has mental problems and his religion is feeding his problems
Xatasha6611 2 months ago
ShlockofGod and his perverse flock deserve the hell that in which they believe.
Sadly, no such place exists. However, they are doing their best to make Earth a hellish place...
SiriusMined 2 months ago