Hey Coach, I'm a 14 year old freshman out of Kentucky, hoping to become a quarterback. I wanted to know if you could please check out my channel, to see if I my throwing motions are correct. It'd mean a lot if you did. Thanks!
No worries...It is simply distinctions and labels applied. I have actually heard it taught various ways, not by you, some at the ear, or putting the ball up behind the head in transition. My ball position is largely due to my wrist position, not the intent of having the ball up or down. When I am dropping, it is lower across the chest through release...I would imagine anything above where you are would be "on the shelf" :-)
Coach Slack -- I very much appreciate you allowing me to put your throw-motion up online as a demonstation. I've always amired your business acumen and attention to detail. I've written several e-mails but never got replys, but I'm sure you have a lot on your plate. If you have a personal e-mail I may use, I have a bunch of questions to ask you about your teachings. I work within the framework of any coach's parameters when I work with a student...
But I do have questions for you -- one of the major questions I get all the time is why is it a successful college quarterback will be taught to carry the ball high, but end up bringing it down once they get to the NFL? Payton Manning would be the exception to that rule, but Aaron Rodgers and others end up bringing it down in the NFL. Even Tebow was taught to hold the ball high, but it came down immediatly in Denver. Do you mind if I pick your brain a bit? I wont say much, but I have questions
@TopGunQBAcademy Coach, I have no problem answering what I can...I am sorry you have had trouble getting to me, I assure you, I answer all my emails...not sure why we couldn't hook up...send an email to nfacoach@gmail.com and I will send you a better email address...To your questions...I don't know...again, there are a number of reasons given for why guys want the ball down. As I said before, having the ball down isn't a dealbreaker...it just potentially adds time to the release.
@TopGunQBAcademy The ball will inevitably come up...and where it starts post drop with pocket movement included will impact this, but once the "intent to move" is indicated I believe there are some things that need to be considered - internal rotation (dipping), off side discipline, hip orientation, separation, etc. that all impact the quality of the release. QB Coaches all have their hills they prefer to die on regarding "what they teach," about prepass, this isn't one for me.
Now, I do have suggestions about ways to improve consistency of accuracy with regard to the wrist, etc. and that will affect how the ball locates on the body prepass, but there is no magic to a location in my opinion, it is understanding what a particular location does to the arm itself. Too high is just as influential, as too low...the key is understanding the non-negotiables of external rotation, elevation, alignment, timing, and extension...
I didn't mean to attribute the phrase "on the shelf" to you, nor did I mean it as a derogatory phrase. I don't even know where exactly the phrase came from, but it appears to me (correct me if I am wrong) that the phrase could be a discription of how you are holding the ball in your video? I have seen your videos and remember being very impressed by your attention to detail.
that will lead the player to do things that will cause people to draw conclusions about what we teach by what they observe on video...such as us being for the ball "on the shelf." We mention no such concept. but what we do explain will encourage an upper chest ball position without really ever having to say, "put the ball here." The key is making a compelling argument for why we do something, let the player or coach observe the results, and they choose to continue it on their own
Not trying to be cryptic, but when the rationale for doing something is explained beyond just "put the ball here" for reasons of protection. personal preference or tradition. An explanation of how any position will ultimately impact the release...that reasoning generates a response in the player...and they choose what to do about it. on their own. A much more compelling way to achieve lasting results. Unfortunately, some don't have the choice, so we help them with work arounds.
the second one has better protection on the ball before the throw, in case of a sack. IMO you can give the ball more power for longer throws with the second guy motion. The first one may be more effective on shorter passes because of the quick release. Seems like the second one throws more smoothly for an easier reception from the WR. But mostly i think what has changed is about the protection of the ball.
Good points: Interestingly, if you time the throw-motion from the time there is ANY body movement (in this case, the front foot is the very first thing that moves in both motions) the 2nd thrower is a fraction of a second faster, but if you start the clock only on ball-movement, the 1st guy's ball comes out faster. Which is the correct way to time it?
This is fun...I have had a chance to view your comments and thoughts and respect very much the balanced view you take to each throw...something I have always respected about you as I have reviewed your material and comments...Always a bit dangerous to post a video like this because generalizations can easily be made...few thoughts...
Ball position...on the shelf as you call it...we make a distinction between drop position and pre-pass
The video only reflects a static ball position framed for a specific purpose...I am very much for a more fluid drop position across the chest, we just emphasize the distinction to assist us in separating the mechanics of the motion from the drop for purposes of correction and adjustment...We time from the front hand coming off the ball, as this is the most consistent measurement you can make across all QBs...Stride length fluctuates...my stride is typically much shorter, however
For this video, I lengthened it to demonstrate that regardless of stride length on a throw, a quick release is still possible when ball separation is disciplined - which you identified very impressively in your breakdown. I prefer a much shorter stride normally, but again...context is lost in a single video. The other component of the "on purpose" stride length is the challenge of proper weight transfer, which we highlight in some important and unique ways.
No goal to avoid assessment, I just thought it might be interesting to offer some of the considerations that don't typically get covered when this video gets reviewed. In terms of ball exposure to impact, we really address that in the pocket movement discussion...this is really about that moment of commitment to throw, where much of those things have already been dealt with - unless we get blindsided :-) Thanks for a fair breakdown...very rare.
@darinslack Hi Coach Slack -- I'm teaching class right now but I appreciate you taking the time the view the video -- I've been asked to write a research article on different throwing positions -- you are very detailed so I picked yours..
@TopGunQBAcademy Understood. Not sure what is meant by throwing positions...is that motions? I presume...good luck with that....I would be interested to read your findings...can you send me a link when its done?
@darinslack Coach Slack -- 'throwing positions' meaning where you hold the ball before the throw-motion begins... Coach Martz (if my notes are correct) likes his QBs to hold the ball lower near the belly so that the ball is well-protected, the motion always has whip to it, and the hand offs & throws all start from the same general area. Brady and others start very low. So there are many types of throw-positions - I just would like to know the reasons for each.
@TopGunQBAcademy Okay, that's helpful...I am sure there are many reasons for this...lots of different positions...All the best in your effort...let me know if I can help in any way...be glad too.d
@darinslack I do have a request coach Slack -- could you film yourself (of film someone) throwing with the technique that you teach so I have a valid throw-motion to compare to? Part of the research is being able to show all the different types of throw-motions. I've got some Montana video where he really seems to drop the ball almost to his waist and some Marino video where he never even takes a step into the throw - both excellent throwers...
@darinslack I do have a request coach Slack -- could you film yourself (or film someone) throwing with the technique that you teach so I have a valid throw-motion to compare to? Part of the research is being able to show all the different types of throw-motions. I've got some Montana video where he really seems to drop the ball almost to his waist and some Marino video where he never even takes a step into the throw - both excellent throwers...
@TopGunQBAcademy Sorry to take so long, but I want to lay a fair groundwork: While we may, and do make clear distinctions about prepass, and while that may elevate the positions some, the reasons are different than the norm. Regardless, we work with any expectation. Trying to get a straight answer as to why they want it.? Often we can't get that straight answer...they just do it cause that's how they were told, or how its always been done. Hope this makes some sense - why do you do it?
Personal Experience: I was taught to hold the ball high on the shelf, but during 11 o n 11 and expecially in the game, there is not a lot of room back there with all the bodys flying around so I kept it closer to my body, but perhaps I was wrong. Then I found that if I shortened my stride and threw (starting with the ball on my chest) I got much more power, control & ball RPM.
Finally, If I have a student with a very bad throw-motion, having him hold the ball high on the shelf is "almost" an instant fix. The less "throw-motion a QB has, the easier it is to control. Hold it up high, point your throw elbow forward, and the rest "just happens' so I really like both throw-motions for different reasons. The first thrower in the video starts by taking a long stride and once the foot hits the ground, the throw starts. Very clean and compact...
@TopGunQBAcademy You know you've actually helped me with a kids throwing problem. He had a bad throwing motion, and even though you try to correct it, he still throws awkwardly. I told him to try holding the ball high, and it was an instant fix. So, thanks for the tip.
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Hey Coach, I'm a 14 year old freshman out of Kentucky, hoping to become a quarterback. I wanted to know if you could please check out my channel, to see if I my throwing motions are correct. It'd mean a lot if you did. Thanks!
WesAmoresRHS11 4 months ago
No worries...It is simply distinctions and labels applied. I have actually heard it taught various ways, not by you, some at the ear, or putting the ball up behind the head in transition. My ball position is largely due to my wrist position, not the intent of having the ball up or down. When I am dropping, it is lower across the chest through release...I would imagine anything above where you are would be "on the shelf" :-)
darinslack 10 months ago
@darinslack Just sent you a message to the e-mail you gave me -- no need to use this forum - I look forward to discussions with you.
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
Coach Slack -- I very much appreciate you allowing me to put your throw-motion up online as a demonstation. I've always amired your business acumen and attention to detail. I've written several e-mails but never got replys, but I'm sure you have a lot on your plate. If you have a personal e-mail I may use, I have a bunch of questions to ask you about your teachings. I work within the framework of any coach's parameters when I work with a student...
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
But I do have questions for you -- one of the major questions I get all the time is why is it a successful college quarterback will be taught to carry the ball high, but end up bringing it down once they get to the NFL? Payton Manning would be the exception to that rule, but Aaron Rodgers and others end up bringing it down in the NFL. Even Tebow was taught to hold the ball high, but it came down immediatly in Denver. Do you mind if I pick your brain a bit? I wont say much, but I have questions
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
Comment removed
darinslack 10 months ago
Comment removed
darinslack 10 months ago
Comment removed
darinslack 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TopGunQBAcademy Coach, I have no problem answering what I can...I am sorry you have had trouble getting to me, I assure you, I answer all my emails...not sure why we couldn't hook up...send an email to nfacoach@gmail.com and I will send you a better email address...To your questions...I don't know...again, there are a number of reasons given for why guys want the ball down. As I said before, having the ball down isn't a dealbreaker...it just potentially adds time to the release.
darinslack 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy The ball will inevitably come up...and where it starts post drop with pocket movement included will impact this, but once the "intent to move" is indicated I believe there are some things that need to be considered - internal rotation (dipping), off side discipline, hip orientation, separation, etc. that all impact the quality of the release. QB Coaches all have their hills they prefer to die on regarding "what they teach," about prepass, this isn't one for me.
darinslack 10 months ago
Now, I do have suggestions about ways to improve consistency of accuracy with regard to the wrist, etc. and that will affect how the ball locates on the body prepass, but there is no magic to a location in my opinion, it is understanding what a particular location does to the arm itself. Too high is just as influential, as too low...the key is understanding the non-negotiables of external rotation, elevation, alignment, timing, and extension...
darinslack 10 months ago
I didn't mean to attribute the phrase "on the shelf" to you, nor did I mean it as a derogatory phrase. I don't even know where exactly the phrase came from, but it appears to me (correct me if I am wrong) that the phrase could be a discription of how you are holding the ball in your video? I have seen your videos and remember being very impressed by your attention to detail.
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
that will lead the player to do things that will cause people to draw conclusions about what we teach by what they observe on video...such as us being for the ball "on the shelf." We mention no such concept. but what we do explain will encourage an upper chest ball position without really ever having to say, "put the ball here." The key is making a compelling argument for why we do something, let the player or coach observe the results, and they choose to continue it on their own
darinslack 10 months ago
Not trying to be cryptic, but when the rationale for doing something is explained beyond just "put the ball here" for reasons of protection. personal preference or tradition. An explanation of how any position will ultimately impact the release...that reasoning generates a response in the player...and they choose what to do about it. on their own. A much more compelling way to achieve lasting results. Unfortunately, some don't have the choice, so we help them with work arounds.
darinslack 10 months ago
Comment removed
darinslack 10 months ago
the second one has better protection on the ball before the throw, in case of a sack. IMO you can give the ball more power for longer throws with the second guy motion. The first one may be more effective on shorter passes because of the quick release. Seems like the second one throws more smoothly for an easier reception from the WR. But mostly i think what has changed is about the protection of the ball.
EmpPartidos 10 months ago
Good points: Interestingly, if you time the throw-motion from the time there is ANY body movement (in this case, the front foot is the very first thing that moves in both motions) the 2nd thrower is a fraction of a second faster, but if you start the clock only on ball-movement, the 1st guy's ball comes out faster. Which is the correct way to time it?
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy
This is fun...I have had a chance to view your comments and thoughts and respect very much the balanced view you take to each throw...something I have always respected about you as I have reviewed your material and comments...Always a bit dangerous to post a video like this because generalizations can easily be made...few thoughts...
Ball position...on the shelf as you call it...we make a distinction between drop position and pre-pass
darinslack 10 months ago
The video only reflects a static ball position framed for a specific purpose...I am very much for a more fluid drop position across the chest, we just emphasize the distinction to assist us in separating the mechanics of the motion from the drop for purposes of correction and adjustment...We time from the front hand coming off the ball, as this is the most consistent measurement you can make across all QBs...Stride length fluctuates...my stride is typically much shorter, however
darinslack 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy
For this video, I lengthened it to demonstrate that regardless of stride length on a throw, a quick release is still possible when ball separation is disciplined - which you identified very impressively in your breakdown. I prefer a much shorter stride normally, but again...context is lost in a single video. The other component of the "on purpose" stride length is the challenge of proper weight transfer, which we highlight in some important and unique ways.
darinslack 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy
No goal to avoid assessment, I just thought it might be interesting to offer some of the considerations that don't typically get covered when this video gets reviewed. In terms of ball exposure to impact, we really address that in the pocket movement discussion...this is really about that moment of commitment to throw, where much of those things have already been dealt with - unless we get blindsided :-) Thanks for a fair breakdown...very rare.
You have a very nice motion
darinslack 10 months ago
@darinslack Hi Coach Slack -- I'm teaching class right now but I appreciate you taking the time the view the video -- I've been asked to write a research article on different throwing positions -- you are very detailed so I picked yours..
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy Understood. Not sure what is meant by throwing positions...is that motions? I presume...good luck with that....I would be interested to read your findings...can you send me a link when its done?
darinslack 10 months ago
@darinslack Coach Slack -- 'throwing positions' meaning where you hold the ball before the throw-motion begins... Coach Martz (if my notes are correct) likes his QBs to hold the ball lower near the belly so that the ball is well-protected, the motion always has whip to it, and the hand offs & throws all start from the same general area. Brady and others start very low. So there are many types of throw-positions - I just would like to know the reasons for each.
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy Okay, that's helpful...I am sure there are many reasons for this...lots of different positions...All the best in your effort...let me know if I can help in any way...be glad too.d
darinslack 10 months ago
@darinslack I do have a request coach Slack -- could you film yourself (of film someone) throwing with the technique that you teach so I have a valid throw-motion to compare to? Part of the research is being able to show all the different types of throw-motions. I've got some Montana video where he really seems to drop the ball almost to his waist and some Marino video where he never even takes a step into the throw - both excellent throwers...
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@darinslack I do have a request coach Slack -- could you film yourself (or film someone) throwing with the technique that you teach so I have a valid throw-motion to compare to? Part of the research is being able to show all the different types of throw-motions. I've got some Montana video where he really seems to drop the ball almost to his waist and some Marino video where he never even takes a step into the throw - both excellent throwers...
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy Sorry to take so long, but I want to lay a fair groundwork: While we may, and do make clear distinctions about prepass, and while that may elevate the positions some, the reasons are different than the norm. Regardless, we work with any expectation. Trying to get a straight answer as to why they want it.? Often we can't get that straight answer...they just do it cause that's how they were told, or how its always been done. Hope this makes some sense - why do you do it?
darinslack 10 months ago
Personal Experience: I was taught to hold the ball high on the shelf, but during 11 o n 11 and expecially in the game, there is not a lot of room back there with all the bodys flying around so I kept it closer to my body, but perhaps I was wrong. Then I found that if I shortened my stride and threw (starting with the ball on my chest) I got much more power, control & ball RPM.
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
Finally, If I have a student with a very bad throw-motion, having him hold the ball high on the shelf is "almost" an instant fix. The less "throw-motion a QB has, the easier it is to control. Hold it up high, point your throw elbow forward, and the rest "just happens' so I really like both throw-motions for different reasons. The first thrower in the video starts by taking a long stride and once the foot hits the ground, the throw starts. Very clean and compact...
TopGunQBAcademy 10 months ago
@TopGunQBAcademy You know you've actually helped me with a kids throwing problem. He had a bad throwing motion, and even though you try to correct it, he still throws awkwardly. I told him to try holding the ball high, and it was an instant fix. So, thanks for the tip.
EmpPartidos 10 months ago
Just wheres he's carrying the ball, i dont know how to describe it really. It looks more fluid and natural.
marinoman100 11 months ago
yea im pretty sure that the second guy throws a better ball...
713Paco 11 months ago
Well the first guy is a better business-man -- makes a lot more money...
TopGunQBAcademy 11 months ago
But why?
TopGunQBAcademy 11 months ago
The second one looks way more like the throw motions of the NFL players.
marinoman100 11 months ago