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From: Mig29tvc
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  • The Sukhoi Su-35 is like, a new Russian bird that can beat any other jet fighter. From the looks of it, it seems to be an ordinary Generation 4 fighter, but it looks like a really fighter achievement, GOODLUCK TO THE RUSSIAN AIR FORCE!!!! But I'd like it better if its name was the SOVIET AIR FORCE. Sound's more powerful...

  • What is the chance of SU35 against F22 at BVR engagement?

  • @tosa275 this kind of engagment should never happen, the one who uses the best tactics will win, there's very few probability for a mid air 1 vs 1 interception config(no AtG amo)/ front direction /same altitude /same speed / no mountain / sun on side / no cloud /etc... depending of this factor could turn who win. even an old 1985 F16 can look and shoot down a f22 if the contact is made with this advantage

  • @tosa275 it is not enough to launch the missle to any the most modern fighter...there are a lot of contremesures on them from the electronic struggle to supermaneuvrability...so F-22A` BVR will not too efficient against Su-35C or EF for example...but if you want - if Su-35C can avoid the hitting strike from F-22A in BVR the final of battle will depend on the professionalism of the pilots...but of course the F-22A pilot has the advantage coz he can see Su-35C the first...

  • @dobrovolets777 how is he going to see him first? do you know much about avionics at all? if F 22 pilot will turn his radar on to see anything, he will instantly become "visible" for any other plane, lol. At that point he (F22) becomes vulnerable to any other fighter. And, as Americans say, if it will get in rainy weather it may just loose it's capability of being stealthy... 360 million useless peace of junk. Since it was introduced with Air Force, it did not participate in any real fight yet.

  • @vikruss I do not want to repeat everything again...please, look through my comments on this: wwwDOTyoutubeDOTcom/watch?v=qz­t7uaNBrI4

    I explain everything there...a lot of things depend on having the electronic warefare there...and I explain the relation of detection distance from the having EW for the stealth planes with low RCS...thank you.

  • @vikruss anyway - without covering of means of electronic warefare (directors of hindrances) and if the both fighters fly with switched on active radars then - F-22A can see Su-35C out to 250 km and Su-35C can see F-22A out to 108 km...but it has no matter for who will be the winner in such case because AIM-120C(4,5,6) has the effective (!) range not more than 30-50 km...and Su-35C middle range missles have approximate the same ranges...they lauch all the missles and will go away each.

  • @dobrovolets777 with all do respect, but I heard that SU 35 Radar is much more capable then 108 km. Unless it's not true, then i agree with what you say.

  • @vikruss no, the capacities of IRBIS-E NO35 are a bit over the capacities of AN/APG-77 of F-22A...capacities of IRBIS-E NO36 are higher than capacities of AN/APG-77 and approximate equal or maybe a bit higher than capacities of AN/APG-81...the capacity of detecting stealth target with RCS~0,01-0,05m2(without having interferences of AWACSs for example) out to 108-115 km is the best for nowadays.

  • Dang, that is one badass fighter, just made a white box outline in mid air.

  • @ BBEEAANN1 no need to cry ,,, ya baby!

  • @BBEEAANN1 u watch too much tv...

  • @BBEEAANN1 reply to "imao".u.s and russia r both bitches of the east,not so ignorant.."rolf"

  • one of the reasons i love Russia is that its a noble "giant".They dont mess with u until u mess with them first.Not like other countries who put their noses everywhere..(uhmm..US)

  • your lose...

    S-400 is ineffective against newest aircraft because of...

    google... Meta-Materials/UCB

    if they have allowed Dr Zhang to talk after 20 years even a little then

    F-22 m and B-2 m are in use and in the air wings...

    I know some of the East Germans still miss their Russian bf's but dont worry...they might let ya go visit him...lol

  • from USAF after action report all evidence suggest that it was ZSU-44 that got the hit...lol

    nice try though...lmao

    Colonel Dani wouldnt be first officer to try to claim an unjustified kill...lol

    officers have been doing it for hundreds of years...bastards...

    btw...F-117 is 20 year old tech...F-22,F-35 and B-2 are much better...lol

    thanks for the laugh...have a nice day anyways...

  • australia shouldve bought these instead of f18Es.

  • to all idiots who give comments like F-22 IS BETTER, F22 CAN DESTROY 10 OR 20 OR WHATEVER THE NUMBER 0F SU-??, S 4OO IS USELESS AGAINST IT AND SIMILAR remember the F-117A.americans claimed that it was ABSOLUTELY invisible.well we SERBIANS destroyed it with 40 years old modified S-125.and one unconfirmed information-one B-2 was heavily damaged during 99 kosova war and crashed in Republika Srpska woods so we didn't have any debris to prove since KFOR collected it.

  • @ACACARRR

    Serbian military sucked...lol

    if you have 40+ ZSU AA guns around a city and all of the them firing them yeah..ya got lucky...it's called a golden bb...that was no missle hit on the F-117...lmao

    you can claim that it was lucky shot by guns but your smoking weed if you think a missile hit it...

    much less a B-2...lmao

    hint...google...meta-materials­/ucb

    Dr.Zhang wouldnt be allowed to talk if USAF didnt already have this on Aircraft...

  • @wyrdmagyk4 f117 isn't hit by zsu which has effective range about 3000 m it was hit by, as i already wrote, by 40 year old modified s-125 Neva ( SA-3 Goa NATO ) and that's a FACT. Colonel Zoltan Dani was in command of a 3. battalion 250. Missile Brigade which shoot down f117 and that brigade is armed with s 125 NEVA. and that is a FACT. so don't write any more nonsense about zsu

  • @ACACARRR

    Brate Srbine , objasnio si sve ovim komentarom

  • @ACACARRR yes you shot down the f-117 because you used s-125 with very long wavelengths making the aircraft visible for brief periods,BUT NO ONE said it was absolutely invisible rather than hard to detect and NO b-2 was shot downed in any war as of 2012,one b-2 was crashed On 23 February 2008, the Spirit of Kansas, 89-0127 due to pilot error. PS: FUCK ALL BITCHES WHO THUMPS UP THIS SHIT

  • You live in the Cold War mindset. The USA and Russia will NOT fight a war against each other. At least not in the next 50 years. Later than that, nobody knows.The USA is in serious financial trouble, and its military is still swamped in Iraq and Afghanistan occupying both countries and fighting against fundamentalists, with the morale shattering effect any protracted campaign has over the troops. And also neither Russia nor the USA have any interest or reason to challenge one another militarily.

  • MIG <3

  • Fuck F-22!Russia forever!KOSOVO IS SERBIA!

  • No no this isn't SU-35 !!! This is Su-27 !!!

  • I can only imagine what maneuvers will be developed for this plane in Lipetsk centre. Once the full potential is understood and tapped it will be an insanely dangerous fighter to go up against.

  • Yeah this is very impressive but still the F-22 would shoot this down,and this would shoot the F-22 down,as far as i see it doesnt matter.

  • guys cold war is over

  • This is the only Russian fighter i like,but i like our fighters better.

  • @1bearcatf8f rly?

    i dont like american techniques style

    it always looks like if you take an axe and bat some plastic

    in my opinion your f22 and your hamve are very ugly..

    russian tech is not only very beautiful in my opinion, but has very good parameters and quality too

  • @gazakind Dude the F-22 is better in my opinon cuz it would see you way before you would ever think its in your airspace.With its AMRAAMs these "unstealthy" planes would be dead,but the Su-35 could win in a close quarters incounnter.

  • @1bearcatf8f well f22 would fail an dogfight anyway..

    its not made to do dogfight

    it has very bad aerodynamic, which affects on its agility...

    and f22 does not even have an gun, which can be very helpful in close combat

    and that "stealth" does not realy work since russia put thair new radars in thair techniques

    well radar signature may be smaller, but the computer interprets it as a plane anyway, because it does not look on the size of the radarsignature, but on its structure

  • @gazakind Trust me i have my feelings that the F-22 will win many dogfights,just like the F-15,NO US F-15 has ever been shot down.MiG-29s and Su-27s are the most formitable opponent for the raptor.But that stuipid T-50 wouldnt helo,sence its exhaust trail is visible so the F-22 would see it before the T-50 sees thge F-22

  • @1bearcatf8f not even a dog give a crap on your feeling

    an f22 has no chance in dogfight

    its simly not made for dogfights

    su27 was graded as the best fighter in an 20 km distance

    and even a jew knows that everything about 20km is just a thing of weapons and radars and has nothing to do with jets agility or even pilots skill

    there are many countries prefering russian modern jets :D

    i give you a hint.. look up for MAKS

    its great and you get very much information

  • @gazakind BULL SHIT the F-22 is designed for dogfights.

  • @1bearcatf8f WHAT? DOGFIGHT? what kind of moron are you? f22 has one of the badest aerodynamic geometry in powerplant using planes in history (badest was f117) it has a awful mobility and dont even has an mg.... "f22 was designed for dogfight" the last plane designed for dogfight by us was shorlty after the second world war after that they always told "no no no dogfight is over" only thing which is a pro for the f22 is the little bit lower radar signature but no chance against modern radar
  • @gazakind Moron????? dude your saying the F-22 sucks wich has never been in combat before DUH.Your just saying this shit cuz you hate the F-22.There im done argueing with your imature kid ass.

  • @1bearcatf8f IT SIMPLY CAN NOT NOT SUCK!!!

    it has not even the basics for dogfight...

    many youre quite stupid..

    how do you want to drive your car without engine and control?

    its not possible

    same in that case

    f22 has the aerodynamic of an flying school bus

    wake up kid ass

  • @gazakind

    S-300 useless...fact

    S-400 useless...against F-22M

    S-500 Prototypes only 15% effective....almost useless...

    Russian prototype of SLE radar type...against F-22M...useless...

    enjoy...

  • @wyrdmagyk4 where did you got that crap from?

    without a source, your comment is coined bullshit.

    my sources say that the 30n6e can detect radar signature sizes similar to f22.

    the 92N6 can detect a f22 on up to 650 km distance and can be taken under attack by 40N6 rockets on 400 km distance.

    i got that informations from (remove the blanks):

    rusarmy. com/pvo/pvo_vvs/zur_9m96e_9m96­e2. html

    rian.ru/defense_safety/weapons

    btw f22 was made to push us economy and not to make your foces stronger

  • @wyrdmagyk4 how stupid are you? S-400 has stealth detection, + its missile speed is something NO plane can escape or outmaneuver, because the S-400 is meant to intercept other missiles primarily. The F 22 is pure propaganda crap, it is very old now, fucking expensive to both fly and mantain, has no spare parts in production, sensitive to weather conditions, the F 22 is useless, the S-400 is something to be feared of, and UNIQUE.

  • @wyrdmagyk4 : You have no idea what you are talking about. When it comes to missiles there you have one field where the USSR, now Russia surpassed the U.S.A., and it´s been like that for good while. Try to remember the dreaded U-2 shot down by the Soviet missile defense system in 1960. In reality, it´s nearly impossible -or maybe impossible indeed- to escape the S-400, not even the F-22; remember that stealth DOESNT MEAN invisible, and the S-400 has a Match 11 speed, so do the math.

  • @vonkaunaz

    and you never have seen the F-22-M...or the B-2BRM...

    google...Meta-Materials/UCB

    The USAF has stuff you never dreamed off...

    S-300 useless...S-400...next to useless...enjoy...

  • @wyrdmagyk4 : Yes, i believe the U.S. has stuff "i never dreamed of". But...the thing is will the U.S. have the money to develop them and put them into production? The happy financial times of the U.S. are over, and you will experience significant cuts in military budgets in the near future. If you think the U.S. military will continue to have all those hundreds and hundreds of billions at its disposal to develop and buy new weapon systems from its contractors you are very wrong.

  • @vonkaunaz

    you underestimate us...I never underestimated Russia...I think your in for surprise...

  • @wyrdmagyk4 Не будь таким наивным!!!!! С-300 а тем более С-400 для американцев как кость в горле, а ваши ф 117 стелс, обыкновенный миг 29 сбивал.

  • Su-35BM is a multi-role fighter, witch means it is made to performe air superiority role, ground strike, naval strike, interception, etc. This is one of the advantages of the new Su-35Bm. And it would easily outmaneouver an f-15 figther. You can see on the video the ease of the flanker at low speeds, and a impressive climb just after a stall speed, the new engines realy made it a lot powerfull, and the aerodynamics are much more eficient in this one. This is by far the best Flanker.

  • красавец, да и только

  • doing manuvers like that really stress the airframes so these planes might not be around long

  • 1bearcatf8f,

    I wouldn't worry about that because it's a Russian build plane and Russian planes are known for their structural strenght. Both military and civilian.

  • But still its a pretty expesive aircraft and Russia isnt made of money like they used to be,And russia doesnt have the funds for war so they couldnt win against another country.But still its a great plane

  • 1bearcatf8f,

    Why bringing up war? I only posted about Russian planes structural strenght.

    It is indeed a great plane. Even greater that the canards are gone. It's much more beautiful and effective this way.

  • Forget the war thing ok.Yeah the su-35 is my favorite russian fighter.Our f-22 is nothing in manurverbility,But no f-15c has ever been lost in air to air combat so id like to see an su-35 vs f-15c dogfight.

  • 1bearcatf8f,

    I already have lol. The SU-35 BM is also my favourite fighter together with the SU-27 SKM.

    I never liked the canards on the older SU-35.

    The F-22 is quite manoeuvrable but that's mainly because of it's massive thrust to weight ratio. The Sukhoi's are aerodynamicaly superiour. In a dogfight the F-22 sustains a banking manoeuvre langer than the older SU-35 or SU-37. The SU-35BM has lost weight and has new engines wich makes this the most manoeuvrable and powerful Sukhoi of them all.

  • 1bearcatf8f,

    I would like to see that also. I hope that one day the Russian's participate in Red Flag.

    Would be awesome to see.

  • and you don't think they design fighter planes for doing maneuvers like that? your dumb...thats no cessna 150 in this video..

  • Like im suppost to be insulted by you???Its just a video and i gave my opinun and if you hate then tuff.

  • i would like to know, arent those Su-35 pretty expensive as well? they look at least 60 million$ each, if not more... and considering the russian economy (which took one of the biggest blows in the crisis) isnt really that succesfull, what is the fate of the future russian air industry?

  • To jest nie samowite. Szkoda że w Radomiu w 2009r na Pokazach staciliśmy Su i wspaniałych pilotów

  • last time I've heard it was 99 f15 shot down during WW2

  • because he didn't been never in fer fight.

  • I just hope that the Russian VVS will buy the Su-35BM(even if I read that is only for export) or some other Sukhoi family supermaneuverable airplane to continue kicking some american asses.

  • They will buy 182 by 2020, together with a similar number of SU 34's and maybe 50 PAK-FA's.

  • Oh,really. I'll be glad. But didn't they say that the Su-35BM is ONLY for export?Could you tell where did you read that information?I'll be glad for the Su-34 and the PAK-FA too.

  • The 182 total for the SU35BM and the PAK-FA's figure are from Global Security (september 2008). 200 Su-34s are expected be in service by 2020. This was confirmed by Air Force chief Vladimir Mikhailov on March 6, 2007. Sukhoi assigned the designation Su-35 to the export version of the Su-27M, it's not the SU35BM.

  • Well,thanks for the answers.If there are some news,please let me know.Thank you again.

  • well the indian su27 took out f15 & 16 during cope india excercise which was an eye opener for the US air force. imagine what would theirsu30 mki would do to f22. You can google this also . Its just that USAF have been quiet lately.

  • @djsal510 India dont have Su-27s for your info, they have MKIs only !

  • @djsal510

    in Redflag 2007 8 Su-30 lost badly to 2 F-22a...

    the fight took only 1:27 minutes...

    in all "Offficial"comp's the F-22 is 408-2...

    and those 2 were called KIA because they left the borders too fast after "killing" 8 Typhoons...

    USAF is preparing F-22M...

    google..."Meta-Materials/UCB"

    that is newest Skin for F-22M...

  • @djsal510

    India came to red flag in '08 and got their butts kicked. No amraam was used at Cope India and the U.S. were heavily out numbered. Sorry if this starts a flame :)

  • @djsal510 Whole story: During Cope India, the F-15s were outnumbered 3 to 1. They were forbidden from using AWACS and BVR. And the most experienced F-15 pilot had less than 500 hours. The least experienced Indian pilot had 850 hours. When the IAF went to Red Flag and flew against pilots of equal experience they lost EVERY engagement. This includes the 1V1 gunfights where the Su-30s were flying clean against F-15s with fuel tanks. The Su-30 has no chance against the F-22.

  • i choose a f-15 strike eagle over this any day=)

  • Thomlistentoslayer,

    Wrong choice by you :-)

    And a strike eagle (F-15E) is for ground attacks.

    The SU-35BM is a air superiority fighter.

    You should compare the SU-35BM to the F-15C.

  • Beautiful Bird!

  • This in not just a regular Su-27 with a catchy, new camo style, it IS the new Su-35.

    Most obvious differences(upgrades actually), are the TVC nozzles(vector thrust), new type tail-boom,enlarged rudders, new cockpit, in-flight refueling probe, twin nose-wheels and many others.

  • why remove the canards?

  • to reduce RCS

  • RCS? if u dont mind me asking.

  • Radar Cross Section

  • Canards increase drag, weight and RCS considerably thus reducing the total range and speed of the plane. It's a double edged sword to have canards.. that's why the Su-35BM got rid of them.

  • this is a Su-27 with a different paint the Su-35 also has different tails , these ones have sloped fins the 35's fins are horizontal on top and not sloped like Su-27 ;)

  • yea this definately is not the su-35

  • this looks like the su-37 terminator, not the su-35

  • Its only a cycle, when USA had the Sabre, USSR had the Mig-17, when USA had the F-16, USSR had the MiG-29, when USA develop the new Super Hornet, Russia developed the new Su-27(Su-35), now that's true that USA has the advantage with their Raptor but earlier or later Russia will show his new generation of fighters.

  • hey u forgot about the f15 what your answer for that

  • The Su-27/Su-35 was the Russian answer to both the F-18 and the F-15. The Eagle was a great development to the USAF but everybody knows the superior capabilities of the Su-27

  • RUSSIA best

  • Красивый, быстрый, маневренный, тяжеловоз, очень прочный(10g - с ума сойти, далеко не каждый человек выдержит) - идеальный истребитель, идеальное оружие.

  • why did they get rid of the canards on the new Su-35?

  • they did it to reduce the radar cross section not only that but alot of modification but that's the tell tale sign on the difference between Su-35 to Su-35BM.

  • the canards are there on the su-35, this is not the su-35

  • This is the NEW SU-35, also known as SU-35MB. SU-35 with canards is the hit from 90s.

  • @Mig29tvc So it has canards or it doesnt? Im confused

  • @TonyFirelli

    Without canards is the newest and most advanced version of SU-35.

  • @Mig29tvc But I thought canards like on Su-47 Su-37 Su-33 was advanced and was making it better in mobility...

  • @TonyFirelli

    No. Tis SU-35 is the most maneuverable fighter ever made on the planet. This is very new so it was never performing maneuvers on the air-show. Hier is one video for example.

    /watch?v=DCWB6dZ6Mrc

    This is NOTHING compared what with this version of SU-35. Wait for MAKS-2011 and you will see.

  • @Mig29tvc Ahh ok I see... I love MAKS I can't make it so I'll try to watch it one tv or something is there a chance of a MAKS -20...? I should make it on the one after the 2011! :D

  • Su-35BM (big modernization). Canards were removed to reduce RCS

  • @kibabiba And improve drag performance ;)

  • This is not su35 looks like su27 because su35 has forward conards.

  • This is THE NEW SU-35, the most advanced russian heavy fighter. Some sources calls this model SU-35BM.

  • excellent pilot

  • No, it is the new SU-35. Very sutble extenal differences, but has Thrust Vectoring and brand new software.

  • its essentially a variant of Su-27 by western categorization.

    Only few russian planes out there are Flanker, and Fulcrum...

  • No....it has:

    -RCS reduction (RCS < 1m2).

    -3D-Thrust Vectoring

    -450km Irbis-E radar

    -LCD avionics

  • J can not see the moveing of trust vector... so J think it will be much more agile...

  • The Best 4º++ estate-of-the-art!!!!!!!

    QUEREMOS SUKHOI NA FAB!!!! FORÇA AEREA BRASILEIRA

  • Looks like you're getting Rafale's.

  • no not after but in front of

  • yes I agree

  • HAHAHAAHH dumb mother fucker, if you have no notion go to mcdonalds and eat something you fuckin phat burgerbrain.

  • I love you too, Nigga.

  • Actually he's right...it is Su-27! Su-35 has canard foreplanes and taller tails with squared-off tips.

  • nope, the NEW 2007 Sukhoi-35, not the older 1995 version which had canards indeed, called Su-35BM for Bolshoy Modifikatsiya of Big Modification doesn't have canards anymore. They were judged inadequate for flight with 3D TVC

  • What a beautiful landing. Looked like he was putting the plane through more of a work out, almost an airshow type display.

  • co2

  • Do the Russians always do air show acrobatics for test flights?

  • Why does it still use a chute to break though?

  • It just looks so... plain, without them canards... kinda sad really.

    Well, this is coming from an old ace combat Su-37 fanboy, so...

    Still, this jet is amazing. Better than the Su-37 and with LO qualities too!

  • F22 Fodder.

  • lol, as is any other plane ,besides the raptor, by your "logic".Whatever. Just wait for the brother PAK-FA.Because for the moment no plane is in thesame leage as the f-22. Maybe the reason why you didn't say for example "F-15 fodder" or "F-18 fodder" is because the BM is the best in ITS leage.

    And BTW, F-22 is S-400 fodder, lol!

  • S400? The IAF had no trouble dealing with Syrian S400 with F15/F16 so I don't think the F22 would have any trouble.

    You work in Russian arms sales? They always employ the best propagandist, they need to in order to keep selling their junk.

  • If we go that way, mind to provide us your sources?

  • The Syrians had no s400s!!!! And if your talking about a war between Iran and Israel, then think a bit, Israel has no F22. And they wont get it now, It seems like if there are any war then it will come, in the end of this year. And they wont have the time to buy them. But their F16s and 15s shuld be god enough, But the IDF has nothing agains the 11000+ rockets that will rain in.

  • Syria lost 2 Pantsir systems in the Israeli raid, IceSwe1245. Their supposed state-of-the-art radars failed to detect Israel's 4th gen. F-15s and F-16s as they flew inside Syrian airspace. The Syrians along with the Iranians (who have Pantsirs on order) summoned Russian representatives to ask how such an event could have occurred. No Syrian S400s, that's true, but an example of promises not leading to results with Russian military hardware, to be sure.

  • As far as I heard they didn't lose any Pansirs, and that they were not operational at the time of the air raid.

  • Would they admit it if they had, vtkrey? So they had Pantsirs, but they weren't operational, and they didn't lose them? What would have prevented them from being attacked, operational or not? Would Syria also admit that they are buying Pantsirs that will be forwarded to Iran? According to Israeli sources ther is evidence that 2 Pantsirs were destroyed at the site of the incomplete reactor.

  • Why then ,vtkrey, are there several accounts of Syria and Iran summoning Pantsir's exporters to explain what happened in the raid, i.e. how could have Israel's 4th gen F-15s and F-16s have flown unnoticed through Syrian airspace. Some of these sources are Arab, and not Israeli or Western. According to Israeli estimates proior to the raid, Syria possessed more than 200 anti-aircraft batteries of varying types.

  • I did not hear any reports of "lost" Pansir systems from any sources, and if the Syrians need some else to explain to them what happened within their own borders with their own military equipment, it's seems that they were not ready, I presume there was no attempt to target them if as you were saying they could not even detect the aircraft,and those 200 anti - aircraft systems were useless, I believe that the syrians screwed up,they were not ready for it and the Pansir's were not operational.

  • The Israelis stated 2 Pantsirs were destroyed, vtkrey, and I've even heard there are photos. At least 2 Arab sources were saying similar things. Syria's latest toys were being tested (part of the reason for hitting an unfinished reactor), and supposedly didn't fare well. It would have been more damaging to a budding nuclear program to let Syria invest millions in getting the facility complete, and then destroy it. Part of the mission was to test the latest Russian kit, also destined for Iran.

  • It has been described as a dress rehearsal for s strike on Iran, vtkrey. Active jamming was utilized, and apparently to such an extent that civilian communications in both Syria and Lebanon were disrupted for several hours on the night of the raid. One Kuwaiti source went as far as to say that US jets provided aerial cover for the Israeli planes, and may have been the source for the active jamming.

  • Reports from Arab sources also say that Syria and Iran summoned Russian representatives, asking why the Pantsirs were ineffective, vtkrey. The Kuwaiti source said "Russian experts are studying why the two state-of-the-art Russian-built radar systems in Syria did not detect the Israeli jets entering Syrian territory". Shortly after the raid on 27SEP07, Russian sources announced that they would be enhancing the electronics on more than 1000 medium-range air-defense systems. Coincidental timing??

  • This still those not tell me anything more than everyone is confused because everyone has a different story, you are only picking out the sources that have stories describing that the Russian Anti-air systems failed, you took all this time to find all these "sources".

  • I read about the events in the days following the raid with interest, vtkrey, and didn't do the research to answer a YouTuber's replies. Sorry. The accounts, from vastly different sources with different points of view, have many similarities. Do you think for a minute Syria and Russia would come forward truthfully about the events? Russia has egg on its face, because their "state-of-the-art" system was defeated, and Syria would never come clean about obtaining nuclear materials from North Korea.

  • Which one should we believe?, if any? some say the Pansyr systems got jammed others say the jets flew away after being fired at, others say the jets destroyed the Pansyr systems, others say the systems were not there, yet others say the Russians are upgrading their systems, presumable they realised that they are not effective, and some say the US helped, another one says Isreal reported that it found "nuclear installation stocked by North Korea" and bombed it.

  • I assume you understand what i think of all this "shit", so you can stop confincing me now.

  • Who is trying to be "confincing", vtkrey? The way it's been reported by several unrelated sources is: First, intelligence assets on the ground tracked materials from a North Korean freighter supposed to be carrying cement to a site in Syria, and watched the goings-on for approx. 3 days. Second, the raid on the site would also provide intelligence about the capabilities of a purported "state-of-the-art" Russian anti-aircraft system (one that would soon be in use in Iran). Following so far?

  • You are looking at the one point of view of all this and ignoring the other. You said yourself the Syrians have 200 anti-aircraft systems, pressumably some of those were "active" Pansyr's and if what the Russians said about their capabilities was true, I don't think Isreal would have risked getting their jets blown out of the sky, just to bomb some facility or as now you are changing your story to and/or check the Pansyr's capabilities, so are you following me?.

  • The whole point is that what the Russians claimed about the capabilities WASN'T and ISN'T true, vtkrey. That's why, after the embarrassing results of the Israeli raid, they were forced to upgrade not only Pantsir's but other existing anti-aircraft systems' electronics. Israel wasn't risking anything, as they evidently had a pretty good idea of Pantsir's capabilities (or lack thereof, as it turned out). They got a 2-for-1 in the deal.

  • Israel took out Syria's nuclear facility (defended by 2 Pantsir systems) and learned about the Pantsir's capabilities before taking them out at the nuclear site. Why is this so hard to follow, vtkrey? Are you upset because Russia's "state-of-the-art" was outwitted by the Israelis and/or their allies?

  • Stop trying to convince me that your favoured side of the story is the correct one, because you don't know more that me on this, the only difference between us is, you hate to see Russians have this new state of the art system, so you are doing anything you can to convince yourself and others that its not affective.

  • Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that your desired version is somehow true, despite all the circumstantial evidence to the contrary, vtkrey. Russia's boast is that the system is state-of-the-art, but evidently someone found a way around it. Why else would Russia be having to upgrade the electronics on brand new Pantsir systems so close on the heels of the Israeli raid? They were brand new systems after all, only recently delivered to Syria.

  • During the flight into Syrian airspace, their defenses were jammed (either by the US or Israel-doesn't matter either way, does it?). At the nuclear site, 2 Pantsir systems were active (data on their capabilities was collected). These were jammed, and destroyed by missiles, along with the structure at the site. Third, after studying information from Israel's incursion, Russia announces upgrades to their anti-aircraft system's electronics. To hear you tell it, it's all just coincidence. Or not...

  • Don't get me wrong i'm not trying to favor the Pansir or say you are wrong but its just what I heard and believe.

  • "Syria lost 2 Pantsir systems in the Israeli raid"

    It's lie actually, Israel propaganda. Bullshit.

    Syria still don't have "Pantsir" systems fully deployed or delivered.

    Their best air-defence is outdated s-200. It's still capable to shot down planes, but Syrians don't have these old systems in sufficient set for full covering anti-air protection.

  • Unfortunately for you version of the story, ukrainesuperpower87, it's not just Israel that's reporting what happened. Sources in the Arab world (no firend or ally to Israel) have said Syria and Iran expressed grave concerns about the ease with which Israel defeated the 2 Pantsir systems at the nuclear site. Are you saying they're lying, too? FWIW, it looks like you're wrong in saying Syria's S-200s were "sufficient set for full covering anti-air protection", as many of them were overflown.

  • Greetings, I would like to know which arab sources you claim to have about this curious event. I hope you do know that there isn't any evidence so far of a Syrian nuclear site. What I do know is that this story comes from Debka agency (Israeli Gov. related), the same people that were convincing the world about WMD in Irak or that Saddam was invading Jordan in 2002. Besides, Pantsyr were just delivered and are supposed to work with S-300PMU/S-400 network, not 1970's hardware.

  • There are photos of the site, and the building on it, lape2002. There are the after photos as well, of the site razed clean. This, when taken in the larger context of Syria's still refusing to allow inspection of the cite, is very interesting. One news source was Kuwaiti, and I can't recall the other (the original articles are at my work, but I'll try to post up Tuesday, to answer your question). Additionally, Iranian sources corroborate the summoning of the Russians to explain Pantsir's failure

  • Pantsir is supposed to be able to function as a stand-alone system as well, lape2002, according to its makers. Syria refused to acknowledge that the raid had occurred for several days, but the info was finally acknowledged. Israel eventually admitted it as well. As I said, there are satellite photos of the site, both before and after. Believe what you like, but to claim the single source is Debka, isn't correct. What of the Syrian claims of jamming of their communications networks?

  • Kuwaiti newspaper Al Watan was one of the Arab sources, lape2002 (still looking for the other version). Syrian and Lebanese media reported that civilian communications were shut down for several hours during the night of 06SEP07, caused by suspected Israeli jamming. Russia announces on 27SEP07 that they were enhancing the electronics on more than 1000 air-defense systems, including Pantsir (right on the heels of the successful raid, after supposedly analyzing the data). Coincidence? Hardly...

  • actually the EF2000 is in the same leauge as the Raptor. it has  beeaten it in mock dogfights in BVR and CQ combat. Theyre both practically supermenouvaralbe, cuz the EF is aerodynamically unstable it can pull good turns in supersonic and slow speed, and as for stealth, well it wasnt much use in BVR for the raptor. both have supercruise

  • or not?