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From: 2bsirius
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  • To quote Einstein:

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

    I think that kind of sums it up........

  • I don't know about Rick Perry but its seems like he is just on the idealist end of the spectreum. No big deal. I mean even a established philosopher like Richard Rorty thinks that science is a social practice. There is no difference between politics and science. And think of Marx, he thought that the society anticipates desasters, even cultural, and more even natural desaster. We will have credible scientists that will persuave the consensus. (I don't believe it, but I am just thinking.)

  • Proud member of the Giordano Bruno Foundation.

  • There was a long list of charges against Bruno,a s I'm sure you're aware. The multiplicity of worlds looks overwhelming important to us because we know its true, but I suspect the ones that look to us like nonsense (e.g., quibbling over the trinity), weighed far more heavily against him with the tribunal that condemned him. I think 'martyr for science' is at best an oversimplification.

  • @HConstantine I see I responded here before (I did feel some deja vu). I guess you don't answer critical evaluation.

  • I'm ashamed to admit that I live in Texas! I'm 60 years old and Rick Perry is about the same age, and he's obviously a product of American schools where the quality of education has been in a steady decline down the crapper for decades. The USA is a country where an innocent kid in the 5th grade can get his head bashed up against a concrete block wall by a sports obsessed teacher who would not allow him to check out Astronomy books from the school library. Yeah! That actually happened to me!

  • Rick Perry is so stupid, I am almost ashamed to be of the same species, lat alone from the same country.

  • Still don't know how we ever got out of this darkness.

  • Actually Bruno was executed because of his views on the trinity, the incarnation, and transubstantiation (it turns out the churchmen of that era thought atomism was incompatible with transubstantiation; they charge Galileo with the same, but, since he knew no proof of atoms, he was willing to recant that). The plurality of worlds was on the bill of particulars, but they wouldn't have burned him if he recanted the doctrinal heresies.

  • Didn't Galileo write "Two New Sciences" in the last decade of his life? And I believe I saw his tomb in the Basilica of Santa Croce in Florence. Strange, if the church held him in such contempt!

  • @BugsMr123 He was allowed to publish anything he wanted, as long as he did it in Protestant countries.

  • If I believed in reincarnation (which of course I don't) I would say that Mr Perry is the reincarnation of a Spanish Inquisitor:)

    Check out Jon Stewarts ongoing series, Oh My God Rick Perry Is Going To Be Our Next President.The Tea Bagger debate on CNN the other night was horrific.It was a toss up as to what was worse. The speakers or the rabble they were rousing.

  • @angryislander56 Strange you should mention that, but belief in reincarnation--a doctrine of Pythagorean philosophy--was one of the charges for which Bruno was burned..

  • If I believed in reincarnation (which of course I don't) I would say that Mr Perry is the reincarnation of a Spanish Inquisitor:)

    Check out Jon Stewarts ongoing series, Oh My God Rick Perry Is Going To Be Our Next President.The Tea Bagger debate on CNN the other night was horrific.It was a toss up as to what was worse. The speakers or the rabble they were rousing.

  • I can't believe that there is someone I am less likely to vote for than Micelle Bachman, but Rick Perry some managed to top her.

    Human caused global warming is accepted by 98% of scientists with relevant research in the topic area. Why are so many GOP people so anti-science?

  • @danielcomments

    Yes, I'm trying to find out what happened in the debate last night. There are not televised here in the UK where I live and if they were it would appear here in the middle of the night, but the general point of the coverage is that the other candidates focused on his many unworkable policies and his inconsistencies. Seems to be about time.

  • Did anoyone else find the crowds reaction to hearing the number of people put to death during Perry's time as governer ironic seeing they(most) worship a god who's son was put to death on the cross? (and i'd think most christians would say that his death was UNJUST, too bad he didnt get a chance to phone his governer and get his sentense reduced to life in jail....)

  • Wasn't it Stephen Hawking that asked to see the trial papers of Galileo when asked what he would like to see while visiting the Vatican?

  • u better not get perry on your bad side sirius...he´s gonna be your next president.

  • @managarm1349

    Obvious dolt is obvious.

  • Your statement makes little sense to me. If he was convicted of heresy in 1616 that would have been the end of him. He was actually found vehemently suspect of heresy in 1633. Can you please offer citation for your statement?

    "According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system,

  • @benthemiester

    NO, it would in fact not be the end of him. Heretics were often given the chance to recant their 'heresies'.

  • (2) As for a list of good primary sources, the best way to see that is probably to google Galileo, Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy. An excellent and brief account of this is under the heading "Galileo and the Chruch". The entry begins: "In late 1632, after publishing Dialogues on the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to go to Rome to be examined by the Holy Office of the Inquisition. In January 1633, a very ill Galileo made an arduous journey to Rome". Hope that helps.

  • (3)

    If you scroll down to the bibliography entries, you'll find a lot of primary [and secondary sources] for this.

  • @2bsirius Fair enough, Maybe he was ordered to recant twice. I find this hard to believe but I could be wrong Can you cite evidence for the claim that he was convicted of heresy in 1616 or another time? I am not all knowing. If I am wrong I would like to know. I cant seem to find verification for this claim anywhere. I know that 1616 he was first warned about mixing academics with church doctrine. Could this be what your referring to? Again im willing to check out citation.

  • @benthemiester

    Go down in the section "Galileo and the Church" to the third or fourth paragraph, which begins, "Legitimacy of the content, that is, of the condemnation of Copernicus, is much more problematic. Galileo had addressed this problem in 1615, when he wrote his Letter to Castelli (which becomes known as the Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina)," and read from there, and as I said check out the bibliographical supports for the text. If you want more documentation, let me know.

  • @benthemiester

    Go down in the section "Galileo and the Church" to the third or fourth paragraph, which begins, "Legitimacy of the content, that is, of the condemnation of Copernicus, is much more problematic. Galileo had addressed this problem in 1615, when he wrote his Letter to Castelli (which becomes known as the Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina)," and read from there, and as I said check out the bibliographical supports for the text. If you want more documentation, let me know.

  • @benthemiester

    Go down in the section "Galileo and the Church" to the third or fourth paragraph, which begins, "Legitimacy of the content, that is, of the condemnation of Copernicus, is much more problematic. Galileo had addressed this problem in 1615, when he wrote his Letter to Castelli (which becomes known as the Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina)," and read from there, and as I said check out the bibliographical supports for the text. If you want more documentation, let me know.

  • @2bsirius cont....should not be based on one sided myths and legends. As for the notion that the church was anti science, its just false. Most of the first scholars that ushered in the modern sciences and the universes were founded by theologians. Again, most historians don't believe this often told story. You said that Galileo was convicted of heresy in 1616. Without you providing a citation for your statement, I cannot comment on it only to say that I am not aware of such a thing.

  • @benthemiester "On this day [April 12] in 1633, chief inquisitor Father Vincenzo Maculano da Firenzuola, appointed by Pope Urban VIII, begins the inquisition of physicist and astronomer Galileo Galilei. Galileo was ordered to turn himself in to the Holy Office to begin trial for holding the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which was deemed heretical by the Catholic Church. Standard practice demanded that the accused be imprisoned and secluded during the trial."

  • @PalulukanMakto cont. "This was the second time that Galileo was in the hot seat for refusing to accept Church orthodoxy that the Earth was the immovable center of the universe: In 1616, he had been forbidden from holding or defending his beliefs. In the 1633 interrogation, Galileo denied that he "held" belief in the Copernican view but continued to write about the issue and evidence as a means of "discussion" rather than belief."

  • @PalulukanMakto The Irony of this whole thing was that it was actually the church who thought that the world of mathematics or what we now call science, should not be mixed with religious doctrine. The rules were still in its infancy and it wasn't a perfect fine line, but the motto was that (God shows us how to get to heaven but man tells us how the heavens were made) Galileo should have stuck to this, and even he later admitted that he was treated fairly when he was not ordered to do so.

  • @PalulukanMakto No one disputes that this theologian and natural philosopher was placed under house arrest in beautiful villa with house servants or that he was shortly after given liberty to continue to come and go as he pleased to his laboratory. It is the circumstances that put him in this position that is the question. I have answered these in my previous threads. His crime was publicly challenging the church when he was told not mix academics with church doctrine. A promise he went back on.

  • @2bsirius cont......We only know he was right from a retrospective view. They did not. Other scholars were also challenging him based on mathematics of the day. He had no explanation for many of there arguments. The church has a lot to account for and I cant and wont defend it for the stupid and unjust or evil things the church did in the name of Christianity, and I don't think he should have been placed under house arrest nor do I support theocracies. I just feel that history

  • @2bsirius "This letter was a revised version of the Letter to Castelli, which was denounced by the Inquisition as an incursion upon theology by advocating Copernicanism both as physically true and as consistent with Scripture"

    Don't you remember I said he was told not get involved with church doctrine? He was not able to mathematically verify this proposition and he was challenging the science of the day as well, and more importantly church Doctrine.

  • @benthemiester Do you just mouth off before looking shit up? You can't even go through the effort of looking at 20-30 google search results? Someone with an average reading level can at least 20 find historian-verified sources in an hour. Please give that a try, OR READ A BIOGRAPHY OF GALILEO.

  • @PalulukanMakto What are you talking about and what is your point? What is it that I threaded that you feel is in error? I cant read your mind. Explain yourself.

  • cont.... and it was certainly not a heresy"

    "He met with opposition from astronomers, who doubted heliocentrism due to the absence of an observed stellar parallax.[11] The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, and they concluded that it could only be supported as a possibility, not as an established fact" and I already cited reasons for this position.

    "Unfortunately, the facts don't support this. I've read the literature

  • cont........ [a lot of it comes from Catholic apologist"

    Most of our records of Galileo trial in fact comes from Catholic archives so I'm not sure what your point is. Would it also be ok to disregard a view point just because a lot of the opposing view comes from atheist writers? I think you are much more intelligent than to think that.

    Pope Urban VIII friendship with Galileo is well known and recorded but

    in the same book he was given permission to write, he publicly attacked the pope

  • cont....... going back on his promise, or at least that was the impression of Urban Vlll……"Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits who had both supported Galileo up until this point" It was while Galileo was under house arrest that he dedicated his time to one of his finest works, Two New Sciences. Here he summarized work he had done some forty years earlier,

  • cont... on the two sciences now called kinematics and strength of materials. This book has received high praise from Albert Einstein.

    William Shea, M. A. The Galileo Affair 2006. Available online William Shea (January 2006)Sheila Rabin, "Nicolaus Copernicus" in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy 2005

    ^ Sharratt (1994, pp. 127–131), McMullin (2005a).

    Isabelle Pantin (1999), "New Philosophy and Old Prejudices: Aspects of the Reception of Copernicanism in a Divided Europe.

  • Rick Perry strikes me as but another of the whack-a-mole bible toting Evangelicals of the Dominionist/Fascist stripe who inhabit the far right of the political spectrum, who will invariably spring up during this time in the national political season, pandering to the religious fringe. Hopefully the more this type rambles on, in the national spotlight, the more the majority of citizens particularly in the political middle will see him for what he is, an overly religious neer-do-well.

  • @LGH666

    Yup, I think that pretty much says it all.

  • I'm not a big fan of anyone who uses Gods name for a campaign slogan including Perry, but Galileo who was a deeply religious theologian was not only given full permission by the inquisition, but even encouraged by the Pope to continue his work on the Copernicus principle including giving him full permission to publish his work Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. He was simply told to not meddle in Church affairs and to keep his work academic and separate from dogma and doctrine.

  • @benthemiester

    Unfortunately, the facts don't support this. I've read the literature [a lot of it comes from Catholic apologist btw] that Galileo was not really discouraged from publishing his intellectual dissent. Unfortunately, if you look at those claims in detail, you quickly see the flaws in them. He was found guilty of heresy by the Church first in 1616. Then In 1632, he was again condemned for heresy after his book 'Dialogue Concerning the Two World Systems, as you point out[Con't]

  • @benthemiester

    Unfortunately, the facts don't support this. I've read the literature [a lot of it comes from Catholic apologist btw] that Galileo was not really discouraged from publishing his intellectual dissent. Unfortunately, if you look at those claims in detail, you quickly see the flaws in them. He was found guilty of heresy by the Church first in 1616. Then In 1632, he was again condemned for heresy after his book 'Dialogue Concerning the Two World Systems, as you point out[Con't]

  • (2) was published. This set out the arguments for and against the Copernican theory in the form of a discussion between two men. Galileo was summoned to appear before the Inquisition in Rome for heresy yet again. He was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, later reduced to permanent house arrest at his villa in Arcetri, south of Florence. He was also forced to publicly withdraw his support for Copernican theory. The last ten years of his life were endured under this misery.

  • cont..... Galileo made a promise that he wouldn't, but over time he went back on his promise and continued to publicly scorn the church for not changing its position. You have to remember Galileo had many faults in his math and believed the Sun caused the tides. What may seem clear to us now, was not clear to other scholars based on the science and the mathematical formulas of the day. He was told to work on his mathematics and to better confirm this theory which was not

  • cont.....actually confirmed until long after his death. He was actually more despised by his non religious minded scientist counterparts that even refused to look into his telescope. Because he was so well respected by Church members in the end he was not convicted of heresy, he was instead put under house arrest in a beautiful villa with servants and was allowed to freely come and go to his lab when ever he pleased and continue his science. Even after his arrest he....

  • cont... remained an honored guest of Popes and Cardinals at events, and lived a life stye better than 95% of the population. I make no excuses for the 3000 who were executed during the 350 years of the Spanish inquisition. However it was Christian reformers that put an end to what was really a political endeavor started by Ferdinand and Isabella who felt (los conversos) were a threat to the crown. I also encourage people to actually read the history of Bruno as taught by critical historian.

  • Great video, thanks ! This guy is a real bummer, we really have to make sure he stays out of office

    The p in Ptolemaic is silent.

  • Thank you for talking about this! I am ASTOUNDED no one has jumped on Perry's statement regarding Galileo. How can such an ignorant comment by Perry go so unnoticed? It's just amazing.

  • I didn't think my estimation of Rick Perry could sink any lower.. until you drew my attention to his gapingly ignorant remarks about global warming and Galileo. thanks !

  • Galileo being "outvoted" is completely in keeping with the unfortunate trend in the U.S. to try to democratise truth.

    Don't worry though, there are many a smart american and many smart texan. You won't be tarred with the Perry brush. You need not feel any associative shame! :P

  • Now that you mention being from Texas, I realized you have the same accent as my paternal grandparents, who were also from Texas.

  • @fortheloveofwisdom

    It's strange that I still have an accent because I've lived all over the world since I was very young. If you think I have an accent, you should hear some of my relatives.

  • @2bsirius My grandfather was in the air force. So he and my grandmother also lived in many different places, typically among people from other places. So maybe you and my grandparents share a diluted Texas accent. I don't hear many Texans where I live, but I'll pay more attention to the accents of the Atheist Experience people.

  • @2bsirius You definitely do have the Texas accent. I have it too, though few people hear it. I fear Rick Perry could well be our next president. He hasn't really been vetted by the media yet. Then again, I don't trust the media to do their job of vetting much anymore. The basic problem is that Obama is going to be a weak candidate. That's what happens when you run on the slogan "change you can believe in" and then, well, short-change your constituents.

  • Perry is a Panderer. Perfect Politician for our time as he is playing to his constituents (sic). Rick Perry is just a mirror reflection of Americans minds & Souls.

    It occured to me the other day why are all the people running for President are Politicians? Politiicans have proven themselves to be incompetant,corrupt & lack understanding of critical Problems.

    Myself I would see a top Scientist run for President, but then the populace are interested in solutions only ideology.

  • @valhala56 I mean't to say in my last paragraph, the American Populace are NOT truly interested in Solutions only interested in their ideologiies, ie Tea Party.

    Therefore Perry is the perfect Politician sticking his thumb to the wind and going with his constituents desires which are Religious fundamentalism, Homo Intolerance, Uber Fiscal Conservatism, Anti Science and playing to the wishs of his constituants to execute as many Texans as possible, as seen as his answer to Brian Williams debate ?

  • You don't need to apologize, HE does, for being so pig-ignorant about science.

  • NOT VOTING FOR RICK PERRY; HE MAKES GOERGE BUSH SEEM INTELLIGENT.

  • @ttopperr And THAT is an accomplishment!!! ;)

  • @ttopperr LOL

  • Cosmology was a field I pursued at university (later overtaken by psychology/philosophy) and I still remember the visceral sick feeling I had on learning of Bruno's death and the circumstances surrounding it.

    Perry's ignorant remarks with regard to Galileo are frankly a disgrace. Like Palin and Bachmann, he is someone whose capacity for government is inversely proportional to his ambition. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

  • @QualiaSoup

    Your comment pretty much echoes my opinions on this.

  • @2bsirius What is unbelievable or makes you cringe about Rick Perry's statements? Most of your video discusses Galileo's and Giordano Bruno's circumstances but fails to identify *why* Perry's statement is inaccurate. (I don't agree with him, I do think you missed what could have been your most powerful point)

  • From what I know Bruno could avoid the burning but he got he Church's goat and probably did it on purpose. I don't approve of the Church's actions with so-called heretics at the time but I think he could avoid this terrible trial if he wanted. But that is only my opinion and I'm not that familiar with this history, as probably you are. I spoke up because I thought you didn't say everything about Bruno and presented him as a martyr, where in fact he might have been a stubborn enemy of the church.

  • @pawsoned

    Yes, he could have,and that is exactly what Galileo did, in large part because he knew that Bruno had been burned. So if I understand you, you're saying that Bruno should have agreed to something he KNEW was not true because the Church insisted that it was true? I don't think that he wanted to follow a cowardly course and decided to die the horrible death which was dictated by the Church rather than agreeing to the church's false views.

  • @pawsoned - Does reality ever factor into your considerations? Or do you just think in terms of authority? Are you suggesting that when people face authoritative groups they SHOULD lie about their feelings/ideas or be killed?

    Do you also blame rape victims for being raped? Do you blame victims of racial hatred for not hiding their color? Now I'd bet money that you find my questions offensive. BUT I find my questions very called for considering the context of your comment.

  • @CO2Junkie I think that sometimes it's wiser to watch our tongue especially if we're dealing with the powers-that-be and Bruno could pay lip service to the authorities and write his books secretly, instead he chose to defy the church with predictable outcome, is the blame only on the church?

  • @pawsoned - 'Is the blame only on the Church?' Yes. Abso-god-damn-lutely YES.

    Is this the kind of thinking you use with your family? "Well son/daughter/mom/aunt/uncle you MADE me hurt you because you disagreed with me. Have you learned your lesson?"

    You're a caveman. It's time you update your thinking. In our high-pace & highly-technical world - reality matters now. It's no longer just about who's the boss. Your type of thinking is how kings & dictators get made.

  • @pawsoned - 'Is the blame only on the Church?' Yes. Abso-god-damn-lutely YES.

    Is this the kind of thinking you use with your family? "Well son/daughter/mom/aunt/uncle you MADE me hurt you because you disagreed with me. Have you learned your lesson?"

    You're a caveman. It's time you update your thinking. In our high-pace & highly-technical world - reality matters now. It's no longer just about who's the boss. Your type of thinking is how kings & dictators get made.

  • @CO2Junkie Dude, we're talking about the past *facepalm*. It has nothing to do with my supposed submission as you seem to imply in this day and age. Times were different then and Bruno certainly knew what he was doing, didn't he? imo he could have been more careful.

    btw, why did you call me a caveman? Please don't start an argument, Peace!

  • @2bsirius

    Btw maybe you can explain why the Church has still not exonerated Bruno for his 'heresy'? They finally condescended to do so with Galileo. It's as if they seem to feel that Bruno needs THEIR forgiveness, and not the reverse. The irony is fair thick in the Church's attitude, in my opinion.

  • @2Sorry, although I try to present Catholic church's point of view as opposed to prevalent anti-catholic attitude on YT, I'm not sure I can answer why the church didn't apologize (maybe she did but I don't know) for burning Bruno at the stake. I don't think that accusing the renaissance church of their crimes is totally fair since the times were very different but if someone speaks critically of other people, especially when they're cannot respond I try to follow the maxim 'hear the other side'

  • @pawsoned I have been in Rome on four different anniversaries of Bruno's burning and the Church always takes the condescending attitude about its past barbarism in relation to Bruno's burning. They always say that Bruno's heresies were so serious that it made action necessary. They have issued some luck warm apologist rhetoric about Galileo, but Bruno was placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum [forbidden book index] & the Church's churlish behaviour related to Bruno has continued ever since.

  • Comment removed

  • 1:58 "that is exactly why he was burned by the catholic church" - Are you sure? Was it not because he unnecessarily provoked the authority by his views and writings. Did you actually read his writings? Was he only arguing against the Ptolemaic view or was he making other remarks that turned out to be false. Read: catholic.com/library/Galileo_C­ontroversy

  • @pawsoned I did grad work on Bruno, and you are mistaken in your claims. The site you link to is a Catholic apologist site and contains the Church's predictable spin on this. The Vatican library has lost the transcripts of Bruno's inquisition in the Star Chamber and his trial.

    If you do not know that Bruno was familiar with the Copernican heliocentric theory and that Bruno's work went beyond those of Copernicus, you, are the one who needs to look at his work again.

  • Don't you miss living in a culture where reason is trumped by superstition? It is sooo much more interesting, more options...no empirical data or reasoning required to evaluate "good" ideas or recall history for that matter.

    Yikes.

  • Hello, I will make this short...Rick Perry by definition is a "mental midget"...regards...

  • Yes, I thought it was extremely weird when Perry brought up Galileo in DEFENSE of his (Perry's) position. If anything, it should be Perry's opponents who bring up Galileo as an example of how anti-scientific dogma is detrimental to the advancement of society. I actually think that Perry's reference to Galileo was a slip up.

  • You are being VERY kind: "unaware"  LOL that is the height of understatement. I wish you'd make videos with you on cam again. I understand why you choose not to, but it's sometimes disconcerting to just watch a still image while you're talking; I end up typing when I should be listening, I have to watch again 8‹D My fault not yours - I'm just asking a favor. I also think I understand things better when I see people speak. Could that be possible? I share your *cringe* and your hope.

  • awesome video

  • rick perry scares me... he has the support from a very influential political group called "the tea party"... i really fear that he will be elected because obama's numbers are historically low... the issue is obama has failed to turn the economy around... little do people realize that manufacturing jobs have been permanently shipped overseas... it's all dependent on the small business owner doing well and growing in numbers... our bankers are thieves for dark forces...

    Kensho

  • Rick Perry will be the greatest President since... George W. Bush! : D It's not that the guy's a complete idiot, he just wants to look like one in order to get elected.

  • It's downright insulting to the suffering both Bruno and Galileo endured, and plain ironic that Perry misrepresents their fidelity to the truth for the purposes of furthering ignorance towards modern scientific ideas often seen as dangerous.

  • It seems to me that America is going down hill anyway... Perry will just make the hill somewhat steeper...

  • Of course Galileo's trial was not about science. He contradicted what the church stated, so he was punished. For me, the burning of Giordano Bruno has also been an important moment in history.

  • One bit of irony is that sooner or later there will be more propenents of evolution and atheists, so by his reasoning he is going to be wrong. Unless it's only a popularity contest if his side is more popular. Don't they require you to have a preschool diploma to run for President?

  • @StabbyRaccoon

    Yes, great point!

  • When I saw Perry's 'quip' about Galileo, I was nearly stunned...until I remembered his state of origin...

    I found this to be an excellent antidote for Perry's near-toxic stupidity levels:

    watch?v=alWkzljdv3E

  • It seems to me that many people would rather be entertained than to stop and think.

  • @samm761

    Yes, I've noticed.

  • That was a good video. It seems to me thT

  • If you apologize for Rick Perry, I'll apologize for Michele Bachmann.

  • @Barklord

    LOL Deal!

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