(Daniel 10:13) Michael, one of the foremost princes
Have a look into Babylonian & Persian history, they had sub rulers called Satraps & Princes. Satraps were sent to rule a particular territory if there was resistance and problems. Princes were chosen from the respective conquered territory if they had a good relationship with the empire.
@LDS4Life71 Can you give me an example from the OT of a demon and also that they follow a shinning one? The OT understanding of "Malak(im)" is a messenger which applies to messengers of kings just as much as messengers of YHWH.
Can Elohim refer to Judges? In the Septuagint, which is what I use, it uses the term "gods". The Mesoretic text, which is what you are using, leaves out a lot of the verses that the Septuagint has. The Psalm is talking about the Nation of Israel (who are adopted sons of the Most High or simply gods) have treated the poor as well as other nations unfairly, they will be cast out of God's sight. It also promises the Gentiles will be drawn to God.
At Psalm 82:1, 6, elo‧him′ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as 'God' to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16 & 7:1.
Dunklaw, that is interpretation from the past centuries, refuted by the most prominent bible scholars in the world. Dead sea scroll deut 32 shows clearly that el elyon divided the nations of the world according to his sons, of whom one was Jehovah, el elyon is Jehovas father and jehovah is the supreme God of those sons of God to whom world was divided, Paul mentions in 1 cor 8 also that there are gods many wheter in heaven or in earth, I don't think that ther would be any false gods in heaven.
I think it is strange how people, even scholars make the assumption that because the dead sea scrolls are some of the oldest found that they must be the most accurate even though the context of the find mixes them amongst many no biblical and contradictory texts. They are useful but not necessarily accurate.
This text's position in the bible history is after the patriarchs.
Gen. 10
The division after the deluge was according to the sons of Noah totalling 70.
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are,
But elo‧him has been used to when addressing 'false' gods in the bible. Gen. 31:30.
In the ancient Hebrew tongue all elo‧him actually meant was 'mighty one' or 'powers' & did not carry the modern connotations of the word 'god'. So an Angel could be elo‧him.
Did you get this from Margaret Barker's book THE GREAT ANGEL? I heard there is another (more langer, but better) book written by some professor that also agrees with many of Mrs. Barker's conclusions.
No - have not read it. My conclusions come purely from the Hebrew text's and meaning. Once you start to learn Hebrew & read it in it's original language many of the Greek western ideas disappear.
Incorrect. While I don't agree with the LDS interpretation, I can also say most Christians don't understand this either. The "gods" are sons of the Most High (God). Genesis mentions the sons of God coming down to mate with the mortal women. The sons of God are angels (yes, elohim does translate to be angels). So, why are these angels going to die like men? Why are they called godless even though they are sons of God? That is because they are demons.
Of course verse 6 refers to the Most High as 'elyon which translates to very or most important. My version is correct in the understanding that these "gods" or fallen angels ruled other countries if you read Ephesians 6:12. Also, we know by default that Psalms 82 cannot be referring to Judges as you have stated if we read John 10:31-39. Referring angels as "gods" does not interfere with Jewish monotheistic beliefs if we understand Yahweh to be the only true God.
Ah - I see what you are saying and I do not disagree with you with regards to angels ruling - Daniel 10 (but in this instance called prince of Persia & prince of Greece).
I do not believe that John 10 alters my understanding of Psalm 82 as a whole - see 1 Corinthians 8:5 & Exodus 4:16.
I am not sure about any concrete links between angel and demon.
Glad you see my point. I agree with your understanding of 1 Corinthians, but your chronology of history misrepresents Exodus. Prior to King Saul, Judges did rule in place of God over the kingdom (which is why elohim can also mean judges, although you would know this). However, while David probably did not write Psalms 82, Israel was ruled by a king with a prophet as his councilor. This is why I seriously doubt gods mean judges due to the political change.
Another example of similar usage for elohim is Exodus 22:28 'You must not call down evil upon Elohim (a mighty one) nor curse a chieftain among your people'.
unless your a outstanding biblical scholar and near easttern studies master then i'm not sure me or anyone would take your word over david bokovoys studies
1 God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High
@LDS4Life71 "Used as a title for the 'chief of the demons,' or Satan. ". Note - no scriptures sited in OT to back up these statements.
Baal.zebub. Note Baal = lord (as in land owner).
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 What is your definition of "Beelzebub" ? and are things spoken by the Pharisees authoritative?
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 what does "lord of flies" have to do with this since this philistine deity was one of seven - a purely Persian concept.
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Again "devil and his angels" or messengers - no connection to demons.
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Revelation speaks of Satan & his messengers - this has no biblical connection to Demons.
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Do you believe that the book of first Enoch is a genuine?
(Numbers 13:13) Se′thur the son of Michael.
Not a unique title.
(Daniel 10:13) Michael, one of the foremost princes
Have a look into Babylonian & Persian history, they had sub rulers called Satraps & Princes. Satraps were sent to rule a particular territory if there was resistance and problems. Princes were chosen from the respective conquered territory if they had a good relationship with the empire.
dunklaw 7 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Can you give me an example from the OT of a demon and also that they follow a shinning one? The OT understanding of "Malak(im)" is a messenger which applies to messengers of kings just as much as messengers of YHWH.
dunklaw 7 months ago
Can Elohim refer to Judges? In the Septuagint, which is what I use, it uses the term "gods". The Mesoretic text, which is what you are using, leaves out a lot of the verses that the Septuagint has. The Psalm is talking about the Nation of Israel (who are adopted sons of the Most High or simply gods) have treated the poor as well as other nations unfairly, they will be cast out of God's sight. It also promises the Gentiles will be drawn to God.
michael34453 1 year ago
Comment removed
Curiousonic 2 years ago
Comment removed
Curiousonic 2 years ago
At Psalm 82:1, 6, elo‧him′ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as 'God' to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16 & 7:1.
dunklaw 2 years ago
Dunklaw, that is interpretation from the past centuries, refuted by the most prominent bible scholars in the world. Dead sea scroll deut 32 shows clearly that el elyon divided the nations of the world according to his sons, of whom one was Jehovah, el elyon is Jehovas father and jehovah is the supreme God of those sons of God to whom world was divided, Paul mentions in 1 cor 8 also that there are gods many wheter in heaven or in earth, I don't think that ther would be any false gods in heaven.
Jarkko1983 2 years ago
Which scholars (names please)?
I think it is strange how people, even scholars make the assumption that because the dead sea scrolls are some of the oldest found that they must be the most accurate even though the context of the find mixes them amongst many no biblical and contradictory texts. They are useful but not necessarily accurate.
This text's position in the bible history is after the patriarchs.
Gen. 10
The division after the deluge was according to the sons of Noah totalling 70.
dunklaw 2 years ago
Also,
1 Cor 8 in part says:-
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are,
But elo‧him has been used to when addressing 'false' gods in the bible. Gen. 31:30.
In the ancient Hebrew tongue all elo‧him actually meant was 'mighty one' or 'powers' & did not carry the modern connotations of the word 'god'. So an Angel could be elo‧him.
dunklaw 2 years ago
False gods (mighty ones) in heaven.
What is Revelation 12:7-12 talking about?
dunklaw 2 years ago
Did you get this from Margaret Barker's book THE GREAT ANGEL? I heard there is another (more langer, but better) book written by some professor that also agrees with many of Mrs. Barker's conclusions.
AcademicTheologian 2 years ago
No - have not read it. My conclusions come purely from the Hebrew text's and meaning. Once you start to learn Hebrew & read it in it's original language many of the Greek western ideas disappear.
dunklaw 2 years ago
Incorrect. While I don't agree with the LDS interpretation, I can also say most Christians don't understand this either. The "gods" are sons of the Most High (God). Genesis mentions the sons of God coming down to mate with the mortal women. The sons of God are angels (yes, elohim does translate to be angels). So, why are these angels going to die like men? Why are they called godless even though they are sons of God? That is because they are demons.
TheGiftofChrist 2 years ago
Not sure what you are saying?
Genesis 6:2 says 'bên ĕlôhı̂ym' (sons or offspring of powers) not 'bên shadday ĕlôhı̂ym' (sons or offspring of almighty powers).
dunklaw 2 years ago
Of course verse 6 refers to the Most High as 'elyon which translates to very or most important. My version is correct in the understanding that these "gods" or fallen angels ruled other countries if you read Ephesians 6:12. Also, we know by default that Psalms 82 cannot be referring to Judges as you have stated if we read John 10:31-39. Referring angels as "gods" does not interfere with Jewish monotheistic beliefs if we understand Yahweh to be the only true God.
TheGiftofChrist 2 years ago
Ah - I see what you are saying and I do not disagree with you with regards to angels ruling - Daniel 10 (but in this instance called prince of Persia & prince of Greece).
I do not believe that John 10 alters my understanding of Psalm 82 as a whole - see 1 Corinthians 8:5 & Exodus 4:16.
I am not sure about any concrete links between angel and demon.
dunklaw 2 years ago
Glad you see my point. I agree with your understanding of 1 Corinthians, but your chronology of history misrepresents Exodus. Prior to King Saul, Judges did rule in place of God over the kingdom (which is why elohim can also mean judges, although you would know this). However, while David probably did not write Psalms 82, Israel was ruled by a king with a prophet as his councilor. This is why I seriously doubt gods mean judges due to the political change.
TheGiftofChrist 2 years ago
Another example of similar usage for elohim is Exodus 22:28 'You must not call down evil upon Elohim (a mighty one) nor curse a chieftain among your people'.
dunklaw 2 years ago
unless your a outstanding biblical scholar and near easttern studies master then i'm not sure me or anyone would take your word over david bokovoys studies
MrGavygav 2 years ago
1 God astandeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High
omiolo 3 years ago 2