Is part of the video missing? I guess he was turned out to pasture. Where is that ~ Russia? My god, there's no grass even for one horse. What a desolate place!
I wouldn't label this as 'haute ecole' as theres no evidence he's changed when riding, i think you've tacked him up, ridden, put him in the field and made him perform a rear. your right, ANYONE could do this.
What is so great about your dirty, hairy horse out in a field? I didn't see you interact with him at all. My horse is far more impressive, and I don't claim that my mare does the Haute Ecole.
@GhodiGirl Nothing about Nevzorov Haute Ecole states that you have to have an "impresive" horse. Did you ever think that maybe these were the beginning stages of working in the Nevzorov way?
The reason she calls it "Haute Ecole" is that she is following the teachings of Nevzorov, and his method is known as "Nevzorov Haute Ecole." Just so you know.
but the video shows nothing like Nevzorov does, just cause its says she does doesnt mean she knows a thing, its just pictures of a horse she bought, who still need to put on weight and proper conditioning from the looks of it,
Well...we all have to start somewhere. I wasn't sure if you knew about the NHE school. I agree this isn't true Haute Ecole, since there aren't any Haute Ecole moves. However, I am pretty sure she was just referring to the method of training, and not the actual moves of the Haute Ecole. It takes very many years to master those, as I'm sure you already know. Anyways, yeah, I agree with you--it doesn't show much.
To Kolobri2005- You say that not being dominant and opressive to your horse is "like letting a 3 year old do what it wants." So if you had a three year old human child that ran when you did not want it to, or pulled your hair, would you apply pain to their gums, hit it, yell at it, or scare it into submission? I doubt any SANE person would do that to a young human child, so why do it to a horse that has about the same amount of mental reasoning?
I'm not talking about having a horse get scared and bolt--I'm talking about a horse asserting dominance with teeth and hooves. Horses think in terms of a pecking order. If you are not dominant, then they are. That is how they think. Ask any veterinarian or horse person and they'll tell you the same. If I had a 3-year-old who disrespected me, yelled at me, pulled my hair and threw tantrums, you're damn right I'd spank their little ass or at least yell at them and send them to their room.
you dominate the horse by moving his feet properly, thats how a herd leader is made, not by hitting or yelling at him ,this only makes you look like a predator, a stupid human.
I was talking about a 3 year old HUMAN kid. Well, I don't know about you, but I am incapable of making my horse "move his feet properly." I mean what, am I supposed to stand at one end of the pasture and think "oh, move your feet left now, and now right, and we do the hokey pokey and we turn ourselves around..." My point isn't that you have to yell at a horse to dominate it--I know that is not true. However, Nevzorov in NO way says you should be dominant over your horse. That is my point.
Also, have you ever WATCHED a horse being introduced into a new pasture? The horses don't dance around each other--they kick, bite, squeal and beat each other up until one gives up. Again, I don't think that a person should hit a horse and yell at them to establish dominance. Check out Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling--he dominates stallions with no force at all. He's my favorite trainer. I just think it is important to BE dominant, since otherwise, guess who's going to be receiving kicks, bites, etc?
Thank you for posting this. It is lovely to see someone else out there who is following Nevzorov's teachings. It's really hard to get past everyone who says their horse needs a bit, needs to be punished, or needs to obey. It's a wonderful thing when we finally establish a true frienship with our horses, isn't it? Your horse looks spectacular!
this guy is a total douche. he doesn't believe in horseshoes either. my horses fett would crack and become very sore if she didn't have horseshoes. not all of us have an indoor arena with powdery footing, the only way you could get away with no horseshoes.
Yeah! I actually emailed him and asked him this question: my sister's horse has a very bad quarter crack in her hind hoof. We try to remove her shoes and it immediately opens right up. I agree that shoes do have their problems, but they were invented FOR A REASON!! Of course with Nevzorov you're not supposed to DO anything with your horses, so of course the horses can be barefoot. They didn't really have much to say--just restated that shoes cause problems. I think that was a translation issue.
It is never enough just to take shoes off. What is more needed and important is hoofs trimming. But correct one.
Horse's natural hoof is a great invention of evolution. It absorbs shock wave of the legs hitting the ground, They help to HEART to work thanks to their unique construction working like a blood pump, They arrange load correctly. BUT shoes prevent all these functions. ->
Shoes restrict hoof's potential for absorbing shock wave because to do that the hoof must be a little elastic on the sides but shoes STOP that. They make fixed hoof form that is spoiling also: balance, natural way of load distribution on the legs, make serious obstructions for blood circulation->worse heart work with further results.
+ to all you should also add INNER VIBRATION from the nails which sometimes can achieve 800Hz .
You know what? It would be nice if you guys actually answered this question: my sister's horse has a huge crack in her back foot. We've tried to have her barefoot, but her crack opens right back up again and her hoof starts falling apart. What then? I'm terrible for keeping her feet from falling apart? And the blood pump is the frog--which is unrestricted by regular shoes. The soles never touch the ground anyway, and the walls can be damaged if the horse is not shodd--like my sister's horse.
For such cases, yes, shoes are needed to keep hoof from, as you say, falling apart. The situation when some part of the hoof is missing or seriously damaged. Yes.
But AFTER and in almost all other cases shoes do nothing but discomfort and obstructions
Her crack has never healed. It closes when she has shoes on, but there is a weakness in her hoof that has not healed in th 12 years we've owned her.
So don't bash all people who shoe their horses. My other horse is barefoot, although she also came up lame once or twice because we have so many rocks in connecticut. Once we put shoes on her front feet, she was totally fine. There are REASONS we use shoes. Horse feet are fairly fragile, and it's important to protect them.
tell you once again - barefoot can not be considered as useless and damaging only because the person using it can not do that properly.
It is NEVER not enough just to put shoes off. Horses must move, as much as possible. You MUST know all structures of the hoof inside, must know what, how and when to correct them to help hoofs to fulfil their functions in the best way.
I never said barefoot was "useless". My pony is currently barefoot, although my sister's (with the crack) never can be. I just said that when I used to trail ride with my pony a lot, when we had her barefoot she would get lame. Once we put shoes on her, she was fine and not lame. Dispute that proof, why don't you. If she doesn't seem to have any discomfort then yeah, sure, barefoot's fine, but if you're living on a bunch of rocks, her feet need protection.
What a nice solution! Get rid of the problems/hide them to do things as before... The pony didnt get lame without a real cause... Have you thought about why shod horses dont show signs of discomfort?
If you need protection, use hoof boots, which is easy to take on and off and diversify the vearing time...;)
Yes...shod horses don't show signs of discomfort because THEY AREN'T IN PAIN!!! The shoes protect their feet! I wasn't riding her that hard--the ground was just very rocky. All the removable boots I've seen are designed for horses with shoes anyway. Easyboots are a pain to get on and off, and the ones that strap on are very expensive. Again--SHE IS CURRENTLY BAREFOOT!!
Of course I can recognize a horse in pain--they usually get lame if their feet hurt. We TRIED barefoot with Goldie and her foot just opened back up again. My only point with this whole thing is to point out that just because you put shoes on your horse doesn't mean you're a horrible person.
The boots that strap on are still extremely expensive. If you leave easyboots on and they get filled with water they can cause serious hoof damage. Shoes cause some damage but are generally beneficial.
You look like you got off your horse and took pictures. I am all for the understanding natural approach but I just dont see what youre getting at. He looks hungry.
Horses did not evolve as riding animals. So unless you take VERY good care of his joins (RIGHT supplements or RIGHT joint injections) he will still be lame if you ride hime. I've seen Nevzorov's riding videos and his horses are LAME. So no matter if it is 10min, 15min, ir 45min, unless the horse's joints are taken care of properly he WILL be lame. I just saw "Path of the Horse" I love it, but again just too many lame horses, just like in sports -boston (you probably remember me form the forum)
Only collected horse can be ridden in NHE. And in a natural and real collection, controlled by the horse himself. So no traumas are occured and termographies are taken frequently...
Why should injections be needed if the horse has developed its body properly and can collect?
so how do you go about learning from alexander nevzorov? i bought his d.v.d, and his book, which i am still waiting for, but i was wondering how i can find out more. i love his work, and i have alot of rescue horses that i want to work with with this method.
I believe there is a forum on his website you can join. His ways are too extreme and dogmatic for me, though. You can only ride 15 minutes at a time and God forbid you actually want to DO something with your horse, like play polo or go for a long trail ride. If you do you're apparently torturing your horse. I'm pro natural horsemanship, particularly Hempfling, who does a lot of rehabilitation and rescues, by the way, but NHE is just too hostile and dogmatic. Good luck & I hope it works 4 u!
The first thing is to.. wait... wait for horse to distinguish a contact. Thats why its called "doing nothing". Thats when you trully observe and see your horse as it is. Not faster not better behaving not more obidient. Jsut as he is. Many people really enjoy that.
If you really love and adore horses... there should be no problems... Those simple rules may look dogmatic... Its hard to get used to not use your horse for your own joy and fun...
NH is nearly perfect for making horses "safe" un "usable"
Oh look, the same little speech every single Nevzorov person comes up with. I happily spend hours in the barn caring for my horses, brushing them and just spending time with them without doing anything (well I used to when I was a kid). Just because you ride doesn't mean you think of a horse as a machine. Just because you enjoy riding the horse doesn't mean that the horse doesn't enjoy being ridden.
I don't know what you mean about NH. NH is for the benefit of the horses, but allows riding.
Riding stll is an invention of people. And if there is no collection (NATURAL non-bit collection)... horse doesnt benefit from it. He gets hurt... and horses hide this. Thats when autopsies/termographies/necropsies and other scientific methods are used...
would you enjoy carrying someone around with metal in your mouth and numbness in your back? Hours? On a trail? or anywhere else...
I'm not saying all horses like it, but you can't deny that some horses do. It is easy to tell if a horse is enjoying himself/herself or not, particularly in a sport like jumping or polo. A horse that gets very excited when you go to a ring to jump is clearly enjoying themselves. If they hated it, they would balk. And don't you dare tell me trail riding isn't enjoyable for the horses--it's the only way they get to get out and see new things. Yes, my horse is even excited after the 3rd hour.
EXACTLY! The only way to get out of a box... Horses hate being in one place for hours and that overstressed his heart and hoofes too... Horses just get this chance to move (like they ar intended to while grazin: 14-16 hours per day).
The preasure of a rider with "un-collected back" (i mean horse`s back) prevails the blood preassure... its discomfort... and enjoying metal in mouth would rather describe a masochist
My horse is turned out all day. You keep your horse in a stall all day? Shame on you.
I didn't say they like the bit. I said they liked being ridden. Actually READ what I wrote, please, before you respond with the same crappy arguments of "oh it's so damaging." You haven't given me any scientific proof that this happens when a bit is used properly--like all NHE members. Such a weak argument. You even contradict yourself--you say they like getting out, but then they don't because of the bit.
There are hundreds of scientists and vets research works about how the bit is affecting horse's health. Your problem is just to find them.
Pull or yank you on the bit or not it DOES change digestion processes, afects them, makes obstructions to breathing when horse moves! ISn't that so clear???
And "correct" usage of bit is what??? Never touching the reins? Never pull, even slowly and "gently"?? What is the difference? You ANYWAY press and hurt on the tethless edge and gyms with nerves.
You do pull slowly and gently. Yes, it does cause pressure on the gums, and yes, it is better if you are capable of riding without one. But if you're not, it doesn't mean you torture your horse. That's my whole point.
Why don't you give me a few links? I did a lot of research when I was briefly interested in NHE and I did hear some good arguments, and again--I think it's better to ride without a bit. But I don't think you're a bad person if you ride with one. That's the difference.
Horses CAN NOT breath through the mouth!! It's an anatomical fact. Not any "champion" in the world can change that.
When you put a foreign object into horse's mouth and make it stay there(use the bridle to hold it.) it automatically "switches on" digestive processes->the horse's body and systems switch to eating. BUT BREATHING AND EATING CAN NEVER HAPPEN IN THE SAME TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS DISCOMFORT OBSTRUCTIONS TO BOTH PROCESSES WHICH CAN NOT NOT TO DAMAGE TO HEALTH!!
Don't you dare preach to me about horse anatomy. I know that horses can't breath through their mouth. What's your point? I'd like to bet I know a lot more than you about horse anatomy (unless you're a vet, which I highly doubt). The only risk with breathing and eating at the same time is choking. I'd like to bet you breathe while you're eating, and horses do too. You can't breathe and SWALLOW at the same time. That's totally different..
I don't understand why you people are so closed-minded about this. God forbid someone questions your ideals, you just jump on the defensive and give me the same stupid arguments every time. Of course a horse can breathe and eat--it would die if it couldn't. So would everyone. You can only go without breathing for 6 minutes before you die--and even then you'll be seriously damaged. A bit does not interfere with breathing in the least. Actually, bitless bridles DO. So don't give me this crap.
Thats why I dont have a horse by now - I couldnt provide openspace 24/7 and the area to graze constantly...
If you want a scientific proof, you may find an article regarding bit in teh forum and look into Dr Cook`s article. And I can send it to you if its necessary.
The contradiction... now pease think about horses deal with those divided feelings. One part of them is screamin to get out, the other one realizes the consequences of "training".
Trail riding offers the horse an opportunity to see new things, get out, and run. My horse seemsto love going out, although she was always excited to come home as well.
She's not out 24/7, but she gets turnout all day with 5 other horses to run around and play. I have never kept her in a stall all day--I think that's terrible.
Dr. Cook is obviously part of Nevzorov's cult--not to mention he wants to sell his bitless bridle. I've seen his article, and while it's interesting, he's biased.
So you are a vet to say his articles have nothing well-grounded? There are no other oportunities for your horse to see new things, run?
The bitless briddle is just one step... If he didnt offer the briddle, everyone would say: oh he only talks about the harm of bit but how do I ride my horse otherwise?
Couldnt you just take a long walk exploring everything together and grazing? People say you can determine the processes within the horse by knowing what he/she chooses to eat..;)
I didn't say that he doesn't have good points--he does have some interesting ideas. However, he is biased, which should be kept in mind. I have never heard any other horse veterinarian say that a bit is extremely harmful for a horse. That's like 5 to 1 that a bit is not harmful.
Um...I don't eat grass, thanks. Walking a horse like a dog is boring--I've done it--although I'll admit it's necessary for developing a good relationship. It's important in Hempfling's training too. Still boring though.
The article starts with a quote of a harm of bit by a vet...:) Imagine one vet saying the bit does harm... how would other vets react. An issue that is commonly evaded...
I mean you dont have to eat the gras..:D But there are specific drugs like alkoids and so on so you can see if your horse has an inflamation or other disorders...
Personally I enjoy these walks (with another horse) - a great way to reach the knowledge hot to get to compromises between you too...;)
My horse thinks its boring too. Last time I took her out she was practically hauling me down the trail trying to run--I was walking her. She likes to run, and the only way for us to do that together is for me to ride. I can't ride her anymore anyway, but I hope to re-teach her how to drive. I do want to work on our relationship--I'll admit it isn't the best--but if I could still ride her, I would, no question. We've had a lot of great fun together trail riding--both of us.
Yes. I have owned my horse for 12 years and I know her pretty damned well by now. She was not frightened--she likes to go fast. She always has liked to go fast. That's just the way she is.
Nevzorov makes very weak arguments. He only ever talks about people who ride terribly, and never talks about people who do it properly. If you ride with a bit properly, you don't cause the horse harm. If you can ride without a bit, wonderful, but just because you use one doesn't mean it's automatically torture. They're making new bits that are more suited to the horse's mouth. The idea that collection can't be achieved with a bit is ridiculous--if you ask properly, you don't use the bit at all.
If you dont use the bit at all why is it needed? Why these high-class horses have so much tack including bits, chains, capsules? You can make the horse arch the neck but its just the frame... a painfull pain, the parotid gland gets destroyed and so on...
It is needed for some small cueing--that's all. I am not a high-level dressage rider, so I couldn't say, but I've had plenty of times where I've ridden a horse that had a bit in its mouth and never touched the bit once.
Wtf is a capsule? I've never heard of one. Just because you have a bit in the horse's mouth doesn't mean you just haul on the reins to make the horse's head go down--you work them from behind and have them carry themselves.
the smaller cues the BIGGER tack... I see contradiciton in here... :D
Capsule... this is a term used in my language describing a strap that doesnt let the horse open his/her mouth so he/she couldnt avoid the preasure of bit.
If you never touched the bit there is no sense to keep in horses mouth... a foreign body anyway...
I don't know enough about dressage to speak on that. I have never used a double-bridle. However, I have used a regular bridle while riding dressage/jumping and never touched the bit. I say again--it is good if you can ride without one, but that is not always possible, and it doesn't make you a bad person if you ride with one. The bit is used for cueing, not as a torture device to pull the horse's head where you want it to go. It encourages them to bend.
Again--I do believe riding bitless is much better. Hempfling rides his horse, Janosch, without a bit, and does beautifully. He works very much on natural collection (without a bit, through lunging) and at the same time asserts dominance to keep the horse and human safe. Nevzorov never talks about the dominance structure--he just says you have to let your horse do whatever it wants. That's like letting a 3-year-old child do whatever they want. I highly doubt he does that with his own horses.
If you're talking about people who pull the reins to make the horse arch its neck, then you're talking about people who don't know how to ride--again! Nevzorov never talks about anything else. Show me a rider who PROPERLY uses a bit and still causes all those problems and I'll think about listening to you idiots again. Until then, your weak-ass arguments aren't going to convince me. I hope to find a way to ride my horse without a bit, but through Hempfling's training, not Nevzorov's.
All of Hempfling's training is centered on getting the horse to have natural collection--achieved from the ground with no bit. I don't understand exactly how it works, but it's got to do with body language, and carrying yourself in a way that teaches the horse proper collection. Anyways, he's way better than Nevzorov.
NH just shows horse he/she has no rights to speak out or complain (thats when people are told to use the 4th phase or something like that)... We are the ones benefiting from it...
You obviously have no idea what natural horsemanship is--at least when it comes to Hempfling's method. It's about establishing dominance to encourage the personality of the horse. The human MUST BE DOMINANT or else the horse will be--which can have very violent, negative results, whether you ride them or not. People who do NH do it for better communication with their horses so they can still have dominance without force. And, newsflash, NHE IS a type of natural horsemanship, no matter what.
No the haute ecole book or video did not teach him how 2 rear. However, back when I made this video, I used food as a motive. Basicly I bribed him in 2 almost everything I did. I have learned from that now, and we are working on building a TRUE relationship(that is 1 without force, punishment, pain, etc.)I think I made this video 2 soon. THis was just the begening. I will probably make
another "video story" when we have a much better relationship.
Isn't it true that you are not supposed to use food as a motivator in NHE? If so, this isn't true NHE. I know that true NHE people are very strict about following the instructions to a T.
go u I saved a throughbred too his name was cat chief grandson of storm cat he came to me in such a state if a saddle was put on his back it would have nearly broken it! i saved chief and he followed me around for hours but chief died of narcepsy in his sleep the day before his first show as a fit throughbred xx
Is part of the video missing? I guess he was turned out to pasture. Where is that ~ Russia? My god, there's no grass even for one horse. What a desolate place!
Tosca721 7 months ago
I wouldn't label this as 'haute ecole' as theres no evidence he's changed when riding, i think you've tacked him up, ridden, put him in the field and made him perform a rear. your right, ANYONE could do this.
cromwellandlucy 1 year ago
He's very beautiful :) good work and keep working with him more, I really wanna watch a movie of you two, when you're working with him.
CloudStrife2014 1 year ago
What is so great about your dirty, hairy horse out in a field? I didn't see you interact with him at all. My horse is far more impressive, and I don't claim that my mare does the Haute Ecole.
GhodiGirl 1 year ago
@GhodiGirl Nothing about Nevzorov Haute Ecole states that you have to have an "impresive" horse. Did you ever think that maybe these were the beginning stages of working in the Nevzorov way?
JumpingRider13 6 months ago
this video didnt show any of the work youve done with the horse, just him out to pasture, i wouldnt call what youve done haute ecole.
piaffermisterJ 2 years ago 9
The reason she calls it "Haute Ecole" is that she is following the teachings of Nevzorov, and his method is known as "Nevzorov Haute Ecole." Just so you know.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
but the video shows nothing like Nevzorov does, just cause its says she does doesnt mean she knows a thing, its just pictures of a horse she bought, who still need to put on weight and proper conditioning from the looks of it,
piaffermisterJ 2 years ago 3
Well...we all have to start somewhere. I wasn't sure if you knew about the NHE school. I agree this isn't true Haute Ecole, since there aren't any Haute Ecole moves. However, I am pretty sure she was just referring to the method of training, and not the actual moves of the Haute Ecole. It takes very many years to master those, as I'm sure you already know. Anyways, yeah, I agree with you--it doesn't show much.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
well your right, at least she has the right idea, : )
piaffermisterJ 2 years ago
Definitely, she has the right idea :-)
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
To Kolobri2005- You say that not being dominant and opressive to your horse is "like letting a 3 year old do what it wants." So if you had a three year old human child that ran when you did not want it to, or pulled your hair, would you apply pain to their gums, hit it, yell at it, or scare it into submission? I doubt any SANE person would do that to a young human child, so why do it to a horse that has about the same amount of mental reasoning?
annaelizabeth23 2 years ago
I'm not talking about having a horse get scared and bolt--I'm talking about a horse asserting dominance with teeth and hooves. Horses think in terms of a pecking order. If you are not dominant, then they are. That is how they think. Ask any veterinarian or horse person and they'll tell you the same. If I had a 3-year-old who disrespected me, yelled at me, pulled my hair and threw tantrums, you're damn right I'd spank their little ass or at least yell at them and send them to their room.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
you dominate the horse by moving his feet properly, thats how a herd leader is made, not by hitting or yelling at him ,this only makes you look like a predator, a stupid human.
piaffermisterJ 2 years ago
I was talking about a 3 year old HUMAN kid. Well, I don't know about you, but I am incapable of making my horse "move his feet properly." I mean what, am I supposed to stand at one end of the pasture and think "oh, move your feet left now, and now right, and we do the hokey pokey and we turn ourselves around..." My point isn't that you have to yell at a horse to dominate it--I know that is not true. However, Nevzorov in NO way says you should be dominant over your horse. That is my point.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Also, have you ever WATCHED a horse being introduced into a new pasture? The horses don't dance around each other--they kick, bite, squeal and beat each other up until one gives up. Again, I don't think that a person should hit a horse and yell at them to establish dominance. Check out Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling--he dominates stallions with no force at all. He's my favorite trainer. I just think it is important to BE dominant, since otherwise, guess who's going to be receiving kicks, bites, etc?
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Thank you for posting this. It is lovely to see someone else out there who is following Nevzorov's teachings. It's really hard to get past everyone who says their horse needs a bit, needs to be punished, or needs to obey. It's a wonderful thing when we finally establish a true frienship with our horses, isn't it? Your horse looks spectacular!
darklegacy416 2 years ago
this guy is a total douche. he doesn't believe in horseshoes either. my horses fett would crack and become very sore if she didn't have horseshoes. not all of us have an indoor arena with powdery footing, the only way you could get away with no horseshoes.
missy3092 2 years ago
Yeah! I actually emailed him and asked him this question: my sister's horse has a very bad quarter crack in her hind hoof. We try to remove her shoes and it immediately opens right up. I agree that shoes do have their problems, but they were invented FOR A REASON!! Of course with Nevzorov you're not supposed to DO anything with your horses, so of course the horses can be barefoot. They didn't really have much to say--just restated that shoes cause problems. I think that was a translation issue.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
It is never enough just to take shoes off. What is more needed and important is hoofs trimming. But correct one.
Horse's natural hoof is a great invention of evolution. It absorbs shock wave of the legs hitting the ground, They help to HEART to work thanks to their unique construction working like a blood pump, They arrange load correctly. BUT shoes prevent all these functions. ->
fleur4198 2 years ago
Shoes restrict hoof's potential for absorbing shock wave because to do that the hoof must be a little elastic on the sides but shoes STOP that. They make fixed hoof form that is spoiling also: balance, natural way of load distribution on the legs, make serious obstructions for blood circulation->worse heart work with further results.
+ to all you should also add INNER VIBRATION from the nails which sometimes can achieve 800Hz .
These are facts, you make a conclusion....
fleur4198 2 years ago
You know what? It would be nice if you guys actually answered this question: my sister's horse has a huge crack in her back foot. We've tried to have her barefoot, but her crack opens right back up again and her hoof starts falling apart. What then? I'm terrible for keeping her feet from falling apart? And the blood pump is the frog--which is unrestricted by regular shoes. The soles never touch the ground anyway, and the walls can be damaged if the horse is not shodd--like my sister's horse.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
For such cases, yes, shoes are needed to keep hoof from, as you say, falling apart. The situation when some part of the hoof is missing or seriously damaged. Yes.
But AFTER and in almost all other cases shoes do nothing but discomfort and obstructions
fleur4198 2 years ago
Her crack has never healed. It closes when she has shoes on, but there is a weakness in her hoof that has not healed in th 12 years we've owned her.
So don't bash all people who shoe their horses. My other horse is barefoot, although she also came up lame once or twice because we have so many rocks in connecticut. Once we put shoes on her front feet, she was totally fine. There are REASONS we use shoes. Horse feet are fairly fragile, and it's important to protect them.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
tell you once again - barefoot can not be considered as useless and damaging only because the person using it can not do that properly.
It is NEVER not enough just to put shoes off. Horses must move, as much as possible. You MUST know all structures of the hoof inside, must know what, how and when to correct them to help hoofs to fulfil their functions in the best way.
fleur4198 2 years ago
I never said barefoot was "useless". My pony is currently barefoot, although my sister's (with the crack) never can be. I just said that when I used to trail ride with my pony a lot, when we had her barefoot she would get lame. Once we put shoes on her, she was fine and not lame. Dispute that proof, why don't you. If she doesn't seem to have any discomfort then yeah, sure, barefoot's fine, but if you're living on a bunch of rocks, her feet need protection.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
What a nice solution! Get rid of the problems/hide them to do things as before... The pony didnt get lame without a real cause... Have you thought about why shod horses dont show signs of discomfort?
If you need protection, use hoof boots, which is easy to take on and off and diversify the vearing time...;)
Sarma1188 2 years ago
Yes...shod horses don't show signs of discomfort because THEY AREN'T IN PAIN!!! The shoes protect their feet! I wasn't riding her that hard--the ground was just very rocky. All the removable boots I've seen are designed for horses with shoes anyway. Easyboots are a pain to get on and off, and the ones that strap on are very expensive. Again--SHE IS CURRENTLY BAREFOOT!!
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
?
Can you recognise pain? What signs do you see in the horse?
re: boots - You are out of date. I suggest you do some reading.
vlacqtinta 2 years ago
Of course I can recognize a horse in pain--they usually get lame if their feet hurt. We TRIED barefoot with Goldie and her foot just opened back up again. My only point with this whole thing is to point out that just because you put shoes on your horse doesn't mean you're a horrible person.
The boots that strap on are still extremely expensive. If you leave easyboots on and they get filled with water they can cause serious hoof damage. Shoes cause some damage but are generally beneficial.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
You look like you got off your horse and took pictures. I am all for the understanding natural approach but I just dont see what youre getting at. He looks hungry.
2BeatTempis 2 years ago 10
Horses did not evolve as riding animals. So unless you take VERY good care of his joins (RIGHT supplements or RIGHT joint injections) he will still be lame if you ride hime. I've seen Nevzorov's riding videos and his horses are LAME. So no matter if it is 10min, 15min, ir 45min, unless the horse's joints are taken care of properly he WILL be lame. I just saw "Path of the Horse" I love it, but again just too many lame horses, just like in sports -boston (you probably remember me form the forum)
ironfreehorse 3 years ago
Horse health is the priority in NHE.
Only collected horse can be ridden in NHE. And in a natural and real collection, controlled by the horse himself. So no traumas are occured and termographies are taken frequently...
Why should injections be needed if the horse has developed its body properly and can collect?
Supplements should be balanced, I agree.
Sarma1188 2 years ago
so how do you go about learning from alexander nevzorov? i bought his d.v.d, and his book, which i am still waiting for, but i was wondering how i can find out more. i love his work, and i have alot of rescue horses that i want to work with with this method.
jessieplum 3 years ago
I believe there is a forum on his website you can join. His ways are too extreme and dogmatic for me, though. You can only ride 15 minutes at a time and God forbid you actually want to DO something with your horse, like play polo or go for a long trail ride. If you do you're apparently torturing your horse. I'm pro natural horsemanship, particularly Hempfling, who does a lot of rehabilitation and rescues, by the way, but NHE is just too hostile and dogmatic. Good luck & I hope it works 4 u!
Kolibri2005 3 years ago 3
The first thing is to.. wait... wait for horse to distinguish a contact. Thats why its called "doing nothing". Thats when you trully observe and see your horse as it is. Not faster not better behaving not more obidient. Jsut as he is. Many people really enjoy that.
Sarma1188 2 years ago
If you really love and adore horses... there should be no problems... Those simple rules may look dogmatic... Its hard to get used to not use your horse for your own joy and fun...
NH is nearly perfect for making horses "safe" un "usable"
Sarma1188 2 years ago
Oh look, the same little speech every single Nevzorov person comes up with. I happily spend hours in the barn caring for my horses, brushing them and just spending time with them without doing anything (well I used to when I was a kid). Just because you ride doesn't mean you think of a horse as a machine. Just because you enjoy riding the horse doesn't mean that the horse doesn't enjoy being ridden.
I don't know what you mean about NH. NH is for the benefit of the horses, but allows riding.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Riding stll is an invention of people. And if there is no collection (NATURAL non-bit collection)... horse doesnt benefit from it. He gets hurt... and horses hide this. Thats when autopsies/termographies/necropsies and other scientific methods are used...
would you enjoy carrying someone around with metal in your mouth and numbness in your back? Hours? On a trail? or anywhere else...
Sarma1188 2 years ago
I'm not saying all horses like it, but you can't deny that some horses do. It is easy to tell if a horse is enjoying himself/herself or not, particularly in a sport like jumping or polo. A horse that gets very excited when you go to a ring to jump is clearly enjoying themselves. If they hated it, they would balk. And don't you dare tell me trail riding isn't enjoyable for the horses--it's the only way they get to get out and see new things. Yes, my horse is even excited after the 3rd hour.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
EXACTLY! The only way to get out of a box... Horses hate being in one place for hours and that overstressed his heart and hoofes too... Horses just get this chance to move (like they ar intended to while grazin: 14-16 hours per day).
The preasure of a rider with "un-collected back" (i mean horse`s back) prevails the blood preassure... its discomfort... and enjoying metal in mouth would rather describe a masochist
Sarma1188 2 years ago
My horse is turned out all day. You keep your horse in a stall all day? Shame on you.
I didn't say they like the bit. I said they liked being ridden. Actually READ what I wrote, please, before you respond with the same crappy arguments of "oh it's so damaging." You haven't given me any scientific proof that this happens when a bit is used properly--like all NHE members. Such a weak argument. You even contradict yourself--you say they like getting out, but then they don't because of the bit.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
There are hundreds of scientists and vets research works about how the bit is affecting horse's health. Your problem is just to find them.
Pull or yank you on the bit or not it DOES change digestion processes, afects them, makes obstructions to breathing when horse moves! ISn't that so clear???
And "correct" usage of bit is what??? Never touching the reins? Never pull, even slowly and "gently"?? What is the difference? You ANYWAY press and hurt on the tethless edge and gyms with nerves.
fleur4198 2 years ago
You do pull slowly and gently. Yes, it does cause pressure on the gums, and yes, it is better if you are capable of riding without one. But if you're not, it doesn't mean you torture your horse. That's my whole point.
Why don't you give me a few links? I did a lot of research when I was briefly interested in NHE and I did hear some good arguments, and again--I think it's better to ride without a bit. But I don't think you're a bad person if you ride with one. That's the difference.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Horses CAN NOT breath through the mouth!! It's an anatomical fact. Not any "champion" in the world can change that.
When you put a foreign object into horse's mouth and make it stay there(use the bridle to hold it.) it automatically "switches on" digestive processes->the horse's body and systems switch to eating. BUT BREATHING AND EATING CAN NEVER HAPPEN IN THE SAME TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS DISCOMFORT OBSTRUCTIONS TO BOTH PROCESSES WHICH CAN NOT NOT TO DAMAGE TO HEALTH!!
It is still not clear??
fleur4198 2 years ago
Don't you dare preach to me about horse anatomy. I know that horses can't breath through their mouth. What's your point? I'd like to bet I know a lot more than you about horse anatomy (unless you're a vet, which I highly doubt). The only risk with breathing and eating at the same time is choking. I'd like to bet you breathe while you're eating, and horses do too. You can't breathe and SWALLOW at the same time. That's totally different..
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
I don't understand why you people are so closed-minded about this. God forbid someone questions your ideals, you just jump on the defensive and give me the same stupid arguments every time. Of course a horse can breathe and eat--it would die if it couldn't. So would everyone. You can only go without breathing for 6 minutes before you die--and even then you'll be seriously damaged. A bit does not interfere with breathing in the least. Actually, bitless bridles DO. So don't give me this crap.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Thats why I dont have a horse by now - I couldnt provide openspace 24/7 and the area to graze constantly...
If you want a scientific proof, you may find an article regarding bit in teh forum and look into Dr Cook`s article. And I can send it to you if its necessary.
The contradiction... now pease think about horses deal with those divided feelings. One part of them is screamin to get out, the other one realizes the consequences of "training".
Its nice your horse is out daily.
Sarma1188 2 years ago
Trail riding offers the horse an opportunity to see new things, get out, and run. My horse seemsto love going out, although she was always excited to come home as well.
She's not out 24/7, but she gets turnout all day with 5 other horses to run around and play. I have never kept her in a stall all day--I think that's terrible.
Dr. Cook is obviously part of Nevzorov's cult--not to mention he wants to sell his bitless bridle. I've seen his article, and while it's interesting, he's biased.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
So you are a vet to say his articles have nothing well-grounded? There are no other oportunities for your horse to see new things, run?
The bitless briddle is just one step... If he didnt offer the briddle, everyone would say: oh he only talks about the harm of bit but how do I ride my horse otherwise?
Couldnt you just take a long walk exploring everything together and grazing? People say you can determine the processes within the horse by knowing what he/she chooses to eat..;)
Sarma1188 2 years ago
I didn't say that he doesn't have good points--he does have some interesting ideas. However, he is biased, which should be kept in mind. I have never heard any other horse veterinarian say that a bit is extremely harmful for a horse. That's like 5 to 1 that a bit is not harmful.
Um...I don't eat grass, thanks. Walking a horse like a dog is boring--I've done it--although I'll admit it's necessary for developing a good relationship. It's important in Hempfling's training too. Still boring though.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
The article starts with a quote of a harm of bit by a vet...:) Imagine one vet saying the bit does harm... how would other vets react. An issue that is commonly evaded...
I mean you dont have to eat the gras..:D But there are specific drugs like alkoids and so on so you can see if your horse has an inflamation or other disorders...
Personally I enjoy these walks (with another horse) - a great way to reach the knowledge hot to get to compromises between you too...;)
Sarma1188 2 years ago
My horse thinks its boring too. Last time I took her out she was practically hauling me down the trail trying to run--I was walking her. She likes to run, and the only way for us to do that together is for me to ride. I can't ride her anymore anyway, but I hope to re-teach her how to drive. I do want to work on our relationship--I'll admit it isn't the best--but if I could still ride her, I would, no question. We've had a lot of great fun together trail riding--both of us.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Maybe you could use an open paddock to run/walk together? Then when she hes got rid of the energy go out? Can she collect while riding her?
Sarma1188 2 years ago
Mmmmmmm
How do you know - what signs did you read in your horse?
Are you sure your horse was not away from running from you?
vlacqtinta 2 years ago
Yes. I have owned my horse for 12 years and I know her pretty damned well by now. She was not frightened--she likes to go fast. She always has liked to go fast. That's just the way she is.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Nevzorov makes very weak arguments. He only ever talks about people who ride terribly, and never talks about people who do it properly. If you ride with a bit properly, you don't cause the horse harm. If you can ride without a bit, wonderful, but just because you use one doesn't mean it's automatically torture. They're making new bits that are more suited to the horse's mouth. The idea that collection can't be achieved with a bit is ridiculous--if you ask properly, you don't use the bit at all.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
If you dont use the bit at all why is it needed? Why these high-class horses have so much tack including bits, chains, capsules? You can make the horse arch the neck but its just the frame... a painfull pain, the parotid gland gets destroyed and so on...
Sarma1188 2 years ago
"painfull pain" :/ Sorry its getting late ;)
Sarma1188 2 years ago
It is needed for some small cueing--that's all. I am not a high-level dressage rider, so I couldn't say, but I've had plenty of times where I've ridden a horse that had a bit in its mouth and never touched the bit once.
Wtf is a capsule? I've never heard of one. Just because you have a bit in the horse's mouth doesn't mean you just haul on the reins to make the horse's head go down--you work them from behind and have them carry themselves.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
the smaller cues the BIGGER tack... I see contradiciton in here... :D
Capsule... this is a term used in my language describing a strap that doesnt let the horse open his/her mouth so he/she couldnt avoid the preasure of bit.
If you never touched the bit there is no sense to keep in horses mouth... a foreign body anyway...
Sarma1188 2 years ago
I don't know enough about dressage to speak on that. I have never used a double-bridle. However, I have used a regular bridle while riding dressage/jumping and never touched the bit. I say again--it is good if you can ride without one, but that is not always possible, and it doesn't make you a bad person if you ride with one. The bit is used for cueing, not as a torture device to pull the horse's head where you want it to go. It encourages them to bend.
Capsule = flash/dropped noseband.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Again--I do believe riding bitless is much better. Hempfling rides his horse, Janosch, without a bit, and does beautifully. He works very much on natural collection (without a bit, through lunging) and at the same time asserts dominance to keep the horse and human safe. Nevzorov never talks about the dominance structure--he just says you have to let your horse do whatever it wants. That's like letting a 3-year-old child do whatever they want. I highly doubt he does that with his own horses.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
If you're talking about people who pull the reins to make the horse arch its neck, then you're talking about people who don't know how to ride--again! Nevzorov never talks about anything else. Show me a rider who PROPERLY uses a bit and still causes all those problems and I'll think about listening to you idiots again. Until then, your weak-ass arguments aren't going to convince me. I hope to find a way to ride my horse without a bit, but through Hempfling's training, not Nevzorov's.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
All of Hempfling's training is centered on getting the horse to have natural collection--achieved from the ground with no bit. I don't understand exactly how it works, but it's got to do with body language, and carrying yourself in a way that teaches the horse proper collection. Anyways, he's way better than Nevzorov.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
NH just shows horse he/she has no rights to speak out or complain (thats when people are told to use the 4th phase or something like that)... We are the ones benefiting from it...
Sarma1188 2 years ago
You obviously have no idea what natural horsemanship is--at least when it comes to Hempfling's method. It's about establishing dominance to encourage the personality of the horse. The human MUST BE DOMINANT or else the horse will be--which can have very violent, negative results, whether you ride them or not. People who do NH do it for better communication with their horses so they can still have dominance without force. And, newsflash, NHE IS a type of natural horsemanship, no matter what.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
Hi 19laurel4,
No the haute ecole book or video did not teach him how 2 rear. However, back when I made this video, I used food as a motive. Basicly I bribed him in 2 almost everything I did. I have learned from that now, and we are working on building a TRUE relationship(that is 1 without force, punishment, pain, etc.)I think I made this video 2 soon. THis was just the begening. I will probably make
another "video story" when we have a much better relationship.
Holly>
RunningFree08 3 years ago
Isn't it true that you are not supposed to use food as a motivator in NHE? If so, this isn't true NHE. I know that true NHE people are very strict about following the instructions to a T.
Kolibri2005 2 years ago
did the haute ecole booke or video or something teach you what your horse did at :52
19laurel94 3 years ago
go u I saved a throughbred too his name was cat chief grandson of storm cat he came to me in such a state if a saddle was put on his back it would have nearly broken it! i saved chief and he followed me around for hours but chief died of narcepsy in his sleep the day before his first show as a fit throughbred xx
rhi143 3 years ago