concerning your G. Washington quote on the failure of Atheism: Here is experimental validation of Washington's ideal some 100 yrs later: "Atheism and Liberal, Missouri by apologetics press.
@HENRYPATRICK1736 Here is a short list of the 200+ founding fathers: George Washington John Adams Thomas Jefferson James Madison Patrick Henry Samuel Adams Alexander Hamilton John Jay James Wilson Charles Carroll Robert Livingston Benjamin Rush John Hancock Fisher Ames Benjamin Franklin George Mason Jedidiah Morse Abraham Baldwin Roger Sherman John WItherspoon Noah Webster And many others... A Christian nation is one where its institutions & culture have been shaped & molded by Christianity.
u challenged me to show where the Supreme court, pre 1947, supported Separation of Church/State. I did and included, in random order, quotes from Founding Fathers, Pesidents and other governent officials from the time of the Founding up to the middle of the 20th century. Which,btw,is when radicals like you began a very ugly and lie-filled re-writing of history and attack on the very foundation of this country. Such as putting "God" onto currency + the Pledge of Alliegance.
@bRizzle2009100 b/c in the middle of the 20th century, religous radicals, such as yourself, began not only inserting more Christian doctrine into schools (this is also the time that they forced the words "under God" into the Pledge) so the Supreme Court had to step in and sided with American tradition of Church/State seperation. Trying to find a bone to s=chew on? How laughable.
@bRizzle2009100 Of further interest; God was not on the original currency, if the Founders thought we were strictly Christian, it would have. Wasn't in the original Pledge of Allegiance (that was added mid-20th century by radicals trying to re-write history,like u).
@bRizzle2009100 t was the Supreme Court that removed religion from the schools (which follows Madison's example,btw), now u try to claim they support it. They simply corrected a previous problem. If u don't agree then,following that logic u must agree that slavery, segregation and various other crimes once supported by law. The quote from Madison stands: u can try to re-arrange the words,u can't change the meaning. Ur re-writing of history doesn't make it real.
@bRizzle2009100 WOW! talk about distortion! The Supreme Court upheld it ONLY inasmuch as it pertained to PRIVATE schools and/or COMPARITIVE religious studies. The "secularization" started w/ the likes of Madison (remember the quote?),Jefferson,Franklin,etc. It is the REVISISIONIST HISTORY that started in the 20th century that tried to change that. There are THOUSANDS of court cases stating that religion and state ARE to be kept separate.
@seekertrth 1. Jefferson was referring to the Book of Revelations in the Bible not actual Divine Revelations from God. Check the actual sources and letters u are quoting. 2. Read Franklin's appeal for prayer at the Convention and his letter to Ezra Stiles right before he died. He did believe in Revelation. 3. Check US Supreme Court rulings: 1844 Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1892 Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 1890 Davis v. Beason, Murphy v. Ramsey 1885.
@bRizzle2009100@bRizzle2009100 Are you insane or just mentally challenged? Schools are public=government=no mixing. The schools were far more regional (read locally run) and they taught MORALITY as it pertained to religion,yes,specifically and geared towards indoctrination into Christendom,no. The commandments WERE removed from courts then,or were simply not displayed in the 1st place,though there were a few exceptions. To say differently is simply revionisionst history.
@seekertrth 2. I read the bill u referenced and the journals of Congress pertaining to it. Madison vetoed the bill because it would have incorporated a church that was basically ran by the federal government. In essence it would have created a federally established church which is a violation of the Constitution. Again, this goes back to the principle that "separation of church and state" means no established state religion or church. Not a display of religious expressions in the public arena.
Lets see if bRizzle will post my video on whether or not America is a "Christian" nation. I doubt it because whenever I attempt to post a video on ANY Christian site, they're scared to post it. Hmmm, I wonder why?
@sgapplebee I have no video responses in my inbox. Can you please send it again? I would be more than happy to post it. I don't know what happened there. I would like to see your video and respond to it.
Don't kid yourself. Jefferson was clear about his faith. Only you, David Barton and James Kennedy want to promote revised history instead of actual facts. David Barton has actually backtracked most of the quotes you use in this video and admitted that some were fiction and the rest were of questionable origin. I find that people like Barton, James Kennedy and possibly you are not interested in truth, just your version of it.
@bRizzle2009100 These quotes are false, Washington and Jefferson were deists not Christians. Many of the founders didn't believe in the Christian faith or any religion for that matter. Other notable deists were Ben Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Monroe and James Madison. Not to mention Thomas Paine who was author of many great works of literature, most notably the anti-Christian "Age of Reason."
This is simply more Christo-Fascist historical revisionism.
@Patwmi 1. Jefferson was not a deist, but he was not a Christian either. 2. Washington was a devout Christian. 3. Ben Franklin was a deist but not a traditional one that rejected Divine Providence. 4. Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine were deists yes. 5. James Madison and Monroe were both Christians.
There are over 250 founding fathers, you named 7 of them and said "Many of the founders didn't believe in the Christian faith or any religion for that matter." Thats not evidence my friend.
@bRizzle2009100 1) Jefferson stated he wasa Deist. 2) Washington was a Christian but certainly not a "devout" one, check history. 3) Deists did not reject the notion of Divinity but yes, Franklin DID reject Divine Intervention. re 5, Madison also stated that everyone "benefitted greatly from the total separation of church and state. So far, u have been wrong on every single point but that Paine wasa deist. Surprising, considering u clearly don't even know what the word means.
@seekertrth 1. "Jefferson stated he wasa Deist." Where did he state he was a deist? A Deist in the founder's days was different than now. The definition of deism in Webster's 1828 dictionary, "... the belief or system of religious opinions of those who acknowledge the existence of one God, but deny revelation". Franklin called himself a deist but believed in revelation. Paine was a deist in the truest sense. Jefferson was not a deist as he never called himself one and believed in revelation.
@bRizzle2009100 Jefferson called Revelations, "the Ravings of a maniac." Franklin, to my knowledge, denied everything but being a Diest and I don't know where u get the idea he accepted Revelation. Regarding ur message that Madison's vetoes don't count as religion in the public arena is SSSOOO incredibly asinine it hardly bears repeating except to point that out.
The whole point of this video seems to be to claim we are a founded as Christian nation, we were founded as a secular nation!
@bRizzle2009100 See, it's the same thing again, u change ur story when it's obvious ur wrong; this video purports that we are founded as a Christian nation, now it's "religion in the public arena" Guess what, ur still wrong. Perhaps u should focus ur mind on the fact that people who taught u were more concerned w/ brainwashing (indoctrination) than the truth for their own political and personal gain. God being used as a tool, EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned against!
I think you need to read more of the founding fathers' actual personal writings than to keep regurgitating David Barton's twisted, out of context posts. Nothing like twisting history as you have done in this video.
You have cherry picked a handful of quotes completely out of context, ignoring pages and pages of writings of the founding fathers. The most irresponsible example is your smug claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. When you build a house on sand, it is always unstable and never right. Your video is built upon sand and is so full of historical flaws and holes it is useless as a study of truth. This video is worthless as a legitimate study of American history.
@pianodon Well Jefferson's faith is complicated. I have two videos devoted to his religious beliefs. If you watch those two videos then that Jefferson quote will bring it more into context.
Religion was seen as an important aspect of American liberty by the founders in general. Specifically the Christian religion. Many of the founders wanted the Bible taught in schools. They had church in the U.S. Capitol Building on Sundays. Many things the ACLU and AU for Church & State would despise.
@FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 The founders' view on government was that it could not prosper without religion and morality. John Adams said, "It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." George Washington, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."
Yep they definitely meant for us to be secular alright.
@MrSupra7 There were no facts in that video. Miller claims that Washington was an "unenthusiastic church goer" yet he doesn't point out that Washington was deeply involved in his church, the Anglican Church. He was a vestryman and church warden for a number of years.
He also said "when this country declared our independence in 1776, it also enshrined into law that the church & the state were to be completely separate." The Declaration makes no reference to the separation of church and state.
@bRizzle2009100 but he says he would leave before services were over and often didn't attend, i think that was more an honor bestowed on him. who cares the first amendment basically says that. and the only people who really think different are evangelical Christians
@MrSupra7 Well with respect to Mr. Miller, he is incorrect. Washington was a very religious person. He did attend church. In the revolutionary war, he had chaplains to perform Sunday services. When he didn't have a chaplain, he performed it himself. Look at the letter by his daughter Nelly-Custis-Lewis. She said to question Washington's christianity would be like questioning his patriotism for his country.
The first amendment says the federal govt cant establish a national religion.
@bRizzle2009100 nor can they establish a low respecting religion. you know like putting under god in the pledge.He deplored the sectarian strife in Ireland, and wished the debate over Patrick Henry's General Assessment bill would "die an easy death."He was complimentary to all groups and attended Quaker, German Reformed, and Roman Catholic services Clear evidence of his personal theology is lacking, even on his deathbed when he died a "death of civility" without expressions of Christian hope.
@bRizzle2009100 In the Revolutionary War, Washington supported troops selecting their own chaplains (such as the Universalist John Murray) while trying to avoid the development of factions within the army. Religion offered him moral leverage to instill discipline, reduce theft, deter desertion, and minimize other rambunctious behaviors that upset local residents. but it may have been motivated more by a desire for improving life on earth rather than dealing with life after death.
@MrSupra7 I would urge u to read "George Washington's Sacred Fire". It is a very well organized and cited book. It's rather long, about 750 pages of reading material. Most of the footnotes pre-date 1812 so you know its a trusted book. It's about George Washington's religion. It has a whole chapter's devoted to Washington's work as a vestryman, his communion practices, his childhood education, basically anything u wanna know. I recommend it to u.
@bRizzle2009100 For absence from church, according to the Virginia law of that day, "for the first offense," might have received "stoppage of allowance; for the second, whipping; for the third, the galleys for six months." doesnt mean everyone was super religious.That Washington was a vestryman has no special significance religiously. In Virginia, this office was also political. The vestry managed the civil affairs of the parish, among others, the assessment of taxes.
@bRizzle2009100 cont. Being the largest property holder in the parish, Washington could hardly afford not to be a vestryman.Thomas Jefferson, a pronounced unbeliever, was also a vestryman, and for the same reasons. General A.W. Greeley once said, in 'The Ladies Home Journal,' that in that day "it required no more religion to be a vestryman than it did to sail a ship." # times he went to church 1771-1788 15,10,9,12,5,18,1,1,3,1 revolution heavy fighting,84 in the west wasnt able to attend,1,1,3
@bRizzle2009100 and after the presidency when he didn't have to keep appearances up he went as little as possible. he went only 2 time in the year of his death. that says a lot. i think he had a different kind of faith one were you dont need to go to church but still believe in god, ad can question certain aspects of the bible and teachings
@MrSupra7 The book I cited addresses all of those points. When Washington & his family didn't go to church, they had it at their house. Washington would read scriptures from the Bible to his family and he would preach to them. On some days, this lasted for hours. Washington also used Biblical language to refer to God. He used words such as the "God of Armies", "Lord of Hosts", "Creator", "Jehovah" and some 20 other Biblical definitions for God. He even referred to the Bible as the "Word of God"
@bRizzle2009100 no he wouldn't i read all that straight from his diaries, he would write letters and talk and visit with people on Sunday not hold church. but he uses jesus christ only once in 20000 docs.im not a full Christian but i still say god, what your point, im not saying he was faithless i just don't think he believed in a Christian god or Islamic god, but just GOD kinda like a deist. so every one say the bible is the word of god, i say that but i find a lot of contradictions and hateful
@MrSupra7 ... there are many other instances of Washington using Biblical language. He refers to the "Throne of Grace" in many of his letters. He speaks of Noah as if he believed he was a real person. In fact, Micah 4:4 was his most cited Bible verse throughout his writings, some 20+ times he cited it. Now if u didn't know the Bible, u would read right over it and not realize it was a Bible verse he was referring to. There are hundreds of Biblical phrases he uses throughout his writings.
@bRizzle2009100 any religion except atheism would be ok with mica 4:4 even a deist, or someone on the verge. who cares about mica verse anyways any leader could say that and it would sound good. and not hundred only a few. and being a Christian he doesnt mention Jesus but once, any Christian i know always talks about Jesus and he is the only salvation. Washington may have been closer to catholic not "Christian" in that he didnt believe Jesus was the way to heaven GOD was.
@MrSupra7 Listen, there is so much evidence out there that Washington was a christian. The book "George Washington's Sacred Fire" explains it all. Washington uses evangelical christian language all the time in his letters. The problem is we have historians who don't know the Bible at all and when the see it they don't recognize it. This man had a great knowledge of the Bible. He uses some 20 Biblical names for God. He cites Bible verses left and right. He even refers to the Bible as God'd Word.
@bRizzle2009100 and i just told you so what i can do that too and im not a "Christian" so can many atheist i know, you know why? because they like to know what they are talking about before they quit religion. look the author is just like barton trying to paint all of our founding fathers as evangelical Christians. but fact of the matter they have shown to be too smart for organized religion, thats why they tried to kepp it out of the govt. and allow anyone to belive what they wanted
@bRizzle2009100 i mean even the founders knew that religion was responsible for more deaths than all the famines,plagues,and wars of all history combined.
@MrSupra7 If u look at 19th century historians, we get a completely opposite picture of Washington than one that u and others paint. The earliest biographies written on Washington say with out a doubt that Washington was a christian. That was the consensus until the mid 20th century. Now all of the "historians" quote the books from the 1930's-present that all say he was a deist. Yet, there is no mention of the earlier work on Washington. It's called revisionism.
@bRizzle2009100 no i believe it is called facts and Washington own words. just like in his diary, look was it wasnt law he had no desire to go to church. and anything i have looked up has predated that, also scared fire was written post 1930s.It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible just like Washington never said thatr but so many "historians" do. fact is the historians saying he not Christian aren't fabricating quotes to support their case. that says a lot
@MrSupra7 I'll give u an example. In "The Life of George Washington" by Jared Sparks, who was a famous 19th century historian, says on page 525 of his book (and many other pages) that without a doubt, Washington believed in the revelation of Christianity. Now this might come as a surprise to u, but in that time period, that was the common consensus. Until the mid 20th century, when all these historians started coming out with different opinions.
@bRizzle2009100 lol why do you keep using fake historians that are evangelical Christians? Washington mica 4:4 was nothing more than a figure of speech, that he wanted to go home. have you ever read the way Washington used the bible verses? defiantly more allusion, than holy. and most of the times Washington used scripture its was him being funny even the write or sacred fire admits it. sparks admitted to wanting to make Washington look more Christian.he even tried t peg franklin as Christian.
@MrSupra7 So the historians u use I assume are not fake historians. But the ones I refer to are. Why is that? Historians all throughout the 19th and even the early 20th centuries all had the consensus that Washington was a christian. That was the way it was taught in schools for 150 years. Now we have a few historians in the last 50 years or so who say something different. Now we just ignore the previous consensus of the last 150 years? Sounds like historical revisionism to me.
@bRizzle2009100 they are historians first and not ministers first then historians. the one you refer to is a minster, no they didn't and if they did it is because of false information by sparks. and no it was not taught that way for 150 years nice try. also by your logic we should keep the lie of the cherry tree. the historians u use have been caught lying and the ones i use have not,and actually let the documents speak for themselves.they dont try to give it a new meaning
@MrSupra7 : instead of relying on other "historians" to get your information, go to the Library of Congress or your local library and do THE RESEARCH YOURSELF. Look at George Washington's writings and then come back here and try to convince me that he was not (like many other founding fathers) a Bible believing Christian. There is a reason that the 10 commandments are found throughout the national capitol. Obviously history lies, right? Wrong.
@intheechoofangels lol really the 10 commandments anyone even atheist follow that if there are good people. also i have done the research, and it lacks, did Washington have faith, yes did he worship jesus or a Christian god. NO. he believe in god the creator, also he only mentions Jesus name once and that was as a 13yo boy. never took communion that is not very Christian at all. you must not have read Washington writings at all there is very little mention of religion, he jokes about scripture
@intheechoofangels also the historians spraks and weems have been csught making up quotes, and adding false lines to his works. plus the cherry tree lie. also sparks left out 500 docs of washingtons. gee wonder why. Worthington Chauncey Ford wrote the full version here is what he said about sparks
@MrSupra7 :Just because the Cross of Christ offends gives you ZERO right to spread your unwanted lies on here. Many, many of our next generation (including my daughter) come here and find your comments and begin to question their faith. You have no faith. Good. Keep it to yourself. Here (my video response) is PROOF of the Ten Commandments throughout Washington D.C. I refuse to let you and other "Americans" destroy what our forefathers created... ONE NATION UNDER GOD.
@intheechoofangels "In spite, however, of all that can be said in praise of Mr.Sparks's work, it must be admitted that his zeal led him into a serious error of judgment,so common to hero-worshipers, not only doing his own reputation, as an editor, an injury, but what is of greater moment, conveying a distorted idea of Washington's personal character and abilities - an idea that was,rapidly developing into a cult, from which it is still difficult to break away, and difficult to express disbelief
@intheechoofangels thank you for making an ass out of your self and immediately name call,and ASSume incorrectly. it is sad that i can look at my nations history objectively. i don't need proof been to D.C. big whoop they are good. i have faith, but i can see the lies and contradictions in the all the holy books, and i chosen a different way outside of organized religion, just like the founder would have done. sorry my free speech,facts, and being an American offends you.
@MrSupra7 : Obviously the Cross of Christ offends you. You have no faith. Good. Keep it to yourself. But i refuse to let you and others destroy what our forefathers blatantly created: ONE NATION UNDER GOD. This country was founded off of the teachings, ideologies and precepts found ONLY in the Bible. Many of our founding fathers praised God openly and there are also many documented writings that prove that they believed in God...
@intheechoofangels and one nation was added in the 50s did you know that? and why caps so much how old are you 12? and the constitution was based off the Iroquois league of nations. not the bible, and if they wanted the nation to be Christian then why not says son in the constitution? they didnt for a reason. they knew organized religion was a problem. i have never said they dont believe in god. also do you even know what a deist is? you just seem all roweled up for no reason.
@intheechoofangels i mean you really, keep missing the point and think im an atheist. hell you prolly think david barton cant tell a lie. why is that the people who want the founders to look more Christian have all been caught making up quotes? and the only refuting claim against anyone else is."oh they have been around for the past 50 years so they aren't credible" it could just be we were fine with religion until people started trying to shove it down our throats.
@MrSupra7 : I believe President Reagan said it best: "Without God there is no virtue because there is no prompting of the conscience...without God there is a coarsening of the society; without God democracy will not and cannot endure...if we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under". -Ronald Reagan, 40th President of the United States of America
@intheechoofangels GOD in a very general sense, not a Christian god,or muslim,or judeo. but just god. and i have not said one thing about us not needing god. although it is very possible to live without god in govt or in life. plenty of people dont believe in god and live good lives and help others. God does not =morality. we only became one nation under god in the 50s we have always been know as one out of many. FYI a baptist minster wrote the pledge and he PURPOSELY left god out of it.
@intheechoofangels So what if there a minister? Many of the founders were ministers so should we not pay attention to them as well?
I do let the documents speak for themselves. There are just many document that u choose not to look at. I brought up Nelly Custis' letter to Jared Sparks about Washington's faith and u dismissed bc "she was 10". She wasn't 10 when she wrote the letter, she was grown woman. She lived with Washington for 20+ years of her life. But I guess u know more than she does.
@MrSupra7 : make an ass of myself? Nice touch. Caps is to make a point. If you actually read the Bible instead of just "picking and choosing" what you think is "correct" you we wouldn't be having this conversation. This Bible verse sums it up best: "But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means." - 1 Corinthians 2:14
@MrSupra7 : You and everyone else think the Bible and Jesus is "foolishness" and no amount of my "preaching" or research will change that. But I find it very hard to believe someone would die on a cross just cause a bunch of controversy for later generations. People have been trying to debunk Christianity for ages and still it holds up against every other "religion" out there...
@MrSupra7 : One day, unfortunately you and everyone else will find out how wrong you are. There is no "higher power" or just some other "general God"... Jesus said that "no one goes to the Father except through Him. It offended people back then, and it continues to offend people today. But just because the truth is offensive doesn't change it from being the TRUTH. There is only one true God: and He made it plain to Moses on who He is. He is "I AM". Not "I was" "I were" or "I will be"...
@MrSupra7 : Scientists will tell you that " the universe points to a designer". Whether you wanna' call that designer, "Zues" "Allah" or "the flying spaghetti monster" is entirely up to you. No other person in history has made the claims the Bible has (ie Jesus Christ of Nazareth). And when something has to "transcend space and time" in order to create the Big Bang, that only leaves one possible answer: God, who said I AM. And that would be Jesus who said also, "I AM".
@intheechoofangels it took 5 post for you to make another ass of your self, and show you cant read.i believe in Jesus,but he is not god, but the son of god and his prophet.And see you still ASSume after i told i had faith. im talking about different contradictions, there are about 400 contradictions in the bible. so you think when the bible says its ok to have slaves,i shouldn't choose to ignore that? why did you attack me and dodge every single one of my points a questions?BTW im catholic
@MrSupra7: Catholic you say? Ok, show me that verse that says it's "ok to have slaves". Obviously that was never God's plan. It's part of the fall. Man always wants power and to overpower those around him. Its' human nature, not godly nature. If you say you believe in Jesus, then you either believe He is God or you don't believe at all. I know most Catholics don't bother to read their Bible but there are more than enough verses where Jesus claims His divinity. Yes, Jesus is God. He is the Word..
@intheechoofangels but then that mean mortal man can kill god? also why no mention of Jesus as god before that? Leviticus 25 44-46. god say to take slaves.psalms 2 8-9. look you really need to stop being so judgmental not very Christianity of you. you admit fault to the bible?that man wrote some of it? catholics do read their bible.lol dont forget who created Christianity.. the catholics. reading word for word isnt taking it out of context jeez sarah palin lol. still no answer.. nice! your funny
@MrSupra7 : "catholics do read their bible.lol dont forget who created Christianity.. the catholics"... I needed say anymore on that topic, you said it all yourself. Funny, you Catholics who think you still need to "earn" God's grace. Pathetic really. And you still took scripture out of context. I told you NOT to do that so I'm done arguing with complete ignorance. I'll sum it as best as I can: the Bible was not written TO us, rather it was written FOR us. There is a big difference their...
@intheechoofangels and yes cathiolics were the first christians, you should really do the research. now new testament slavery and possible condoneing of homosexuality. matthew,8:6-7. and 8:5-13. how about dont defend your self in court. matthew 5:40.luke 7:2-10. all of thos places jesus could have said realse your slaves and i will heal them for slavery is an abomnation to god.like 12:46-47 sounds like god will beat us like slaves.1 corinthians 7:21 colossians 4:1. nothing out of context.
@MrSupra7 : Catholicism is just another "ism" in my book, just like Lutheranism, Presbyterianism etc... the Disciples of Christ, were the first Christians. There were no bishops or anything else of the like. I prefer to be known simply as a "follower of Christ" or more commonly, a Christian. Period. About not defending yourself in court, well there is good reason for that. Paul mentions that "you should instead work out your problems through the Body of Christ (aka the church) [1 Cor. 6:1-7] ..
@MrSupra7 :... instead of letting the courts decide your lawsuits. Jesus, said the same thing in [Matt. 5:40] because revenge is not the way. "Let yourselves instead be wronged." Now, obviously this goes against all human nature, for we are not happy until we are vindicated. But that's just it, that's the way of the world not of Christ, because He knows that He has final say in EVERYTHING that happens in our lives. So why bother in court? Now, there are special cases but you get my drift...
@MrSupra7 : finally, your answer about Jesus "commanding to release all your slaves", well obviously you weren't paying attention earlier in scripture: Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” -Matthew 22:37-40
@MrSupra7 : Does Jesus need to spell it out any further for you? He said to "love your neighbor as yourself". That IS His declaration that slavery is an abomination to God, but even further that He commands us to love each other as we love ourselves. Now, here's a dumb question but I feel like asking you it: do you agree with yourself being sold into slavery? Um, of course not so why would you condone of someone else? The answers are all there if you just think a little and...
@MrSupra7 :..."read between the lines". And again, the I believe the 3 most crucial "guidelines" for understanding scripture are as follows: 1) Read the Bible for all it's worth; nothing more and nothing less. 2) Don't take verses out of context. Read everything around the verse and take that into account as well. and 3) Remember: the Bible was not necessarily so much written TO us as it was written FOR us.
@intheechoofangels look i havent taken anyhting out of context, all of these places suppot slavery, by jesus turning a blind eye, and saying if you are a slave dont desire you freedom!!! and because it was written for us we should follow every word? even in the "special" court case not defend ourselves. thats why i said "Pick and choose" . you cant say read it for all its worth the say its gods word. this is why i stay away from labels. beleive in god, help others, and be a good person.
@MrSupra7 : you, like so many others love to quote the Bible and take it out of it's context. The writer was clearly making a reference to Moses in HIS TIME PERIOD not ours. And just like other time periods, things change. There was very little slavery written about in the NT. And God Himself, COMMANDED Pharaoh to what? "Let My people go (aka, abolish them from SLAVERY). I write in all caps to get a point across, because sometimes i feel like I'm talking to a 4th grader and not a grown man...
@intheechoofangels lol still no answer to the questions i asked you, and you are still attacking my faith. also all the while saying all catholics dont read their bible, i guess no nun,priest,or school child does.and i kinda like the idea of being able to accept god,and earn my way into heaven with good deeds. but i guess you would rather have it the easy way and just do whatever in life and repent and accept jesus on your deathbed. yes but he still condoned slavery in many other places
@MrSupra7 : "and i kinda like the idea of being able to accept god,and earn my way into heaven with good deeds. but i guess you would rather have it the easy way and just do whatever in life and repent and accept jesus on your deathbed." Now you're putting words in my mouth. That is not how I live my life for Jesus. My "good deeds" are a result of my gratefulness for His death on the Cross. That's it period... Christ is renewing my mind daily, so I won't have to "accept Him on my deathbed"...
@intheechoofangels but by your logic someone can do just that and get away with it. and you like many people have faith and will be rewarded for it. i agree about the isms. thats why i think the founder were warm deists, but they still believed in god in general. i get what you are saying but still like you said speical cases. ie you being taken to court for murder you didnt not do. that wasnt the questions i was talking about but ok. no that is not good enough how can you that which offends you
@MrSupra7 : ... for I have already accepted Him and once I am in Christ, nothing can separate me from His agape love [Romans 8:38]. Now does that mean that I live my life for me regardless because I am forgiven? No! May it never be! I work out my salvation with with fear and trembling [Philippians 2:12] for I am a slave of Christ; not my own but bought with a price (no rhyme intended).
@MrSupra7 : and please Mr.Supra7, if you're going to "quote" Bible verses at me claiming your "proof" of the Bible condoning slavery, don't take scripture out of context. I hate when people do that with ANY writings. Keep it in context or don't bother replying. You'll only make an ass of YOURSELF.
@MrSupra7 : I'm done with this conversation. Now it's time for you to decide if you believe Jesus really is who He says He is. Coram Deo my friend....
@bRizzle2009100 also sparks would correct Washington grammar, and he also left out at least 500 writings of Washington. makes you wonder what he left out see Worthington Chauncey Ford. also the lies Washington step children told they also destroy their own creditability they say they never saw any private devotions, and that no one can confirm what they said even people there on the events.actually they for the most part say kids were wrong. most information from 520-525 has been proven false.
@bRizzle2009100 from nellys letter. disregard the fact she is 10
He communed with his God in secret sounds like a deist. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home,I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist. form his reverend
Of course you realize that letter was completely fabricated to give this illusion, not to reflect the truth. It's like the "never tell a lie" cherry tree story. False.
Thank you for uploading this! Thank you for this collection of quotes, they are true! I believe, that god himself inspired the founders of the united states and that their inhabitants should serve god and obey his laws, so that they never will fall into captivity. If they dont serve god and dont obey his laws, they will fall and will be punished.
@bRizzle2009100 I mean this video is quite incorrect. But if you have some "beliefs" that you feel comfortable with, carry on. I'm just stating a fact.
@TheEidolon7 The word Christ comes from the Greek word "Christos" which means Savior or Messiah (Hence, Jesus was the Savior of the world, he died on the cross for our sins. In another words, he is The Christ.) The founders understood this word, they were very educated and intelligent men.
Rev. Wilson, (having known Washington) in a sermon,October, 1831, which attracted wide attention when it was reported in the Albany Daily Advertiser, Wilson stated flatly that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than unitarianism." Washington, he went on to say, was a great and good man, but he was not a professor of religion; he was really a typical eighteenth-century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook.
Washington not only didn't take communion and when his wife,Martha did,he waited for her outside the sanctuary. Even on his deathbed,Washington wanted no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. Ur proof of Washington's "Christianity" is limited and superficial because he was not a Christian. He was a devout Deist,just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected. Never did he mention the Christian god, only "Providence," Diest-speak.
@seekertrth Listen, u don't know what you're talking about. For instance, the fact that some say, like u, that Washington didn't attend communion and that proves he wasn't a Christian. That comes from his private diary which is largely incomplete. Also, this notion that when a person from that time says "Providence", "The Almighty", "Supreme Judge of the World", etc they assume its Deistic terms. Read a Christian sermon from that time, you'll find the exact same language used by the preacher.
@bRizzle2009100 How very sad u r; u use incomplete diaries when it suits ur purpose, then disregard 1 if it doesn't. U assume any use of "God" refers to ur god (something u have repeatedly stated) which shows a prejudice (bigotry). I don't assume, I read COMPLETE information, which DOES lend itself well to the fact that several Founding Fathers were Deist. It is u that shows a lack of complete information and it has been proven that u take things out of context, twist facts, etc.
@seekertrth Listen, you're arguing with historical facts here. Go look at ANY sermon from the 18th or early 19th centuries in America. That is the way ppl talked back then. Christian preachers during sermons used words like "Providence", "Almighty Being", "The Almighty", "The Supreme Being". It was common language back then to use those terms. There were several deist founding fathers yes, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, and others. U are correct in stating that.
@bRizzle2009100 That's not what I said; I pointed out that u have repeatedly made the claim that any reference to 'God" means urs. Now u say something different something. I NEVER said that Christians didn't also use that language; don't put words in my mouth.
However, u still claim Christianity where there isn't, insist that we are a Christian Nation, when we never were. In one place you claim mixing religion and politics area bad idea, but everything else u say insists it is.
@seekertrth Well, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I was under the impression u meant by the founders using terms like "Providence" etc that they were deistic terms and that proved them to be deists. You're right just bc some uses "God" that doesn't mean they mean the Christian God. However, there were many founders who were Christians, u have accept that. This nation was borne out of Christian influences and origins, thats a fact. I will explain more on politics and religion in the next....
@seekertrth Here is what we were founded on & what I believe. Having a state established religion is dangerous to the liberties of the ppl and shouldn't be done. The Constitution prohibits this kind of action. The state and church therefore, bc of the state unable to establish an official religion, is prohibited from merging together. The state and church should never be one, that is dangerous. This does not mean tho that the public arena needs to secularized.... (continued in next comment)....
@seekertrth Religion & morality are essential to a free society & must remain in the public arena for a free constitutional republic like ours to remain free. Is it Ironic that ever since we stated secularizing our public schools & public arena that we started having all these problems with our liberties? (i.e. Patriot Act, Obamacare, Financial Reform Bill, Financial Meltdowns, Economic downturns, etc). When I say religion must remain in the public arena, I don't mean an institutional religion.
@bRizzle2009100 Morality + ethics should certainly be part of politics for our freedom. Religion is meant to be completely apart from government otherwise we WILL see the exact same thing that has happened throughout history and continues even now.
Your take on "ever since we stated secularizing our public schools & public arena that we started having all these problems with our liberties?" Is ridiculous. {cont, next comment}
@bRizzle2009100 Our problems are a direct result of the leaders of the religious right antoganizing their followers + feeding them one piece of rubbish after another while they reap personal/political fortune. The Patriot Act was championed by the religious right politicians, every attempt to limit Wall St/Big business,the same thing. "Obamacare,"if u actually looked into the real facts instead of listening soley to those w/ a vested interest, gives better/more coverage to those that need it.
@bRizzle2009100 (prt 3) The other choice,touted by ur "goood Xistians" is more private insurance(who,btw,contribute HUGE sums): over 1200 ppl die everyday, including many children as a result. They use religion and this entire fake issue of "Christian Nation" as a misdirection tactic. I have proved, several times that we r founded as a secular nation,survived+thrived as such.
@bRizzle2009100 U have been given the simplisitic answer that if every1 just went along w/ 1 particular religion,1particular sect thereof,everything will turn around and all answers will come. BS! It has NEVER worked that way, everytime,including modern versions, fail, resulting in chaos.
As an example, ever since this religious right has come into power, re-writing history and causing tensions, THAT IS WHEN OUR PROBLEMS STARTED!
@seekertrth No I don't think everyone should go along with one religion. That is a personal choice that the government should have no part in. What I am saying is that religion in general is good for the country and is needed to maintain morality. Religion serves as a check on people's conscience. Washington said that the two most indispensable supports of government was religion and morality. (I am telling u what the founders said).
@bRizzle2009100 Furthermore, I have proven, in the words of the "father of the Constitution" + Bill of Rights + his contemporaries, that u are completely wrong with the statement, "founded as a Christiam Nation.' u r simply a religous fundemantalist that talks the pretty game but then uses whatever cheap, deceptive and manipulative tactic to achieve ur goal. In short, u r EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned about and the reason why we r founded as a secular nation.
James Madison,Father of the Constitution,Bill of Rights,,Founding Father;"The number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood& the devotion of the people have been manifesrtly increased by THE TOTAL SEPARTATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."
Feb,1811,vetoed a bill to give Church funding for schools,etc b/c it violated the 1st amendment,Congress agreed. March,'11, vetoed giving a church governmt land,same reason. Congress debated,+ agreed.
I am not saying Washington was a leftist or engaged in "class warfare" in the modern sense; don't see where you're getting that, it would be absurd. I am saying that Washington's quote names people of "refined education" as those who are possibly okay with the concept of morality without religion. I don't see how in the 18th and early 19th centuries you could argue he was talking about anybody but the upper class with such a term as "refined education".
And so, it was usually the upper classes in Washington's time who had refined educations, and that is the distinction he makes in his paragraph. He therefore sees religion more as a tool for a shortcut to morality for the working class
; that doesn't mean he doesn't personally believe, just that he's not worried about imposing it on the upper class, or the ruling class, who can function morally without it.
@yggsdrasil1 Well, Washington wasn't engaged in class warfare like the Left is today. Washington didn't think the "upper class" could achieve morality without religion and didn't think that the "working class" was somehow different. You're making Washington into some kind of Leftist thinking, class warfare, person he clearly wasn't. Im reading that paragraph over and over again and I don't see how u come up with this conclusion. I think its pretty clear to me what he actually meant.
Let me try to come at it a little differently to be better understood--Washington names those of "refined education" as being those who would oppose his argument--he isn't saying, "Whatever may be the influence of cheap wine on vagabonds who read"; he is deliberately saying that it is certain members of the upper class who find morality to be possible without religion; not just any "intellectual" as we thing of them now...
With respect, you're the one who made 'minds of a peculiar structure' synonymous with intellectual... I went along with it but only to the extent that I see more of a sense of respect in Washington's phrasing. Plus, he's saying religion is good for a "national" morality, not necessarily required for individuals. The combination of respect for refinement (though perhaps regretful) and convenience for the masses equals tolerance of upper class secularism and skepticism of lower class secularism.
@yggsdrasil1 U bring in secularism, why? There is nothing secular about what Washington is saying in that paragraph. Washington was far from a secular person.
With regard to your dissection of the paragraph, I disagree with your interpretation of its meaning. I don't agree that he is just saying whatever "...an intellectual might think." I think he is saying that though secularism results from a strange combination of mind and education, it's impractical to apply it to the nation as a whole (the masses). But he is not implying that, though strange, these "refined" folks are less moral as individuals (he is not 'negative' toward their own morality).
With all due respect, I don't see how you gather that from that paragraph. If you know Washington as I do, he was a very honest, religious, and seen himself as more of a common man than an intellectual. He didn't want to do the things he did, he did not want to be the Commander-in-Cheif of the Continental Army, President of Constitutional Convention, President of the U.S., but he knew he had to for his country. He wanted to live a normal life at his ranch. Also,....
@bRizzle2009100 Also with respect, I would say I agree that Washington was one of the best figures of his time. He was ahead of his time on issues of race, class, warfare and government. Yet, he was still a product of his time and I would argue that the paragraph does not prove he wanted a Christian nation, but rather that he thought there were those whose minds could be moral without religion (those of "peculiar mind") and those who were better when helped to be moral through religious belief.
@yggsdrasil1 I never said this speech did say he wanted a Christian nation. The only thing the speech proves is that Washington's view that religion and morality was essential to good government. I think you are misunderstanding what Washington is saying. Yes, u are right he is referring to intellectuals when he says "minds of peculiar structure". What he is actually saying is despite what intellectuals may think, experience and reason both prove that morality cannot stand without religion.
With regard to the paragraph where Washington mentions "minds of peculiar structure", he is saying the the well educated can be moral without religion, but for the masses, it's much easier to justify morality with religion. It is a somewhat elitist approach to education. It carries echoes of Machiavelli and portents of Marx. He is saying religion is a useful opiate, but it's okay for his aristocratic buddies of peculiar minds to base their ethics on non-religious beliefs.
@yggsdrasil1 With all due respect, I don't see how you gather that from that paragraph. If you know Washington as I do, he was a very honest, religious, and seen himself as more of a common man than an intellectual. He didn't want to do the things he did, he did not want to be the Commander-in-Cheif of the Continental Army, President of Constitutional Convention, President of the U.S., but he knew he had to for his country. He wanted to live a normal life at his ranch. Also,....
@yggsdrasil1 ..... If you dissect the paragraph. "And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion." - With caution, lets talk about if morality can be achieved without religion. "Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure,"- No matter what any intellectual might think. "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
Do you think someone who cuts out all of the supernatural parts of the Bible with scissors, and denies the divinity of Jesus, is a Christian? Also, the English version of the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified by the Congress and signed by John Adams. If Adams were a strong Christian and believed that the US WAS a Christian nation, would he have signed a document that said otherwise? I don't think so. How is "Nature's God" a reference to the god of the Bible? It seems like a reference to deisms god.
@alexwhite71 Yes, despite the attempts to make them Christian, several were Deists. If you scroll past the latest comments between bRizzle and I, you will find a great deal that proves his view is quite mistaken and the flaws of his logic and actual grasp of the reality of American and/or general history is, at best, questionable.
"Moses,Eleazar the priest,and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?"he demanded" ~Small break (2-3 lines) to accomodat space constraints.~
"...Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live;you may keep them for yourselves.
u don't deal w/ reality/facts. 1st u say Jefferson + Franklin r Christian,I prove them Diests,u say that's "unorthodox" Christianity,I prove it's not,u say it doesn't matter; it only mattered when you either lied or had no idea what u were talking about + it supported your case. I provide everything from quotes from Jefferson,Franklin,Clay,Madison and the Constitution to the fact that personal religious views differ from political ones + u don't deal w/ it. u r mentally ill,fool or other defect
@bRizzle2009100 Leviticus, 25:10; a couple variations; "Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan." "Set this year apart as holy, a time to proclaim freedom throughout the land for all who live there. It will be a jubilee year for you, when each of you may return to the land that belonged to your ancestors and return to your own clan."
@bRizzle2009100 "...And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family." "Set apart the fiftieth year as holy, and proclaim liberty to everyone living in the land. This is your jubilee year. Every slave will be freed in order to return to his property and to his family
@bRizzle2009100 I assume u don't eat shrimp,clams,lobster or pick/choose parts.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas,and in the rivers,of all that move in the waters,and of any living thing which is in the waters,they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
@bRizzle2009100 (Deuteronomy 20:10-14, part 1) "As you approach a town to attack it,first offer its people terms for peace.If they accept your terms and open the gates to you,then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight,you must attack the town.
1. wow hasn't this guy read the Jefferson Bible? or any of Jefferson's letters?
2. Just because these guys liked the teaching of Jesus doesn't make them Christian. I like the teachings of Jesus and I'm an atheist.
3. Of course Paine did not believe in evolution it was not a theory yet
4. Paine and Jefferson were talking about the Deist God
5. Not atheist does not mean Christian
adrewyor10 2 days ago
concerning your G. Washington quote on the failure of Atheism: Here is experimental validation of Washington's ideal some 100 yrs later: "Atheism and Liberal, Missouri by apologetics press.
EPISTEMESCIENTIA 1 month ago
Who are the "founding fathers?" A list would be great and were they all for America being a "christian nation?"
BTW, what does it mean to be a christian nation?
HENRYPATRICK1736 2 months ago
bRizzle2009100 2 months ago
Yeah baby!!
9pt9 3 months ago
u challenged me to show where the Supreme court, pre 1947, supported Separation of Church/State. I did and included, in random order, quotes from Founding Fathers, Pesidents and other governent officials from the time of the Founding up to the middle of the 20th century. Which,btw,is when radicals like you began a very ugly and lie-filled re-writing of history and attack on the very foundation of this country. Such as putting "God" onto currency + the Pledge of Alliegance.
seekertrth 3 months ago
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seekertrth 3 months ago
Great video. IRREFUTABLE evidence. Good job!
9pt9 3 months ago
@9pt9 Actually, you must have missed the real facts.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 b/c in the middle of the 20th century, religous radicals, such as yourself, began not only inserting more Christian doctrine into schools (this is also the time that they forced the words "under God" into the Pledge) so the Supreme Court had to step in and sided with American tradition of Church/State seperation. Trying to find a bone to s=chew on? How laughable.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@seekertrth btw, what happened to YOUR claim that they supported religion in schools? Hmmmmm, seems it was just more BS from you.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Of further interest; God was not on the original currency, if the Founders thought we were strictly Christian, it would have. Wasn't in the original Pledge of Allegiance (that was added mid-20th century by radicals trying to re-write history,like u).
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 t was the Supreme Court that removed religion from the schools (which follows Madison's example,btw), now u try to claim they support it. They simply corrected a previous problem. If u don't agree then,following that logic u must agree that slavery, segregation and various other crimes once supported by law. The quote from Madison stands: u can try to re-arrange the words,u can't change the meaning. Ur re-writing of history doesn't make it real.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Read ur letter,cases do NOT support ur claims in any way, shape or form. I don't even understand how you can say they do.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 WOW! talk about distortion! The Supreme Court upheld it ONLY inasmuch as it pertained to PRIVATE schools and/or COMPARITIVE religious studies. The "secularization" started w/ the likes of Madison (remember the quote?),Jefferson,Franklin,etc. It is the REVISISIONIST HISTORY that started in the 20th century that tried to change that. There are THOUSANDS of court cases stating that religion and state ARE to be kept separate.
Keep talking,ur just making a fool of urself.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@seekertrth 1. Jefferson was referring to the Book of Revelations in the Bible not actual Divine Revelations from God. Check the actual sources and letters u are quoting. 2. Read Franklin's appeal for prayer at the Convention and his letter to Ezra Stiles right before he died. He did believe in Revelation. 3. Check US Supreme Court rulings: 1844 Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1892 Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 1890 Davis v. Beason, Murphy v. Ramsey 1885.
bRizzle2009100 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 @bRizzle2009100 Are you insane or just mentally challenged? Schools are public=government=no mixing. The schools were far more regional (read locally run) and they taught MORALITY as it pertained to religion,yes,specifically and geared towards indoctrination into Christendom,no. The commandments WERE removed from courts then,or were simply not displayed in the 1st place,though there were a few exceptions. To say differently is simply revionisionst history.
seekertrth 3 months ago
@seekertrth 2. I read the bill u referenced and the journals of Congress pertaining to it. Madison vetoed the bill because it would have incorporated a church that was basically ran by the federal government. In essence it would have created a federally established church which is a violation of the Constitution. Again, this goes back to the principle that "separation of church and state" means no established state religion or church. Not a display of religious expressions in the public arena.
bRizzle2009100 3 months ago
@seekertrth 3. Also give me sources on your second half of your comment about the 1811 vetoed bills so I can independently check it out.
bRizzle2009100 3 months ago
Lets see if bRizzle will post my video on whether or not America is a "Christian" nation. I doubt it because whenever I attempt to post a video on ANY Christian site, they're scared to post it. Hmmm, I wonder why?
sgapplebee 4 months ago
@sgapplebee I have no video responses in my inbox. Can you please send it again? I would be more than happy to post it. I don't know what happened there. I would like to see your video and respond to it.
bRizzle2009100 4 months ago
wow this is complete bull sh[? these is false ,,,,, fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake fake,,,
bronco78040 6 months ago
@bronco78040
I guess your mantra will change truth to falsehood ... for you. It will not, however, affect the veracity of the statements in this presentation.
MrSandykramer 5 months ago in playlist Founding Fathers our Beliefs
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JasonKeis 6 months ago
Don't kid yourself. Jefferson was clear about his faith. Only you, David Barton and James Kennedy want to promote revised history instead of actual facts. David Barton has actually backtracked most of the quotes you use in this video and admitted that some were fiction and the rest were of questionable origin. I find that people like Barton, James Kennedy and possibly you are not interested in truth, just your version of it.
pianodon 6 months ago
@pianodon What quote have I used in this video that I apparently got from David Barton that he had to retract?
What quote has Barton had to retract? I don't know of any quote he has officially retracted.
What in this video was "my version" of the truth exactly? Everything in this video is historical fact.
bRizzle2009100 6 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 These quotes are false, Washington and Jefferson were deists not Christians. Many of the founders didn't believe in the Christian faith or any religion for that matter. Other notable deists were Ben Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Monroe and James Madison. Not to mention Thomas Paine who was author of many great works of literature, most notably the anti-Christian "Age of Reason."
This is simply more Christo-Fascist historical revisionism.
Patwmi 4 months ago
@Patwmi 1. Jefferson was not a deist, but he was not a Christian either. 2. Washington was a devout Christian. 3. Ben Franklin was a deist but not a traditional one that rejected Divine Providence. 4. Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine were deists yes. 5. James Madison and Monroe were both Christians.
There are over 250 founding fathers, you named 7 of them and said "Many of the founders didn't believe in the Christian faith or any religion for that matter." Thats not evidence my friend.
bRizzle2009100 4 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 1) Jefferson stated he wasa Deist. 2) Washington was a Christian but certainly not a "devout" one, check history. 3) Deists did not reject the notion of Divinity but yes, Franklin DID reject Divine Intervention. re 5, Madison also stated that everyone "benefitted greatly from the total separation of church and state. So far, u have been wrong on every single point but that Paine wasa deist. Surprising, considering u clearly don't even know what the word means.
seekertrth 3 months ago in playlist More videos from bRizzle2009100
@seekertrth 1. "Jefferson stated he wasa Deist." Where did he state he was a deist? A Deist in the founder's days was different than now. The definition of deism in Webster's 1828 dictionary, "... the belief or system of religious opinions of those who acknowledge the existence of one God, but deny revelation". Franklin called himself a deist but believed in revelation. Paine was a deist in the truest sense. Jefferson was not a deist as he never called himself one and believed in revelation.
bRizzle2009100 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Jefferson called Revelations, "the Ravings of a maniac." Franklin, to my knowledge, denied everything but being a Diest and I don't know where u get the idea he accepted Revelation. Regarding ur message that Madison's vetoes don't count as religion in the public arena is SSSOOO incredibly asinine it hardly bears repeating except to point that out.
The whole point of this video seems to be to claim we are a founded as Christian nation, we were founded as a secular nation!
seekertrth 3 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 See, it's the same thing again, u change ur story when it's obvious ur wrong; this video purports that we are founded as a Christian nation, now it's "religion in the public arena" Guess what, ur still wrong. Perhaps u should focus ur mind on the fact that people who taught u were more concerned w/ brainwashing (indoctrination) than the truth for their own political and personal gain. God being used as a tool, EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned against!
seekertrth 3 months ago
I think you need to read more of the founding fathers' actual personal writings than to keep regurgitating David Barton's twisted, out of context posts. Nothing like twisting history as you have done in this video.
pianodon 8 months ago
@pianodon How have I twisted history exactly?
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100
You have cherry picked a handful of quotes completely out of context, ignoring pages and pages of writings of the founding fathers. The most irresponsible example is your smug claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. When you build a house on sand, it is always unstable and never right. Your video is built upon sand and is so full of historical flaws and holes it is useless as a study of truth. This video is worthless as a legitimate study of American history.
pianodon 8 months ago
@pianodon Well Jefferson's faith is complicated. I have two videos devoted to his religious beliefs. If you watch those two videos then that Jefferson quote will bring it more into context.
Religion was seen as an important aspect of American liberty by the founders in general. Specifically the Christian religion. Many of the founders wanted the Bible taught in schools. They had church in the U.S. Capitol Building on Sundays. Many things the ACLU and AU for Church & State would despise.
bRizzle2009100 7 months ago
@Domodeath i can say 1000000 years from now someone will be born named fred, then someon can name them fred and then i predict the future?
FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 8 months ago
uhhh we are secular
FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 8 months ago
@FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 The founders' view on government was that it could not prosper without religion and morality. John Adams said, "It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." George Washington, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."
Yep they definitely meant for us to be secular alright.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 some founders were religious, so what
FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7 8 months ago
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MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 you need to watch this vid. with other quotes and history of founding fathers.
/watch?v=ZWy602JbSUU
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 There were no facts in that video. Miller claims that Washington was an "unenthusiastic church goer" yet he doesn't point out that Washington was deeply involved in his church, the Anglican Church. He was a vestryman and church warden for a number of years.
He also said "when this country declared our independence in 1776, it also enshrined into law that the church & the state were to be completely separate." The Declaration makes no reference to the separation of church and state.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 but he says he would leave before services were over and often didn't attend, i think that was more an honor bestowed on him. who cares the first amendment basically says that. and the only people who really think different are evangelical Christians
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 Well with respect to Mr. Miller, he is incorrect. Washington was a very religious person. He did attend church. In the revolutionary war, he had chaplains to perform Sunday services. When he didn't have a chaplain, he performed it himself. Look at the letter by his daughter Nelly-Custis-Lewis. She said to question Washington's christianity would be like questioning his patriotism for his country.
The first amendment says the federal govt cant establish a national religion.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 nor can they establish a low respecting religion. you know like putting under god in the pledge.He deplored the sectarian strife in Ireland, and wished the debate over Patrick Henry's General Assessment bill would "die an easy death."He was complimentary to all groups and attended Quaker, German Reformed, and Roman Catholic services Clear evidence of his personal theology is lacking, even on his deathbed when he died a "death of civility" without expressions of Christian hope.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 In the Revolutionary War, Washington supported troops selecting their own chaplains (such as the Universalist John Murray) while trying to avoid the development of factions within the army. Religion offered him moral leverage to instill discipline, reduce theft, deter desertion, and minimize other rambunctious behaviors that upset local residents. but it may have been motivated more by a desire for improving life on earth rather than dealing with life after death.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 I would urge u to read "George Washington's Sacred Fire". It is a very well organized and cited book. It's rather long, about 750 pages of reading material. Most of the footnotes pre-date 1812 so you know its a trusted book. It's about George Washington's religion. It has a whole chapter's devoted to Washington's work as a vestryman, his communion practices, his childhood education, basically anything u wanna know. I recommend it to u.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 For absence from church, according to the Virginia law of that day, "for the first offense," might have received "stoppage of allowance; for the second, whipping; for the third, the galleys for six months." doesnt mean everyone was super religious.That Washington was a vestryman has no special significance religiously. In Virginia, this office was also political. The vestry managed the civil affairs of the parish, among others, the assessment of taxes.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 cont. Being the largest property holder in the parish, Washington could hardly afford not to be a vestryman.Thomas Jefferson, a pronounced unbeliever, was also a vestryman, and for the same reasons. General A.W. Greeley once said, in 'The Ladies Home Journal,' that in that day "it required no more religion to be a vestryman than it did to sail a ship." # times he went to church 1771-1788 15,10,9,12,5,18,1,1,3,1 revolution heavy fighting,84 in the west wasnt able to attend,1,1,3
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 and after the presidency when he didn't have to keep appearances up he went as little as possible. he went only 2 time in the year of his death. that says a lot. i think he had a different kind of faith one were you dont need to go to church but still believe in god, ad can question certain aspects of the bible and teachings
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 The book I cited addresses all of those points. When Washington & his family didn't go to church, they had it at their house. Washington would read scriptures from the Bible to his family and he would preach to them. On some days, this lasted for hours. Washington also used Biblical language to refer to God. He used words such as the "God of Armies", "Lord of Hosts", "Creator", "Jehovah" and some 20 other Biblical definitions for God. He even referred to the Bible as the "Word of God"
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 no he wouldn't i read all that straight from his diaries, he would write letters and talk and visit with people on Sunday not hold church. but he uses jesus christ only once in 20000 docs.im not a full Christian but i still say god, what your point, im not saying he was faithless i just don't think he believed in a Christian god or Islamic god, but just GOD kinda like a deist. so every one say the bible is the word of god, i say that but i find a lot of contradictions and hateful
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 ... there are many other instances of Washington using Biblical language. He refers to the "Throne of Grace" in many of his letters. He speaks of Noah as if he believed he was a real person. In fact, Micah 4:4 was his most cited Bible verse throughout his writings, some 20+ times he cited it. Now if u didn't know the Bible, u would read right over it and not realize it was a Bible verse he was referring to. There are hundreds of Biblical phrases he uses throughout his writings.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 any religion except atheism would be ok with mica 4:4 even a deist, or someone on the verge. who cares about mica verse anyways any leader could say that and it would sound good. and not hundred only a few. and being a Christian he doesnt mention Jesus but once, any Christian i know always talks about Jesus and he is the only salvation. Washington may have been closer to catholic not "Christian" in that he didnt believe Jesus was the way to heaven GOD was.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 Listen, there is so much evidence out there that Washington was a christian. The book "George Washington's Sacred Fire" explains it all. Washington uses evangelical christian language all the time in his letters. The problem is we have historians who don't know the Bible at all and when the see it they don't recognize it. This man had a great knowledge of the Bible. He uses some 20 Biblical names for God. He cites Bible verses left and right. He even refers to the Bible as God'd Word.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 and i just told you so what i can do that too and im not a "Christian" so can many atheist i know, you know why? because they like to know what they are talking about before they quit religion. look the author is just like barton trying to paint all of our founding fathers as evangelical Christians. but fact of the matter they have shown to be too smart for organized religion, thats why they tried to kepp it out of the govt. and allow anyone to belive what they wanted
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 i mean even the founders knew that religion was responsible for more deaths than all the famines,plagues,and wars of all history combined.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 If u look at 19th century historians, we get a completely opposite picture of Washington than one that u and others paint. The earliest biographies written on Washington say with out a doubt that Washington was a christian. That was the consensus until the mid 20th century. Now all of the "historians" quote the books from the 1930's-present that all say he was a deist. Yet, there is no mention of the earlier work on Washington. It's called revisionism.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 no i believe it is called facts and Washington own words. just like in his diary, look was it wasnt law he had no desire to go to church. and anything i have looked up has predated that, also scared fire was written post 1930s.It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible just like Washington never said thatr but so many "historians" do. fact is the historians saying he not Christian aren't fabricating quotes to support their case. that says a lot
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 I'll give u an example. In "The Life of George Washington" by Jared Sparks, who was a famous 19th century historian, says on page 525 of his book (and many other pages) that without a doubt, Washington believed in the revelation of Christianity. Now this might come as a surprise to u, but in that time period, that was the common consensus. Until the mid 20th century, when all these historians started coming out with different opinions.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 lol why do you keep using fake historians that are evangelical Christians? Washington mica 4:4 was nothing more than a figure of speech, that he wanted to go home. have you ever read the way Washington used the bible verses? defiantly more allusion, than holy. and most of the times Washington used scripture its was him being funny even the write or sacred fire admits it. sparks admitted to wanting to make Washington look more Christian.he even tried t peg franklin as Christian.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 So the historians u use I assume are not fake historians. But the ones I refer to are. Why is that? Historians all throughout the 19th and even the early 20th centuries all had the consensus that Washington was a christian. That was the way it was taught in schools for 150 years. Now we have a few historians in the last 50 years or so who say something different. Now we just ignore the previous consensus of the last 150 years? Sounds like historical revisionism to me.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 they are historians first and not ministers first then historians. the one you refer to is a minster, no they didn't and if they did it is because of false information by sparks. and no it was not taught that way for 150 years nice try. also by your logic we should keep the lie of the cherry tree. the historians u use have been caught lying and the ones i use have not,and actually let the documents speak for themselves.they dont try to give it a new meaning
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : instead of relying on other "historians" to get your information, go to the Library of Congress or your local library and do THE RESEARCH YOURSELF. Look at George Washington's writings and then come back here and try to convince me that he was not (like many other founding fathers) a Bible believing Christian. There is a reason that the 10 commandments are found throughout the national capitol. Obviously history lies, right? Wrong.
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels lol really the 10 commandments anyone even atheist follow that if there are good people. also i have done the research, and it lacks, did Washington have faith, yes did he worship jesus or a Christian god. NO. he believe in god the creator, also he only mentions Jesus name once and that was as a 13yo boy. never took communion that is not very Christian at all. you must not have read Washington writings at all there is very little mention of religion, he jokes about scripture
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels also the historians spraks and weems have been csught making up quotes, and adding false lines to his works. plus the cherry tree lie. also sparks left out 500 docs of washingtons. gee wonder why. Worthington Chauncey Ford wrote the full version here is what he said about sparks
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 :Just because the Cross of Christ offends gives you ZERO right to spread your unwanted lies on here. Many, many of our next generation (including my daughter) come here and find your comments and begin to question their faith. You have no faith. Good. Keep it to yourself. Here (my video response) is PROOF of the Ten Commandments throughout Washington D.C. I refuse to let you and other "Americans" destroy what our forefathers created... ONE NATION UNDER GOD.
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels "In spite, however, of all that can be said in praise of Mr.Sparks's work, it must be admitted that his zeal led him into a serious error of judgment,so common to hero-worshipers, not only doing his own reputation, as an editor, an injury, but what is of greater moment, conveying a distorted idea of Washington's personal character and abilities - an idea that was,rapidly developing into a cult, from which it is still difficult to break away, and difficult to express disbelief
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels thank you for making an ass out of your self and immediately name call,and ASSume incorrectly. it is sad that i can look at my nations history objectively. i don't need proof been to D.C. big whoop they are good. i have faith, but i can see the lies and contradictions in the all the holy books, and i chosen a different way outside of organized religion, just like the founder would have done. sorry my free speech,facts, and being an American offends you.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : Obviously the Cross of Christ offends you. You have no faith. Good. Keep it to yourself. But i refuse to let you and others destroy what our forefathers blatantly created: ONE NATION UNDER GOD. This country was founded off of the teachings, ideologies and precepts found ONLY in the Bible. Many of our founding fathers praised God openly and there are also many documented writings that prove that they believed in God...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels and one nation was added in the 50s did you know that? and why caps so much how old are you 12? and the constitution was based off the Iroquois league of nations. not the bible, and if they wanted the nation to be Christian then why not says son in the constitution? they didnt for a reason. they knew organized religion was a problem. i have never said they dont believe in god. also do you even know what a deist is? you just seem all roweled up for no reason.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels i mean you really, keep missing the point and think im an atheist. hell you prolly think david barton cant tell a lie. why is that the people who want the founders to look more Christian have all been caught making up quotes? and the only refuting claim against anyone else is."oh they have been around for the past 50 years so they aren't credible" it could just be we were fine with religion until people started trying to shove it down our throats.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : I believe President Reagan said it best: "Without God there is no virtue because there is no prompting of the conscience...without God there is a coarsening of the society; without God democracy will not and cannot endure...if we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under". -Ronald Reagan, 40th President of the United States of America
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels GOD in a very general sense, not a Christian god,or muslim,or judeo. but just god. and i have not said one thing about us not needing god. although it is very possible to live without god in govt or in life. plenty of people dont believe in god and live good lives and help others. God does not =morality. we only became one nation under god in the 50s we have always been know as one out of many. FYI a baptist minster wrote the pledge and he PURPOSELY left god out of it.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : I've done my research, now it is time for you to do the same.
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels So what if there a minister? Many of the founders were ministers so should we not pay attention to them as well?
I do let the documents speak for themselves. There are just many document that u choose not to look at. I brought up Nelly Custis' letter to Jared Sparks about Washington's faith and u dismissed bc "she was 10". She wasn't 10 when she wrote the letter, she was grown woman. She lived with Washington for 20+ years of her life. But I guess u know more than she does.
bRizzle2009100 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : make an ass of myself? Nice touch. Caps is to make a point. If you actually read the Bible instead of just "picking and choosing" what you think is "correct" you we wouldn't be having this conversation. This Bible verse sums it up best: "But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means." - 1 Corinthians 2:14
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : You and everyone else think the Bible and Jesus is "foolishness" and no amount of my "preaching" or research will change that. But I find it very hard to believe someone would die on a cross just cause a bunch of controversy for later generations. People have been trying to debunk Christianity for ages and still it holds up against every other "religion" out there...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
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@MrSupra7 : One day, unfortunately you and everyone else will find out how wrong you are. There is no "higher power" or just some other "general God"... Jesus said that "no one goes to the Father except through Him. It offended people back then, and it continues to offend people today. But just because the truth is offensive doesn't change it from being the TRUTH. There is only one true God: and He made it plain to Moses on who He is. He is "I AM". Not "I was" "I were" or "I will be"...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : Scientists will tell you that " the universe points to a designer". Whether you wanna' call that designer, "Zues" "Allah" or "the flying spaghetti monster" is entirely up to you. No other person in history has made the claims the Bible has (ie Jesus Christ of Nazareth). And when something has to "transcend space and time" in order to create the Big Bang, that only leaves one possible answer: God, who said I AM. And that would be Jesus who said also, "I AM".
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels it took 5 post for you to make another ass of your self, and show you cant read.i believe in Jesus,but he is not god, but the son of god and his prophet.And see you still ASSume after i told i had faith. im talking about different contradictions, there are about 400 contradictions in the bible. so you think when the bible says its ok to have slaves,i shouldn't choose to ignore that? why did you attack me and dodge every single one of my points a questions?BTW im catholic
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7: Catholic you say? Ok, show me that verse that says it's "ok to have slaves". Obviously that was never God's plan. It's part of the fall. Man always wants power and to overpower those around him. Its' human nature, not godly nature. If you say you believe in Jesus, then you either believe He is God or you don't believe at all. I know most Catholics don't bother to read their Bible but there are more than enough verses where Jesus claims His divinity. Yes, Jesus is God. He is the Word..
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels but then that mean mortal man can kill god? also why no mention of Jesus as god before that? Leviticus 25 44-46. god say to take slaves.psalms 2 8-9. look you really need to stop being so judgmental not very Christianity of you. you admit fault to the bible?that man wrote some of it? catholics do read their bible.lol dont forget who created Christianity.. the catholics. reading word for word isnt taking it out of context jeez sarah palin lol. still no answer.. nice! your funny
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : "catholics do read their bible.lol dont forget who created Christianity.. the catholics"... I needed say anymore on that topic, you said it all yourself. Funny, you Catholics who think you still need to "earn" God's grace. Pathetic really. And you still took scripture out of context. I told you NOT to do that so I'm done arguing with complete ignorance. I'll sum it as best as I can: the Bible was not written TO us, rather it was written FOR us. There is a big difference their...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels and yes cathiolics were the first christians, you should really do the research. now new testament slavery and possible condoneing of homosexuality. matthew,8:6-7. and 8:5-13. how about dont defend your self in court. matthew 5:40.luke 7:2-10. all of thos places jesus could have said realse your slaves and i will heal them for slavery is an abomnation to god.like 12:46-47 sounds like god will beat us like slaves.1 corinthians 7:21 colossians 4:1. nothing out of context.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : Catholicism is just another "ism" in my book, just like Lutheranism, Presbyterianism etc... the Disciples of Christ, were the first Christians. There were no bishops or anything else of the like. I prefer to be known simply as a "follower of Christ" or more commonly, a Christian. Period. About not defending yourself in court, well there is good reason for that. Paul mentions that "you should instead work out your problems through the Body of Christ (aka the church) [1 Cor. 6:1-7] ..
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 :... instead of letting the courts decide your lawsuits. Jesus, said the same thing in [Matt. 5:40] because revenge is not the way. "Let yourselves instead be wronged." Now, obviously this goes against all human nature, for we are not happy until we are vindicated. But that's just it, that's the way of the world not of Christ, because He knows that He has final say in EVERYTHING that happens in our lives. So why bother in court? Now, there are special cases but you get my drift...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : finally, your answer about Jesus "commanding to release all your slaves", well obviously you weren't paying attention earlier in scripture: Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” -Matthew 22:37-40
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : Does Jesus need to spell it out any further for you? He said to "love your neighbor as yourself". That IS His declaration that slavery is an abomination to God, but even further that He commands us to love each other as we love ourselves. Now, here's a dumb question but I feel like asking you it: do you agree with yourself being sold into slavery? Um, of course not so why would you condone of someone else? The answers are all there if you just think a little and...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 :..."read between the lines". And again, the I believe the 3 most crucial "guidelines" for understanding scripture are as follows: 1) Read the Bible for all it's worth; nothing more and nothing less. 2) Don't take verses out of context. Read everything around the verse and take that into account as well. and 3) Remember: the Bible was not necessarily so much written TO us as it was written FOR us.
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels look i havent taken anyhting out of context, all of these places suppot slavery, by jesus turning a blind eye, and saying if you are a slave dont desire you freedom!!! and because it was written for us we should follow every word? even in the "special" court case not defend ourselves. thats why i said "Pick and choose" . you cant say read it for all its worth the say its gods word. this is why i stay away from labels. beleive in god, help others, and be a good person.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : you, like so many others love to quote the Bible and take it out of it's context. The writer was clearly making a reference to Moses in HIS TIME PERIOD not ours. And just like other time periods, things change. There was very little slavery written about in the NT. And God Himself, COMMANDED Pharaoh to what? "Let My people go (aka, abolish them from SLAVERY). I write in all caps to get a point across, because sometimes i feel like I'm talking to a 4th grader and not a grown man...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels lol still no answer to the questions i asked you, and you are still attacking my faith. also all the while saying all catholics dont read their bible, i guess no nun,priest,or school child does.and i kinda like the idea of being able to accept god,and earn my way into heaven with good deeds. but i guess you would rather have it the easy way and just do whatever in life and repent and accept jesus on your deathbed. yes but he still condoned slavery in many other places
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : "and i kinda like the idea of being able to accept god,and earn my way into heaven with good deeds. but i guess you would rather have it the easy way and just do whatever in life and repent and accept jesus on your deathbed." Now you're putting words in my mouth. That is not how I live my life for Jesus. My "good deeds" are a result of my gratefulness for His death on the Cross. That's it period... Christ is renewing my mind daily, so I won't have to "accept Him on my deathbed"...
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@intheechoofangels but by your logic someone can do just that and get away with it. and you like many people have faith and will be rewarded for it. i agree about the isms. thats why i think the founder were warm deists, but they still believed in god in general. i get what you are saying but still like you said speical cases. ie you being taken to court for murder you didnt not do. that wasnt the questions i was talking about but ok. no that is not good enough how can you that which offends you
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : ... for I have already accepted Him and once I am in Christ, nothing can separate me from His agape love [Romans 8:38]. Now does that mean that I live my life for me regardless because I am forgiven? No! May it never be! I work out my salvation with with fear and trembling [Philippians 2:12] for I am a slave of Christ; not my own but bought with a price (no rhyme intended).
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
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intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : good day, and keep that in mind please: "The Bible was written FOR us [believers] and not TO us."
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
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@MrSupra7 : ... made flesh. "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus] and the Word was with God and the Word was God." -John 1:1
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : and please Mr.Supra7, if you're going to "quote" Bible verses at me claiming your "proof" of the Bible condoning slavery, don't take scripture out of context. I hate when people do that with ANY writings. Keep it in context or don't bother replying. You'll only make an ass of YOURSELF.
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@MrSupra7 : I'm done with this conversation. Now it's time for you to decide if you believe Jesus really is who He says He is. Coram Deo my friend....
intheechoofangels 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 also sparks would correct Washington grammar, and he also left out at least 500 writings of Washington. makes you wonder what he left out see Worthington Chauncey Ford. also the lies Washington step children told they also destroy their own creditability they say they never saw any private devotions, and that no one can confirm what they said even people there on the events.actually they for the most part say kids were wrong. most information from 520-525 has been proven false.
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 from nellys letter. disregard the fact she is 10
He communed with his God in secret sounds like a deist. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home,I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist. form his reverend
MrSupra7 8 months ago
@bRizzle2009100
Of course you realize that letter was completely fabricated to give this illusion, not to reflect the truth. It's like the "never tell a lie" cherry tree story. False.
pianodon 6 months ago
@pianodon Where is your evidence that the letter was "completely fabricated"? That is the first time I've heard that before.
bRizzle2009100 6 months ago
@AtheosRecords I'll check into it and see what I can find. I've never heard anyone claim this before.
bRizzle2009100 9 months ago
@AtheosRecords I think most historians, even the secular ones, would disagree with u. I have never heard that before.
bRizzle2009100 9 months ago
Thank you for uploading this! Thank you for this collection of quotes, they are true! I believe, that god himself inspired the founders of the united states and that their inhabitants should serve god and obey his laws, so that they never will fall into captivity. If they dont serve god and dont obey his laws, they will fall and will be punished.
Theamericanstates 9 months ago
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TheEidolon7 9 months ago
@TheEidolon7 I made these videos. What do u mean exactly?
bRizzle2009100 9 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 I mean this video is quite incorrect. But if you have some "beliefs" that you feel comfortable with, carry on. I'm just stating a fact.
TheEidolon7 9 months ago
@TheEidolon7 Are u saying the majority of the founders weren't christians?
bRizzle2009100 9 months ago
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TheEidolon7 9 months ago
@TheEidolon7 The word Christ comes from the Greek word "Christos" which means Savior or Messiah (Hence, Jesus was the Savior of the world, he died on the cross for our sins. In another words, he is The Christ.) The founders understood this word, they were very educated and intelligent men.
bRizzle2009100 9 months ago
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TheEidolon7 9 months ago
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Rev. Wilson, (having known Washington) in a sermon,October, 1831, which attracted wide attention when it was reported in the Albany Daily Advertiser, Wilson stated flatly that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than unitarianism." Washington, he went on to say, was a great and good man, but he was not a professor of religion; he was really a typical eighteenth-century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook.
seekertrth 10 months ago
Washington not only didn't take communion and when his wife,Martha did,he waited for her outside the sanctuary. Even on his deathbed,Washington wanted no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. Ur proof of Washington's "Christianity" is limited and superficial because he was not a Christian. He was a devout Deist,just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected. Never did he mention the Christian god, only "Providence," Diest-speak.
seekertrth 10 months ago
@seekertrth Listen, u don't know what you're talking about. For instance, the fact that some say, like u, that Washington didn't attend communion and that proves he wasn't a Christian. That comes from his private diary which is largely incomplete. Also, this notion that when a person from that time says "Providence", "The Almighty", "Supreme Judge of the World", etc they assume its Deistic terms. Read a Christian sermon from that time, you'll find the exact same language used by the preacher.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 How very sad u r; u use incomplete diaries when it suits ur purpose, then disregard 1 if it doesn't. U assume any use of "God" refers to ur god (something u have repeatedly stated) which shows a prejudice (bigotry). I don't assume, I read COMPLETE information, which DOES lend itself well to the fact that several Founding Fathers were Deist. It is u that shows a lack of complete information and it has been proven that u take things out of context, twist facts, etc.
seekertrth 10 months ago
@seekertrth Listen, you're arguing with historical facts here. Go look at ANY sermon from the 18th or early 19th centuries in America. That is the way ppl talked back then. Christian preachers during sermons used words like "Providence", "Almighty Being", "The Almighty", "The Supreme Being". It was common language back then to use those terms. There were several deist founding fathers yes, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, and others. U are correct in stating that.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 That's not what I said; I pointed out that u have repeatedly made the claim that any reference to 'God" means urs. Now u say something different something. I NEVER said that Christians didn't also use that language; don't put words in my mouth.
However, u still claim Christianity where there isn't, insist that we are a Christian Nation, when we never were. In one place you claim mixing religion and politics area bad idea, but everything else u say insists it is.
seekertrth 10 months ago
@seekertrth Well, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I was under the impression u meant by the founders using terms like "Providence" etc that they were deistic terms and that proved them to be deists. You're right just bc some uses "God" that doesn't mean they mean the Christian God. However, there were many founders who were Christians, u have accept that. This nation was borne out of Christian influences and origins, thats a fact. I will explain more on politics and religion in the next....
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@seekertrth Here is what we were founded on & what I believe. Having a state established religion is dangerous to the liberties of the ppl and shouldn't be done. The Constitution prohibits this kind of action. The state and church therefore, bc of the state unable to establish an official religion, is prohibited from merging together. The state and church should never be one, that is dangerous. This does not mean tho that the public arena needs to secularized.... (continued in next comment)....
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@seekertrth Religion & morality are essential to a free society & must remain in the public arena for a free constitutional republic like ours to remain free. Is it Ironic that ever since we stated secularizing our public schools & public arena that we started having all these problems with our liberties? (i.e. Patriot Act, Obamacare, Financial Reform Bill, Financial Meltdowns, Economic downturns, etc). When I say religion must remain in the public arena, I don't mean an institutional religion.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Morality + ethics should certainly be part of politics for our freedom. Religion is meant to be completely apart from government otherwise we WILL see the exact same thing that has happened throughout history and continues even now.
Your take on "ever since we stated secularizing our public schools & public arena that we started having all these problems with our liberties?" Is ridiculous. {cont, next comment}
seekertrth 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Our problems are a direct result of the leaders of the religious right antoganizing their followers + feeding them one piece of rubbish after another while they reap personal/political fortune. The Patriot Act was championed by the religious right politicians, every attempt to limit Wall St/Big business,the same thing. "Obamacare,"if u actually looked into the real facts instead of listening soley to those w/ a vested interest, gives better/more coverage to those that need it.
seekertrth 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 (prt 3) The other choice,touted by ur "goood Xistians" is more private insurance(who,btw,contribute HUGE sums): over 1200 ppl die everyday, including many children as a result. They use religion and this entire fake issue of "Christian Nation" as a misdirection tactic. I have proved, several times that we r founded as a secular nation,survived+thrived as such.
{cont. next comment}
seekertrth 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 U have been given the simplisitic answer that if every1 just went along w/ 1 particular religion,1particular sect thereof,everything will turn around and all answers will come. BS! It has NEVER worked that way, everytime,including modern versions, fail, resulting in chaos.
As an example, ever since this religious right has come into power, re-writing history and causing tensions, THAT IS WHEN OUR PROBLEMS STARTED!
Check the facts + history.
seekertrth 10 months ago
@seekertrth No I don't think everyone should go along with one religion. That is a personal choice that the government should have no part in. What I am saying is that religion in general is good for the country and is needed to maintain morality. Religion serves as a check on people's conscience. Washington said that the two most indispensable supports of government was religion and morality. (I am telling u what the founders said).
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
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seekertrth 10 months ago
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@bRizzle2009100 Furthermore, I have proven, in the words of the "father of the Constitution" + Bill of Rights + his contemporaries, that u are completely wrong with the statement, "founded as a Christiam Nation.' u r simply a religous fundemantalist that talks the pretty game but then uses whatever cheap, deceptive and manipulative tactic to achieve ur goal. In short, u r EXACTLY what the Founding Fathers warned about and the reason why we r founded as a secular nation.
seekertrth 10 months ago
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seekertrth 10 months ago
James Madison,Father of the Constitution,Bill of Rights,,Founding Father;"The number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood& the devotion of the people have been manifesrtly increased by THE TOTAL SEPARTATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."
Feb,1811,vetoed a bill to give Church funding for schools,etc b/c it violated the 1st amendment,Congress agreed. March,'11, vetoed giving a church governmt land,same reason. Congress debated,+ agreed.
No more deluded and revisionist history from u!
seekertrth 10 months ago
I am not saying Washington was a leftist or engaged in "class warfare" in the modern sense; don't see where you're getting that, it would be absurd. I am saying that Washington's quote names people of "refined education" as those who are possibly okay with the concept of morality without religion. I don't see how in the 18th and early 19th centuries you could argue he was talking about anybody but the upper class with such a term as "refined education".
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
And so, it was usually the upper classes in Washington's time who had refined educations, and that is the distinction he makes in his paragraph. He therefore sees religion more as a tool for a shortcut to morality for the working class
; that doesn't mean he doesn't personally believe, just that he's not worried about imposing it on the upper class, or the ruling class, who can function morally without it.
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
@yggsdrasil1 Well, Washington wasn't engaged in class warfare like the Left is today. Washington didn't think the "upper class" could achieve morality without religion and didn't think that the "working class" was somehow different. You're making Washington into some kind of Leftist thinking, class warfare, person he clearly wasn't. Im reading that paragraph over and over again and I don't see how u come up with this conclusion. I think its pretty clear to me what he actually meant.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
Let me try to come at it a little differently to be better understood--Washington names those of "refined education" as being those who would oppose his argument--he isn't saying, "Whatever may be the influence of cheap wine on vagabonds who read"; he is deliberately saying that it is certain members of the upper class who find morality to be possible without religion; not just any "intellectual" as we thing of them now...
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
With respect, you're the one who made 'minds of a peculiar structure' synonymous with intellectual... I went along with it but only to the extent that I see more of a sense of respect in Washington's phrasing. Plus, he's saying religion is good for a "national" morality, not necessarily required for individuals. The combination of respect for refinement (though perhaps regretful) and convenience for the masses equals tolerance of upper class secularism and skepticism of lower class secularism.
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
@yggsdrasil1 U bring in secularism, why? There is nothing secular about what Washington is saying in that paragraph. Washington was far from a secular person.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
With regard to your dissection of the paragraph, I disagree with your interpretation of its meaning. I don't agree that he is just saying whatever "...an intellectual might think." I think he is saying that though secularism results from a strange combination of mind and education, it's impractical to apply it to the nation as a whole (the masses). But he is not implying that, though strange, these "refined" folks are less moral as individuals (he is not 'negative' toward their own morality).
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
With all due respect, I don't see how you gather that from that paragraph. If you know Washington as I do, he was a very honest, religious, and seen himself as more of a common man than an intellectual. He didn't want to do the things he did, he did not want to be the Commander-in-Cheif of the Continental Army, President of Constitutional Convention, President of the U.S., but he knew he had to for his country. He wanted to live a normal life at his ranch. Also,....
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Also with respect, I would say I agree that Washington was one of the best figures of his time. He was ahead of his time on issues of race, class, warfare and government. Yet, he was still a product of his time and I would argue that the paragraph does not prove he wanted a Christian nation, but rather that he thought there were those whose minds could be moral without religion (those of "peculiar mind") and those who were better when helped to be moral through religious belief.
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
@yggsdrasil1 I never said this speech did say he wanted a Christian nation. The only thing the speech proves is that Washington's view that religion and morality was essential to good government. I think you are misunderstanding what Washington is saying. Yes, u are right he is referring to intellectuals when he says "minds of peculiar structure". What he is actually saying is despite what intellectuals may think, experience and reason both prove that morality cannot stand without religion.
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
With regard to the paragraph where Washington mentions "minds of peculiar structure", he is saying the the well educated can be moral without religion, but for the masses, it's much easier to justify morality with religion. It is a somewhat elitist approach to education. It carries echoes of Machiavelli and portents of Marx. He is saying religion is a useful opiate, but it's okay for his aristocratic buddies of peculiar minds to base their ethics on non-religious beliefs.
yggsdrasil1 10 months ago
@yggsdrasil1 With all due respect, I don't see how you gather that from that paragraph. If you know Washington as I do, he was a very honest, religious, and seen himself as more of a common man than an intellectual. He didn't want to do the things he did, he did not want to be the Commander-in-Cheif of the Continental Army, President of Constitutional Convention, President of the U.S., but he knew he had to for his country. He wanted to live a normal life at his ranch. Also,....
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
@yggsdrasil1 ..... If you dissect the paragraph. "And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion." - With caution, lets talk about if morality can be achieved without religion. "Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure,"- No matter what any intellectual might think. "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
bRizzle2009100 10 months ago
Do you think someone who cuts out all of the supernatural parts of the Bible with scissors, and denies the divinity of Jesus, is a Christian? Also, the English version of the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified by the Congress and signed by John Adams. If Adams were a strong Christian and believed that the US WAS a Christian nation, would he have signed a document that said otherwise? I don't think so. How is "Nature's God" a reference to the god of the Bible? It seems like a reference to deisms god.
alexwhite71 11 months ago
@alexwhite71 Yes, despite the attempts to make them Christian, several were Deists. If you scroll past the latest comments between bRizzle and I, you will find a great deal that proves his view is quite mistaken and the flaws of his logic and actual grasp of the reality of American and/or general history is, at best, questionable.
seekertrth 11 months ago
"Moses,Eleazar the priest,and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?"he demanded" ~Small break (2-3 lines) to accomodat space constraints.~
"...Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live;you may keep them for yourselves.
seekertrth 11 months ago
u don't deal w/ reality/facts. 1st u say Jefferson + Franklin r Christian,I prove them Diests,u say that's "unorthodox" Christianity,I prove it's not,u say it doesn't matter; it only mattered when you either lied or had no idea what u were talking about + it supported your case. I provide everything from quotes from Jefferson,Franklin,Clay,Madison and the Constitution to the fact that personal religious views differ from political ones + u don't deal w/ it. u r mentally ill,fool or other defect
seekertrth 11 months ago
@seekertrth “Proclaim Liberty throughout all the Land unto all the inhabitants thereof.” Do u know where this comes from and the story behind it?
bRizzle2009100 11 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Leviticus, 25:10; a couple variations; "Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan." "Set this year apart as holy, a time to proclaim freedom throughout the land for all who live there. It will be a jubilee year for you, when each of you may return to the land that belonged to your ancestors and return to your own clan."
seekertrth 11 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 "...And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family." "Set apart the fiftieth year as holy, and proclaim liberty to everyone living in the land. This is your jubilee year. Every slave will be freed in order to return to his property and to his family
seekertrth 11 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 I assume u don't eat shrimp,clams,lobster or pick/choose parts.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas,and in the rivers,of all that move in the waters,and of any living thing which is in the waters,they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
seekertrth 11 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 Lots of things in the bible:
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
seekertrth 11 months ago
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@bRizzle2009100 (Deuteronomy 20:10-14, part 1) "As you approach a town to attack it,first offer its people terms for peace.If they accept your terms and open the gates to you,then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight,you must attack the town.
seekertrth 11 months ago