When I was in Bujinkan my instructor told us, if I remember well, that ninjas might have used normal swords, old used swords from battlefields but shortened, breaking the point, to make them more... handy. With the cutting edge a bit damaged so when cutting it would damage more. But now thinking of it they could use also a wakizashi if needed a shorter sword...
Its possible they bought the Korean swords in the sengoku period although as for China I haven't found anything. I will keep looking :D awesome video I love all of your videos. I am only ten years old and I am a fan of ninjutsu! I heard you wanted to ask Hatsumi for his historical scrolls for historical evidence have you done so?
@TSOAS2008 I guess some want ninjutsu secret although you don't support Masaaki Hatsumi he is still the only Soke who would know Togakure so I suggest getting information from him.
1)I know from a 1970's Black Belt mag. I have somewhere that Koreans uesd, among other styles, a striaght sword. It, however, had an oval guard. 2) square tsubas are to make, ie lower cost, just cut a square from sheet metal and punch a hole for the blade. not hard. it would lack the fine decoration of samurai swords, but it also would not identify the sword to it's owner. 3) In European art many weapons that have no examples known to exist, cheep weapons get used and broken.& dont survive
From the way I interpreted you said it was a straight sword that was made from a spear. A spear that is cut down is still a spear, no point in relating it to a ninja sword right?
@TSOAS2008 it may have been called a katana but we know it isn't right? Its a chopped up spear that was used as a sword, I believe that would be the most accurate way to define it.
@TheHumbleNinja yes, that is correct, but when the samurai used it it was a sword, when he asked someone to get it, it was a sword, when it was used in any way it was a sword. what is the end point? I am confused are you saying that it was not a sword in use because they cut it from a spear? because that is not correct. it was a sword, its only when a museum took it out of the mounts that they then put it back as spear, either way it shows these square guard swords existed before hayes/okuse
@TSOAS2008 oh ok i got it now, It just seemed to me that It was a modified spear but, they modified it intending on making a sword, so it becomes something different. You get where im coming from?
So when Hayes returned to the US he either made/crafted or had someone make what we have called a "ninja to"and it caught from there? A straight bladed sword with a square tsuba and really short, 2 ft say or less?
@NovaScotiaNewfie it appears he saw it in Japan, took a liking too it and yes brought it back. I think it only got popular as it appeared in his books? I am not sure he intended it to gain popularity?
@oooNaturalOneooo.Makes sence to me pal.The prob is dean and buffon go into tiny details and take us away frm the point,they say a 2mm frm straight sword is not a straight sword?If a wheel is,nt totaly round cause its off at one point by 0.5mm does that mean it is'nt a wheel anymore.Come on.Lets have some common sence instead of arguing over tiny japanese termanoligy points..
Using a broken spear to produce a sword ( recycling) only makes sense. Sure it MAY not or may have been same quality as a katana but really. The idea is to recyle broken weapons in to a usable weapon that is also disposable. Its cost effective and practical. I'm sure a battle field would be full of blades from broken spears and a few varies swords... why not put them to use?
Part 4 will be interesting.Poof'ont.Question-If a straight sword was artistic impression and there were also curved swords in that book.Where did the artist get the idea of a straight,square tsuba sword from?A dream the night before?Stephen hayes gone back in time?Or a sword that was known of and used?
you know what I like about all your videos is that everytime I Watch them I learn something new lol and its funny how you start every video with, " hi my name is anothony cummins if you dont already know..."
Make a light,portable sword.Used as a tool just like any other bad to medium quality weapon or item.Flight not fight was the idea to survive,if cornered in woods by a dozen samuria,metsubushi or smoke would be more affective than fighting with a larger enemy.In an enclosed castle coriddor,kama would be more effective than a ninjato.I dont they used the sword as a main weapon the way samuria did,it was a disposable weapon.
@jonchrismaryjustin,Very well said.The prob is people that dont agree go into such small points about terminoligy,language etc that it takes the conversation away from common sense and into arguments.The answer as normal,is simply to simplify.What would you do if you were a shinobi with the tools at hand,lack of money etc?..
I don't understand the debate. Sword were captured by those who didn't have one. It is a common teaching to let your enemy carry your weapons, Swords made from spears? yes, sword patterned after Chinese swords, sure. Ninja adapted , It's what was done. A "modified" sword is a Ninja-to it was modified to do more that just be a weapon. Remember they were not just weapons, they were tools, capable of doing multiple jobs. Lets not be so...."traditional".
At about the 6:30 mark you say you have a gap from 1860 to 1960? But then you show it from the manual from the 16th Century? I looked at Buffon's video and what I noticed was that it appears that one of the images was a reprint of the same image shown early on in his video except it appears to have been deliberately modified (the sword on the ground in one becomes straight-bladed with a square guard) or it's been recopied.
@sonicredcr.If its based on a sword wheres the real sword?Id love to go as well.Dont like the tourist thing though and would prob come back at night and have a look around Lol.This is the prob were all finding with shinobi history.Even museums and goverment in japan have dubious ninja items,and dont get me started on hatsumi's items.So its a case of slowly wade'in through lies and almost truths.At the root of all those always seems to be money.
Was it more like the hayes sword than we thought?Or nothing like it?Antonys findings are invaluble but it shows thehayes type sword was in existance before hayes but how far back as its only if the shinobi used it we are interested in?Anyone any proof of what they used as a sword during the war periods?
So what is everyones point here cause all previous chats have decended into arguments?Did the ninja use good quality swords?Bad quality swords or dont know were just starting to find out?I go with the latter.
A samuria woukd rather die than hand his sword over but a shinobi would throw it at you and run,his main aim was getting back to base with the info,a samurai would pickit up,laugh at the quality and throw it away or break it.Lets get all,inc the iga museum ninja-to carbon dated so we can say for sure there is NO sword the shinobi used in existance and start frm there.
Whats interesting is that there is NO account that i know of,of a ninja-to being handed down threw generations.Hatsumi's is prob under 50 yrs old if that.If he's a 34th grandmaster then lets get his sword carbon dated.I suspect,just suspect so correct me if im wrong that shinobi used there ninja-to as just another tool of the trade.Begged,stole and borrowed and re-made frm katana or spear or whatever.
@MrMmafan111 I don't know if it's true or not but I've heard that the actual sword in the Iga museum isn't even made of metal it's a bamboo copy. Not to say it's not based on an actual sword(i think it probably is). I think everything in there is a reproduction. I'd love to go there someday.
@sonicredcr,Lol,i didnt say that did i?Yes iga museum does'nt take hatsumi seriously(does any1 with half a brain)Do we agree before hayes could have been around there was a short,almost straight,chisel tipped sword available that could have been 1 sword the shinobi used?If i was going into tight corridors and crawling,climbing on a mission,id take 1 if avaialble.
The japanese book Ninja and Ninjutsu features many pics of the ninjato also, altough I can't read japanese so I don't know what the text says about them. Houzan Suzuki has a video where he flips through most of the book, you may be able to see it there. Be it a mythical weapon or not, it had to have come from somewhere and I definately don't think Hayes is the culprit
The japanese book Ninja and Ninjutsu features many pics of the ninjato also, altough I can't read japanese so I don't know what the text says about them. Houzan Suzuki has a video where he flips through most of the book, you may be able to see it there.
@MrMmafan111 I highly doubt Stephen Hayes has any influence over the Iga Ninja Museum, especially since they don't even recognize Hatsumi as being legit.
I can't believe this argument is lasting this long. The point Antony is trying to make is not that hard to understand, even from the first vid. By looking at the comments Buffon made on Dean's vid I see what he is worried about but I don't think that is the case. I hope everyone can move forward soon, cause this is really ridiculous.
@ninjaplease10,Hi.I mean did the technique of stepping on the guard to gain u height technique exist during shinobi peroid?Is there proof of this as i dont know if its in any scrolls or shoninki etc.
To every1,do we agree a square tsuba and almost straight shorter than katana sword existed,carried by samurai foot soldiers,with saya longer than the sword around the war'in period?
@shigakusa1336,Correct mate,the prob is these guy say the sword you speak of did not exist?Pre hayes,even with all the evidance.So they disagree with ur statement,me and antony agree with it.
Yeah well said,its one of the swords they prob used,but Hatsumi supporters are saying a shinobi never used one EVER!and if so it was'nt a straight hayes sword cause its .5 of a mm out?Plus it never existed pre hayes so how could it despite the evidence antony shows that it did exist.Thats the prob.
EVERYONE : Can someone explain what the fighting is about ? TSOAS is simply saying that the myth of the ninja-to is based on a real sword--- and this is logical, as all myths are based on SOMETHING historical. He is just asking how did the real sword TURN INTO the myth ? What is the issue here ? TSOAS did not say that the sword is a ninja-to. He said it was more than likely the origin of the myth. He is saying Ninja-To is a myth.,
@diargo2001,so were coming back to, If its .5 of a mill off straight then its not straight arguement,you really do grip at straws as ur goin downhill dont ya.Same saya,square tsuba and a mill or 2 off straight,proved pre hayes and all you can say is anything off pure straight is'nt straight..
Omg,you call him dyslexic then say"noy trying to be rude"!?Hope my spelling is ok with you as you cant speak the truth if ur spelling is wrong can you?Grow up.What age are you guys?
My add is johntmma@hotmail.co.uk send me ur e-mail add or messanger add and i'll reply,incase you dont want to put it on here.Think i could help you and you me..John.
@tsaos2008,Sonthat that then antony,they cant answer.Glad you came on as i was verbaly fighting them all for a while,thought id find people supporting you and found hatsumi supporters down my throat.
Ok i'll anser it,yes it did exist before hayes.So hayes did'nt make it completely up,maybe 2mm out,and i know 2mm is important in jap history(snore,snore)but the basic facts are there.So did hayes completely make it up?He could'nt have.
@tsoas,Antony im on ur side Lol,i was being sarcastic about ur comment earlier about not know wether they were winding you up or just stupid,i was saying the latter Lol..Flippin hek mate dont attack ur mates i agree hayes could'nt have gone in the tardis.
Someone has just said our trsnaltion is wrong, if this is the case provide the alternative translation. if you do not do this our translation stands. do not comment on here without back up. Lies are starting to be used. This channel is for investigation. not lies. please stick to the rules. anyone lying will be removed.
Antony does'nt need to answer my question,i will.The flippin vid shows a straight bladed,square tsuba sword linked to shinobi was there prior steven hayes?
@MrMmafan111 you will find in the video i say i could not find a straight sword, the closest is in teh museum with about a 2mm diffence. So the question was how did this iconic sword get attached to the ninja. i would love for you to actually watch the video? do you disagree that is what i said? really? go back and check. Did the magazine from 83 get inspired by hayes, the first straight blade with hayes is 81, the mag is 83. was he that famous that japan was copying from a gaijin? really?
@MrMmafan111 oh dear, watch the video again MrMmafan. The video does not show a straight sword with a square tsuba with links to the shinobi at all, if it did we wouldn't be having this discussion! It's simple really.
There are swords with 'square shaped' tsuba. Some with shorter lengths have been attributed to shinobi etc. They are curved blades. The mention of nagimaki naoshi has little relation to shinobi.
@tsoas2008.Antony the answer is stupid,if u spell something out in the most basic terms and show evidence but some1 does'nt get it,then stupid it is.Fancy a chat where we might learn something?
@MrMmafan111 what? ask a question that is to do with the video. do you have an alternative translation of the text. do you have proof that hayes time traveled and inserted the square tsuba and the take away point in history, if you do not, i do not think you have much to teach. get back to the 100 year gap.
Antony, I find it strange that you feel the need to refer to people as stupid, question their understanding of english, the idea of concepts and theories. You may not realise this but doing so whilst taking part in a discussion is actually offensive and insulting. At any point have buffoon, dean, stevegreenfield or myself labelled you as stupid? We have questionned your knowledge on specific topics but not actually measured at you as an insult. Try to rise above it.
@diargo2001 because they seem to avoid the basic question. which you yourself are doing. Answer this. did any form of iconic ninja sword exist in japan in teh 1960s. yes or no. no tricks. did it? you keep avoiding this simple truth time and time again. so i AM questioning you ability to read. yes.
@TSOAS2008 thats is rich coming from a dyslexic. I can read just fine, as well as utilise correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. Now I didn't want to be rude but you have dragged me down. A curved blade, with a 'square shaped' tsuba, that is shorter than the normal length katana has been attributed to the 'ninja' prior to the 'Hayes-ninjato'.Yes. That has never been disputed, the assertion that it is a straight blade has. So i suggest that YOU spend some time reading over the comments/posts.
1) The iconic STRAIGHT ninja sword as alleged to have been 'attached' to Mr Hayes did or did not exist in the historical record . So, antony do you as Mr Mmafan says you do in the video, admit that in fact this particular blade did not exist in teh historical record
2) whether or not there was a sword, generally attached to the ninja image with qualities in common throughout literature , existed prior to Mr Hayes
@stevegreenfield the straight sword according to nagayamas drawings, an 1800's picture (many of them) and a 1600's quote. What do we belive a japanese specialist and a samurai at the time or you, a guy no one knows. Bit too much do you not think.
Nagayamas drawing -at that scale any degree or sori is going to be impercetible , 1800s picture - you know there were other editions of the same work that didnt have the blades as straight , 1600s quote as a number of people have pointed out that phrase can mean other things. The debate on point 2 would actually have been an interesting one, but although you accuse us all of an agenda, you as the 'accademic' and ;historian' seem to the one who clings to his theory evidence to the contrary.
@TSOAS2008 YOu have said on facebook that people run away from debating with you because you have the 'truth' . perhaps you should consider that the reason people 'give up' is because you dont debate , you cling to your theories and despite any evidence to the contrary you 'rationalise' things in order to support your own world view , whether this is misinterpreting or adding to quotes from books or even arguing that a curve is straight. that is why, and that is why people give up
@stevegreenfield,watch the vid again,Antony openly admits that it goes against his previous findings but for the sake of truth he admits he was wrong.!?
'Did there exist a sword which was conected to the ninja with a square tsuba before Hayes appears. ' will you agree that this is actually a completely different question that you posed in your first video, then the debate can actually move forward. And further admit that what you argued for in the first video of whether the 'hayes' straight balded chisel tipped ninjato didnt actually exist in the historical record
But this happens antony as you know when ur a truth finder,bruce lee,helio gracie and others went threw it.If you find an edo or before period with a ninja-to antique or pic,almost exact as hayes says,they will say its 1-2mm out so its not a straight ninja-to.
@tsoas2008,Antony ur head must be burst mate.These people are dodj'in fact,going back to unimportant point and just generaly argue'in for the sake of it.I came on just to say i agree with ur findings and got the lot of them down my throat!?
@MrMmafan111 I think i will stop answering now. It is clear that either they are just avoiding teh issue or they are stupid. I am not sure whichl. Hayes can not time travel but they seem to think he can? Not sure how that works. But i agree with you. They just can not see the point, they are finding it difficult to see iconic image 1960's, same image in 1847, need a conection. Something to do with hayes? the world has gone mad! :)
Yes I do know that they are not the same thing that is why I used the term Taijutsu for the general practice of the affiliated arts of the xkans. But within the dojo you think he should alert people to have the specific getup for when they may practice 'ninjutsu' based techniques? They would be training in the well lit, clean floor, tatami matted dojo for the most part...or do you propose that an 80 year old man take them for romps around outside dressed 'historically accurately' in the dark?
@diargo2001 no one said training. stop going back to it. When hatsumi in his books in the 70's 80's goes and hides a s "ninja" he wears karate suits with modern tabi, just like in teh comics. only you seem to not understand this. Is the sword in teh video a possible origin for the ninja to? the one hatsumi talks about in the 60's mag. I will stop answering soon if you do not answer me.
@TSOAS2008 I think your best bet as to where Stephen Hayes got the image/inspiration of the ninjato that he is affiliated with would be to interrogate him : ). It is really conjecture that it precedes him, being that there are no images of Hatsumi sensei with one, and the quote that is attributed to him is in Hayes book on the traditions and history as opposed to Hatsumi himself. There are no actual 'Hayes' like ninjato swords pre 30 years, there are similar but they are different weapons.
@diargo2001 i think really have missed the entire point of this video. You really have. In the most simple term i can think of: Did there exist a sword which was conected to the ninja with a square tsuba before Hayes appears. Yes, 1960's. It is an iconic image used in 60's Japanese comics. WHere did it come from as Hayes was no there in the 60's. Why are we back to hayes. Hayes was not there in teh 60's. why are you not understanding this most simple point. he does not have magic power.
@TSOAS200 there is a sword utilised by the ninja that has a 'square shaped' tsuba... I 'think' there is. I haven't seen an actual square for the tsuba but they are generally close to that shape at least. However your straight sword is not the same sword that was utilised by the ninja. Nor were they affiliated with them prior to Hayes. However you are complaining about semantics and small details, but the intricacies of japanese weaponry are fundamentally concerned with those kind of details.
@TSOAS2008 perhaps he followed your guidelines for the practice of real ninjutsu and instead of wearing the equivalent of a t shirt and loose fitting bottoms he wore his old training gi etc : )
@TSOAS2008 Hi at 05:00 into the vid why are the lines connecting the 'top' end of the handle to the tip? i.e. the cutting surface Usually the line would go from the tip along the 'spine' end of the sword to the end of the handle? The image is not too clear. But doing it the way you 'suppresses' the curvature by crossing the sword (I'm using simple terminology so that you understand which parts I'm referring to)
@diargo2001 you guys will try anything. Ok, if you like hayes changed it from 3mm to 6 mm, someone arest him. When will you answer my point of the video? you are not intersted in history are you. you just wish to argue alot. Answer the question in teh video. Why is there an iconic ninja sword and why does hatsumi support it in teh 60s. straight or nearly straight it is a ninja sword to hatsumi. yet no ninja sword exists? or is it a words issue. get to the point.
@TSOAS2008 if Mr Hayes changed it from 3mm to 6mm sori it would still be a curved blade not straight.
Basic questions then antony
1) Was the premise of your first video to demonstrate the existance of the STRAIGHT blade square tsuba sword in history - yes or no
2) If yes, do you think that by producing examples of the curved blades which you have openly admit have sorry whether it is 1mm or more , you are supporting the existance of that particular sword - yes or no
@stevegreenfield my mistake, 1) Was the premise of your first video to demonstarte the existance of the straight blade square tsuba 'ninja sword' in history yes or no
My fault , i wish to make this exact as it is on your first video
@TSOAS2008 Actually I'm very much interested in history. 1) Hayes produced the 'straight, chiseled tip, square tsuba' ninja sword, goes to america then part of the american ninja craze so his sword was associated with ninjutsu. 2) which is very different to the associated swords of the bujinkan xkans, Hatsumi's images. You haven't produced a direct quote/image from Hatsumi, Manaka sensei etc regarding authentic use of the 'hayes ninjato'
@diargo2001 the chisel tip existed in Japan before hayes, are you telling me that type of tip never existed? i did not know that stephen hayes made up a sword tip? Is this true? he made a new tip shape never in history seen? Or do you mean that he shows a photo in his book of an iconic ninja sword that happenes to be straight as appose to nearly or almost straight.
@TSOAS2008 I didn't say he developed that technique nor was he the first to utilise it. Don't put words in my 'mouth' use the words/quotes as they are written. The above post is false. I listed the features of the sword that is affiliated with Hayes ninjato with which 'everyone in the west associates with the ninja sword' I believe is the phrase you used in previous vid discussion.
@TSOAS2008 then you totaly misunderstand the video. even though i have explained it in the easiest terms. Maybe this is not teh video you should be commenting on. this is a differnt topic to the one you are talking about. I am sorry you do not understand but teh video is very, very simple.
@stevegreenfield no, it is said that togakure members and hatsumi dressed in the comicimage of a ninja, black with the full suit. Guys when are you going to get the pont of the video? you are really boring. Its in a million pictures with hatsumi in a black suit
@diargo2001 the image of a ninja. But its more about being a thief. But i am not arguing that that is not correct. I argue that teh image is more correct. you should see my videos. I am in full support. What i said was that Bujinkan members who do research say the image is false yet the same people ignore that hatsumi uses it. Plus his "Karate" gi is not the image you are talking about. That is Igabakama, hatsumi wears a martial arts uniform. two very seperate clothes.
@TSOAS2008 You think people should attend training in Igabakama for taijutsu practice? The black karate gi is just easier, cheaper, versatile for training purposes, or am I completely missing a topic, if you have a vid on it whats the title?
@diargo2001 nope i think when hatsumi dresses up and plays ninja he should not follow the steryotpe, no one said anything about Taijutsu, we are talking about ninjutsu. Do you know they are not teh same thing. Is the sword in teh video a possible origin for teh iconic ninja sword? Yes or no?
@TSOAS2008 You think people should attend training in Igabakama for taijutsu practice? The black karate gi is just easier, cheaper, versatile for training purposes, or am I completely missing a topic, if you have a vid on it whats the title? There are images from a while back of them training in white gi's, it's just practical and cheap!
the point of this series of videos on the ninja sword, was as i quote to show whether ' the straight bladed square guarded' ninja sword existed in history - that was the opening of video number one. you then went on and sword two ninjato in chokuto form - that is the opening remarks on what you were aiming to show. You have not demonstrated this , and what you found and admitted to finding were swords with a curve slight or otherwise , therefore you did not prove it existance
And hatsumi has been found to contradict himself and downright lie.No square tsuba existed he said while a pic of a well known ninja(?)climbing the castle wall in adams book clearly shows a square tsuba.Would u agree his statments dont match up with fact?
@MrMmafan111 they always ignore that. I have shown the Togakure to be full of lies. See my series but they brush over it. Then when you point out the ninja suit does not exist but hatsumi is wearing one they just ignore you, and when you point out that they are wearing sqaure sword handles and maybe a straight blade they say artistic impression. It is more cult then cult. Hatsumi dresses as a ninja from comics, look at teh orange medieval outfit he wears, its from a comic
@TSOAS2008 Love this, 'it's from a comic' the evidence you have attempted to back up your position of a 'ninja sword' have been comic images : ) either they are valid or they aren't... It's like your argument that authentic ninjutsu is from the scrolls but then point that some of the things that takamatsu/hatsumi have done are 'lifted' from the the bansenshukai/shoninki.. : )
@MrMmafan111 Cool, can we have the quote of when that happened? I'm not entirely sure but I think the Adam's book was considered a little suspect in terms of the images of the ninja climbing the castle.... in that it was orchestrated.
@stevegreenfield,sure i agree steve.Its interesting but people will always get caught up in little details.Im not saying the hayes sword has been found and was used,just something more like it than what we thought.2-3mm away from straight but diff tip.He did'nt get it that wrong.
@MrMmafan111 but is history, its the little details that are important, and when the suppositionis that a straight bladed square tsuba sword existed, and you provide curved ones, its wrong. The blade geometry and general shape that is presented as the 80s ninjato differs from what antony has presented as his evidence, if you do not believe such details are important in regards to nihontou , please look at the book antony is citeing his reference from then argue that point
He includes the definition in the videos - a straight sword. And in the fist video he states as attributed to Mr Hayes. That sword was of a reasonably specific design , and if you look at the ninjato sold at that time they were of chukoto form with chisel tip.
I am not saying a sword didnt exist , I am saying as defined the 'straight bladed ninjato ' hasnt been found. i am saying that the blades that are presented are curved. Do you agree , that is something has a curve , it isnt straight?
@stevegreenfield,But he is'nt saying that?All it is,is a few mm away from straight and no chisel tip,if u denied the existance of spears and one was found but 2mm from straight would you say it was'nt a spear just a big bow to shoot arrows?.
@stevegreenfield and toth.Steve if u have the book how many pics have a square tsuba and look a few mill's from straight?Over half a dozen!Hatsumi denies these existed?
Yes,understand what ur saying,but the argument was that,lets call it mr hayes sword has been proven to be false because it was most prob a short katana with large handle and round tsuba and norm size saya,but now were finding it was closer to mr hayes sword than we thought.
@MrMmafan111 not at all thats not the argument. Antony said he had found the iconic ninja sword attributed to Mr Hayes in history. Now the argument being put forth by antony is that those not agreeing with him are arguing on semantics, that straighter isnt straight etc, but when you are talkign about japanese blades 1 or 5 or 15mm sori still indicates a curve, and a chokuto , which is what the form of the iconic sword was very specific in is place in history
@MrMmafan111 also no one contested the existence of nagamaki naoshi , or even the appearance of curved swords , some with square tuba , some with round some with mokko in japanese books prior to Mr Hayes, most of us arguing here have all those books by fujita or nawa or Hatsumi sensei or access to copies, some of us own japanese swords. The problem is that antony still does not see that finding a sword with a shallow sori does not mean you found a chukoto chisel tip 'ninja'blade.
so when you talk of str4aight what you mean is curved , is that what you are saying, straight means staright, a few mm of sori on the muni side equates to a curve, both on the mune/shinogi and at the ha , cutting edge. that means its not straight, does it not. The argument was that the 'straight' ninja sword attributed to Mr Hayes had been found, it was specifically straight , not curved , not even a few mm , it was straight with a straight blade shape in the form of a chokuto
a straight sword with a few mm curve is not a straight sword, and yes in japanese blades it matters a lot. The'iconic' ninja sword that is attributed in this argument to Mr Hayes , and if you dont believe me on its form have a check in the magazines, was a chukuto form , i.e. a staright blade form , that has not been demonstrated. you are saying you have found a straight sword, the swords such as the nagamaki naoshi and the ones in Hatsumi senseis books that are shown all have a curve. yes or no
Im not saying a paul chen type ninjato existed,but a straight sword with a few mill curve and a square is type tsuba did exsist and were sometimes used.This is what ive found and antony is getting close to..
@hj firestarter,yeah mate-SLIGHT curve,maybe 1-2mm.The cheness has a round tsuba?The one hatsumi has is square,come on its square!Not totaly square but its square not round.Thanks for replyin nicely unlike toth boy.Im not attackin just truth finding.
@MrMmafan111 a nagamaki or naganata is not a spear , a yari is a spear , the terms attributed to them are different, their form is different , their use is different. they are different. what antony presented was a nagamaki naoshi, the book did not state a spear/yari was 'cut down' it stated a nagamaki was 'properly reshaped' into a katana or wakazashi.
again like I said what you think was straight was not if they used a spear and made a sword then it would be straight but it woud be double edged why whould you grind of the the ha on a spear to make a single edged blade ,the naginata was changed to use as katana as well as tachi they would have never been turned straight so whatever your babble about a 1-3 mm sori is BS
Straight bladed swords are in history around the shinobi era,they were not called ninja swords but used now and again by ninja.Thats what i and Antony seem to think.You agree?Cause Hatsumi does'nt.
@toth,You tellin me hatsumi agrees there was straight bladed,square tsube swords shinobi used but they wer'nt called ninja-to?So u are a bujinkan member i take it by not answering.
@toth,Spider boy?Is that cheek?So hayes says yes straight sword square tsuba,proof says yes,hatsumi says no then is photographed holding one!!Get my drift?.
@MrMmafan111 spider boy He denies ninjatou the term ,not the sword ,ninjatou is just a term used by japanese from noh theater to emphisize the shinobi thus commonly used
@toth,waitin?What was his one word answer?Ive spoken to him and he would rather not answer or get involved really cause he does'nt want to disrespect his teacher.He trained with both,meaning hatsumi has used straight,square tsuba ninja-to.
Would it not be a good idea to ask stephen hayes if he was trained by hatsumi with a straight,or next to straight ninja-to with a square tsuba or with a more curved version with a round tsuba that hatsumi uses today?
Good work Anthony.All lies lead back to Hatsumi,check out Andrew adams book Ninja the invisibe assasins Page 151.Hes standing there in close up with his ninja-to,the one he denies that existed,straight blade,square tsuba..
@MrMmafan111 I have my copy of "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins" right in front of me. Upon a closer look, the shinobigatana that Hatsumi Sensei is holding has a slight curvature to the blade, and the tsuba is in the mokko tsuba style. A modern equivalent would be the Cheness Oniyuri. Definitely not the stereotypical ninja-to.
When I was in Bujinkan my instructor told us, if I remember well, that ninjas might have used normal swords, old used swords from battlefields but shortened, breaking the point, to make them more... handy. With the cutting edge a bit damaged so when cutting it would damage more. But now thinking of it they could use also a wakizashi if needed a shorter sword...
ablancok 1 month ago
Sooooo... I Can finally buy a "Practical ninja" from Hanwei without looking like a total idiot? XD
Ozzy2817 2 months ago
Its possible they bought the Korean swords in the sengoku period although as for China I haven't found anything. I will keep looking :D awesome video I love all of your videos. I am only ten years old and I am a fan of ninjutsu! I heard you wanted to ask Hatsumi for his historical scrolls for historical evidence have you done so?
ninjatarquin 4 months ago
@ninjatarquin many times, no one will show me anything!
TSOAS2008 4 months ago 4
@TSOAS2008 I guess some want ninjutsu secret although you don't support Masaaki Hatsumi he is still the only Soke who would know Togakure so I suggest getting information from him.
ninjatarquin 4 months ago
1)I know from a 1970's Black Belt mag. I have somewhere that Koreans uesd, among other styles, a striaght sword. It, however, had an oval guard. 2) square tsubas are to make, ie lower cost, just cut a square from sheet metal and punch a hole for the blade. not hard. it would lack the fine decoration of samurai swords, but it also would not identify the sword to it's owner. 3) In European art many weapons that have no examples known to exist, cheep weapons get used and broken.& dont survive
gerbilsmith 8 months ago
From the way I interpreted you said it was a straight sword that was made from a spear. A spear that is cut down is still a spear, no point in relating it to a ninja sword right?
TheHumbleNinja 1 year ago
@TheHumbleNinja but it was used as a sword, this is historical fact, used as Katana. mounted as katana and called katana.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 it may have been called a katana but we know it isn't right? Its a chopped up spear that was used as a sword, I believe that would be the most accurate way to define it.
TheHumbleNinja 1 year ago
@TheHumbleNinja yes, that is correct, but when the samurai used it it was a sword, when he asked someone to get it, it was a sword, when it was used in any way it was a sword. what is the end point? I am confused are you saying that it was not a sword in use because they cut it from a spear? because that is not correct. it was a sword, its only when a museum took it out of the mounts that they then put it back as spear, either way it shows these square guard swords existed before hayes/okuse
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 oh ok i got it now, It just seemed to me that It was a modified spear but, they modified it intending on making a sword, so it becomes something different. You get where im coming from?
TheHumbleNinja 1 year ago
@TheHumbleNinja to be honest, no lol. its a sword, not sure your point. ?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 lolol my point is I got it.
/end
TheHumbleNinja 1 year ago
@TheHumbleNinja hahahah, well that did not come across! hahah LOL.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
So when Hayes returned to the US he either made/crafted or had someone make what we have called a "ninja to"and it caught from there? A straight bladed sword with a square tsuba and really short, 2 ft say or less?
About 1/2 the length of a katana?
NovaScotiaNewfie 1 year ago
@NovaScotiaNewfie it appears he saw it in Japan, took a liking too it and yes brought it back. I think it only got popular as it appeared in his books? I am not sure he intended it to gain popularity?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@oooNaturalOneooo.Makes sence to me pal.The prob is dean and buffon go into tiny details and take us away frm the point,they say a 2mm frm straight sword is not a straight sword?If a wheel is,nt totaly round cause its off at one point by 0.5mm does that mean it is'nt a wheel anymore.Come on.Lets have some common sence instead of arguing over tiny japanese termanoligy points..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago 6
@MrMmafan111 agreed 100% it cleary exists before hayes and no one is even bothering about the acutal point at hand.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago 2
Using a broken spear to produce a sword ( recycling) only makes sense. Sure it MAY not or may have been same quality as a katana but really. The idea is to recyle broken weapons in to a usable weapon that is also disposable. Its cost effective and practical. I'm sure a battle field would be full of blades from broken spears and a few varies swords... why not put them to use?
o0oNaturalOneo0o 1 year ago 6
@karuhoutabi,you want to here him say shinobi and please,please,please.Sorry Ant...Lol.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago 2
Part 4 will be interesting.Poof'ont.Question-If a straight sword was artistic impression and there were also curved swords in that book.Where did the artist get the idea of a straight,square tsuba sword from?A dream the night before?Stephen hayes gone back in time?Or a sword that was known of and used?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
you know what I like about all your videos is that everytime I Watch them I learn something new lol and its funny how you start every video with, " hi my name is anothony cummins if you dont already know..."
kaoruhotarubi 1 year ago 4
Make a light,portable sword.Used as a tool just like any other bad to medium quality weapon or item.Flight not fight was the idea to survive,if cornered in woods by a dozen samuria,metsubushi or smoke would be more affective than fighting with a larger enemy.In an enclosed castle coriddor,kama would be more effective than a ninjato.I dont they used the sword as a main weapon the way samuria did,it was a disposable weapon.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@jonchrismaryjustin,Very well said.The prob is people that dont agree go into such small points about terminoligy,language etc that it takes the conversation away from common sense and into arguments.The answer as normal,is simply to simplify.What would you do if you were a shinobi with the tools at hand,lack of money etc?..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
I don't understand the debate. Sword were captured by those who didn't have one. It is a common teaching to let your enemy carry your weapons, Swords made from spears? yes, sword patterned after Chinese swords, sure. Ninja adapted , It's what was done. A "modified" sword is a Ninja-to it was modified to do more that just be a weapon. Remember they were not just weapons, they were tools, capable of doing multiple jobs. Lets not be so...."traditional".
jonchrismaryjustin12 1 year ago 2
@dooshtv,Hi.Explain what you meant and i'll answer,if it was in jest sorry and it was good natured so no probs but it went over my head..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
At about the 6:30 mark you say you have a gap from 1860 to 1960? But then you show it from the manual from the 16th Century? I looked at Buffon's video and what I noticed was that it appears that one of the images was a reprint of the same image shown early on in his video except it appears to have been deliberately modified (the sword on the ground in one becomes straight-bladed with a square guard) or it's been recopied.
AnGobh 1 year ago
@sonicredcr.If its based on a sword wheres the real sword?Id love to go as well.Dont like the tourist thing though and would prob come back at night and have a look around Lol.This is the prob were all finding with shinobi history.Even museums and goverment in japan have dubious ninja items,and dont get me started on hatsumi's items.So its a case of slowly wade'in through lies and almost truths.At the root of all those always seems to be money.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Was it more like the hayes sword than we thought?Or nothing like it?Antonys findings are invaluble but it shows thehayes type sword was in existance before hayes but how far back as its only if the shinobi used it we are interested in?Anyone any proof of what they used as a sword during the war periods?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 WOW dude where you get your info? LOL
Dooshtv 1 year ago
So what is everyones point here cause all previous chats have decended into arguments?Did the ninja use good quality swords?Bad quality swords or dont know were just starting to find out?I go with the latter.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
A samuria woukd rather die than hand his sword over but a shinobi would throw it at you and run,his main aim was getting back to base with the info,a samurai would pickit up,laugh at the quality and throw it away or break it.Lets get all,inc the iga museum ninja-to carbon dated so we can say for sure there is NO sword the shinobi used in existance and start frm there.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Whats interesting is that there is NO account that i know of,of a ninja-to being handed down threw generations.Hatsumi's is prob under 50 yrs old if that.If he's a 34th grandmaster then lets get his sword carbon dated.I suspect,just suspect so correct me if im wrong that shinobi used there ninja-to as just another tool of the trade.Begged,stole and borrowed and re-made frm katana or spear or whatever.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 I don't know if it's true or not but I've heard that the actual sword in the Iga museum isn't even made of metal it's a bamboo copy. Not to say it's not based on an actual sword(i think it probably is). I think everything in there is a reproduction. I'd love to go there someday.
sonicredcr 1 year ago 2
@sonicredcr,Lol,i didnt say that did i?Yes iga museum does'nt take hatsumi seriously(does any1 with half a brain)Do we agree before hayes could have been around there was a short,almost straight,chisel tipped sword available that could have been 1 sword the shinobi used?If i was going into tight corridors and crawling,climbing on a mission,id take 1 if avaialble.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
The japanese book Ninja and Ninjutsu features many pics of the ninjato also, altough I can't read japanese so I don't know what the text says about them. Houzan Suzuki has a video where he flips through most of the book, you may be able to see it there. Be it a mythical weapon or not, it had to have come from somewhere and I definately don't think Hayes is the culprit
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr Don Roley was arguing against the Hayes myth of the Ninja having to use crude swords in order to combat the oppressive Samurai.
That is the dispute. A "straight" Ninjato.
Everyone knows chokuto have existed in Japan.
BlackShinobiShozoku 1 year ago
The japanese book Ninja and Ninjutsu features many pics of the ninjato also, altough I can't read japanese so I don't know what the text says about them. Houzan Suzuki has a video where he flips through most of the book, you may be able to see it there.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
And that sword looks more like stephen hayes version than hatsumi's.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 I highly doubt Stephen Hayes has any influence over the Iga Ninja Museum, especially since they don't even recognize Hatsumi as being legit.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@Sonic,dont think they would either.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
I still can't understand why the Iga museum would display the swords if they are completely inaccurate? What purpose would that serve?
sonicredcr 1 year ago
It was'nt the shinobi's no1 prized weapon,just a tool of the trade.He did'nt rate 1 tool above another.Would a farmer keepmhis spade?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@ninjaplease,thought you were the guy thats been against antonys findings and being a bit of an arse?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 lol
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
@ninjaplease,you still here?..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 Yes mate. What's wrong?
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
Good stuff,So is it only people with all there mental qualifications present now Lol..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@ninjaplease,Come on man get a grip.Can all Hatsumi defenders plz do 1 so we can have a decent chat and hopefully learn something.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111. Agree
j2091957 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 Hatsumi defender?How did you arrive at that conclusion?
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
I can't believe this argument is lasting this long. The point Antony is trying to make is not that hard to understand, even from the first vid. By looking at the comments Buffon made on Dean's vid I see what he is worried about but I don't think that is the case. I hope everyone can move forward soon, cause this is really ridiculous.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@dean,mmacconn is correct and we know shinobi swords were of low quality..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@ninjaplease10,Hi.I mean did the technique of stepping on the guard to gain u height technique exist during shinobi peroid?Is there proof of this as i dont know if its in any scrolls or shoninki etc.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Ty Anthony! I appreciate the nature of how your going about this.
o0oNaturalOneo0o 1 year ago
To every1,do we agree a square tsuba and almost straight shorter than katana sword existed,carried by samurai foot soldiers,with saya longer than the sword around the war'in period?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@shigakusa1336,Correct mate,the prob is these guy say the sword you speak of did not exist?Pre hayes,even with all the evidance.So they disagree with ur statement,me and antony agree with it.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Yeah well said,its one of the swords they prob used,but Hatsumi supporters are saying a shinobi never used one EVER!and if so it was'nt a straight hayes sword cause its .5 of a mm out?Plus it never existed pre hayes so how could it despite the evidence antony shows that it did exist.Thats the prob.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Does Hatsumi train in brainwashing jutsu?Think ur under his spell,hope you enjoy giving him ur pocket £ from mum and dad Lol.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
EVERYONE : Can someone explain what the fighting is about ? TSOAS is simply saying that the myth of the ninja-to is based on a real sword--- and this is logical, as all myths are based on SOMETHING historical. He is just asking how did the real sword TURN INTO the myth ? What is the issue here ? TSOAS did not say that the sword is a ninja-to. He said it was more than likely the origin of the myth. He is saying Ninja-To is a myth.,
shigakusha1336 1 year ago 2
@diargo2001,so were coming back to, If its .5 of a mill off straight then its not straight arguement,you really do grip at straws as ur goin downhill dont ya.Same saya,square tsuba and a mill or 2 off straight,proved pre hayes and all you can say is anything off pure straight is'nt straight..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Omg,you call him dyslexic then say"noy trying to be rude"!?Hope my spelling is ok with you as you cant speak the truth if ur spelling is wrong can you?Grow up.What age are you guys?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@tsoas,Dont have ur e-mail add Antony.Never looked for it.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
My add is johntmma@hotmail.co.uk send me ur e-mail add or messanger add and i'll reply,incase you dont want to put it on here.Think i could help you and you me..John.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@tsaos2008,Sonthat that then antony,they cant answer.Glad you came on as i was verbaly fighting them all for a while,thought id find people supporting you and found hatsumi supporters down my throat.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago 2
@MrMmafan111 sorry mate i am on skype to christa. Can you email me the info? inbox me.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Ok i'll anser it,yes it did exist before hayes.So hayes did'nt make it completely up,maybe 2mm out,and i know 2mm is important in jap history(snore,snore)but the basic facts are there.So did hayes completely make it up?He could'nt have.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@tsoas2008.Lol,Thats ok Antony.I have no questions,just waiting on an answer to ur last yes or no question.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@tsoas,Antony im on ur side Lol,i was being sarcastic about ur comment earlier about not know wether they were winding you up or just stupid,i was saying the latter Lol..Flippin hek mate dont attack ur mates i agree hayes could'nt have gone in the tardis.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 sorry mate, i am confused between you and another. my mistake. sorry whats your questions.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Someone has just said our trsnaltion is wrong, if this is the case provide the alternative translation. if you do not do this our translation stands. do not comment on here without back up. Lies are starting to be used. This channel is for investigation. not lies. please stick to the rules. anyone lying will be removed.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Am i goin mad?Im reading ur questions and they dont even make sence?Who are you anyway?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Antony does'nt need to answer my question,i will.The flippin vid shows a straight bladed,square tsuba sword linked to shinobi was there prior steven hayes?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 you will find in the video i say i could not find a straight sword, the closest is in teh museum with about a 2mm diffence. So the question was how did this iconic sword get attached to the ninja. i would love for you to actually watch the video? do you disagree that is what i said? really? go back and check. Did the magazine from 83 get inspired by hayes, the first straight blade with hayes is 81, the mag is 83. was he that famous that japan was copying from a gaijin? really?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 oh dear, watch the video again MrMmafan. The video does not show a straight sword with a square tsuba with links to the shinobi at all, if it did we wouldn't be having this discussion! It's simple really.
There are swords with 'square shaped' tsuba. Some with shorter lengths have been attributed to shinobi etc. They are curved blades. The mention of nagimaki naoshi has little relation to shinobi.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 you do not seem to understand asin. no one is saying it is.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@tsoas2008.Antony the answer is stupid,if u spell something out in the most basic terms and show evidence but some1 does'nt get it,then stupid it is.Fancy a chat where we might learn something?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 what? ask a question that is to do with the video. do you have an alternative translation of the text. do you have proof that hayes time traveled and inserted the square tsuba and the take away point in history, if you do not, i do not think you have much to teach. get back to the 100 year gap.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Antony, I find it strange that you feel the need to refer to people as stupid, question their understanding of english, the idea of concepts and theories. You may not realise this but doing so whilst taking part in a discussion is actually offensive and insulting. At any point have buffoon, dean, stevegreenfield or myself labelled you as stupid? We have questionned your knowledge on specific topics but not actually measured at you as an insult. Try to rise above it.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 because they seem to avoid the basic question. which you yourself are doing. Answer this. did any form of iconic ninja sword exist in japan in teh 1960s. yes or no. no tricks. did it? you keep avoiding this simple truth time and time again. so i AM questioning you ability to read. yes.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 thats is rich coming from a dyslexic. I can read just fine, as well as utilise correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. Now I didn't want to be rude but you have dragged me down. A curved blade, with a 'square shaped' tsuba, that is shorter than the normal length katana has been attributed to the 'ninja' prior to the 'Hayes-ninjato'.Yes. That has never been disputed, the assertion that it is a straight blade has. So i suggest that YOU spend some time reading over the comments/posts.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@MrMmafan - ok , there are sepparate issues here
so If i have this correct
1) The iconic STRAIGHT ninja sword as alleged to have been 'attached' to Mr Hayes did or did not exist in the historical record . So, antony do you as Mr Mmafan says you do in the video, admit that in fact this particular blade did not exist in teh historical record
2) whether or not there was a sword, generally attached to the ninja image with qualities in common throughout literature , existed prior to Mr Hayes
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield the straight sword according to nagayamas drawings, an 1800's picture (many of them) and a 1600's quote. What do we belive a japanese specialist and a samurai at the time or you, a guy no one knows. Bit too much do you not think.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 What is the last post to stevegreenfield about? why not answer the questions he raised in his post to MrMmafan?
diargo2001 1 year ago
Nagayamas drawing -at that scale any degree or sori is going to be impercetible , 1800s picture - you know there were other editions of the same work that didnt have the blades as straight , 1600s quote as a number of people have pointed out that phrase can mean other things. The debate on point 2 would actually have been an interesting one, but although you accuse us all of an agenda, you as the 'accademic' and ;historian' seem to the one who clings to his theory evidence to the contrary.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 bring your alternative quote. and your explination of how it is different. you have not shown this. bring it here please.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 YOu have said on facebook that people run away from debating with you because you have the 'truth' . perhaps you should consider that the reason people 'give up' is because you dont debate , you cling to your theories and despite any evidence to the contrary you 'rationalise' things in order to support your own world view , whether this is misinterpreting or adding to quotes from books or even arguing that a curve is straight. that is why, and that is why people give up
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield,watch the vid again,Antony openly admits that it goes against his previous findings but for the sake of truth he admits he was wrong.!?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Even if it was chisel tipped,square tsuba and blow hole scabbard but 2mm from straight.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
'Did there exist a sword which was conected to the ninja with a square tsuba before Hayes appears. ' will you agree that this is actually a completely different question that you posed in your first video, then the debate can actually move forward. And further admit that what you argued for in the first video of whether the 'hayes' straight balded chisel tipped ninjato didnt actually exist in the historical record
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
But this happens antony as you know when ur a truth finder,bruce lee,helio gracie and others went threw it.If you find an edo or before period with a ninja-to antique or pic,almost exact as hayes says,they will say its 1-2mm out so its not a straight ninja-to.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@tsoas2008,Antony ur head must be burst mate.These people are dodj'in fact,going back to unimportant point and just generaly argue'in for the sake of it.I came on just to say i agree with ur findings and got the lot of them down my throat!?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago 2
@MrMmafan111 I think i will stop answering now. It is clear that either they are just avoiding teh issue or they are stupid. I am not sure whichl. Hayes can not time travel but they seem to think he can? Not sure how that works. But i agree with you. They just can not see the point, they are finding it difficult to see iconic image 1960's, same image in 1847, need a conection. Something to do with hayes? the world has gone mad! :)
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
Yes I do know that they are not the same thing that is why I used the term Taijutsu for the general practice of the affiliated arts of the xkans. But within the dojo you think he should alert people to have the specific getup for when they may practice 'ninjutsu' based techniques? They would be training in the well lit, clean floor, tatami matted dojo for the most part...or do you propose that an 80 year old man take them for romps around outside dressed 'historically accurately' in the dark?
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 no one said training. stop going back to it. When hatsumi in his books in the 70's 80's goes and hides a s "ninja" he wears karate suits with modern tabi, just like in teh comics. only you seem to not understand this. Is the sword in teh video a possible origin for the ninja to? the one hatsumi talks about in the 60's mag. I will stop answering soon if you do not answer me.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I think your best bet as to where Stephen Hayes got the image/inspiration of the ninjato that he is affiliated with would be to interrogate him : ). It is really conjecture that it precedes him, being that there are no images of Hatsumi sensei with one, and the quote that is attributed to him is in Hayes book on the traditions and history as opposed to Hatsumi himself. There are no actual 'Hayes' like ninjato swords pre 30 years, there are similar but they are different weapons.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 i think really have missed the entire point of this video. You really have. In the most simple term i can think of: Did there exist a sword which was conected to the ninja with a square tsuba before Hayes appears. Yes, 1960's. It is an iconic image used in 60's Japanese comics. WHere did it come from as Hayes was no there in the 60's. Why are we back to hayes. Hayes was not there in teh 60's. why are you not understanding this most simple point. he does not have magic power.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS200 there is a sword utilised by the ninja that has a 'square shaped' tsuba... I 'think' there is. I haven't seen an actual square for the tsuba but they are generally close to that shape at least. However your straight sword is not the same sword that was utilised by the ninja. Nor were they affiliated with them prior to Hayes. However you are complaining about semantics and small details, but the intricacies of japanese weaponry are fundamentally concerned with those kind of details.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 perhaps he followed your guidelines for the practice of real ninjutsu and instead of wearing the equivalent of a t shirt and loose fitting bottoms he wore his old training gi etc : )
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Hi at 05:00 into the vid why are the lines connecting the 'top' end of the handle to the tip? i.e. the cutting surface Usually the line would go from the tip along the 'spine' end of the sword to the end of the handle? The image is not too clear. But doing it the way you 'suppresses' the curvature by crossing the sword (I'm using simple terminology so that you understand which parts I'm referring to)
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 you guys will try anything. Ok, if you like hayes changed it from 3mm to 6 mm, someone arest him. When will you answer my point of the video? you are not intersted in history are you. you just wish to argue alot. Answer the question in teh video. Why is there an iconic ninja sword and why does hatsumi support it in teh 60s. straight or nearly straight it is a ninja sword to hatsumi. yet no ninja sword exists? or is it a words issue. get to the point.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 if Mr Hayes changed it from 3mm to 6mm sori it would still be a curved blade not straight.
Basic questions then antony
1) Was the premise of your first video to demonstrate the existance of the STRAIGHT blade square tsuba sword in history - yes or no
2) If yes, do you think that by producing examples of the curved blades which you have openly admit have sorry whether it is 1mm or more , you are supporting the existance of that particular sword - yes or no
Easy questions, but vital
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield my mistake, 1) Was the premise of your first video to demonstarte the existance of the straight blade square tsuba 'ninja sword' in history yes or no
My fault , i wish to make this exact as it is on your first video
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
i really should spellcheck before i post
the sorry in question 2 is sori - indicating curve
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Actually I'm very much interested in history. 1) Hayes produced the 'straight, chiseled tip, square tsuba' ninja sword, goes to america then part of the american ninja craze so his sword was associated with ninjutsu. 2) which is very different to the associated swords of the bujinkan xkans, Hatsumi's images. You haven't produced a direct quote/image from Hatsumi, Manaka sensei etc regarding authentic use of the 'hayes ninjato'
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 the chisel tip existed in Japan before hayes, are you telling me that type of tip never existed? i did not know that stephen hayes made up a sword tip? Is this true? he made a new tip shape never in history seen? Or do you mean that he shows a photo in his book of an iconic ninja sword that happenes to be straight as appose to nearly or almost straight.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 I didn't say he developed that technique nor was he the first to utilise it. Don't put words in my 'mouth' use the words/quotes as they are written. The above post is false. I listed the features of the sword that is affiliated with Hayes ninjato with which 'everyone in the west associates with the ninja sword' I believe is the phrase you used in previous vid discussion.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 then you totaly misunderstand the video. even though i have explained it in the easiest terms. Maybe this is not teh video you should be commenting on. this is a differnt topic to the one you are talking about. I am sorry you do not understand but teh video is very, very simple.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
tsoas2008 Spot on!stevegreebfield do you agree hatsumi has not told the truth about suits,weapons and his clans past history or not?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 you havent answered the question of where does hatsumi sensei say no squeare tsuba existed
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
ok, where does Hatsumi sensei say 'no square tsuba existed' - reference that quote
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield no, it is said that togakure members and hatsumi dressed in the comicimage of a ninja, black with the full suit. Guys when are you going to get the pont of the video? you are really boring. Its in a million pictures with hatsumi in a black suit
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 what like the Hokusai manga image...
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 the image of a ninja. But its more about being a thief. But i am not arguing that that is not correct. I argue that teh image is more correct. you should see my videos. I am in full support. What i said was that Bujinkan members who do research say the image is false yet the same people ignore that hatsumi uses it. Plus his "Karate" gi is not the image you are talking about. That is Igabakama, hatsumi wears a martial arts uniform. two very seperate clothes.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 You think people should attend training in Igabakama for taijutsu practice? The black karate gi is just easier, cheaper, versatile for training purposes, or am I completely missing a topic, if you have a vid on it whats the title?
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 nope i think when hatsumi dresses up and plays ninja he should not follow the steryotpe, no one said anything about Taijutsu, we are talking about ninjutsu. Do you know they are not teh same thing. Is the sword in teh video a possible origin for teh iconic ninja sword? Yes or no?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 You think people should attend training in Igabakama for taijutsu practice? The black karate gi is just easier, cheaper, versatile for training purposes, or am I completely missing a topic, if you have a vid on it whats the title? There are images from a while back of them training in white gi's, it's just practical and cheap!
diargo2001 1 year ago
the point of this series of videos on the ninja sword, was as i quote to show whether ' the straight bladed square guarded' ninja sword existed in history - that was the opening of video number one. you then went on and sword two ninjato in chokuto form - that is the opening remarks on what you were aiming to show. You have not demonstrated this , and what you found and admitted to finding were swords with a curve slight or otherwise , therefore you did not prove it existance
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
so when had you changed this from whether or not the straight sword with the square tsuba existed in history , to the ninja suit
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
And hatsumi has been found to contradict himself and downright lie.No square tsuba existed he said while a pic of a well known ninja(?)climbing the castle wall in adams book clearly shows a square tsuba.Would u agree his statments dont match up with fact?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 they always ignore that. I have shown the Togakure to be full of lies. See my series but they brush over it. Then when you point out the ninja suit does not exist but hatsumi is wearing one they just ignore you, and when you point out that they are wearing sqaure sword handles and maybe a straight blade they say artistic impression. It is more cult then cult. Hatsumi dresses as a ninja from comics, look at teh orange medieval outfit he wears, its from a comic
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Love this, 'it's from a comic' the evidence you have attempted to back up your position of a 'ninja sword' have been comic images : ) either they are valid or they aren't... It's like your argument that authentic ninjutsu is from the scrolls but then point that some of the things that takamatsu/hatsumi have done are 'lifted' from the the bansenshukai/shoninki.. : )
diargo2001 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 Cool, can we have the quote of when that happened? I'm not entirely sure but I think the Adam's book was considered a little suspect in terms of the images of the ninja climbing the castle.... in that it was orchestrated.
diargo2001 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield,sure i agree steve.Its interesting but people will always get caught up in little details.Im not saying the hayes sword has been found and was used,just something more like it than what we thought.2-3mm away from straight but diff tip.He did'nt get it that wrong.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 but is history, its the little details that are important, and when the suppositionis that a straight bladed square tsuba sword existed, and you provide curved ones, its wrong. The blade geometry and general shape that is presented as the 80s ninjato differs from what antony has presented as his evidence, if you do not believe such details are important in regards to nihontou , please look at the book antony is citeing his reference from then argue that point
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
He includes the definition in the videos - a straight sword. And in the fist video he states as attributed to Mr Hayes. That sword was of a reasonably specific design , and if you look at the ninjato sold at that time they were of chukoto form with chisel tip.
I am not saying a sword didnt exist , I am saying as defined the 'straight bladed ninjato ' hasnt been found. i am saying that the blades that are presented are curved. Do you agree , that is something has a curve , it isnt straight?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
atch?v=sZ3D3geffxI&feature=feedu
taihuu25go 1 year ago
@taihuu25go can wee start putting full links in, this watch thing only works sometimes.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield,But he is'nt saying that?All it is,is a few mm away from straight and no chisel tip,if u denied the existance of spears and one was found but 2mm from straight would you say it was'nt a spear just a big bow to shoot arrows?.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 sorry that question should read - If something has a curve, do you agree , by definition it isnt straight ?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
logically broken down
-The straight bladed ninja sword attributed to mr hayes has been bound in history
- Evidence presented illusitrates swords that are acknowledged to have a curve or sori of even 1mm
-Definition of straight from oxford dictionaries online
Straight -noun
1 a part of something that is not curved or bent
There for the ninja sword , that is being attributed to Mr Hayes, which is straight has not been demonstrated
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield and toth.Steve if u have the book how many pics have a square tsuba and look a few mill's from straight?Over half a dozen!Hatsumi denies these existed?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Does everyone disagree with antony's findings?Cause everyone seems to be disagree'in with them?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Yeah i was talkin about a yagamaki,excuse my japanese termanoligy.Can I ask you?Do you agree with antonys findings on the shinobi no mono?..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Yes,understand what ur saying,but the argument was that,lets call it mr hayes sword has been proven to be false because it was most prob a short katana with large handle and round tsuba and norm size saya,but now were finding it was closer to mr hayes sword than we thought.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 not at all thats not the argument. Antony said he had found the iconic ninja sword attributed to Mr Hayes in history. Now the argument being put forth by antony is that those not agreeing with him are arguing on semantics, that straighter isnt straight etc, but when you are talkign about japanese blades 1 or 5 or 15mm sori still indicates a curve, and a chokuto , which is what the form of the iconic sword was very specific in is place in history
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 also no one contested the existence of nagamaki naoshi , or even the appearance of curved swords , some with square tuba , some with round some with mokko in japanese books prior to Mr Hayes, most of us arguing here have all those books by fujita or nawa or Hatsumi sensei or access to copies, some of us own japanese swords. The problem is that antony still does not see that finding a sword with a shallow sori does not mean you found a chukoto chisel tip 'ninja'blade.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
so when you talk of str4aight what you mean is curved , is that what you are saying, straight means staright, a few mm of sori on the muni side equates to a curve, both on the mune/shinogi and at the ha , cutting edge. that means its not straight, does it not. The argument was that the 'straight' ninja sword attributed to Mr Hayes had been found, it was specifically straight , not curved , not even a few mm , it was straight with a straight blade shape in the form of a chokuto
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
a straight sword with a few mm curve is not a straight sword, and yes in japanese blades it matters a lot. The'iconic' ninja sword that is attributed in this argument to Mr Hayes , and if you dont believe me on its form have a check in the magazines, was a chukuto form , i.e. a staright blade form , that has not been demonstrated. you are saying you have found a straight sword, the swords such as the nagamaki naoshi and the ones in Hatsumi senseis books that are shown all have a curve. yes or no
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
Im not saying a paul chen type ninjato existed,but a straight sword with a few mill curve and a square is type tsuba did exsist and were sometimes used.This is what ive found and antony is getting close to..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
When i talk of straight i mean straight ish,come on a few mills doe'nt make it cuved,its still straight ish lets not split hairs here.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@hj firestarter,yeah mate-SLIGHT curve,maybe 1-2mm.The cheness has a round tsuba?The one hatsumi has is square,come on its square!Not totaly square but its square not round.Thanks for replyin nicely unlike toth boy.Im not attackin just truth finding.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
It was'nt a staight double edge spear but a slightly curved one edged spear.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 a nagamaki or naganata is not a spear , a yari is a spear , the terms attributed to them are different, their form is different , their use is different. they are different. what antony presented was a nagamaki naoshi, the book did not state a spear/yari was 'cut down' it stated a nagamaki was 'properly reshaped' into a katana or wakazashi.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 no such thing as a slightly curved one edge spear(yari)
toth2173 1 year ago
again like I said what you think was straight was not if they used a spear and made a sword then it would be straight but it woud be double edged why whould you grind of the the ha on a spear to make a single edged blade ,the naginata was changed to use as katana as well as tachi they would have never been turned straight so whatever your babble about a 1-3 mm sori is BS
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth,Stay upwind?If ur trying to say something just say it..Be a man.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Straight bladed swords are in history around the shinobi era,they were not called ninja swords but used now and again by ninja.Thats what i and Antony seem to think.You agree?Cause Hatsumi does'nt.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
yes your saying stay up wind from you
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth,You tellin me hatsumi agrees there was straight bladed,square tsube swords shinobi used but they wer'nt called ninja-to?So u are a bujinkan member i take it by not answering.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@toth,Spider boy?Is that cheek?So hayes says yes straight sword square tsuba,proof says yes,hatsumi says no then is photographed holding one!!Get my drift?.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@toth,Bujinkan.Spellin mistake!Childish pal.So ur checkin my spelling but not answering my question?.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 spider boy He denies ninjatou the term ,not the sword ,ninjatou is just a term used by japanese from noh theater to emphisize the shinobi thus commonly used
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth If ur following it all then perhaps you can tell me why hatsumi is in photos holding the sword he denies existed?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@toth I'll bet ur a bujikan member.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 whats a bujikan
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth,Just because you dont agree with what i say does'nt mean what i say is'nt true.Im following it in various ways inc u tube.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
if your just following this on you boob your not following this in it's entirety
toth2173 1 year ago
@toth,waitin?What was his one word answer?Ive spoken to him and he would rather not answer or get involved really cause he does'nt want to disrespect his teacher.He trained with both,meaning hatsumi has used straight,square tsuba ninja-to.
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
Toth-Oh ive been following it mate,but must've missed that.What was his answer then?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 well you won't find it here
toth2173 1 year ago
Would it not be a good idea to ask stephen hayes if he was trained by hatsumi with a straight,or next to straight ninja-to with a square tsuba or with a more curved version with a round tsuba that hatsumi uses today?
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 apperantly you have not been following this Hayes has commented on this already
toth2173 1 year ago
Good work Anthony.All lies lead back to Hatsumi,check out Andrew adams book Ninja the invisibe assasins Page 151.Hes standing there in close up with his ninja-to,the one he denies that existed,straight blade,square tsuba..
MrMmafan111 1 year ago
@MrMmafan111 I have my copy of "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins" right in front of me. Upon a closer look, the shinobigatana that Hatsumi Sensei is holding has a slight curvature to the blade, and the tsuba is in the mokko tsuba style. A modern equivalent would be the Cheness Oniyuri. Definitely not the stereotypical ninja-to.
hgfirestarter2k3 1 year ago