Peace Between Zionists & Anti-Zionists

[nissimgaga]

Thous who blesses Israel will be blessed......Make a peace with Israel today Idiots , that is what GOD WANTS! before its to late.

[FunLovingCriminals77]

you look kinda like gene simmons

[smartwarlord]

Hitler was an Anti-Zionist - why would anyone wish to be like Hitler Y"S?

[SirDavidTank]

@smartwarlord you are an idiot

[voncello]

Due to the fact that Titoscudd said supporters of Israel should not expect "any sympathy or a listening ear" from supporters of the Palestinians, I have blocked him from posting to this page. This video was made as a way to demonstrate a path to peace between these peoples. I am open to questions or comments intended to aid in that process. Once one argues that there should be no sympathy and even no listening to the other side he has shown himself to be a warrior. This page is for peacemakers.

[ebb1501]

@voncello Well said Voncello.

[Titoscudd]

There is a legal maxim that "He who would approach the throne of equity must do so with clean hands". And if you espouse colonial arguments and subscribe to European colonial mentality that denies the rights of indigenous people and has resulted in their abuse and decimation, then, I don't see how you can expect these same people to lend you any sympathy and a listening ear. And that colonial mentality is what informed and still informs the actions of the Zionists, Europe and America.

[voncello]

@Titoscudd To the exact contrary, you are on the side of the Arab colonialists who took over the Jewish lands. And don't try to deny that the Arabs didn't know these were Jewish lands. They were Muslims and Muslims know about the Bible. Therefore they know that the same God that they call Allah gave the land of Israel to the Jews in an "everlasting covenant". Whether or not you believe this, the fact remains that they knew these lands were Jewish yet they colonized it and built on sacred sites.

[voncello]

@Tito The bottom line is this: you have just proven why peace is so difficult. You have shown yourself to not only show not a shred of understanding or sympathy with the Jews, but you have said that I should not expect "any sympathy or a listening ear". So essentially your message is this must end in a bloody war with one side achieving total victory and the other decimation. I hope you are wrong. I hope there are reasonable people who can rise above such narrow selfish thinking and make peace!

[Titoscudd]

And why is that a convenient position for you to take? Well, because, it doesn't require any sacrifice on your part and allows you to legitimize the spoils of your ancestor's depredations.

You sound very much like the European colonialists who always urged Africans to stop agitating for independence as majority rule and integration would happen "gradually" and "in time".

The same UN that recognizes Israel is guided by international law and it says that land may not be acquired by conquest.

[voncello]

@Titoscudd Israel was not acquired by conquest... unless you are talking about the Arab conquests! Yes, after the Roman conquest that evicted the Jews, the Arabs conquered the land through war. But the return of the Jews to power was the most legitimate in history, they returned by a VOTE in the United Nations. The majority of the nations of the world voted for this! You sound like the European colonialists who to this day support the descendants of Arab conquerors over the indigenous Jews.

[Titoscudd]

In fact, I must say that you're just the quintessential European colonialist pretending to be a peace maker because, the fundamental premise of your arguments centres on that colonial mentality. And you know what? It's always interesting to hear the descendants of perpetrators of wickedness make statements akin to "That's in the past, get over it!! Move on!!" Which translates into accept the status quo, inequitable though it may be, forget your history and pretend like it never happened.

[voncello]

@Tito I could say the same of you. You want to perpetuate the wickedness against the Jews who even genetic testing has proven are a people from the middle east, who were forced by real colonialists (Romans) from their homeland of over 1000 years, who were mistreated for millennia by the descendants of those colonialists, and are now being mistreated by the likes of you for returning to their homeland. You are the one telling Jews "That's in the past, get over it!!" But the hatred still lives.

[Titoscudd]

Moreover, have you heard of the Haavara agreement? Who were the signatories to that agreement? Were they not Nazis and Jews? And what were the terms of that agreement? Weren't there Jews among the highest echelons of the Nazi party and even among German scientists?

Another question is, did Avraham Stern of the Stern Gang, and Yitzak Shamir not offer to lend their forces in support of the Nazi effort to attack Britain? If the Nazis were so abhorrent, why then would Shamir and Stern do this?

[voncello]

@Titoscudd So you are saying that the Nazis were not "abhorrent"? You are looking for any minor incident in history that you can grab on to to demean the Jews. In this case there were agreements to move Jews out of Germany. Those who did leave survived. Those who did not were all wiped out in concentration camps. Yet you are acting like the Jews were in cahoots with the Nazis because they made agreements before WWII to help Jews leave. Bizarre is not a strong enough word for your thinking.

[Titoscudd]

You see, your arguments smack of typical European colonial mentality which says that, because a people didn't have a govt or system similar to what obtained in Europe, they therefore, don't have the right to ownership of their ancestral lands. And that is pure nonsense!

All African countries that exist today weren't there before. Does that mean that the indigenous people hadn't a right to their own ancestral lands?

[voncello]

@Tito The Jews are the indigenous people of Israel and most of the world knows it, even those who try to deny this with fake claims of European colonialism. The Jews are triple victims. First they were victims of Europeans (Romans) who committed mass murder against them and evicted them from their land. Then they were victims of Europeans who persecuted them for centuries and never accepted them as Europeans. And now they are victims of folks like you who say they are European colonialists!

[Titoscudd]

You see, I'm sorry to say, but, even the way you've presented your narratives tells me what side you're on. In Africa, MOST nations are predominantly or all Black. Does it therefore mean that Europe can take over an entire African nation and resettle the original inhabitants in another African nation simply because they're all Black? Do you realize how traumatic that would be?

[voncello]

@Titoscudd Your premise is wrong. Europeans didn't come from Africa (at least not in historical times), they never had a kingdom there (the Jews had a kingdom in Israel for 1500 years), they never maintained a presence there (there were always Jews in Israel and they were a substantial minority even pre-modern Israel). The Europeans were never kicked from country to country in a land that never accepted them (as the Jews were in Europe) nor did they have a Holocaust perpetrated against them.

[raishone]

You provided a sympathetic and lengthy description of the Zionist narrative. You then offered a few sentences which were 'representative' of the Anti-Zionist narrative, immediately followed by all the 'reasons' this thinking was flawed. This doesn't sound like the path of peace to me...

[voncello]

@raishone My main point is that there are two narratives that conflict and the first step is for both sides to understand the other narrative and sympathize, which I think I did. The next step is for each side to explain what it sees as the flaws in the other narrative and to explain why their narrative, or parts of it are more deserving of consideration. I didn't say one has to buy both narratives equally as that would lead to a stalemate. What do you see as the path to peace if not this?

[sunset261]

7:09 I didn't like the idea of israel being created in the beginning because it forced the arabs out of their homes, but completely agree that it would be very hypocritical to say that the jews in Israel should just go away now. The solution to zionism vs antizionism is to realize that there is no easy solution. I think one thing that could solve it would be for islamic culture in the middle east to become more tolerant of other religions but we all know that that's not happening anytime soon.

[voncello]

@sunset261 The creation of Israel did not force Arabs out of their homes any more than the creation of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and all the other countries England carved out of the Ottoman Empire. You said Islamic culture is intolerant of other religions. That is the root of the problem. The Arabs in Jordan accepted being ruled in a dictatorship by a Saudi King but the Arabs chose to attack the Jews due to their intolerance. This is why Arabs lost their homes. And this intolerance remains.

[The213momadzahi]

@sunset261 its not about relegion its about the land, jews and muslims get along,the media portrays it as a relegious conflict but the arabs deserve to live on THEIR land. thats like someone kicking you out of your house and saying i live here now. its not fair thats it. and voncello dont even start judging islam and calling it "intolerant" its the most peaceful relegion if you stopped believing what the media shows it as, your ignorant

[sunset261]

@The213momadzahi The jews had nowhere to go, everywhere they went they were persecuted. Besides,it's the same way most of the countries in the world were formed. Should the U.S. give the land back to the native americans? If we kicked the jews out now then it would forcing THEM out of THEIR homes. The best solution now is to try to make peace between palestine and israel. BTW If you think islam is the most peaceful religion, you are delusional.

[voncello]

@sunset It's comical how some Muslims keep saying Islam is the most peaceful religion in the world. I never hear Quakers say that about their religion yet they will allow themselves to be killed rather than fight! / A pretty girl doesn't have to go around telling everyone she is pretty. It is obvious. If momadzahl is peaceful why did he insult me as delusional? His intolerance of the Jewish rights to Israel is also not peaceful. He said it's not about religion, yet he aggressively defended his!

[voncello]

@The213momadzahi You claim your religion is the "most peaceful religion". Have you heard of the Quakers? They will allow themselves to be killed (following Jesus' example) rather than fight. Is Islam more peaceful than that? Also if this conflict is not about religion why are you so quick to defend your religion? And if you are peaceful, why did you insult me? Is this how a representative of the most peaceful religion acts? And if Islam is not intolerant why can't you tolerate a Jewish country?

[The213momadzahi]

@voncello hmmm....FUNNY HOW IM NOT A MUSLIM! HAHA WTF ARE YOU EVEN SAYING? VONCELLO GO GET AN EDUCATION PLEASE YOUR EMBARRASSING YOURSELF BECAUSE THIS WAR ISNT EVEN ABOUT RELEGION

[voncello]

@momadzahi You say on your page "ILL BE HONEST AND SAY I HAVE MUSLIM BELIEFS, BUT CANT BE CALLED A MUSLIM." So call yourself what you want, but you admit that you have Muslim beliefs. What are those beliefs? Do you believe that those who insult Mohammed should be killed? Do you believe that women must be covered from head to toe? Do you believe that the Muslims are destined to take over the world? Those are all Muslim beliefs. I'm not trying to fight but to understand where you are coming from.

[The213momadzahi]

@voncello like right now the media says muslims want to make a church (masjid) near where 9/11 happened, the funny thing is they wanted to make that masjid 4 years before 9/11 happened and now the media is making ppl think they "all of a sudden" decided to make it there. all im saying is stop listening to the media about it go read it for yourself just skip the prayer parts its easy.the media also said that the 9/11 bombers were alive. 10 had died before 9/11 even happened look it up

[voncello]

@The213 We know governments lie. I don't get all my information from the media. I've actually read the Koran and many Hadiths. There are also many Muslim websites which that say that Islam's goal is to conquer the world and that peace will only come when the whole world submits to Sharia law. Do you deny this? So for this reason many Americans are weary of this "religion" and do not want it to be able to claim 9/11 as a victory with a mosque nearby. Some Muslims don't think this way but some do.

[The213momadzahi]

@voncello it didnt say kill the non believers, so im done with this, my point is dont say extremists are muslim, because their making the rules of the quran stricter, so basically they dont believe in islam, they should have a name for their jihadi suicidal relegion because its not muslim. we might as well call them satanists im done with this have a nice life

[voncello]

@The213momadzahi I don't want to fight and I am not trying to be mean or rude but doesn't the Koran say, "When you meet the unbelievers in jihad, chop off their heads.." (Koran, 47:4) There are many similar passages. I agree that there are Muslims who don't believe in this but there are others who do. You call them extremists but they would call you an apostate. The problem is that the Koran says these things to begin with. I hope peaceful people like you will prevail but only time will tell.

[voncello]

@The213momadzahi You responded to my profile. Please respond to this page since we can't have a dialogue on my home page. You said your Muslim belief is to not eat pork. But you didn't answer my specifice questions. I'll just ask you to respond to one: Do you believe that those who insult Mohammed should be liable to the death penalty? And if not, should people around the world be able to insult Mohammed just as they are allowed to insult Moses and Jesus without fear of violence?

[The213momadzahi]

@voncello the quran said those that insult mohammed, God will deal with hin=m, iy never said kill those that insult mohammed or islam, like i said, dont judge islam on what extremists say it says, thats like asking a murederer is it okay to kill ppl. if you havent read the quran to know what it really states instead of hearing it from other ppl, you would know this.im saying stop being ignorant and hearing about it instead of actually knowing.

[voncello]

@The213momadzahi "When author Salman Rushdie published "The Satanic Verses," a 1988 novel deemed offensive to Muhammad, the Ayatollah Khomeini pronounced a death sentence that was supported by a majority of Muslims." Are you saying that Khomeini didn't understand Islam? There are many other cases of fatwas against those who criticize and people have been killed like Theo Van Gogh. Just yesterday the Taliban stoned a couple to death for making love. Do they also misunderstand Islam? Just asking.

[The213momadzahi]

@voncello man i dont wanna ruin your comment page this is my last comment, i told you they were planning to build that mosque 4 YEARS before 9/11 so its not a "victory" they planned to make it before 9/11. the gov. just let them build it now to make ppl think muslims are doing it on purpose but look it up. and those "muslim websites" are made by EXTREMISTS. i told you dont believe what extremists say. and if you really read the quran, youd be agreeing with me right now. have a good life man

[voncello]

@The213momadzahi Feel free to comment as much as you want. I agree that not all Muslims are extremists but I have read the Koran and seen things like: O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers... and be merciless against them. (Koran, 9:73) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere. 8:39. I mean no disrespect but it's hard to call this a peaceful religion. Yet I know not all Muslims take it literally.

[eartina]

IDF Official Says Hamas Did Not Fire Rocket That 'Justified' Israeli Air Strikes Across Gaza

Tuesday, 03 August 2010 07:31

[voncello]

@eartina This kind of comment goes against what I said is necessary to bring peace. It merely takes one comment made by one person about one incident out of context and seeks to smear one side. I hope we can move beyond smear tactics soon.